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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, and welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Lee Klaskau, Senior Freight Transportation Logistics analyst

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg Intelligence, Bloomberg's in house research arm. Before diving

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Speaker 1: in a public service announcement. Your support is instrumental in

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Speaker 1: our ability to keep bringing great guests, great content to you.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't already, please take a moment to follow,

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Speaker 1: rate and share the podcast. We appreciate your support. So

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited about today We're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: the crew tanker market with Swain Max nist Haarfeld, President

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Speaker 1: and CEO of DHT, a VLCC operator. Swain is an

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Speaker 1: industry veteran with over thirty years experience in the marine

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Speaker 1: shipping industry and it has been with DHD since twenty ten.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Lee, appreciate it to be on

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Speaker 2: your podcast.

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Speaker 1: So vlccs, I know what it is, what it is,

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Speaker 1: but could you give our audience a little sense what

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Speaker 1: is a VLCC vessel?

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Speaker 2: So the acronym describes it's a very large crude carrier

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Speaker 2: and these are the biggest tankers that floats around, also

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Speaker 2: referred to as supertankers. Each hip carried two million barrels

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Speaker 2: of oil, so it's a significant size of cargo.

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Speaker 1: All right, great, And so what markets do VLCs typically serve?

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Speaker 2: So they transport feedstock into the oil refiners and oil

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Speaker 2: is typically produced for this purpose in the Middle East,

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Speaker 2: also in West Africa, increasingly in Latin America and also

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Speaker 2: now of course in the US. And then we bring

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Speaker 2: these cargoes to the refiners and the biggest customers are

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Speaker 2: typically in Asia.

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Speaker 1: Okay, are your customers the refineries? Who are your customers?

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Speaker 2: So it's a mix. It's the integrated oil companies or

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Speaker 2: big oil or oil majors as they typically refer to.

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Speaker 2: It's also national oil companies such as Petrobrass for instance

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Speaker 2: in South America. But it is also directly with the

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Speaker 2: refiners if they buy oil on a delivered basis or

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Speaker 2: whether they don't buy it on the keyside from the

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Speaker 2: exporting side. So we have a mix of clients.

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Speaker 1: And do these ships operate in the spot market the

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Speaker 1: contractual market? What's the mix there?

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Speaker 2: So the typical leach the sea market is a spot market.

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Speaker 2: There is also some term business. We currently have twenty

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Speaker 2: percent on term contracts but we also have something which

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Speaker 2: is referred to as contract of a fraightments That might

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Speaker 2: be volume contracts, but without a fixed freight rate, is

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Speaker 2: more market related.

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Speaker 1: All right, great, and given where rates are today, business

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Speaker 1: is good.

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Speaker 2: Business is very good, and we are on a very

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Speaker 2: exciting trajectory, I believe.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And can you talk about, you know, where freight

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Speaker 1: rates were even before you know what's going on in

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Speaker 1: the Red Sea, because obviously that's had a positive impact

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Speaker 1: on ten miles. So can you talk about kind of

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Speaker 1: supply demand dynamics in the VLCC market even before we

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Speaker 1: had the issue in the Red Sea.

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Speaker 2: So last year, are fleet on average in the spot

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Speaker 2: market made just above fifty thousand dollars a day. And

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Speaker 2: to put that in a historical context, the average earnings

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Speaker 2: over the last twenty five years was forty one thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars a day. It was a good market even without

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Speaker 2: the disruptions in the Red Seed. I think it's fair

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Speaker 2: to add that VCS is not really a very active,

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Speaker 2: you know, modor transportation in the Red Sea. A VLCC

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Speaker 2: is so big it cannot go fully loaded through the

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Speaker 2: zeros Canal. It can only carry about half its cargo

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Speaker 2: so it's not so often that this is being done.

