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Speaker 1: to the Piked and Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and
Speaker 1: Katie Studios. I gotta tell you from kind of a
Speaker 1: visceral standpoint, when I heard the news that this kid
Speaker 1: had rolled over on this case, one thing that kind
Speaker 1: of came to mind for me is, you know, I
Speaker 1: kind of envisioned his mother in almost a mob Barker
Speaker 1: kind of way, that she's kind of the puppet master
Speaker 1: that's controlling everything. He's sitting there all along, and suddenly
Speaker 1: he has this lucid moment where he's out from under
Speaker 1: that thob and he realizes, I'm going to get the
Speaker 1: needle for all of this. This is the Piked and
Speaker 1: Massacre Returned to Pike County Season two, Episode three, Wagner
Speaker 1: Versus Wagner. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie
Speaker 1: Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. On April twenty second,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, Jake Wagner pleaded guilty to eight aggravated
Speaker 1: murder charges in the Rodent family massacre. As part of
Speaker 1: his plea deal, he implicated his mother, Angela Wagner, father
Speaker 1: Billy Wagner, and brother George Wagner as co conspirators in
Speaker 1: the killings. He's also agreeing to testify against his parents
Speaker 1: and brother, who are also charged in these murders. Here's
Speaker 1: reporter Anteinette Levy. I don't believe anybody knew he was
Speaker 1: going to do this, so it's it's a pretty stunning development.
Speaker 1: To see Jake Wagner, the youngest of the entire family,
Speaker 1: who would you would think would be, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: the most pliable in some respects because he is the youngest.
Speaker 1: But to see him just break away from his family,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's pretty interesting. The significance of
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner folding on his family cannot be overstated. But
Speaker 1: what does it mean moving forward? Criminal defense attorney Mike
Speaker 1: Allen told Stephanie that it could signal an impending legal
Speaker 1: chess match in terms of Jake Wagner's admission of guilt,
Speaker 1: I'm just curious about what that means altogether. He's confessed
Speaker 1: to killing five of the eight rodents. Personally, is he
Speaker 1: trying to save himself or trying to save his family?
Speaker 1: You know, obviously, you know if he did five out
Speaker 1: of eight, you still have three left, and you know
Speaker 1: it'll come out who who actually did the killing on
Speaker 1: those other three, But it was probably a strategic move
Speaker 1: on the prosecutor's part not to let that out yet.
Speaker 1: And you know a prosecutor is not going to show
Speaker 1: his cards, or in this case, she Angie when't. She's
Speaker 1: got three other defendants to try, so they're still going
Speaker 1: to hold it close to the vest I think. Stephanie
Speaker 1: asked reporter James Pilcher if there were still moves left
Speaker 1: for Jake to play, Is it possible that he'll say
Speaker 1: that Jacob could say I was in a very controlling environment.
Speaker 1: My mother, Angela Wagner, controlled us, My father was a
Speaker 1: bully and said I had to do these things, and
Speaker 1: we were coerced into it. Is there any value in
Speaker 1: that even? I mean, that's entirely possible, and some of
Speaker 1: the reporting that's what we've heard. Leekal. The other thing
Speaker 1: I will say is that maybe they're going after bigger
Speaker 1: game than Jake, and they figured we'll cut this deal. Now,
Speaker 1: he'll give us what we want and then we can
Speaker 1: go get the mom and the dad. But clearly they
Speaker 1: were going after the people who plotted it. This was
Speaker 1: not Jake's idea, right, or at least not according to
Speaker 1: the prosecutors. This was the family coming together. That's what
Speaker 1: the prosecutors are after, is that, Okay, we get Jake
Speaker 1: to help us, we get Jake to plead out. It
Speaker 1: shows that this really did happen. Now we can go
Speaker 1: after the people who actually planned it. On April twenty eighth,
Speaker 1: just six days after Jake Wagner's hearing, his accused brother
Speaker 1: George Wagner, walked into the Pike County Courthouse. The first
Speaker 1: court hearing since last week's surprise plea deal and the
Speaker 1: Pike County murder trials took place today. This hearing for
Speaker 1: George Wagner was supposed to center on a few defense
Speaker 1: emotions involving discovery evidence. Annette Levy was on the scene
Speaker 1: that day. She spoke to producer Chris Graves. He kind
Speaker 1: of described the mood and what was going on. The
Speaker 1: mood was a lot lighter than it had been in
Speaker 1: the past. The Roden family is a little bit that
Speaker 1: I saw of them. They just seemed happy for the
Speaker 1: first time in a long time. And I think I
Speaker 1: saw Hannah Gilly's mother and she actually seemed happy and
Speaker 1: they can start to finally look fithered. So it was
Speaker 1: just a much lighter mood, But you know George the Fourth,
Speaker 1: obviously it wasn't a lighter mood for him. He looked
Speaker 1: very stressed, He looked very thin. He doesn't look good.
Speaker 1: You can see it on his face. In the aftermath
Speaker 1: of Jake Wagner's shocking confession, many wondered how accused older
Speaker 1: brother George Wagner's hearing would play out. We spoke at
Speaker 1: length about George in the last two episodes. It was
Speaker 1: at his wedding that the last known picture of the
Speaker 1: Roden and Wagner families was taken. Also, George and his
Speaker 1: ex wife dealt with eerily similar custody issues that would
Speaker 1: foreshadow what would happen between victim Hannah Rowden and Jake Wagner.
