Speaker 1: I'm manny, and this is no such thing to show
Speaker 1: where were subtle r dumb arguments and yours by actually
Speaker 1: doing the research this week, where the hell is the
Speaker 1: damn ketchup? No, there's no no such thing.
Speaker 2: Touch, thank touch, thank.
Speaker 3: Touch Touch.
Speaker 1: This week is very kind of U you know, sitcom
Speaker 1: coded episode, very King of Queen's style. It's about, I think,
Speaker 1: a common trope that men can't find things, you know,
Speaker 1: in their own home, where presumably they would have some
Speaker 1: sense of where the condiments are, spices or other everyday items.
Speaker 1: Do you guys relate to this?
Speaker 4: Yes, but I will I'll add in a dandum here
Speaker 4: that like, I've only run into this when I've lived
Speaker 4: with my partner. So like before, when I lived by myself,
Speaker 4: it was fine because there's only so many places a
Speaker 4: thing could be. But these days, yeah, there's like a
Speaker 4: learning curve a little bit when you move in with
Speaker 4: someone who does things a little bit differently me.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm easy.
Speaker 4: I'll adapt to your style, but you know it might
Speaker 4: take me some time.
Speaker 5: Okay, So you're you're basically did you have this issue
Speaker 5: with roommates?
Speaker 6: Are there men that you lived with?
Speaker 4: Not that I can remember, no, but would you be
Speaker 4: sharing less of things? Yeah, that's what I really is about,
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 5: But you and your wife now have lived in two
Speaker 5: separate places where you both moved into these places together. Right,
Speaker 5: So yeah, to some degree, you're setting up these places collaboratively.
Speaker 5: It's not like she moved into your apartment.
Speaker 1: Yes, or you move We both went into these places.
Speaker 5: Okay, let's just remember that for later in the episode. Okay, Wait,
Speaker 5: what are certain things that you like are looking for
Speaker 5: that you can't find?
Speaker 6: Give us an example, you.
Speaker 4: Know what, it's really a problem when I'm putting stuff away,
Speaker 4: then I just put it to finding things, so I
Speaker 4: relate to unloading the dishwasher.
Speaker 6: You put things in the wrong spots, or I'll.
Speaker 4: Be like, where does this thing go? That I never
Speaker 4: fucking use? So can I be held accountable for not
Speaker 4: knowing where it goes? Sometimes I feel like I don't
Speaker 4: use the thing, you know, give me, cut me some slack.
Speaker 6: But so you don't cook as often?
Speaker 4: I mean yeah, not as often for sure. But she
Speaker 4: drinks a lot of coffee and tea and has all
Speaker 4: these like dow hickeys that I just never use.
Speaker 1: You don't know where to put feminine devices.
Speaker 4: Tea. Hey I didn't say it, but not not really
Speaker 4: in case you're listening to this, honey, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Mean I'm trying to think what specific things definitely, like
Speaker 1: I set it up, like spices and kind of small
Speaker 1: items that aren't in everyday use. It could be in
Speaker 1: one of two places and you know, maybe we have
Speaker 1: run out of the coriander, you know, outside of the kitchen.
Speaker 1: Other things like where a certain type of towel is
Speaker 1: or anything like that, or cleaning agents. Yeah, yeah, it'll
Speaker 1: be little things like that where it could be Okay,
Speaker 1: it could be in the bathroom under the sink. It
Speaker 1: could be in the kind of storage closet, it could
Speaker 1: be in the office closet. Like you know, there's you know,
Speaker 1: our apartments not that big, but there's just so there's
Speaker 1: like three or four places where everything is crammed in.
Speaker 1: And then because of that, it is kind of an
Speaker 1: ordeal if you have to like move things out of
Speaker 1: the way. So that's where I think maybe a lot
Speaker 1: of the frustration stems from where now it's like all
Speaker 1: right now I need to dig in here. That said,
Speaker 1: I think some OF's this tripe comes up in a
Speaker 1: way where it's like, well, maybe I'm asking where it
Speaker 1: is so we can get to the answer quicker than
Speaker 1: me digging around, maybe making a mess. And you know
Speaker 1: when again, when it's not an everyday use item, it
Speaker 1: might just be easier to have communication.
Speaker 4: But it's like asking my friend what time is the
Speaker 4: Lakers game versus googling it. Like if I'm right next
Speaker 4: to my friend, he might know the answer.
Speaker 5: Okay, But to stand out for the women in your
Speaker 5: life is kind of annoying. And we talk about this
Speaker 5: all the time when people ask you shit that they
Speaker 5: should know or they can google.
Speaker 1: Themselves, weaponize some competency.
Speaker 6: Yes, I've heard this term.
Speaker 5: Yes, So like if you, for example, Noah, You're like, dammit,
Speaker 5: I need some Lifesol wipes?
Speaker 6: Where do we put that?
Speaker 5: All right, this one time you're looking for it, you
Speaker 5: don't know. You know it could be in one of
Speaker 5: three places. You find them, use them, you put them back.
