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Curiosity Stream is 36 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: the place for history with monthly, annual, and bundled plans. 37 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: Find one for you at curiosity stream dot com. Welcome 38 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: to the Piked and Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and 39 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: Katie Studios. I gotta tell you from kind of a 40 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: visceral standpoint, when I heard the news that this kid 41 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: had rolled over on this case, one thing that kind 42 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: of came to mind for me is, you know, I 43 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: kind of envisioned his mother in almost a mob Barker 44 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: kind of way, that she's kind of the puppet master 45 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: that's controlling everything. He's sitting there all along, and suddenly 46 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: he has this lucid moment where he's out from under 47 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: that thob and he realizes, I'm going to get the 48 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: needle for all of this. This is the Piked and 49 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: Massacre Returned to Pike County Season two, Episode three, Wagner 50 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: Versus Wagner. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie 51 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. On April twenty second, 52 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, Jake Wagner pleaded guilty to eight aggravated 53 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: murder charges in the Rodent family massacre. As part of 54 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: his plea deal, he implicated his mother, Angela Wagner, father 55 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner, and brother George Wagner as co conspirators in 56 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: the killings. He's also agreeing to testify against his parents 57 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: and brother, who are also charged in these murders. Here's 58 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: reporter Anteinette Levy. I don't believe anybody knew he was 59 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: going to do this, so it's it's a pretty stunning development. 60 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: To see Jake Wagner, the youngest of the entire family, 61 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: who would you would think would be, you know, maybe 62 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: the most pliable in some respects because he is the youngest. 63 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: But to see him just break away from his family, 64 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's pretty interesting. The significance of 65 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner folding on his family cannot be overstated. But 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: what does it mean moving forward? Criminal defense attorney Mike 67 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: Allen told Stephanie that it could signal an impending legal 68 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: chess match in terms of Jake Wagner's admission of guilt, 69 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: I'm just curious about what that means altogether. He's confessed 70 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: to killing five of the eight rodents. Personally, is he 71 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: trying to save himself or trying to save his family? 72 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: You know, obviously, you know if he did five out 73 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: of eight, you still have three left, and you know 74 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: it'll come out who who actually did the killing on 75 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: those other three, But it was probably a strategic move 76 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: on the prosecutor's part not to let that out yet. 77 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: And you know a prosecutor is not going to show 78 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: his cards, or in this case, she Angie when't. She's 79 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: got three other defendants to try, so they're still going 80 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: to hold it close to the vest I think. Stephanie 81 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: asked reporter James Pilcher if there were still moves left 82 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: for Jake to play, Is it possible that he'll say 83 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: that Jacob could say I was in a very controlling environment. 84 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: My mother, Angela Wagner, controlled us, My father was a 85 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: bully and said I had to do these things, and 86 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: we were coerced into it. Is there any value in 87 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: that even? I mean, that's entirely possible, and some of 88 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: the reporting that's what we've heard. Leekal. The other thing 89 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: I will say is that maybe they're going after bigger 90 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: game than Jake, and they figured we'll cut this deal. Now, 91 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: he'll give us what we want and then we can 92 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: go get the mom and the dad. But clearly they 93 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: were going after the people who plotted it. This was 94 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: not Jake's idea, right, or at least not according to 95 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: the prosecutors. This was the family coming together. That's what 96 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: the prosecutors are after, is that, Okay, we get Jake 97 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: to help us, we get Jake to plead out. It 98 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: shows that this really did happen. Now we can go 99 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: after the people who actually planned it. On April twenty eighth, 100 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: just six days after Jake Wagner's hearing, his accused brother 101 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: George Wagner, walked into the Pike County Courthouse. The first 102 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: court hearing since last week's surprise plea deal and the 103 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: Pike County murder trials took place today. This hearing for 104 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: George Wagner was supposed to center on a few defense 105 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,119 Speaker 1: emotions involving discovery evidence. Annette Levy was on the scene 106 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: that day. She spoke to producer Chris Graves. He kind 107 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: of described the mood and what was going on. The 108 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: mood was a lot lighter than it had been in 109 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: the past. The Roden family is a little bit that 110 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: I saw of them. They just seemed happy for the 111 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 1: first time in a long time. And I think I 112 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: saw Hannah Gilly's mother and she actually seemed happy and 113 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: they can start to finally look fithered. So it was 114 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: just a much lighter mood, But you know George the Fourth, 115 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: obviously it wasn't a lighter mood for him. He looked 116 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: very stressed, He looked very thin. He doesn't look good. 117 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: You can see it on his face. In the aftermath 118 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: of Jake Wagner's shocking confession, many wondered how accused older 119 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: brother George Wagner's hearing would play out. We spoke at 120 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: length about George in the last two episodes. It was 121 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: at his wedding that the last known picture of the 122 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: Roden and Wagner families was taken. Also, George and his 123 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: ex wife dealt with eerily similar custody issues that would 124 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: foreshadow what would happen between victim Hannah Rowden and Jake Wagner. 