Speaker 1: His lawyer, Rick Nash, has been very assertive and maintained
Speaker 1: that George the fourth there was no case against him,
Speaker 1: that there was no evidence against him. But now he's
Speaker 1: kind of having to swallow his pride a little bit.
Speaker 1: I think and realize that there may be some really
Speaker 1: good evidence tying his client to this and this emotion
Speaker 1: hearing was for like all these boilerplate death penalty emotions,
Speaker 1: death penalty's off the table now, people following the case,
Speaker 1: wondered would George Wagner strike a plea deal as well.
Speaker 1: My opinion of George the fourth is that he's kind
Speaker 1: of is the weakest link in this family because he's
Speaker 1: got the most to lose. He has a son who
Speaker 1: he loves dearly, and he wants to be with his son.
Speaker 1: And so I was wondering, what's George going to do?
Speaker 1: Instead of a guilty plead, the court heard something far
Speaker 1: less dramatic. It took us in five minutes for George
Speaker 1: wage to the fourth to ask for more time to
Speaker 1: evaluate the situation. No, Judge, I don't think so. I
Speaker 1: think everybody's agreed that, given recent events, that everybody needs
Speaker 1: to step back and reassess. The hearing concluded with an
Speaker 1: agreement to reschedule the motion for June twenty first, twenty one.
Speaker 1: Though there were no bombshell developments, it's clear that the
Speaker 1: next few weeks will be pivotal. George Wagner and his
Speaker 1: accused parents, Angela and Billy Wagner must now decide how
Speaker 1: they will proceed. Do you think that it's possible that
Speaker 1: now that Jake took the plea deal and admitted to
Speaker 1: the murders that we may see Billy Angela and or
Speaker 1: George doing this same thing. I think it's possible that
Speaker 1: the others could plead out. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: what's the point They have nothing to lose by going
Speaker 1: to trial, because they either to plead out get life
Speaker 1: in prison, or they roll the dice and go to
Speaker 1: trial and maybe they can hang a jury. As Mike
Speaker 1: g Allen points out, there's no one case that assures
Speaker 1: a conviction. Is there any version of this where one
Speaker 1: of them is found guilty and the other are found innocent.
Speaker 1: It's possible, Yeah, I mean, it just it all depends
Speaker 1: on what the individual juries want to do. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's very possible, and it's happened on trials that where
Speaker 1: they're two defendants that have been severed, where one has
Speaker 1: found guilty and the other one is not. You know,
Speaker 1: different juries are different and it'll be a different jury
Speaker 1: for every one of these trials. And lawyers will tell you,
Speaker 1: especially criminal lawyers, you never know what is going to
Speaker 1: happen with the jury. And I've been at this for
Speaker 1: forty years and juries are becoming even more unpredictable. I
Speaker 1: don't know why, but they are but in answer to
Speaker 1: your question, yeah, that's a possibility. Last episode, we heard
Speaker 1: Bureau of Criminal Investigation agent Ryan Scheiderer testify about the
Speaker 1: Wagner's cult like family done Ammock. They're very close. They
Speaker 1: lived together, they've always lived together. Their finances are intermingled,
Speaker 1: the homeschool together, they raised their kids together. Everything is
Speaker 1: done together. As well as we have an informant who
Speaker 1: says that every decision within that family is made as
Speaker 1: a family decision. Without any of the other Wagners coming
Speaker 1: forward with plea deals, there are still a lot of
Speaker 1: questions that need to be answered about the family that
Speaker 1: is alleged to have carried out Ohio's most notorious crime.
Speaker 1: It's worth noting that while Jake Wagner pleaded guilty, Angela
Speaker 1: Billy and George Wagner have pleaded not guilty. The state
Speaker 1: is kind of maintained that each person in this conspiracy
Speaker 1: had their own role, They had their own kind of
Speaker 1: part to play, and you know, it's going to be
Speaker 1: interesting to see how strong the evidence is to support
Speaker 1: their assertion that each person had a role in this conspiracy.
Speaker 1: At this point, one thing is clear. Jake Wagner holds
Speaker 1: the fate of his family in his hands, and the
Speaker 1: united front the Wagner family has built is beginning to erode.
Speaker 1: How it will all unfold is anyone's guests. Remember, we
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what Jake said and how he said it.
Speaker 1: We just know that he confessed and led them to evidence.
Speaker 1: So there's still a lot we don't know based on
Speaker 1: what the prosecution outlined in court. So let's take a
Speaker 1: look at the evidence we know about based on what
Speaker 1: we've heard through preliminary hearings over the past three years.
Speaker 1: One of the most informative was a hearing for accused
Speaker 1: brother George Wagner that took place on August thirty first,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty. That day, George's attorneys requested that he be
Speaker 1: allowed to post bail, arguing that there was no evidence
Speaker 1: to tie him to the case, and natte Levy was
Speaker 1: at the Pike County courthouse that day. It was actually
Speaker 1: a fool's errand because in the state of Ohio, someone
Speaker 1: charged with aggravated murder in which the death county is
Speaker 1: sought can be held without bail automatically. There's really no
Speaker 1: question about it. So they were kind of wanting to
Speaker 1: I think get some more information about the evidence in
Speaker 1: the case. The BCI agent on the case, the lead agent,
Speaker 1: Ryan Scheiderer, took the stand and answered a series of
Speaker 1: questions about the evidence in the case that they have
Speaker 1: against George. Swear testimony. You were about gearge of its
Speaker 1: three the whole pie. That special Agent Ryan Scheiterer of
Speaker 1: the Bureau of Criminal Investigation taking his oath in court.
