1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: Friends Media. You are right now, Katie is looking at 3 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: a painting. Katie, can you tell me what you see? 4 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: So there's a naked white woman on a bed, she 5 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 2: has her shoes on in the bed trifling, and there's 6 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: a black woman behind her who's fully closed and holding 7 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 2: a bouquet of flowers. The white woman's gaze is directly 8 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 2: at you, the person watching the painting, but the black 9 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: woman is looking at the white lady. 10 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: So have you seen this painting before? 11 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 2: Okay, you've never seen this from. 12 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: Well, so you know it's Olympia and it's by the 13 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: French painter Edouard Money. And it's been a while, but 14 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: I have seen this painting in person. So I love 15 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: seeing paintings from all different periods and styles, including oil 16 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: paintings in the realist style like Olympia is. But when 17 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: there's a black person in an oil Europeans painting, then 18 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: I linger a little bit longer. When I'm in museums, 19 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: I wonder who they were. I wonder what the artist's 20 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: relationship with them was. I wonder if they were real 21 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: or imagined, or if the character is a composite person. 22 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: I wonder how black people lived in whatever setting they 23 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: were in. 24 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes sense to linger on those paintings a 25 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: little bit more because they're far less black people in 26 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 2: white Europeans paintings. 27 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. So like when they do show up, I got questions, 28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: And a lot of times they are like just in 29 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: the background. They're basically shadows or servants. Sometimes there are 30 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: the subject of portraits, though they might look at you 31 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: longingly or thoughtfully, or with some expression that you just 32 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: can't put your finger on. But however they show up, 33 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: I wonder what their story is, who's the model for 34 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: the black person and the painting. Fortunately, plenty of folks 35 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: who do this kind of research for a living wanted 36 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: to go down that exact rabbit hole. So today we're 37 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: going on a little journey through these art models' lives 38 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: just to get to know a little more about a 39 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: few of the women who have gone unnamed on wall 40 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: text and overlooked in art scholarship. I'm Katie and I'm Eves, 41 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: and today we're training our eye on the Black muse. 42 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: The black woman that you described in that painting Olympia 43 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: is named Lore. She's tending to Olympia. In the painting, 44 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: Olympia is a sex worker. That's why she's nude on 45 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: the bed. Why she got shoes on the bed that 46 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, no manner I mean also may have 47 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: something to do with class, like showing, oh, I can 48 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: you know? This is what I do in my bed. 49 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: I keep my shoes on. I always got to be prepared, 50 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: So I'm not sure about that. But lour is Olympia's servant, 51 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: and in the book Posing Modernity, the curator doctor Denise 52 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: Morrell points out how scholars really didn't talk about what 53 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: Laura's presence in the painting means. But Laura also shows 54 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: up in Maynee's eighteen sixty one and eighteen sixty two 55 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: painting Children in the Tuilerie Gardens, and Laura is also 56 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: the subject of a portrait Maynee painted the same year 57 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: that he created Olympia. Katie here is Children in the 58 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: Tuilerie Gardens and the portrait of Lore. Do you notice 59 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: any differences between the two? 60 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: So in the gardens painting, she's off to the side, 61 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: like if you crop this, she would definitely get cut out, 62 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: and it seems like she's tending to some white child. 63 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: And then in the portrait you see her. She has 64 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: on nice clothes, little chain, little hair wrap, little ear rings. 65 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: You know, got a little mona. Lisa smiles moment going. 66 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: So what do you notice about the difference between Low 67 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: herself in the two images. 68 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: In the Garden's image, her clothing is depicting that of 69 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: a servant. And also she has no face. 70 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: Yes, so Children in the Tuilerie Gardens was painted before 71 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: the portrait. So as you mentioned, just now, Katie in Children, 72 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: she doesn't have a face. She has a head wrap on. 73 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: You can kind of see the abstracted forms of what 74 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: she's wearing all of the well, a lot of the 75 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: other people in the painting are like that as well. 76 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: When she's in this nature setting. But like you said, 77 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: she is kind of on the margins here, and in 78 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: the portrait she's right in the center. Her gaze is 79 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: off center, but she is the focus of the portrait. 80 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: So it's almost like from Children to the portrait, Lore 81 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: came to life. Manee wrote in his notebook that Laura 82 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: was a very beautiful black woman, but of course Lore 83 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: was more than just her appearance. Slavery was abolished in 84 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,239 Speaker 1: French territories in eighteen forty eight. Now, look, that wasn't 85 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: the first time that slavery was abolished in the French territories, 86 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: and later on you'll hear me talk about it being 87 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: abolished at different times. But don't be confused. This is 88 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: one time that slavery was abolished in French territories and 89 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: because of that, the lore that's in these paintings was 90 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: a free black woman. She lived at eleven Rue Vontemiel 91 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: in Paris, not too far from Manet studio. There was 92 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: a small but growing community of free black folks in 93 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: her part of the city, which was on the north side. 94 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: And it's great that we know her name and where 95 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: she lived, but there isn't a lot of information about 96 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: her life outside of those details. But we do know 97 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: a little bit more about Fanny Eaton. More on this 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: muse after the break. 