Speaker 5: Three months from now you're thinking about where the Lifesol
Speaker 5: wipes are? Does that stick in your brain?
Speaker 6: You now know?
Speaker 5: Okay, I've I've was looking for the Lefsol wipes at
Speaker 5: one time. I know it's in Yeah, i'mder the sink
Speaker 5: or do you are you like a goldfish?
Speaker 6: You got start over?
Speaker 5: You're like, I know it's in one of these three
Speaker 5: places I remember where if.
Speaker 1: Everything is in order, hopefully then I typically I think
Speaker 1: I do remember. That's okay, okay, But I think this
Speaker 1: is also where you know, you can easily get into
Speaker 1: a you know, teach a man to fish situation where okay,
Speaker 1: if I actually then go and get it myself, I
Speaker 1: will know, yes.
Speaker 6: Versus if you're told. If I'm told or you know,
Speaker 6: go get.
Speaker 1: It grabbing for you then given to me, then maybe
Speaker 1: I put them back, but not connecting the same way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, just to concede a little bit here. There are
Speaker 4: times when I'll get the answer and I think that
Speaker 4: makes me forget about where it was, Like my my
Speaker 4: problem that I was having was solved.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and so you don't even have to remember to.
Speaker 4: Go so like next time, I'm like, damn, I didn't
Speaker 4: ingest that answer.
Speaker 6: Yeah, in one air out the other.
Speaker 4: But I do think some you know, many times I
Speaker 4: think I like this, like we are remembering I think
Speaker 4: the times we ask where the thing goes, but of
Speaker 4: course you don't remember the times we don't ask. There
Speaker 4: are I know true. I know all the things you do,
Speaker 4: know where the bread is, where the cereal of the time,
Speaker 4: not asking where something goes. It's those moments where I
Speaker 4: don't know that are more memorable.
Speaker 5: I think, how long do you think you're going to
Speaker 5: need until you're able to not have to ask?
Speaker 6: Well, I just think you're ever reached that day? Or
Speaker 6: is it just like.
Speaker 1: Surely over time?
Speaker 6: But I guess some of it.
Speaker 4: I don't think about it as like an assignment that
Speaker 4: needs to.
Speaker 6: Be so it's not something you're striving towards.
Speaker 4: No, it's relatively not important in my life. Okay, other now,
Speaker 4: you know I do want to be helpful.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not so you're not embarrassed or like concerned
Speaker 5: that every once in a while you don't know where
Speaker 5: something goes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm confident enough in myself that I'm able to
Speaker 1: ask for help. Yeah, you know it's a man.
Speaker 6: You're confident enough of your man wife.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm able to say, babe, I need I need
Speaker 1: help right now? Where the hell is the catcher?
Speaker 6: Please?
Speaker 1: The eggs are getting cold, crying the eggs get it's
Speaker 1: been six hours.
Speaker 6: What the help?
Speaker 1: I've looked everywhere?
Speaker 5: You know, I'm an investigative journalists here on the pod.
Speaker 5: So I didn't want to just take what both Menny
Speaker 5: and Noah said about their home lives and how good
Speaker 5: they are at finding things. So I, you know, hopped
Speaker 5: in the group chat that I have with the girls
Speaker 5: secret we have a secret one. So I'm gonna play
Speaker 5: some soundbites starting with Mia about how well does many
Speaker 5: do in a house at finding things?
Speaker 1: Be interested to hear this.
Speaker 7: I think that he's like, doesn't quite have eyes for
Speaker 7: the kitchen, you know, keeps it sort of organized and stuff,
Speaker 7: but it's just like when it comes to like where
Speaker 7: things go, I'm like, oh, this is so funny that
Speaker 7: I kind of thought that we had organized the kitchen together.
Speaker 7: And then sometimes I'll just be looking for something and.
Speaker 1: I'm like, aware, enough.
Speaker 7: Could that possibly be? And I'll find it in a
Speaker 7: completely different place and I'm like, oh, I wouldn't have
Speaker 7: thought to put it there when I hurt my back recently.
Speaker 7: So then Money was in charge of like doing everything
Speaker 7: in the kitchen, cooking, cleaning, like putting stuff away, and
Speaker 7: I'd be sat there next to him, like at the
Speaker 7: bar on a bar stool, watching him try to navigate
Speaker 7: some of this stuff, and it was so funny where
Speaker 7: he's like holding up a measuring cup being like I
Speaker 7: know where this goes, but like just remind me where's
Speaker 7: his go and I'm like, in that cupboard. The other day,
Speaker 7: he was like putting a blender away, and he was
Speaker 7: going to put it with all of the canned goods
Speaker 7: like where we have like beans and crushed tomato sauce.
Speaker 7: And I was like, oh, no, that doesn't go there.
Speaker 7: That just that goes in the next cupboard. So then
Speaker 7: he was gonna put it below with all the vinegar.
Speaker 7: I was like, no, no, try again.
Speaker 6: It goes in.