125 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: His lawyer, Rick Nash, has been very assertive and maintained 126 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: that George the fourth there was no case against him, 127 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: that there was no evidence against him. But now he's 128 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: kind of having to swallow his pride a little bit. 129 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: I think and realize that there may be some really 130 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: good evidence tying his client to this and this emotion 131 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: hearing was for like all these boilerplate death penalty emotions, 132 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: death penalty's off the table now, people following the case, 133 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: wondered would George Wagner strike a plea deal as well. 134 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: My opinion of George the fourth is that he's kind 135 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: of is the weakest link in this family because he's 136 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: got the most to lose. He has a son who 137 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:48,119 Speaker 1: he loves dearly, and he wants to be with his son. 138 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: And so I was wondering, what's George going to do? 139 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: Instead of a guilty plead, the court heard something far 140 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: less dramatic. It took us in five minutes for George 141 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: wage to the fourth to ask for more time to 142 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: evaluate the situation. No, Judge, I don't think so. I 143 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: think everybody's agreed that, given recent events, that everybody needs 144 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: to step back and reassess. The hearing concluded with an 145 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: agreement to reschedule the motion for June twenty first, twenty one. 146 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: Though there were no bombshell developments, it's clear that the 147 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: next few weeks will be pivotal. George Wagner and his 148 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: accused parents, Angela and Billy Wagner must now decide how 149 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: they will proceed. Do you think that it's possible that 150 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,599 Speaker 1: now that Jake took the plea deal and admitted to 151 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: the murders that we may see Billy Angela and or 152 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: George doing this same thing. I think it's possible that 153 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: the others could plead out. But at the same time, 154 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: what's the point They have nothing to lose by going 155 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: to trial, because they either to plead out get life 156 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: in prison, or they roll the dice and go to 157 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: trial and maybe they can hang a jury. As Mike 158 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: g Allen points out, there's no one case that assures 159 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: a conviction. Is there any version of this where one 160 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: of them is found guilty and the other are found innocent. 161 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: It's possible, Yeah, I mean, it just it all depends 162 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: on what the individual juries want to do. Yeah, I mean, 163 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: that's very possible, and it's happened on trials that where 164 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: they're two defendants that have been severed, where one has 165 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: found guilty and the other one is not. You know, 166 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: different juries are different and it'll be a different jury 167 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: for every one of these trials. And lawyers will tell you, 168 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: especially criminal lawyers, you never know what is going to 169 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: happen with the jury. And I've been at this for 170 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: forty years and juries are becoming even more unpredictable. I 171 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: don't know why, but they are but in answer to 172 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: your question, yeah, that's a possibility. Last episode, we heard 173 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: Bureau of Criminal Investigation agent Ryan Scheiderer testify about the 174 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: Wagner's cult like family done Ammock. They're very close. They 175 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 1: lived together, they've always lived together. Their finances are intermingled, 176 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: the homeschool together, they raised their kids together. Everything is 177 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: done together. As well as we have an informant who 178 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: says that every decision within that family is made as 179 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: a family decision. Without any of the other Wagners coming 180 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: forward with plea deals, there are still a lot of 181 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: questions that need to be answered about the family that 182 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 1: is alleged to have carried out Ohio's most notorious crime. 183 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: It's worth noting that while Jake Wagner pleaded guilty, Angela 184 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: Billy and George Wagner have pleaded not guilty. The state 185 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: is kind of maintained that each person in this conspiracy 186 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: had their own role, They had their own kind of 187 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: part to play, and you know, it's going to be 188 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: interesting to see how strong the evidence is to support 189 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: their assertion that each person had a role in this conspiracy. 190 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: At this point, one thing is clear. Jake Wagner holds 191 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: the fate of his family in his hands, and the 192 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: united front the Wagner family has built is beginning to erode. 193 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: How it will all unfold is anyone's guests. Remember, we 194 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: don't know exactly what Jake said and how he said it. 195 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: We just know that he confessed and led them to evidence. 196 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: So there's still a lot we don't know based on 197 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: what the prosecution outlined in court. So let's take a 198 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 1: look at the evidence we know about based on what 199 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: we've heard through preliminary hearings over the past three years. 200 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: One of the most informative was a hearing for accused 201 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: brother George Wagner that took place on August thirty first, 202 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: twenty twenty. That day, George's attorneys requested that he be 203 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: allowed to post bail, arguing that there was no evidence 204 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: to tie him to the case, and natte Levy was 205 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: at the Pike County courthouse that day. It was actually 206 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: a fool's errand because in the state of Ohio, someone 207 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: charged with aggravated murder in which the death county is 208 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: sought can be held without bail automatically. There's really no 209 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: question about it. So they were kind of wanting to 210 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: I think get some more information about the evidence in 211 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: the case. The BCI agent on the case, the lead agent, 212 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: Ryan Scheiderer, took the stand and answered a series of 213 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: questions about the evidence in the case that they have 214 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: against George. Swear testimony. You were about gearge of its 215 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: three the whole pie. That special Agent Ryan Scheiterer of 216 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: the Bureau of Criminal Investigation taking his oath in court. 