Speaker 1: During the hearing, George Wagner's attorney tried to distance his
Speaker 1: client from the crime and his accused family. His attorney
Speaker 1: had set something to the effect of the evidence, you know,
Speaker 1: if it tied anybody to this, it was Jake and
Speaker 1: Angela and not George. What text or digital communications did
Speaker 1: you find too or from him? If you think is
Speaker 1: relevant specifically about text messages with George, I don't remember any.
Speaker 1: Did you collect a cell phone from George? I don't
Speaker 1: believe we ever collected George celler What connection does George
Speaker 1: had to do with that Laftime? The device was registered
Speaker 1: to Jake, but specifically Angela, who seemed to be the
Speaker 1: primary user of that laptop. But there was some evidence
Speaker 1: that implicated George Wagner along with his brother Jake in
Speaker 1: the crimes. One of the most striking parts of Agent
Speaker 1: Scheider's testimony had to do with the type of guns
Speaker 1: used in the homicides. We know the three calibers of
Speaker 1: firearms that were used to give them these murders, and
Speaker 1: they were a twenty two caliber long rifle, a forty
Speaker 1: caliber and a thirty caliber. Scheiderer went on to make
Speaker 1: a direct correlation between the twenty two caliber shell casings
Speaker 1: found at victims Dana Roden and Frankie Roden's homes and
Speaker 1: the property owned by the Wagner family. Here's Agent Scheiterer
Speaker 1: being questioned by Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa. We recovered twenty two
Speaker 1: caliber shell casings and where we recovered those which at
Speaker 1: two sixty Peterson Road, which was a property that was
Speaker 1: owned by George Wager and his brother Jake. And were
Speaker 1: those shell casings submitted to the last for comparison to
Speaker 1: the shell casings that have been recovered from both Frankie's
Speaker 1: and Dana's residences. Yes, and what was the opinion of
Speaker 1: the The weapon that fired the shell casings at two
Speaker 1: sixty Pierson Road also fired the shell casings at Anna's
Speaker 1: and Dana's residence as well. As Frankie and Hannah Gillis residence.
Speaker 1: So the same firearm had been fired on the same properties. Okay,
Speaker 1: so the exact same gun, not just the same type
Speaker 1: of the same firearms, okay. Forensic expert Joseph Morgan explained
Speaker 1: the intricate science involved in tying a shell casing back
Speaker 1: to a specific gun. The inside of a handgun like
Speaker 1: this has got rifling. That means it's got lands, which
Speaker 1: are kind of flat plateau looking formations. And also because
Speaker 1: these are soft metal brass casings that are being ejected
Speaker 1: once the round is fired, you have what are referred
Speaker 1: to as extraction marks this spent case, and it leaves
Speaker 1: these little marks that are unique to the interior housing
Speaker 1: of this particular weapon. And even you can have a
Speaker 1: weapon that rolls off the line with fifty other weapons
Speaker 1: that are the same same model, but they're all going
Speaker 1: to be unique at a microscopic level, and that's how
Speaker 1: they tied back the projectile to a specific weapon. Another
Speaker 1: suspicious item was found during a different search of the
Speaker 1: same Wagner property. The police went back and they found
Speaker 1: what the ATF says was likely used as a homemade
Speaker 1: silencer for a gun agent Scheierer elaborated recovered a maglite
Speaker 1: flashlight turned into a suppressor. Yeah, adapter at one end
Speaker 1: that as a solid adapter, they closed in and they
Speaker 1: at the other end you add a thread adapter and
Speaker 1: it's designed to catch cleaning solvent when you're cleaning your firearm,
Speaker 1: but it can easily be converted into a suppressor. They
Speaker 1: determined that it was a suppressor as defined by federal statue,
Speaker 1: been fired at least one time because they could see
Speaker 1: a bull of striking inside the suppressor. Thing. That was
Speaker 1: pretty interesting because that wasn't found. That was found in
Speaker 1: I think October of twenty eighteen, right before the indictments
Speaker 1: came out, and that property, the Peterson Road home had
Speaker 1: been searched in May of twenty seventeen. I mean, when
Speaker 1: I hear that, it sounds like someone told them about it.
Speaker 1: We know, but Jake led them to the guns, the
Speaker 1: murder weapons, the car used purchased and news and so
Speaker 1: who knows. Maybe. During cross examination by George Wagner's attorney,
Speaker 1: Agent Scheiterer highlighted some of the other evidence the state
Speaker 1: has on George, including wiretap surveillance. Could you approximate to
Speaker 1: the nearest hundred of how many hours you have regarding
Speaker 1: this recording of George Wagner? Hours? Not really, but I
Speaker 1: would say over one hundred, one hundred days, over a
Speaker 1: hudred days, okay, And so I want you to focus
Speaker 1: on those hundred days, and maybe your answer is the same,
Speaker 1: but I'm going to ask it a different way. Could
Speaker 1: you tell us over that one hundred days of recording
Speaker 1: George Wagner one statement he made that you recorded that
Speaker 1: ties him into this case. I mean, he never confessed,
Speaker 1: if that's what you're getting at, but he made incriminating statements.