Speaker 7: Another cupboard, and eventually he found the cupboard where we
Speaker 7: keep appliances, and I was like, wow, that's that's so
Speaker 7: interesting that in my mind I just kind of like
Speaker 7: know where everything goes. But I was like, maybe he
Speaker 7: comes into the kitchen every day and it's like what
Speaker 7: new adventures away? Where could this go? If I thought
Speaker 7: about it fresh?
Speaker 1: This is libel.
Speaker 6: Did you know where the blender goes?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: Because I don't fucking use the blender.
Speaker 4: I don't use this shit, so I need your help.
Speaker 1: I don't put that shit anywhere.
Speaker 4: But I think generally ninety nine percent of the things
Speaker 4: I can't remember where they go. It's stuff I don't use,
Speaker 4: I will.
Speaker 5: Say, to give me any credit, you were talking about
Speaker 5: people don't remember when you do.
Speaker 6: Find things exactly. We do have an example here.
Speaker 7: I was surprised to learn that he does know where
Speaker 7: we keep the like bulk salt because we have like
Speaker 7: a what do you call it, like a little jar
Speaker 7: with salt in it, and we refill it with this
Speaker 7: big salt thing that's kind of hidden in the back
Speaker 7: of the car cupboard. And I like had realized that
Speaker 7: I was the one that you should refilled it. So
Speaker 7: I was like, I wonder, like, I'm guessing he probably
Speaker 7: doesn't know where it is. And then the other day
Speaker 7: he refilled it, and I was like, you know what,
Speaker 7: maybe I'm wrong, Maybe he does know where these things are.
Speaker 4: She's talking about me like a like a chimpion learn
Speaker 4: how to use tools.
Speaker 1: A shocking new development. Surprise, you knew where the salt is?
Speaker 6: All right? No, yeah, you're up next.
Speaker 1: I know she's been waiting for this episode.
Speaker 5: I will say you you were marked safe in terms
Speaker 5: of most things in the kitchen. Yeah, not a lot
Speaker 5: of examples there you're pretty good about that.
Speaker 6: But Noah's issue is laundry. Mmmm.
Speaker 1: Oh well, it's not my laundry.
Speaker 6: Okay, let's play it.
Speaker 1: I'll take the many the many defense. Let's hear it.
Speaker 3: Noah cannot discern where my clothing goes at all in
Speaker 3: a way that's like really should be studied, Like the
Speaker 3: sports bras are going with like the sleep clothes and
Speaker 3: the T shirts are going in the underwear drawer, and
Speaker 3: like every time we talk about it, he's just like, right,
Speaker 3: but your system is hard, Like your system's hard, and
Speaker 3: there's something about it that just truly does not compute
Speaker 3: for him. Like I think if he could put it
Speaker 3: away right, he would, but every time he does it wrong,
Speaker 3: and every time I say, oh, that would be fine
Speaker 3: if you did it wrong, because then you would learn,
Speaker 3: But it's like completely unknowable to him. I will try
Speaker 3: to explain the difference between an AARSM top and a
Speaker 3: sports bra.
Speaker 8: Really hard for him to get his head around.
Speaker 3: And I just feel like that's related in some way
Speaker 3: to just like complete inability to pick up on details
Speaker 3: that feel so fundamental to like an art item's properties
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 1: I'll explain my system, Okay, Yeah, there's pants in one drawer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's like sweatshirts and sweatpants in another drawer. Above those,
Speaker 1: I've got socks one drawer.
Speaker 4: Same, I've got a lot, way too many draws to
Speaker 4: it's it's more of a box, uh drawer thing, probably
Speaker 4: not a big drawer.
Speaker 1: Like okay, so boys, and then underwear and like athletic shorts.
Speaker 6: Okay, those are in the same. Yeah, my socks were
Speaker 6: in my underwear.
Speaker 1: That makes sense. If I if I didn't have so many.
Speaker 6: Socks, you have less socks, maybe you could get it.
Speaker 1: And then above that T shirts one drawer and then
Speaker 1: another one for like basically polos and kind of some
Speaker 1: miscellaneous shirts that aren't like.
Speaker 6: Yeah, not a straight T shirt.
Speaker 1: But that's my six drawers six that's my system. Yeah,
Speaker 1: her she is six drawers as well. It's just incomprehensible
Speaker 1: because the workout clothes seem like sleep clothes to me.
Speaker 6: But they're different.
Speaker 5: Apparently you don't know the difference between a sports.
Speaker 1: And then there then there's like and then it's like socks.
Speaker 1: It's it just to me, it seems like a jumpoint.
Speaker 1: Every time I opened them. I'm looking and one of
Speaker 1: her drawers doesn't really it'll open or won't close. That's
Speaker 1: a whole over the level of frustration. Now where I'm now,
Speaker 1: I'm really messing this thing up.
Speaker 5: Okay, So let me ask you. Is it what's confusing
Speaker 5: to you? You don't know where things go, or you
Speaker 5: can't discern what the.
Speaker 1: I can't discern what when I open the drawer, it's
Speaker 1: hard to tell what.
Speaker 6: Which is which?
Speaker 1: What category should be in here? It is the issue.