217 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: During the hearing, George Wagner's attorney tried to distance his 218 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: client from the crime and his accused family. His attorney 219 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: had set something to the effect of the evidence, you know, 220 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: if it tied anybody to this, it was Jake and 221 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: Angela and not George. What text or digital communications did 222 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: you find too or from him? If you think is 223 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: relevant specifically about text messages with George, I don't remember any. 224 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: Did you collect a cell phone from George? I don't 225 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: believe we ever collected George celler What connection does George 226 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: had to do with that Laftime? The device was registered 227 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: to Jake, but specifically Angela, who seemed to be the 228 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: primary user of that laptop. But there was some evidence 229 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: that implicated George Wagner along with his brother Jake in 230 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: the crimes. One of the most striking parts of Agent 231 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: Scheider's testimony had to do with the type of guns 232 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: used in the homicides. We know the three calibers of 233 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: firearms that were used to give them these murders, and 234 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: they were a twenty two caliber long rifle, a forty 235 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: caliber and a thirty caliber. Scheiderer went on to make 236 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: a direct correlation between the twenty two caliber shell casings 237 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: found at victims Dana Roden and Frankie Roden's homes and 238 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: the property owned by the Wagner family. Here's Agent Scheiterer 239 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: being questioned by Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa. We recovered twenty two 240 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: caliber shell casings and where we recovered those which at 241 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: two sixty Peterson Road, which was a property that was 242 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: owned by George Wager and his brother Jake. And were 243 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: those shell casings submitted to the last for comparison to 244 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: the shell casings that have been recovered from both Frankie's 245 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: and Dana's residences. Yes, and what was the opinion of 246 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: the The weapon that fired the shell casings at two 247 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: sixty Pierson Road also fired the shell casings at Anna's 248 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: and Dana's residence as well. As Frankie and Hannah Gillis residence. 249 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: So the same firearm had been fired on the same properties. Okay, 250 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: so the exact same gun, not just the same type 251 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: of the same firearms, okay. Forensic expert Joseph Morgan explained 252 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: the intricate science involved in tying a shell casing back 253 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: to a specific gun. The inside of a handgun like 254 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: this has got rifling. That means it's got lands, which 255 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: are kind of flat plateau looking formations. And also because 256 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: these are soft metal brass casings that are being ejected 257 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: once the round is fired, you have what are referred 258 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: to as extraction marks this spent case, and it leaves 259 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: these little marks that are unique to the interior housing 260 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: of this particular weapon. And even you can have a 261 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: weapon that rolls off the line with fifty other weapons 262 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: that are the same same model, but they're all going 263 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: to be unique at a microscopic level, and that's how 264 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: they tied back the projectile to a specific weapon. Another 265 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: suspicious item was found during a different search of the 266 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: same Wagner property. The police went back and they found 267 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: what the ATF says was likely used as a homemade 268 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: silencer for a gun agent Scheierer elaborated recovered a maglite 269 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: flashlight turned into a suppressor. Yeah, adapter at one end 270 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: that as a solid adapter, they closed in and they 271 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: at the other end you add a thread adapter and 272 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: it's designed to catch cleaning solvent when you're cleaning your firearm, 273 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: but it can easily be converted into a suppressor. They 274 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: determined that it was a suppressor as defined by federal statue, 275 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: been fired at least one time because they could see 276 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: a bull of striking inside the suppressor. Thing. That was 277 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: pretty interesting because that wasn't found. That was found in 278 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: I think October of twenty eighteen, right before the indictments 279 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: came out, and that property, the Peterson Road home had 280 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: been searched in May of twenty seventeen. I mean, when 281 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: I hear that, it sounds like someone told them about it. 282 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: We know, but Jake led them to the guns, the 283 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: murder weapons, the car used purchased and news and so 284 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: who knows. Maybe. During cross examination by George Wagner's attorney, 285 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: Agent Scheiterer highlighted some of the other evidence the state 286 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: has on George, including wiretap surveillance. Could you approximate to 287 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: the nearest hundred of how many hours you have regarding 288 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: this recording of George Wagner? Hours? Not really, but I 289 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: would say over one hundred, one hundred days, over a 290 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: hudred days, okay, And so I want you to focus 291 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: on those hundred days, and maybe your answer is the same, 292 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: but I'm going to ask it a different way. Could 293 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: you tell us over that one hundred days of recording 294 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: George Wagner one statement he made that you recorded that 295 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: ties him into this case. I mean, he never confessed, 296 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 1: if that's what you're getting at, but he made incriminating statements. 