Speaker 1: At a different hearing, George Wagner appeared in court for
Speaker 1: an unusual request to be put in solitary confinement. Here's
Speaker 1: Jeff speaking with Mike Gallen. What about George Wagner asking
Speaker 1: for solitary confinement? What do you make of that? His
Speaker 1: stated reason was that he wanted to be able to
Speaker 1: study the Bible in peace. That's a little unusual when
Speaker 1: inmates ask for solitary A lot of times, although they
Speaker 1: may not say it, they're asking for that because they've
Speaker 1: been threatened, and you know, they want to make sure
Speaker 1: that they're as safe as they can be in jail.
Speaker 1: You know, it's hard, it's hard to know what's going
Speaker 1: through his head. But I mean, either he's immersing himself
Speaker 1: in the Holy Bible or somebody saying that they're going
Speaker 1: to do something to him. Either way, his mental state
Speaker 1: is probably not good. But when I read that, I
Speaker 1: kind of wondered, is that the real reason? I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, you just have to wonder what the motivation is.
Speaker 1: Since his arrest in twenty eighteen, accused father Billy Wagner
Speaker 1: has also staunchly maintained his innocence. Billy Wagner's attorney has
Speaker 1: been very adamant that there's no evidence. There's no case
Speaker 1: against Billy Wagner, but there's nothing. They have, nothing that
Speaker 1: ties him to this. Last year, Billy Wagner made an
Speaker 1: audacious move to separate himself from the other members of
Speaker 1: his family and moved his trial forward. He took it
Speaker 1: upon himself to file a motion in court. It had
Speaker 1: to do with his right to what's referred to as
Speaker 1: a speedy trial and Ohio procedural rule stipulating that anyone
Speaker 1: charged with a felony must be brought to trial within
Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy days of their arrest while accused
Speaker 1: father Billy Wagner, had initially waived his right to a
Speaker 1: speedy trial. It seems he suddenly had a change of heart.
Speaker 1: The court received a handwritten motion from Billy Wagner asking
Speaker 1: that his right to a speedy trial be invoked and
Speaker 1: that he withdraw his waiver of a speedy trial right.
Speaker 1: He was pretty frustrated. I guess that he's sitting in jail.
Speaker 1: He says he's innocent and was frustrated and submitted this
Speaker 1: or to the court. But it was actually some fairly
Speaker 1: good jailhouse lawyer. I'm assuming he had somebody in the
Speaker 1: jail can write this for him and his attorneys. They
Speaker 1: became aware of it and talked with him and withdrew
Speaker 1: it immediately. Mike Allen gave us his professional opinion on
Speaker 1: Billy's spun legal strategy. I don't care how small your
Speaker 1: jail is, you're going to have jail house lawyers and
Speaker 1: criminal defense attorneys instruct their clients. Do not listen to
Speaker 1: the jail house lawyers. They don't know what they're talking about.
Speaker 1: If they did, they wouldn't be where they are. So
Speaker 1: that's every criminal defense lawyer's worst nightmare. Is when your
Speaker 1: client files a motion without consulting the attorney, it's a
Speaker 1: very stupid thing to do. So Billy Wagner's lawyer, I'm sure,
Speaker 1: probably had some strong words for him for doing that. Well,
Speaker 1: Billy and George Wagner have been busy filing legal motions
Speaker 1: to help their cases. The same camp be said about
Speaker 1: accused mother Angelo Wagner. Bob Craypence is what you would call,
Speaker 1: you know, the first chair on this case for her
Speaker 1: defense team, and he's been very it's been very quiet
Speaker 1: on that front. However, Angelo Wagner has appeared in court
Speaker 1: for other At a hearing in twenty nineteen, Judge Randy
Speaker 1: Deering revoked Angelo Wagner's mail and phone privileges after she
Speaker 1: was caught trying to discuss case strategy with her family.
Speaker 1: Here's her lawyer speaking in court that day, which stipulating begetage.
Speaker 1: She was in fact instructed she was having no contact
Speaker 1: with codefendants in this case. This team half presented this
Speaker 1: was some information indicative of a violation of that sticulate
Speaker 1: that she did effect violate that court or some of
Speaker 1: Angelo Wagner's alleged orchestration was presented by agent scheiterer. At
Speaker 1: George's bail hearing last year, he testified about shoe prints
Speaker 1: that were found at a few of the crime scenes.
Speaker 1: This evidence points directly to Angela Wagner's role in the conspiracy.
Speaker 1: Exib eight and nine. These are the shoe impression prints
Speaker 1: that were lifted from Chris Rodan Senior's residence and those
Speaker 1: are shoe impresses that later determined to be from an
Speaker 1: a specific shoe that is determined to be sold by Walmart. Correct?