99 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: So Fanny Eaton, where would I have seen her? 100 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: You might have seen her in paintings by Dante, Gabrielle Rosetti, 101 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: Rebecca Solomon, Simeon Solomon, and Johanna mary Wells. She was 102 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: the muse for a lot of pre Raphaelite artists. Here's 103 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: a side view of Fanny Katie shown in the painting 104 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: Head of a Mulatta Woman by Joanna mary Wells. How 105 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: does Fanny look to you? She cute? 106 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 2: She cute. You know, she got a nice little shawl on, 107 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 2: a nice little I would say, see through shawl, nice 108 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 2: little pearl ear rings. You know, her gaze is like downcast. 109 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: Maybe she's very pensive in this moment, but you know 110 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 2: she's taking it. 111 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the background of this is like pretty somber looking, 112 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: as like a gray greenish brown situation. But it doesn't 113 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: really come off as sad to me. It just comes 114 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: off as like a little ritzy. I think, you know, 115 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: the outfit she's wearing, it's giving chaffon or silk or 116 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: something like that. And yeah, she looks like she is 117 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: well off, she's well stationed in life. It's what she 118 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: looks like in this painting. So Fanny, though, was born 119 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: in Jamaica in eighteen thirty five, and her mother was 120 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: probably born in a slavery and her doubts probably a 121 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: white man, but there are a lot of questions around 122 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: her actual ancestry. But either way, Fanny and her mother 123 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: probably made their way to England in the eighteen forties 124 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: and by the time Fanny was sixteen, she was working 125 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: as a servant in London. She married a coach driver 126 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: named James Eaton, and the two of them had ten 127 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: children together over the course of twenty years. Ten kids. 128 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 2: So she went from being a servant to having ten 129 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: kids to modeling. 130 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I have It's a path, isn't it. She started 131 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 1: working as a model at the Royal Academy of Arts, 132 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: which is an institution in London. I can say that 133 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: I don't know how she got that job and why 134 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: she chose it is pretty unclear, but what is clear 135 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: is that she had a bunch of kids, so I'm 136 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: sure the money that they needed to support them it 137 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: had to come from somewhere. I don't know how much 138 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: James Eaton was getting, but I would imagine for ten kids, 139 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: you know, she had them over time, so I'm sure 140 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: that the money that she got from her work as 141 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: a model was a great help to her family. So 142 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: the British artist Simeon Solomon was the first known artist 143 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: to draw studies of Fanny. Her first appearance as an 144 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: art model in public was in Simeon Solomon's painting The 145 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: Mother of Moses. In that painting debut in eighteen sixty 146 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: at a Royal Academy exhibition. But the whole thing about 147 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: Fanny and her being amused was that she had light 148 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: skin in this racial ambiguity, and that made her like 149 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: a good muse in the pre laphylite artist's eyes, because 150 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: that meant that she could portray a bunch of different 151 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: figures from the Bible, and that was a rare role 152 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: for black women in Victorian art. In that kind of art, 153 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: they weren't usually models that fit into white standards of beauty. 154 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: They were, you know, othered, and they were there for 155 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: decor ration, often for contrasts and for a scene setting. 156 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: In July of eighteen sixty, Fanny was paid fifteen shillings 157 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: each for three sittings that she did at the Royal Academy, 158 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,599 Speaker 1: so you get an idea of how much she was 159 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: paid for her work. But she stopped modeling sometime in 160 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies, and nobody knows why, but one of 161 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: her daughters may have fallen in her footsteps and become 162 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: an art model. And at some point Fanny's husband died 163 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: and Fanny started working as a seamstress and moved to 164 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: the Isle of White to do domestic work for a family. 165 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: So as you can see, there are a lot of 166 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: gaps in her story, as there are for a lot 167 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: of black and mixed race women in the past. But 168 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: there is a little bit we know about her in 169 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: any amount, any measure that we can uncover. I think 170 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: it's worthwhile talking about. 171 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, looking at her, I wouldn't think she was black. 172 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 2: But it's interesting too because I don't know how race 173 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 2: was perceived back then in that part of the world. 174 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: So do you think people saw her as a black woman, 175 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: as a mixed race? Was she like low key passing 176 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 2: in some of these modeling instances? 177 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: So I think people saw her as a black woman. 