297 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: At a different hearing, George Wagner appeared in court for 298 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: an unusual request to be put in solitary confinement. Here's 299 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: Jeff speaking with Mike Gallen. What about George Wagner asking 300 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: for solitary confinement? What do you make of that? His 301 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: stated reason was that he wanted to be able to 302 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: study the Bible in peace. That's a little unusual when 303 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: inmates ask for solitary A lot of times, although they 304 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: may not say it, they're asking for that because they've 305 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: been threatened, and you know, they want to make sure 306 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: that they're as safe as they can be in jail. 307 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's hard, it's hard to know what's going 308 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: through his head. But I mean, either he's immersing himself 309 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: in the Holy Bible or somebody saying that they're going 310 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: to do something to him. Either way, his mental state 311 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: is probably not good. But when I read that, I 312 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: kind of wondered, is that the real reason? I mean, 313 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: you know, you just have to wonder what the motivation is. 314 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: Since his arrest in twenty eighteen, accused father Billy Wagner 315 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: has also staunchly maintained his innocence. Billy Wagner's attorney has 316 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: been very adamant that there's no evidence. There's no case 317 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: against Billy Wagner, but there's nothing. They have, nothing that 318 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,239 Speaker 1: ties him to this. Last year, Billy Wagner made an 319 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: audacious move to separate himself from the other members of 320 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: his family and moved his trial forward. He took it 321 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 1: upon himself to file a motion in court. It had 322 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: to do with his right to what's referred to as 323 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: a speedy trial and Ohio procedural rule stipulating that anyone 324 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: charged with a felony must be brought to trial within 325 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy days of their arrest while accused 326 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: father Billy Wagner, had initially waived his right to a 327 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: speedy trial. It seems he suddenly had a change of heart. 328 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: The court received a handwritten motion from Billy Wagner asking 329 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: that his right to a speedy trial be invoked and 330 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: that he withdraw his waiver of a speedy trial right. 331 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: He was pretty frustrated. I guess that he's sitting in jail. 332 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: He says he's innocent and was frustrated and submitted this 333 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: or to the court. But it was actually some fairly 334 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: good jailhouse lawyer. I'm assuming he had somebody in the 335 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: jail can write this for him and his attorneys. They 336 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: became aware of it and talked with him and withdrew 337 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: it immediately. Mike Allen gave us his professional opinion on 338 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: Billy's spun legal strategy. I don't care how small your 339 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: jail is, you're going to have jail house lawyers and 340 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: criminal defense attorneys instruct their clients. Do not listen to 341 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: the jail house lawyers. They don't know what they're talking about. 342 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: If they did, they wouldn't be where they are. So 343 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: that's every criminal defense lawyer's worst nightmare. Is when your 344 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: client files a motion without consulting the attorney, it's a 345 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: very stupid thing to do. So Billy Wagner's lawyer, I'm sure, 346 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: probably had some strong words for him for doing that. Well, 347 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: Billy and George Wagner have been busy filing legal motions 348 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: to help their cases. The same camp be said about 349 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: accused mother Angelo Wagner. Bob Craypence is what you would call, 350 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, the first chair on this case for her 351 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: defense team, and he's been very it's been very quiet 352 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: on that front. However, Angelo Wagner has appeared in court 353 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: for other At a hearing in twenty nineteen, Judge Randy 354 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: Deering revoked Angelo Wagner's mail and phone privileges after she 355 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: was caught trying to discuss case strategy with her family. 356 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: Here's her lawyer speaking in court that day, which stipulating begetage. 357 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: She was in fact instructed she was having no contact 358 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: with codefendants in this case. This team half presented this 359 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: was some information indicative of a violation of that sticulate 360 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: that she did effect violate that court or some of 361 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: Angelo Wagner's alleged orchestration was presented by agent scheiterer. At 362 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: George's bail hearing last year, he testified about shoe prints 363 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,719 Speaker 1: that were found at a few of the crime scenes. 364 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: This evidence points directly to Angela Wagner's role in the conspiracy. 365 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: Exib eight and nine. These are the shoe impression prints 366 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: that were lifted from Chris Rodan Senior's residence and those 367 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: are shoe impresses that later determined to be from an 368 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: a specific shoe that is determined to be sold by Walmart. Correct? 369 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: And then did you ultimately execute a search warrant up 370 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: on State out forty one? Yes, and you described to 371 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: us what you were searching. There there were two pickup 372 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: trucks and three trailers that were parked at that location 373 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: that belonged to the Wagner family. Did you find a receipt? Yes, 374 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: we did. There was a Walmart receipt. Read the receipt 375 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: and Jake Wagner's okay, and specifically in a tub marked 376 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 1: important days or something correct? Okay, what was the significance 377 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: of that receipt? So this Walmart receipt is for the Waverley, 378 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 1: Ohio Walmart on Emma Avenue. It is dated April seventh, 379 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen timestamped at sixteen fifty eight hours on there 380 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: there are if they'd purchased up two Athletic brand tennis shoes, 381 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: which is consistent with the shoes that we were looking for. 382 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: And you indicated that Angela told made a statement to 383 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: your fellow agents that she had purchased those shoes specifically 384 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 1: for Jacob George. Correct. And you were asked if you've 385 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: recovered those shoes, if you found those shoes, yes, and 386 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: you did not correct. Correct, And isn't it true that 387 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: Angela said that she had thrown those shoes away the 388 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: very same day that she bought them. Yes, because the 389 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: boys didn't like the shoes. Correct, but jaded George told 390 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: they denied knowledge of the shoes ever seen. Correct. We're 391 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: going to take a quick break here. We'll be back 392 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: in a moment. Like many of us, you might think 393 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: id y theft will never happen to you, but consider this. 394 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: There's a new identity theft victim every three seconds in 395 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 1: the US. 