Speaker 1: And then did you ultimately execute a search warrant up
Speaker 1: on State out forty one? Yes, and you described to
Speaker 1: us what you were searching. There there were two pickup
Speaker 1: trucks and three trailers that were parked at that location
Speaker 1: that belonged to the Wagner family. Did you find a receipt? Yes,
Speaker 1: we did. There was a Walmart receipt. Read the receipt
Speaker 1: and Jake Wagner's okay, and specifically in a tub marked
Speaker 1: important days or something correct? Okay, what was the significance
Speaker 1: of that receipt? So this Walmart receipt is for the Waverley,
Speaker 1: Ohio Walmart on Emma Avenue. It is dated April seventh,
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen timestamped at sixteen fifty eight hours on there
Speaker 1: there are if they'd purchased up two Athletic brand tennis shoes,
Speaker 1: which is consistent with the shoes that we were looking for.
Speaker 1: And you indicated that Angela told made a statement to
Speaker 1: your fellow agents that she had purchased those shoes specifically
Speaker 1: for Jacob George. Correct. And you were asked if you've
Speaker 1: recovered those shoes, if you found those shoes, yes, and
Speaker 1: you did not correct. Correct, And isn't it true that
Speaker 1: Angela said that she had thrown those shoes away the
Speaker 1: very same day that she bought them. Yes, because the
Speaker 1: boys didn't like the shoes. Correct, but jaded George told
Speaker 1: they denied knowledge of the shoes ever seen. Correct. We're
Speaker 1: going to take a quick break here. We'll be back
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Speaker 1: fifty dollar bonus when you fund your account. That's code
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Speaker 1: conditions at uns dot coo. Altogether, it appears the prosecution
Speaker 1: has amassed an overwhelming amount of evidence against the Wagner family.
Speaker 1: Here is Agent Scheier telling George Wagner's attorney just how
Speaker 1: much audio evidence the state has at their disposal. What
Speaker 1: reportings do you have that you feel are relevant or
Speaker 1: in this sure some evidence here in these case, we
Speaker 1: have you know, approximately eight thousand recordings primarily of the
Speaker 1: Wiger individuals, the family. You know, we also have interviews
Speaker 1: where you know, I feel there was incriminating statements made
Speaker 1: within the interviews. They've got wire taps in this case,
Speaker 1: they have video surveillance evidence, they have, you know, countless
Speaker 1: interviews with people. The prosecution has said, you know, this
Speaker 1: is a voluminous file. They've said it takes up terabytes
Speaker 1: and terabytes. A terabyte is a huge amount of space
Speaker 1: on a computer, so that it kind of gives you
Speaker 1: an idea of what they've gathered. The sheer volume of
Speaker 1: evidence shocked even seasoned attorney Mike Allen. Here he is
Speaker 1: talking to Jeff you as an expert, Is that a
Speaker 1: high amount? Is that a normal amount of evidence? No,
Speaker 1: that's that's just astronomical. I would not have expected it
Speaker 1: to be that high. It's not normal at all. According
Speaker 1: to investigative reporter Jodi Barr, George and the other accused
Speaker 1: Wagners could have implicated at each other without even knowing.
Speaker 1: What we don't know is whether the Wagners gave statements
Speaker 1: and what statements they made to investigators before, during, or
Speaker 1: after the charge. We don't know what the contents of
Speaker 1: any intercepted phone calls as they've been in jail might
Speaker 1: being Who knows what the state of Ohio has as
Speaker 1: far as whether you know, statements made by one Wagner
Speaker 1: could almost assure a conviction of another. So how could
Speaker 1: we see the legal battles play out in the courtroom
Speaker 1: if the Wagners aside to go to trial. As it stands,
Speaker 1: Billy Angela and George Wagner have all been charged with
Speaker 1: eight counts of aggravated murder. If convicted, they, like Jake,
Speaker 1: will spend the rest of their lives in prison. Never
Speaker 1: have I seen anything even remotely close to this case.
Speaker 1: I've been involved in some bad ones, but this one
Speaker 1: is by far the worst. One of the many things
Speaker 1: that's so unique about this offense is you do have
Speaker 1: generations of family members just taken out, completely excused. Hard
Speaker 1: to imagine a fact scenario more bizarre than this one.
Speaker 1: It's it's so unique in so many ways. One of
Speaker 1: them is the enormous burden the trials will place on
Speaker 1: the legal teams and the Ohio criminal justice system. You're
Speaker 1: trying the case in a small county with limited resources.
Speaker 1: I don't know how they're going to do it. It's
Speaker 1: just going to be a logistical nightmare. Can the Wagner
Speaker 1: lawyers work together on the defense or does it all
Speaker 1: have to be separate? They can work together, and that
Speaker 1: happens sometimes when you have code defendants. I think at
Speaker 1: some point you run into some strategy problems. But to
Speaker 1: a certain extent they can. But the lawyer obviously has
Speaker 1: to zealously represent his client. But if it's in this
Speaker 1: client's best interest to work with the other lawyers, yeah,
Speaker 1: they definitely would. Witness testimony could also prove to be
Speaker 1: a challenge. You're going to have witness burnout because many
Speaker 1: most problem of the witnesses in one trial will be
Speaker 1: witnesses in the other. And you know that's a that's
Speaker 1: a burden upon the witnesses, But the prosecution has no
Speaker 1: choice that they have to go forward in that nature.
Speaker 1: Another obstacle seating a jury of twelve impartial Pike County residents.
Speaker 1: Here's Chris speaking to reporter James Pilcher. It's Ohio state
Speaker 1: law that you initially have to try and see a
Speaker 1: jury in the county the crime was committed. Correct. So
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner has already requested that her trial be moved
Speaker 1: out of Pike County, but under high legal procedures, you
Speaker 1: have to try to see the jury in the county
Speaker 1: where the crime was committed before you're allowed to move it.