Speaker 5: Now, let's be honest here. How much of this do
Speaker 5: you actually really care about? Like how much of this
Speaker 5: is like if you actually put your mind to it,
Speaker 5: could you do it?
Speaker 1: I mean it depends what you mean by put my
Speaker 1: mind to it. I mean do I care about it?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I mean like part of it is
Speaker 5: like whatever, It's like, this is your stuff. Like if
Speaker 5: I put something in slightly the wrong drawer, it's not
Speaker 5: that big of a deal.
Speaker 1: That's more or less.
Speaker 6: You think that's more of it, or.
Speaker 5: You think it's like you're like fuck every week, I
Speaker 5: am like trying my hardest to do this and it's
Speaker 5: just not clicked. I mean I could yeah, I could
Speaker 5: got a hard closed blindness or something.
Speaker 1: I could try harder. I think it is a little
Speaker 1: bit of closed blindness, where like I'm not just throwing
Speaker 1: stuff in. Yeah, you're trying a little bit, but my
Speaker 1: system is a lot simpler, I think, even though I've sick.
Speaker 6: Wow, guy, there are a lot simpler.
Speaker 1: You've got like three categories.
Speaker 5: Well, let me play this because Julia also said this
Speaker 5: in her voice memo, and I think this rings tree
Speaker 5: to me.
Speaker 8: Obviously, I know that's not about finding things, but I
Speaker 8: feel like, as I'm sure you all get into, so
Speaker 8: much of this is like dumbass, like mental load shit
Speaker 8: of like living in partnership with anyone where one person
Speaker 8: is going to be better at something than others. But
Speaker 8: like the home is considered the woman's domain, whether I
Speaker 8: want it to be or not, like whether I agree
Speaker 8: or not, and whether the people coming into my home
Speaker 8: agree or not. Ultimately, in my mind, I've been raised
Speaker 8: with like this is my responsibility. You haven't been raised
Speaker 8: that way, and I feel like that's obviously part of it. Okay,
Speaker 8: you haven't been raised to really take not responsibility for this,
Speaker 8: but like you don't see it as at all related
Speaker 8: to who you are as a person or like a
Speaker 8: value about you it's not as important to you to
Speaker 8: know where things go because it's keeping an organized is
Speaker 8: not a value judgment on you as a person, in
Speaker 8: your capability to exist in the world in general. And
Speaker 8: so like then being met with obviously wanting to be
Speaker 8: a good partner and wanting to be helpful, then being
Speaker 8: intently bad at something like that like feels bad. So
Speaker 8: then it's kind of futile.
Speaker 5: You think that rings true to you that like you
Speaker 5: just don't view it as like, well, you don't see
Speaker 5: it as a reflection.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's you. I think there are worse
Speaker 1: character flaws for someone to have. And you know, I
Speaker 1: think in a perfect world we would all be able
Speaker 1: to mess up where things are, you know, And it's
Speaker 1: it's sad that this is what society has done to
Speaker 1: our queens, my queen specifically.
Speaker 6: Yeah, people are dying.
Speaker 5: This is like they're big There are bigger issues in
Speaker 5: a worried about the war is not top of the list.
Speaker 1: And if I can't, I can't distinguish the unicule tops
Speaker 1: like have you seen the news?
Speaker 5: Yeah, because in the White House, speaking in a group chat,
Speaker 5: I want to make it clear both of them are like, oh,
Speaker 5: this isn't really that big of a deal in our relationship.
Speaker 6: But I was.
Speaker 4: I was listening to what she was saying about, like
Speaker 4: what you're expected to do, or like what the home
Speaker 4: is a reflection on. But I kind of agree with
Speaker 4: no where we're like, yeah, it should be the case
Speaker 4: that they're allowed to make more mistakes, not the case
Speaker 4: that I should be perfect at putting stuff away.
Speaker 5: I like what Julia says about like it doesn't matter
Speaker 5: kind of what we think, because it's like, yeah, if
Speaker 5: someone shows up to your house and your home is
Speaker 5: a mess, yeah, they're not going to say oh God,
Speaker 5: damn manny or no, or I'm like, oh, what are
Speaker 5: Julian and mea doing?
Speaker 6: Like this place is a it's a hell hole.
Speaker 5: You know, nothing's organized, it's all over the place, right,
Speaker 5: So it is a reflection of the women.
Speaker 4: I don't know about if I agree with that so much.
Speaker 4: If someone's apartment was dirty, I'd be like, it's the
Speaker 4: guy doing this, they're.
Speaker 1: Dirty, or but yes, you would think it'd be like, wow,
Speaker 1: I can't believe she puts up with that.
Speaker 5: Yes, you would think it's a want like she is,
Speaker 5: because guys are expected to be dirty and the women
Speaker 5: are supposed to counter.
Speaker 4: It, honestly, genuinely speaking, probably like the war of feminism
Speaker 4: in the past, like fifty sixty years has allowed these
Speaker 4: kind of uffs to be on equal a little closer
Speaker 4: to equal standing today than like in the fifties or
Speaker 4: sixties or seventies. Of course, if there was a dirty house,
Speaker 4: it'd be like who the hell did you marry?