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What 457 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,479 Speaker 1: reportings do you have that you feel are relevant or 458 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: in this sure some evidence here in these case, we 459 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: have you know, approximately eight thousand recordings primarily of the 460 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: Wiger individuals, the family. You know, we also have interviews 461 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: where you know, I feel there was incriminating statements made 462 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: within the interviews. They've got wire taps in this case, 463 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: they have video surveillance evidence, they have, you know, countless 464 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: interviews with people. The prosecution has said, you know, this 465 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: is a voluminous file. They've said it takes up terabytes 466 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: and terabytes. A terabyte is a huge amount of space 467 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: on a computer, so that it kind of gives you 468 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: an idea of what they've gathered. The sheer volume of 469 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: evidence shocked even seasoned attorney Mike Allen. Here he is 470 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: talking to Jeff you as an expert, Is that a 471 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: high amount? Is that a normal amount of evidence? No, 472 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: that's that's just astronomical. I would not have expected it 473 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: to be that high. It's not normal at all. According 474 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: to investigative reporter Jodi Barr, George and the other accused 475 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: Wagners could have implicated at each other without even knowing. 476 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: What we don't know is whether the Wagners gave statements 477 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: and what statements they made to investigators before, during, or 478 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: after the charge. We don't know what the contents of 479 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: any intercepted phone calls as they've been in jail might 480 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: being Who knows what the state of Ohio has as 481 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: far as whether you know, statements made by one Wagner 482 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: could almost assure a conviction of another. So how could 483 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: we see the legal battles play out in the courtroom 484 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: if the Wagners aside to go to trial. As it stands, 485 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: Billy Angela and George Wagner have all been charged with 486 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: eight counts of aggravated murder. If convicted, they, like Jake, 487 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: will spend the rest of their lives in prison. Never 488 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: have I seen anything even remotely close to this case. 489 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: I've been involved in some bad ones, but this one 490 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: is by far the worst. One of the many things 491 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: that's so unique about this offense is you do have 492 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: generations of family members just taken out, completely excused. Hard 493 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: to imagine a fact scenario more bizarre than this one. 494 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: It's it's so unique in so many ways. One of 495 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: them is the enormous burden the trials will place on 496 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: the legal teams and the Ohio criminal justice system. You're 497 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: trying the case in a small county with limited resources. 498 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: I don't know how they're going to do it. It's 499 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: just going to be a logistical nightmare. Can the Wagner 500 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: lawyers work together on the defense or does it all 501 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: have to be separate? They can work together, and that 502 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: happens sometimes when you have code defendants. I think at 503 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: some point you run into some strategy problems. But to 504 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: a certain extent they can. But the lawyer obviously has 505 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: to zealously represent his client. But if it's in this 506 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: client's best interest to work with the other lawyers, yeah, 507 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: they definitely would. Witness testimony could also prove to be 508 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: a challenge. You're going to have witness burnout because many 509 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: most problem of the witnesses in one trial will be 510 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: witnesses in the other. And you know that's a that's 511 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: a burden upon the witnesses, But the prosecution has no 512 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: choice that they have to go forward in that nature. 513 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: Another obstacle seating a jury of twelve impartial Pike County residents. 514 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: Here's Chris speaking to reporter James Pilcher. It's Ohio state 515 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: law that you initially have to try and see a 516 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: jury in the county the crime was committed. Correct. So 517 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner has already requested that her trial be moved 518 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: out of Pike County, but under high legal procedures, you 519 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: have to try to see the jury in the county 520 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: where the crime was committed before you're allowed to move it. 521 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: So they've got a pull from any jury pool of 522 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: registered voters, will narrow it down to twelve plus a 523 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: couple of alternates, and that process can take anywhere from 524 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: three days to a week, depending on the complexity of 525 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: the case. I mean, that's going to be really difficult, 526 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 1: isn't it. I mean there's only I think what twenty 527 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: seven twenty eight thousand residents in all of Pike County. 528 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: You have to pick jurors for cases out of a 529 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: jury pool that small. I would not be surprised to 530 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: see them have to move some of these trials to 531 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: another county. Again, here's Mike Allen. That's probably the judge's 532 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: biggest headache in this case is to ultimately be able 533 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: to see separate juries that can be fair both to 534 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: the state and to the defense, because I think you'd 535 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: be hard pressed to find any county in the state 536 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: of Ohio that just was not inundated with media coverage 537 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: about this. But it's important to keep this in mind. 538 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: If a potential juror says under oath that, yes, I 539 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: have seen things in the media about this, but I 540 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: can divorce myself from those things and render a fair 541 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: and impartial verdict based upon the evidence that we see 542 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: from the witness stand, the testimony, and the instructions given 543 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: by the judge. That's then a good and acceptable jury. 544 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: And that's the only way that this case is going 545 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: to work. Because unless you're living in some kind of 546 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: a cave, I don't care who you are, you've heard 547 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: about it, and you know you're just not going to 548 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: be able to seek a jury of twelve in any 549 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: of these cases where they've not heard anything about it. 550 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: How are each of the cases likely to affect the other? 