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Speaker 2: There's been some exports from Saudi Arabia on the Red

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Speaker 2: Sea side, but that is now sort of shut down

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Speaker 2: in an air term, I think, so that's shifted now

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Speaker 2: over to the middle eastern side of the other side

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Speaker 2: of the peninsula. So freight rates for vccs was not

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Speaker 2: really that impacted by and by these incidents or events

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Speaker 2: taking place in the rates. It's more for smaller ships

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Speaker 2: that have been more active trading that area. So we

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Speaker 2: had a very good market despite these did these events

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Speaker 2: taking place.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, you mentioned they weren't directly impacted

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Speaker 1: by because they can't traverse into the Sewe's canal fully loaded.

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Speaker 1: But has it been like a waterfall effect, so the

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Speaker 1: smaller ships maybe you know, are getting taken up and

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Speaker 1: so that so people are just looking for capacity anywhere

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Speaker 1: they can get it.

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Speaker 2: So I wouldn't say it's sort of a Sero hundred

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Speaker 2: game because there's been some exports from the Red Sea

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Speaker 2: and you would occasionally you could go up to the

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Speaker 2: Zeus Canal, you can unload half the cargo, have it

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Speaker 2: transated in pipeline along the ship and then reloaded on

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Speaker 2: the other side of the canal, but it's not a

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Speaker 2: big part of the markets. So of course, some smaller

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Speaker 2: ships the Zoo's Maxis in particular, that are you know,

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Speaker 2: named after being able to go fully loaded through the

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Speaker 2: Zeus Canal. Some of those ships are now being diverted

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Speaker 2: around South Africa and of course the expanding transportation distances

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Speaker 2: in general, so the whole tanker fleet is sort of

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Speaker 2: reducing its productivity in a sort of fair way to

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Speaker 2: put it, because it just longer transportation distances. But I

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Speaker 2: think the core of the VALSC market is that the

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Speaker 2: Atlantic basin is essentially long oil. It doesn't need all

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Speaker 2: the oil as being produced in West Africa and the

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Speaker 2: North Sea in the US and Latin America. So this

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Speaker 2: oil is increasingly going to Asia and is really the

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Speaker 2: trade for the val c c's big ships. All the

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Speaker 2: receivers have got big ports, they prefer big ships, and

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Speaker 2: these transportation distances are expanding.

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Speaker 1: And when going to Asia, is its primarily China or

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Speaker 1: is it mixed all across the region.

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Speaker 2: So China is now the biggest importer of oil in

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Speaker 2: Asia and also in the world, but of course also

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Speaker 2: we go to Japan, Korea, Vietnam, you know, Taiwan and

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Speaker 2: other countries. So there's also refiners in Southeast Asia in

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Speaker 2: Thailand and Singapore and also India. All these countries take

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Speaker 2: leaves disease.

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Speaker 1: So you know, the stuff that's going on the Red

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Speaker 1: Sea has had a pretty big impact on shipping. How

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Speaker 1: has it impacted DHD directly or has it not? Were

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Speaker 1: you I mean, maybe you don't go to the Sewes Canal,

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Speaker 1: but you know you might get oil on that side

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Speaker 1: of the Seuez Canal, So has it been an impact?

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Speaker 1: Are you avoiding the area altogether?

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Speaker 2: So now we are avoiding the area. But when these events,

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Speaker 2: so the first incidents took place, we had two ships

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Speaker 2: fully loaded in the Red Sea, so and they were

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Speaker 2: coming out and they were heading to Asia with oil.

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Speaker 2: So of course our whole system security upper you know,

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Speaker 2: structures went on sort of the highest level, and we

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Speaker 2: were focused on getting our crew, our customer's cargon, our

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Speaker 2: ships of course safely out. So you know, we had

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Speaker 2: twenty four to seven focused on this over those few

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Speaker 2: days it took to get them out. We did this safely,

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Speaker 2: no no incidents for us. But since that it's sort

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Speaker 2: of easy decision to avoid the area in totality for us,

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Speaker 2: we sure you don't want to take unnecessary risks. So

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Speaker 2: and I think in generale in life is not too

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Speaker 2: difficult to do the right thing either.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and since you're avoiding the area, are you

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Speaker 1: seeing a big jump in your insurance or it's pretty

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Speaker 1: much been the same because you are avoiding the area.

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Speaker 2: So there's a typical insurance called warrisk insurance, and that

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Speaker 2: is defined by which area you will trade your ship too.