178 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: They saw her as having dark skin, So I know, 179 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: right the bar is somewhere, but yeah, they saw her 180 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: as dark skin. So I'm going to show you this 181 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: picture of Fanny Eaton, is a sketch of her that 182 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: looks a little different than the picture that we were 183 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: talking about just now, the portrait where she's got that 184 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: nice shawl on and the nice pearl earrings on. So 185 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: looking at this sketch of Fanny Eaton, what do you see? 186 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: And then after you tell me what you see, we'll 187 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: talk about if you feel any differently. 188 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 2: So in this picture she's also looking off to the side. 189 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 2: Her hair is more visible, like the texture of it, 190 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,479 Speaker 2: more coarse. She still has on nice clothes and jewelry, 191 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: and her skin is still light in this picture. But yeah, 192 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 2: I can see her being racialized. It's on her hair. 193 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I don't know how much maneuvering there really 194 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: was back then, as like in comparison to the kind 195 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: of colorism that we have today where we really be 196 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: breaking it down. But if I were to see the 197 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: portrait of Fanny eaton that side view ahead of a 198 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: Mulata woman, I wouldn't immediately say, oh, she's definitely black, 199 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: But once reading into it a little bit more, I 200 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: think I would say I would see like the hair 201 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: texture around the edges of her hair and think that 202 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: she was okay. But there were people, even the artists 203 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: who painted her, who kind of didn't really understand what 204 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: her racial mixture was either, because there was one of 205 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: the artists, Rosetti, who said to someone else that, oh, 206 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: she's not a Hindu, she's a Mulato. And in other 207 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: episodes of this podcast, we've kind of talked about how 208 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,719 Speaker 1: black people did past and when the orientalism was jumping out. 209 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: Black people would pass for what they would call Hindus, 210 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: or they would say that they were Indian and things 211 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: like that. But we don't have any document of what 212 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: Fanny Eaton herself said or how she thought about her race. 213 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: There's a lot of information that's missing, and I don't 214 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: want to speculate around it, but there is no evidence 215 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: that I saw that she denied her race or anything 216 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: like that. So people would just say things about her 217 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: appearance and that how they liked it. Like somebody says 218 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: she had a very fine head and figure, which sounds 219 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: very objectifying, But I mean, I guess that's what you're 220 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: doing there, the object of your painting. Yeah, but I 221 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: do think that takes on another level when you're talking 222 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: about black people and that's what you're gazing at. 223 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 2: And I guess if she was like the stand in 224 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: for all these other figures, like maybe she had their 225 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: proportions or something that fit well into what they're trying 226 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: to get. 227 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, after the break, we have another black muse. 228 00:12:50,240 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: Stay tuned, So Fanny Eaton lore. There are a couple 229 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 2: of black muses whose stories we know a little bit about. 230 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 2: I imagine there are some that have been lost to time, though. 231 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are plenty of unnamed black women in white artists' 232 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: nineteenth century paintings, and a lot of the time their 233 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: names remain buried. There are no records of who they were, 234 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: and anything that they may have written about their time 235 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: as models has disappeared or never existed in the first place. 236 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: And that was the case for this painting by Marie Guillamine. 237 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: Benoit ben Wah was a French neoclassical painter. In eighteen hundred, 238 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: she created portrait do negress Or, a portrait of a 239 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: black woman. Ben Wah never took note of her model's name. Katie, 240 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: tell me what you see in this portrait? 241 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 2: So I see a black woman sitting down. She also 242 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 2: has on a head wrap, earrings, a white dress, and 243 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: one of her breasts are exposed. 244 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: And how do you feel when you're looking at her expression? 245 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: What do you feel like she's saying through her expression? 246 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 2: I mean in the American context, but this is French. 247 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 2: But if I was looking at it and thinking she 248 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 2: was American, I think she would be saying something about 249 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: like servitude and like still being seen as an object 250 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 2: for like maybe like breastfeeding babies that aren't hers, but 251 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 2: trying to get up out of that situation and move 252 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: on to a different like station in life. That's what 253 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: I would think in my American centric. 254 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So in the painting, 255 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: she is wearing red, white, and blue, which, yes, from 256 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: an American perspective, I think of the American flag, but 257 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: in this case it has been perceived as a reference 258 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: to the French flag. So it may be a symbol 259 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: of the freedom that formerly enslaved people had in the country, 260 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: because slavery was abolished in French territories in seventeen ninety four. 261 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: Plus the French Revolution had just ended in seventeen ninety nine, 262 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: so this painting could have been a nod to liberty. 