551 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: Are there things that we should be keeping an eye 552 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: on the first one that goes I think has the 553 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: tougher road, and the guy going last or next to last, 554 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: they're going to have an advantage by knowing which way 555 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: the judge will rule on evidentiary motions and things of 556 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: that nature. They'll have the benefit of watching the take 557 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: so to speak, like a like a football coach would. 558 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: But there could be one overlooked factor that determines the 559 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: outcome of the cases, the drive of the prosecuting attorneys. 560 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: When you see a case like this and see the 561 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: position these young kids have been put in, what does 562 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: that mean you feel when you see a case like this, 563 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: it's just absolutely heartbreaking. It just is because you just 564 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: know that that is going to permanently affect that child. 565 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: There's no way that it couldn't. But a prosecutor's driven 566 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: by justice for the victim and the victim's family. But 567 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: if you have a particularly violent and hand his crime 568 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: like you have here, it's tough. But as a prosecutor, honestly, 569 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: it makes you want to work all the harder to 570 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: get a conviction. And yeah, that's just the way it is. 571 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: We've heard Special Agent Ryan Scheiderer mentioned witnesses who are 572 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: close to the Wagner's and excerpts of his testimony. Since 573 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner's confession, we haven't heard anything from grandmother of 574 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: the accused, Frederica Wagner. Last season, we talked about how 575 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,240 Speaker 1: she was arrested on obstruction of justice and perjury charges 576 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: pretending to bulletproof est she purchased for her son, Billy Wagner. 577 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: Prosecutors believe she purchased the best for him to use 578 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: in the killings. Her charges were dropped after hearing in 579 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, as the prosecution feared not being able to 580 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: try the case before the two hundred and seventy days 581 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: Speedy Trial statute. But her case isn't closed yet, Frederica. 582 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: They've indicated in court documents that they may charge her 583 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 1: again with obstruction. Frederica Wagner has vehemently defended her family's innocence, 584 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: but is it possible that she knows more about what 585 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: happened the night of April twenty first, twenty sixteen than 586 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: she's let on. Depending on what Jake Wagner knows and reveals, 587 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: it's possible that grandmother Frederica Wagner could be looking at 588 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: new charges. Do you know what Jake pleading guilty, how 589 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: that will impact his grandmother, Well, they can always be 590 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: reindicted if there's additional new evidence. He kind of seems 591 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: to be like he's the key to this entire case. 592 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, I suppose it's possible. To our knowledge, Frederico 593 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: Wagner has not been implicated in any other crimes, nor 594 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: has she made any plea deals with the prosecution. But 595 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: the same camp be said for the other grandmother who 596 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: was charged in the case. Rita Newcome. Angela Wagner's mother, 597 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,800 Speaker 1: had initially told investigators that she had notarized and signed 598 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: some custody documents for the child that Jake and Hannah 599 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: shared in the event that they died. But then later 600 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: as her trial approached, on the day of trial, all 601 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: of the sudden, we were all out there ready to go, 602 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: and the trial was canceled. And then a short time 603 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: later she pleaded guilty, and in court the prosecution outlined 604 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: how they said that Rita admitted that she had lied 605 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: and that her daughter Angela, had asked her to lie 606 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: about signing and notarizing those custody documents. Here's a statement 607 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: Rita newcomade during her plea deal. As anyone promised you 608 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: anything at all, or threatened you in any way at 609 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: all in order to induce you to withdraw your former 610 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: plea of not guilty entered to the original charge of 611 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: obstructing justice I degree felly in count four, and to 612 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: enter a plea of guilty to the amended charge of 613 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: obstructing official business, a misdemeanor of the second degree. No, 614 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,879 Speaker 1: I just feel that it's not a good Christian thank 615 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: to line, and I couldn't he put it anymore. This 616 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: is all despite Angela Wagner's repeated attempts to further manipulate 617 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: her mother. During court hearings for Angela's mother, Rita Newcomb, 618 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: it was stated that Angela Wagner was on jail calls 619 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: telling her mother, you don't have to testify against us. 620 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: Mike Allen told Stephanie about the challenges Rita Newcomb's testimony 621 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: could present if the trials move forward. If it's obvious 622 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: to the trial judge that she doesn't want to be 623 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: testifying to the state, the judge can and probably would, 624 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: designate her as a hostile witness. What is a hostile 625 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: witness if the prosecution has to call a witness to 626 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: establish or help establish one of the elements of the offense, 627 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: and that witnesses someone who's more sympathetic with the defense. 