Speaker 1: Who's this woman?
Speaker 5: Yeah, Now it's more expected that men should help out
Speaker 5: a bit in the home, but it's cenerally still not
Speaker 5: you know, it's not fifty to fifty, but it is
Speaker 5: is less like, you know, guy goes to work, shows
Speaker 5: up at home and does absolutely nothing right, like they're
Speaker 5: I feel like guys get like shirtain chores now and
Speaker 5: like yeah, ahead of or own household.
Speaker 1: So there's been a couple of theories on this one
Speaker 1: that I think is largely debunked is that this goes
Speaker 1: back to our you know, hunter gatherer yeah, cavement. The
Speaker 1: theory is like, because men would go out to hunt,
Speaker 1: mm hm, we'd be we'd be looking for you know,
Speaker 1: animals moving holding like a bow and arrow or a spear,
Speaker 1: I guess, so you're looking for things that are moving
Speaker 1: out in the land.
Speaker 6: Things that are stationary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, things that are stationary, we're blotting that out. It
Speaker 1: doesn't matter because we're not going after that, you know,
Speaker 1: we're looking for the will to beast or whatever. That's incredible.
Speaker 1: And then people were also saying that, like, uh, men's
Speaker 1: peripheral vision is worse because we're laser focused on what's
Speaker 1: in front of us, which also explains why men will
Speaker 1: get caught looking at you know, pretty woman because the
Speaker 1: woman is you know, us hunk comes by, she can
Speaker 1: just look at the peripherals. It's not gonna be clocked
Speaker 1: versus you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do I think that's true? Probably not, But it's a
Speaker 1: clever idea that someone came up with.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I want to look at some you know, proper studies
Speaker 1: on you know, object location memory and see if there's
Speaker 1: any credence to this. Maybe there is a gender difference
Speaker 1: going on biologically, and I want to find out if
Speaker 1: there's a way we can combat this and reverse the cursor,
Speaker 1: maybe get better. Can we do better for our wives?
Speaker 4: Yeah, out there who are just desperately in need of help.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's that's what we'll do.
Speaker 6: After the break.
Speaker 1: All right, we are back I'm Annie, I'm Noah Devin.
Speaker 1: So I set out to find out why men are
Speaker 1: worse than women at finding things in their own home.
Speaker 1: I looked into a lot of research over the decades,
Speaker 1: and I spoke to a man who co authored a
Speaker 1: meta analysis on gender differences in object location memory. Oh,
Speaker 1: so seems like maybe an answer, yeah exists.
Speaker 9: I'm Albert Posma. I'm professor in europe psychology in Utrecht
Speaker 9: University in the Netherlands, and my research is in the
Speaker 9: so called memory and space lab. So we study how
Speaker 9: human memory works and also spatial memory works, and also
Speaker 9: how it can fail, what can go wrong.
Speaker 1: So this paper of his was published in two thousand
Speaker 1: and seven. It looked at dozens of different studies to
Speaker 1: see how gender impacts object location memory. So I asked
Speaker 1: what a typical experiment looks like for this sort of thing.
Speaker 1: But first, we're going to do it right now ourselves
Speaker 1: a little surprise.
Speaker 6: Dude, did you hide some surprise experiment?
Speaker 1: So a classical one is a sheet of paper with
Speaker 1: a number of drawings of objects on it.
Speaker 6: I feel like this is like the Trump presidential test.
Speaker 5: Yeah, basically, amster dog, You've got to remember.
Speaker 1: It you study it for a time, and then you
Speaker 1: get a second sheet of paper and you have to
Speaker 1: mark which drawings have moved positions, put it cross through
Speaker 1: any items that are new. Ready, oh go.
Speaker 5: So I also if there's on location, I'm looking to
Speaker 5: my dumb as I have been thinking about.
Speaker 6: What the exs you actually are are.
Speaker 1: There's also versions of this on a computer where you
Speaker 1: have to place the objects back to their original place.
Speaker 1: And there's natural environment tests where you study a room
Speaker 1: and have to memorize the object locations in a similar fashion.
Speaker 1: So that's more realistic to kind of what we're actually
Speaker 1: talking about, where you would kind of have a room
Speaker 1: set up, kind of like an I spy. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: put it to the test. My wife and I did
Speaker 1: it this morning, and now it's your return.
Speaker 6: And I'm looking at mine.
Speaker 1: I'm not looking at shit. I'm looking at my paper,
Speaker 1: all right and time. As for the results of our
Speaker 1: budget version of the experiment, Devin and many actually overperformed
Speaker 1: for men. Congrats boys. If you want to take the
Speaker 1: test yourself or just see what it looks like, you
Speaker 1: can check out our newsletter in the show notes below.