263 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: You were talking about it too, if you were looking 264 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: at it from an American perspective, because you know, we 265 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: still know around the time period this was slavery may 266 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: come up in our mind. She's not fully clothed, so 267 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: there is the idea of like moving on from liberty 268 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: or thinking about what ways you're confined in your life 269 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: if you're thinking about slavery. So even you, you know, 270 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: from an American perspective, in twenty twenty four. It made 271 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: that link between the two, and that is a perspective 272 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: that some people took on the meaning of this painting. 273 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: But in eighteen oh two, a Napoleon Bonaparte said, just kidding, 274 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: run that back, and he reinstated at slavery. So this 275 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: could also be perceived to be about slavery's return, because 276 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: this painting, to remind you was done in eighteen hundred, 277 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: so it was just two years later when slavery returned. So, 278 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: like you said, her breast is uncovered, and in eighteen 279 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: hundred this was considered pretty inappropriate. But Benoi I could 280 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: have done that as an allusion to how black folks 281 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: were inspected at slave markets. But either way, some critics 282 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: at the time were offended by her nudity. Some didn't 283 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: like how her skim, they didn't like that the image 284 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: had hints of eroticism. But folks weren't really worried about 285 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: who she was back in eighteen hundred. They were just 286 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: worried about the fact that she was black and how 287 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: that affected the art. One critic name Jean Baptiste Bouttard said, 288 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: whom can one trust in life after such horror? It 289 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: is a white and pretty hand which has created this blackness. 290 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: So he's talking about how offended he is by this painting. 291 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: There's like this contrast between the subject of purity and 292 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: liberty and the delicate nature of her draped clothing, and 293 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: that didn't go with the ways that white folks viewed 294 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: black skin as horrifying and ugly. So in this case, 295 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: her skin's pretty dark, so unlike Fanny Eaton, who was 296 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: light skinned, there is not really any ambiguity around what 297 00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: her background is. So people were clearly jumping in on 298 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: that and the criticism that they had. They really couldn't 299 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: take the skin, the fact that her skin was dark. 300 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: They thought it was an affront to the whole artistic medium, 301 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: to the esthetic, to the industry, because this white woman 302 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: was painting this dark skin, especially within this context, and 303 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: it hazard to say somebody of her skin tone wouldn't 304 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: be considered a person who could go between different biblical 305 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: figures and create that ambiguity like Fanny Eaton would. So 306 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: if you had to guess, Katie, what do you think 307 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: this woman in the painting's name is? 308 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 2: I don't really know French names like that, so I'll 309 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 2: pick one that is not French. Okay, I will say Hagar, it. 310 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: Wasn't Hagar, good guess, but she no longer has to 311 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: be referred to in the title just as Negress, so 312 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: her name is Madeleine. Madeline might have been born into 313 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: slavery and Guadaloupe, and ben Wah's brother in law may 314 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,239 Speaker 1: have brought her to France after that, and if she 315 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: went there as a slave or a servant, I'm not 316 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: fully sure. Maybe she was freed in seventeen ninety four 317 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: when slavery was abolished in French colonies. But as you 318 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: can see, there are a lot of maybes in the 319 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: story that we do know about Madeline. This painting of 320 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: her is in the Louverus collection and on the museum site, 321 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: the painting is actually titled Portrait June femme noir, not Negress. 322 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: It seems like negress and it was still kind of 323 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: a diminutive, derogatory term even in the French language. When 324 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: you go back and read old sources, even American ones, 325 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: and they're talking about black women, they often use the 326 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: term negress. In an American English context, I feel like 327 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: it can kind of sound a little bit more uppny, so, 328 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: but yeah, I think it is interesting though, to see 329 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: the people that we talked about today are just a 330 00:18:58,160 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: few of all of the muses, and there are so 331 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: many who weren't named. And of course there were muses, 332 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: there were a lot of them who were women, but 333 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: there were also people who were sitters for a lot 334 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: of portraits who were black men. And these kinds of 335 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: people have been the objects of artists I over the years. 336 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: It's interesting because you know, the word muse kind of 337 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,959 Speaker 1: has this connotation of uplifting and there's someone who I admire, 338 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: there's someone who I have a lot of affection for potentially, 339 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: or that I have stuff to learn from it. It's really, 340 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: I feel like a glowing word. And these models were 341 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: the inspiration for the artists. But at the same time, 342 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: there was still a hierarchy, like there was still a 343 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: difference of authority between the artists and the sitter. They 344 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: are still the ones that are working for money. And 345 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: we talked about how Fanny Eaton looks pretty upstanding and 346 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: classy in her picture. She has on the per earrings 347 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: and she has on the iridescent shawl, and then also madeleine. 348 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: She is kind of draped in clothing that wouldn't necessarily 349 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: be working class. But these women were working class, like 350 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: ten children making fifteen shillings for three each for three sittings. 