628 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: In all likelihood than the judge would designate that person 629 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: a hostile witness, giving the prosecutor the opportunity to ask 630 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: leading questions. So it's not a matter whether they get 631 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: up on the stand and act at crazy or act 632 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,720 Speaker 1: like an idiot. It's a matter of is this person, 633 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: you know, going to cooperate with whoever is calling them. 634 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: Another possibility is hearing from one of the long rumored 635 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: informants we discussed last season. Mike Allen discussed the role 636 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: informants usually play in cases like the Wagner's. Are you 637 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 1: able to Mike just tell us what an informant is. 638 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: It usually is a situation where they go to the 639 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 1: police with some information. I mean police can seek out 640 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: people too and you know, just say hey, you know, 641 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: you tell us what you know about this, And I 642 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: mean it happens both ways, but more often than not, 643 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: it's it's the police know that somebody there's a good 644 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,879 Speaker 1: chance somebody would know something, and they seek that person out. 645 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: But the thing of it is it's a confidential and 646 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: reliable informant. So it has to be someone that you 647 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: can build a case that they are reliable. At George 648 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: Wagner's bond hearing last year, Agent Ryan Scheiderer told the 649 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: court that one informant had disclosed a deadly plot that 650 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: the Wagner family was planning on carrying out. It included 651 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: then Attorney General Mike Dwine, Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader, 652 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: and Scheiderer himself. There is a witness that testified that 653 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,760 Speaker 1: she was present when George, his brother, Jake, his mom, 654 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: and his dad were basically organizing a retaliation plan should 655 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: they get arrested and charged, specifically targeting myself and Dwine 656 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: and share Reader. Okay, And according to the person who 657 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: gave you this information, when was that stage summer of 658 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. Anette Levy heard Scheiderer's testimony that day. I 659 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: think there's supposed to be a couple of informants in 660 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: this case, and one of them, which is very interesting, 661 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 1: happens to be a woman who married Jake Wagner when 662 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 1: the family went to Alaska. Let's stop here for another 663 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:27,760 Speaker 1: quick break. We'll be back in a moment. At times, 664 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: it is hard to not be discouraged. Climate change, abortion vans, 665 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 1: rising inequality, attacks on the LGTBQ plus community. That's why 666 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,440 Speaker 1: you march vote, write your congress person and try to 667 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: do your part. One small thing you can do is 668 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,880 Speaker 1: switch your mobile phone to Credo Mobile. Credo Mobile is 669 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: America's only progressive mobile phone company, and they donate a 670 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: portion of their proceeds to progressive nonprofit groups each month 671 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: like March for Our Lives, Plans, Parenthood, the Transgender Law Center, 672 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: and so many more. When you join Credo Mobile, you're 673 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: not just getting service on the nation's best network. 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Wow, thanks Grandpa, but he'll never forget how 692 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: you invested in his future with the unst app. Wow, 693 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: thanks Grandpa. Don't just give them any gift, give them 694 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,360 Speaker 1: a gift that can grow with them. Invite grandparents and 695 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,839 Speaker 1: family friends to contribute to your child's future with the unstapp. 696 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: Unst is an investment account for kids that makes it 697 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: easy to gift funds that can be used for college tuition, 698 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: their first home, and more. Just by sharing the link 699 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: or include a UNSQR code on party invitations for birthdays 700 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: and holidays. For a limited time, download the unst stapp 701 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: and use the code I Heart fifty at sign up 702 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: to receive a fifty dollars bonus when you fund your account. 703 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,399 Speaker 1: That's code I Heart fifty when you sign up at 704 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,439 Speaker 1: une st dot coo for a fifty dollars bonus. See 705 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: terms and conditions at unest dot COO. I'm Katie Lows. 706 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: I am an actor, a podcast as host, a mom, 707 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 1: and honestly very tired most of the time. And I'm 708 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: Adam Shapiro, an actor, a pretzel maker, a dad, and 709 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: Katie's husband. And we're so excited because we're the new 710 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: hosts of Chasing Sleep, the production of Ruby Studios from 711 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,760 Speaker 1: iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm. Sleep affects your physical 712 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: and mental performance, your family dynamics, and your quality of 713 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: life as you grow older. Sleep can even affect dreaming life. 714 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: The dreams come to us naturally, but we have to 715 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: provide the action as individuals. So the first question that 716 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: I always ask the dreamer is how are you feeling 717 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: in the dream? The maths sad, glad or afraid. If 718 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 1: we can narrow our emotions down to that, then we 719 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: can take some action. We're going to talk to the 720 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: experts who will help everyday people like us explore the 721 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: mysteries behind our own sleep. So listen to Chasing Sleep 722 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,759 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get 723 00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Last season, we talked about the Wagner suspicious 724 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: move to Alaska in June of twenty seventeen, at the 725 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: height of the Roden murder investigation. They said this had 726 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: been planned for some time. The boys were looking for 727 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 1: good jobs up there, and then Jake met a woman 728 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: at church. They became married. And in the discovery documents 729 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,800 Speaker 1: that detail what was handed over by the state to 730 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: the Wagner attorneys, it states that there are several interviews 731 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: between a Bureau of Criminal Investigations agent and the woman 732 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,360 Speaker 1: that Jake Wagner married while he was living in Alaska, 733 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: So there are a number of interviews with her and 734 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:49,560 Speaker 1: recorded phone calls between this woman and Jake Wagner. What 735 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: about the witnesses who were left alive at the scene, 736 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: the Roden children who were spared that fateful night in 737 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. One of the kids was a three year 738 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: old toddler. If that child witnessed the murder, I don't 739 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,439 Speaker 1: know if he said something when the investadors came in 740 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 1: that pointed to possibly someone in the Wagner family, because 741 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,439 Speaker 1: they would have all known each other. You know, he's 742 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,479 Speaker 1: eight now. If he had any memory or had said 743 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: something at the time when they found him. Is there 744 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,320 Speaker 1: any potential that he might be called as a witness 745 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: although eight Now in Ohio, the rule is a child 746 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 1: under the age of ten is presumed incompetent to testify. Now, 747 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:34,319 Speaker 1: if a judge does what they call a bordier of 748 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,719 Speaker 1: that potential witness and determines that the young person does 749 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 1: know the difference between telling the truth and telling a lie, 750 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: it's possible that the judge could permit the testimony. But boy, 751 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,360 Speaker 1: any defense attorney are going to fight like crazy to 752 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,360 Speaker 1: keep something like that out. It comes down to the reliability. 