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Speaker 2: So since you're not going to the area, the insurance

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Speaker 2: is not really being impacted. But if we wanted to

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Speaker 2: trade to the Red Sea, and of course it will

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Speaker 2: be a significant additional premium to be paid. The market

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Speaker 2: works in a way that the customers normally will have

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Speaker 2: to pick up that additional insurance cost, so of course

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Speaker 2: it will impact the cost of the product to the

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Speaker 2: end user, but not directly for the shipowner.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like we're in early innings of a

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Speaker 1: long term rate cycle, positive rate cycle for the tanker

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Speaker 1: industry because the supply and demand dynamics that are going on.

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Speaker 1: You know, in past you've been in the industry for

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Speaker 1: over thirty years, you've seen booms, You've seen bus How

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Speaker 1: long do you think this current cycle can be Given

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Speaker 1: where the order book is today, I.

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Speaker 2: Think we are on our way into a recovery that

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Speaker 2: will have some legs. And now in my career, I

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Speaker 2: think I've only been this constructive on the market once before,

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Speaker 2: and that was in two thousand and three and we

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Speaker 2: had a fantastic period from four to eight. I think

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Speaker 2: the forces that play today is that we have, you know,

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Speaker 2: continued increase in oil demount expected this year to grow

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Speaker 2: by about one and a half percent and continue another

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Speaker 2: one and a half percent next year. This doesn't maybe

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Speaker 2: sound so much for people, but if you look at

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Speaker 2: global demount today is rough one hundred and two million

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Speaker 2: barrels per day. Forty percent of this is seaborne, So

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Speaker 2: one and a half percent growth of which the predominant

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Speaker 2: part is going to be seaborne, is a meaningful add

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Speaker 2: on to the sort of forty two million barrels per

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Speaker 2: that is currently being transported by a bio s. So

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Speaker 2: this is the one pillar. The second pillar is that

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Speaker 2: the transportation distances are increasing. As I alluded to, there's

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Speaker 2: more oil coming from the Atlantic, and we've seen over

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Speaker 2: the last now year and a half that Opek has

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Speaker 2: been cutting production, and my view on this is that

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Speaker 2: they recognize that the producers in Atlantic are not going away.

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Speaker 2: They cannot outcompete them, so they have to allocate some

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Speaker 2: market share to these producers to keep prices where they are.

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Speaker 2: And I think Opek with Sali a UPco in particular,

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Speaker 2: are very focused on price. So this is adding demand

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Speaker 2: for our fleet or for the fleet in general. And

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Speaker 2: this comes at the time when there's no fleet growth

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Speaker 2: and a rapidly aging fleet. So these are two forces

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Speaker 2: are pulling in opposite directions and creating a very constructive

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Speaker 2: market scenario. And I think it will take quite a

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Speaker 2: long time to actually destroy that if you were to

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Speaker 2: overbuild it, you know, oversupply the market.

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Speaker 1: And it takes a long time to build a ship, right,

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Speaker 1: that's correct. How long does it take between when you

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Speaker 1: order a ship until you get it delivered?

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Speaker 2: So today, if you call sort of the big shipyards

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Speaker 2: that build their disease, the ship will be delivered in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty seven, okay, and probably in the middle and

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Speaker 2: increasing the second half. So it takes a good three

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Speaker 2: years to have it delivered. And this is the result

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Speaker 2: of the shipyards that can build these big ships that

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Speaker 2: are very busy building gas carriers for LNG in particular,

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Speaker 2: but also for LPG and other gas types. So there's

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Speaker 2: also lead time on equipment because capacity after the financial

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Speaker 2: crisis was built down in a way, and these equipment

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Speaker 2: manufacturers are also involved in many other industries to deliver equipment,

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Speaker 2: so it is not just the construction time itself takes

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Speaker 2: less than the year, but to get all the kit together,

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Speaker 2: to get the ship delivered and have space and the

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Speaker 2: big dry docks to build them, that takes a long time.