Speaker 1: So they've got a pull from any jury pool of
Speaker 1: registered voters, will narrow it down to twelve plus a
Speaker 1: couple of alternates, and that process can take anywhere from
Speaker 1: three days to a week, depending on the complexity of
Speaker 1: the case. I mean, that's going to be really difficult,
Speaker 1: isn't it. I mean there's only I think what twenty
Speaker 1: seven twenty eight thousand residents in all of Pike County.
Speaker 1: You have to pick jurors for cases out of a
Speaker 1: jury pool that small. I would not be surprised to
Speaker 1: see them have to move some of these trials to
Speaker 1: another county. Again, here's Mike Allen. That's probably the judge's
Speaker 1: biggest headache in this case is to ultimately be able
Speaker 1: to see separate juries that can be fair both to
Speaker 1: the state and to the defense, because I think you'd
Speaker 1: be hard pressed to find any county in the state
Speaker 1: of Ohio that just was not inundated with media coverage
Speaker 1: about this. But it's important to keep this in mind.
Speaker 1: If a potential juror says under oath that, yes, I
Speaker 1: have seen things in the media about this, but I
Speaker 1: can divorce myself from those things and render a fair
Speaker 1: and impartial verdict based upon the evidence that we see
Speaker 1: from the witness stand, the testimony, and the instructions given
Speaker 1: by the judge. That's then a good and acceptable jury.
Speaker 1: And that's the only way that this case is going
Speaker 1: to work. Because unless you're living in some kind of
Speaker 1: a cave, I don't care who you are, you've heard
Speaker 1: about it, and you know you're just not going to
Speaker 1: be able to seek a jury of twelve in any
Speaker 1: of these cases where they've not heard anything about it.
Speaker 1: How are each of the cases likely to affect the other?
Speaker 1: Are there things that we should be keeping an eye
Speaker 1: on the first one that goes I think has the
Speaker 1: tougher road, and the guy going last or next to last,
Speaker 1: they're going to have an advantage by knowing which way
Speaker 1: the judge will rule on evidentiary motions and things of
Speaker 1: that nature. They'll have the benefit of watching the take
Speaker 1: so to speak, like a like a football coach would.
Speaker 1: But there could be one overlooked factor that determines the
Speaker 1: outcome of the cases, the drive of the prosecuting attorneys.
Speaker 1: When you see a case like this and see the
Speaker 1: position these young kids have been put in, what does
Speaker 1: that mean you feel when you see a case like this,
Speaker 1: it's just absolutely heartbreaking. It just is because you just
Speaker 1: know that that is going to permanently affect that child.
Speaker 1: There's no way that it couldn't. But a prosecutor's driven
Speaker 1: by justice for the victim and the victim's family. But
Speaker 1: if you have a particularly violent and hand his crime
Speaker 1: like you have here, it's tough. But as a prosecutor, honestly,
Speaker 1: it makes you want to work all the harder to
Speaker 1: get a conviction. And yeah, that's just the way it is.
Speaker 1: We've heard Special Agent Ryan Scheiderer mentioned witnesses who are
Speaker 1: close to the Wagner's and excerpts of his testimony. Since
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner's confession, we haven't heard anything from grandmother of
Speaker 1: the accused, Frederica Wagner. Last season, we talked about how
Speaker 1: she was arrested on obstruction of justice and perjury charges
Speaker 1: pretending to bulletproof est she purchased for her son, Billy Wagner.
Speaker 1: Prosecutors believe she purchased the best for him to use
Speaker 1: in the killings. Her charges were dropped after hearing in
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, as the prosecution feared not being able to
Speaker 1: try the case before the two hundred and seventy days
Speaker 1: Speedy Trial statute. But her case isn't closed yet, Frederica.
Speaker 1: They've indicated in court documents that they may charge her
Speaker 1: again with obstruction. Frederica Wagner has vehemently defended her family's innocence,
Speaker 1: but is it possible that she knows more about what
Speaker 1: happened the night of April twenty first, twenty sixteen than
Speaker 1: she's let on. Depending on what Jake Wagner knows and reveals,
Speaker 1: it's possible that grandmother Frederica Wagner could be looking at
Speaker 1: new charges. Do you know what Jake pleading guilty, how
Speaker 1: that will impact his grandmother, Well, they can always be
Speaker 1: reindicted if there's additional new evidence. He kind of seems
Speaker 1: to be like he's the key to this entire case.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I suppose it's possible. To our knowledge, Frederico
Speaker 1: Wagner has not been implicated in any other crimes, nor
Speaker 1: has she made any plea deals with the prosecution. But
Speaker 1: the same camp be said for the other grandmother who
Speaker 1: was charged in the case. Rita Newcome. Angela Wagner's mother,
Speaker 1: had initially told investigators that she had notarized and signed
Speaker 1: some custody documents for the child that Jake and Hannah
Speaker 1: shared in the event that they died. But then later
Speaker 1: as her trial approached, on the day of trial, all
Speaker 1: of the sudden, we were all out there ready to go,
Speaker 1: and the trial was canceled. And then a short time
Speaker 1: later she pleaded guilty, and in court the prosecution outlined
Speaker 1: how they said that Rita admitted that she had lied
Speaker 1: and that her daughter Angela, had asked her to lie
Speaker 1: about signing and notarizing those custody documents. Here's a statement
Speaker 1: Rita newcomade during her plea deal. As anyone promised you
Speaker 1: anything at all, or threatened you in any way at
Speaker 1: all in order to induce you to withdraw your former
Speaker 1: plea of not guilty entered to the original charge of
Speaker 1: obstructing justice I degree felly in count four, and to
Speaker 1: enter a plea of guilty to the amended charge of
Speaker 1: obstructing official business, a misdemeanor of the second degree. No,
Speaker 1: I just feel that it's not a good Christian thank
Speaker 1: to line, and I couldn't he put it anymore. This
Speaker 1: is all despite Angela Wagner's repeated attempts to further manipulate
Speaker 1: her mother. During court hearings for Angela's mother, Rita Newcomb,
Speaker 1: it was stated that Angela Wagner was on jail calls
Speaker 1: telling her mother, you don't have to testify against us.