351 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: They had husbands, they had to go back home at 352 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: the end of the day. They changed their professions in 353 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: some cases because for what reasons we don't know, but 354 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: they were still inferior to the artists who were creating 355 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: the work and obviously to a lot of people who 356 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: were viewing the work. And I've seen some sources that 357 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: talk about Madeleines placed in the halls, all next to 358 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: all the other images, maybe on whatever floor it was 359 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: on in the Louvra and Madelines the only one with 360 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: dark skin, and definitely Scan that's that dark, So there 361 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: is this dark contrast. She immediately stands out. It's easy 362 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: to other. 363 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also like interesting to see how models are 364 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: different now, like as far as the stories they're telling. 365 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 2: I feel like models now aren't seen as inferior, especially 366 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 2: during like the supermodel age of like the nineties. I 367 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 2: feel like Madeline would have been that girl, like you 368 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 2: wouldn't have to go back home and work, and maybe 369 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: you take care of okays, maybe you have a nanny. 370 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 2: But it's interesting to see like how things are different, 371 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: and just like what it means to be a model, 372 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 2: and like what story you're telling through sitting there about yourself, 373 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 2: Like one is I'm working class and I need these shillings, 374 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 2: and the others I'm so beautiful and everyone should aspire 375 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: to look like me. 376 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: So live model drawing was an important part of the 377 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: foundational practice of some of those bougie artists who were 378 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: in Europe who were going to places like the Royal Academy, 379 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: and it was what they had to take as part 380 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: of their course work. So it was a kind of 381 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: a mundane job as opposed to something that was more 382 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: uplifted because you had these people who were supposed to 383 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: be turning into great artists and you were just a 384 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: person who's coming in to be the vessel kind of 385 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: for this amazing and enlightening work that they were going 386 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: to do. So yeah, back then, definitely different. One parallel though, 387 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: or kind of similarity that I see specifically with Fanny 388 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: Eaton story, is thinking about her ambiguity and how much 389 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: in media today, like in commercials, a lot of the time, 390 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: people will tend to have someone they'll fill their color 391 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: quota by bringing someone in who's ambiguous. It seems like 392 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: a lot of companies like to do that because these 393 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: people can fill whatever role they need, but they can 394 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: also not hear any backlash because they're like, oh, I 395 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: got this poc in. Yeah, So that wasn't necessarily their 396 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: aim back then, but in a way, yeah, they didn't 397 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: care about that. It just fulfilled their goals of being 398 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: preaphytes and painting in the way that they did. 399 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 2: Do you know how they found out Madeline's name? 400 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: I think it might have been doctor Denise Morrell who 401 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: dug that up, but I haven't seen the actual path 402 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: to how they found it, what they were digging through 403 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: to find her name. So I'm curious as to know 404 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: the answer to that question too, because that's always an 405 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: interesting part of the process. Maybe whatever they did to 406 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: find out what Madeleine's name was, people can use that 407 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: same course to find out what other art models' names 408 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: were in the past. 409 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 2: And now it's time for role credits, the segment where 410 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: we give credit to a person, place, or thing that 411 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: we've encountered during the week. Eve who are what would 412 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 2: you like to give credit to? 413 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: I would like to give credit to snacking. It's not 414 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: something that I do often. I don't really keep a 415 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,199 Speaker 1: lot of snacks around my house, but I feel like 416 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: I need to level my game up because every time 417 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: I do want to snag, even if it's not often, 418 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: I don't have one. So I'm going to give credit 419 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: to snacking. 420 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,719 Speaker 2: Okay, I feel like our credits are polar opposites. Okay, 421 00:23:54,920 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 2: tell me, I want to give credit to fasting and 422 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 2: not like fasting as like dieting, just like fasting from 423 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 2: something that you know is distracting you. Sometimes it is 424 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 2: just like food, but you know it could be social media, 425 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 2: it could be cussing, It could be like a lot 426 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: of things that you fast from, but just like to 427 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 2: get some like clarity and clear your mind. So total 428 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: opposites kind of I think I could be. And thanks 429 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 2: for listening, Thank ye y'all. 430 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: Bye. On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather 431 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves, Jeffco and 432 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. 433 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at on Theme Show. You can 434 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: also send us some email at Hello at on Theme 435 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: dot Show. Head to on Theme dot show to check 436 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: out the show notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 437 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen 438 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.