Speaker 1: Now let's get to the actual science. So having done this,
Speaker 1: I want to know kind of what are the actual
Speaker 1: outcomes in the studies, the ones that have done this
Speaker 1: more professionally than we have here are men worse than
Speaker 1: women at finding things? So first, doctor Postma made a
Speaker 1: caveat that often these differences are over exaggerated. There are
Speaker 1: more similarities than differences. But while men are better at
Speaker 1: some spatial cognition tests like being able to do mental
Speaker 1: rotation of objects, women have shown to be better overall
Speaker 1: at tests of object location memory. Because there's so many
Speaker 1: different factors that make it hard to pin down, but
Speaker 1: there is kind of a measurable effect size difference for
Speaker 1: this one and kind of overall in this meta analysis
Speaker 1: they did, there is a mean way to effect size
Speaker 1: in favor of women of zero point two sixty nine
Speaker 1: across the eighty six total effects sizes. So, by and large,
Speaker 1: women do show superiority in object location memory.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the rumors are true. They're just better validated. I
Speaker 1: was hoping that would be like a percentage, it's not. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then there's also all this stuff once you kind
Speaker 1: of get into the fine prints of like if it's
Speaker 1: masculine coded objects, men are better versus feminine coded ones
Speaker 1: and neutral, which is funny.
Speaker 6: You know what's funny.
Speaker 5: I think I connected with some of the what people
Speaker 5: say that feminine code because I was like ironing board.
Speaker 6: I know's I love ironing boards. I remember where that
Speaker 6: is my tea.
Speaker 5: I got two different teapots, so I know exactly where
Speaker 5: those were there, you go, I knew where the flowers were.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 6: None in the maskless stuff stood out to me.
Speaker 4: I misplaced the dumbo. Yeah, I need to hit the gym.
Speaker 1: But I ask why he thinks this is so. Some
Speaker 1: of the thoughts behind this are exposure. So if you
Speaker 1: do these exercises like searching for ketchup in the fridge,
Speaker 1: you'll get better at it. And others expectations.
Speaker 2: And I know there have been studies that if you
Speaker 2: label them as a spatial cognition test, you get larger
Speaker 2: differences between men and women. Then if you don't label them,
Speaker 2: it could be that that women think, oh, this is
Speaker 2: spatial thinking, I'm not good in this. Then they do
Speaker 2: slightly worse than men.
Speaker 1: And then still there might be some hardwiring due to
Speaker 1: the fact that effect sizes remain stable over many studies
Speaker 1: over decades. And here's another note which explains some other
Speaker 1: studies that show men are better at navigating space, so
Speaker 1: like using roadmap, et cetera. So this is doctor Postma
Speaker 1: talking about relative location versus exact location.
Speaker 2: So women are slightly better in memorizing where things are.
Speaker 2: One important reason, if I can explain this, could be
Speaker 2: that in memorizing the locations of objects, it often is
Speaker 2: not the exact position that's so important, but it's the
Speaker 2: global position that's important. You can try to memorize where
Speaker 2: you've left your headphones. They could be on the table,
Speaker 2: but the exact position on the table is not that important.
Speaker 2: It's the relative location. So it's knowing in which container
Speaker 2: location items can be found that's enough.
Speaker 1: In the studies say this where men will be better
Speaker 1: at being like, Okay, I know that mug moved six
Speaker 1: inches over that way, but women are better at knowing okay,
Speaker 1: the mug is to the left of the pot or whatever.
Speaker 1: So those relative things versus like precision, Yeah, which is interesting.
Speaker 4: Which like to be fairer to women. The precision thing
Speaker 4: is way less important.
Speaker 1: Well yeah it doesn't like it doesn't help me, yeah
Speaker 1: at all. If you're practicing these things by going into
Speaker 1: the cabinets or the fridge, et cetera. Naturally you're gonna
Speaker 1: need to know where items are. So if women are
Speaker 1: typically cooking more, then they're going to be navigating those
Speaker 1: items much more than someone who isn't. And maybe the
Speaker 1: man is going to be better at finding the tools
Speaker 1: in the garage.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's just the roles that you're playing, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it makes sense, you know, and all these things.
Speaker 1: Of course, the studies say like it changes by population
Speaker 1: and individual. I'm always kind of hesitant to even do
Speaker 1: episodes like this because it is like, yeah, men be
Speaker 1: like this, and you know women aren't. You know, women
Speaker 1: know where the spices are yea. But that said they do,
Speaker 1: err yeah yeah. And then going into that kind of
Speaker 1: idea of is there a hardwired difference? You know, we
Speaker 1: mentioned the intro, there's theories that this goes back to
Speaker 1: hunter gatherer days, that sort of stuff, where maybe there
Speaker 1: is an eventually some sort of genetic position. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I asked about that, and that comes up in the
Speaker 1: studies too, where people do have this theory and they're
Speaker 1: actually looking into it.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 1: Of course, it is impossible to do an experiment on
Speaker 1: this given we don't have time machines.
Speaker 2: I like the basic idea that there was some deficion
Speaker 2: of labor in or ancestor societies and over many generations
Speaker 2: that could be have led to a sort of hard
Speaker 2: to wire difference in the brains. But again, most of
Speaker 2: I think is that there was joined labor in many things.