Speaker 1: Mike Allen told Stephanie about the challenges Rita Newcomb's testimony
Speaker 1: could present if the trials move forward. If it's obvious
Speaker 1: to the trial judge that she doesn't want to be
Speaker 1: testifying to the state, the judge can and probably would,
Speaker 1: designate her as a hostile witness. What is a hostile
Speaker 1: witness if the prosecution has to call a witness to
Speaker 1: establish or help establish one of the elements of the offense,
Speaker 1: and that witnesses someone who's more sympathetic with the defense.
Speaker 1: In all likelihood than the judge would designate that person
Speaker 1: a hostile witness, giving the prosecutor the opportunity to ask
Speaker 1: leading questions. So it's not a matter whether they get
Speaker 1: up on the stand and act at crazy or act
Speaker 1: like an idiot. It's a matter of is this person,
Speaker 1: you know, going to cooperate with whoever is calling them.
Speaker 1: Another possibility is hearing from one of the long rumored
Speaker 1: informants we discussed last season. Mike Allen discussed the role
Speaker 1: informants usually play in cases like the Wagner's. Are you
Speaker 1: able to Mike just tell us what an informant is.
Speaker 1: It usually is a situation where they go to the
Speaker 1: police with some information. I mean police can seek out
Speaker 1: people too and you know, just say hey, you know,
Speaker 1: you tell us what you know about this, And I
Speaker 1: mean it happens both ways, but more often than not,
Speaker 1: it's it's the police know that somebody there's a good
Speaker 1: chance somebody would know something, and they seek that person out.
Speaker 1: But the thing of it is it's a confidential and
Speaker 1: reliable informant. So it has to be someone that you
Speaker 1: can build a case that they are reliable. At George
Speaker 1: Wagner's bond hearing last year, Agent Ryan Scheiderer told the
Speaker 1: court that one informant had disclosed a deadly plot that
Speaker 1: the Wagner family was planning on carrying out. It included
Speaker 1: then Attorney General Mike Dwine, Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader,
Speaker 1: and Scheiderer himself. There is a witness that testified that
Speaker 1: she was present when George, his brother, Jake, his mom,
Speaker 1: and his dad were basically organizing a retaliation plan should
Speaker 1: they get arrested and charged, specifically targeting myself and Dwine
Speaker 1: and share Reader. Okay, And according to the person who
Speaker 1: gave you this information, when was that stage summer of
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. Anette Levy heard Scheiderer's testimony that day. I
Speaker 1: think there's supposed to be a couple of informants in
Speaker 1: this case, and one of them, which is very interesting,
Speaker 1: happens to be a woman who married Jake Wagner when
Speaker 1: the family went to Alaska. Let's stop here for another
Speaker 1: quick break. We'll be back in a moment. At times,
Speaker 1: it is hard to not be discouraged. Climate change, abortion vans,
Speaker 1: rising inequality, attacks on the LGTBQ plus community. That's why
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Speaker 1: That's credomobile dot Com Code Podcast fifty. Interesting and relatable topics,
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Speaker 1: terms and conditions at unest dot COO. I'm Katie Lows.
Speaker 1: I am an actor, a podcast as host, a mom,
Speaker 1: and honestly very tired most of the time. And I'm
Speaker 1: Adam Shapiro, an actor, a pretzel maker, a dad, and
Speaker 1: Katie's husband. And we're so excited because we're the new
Speaker 1: hosts of Chasing Sleep, the production of Ruby Studios from
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm. Sleep affects your physical
Speaker 1: and mental performance, your family dynamics, and your quality of
Speaker 1: life as you grow older. Sleep can even affect dreaming life.