753 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: Is it a reliable statement? Can you rely on something 754 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: that a three year old saw and something that an 755 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,719 Speaker 1: eight year old, years after the fact is trying to explain. 756 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,759 Speaker 1: It's tough, not impossible to get a statement like that in, 757 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,799 Speaker 1: but I think highly unlikely. Mike Allen points it out 758 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,360 Speaker 1: a compelling entry in one of the discovery documents that 759 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,839 Speaker 1: implies another piece of the evidentiary puzzle. Is there one 760 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: piece of evidence just based on what you've seen in 761 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 1: terms of the discovery list, that is the aha or 762 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,959 Speaker 1: something that really surprised you. Yeah, there's definitely one thing, 763 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,399 Speaker 1: says trash Poll from June eighth, twenty and seventeen, and 764 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 1: that can only mean one thing that DNA is involved 765 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 1: in this case. What a trash poll is when somebody 766 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,719 Speaker 1: sets their trash out at the curb, they do not 767 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:50,040 Speaker 1: have a privacy interest anymore in that trash. So it's 768 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: open season for the police if they want to go 769 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:58,360 Speaker 1: rooting through somebody's trash. And that's how in many instances, 770 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,279 Speaker 1: that's how law enforcement gets DNA evidence is from trash polls. 771 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: That's the thing that closes the deal, right that that 772 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 1: like closes the case essentially. That's the part of the 773 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: CSI thing that you know, jurors watch and that's one 774 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: thing that's accurate. I mean, if it gets into evidence, 775 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:22,760 Speaker 1: it's it's just devastating. Another revelation we're likely to witness 776 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: at the trial is more information about the rodents autopsy reports. 777 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,200 Speaker 1: Though the documents will released months after the murders in 778 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, they were heavily redacted due to a gag 779 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,680 Speaker 1: utter imposed by the judge on the case. This is 780 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,400 Speaker 1: just a situation where you know, the trial judge who 781 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: has to shepherd these trials through fairly doesn't want the 782 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: public getting this information before trial. One of the reasons 783 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,080 Speaker 1: being you don't want a tainted jury pool, and of 784 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:55,160 Speaker 1: course prosecution they don't want to telegraph anything from that 785 00:47:55,400 --> 00:48:00,279 Speaker 1: autopsy with respect to their strategy. Reporter James p Ulture 786 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,400 Speaker 1: told us what journalists were able to glean from the 787 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,319 Speaker 1: initial releases. He basically laid out where they were found, 788 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,359 Speaker 1: how many times they were shot. You know where they 789 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 1: were shot, and you know they did list specifically where 790 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: the kids, the young kids were found. So what can 791 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: we expect from the full reports. A good autopsy, I'll 792 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 1: tell you a lot about how the victim lived and 793 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 1: how they died, and gets a pivotal critical piece of 794 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,960 Speaker 1: the investigation and possibly reveal information that maybe only the 795 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: killer would know. But the most powerful part of the 796 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,279 Speaker 1: state's case could come from the prosecutor's recreation of the 797 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,160 Speaker 1: events of April twenty first, twenty sixteen. According to forensics 798 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,319 Speaker 1: expert Joseph Morgan, this narrative helps give a voice to 799 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 1: each member of the slain family. It's something that we'll 800 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 1: be revealing in real time as the trials for Billy 801 00:48:54,120 --> 00:49:00,080 Speaker 1: Angela and George Wagner proceed. In the case of a 802 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: masker in Piked and every single human remain every body 803 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:12,400 Speaker 1: that was there has an individual tale to be told. 804 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,400 Speaker 1: The prosecution is trying to paint a picture here and 805 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: they're going to do that through these bodies there. That's 806 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,279 Speaker 1: going to be the vessel they're going to travel through here. 807 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 1: And the more vibrant that the prosecution can make that picture, 808 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,880 Speaker 1: the more perfective. It shocks the conscience of just people 809 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,040 Speaker 1: that go about their normal day life. They don't expect 810 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,680 Speaker 1: this type of thing to happen, and it is pure. 811 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:46,400 Speaker 1: More on that next time. For more information on the 812 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,960 Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie 813 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 1: Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County 814 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,680 Speaker 1: is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. 815 00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,200 Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Sir Jared Aston. 816 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:05,240 Speaker 1: Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. 817 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,000 Speaker 1: The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County is a 818 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,480 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 819 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,200 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 820 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,920 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. Since her role as White House Correspondent, 821 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,759 Speaker 1: Caitlyn Collins has never been afraid to dictie. She's a reliable, 822 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: deeply sourced reporter and is always willing to hold the 823 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,920 Speaker 1: powerful accountable. On her new CNN show, The Source with 824 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,759 Speaker 1: Caitlyn Collins, Caitlyn is bringing that tenacious spirit to primetime. 825 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 1: She's chasing the facts, connecting with her rolodex of sources, 826 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,960 Speaker 1: and pulling the threads of a story together right up 827 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: to the minute she goes live, so viewers are getting 828 00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:48,000 Speaker 1: the very latest The Source with Caitlyn Collins weeknights at 829 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:52,000 Speaker 1: nine pm Eastern only on SANNA. 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