Speaker 2: So men have to gather also vegetables that could be eaten,
Speaker 2: and women also had to do loom, distance estimations or
Speaker 2: certain things. So again it could be a small driving force,
Speaker 2: but not too much.
Speaker 1: It's not as black and white as like men never
Speaker 1: had to look for things that were still you know,
Speaker 1: advice versa. Yeah, so it would be a very lazy
Speaker 1: excuse for me to say.
Speaker 6: That's why I can't back in the day, What do.
Speaker 1: You expect me to do? I'm out walking around the
Speaker 1: world and hunting. You know. Always important to note that.
Speaker 6: So we can't completely discount it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like totally garbage, but you know, you
Speaker 1: can't necessarily wait it so heavily because we can't prove it.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 1: It's more like here's maybe a possible factor into it,
Speaker 1: along with current environmental things and all that. Just like
Speaker 1: roles that we have in our own house or outside
Speaker 1: of it. That sort of thing makes sense. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then I ask, you know, how can we improve Believe
Speaker 1: it or not, there's no simple It's a matter of
Speaker 1: being intentional and systematic. So if you don't have some
Speaker 1: organizational system, or we don't have one that you know yet,
Speaker 1: you should learn it. So okay, you write spices on
Speaker 1: the left, green spaces on the right, et cetera. And
Speaker 1: just being intentional when you put things back or take
Speaker 1: the things, and it's basically just practice and eventually you
Speaker 1: will learn this.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Like, for example, if you say you're in a kitchen
Speaker 5: and you're like, all right, this is where we put
Speaker 5: all the appliances. So then the only thing you need
Speaker 5: to remember is if there's an appliance, it's going to
Speaker 5: be in this general area.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: You don't need to know the exact location of it. Yeah.
Speaker 5: So if you have a blender, maybe you don't put
Speaker 5: it with the beans.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. Yeah, you know when we talk about it
Speaker 1: like this, exactly, it is common sense.
Speaker 4: It's the thing too where like all right, So for
Speaker 4: this experiment, we were asked to intentionally put some effort
Speaker 4: in remembering where these things were and then at the
Speaker 4: end we did pretty well and remembering where they were.
Speaker 4: And that's essentially what a lot of women are asking
Speaker 4: their partners to do, which is just to put some
Speaker 4: effort into it. Yeah, it's not a biological disadvantage that
Speaker 4: we have. It's really about like, okay, if you look
Speaker 4: at this for one minute.
Speaker 1: Really think about it, and we can do better. That said,
Speaker 1: I knew what the experiment was going into it, and
Speaker 1: still when I was staring at the that first page
Speaker 1: trying to memorize, I was like, I cannot I know,
Speaker 1: I couldn't like us, and you know, I was just nervous.
Speaker 1: And then I get to page two, I was like,
Speaker 1: no clue. All right, folks, that's the end of the
Speaker 1: main show. We're always trying new things out here at
Speaker 1: NST Headquarters.
Speaker 6: So stick around after the.
Speaker 1: Break to hear a bonus hot take from Devin.
Speaker 5: So my hot take, and this happened to me. I'm
Speaker 5: not just talking about it, I'm about that life.
Speaker 6: Okay. I went to Caba last week. Love Cava.
Speaker 1: Tell the people what is tava?
Speaker 5: Is Mediterranean bowl similar to everybody calls it Chipotle of
Speaker 5: blah blah blah. It's Mediterranean bowls. You make your own
Speaker 5: bowl delicious. They give you a lot of food, good portions, A.
Speaker 6: Great lunch option. Uh, if you work out a corporate job.
Speaker 5: And I was eating my bowl delicious bowl and it
Speaker 5: was a long piece of hair in it. Oh, my
Speaker 5: hot takes. Is not that big a deal to have
Speaker 5: hair in your food? Yeah, I almost people get hairing
Speaker 5: the food and they want to burn the restaurant down.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's hair.
Speaker 5: It's not I get it's a little bit roast, especially
Speaker 5: if you don't see it ahead of time and it's
Speaker 5: in your mouth and you're like, oh, this is someone
Speaker 5: else's hair.
Speaker 6: It was long.
Speaker 5: It was a long I knew first of all. And
Speaker 5: it wasn't my hair. Yeah, the very distinct you know.
Speaker 5: It was a straight blonde piece of hair, and it
Speaker 5: was like it was in there good, you know, like
Speaker 5: it got mixed in it was it was curled up nicely,
Speaker 5: and I just took it aside and continued.
Speaker 1: How far into your meal were you This was towards
Speaker 1: the end. Yeah, so you might have been chopping.
Speaker 5: Oh I could have been. They could have been a mouthful.
Speaker 5: It wasn't like I saw it on top and stopped
Speaker 5: I was in there. I may have eaten some here already.
Speaker 5: But my thing is like, it's not that big of
Speaker 5: a deal. And I think people get upset about it
Speaker 5: because it reminds them that someone else made their food,
Speaker 5: you know.
Speaker 6: I think people don't like the idea.