Speaker 1: The dreams come to us naturally, but we have to
Speaker 1: provide the action as individuals. So the first question that
Speaker 1: I always ask the dreamer is how are you feeling
Speaker 1: in the dream? The maths sad, glad or afraid. If
Speaker 1: we can narrow our emotions down to that, then we
Speaker 1: can take some action. We're going to talk to the
Speaker 1: experts who will help everyday people like us explore the
Speaker 1: mysteries behind our own sleep. So listen to Chasing Sleep
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Last season, we talked about the Wagner suspicious
Speaker 1: move to Alaska in June of twenty seventeen, at the
Speaker 1: height of the Roden murder investigation. They said this had
Speaker 1: been planned for some time. The boys were looking for
Speaker 1: good jobs up there, and then Jake met a woman
Speaker 1: at church. They became married. And in the discovery documents
Speaker 1: that detail what was handed over by the state to
Speaker 1: the Wagner attorneys, it states that there are several interviews
Speaker 1: between a Bureau of Criminal Investigations agent and the woman
Speaker 1: that Jake Wagner married while he was living in Alaska,
Speaker 1: So there are a number of interviews with her and
Speaker 1: recorded phone calls between this woman and Jake Wagner. What
Speaker 1: about the witnesses who were left alive at the scene,
Speaker 1: the Roden children who were spared that fateful night in
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. One of the kids was a three year
Speaker 1: old toddler. If that child witnessed the murder, I don't
Speaker 1: know if he said something when the investadors came in
Speaker 1: that pointed to possibly someone in the Wagner family, because
Speaker 1: they would have all known each other. You know, he's
Speaker 1: eight now. If he had any memory or had said
Speaker 1: something at the time when they found him. Is there
Speaker 1: any potential that he might be called as a witness
Speaker 1: although eight Now in Ohio, the rule is a child
Speaker 1: under the age of ten is presumed incompetent to testify. Now,
Speaker 1: if a judge does what they call a bordier of
Speaker 1: that potential witness and determines that the young person does
Speaker 1: know the difference between telling the truth and telling a lie,
Speaker 1: it's possible that the judge could permit the testimony. But boy,
Speaker 1: any defense attorney are going to fight like crazy to
Speaker 1: keep something like that out. It comes down to the reliability.
Speaker 1: Is it a reliable statement? Can you rely on something
Speaker 1: that a three year old saw and something that an
Speaker 1: eight year old, years after the fact is trying to explain.
Speaker 1: It's tough, not impossible to get a statement like that in,
Speaker 1: but I think highly unlikely. Mike Allen points it out
Speaker 1: a compelling entry in one of the discovery documents that
Speaker 1: implies another piece of the evidentiary puzzle. Is there one
Speaker 1: piece of evidence just based on what you've seen in
Speaker 1: terms of the discovery list, that is the aha or
Speaker 1: something that really surprised you. Yeah, there's definitely one thing,
Speaker 1: says trash Poll from June eighth, twenty and seventeen, and
Speaker 1: that can only mean one thing that DNA is involved
Speaker 1: in this case. What a trash poll is when somebody
Speaker 1: sets their trash out at the curb, they do not
Speaker 1: have a privacy interest anymore in that trash. So it's
Speaker 1: open season for the police if they want to go
Speaker 1: rooting through somebody's trash. And that's how in many instances,
Speaker 1: that's how law enforcement gets DNA evidence is from trash polls.
Speaker 1: That's the thing that closes the deal, right that that
Speaker 1: like closes the case essentially. That's the part of the
Speaker 1: CSI thing that you know, jurors watch and that's one
Speaker 1: thing that's accurate. I mean, if it gets into evidence,
Speaker 1: it's it's just devastating. Another revelation we're likely to witness
Speaker 1: at the trial is more information about the rodents autopsy reports.
Speaker 1: Though the documents will released months after the murders in
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, they were heavily redacted due to a gag
Speaker 1: utter imposed by the judge on the case. This is
Speaker 1: just a situation where you know, the trial judge who
Speaker 1: has to shepherd these trials through fairly doesn't want the
Speaker 1: public getting this information before trial. One of the reasons
Speaker 1: being you don't want a tainted jury pool, and of
Speaker 1: course prosecution they don't want to telegraph anything from that
Speaker 1: autopsy with respect to their strategy. Reporter James p Ulture
Speaker 1: told us what journalists were able to glean from the
Speaker 1: initial releases. He basically laid out where they were found,
Speaker 1: how many times they were shot. You know where they
Speaker 1: were shot, and you know they did list specifically where
Speaker 1: the kids, the young kids were found. So what can
Speaker 1: we expect from the full reports. A good autopsy, I'll
Speaker 1: tell you a lot about how the victim lived and
Speaker 1: how they died, and gets a pivotal critical piece of
Speaker 1: the investigation and possibly reveal information that maybe only the
Speaker 1: killer would know. But the most powerful part of the
Speaker 1: state's case could come from the prosecutor's recreation of the
Speaker 1: events of April twenty first, twenty sixteen. According to forensics
Speaker 1: expert Joseph Morgan, this narrative helps give a voice to
Speaker 1: each member of the slain family. It's something that we'll
Speaker 1: be revealing in real time as the trials for Billy
Speaker 1: Angela and George Wagner proceed. In the case of a
Speaker 1: masker in Piked and every single human remain every body
Speaker 1: that was there has an individual tale to be told.
Speaker 1: The prosecution is trying to paint a picture here and
Speaker 1: they're going to do that through these bodies there. That's
Speaker 1: going to be the vessel they're going to travel through here.
Speaker 1: And the more vibrant that the prosecution can make that picture,
Speaker 1: the more perfective. It shocks the conscience of just people
Speaker 1: that go about their normal day life. They don't expect
Speaker 1: this type of thing to happen, and it is pure.
Speaker 1: More on that next time. For more information on the
Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie
Speaker 1: Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County
Speaker 1: is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Sir Jared Aston.
Speaker 1: Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves.
Speaker 1: The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County is a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
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