Speaker 5: They like the idea of the food being in front
Speaker 5: of them, right, they like the idea of the food
Speaker 5: being made fresh, and they like of not having to
Speaker 5: make that food. I think the hair is a reminder
Speaker 5: that someone else had to do labor interesting to make
Speaker 5: your food.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 5: And because I don't think it's that if there was
Speaker 5: a piece of hair that got into your mouth just randomly,
Speaker 5: you wouldn't react in the same way that you do
Speaker 5: that as oh yeah when it's in your food.
Speaker 4: Well, I certainly think people behave out of character when
Speaker 4: it comes to like food service. People like yeah, especially
Speaker 4: a fast casual. Yeah, like they're kind of people think
Speaker 4: they're kind of below them.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Remember the Chipotle saw people then going filming the Chipotle
Speaker 1: things so they'd get bigger portions. Yeah yeah, yeah, the
Speaker 1: saddest people in the world. And you know, I used
Speaker 1: to be.
Speaker 4: A food service worker, thank you.
Speaker 1: Yea, And yeah I used to get like people.
Speaker 4: Who would come in and just like find anything to
Speaker 4: complain about to either get a discount or in many
Speaker 4: cases weren't even looking for a discount, just like needed someone.
Speaker 6: To yell at beat the outlet for today.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I could see that. I could see that.
Speaker 4: I think when I find hair in my and my food,
Speaker 4: I think there's a good argument, like if you wanted
Speaker 4: to be like, hey I found you go up to them, Hey,
Speaker 4: I found some hair in my foe?
Speaker 1: Can I get a new one?
Speaker 6: I don't think it's I think that's fair to fair.
Speaker 4: But the reason I'm not doing that is largely out
Speaker 4: of convenience.
Speaker 1: I think I just can be fucking It doesn't disturb Yeah,
Speaker 1: to your point, it doesn't disturb me that much anyway. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if it was like, Okay, I'm noticing now there's multiple here,
Speaker 1: like it seems like there's really something going on, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's an honest mistake. It's not even a mistake.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just that's what happened on your head. On
Speaker 5: your head, it falls off sometimes that's it. Yesterday I
Speaker 5: was watching a video where this guy had he went
Speaker 5: to some place and got like some pancakes with some syrup,
Speaker 5: and he opens up his container when he gets home
Speaker 5: and there's literally bugs scroll around.
Speaker 4: Okay, in this instance fair multiple bugs skip.
Speaker 1: That local franchise and go straight to corporate.
Speaker 6: At that point.
Speaker 5: The funny thing is he took it back and the
Speaker 5: lady was like, what do you want me to do
Speaker 5: about it?
Speaker 6: You want me to make you another one.
Speaker 5: He's like, I don't want another one.
Speaker 6: Give me my money back.
Speaker 1: I think you should shut the whole place so.
Speaker 6: That you know that is fair if you're being nagliged.
Speaker 1: Hit, Yeah, something is actually dirty, you know, obviously bugs.
Speaker 6: If there's a bug in my food, all right.
Speaker 5: That's kind of a problem. Yeah, you put a band
Speaker 5: aid in my food, all right? Come on, that's kind
Speaker 5: of a problem.
Speaker 6: Yellow piece of hair.
Speaker 4: Even with the hair, like the hair, I'm truly not
Speaker 4: that bothered by it is of course more disturbing when
Speaker 4: you when you're pulling out when you have already consumed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it's like, oh that's rough.
Speaker 4: It kind of can't even eat the rest of the
Speaker 4: bowl because I think there's more hair in there.
Speaker 6: I just not me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm turned off.
Speaker 6: Couldn't be me, I mean that thing.
Speaker 5: I mean it more now I might go get seconds
Speaker 5: finished the whole thing, like, hey, there was some hearing that,
Speaker 5: so I'm going.
Speaker 1: That was delicious.
Speaker 6: You know whose hair was that? Yeah? You know. You
Speaker 6: come in and they do those like pranks like who
Speaker 6: made this great job? Whose hair is this?
Speaker 1: No such thing as a production of collot dam No
Speaker 1: such thing as a production of kaleidoscope content. Our executive
Speaker 1: producers are Kate Osborne and man Gesh hot Tikidur. The
Speaker 1: show is created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, That's me
Speaker 1: and Devin Joseph. The man credit song by Manny. Mixing
Speaker 1: is by Steve Bone. Additional reporting by Lauren Wilson. Our
Speaker 1: guest this week was doctor Albert Postma from Utrek to University.
Speaker 1: For more, including some of the research discussed, and to
Speaker 1: do your own version of the object location test, subscribe
Speaker 1: to our newsletter at No Such thing dot show. If
Speaker 1: you have feedback for us or our question. Our email
Speaker 1: is Manny no A Devin at gmail dot com. If
Speaker 1: you're in the US, you can also leave us a
Speaker 1: voicemail by calling the number in the show notes. Please
Speaker 1: leave us a five star rating and write a nice
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Speaker 1: make sure you tap that bell but and so you
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Speaker 1: we'll be back next week with a new episode. Bye,
Speaker 1: Hell's Hells, Hells, Hells, no such thing.