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Speaker 1: Today, you know when someone buys a new share, whether

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Speaker 1: it's DHD or another player. Obviously every scenario is different,

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Speaker 1: but like roughly, what does someone have to put down

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Speaker 1: and what percentage do they finance when they're buying a

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Speaker 1: new VLCC vessel.

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Speaker 2: So typically today you will pay four installments of ten

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Speaker 2: percent up to delivery, and you pay sixty percent on

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Speaker 2: delivery and the events these installments will be related to

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Speaker 2: certain milestones in the construction period, so that's sort of

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Speaker 2: the norm. You can negotiate this a little bit back

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Speaker 2: and forth with the shipyards, but that's the typical way

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Speaker 2: to pay.

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Speaker 1: Do they have to put like so but you can

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Speaker 1: finance that and maybe put twenty percent of your own

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Speaker 1: capital down. Is that how it typically works or is it?

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Speaker 2: We have four ships on order now, but weeple financed

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Speaker 2: all the installments up to delivery with the equity or

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Speaker 2: cash flow from operations. And then the shipyards typically they

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Speaker 2: will have to provide you with a refundant guarantee in

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Speaker 2: case something goes wrong when the ship cannot be delivered,

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Speaker 2: but we only go to the big shipyards so that

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Speaker 2: there's no real risk for that in our case. Right.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of talk about, you know,

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Speaker 1: lowering emissions in the shipping industry, zero missions by twenty fifty.

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Speaker 1: I think the latest is how is DHD going about

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Speaker 1: trying to reach that goal? Because it is difficult from

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Speaker 1: what I understand, because a lot of the alternative fuels

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Speaker 1: really haven't been tested or the availability is really not there.

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Speaker 2: So this is a big and important question, and I

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Speaker 2: will spend a little bit of time on this, but

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Speaker 2: just looking starting with DHD first and our fleet today,

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Speaker 2: we are on the right side of the trajectory of

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Speaker 2: what is expected of our industry. And then secondly, we

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Speaker 2: have now four ships on order that are of the

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Speaker 2: latest design with new engines, and they will have a

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Speaker 2: lower fuel consumption and also lower emissions and they will

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Speaker 2: basically be a compliant life cycle so for twenty years.

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Speaker 2: But if you take a step back, I think people

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Speaker 2: have been a little bit restrictive in ordering new ships

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Speaker 2: because there's been uncertainties on this topic. So in February

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Speaker 2: last year, we engaged two other world's leading energy research

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Speaker 2: firms in doing some studies for US, and we engage

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Speaker 2: two of them but separately, so they were not aware

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Speaker 2: of each other. We wanted to sort of check a

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Speaker 2: little bit about the outcome and see if it's all

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Speaker 2: throw added up. So this took some ten months, and

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Speaker 2: what we wanted to find out was not the technical

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Speaker 2: feasibility on board on a ship for these fuels, because

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Speaker 2: that we know in house, but we wanted to try

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Speaker 2: to understand a few things. So one we wanted to

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Speaker 2: understand the current and expected committed Capex to build production

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Speaker 2: facilities for green ammonia and blue or biometanol, which are

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Speaker 2: sort of potential fuels for our industry. We also then

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Speaker 2: wanted to understand what are the cost of these projects

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Speaker 2: so it would give an indication not with the cost

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Speaker 2: of the fuels, and also where geographically would these production

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Speaker 2: facilities be located, how would they deliver and deliver these

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Speaker 2: fuels to the market. And lastly, are the other industries

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Speaker 2: that will compete to have a different willingness or ability

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Speaker 2: to pay for these fuels to what maybe the maritime

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Speaker 2: industry would have. So luckily, in a way, these two

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Speaker 2: reports were highly aligned and were very credible in my view,

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Speaker 2: and these were bottom up analysis, and of course, as

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Speaker 2: all research, has a number of assumption to them. But

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Speaker 2: I think the key output for us was that these

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Speaker 2: fuels will be limited in production capacity, so they cannot

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Speaker 2: service the entire industry. Secondly, they will be very expensive,

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Speaker 2: so you would need either the customer or some other

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Speaker 2: type of economic incentives for the fuel to be applied.

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Speaker 2: If you look at the maritime industry, it currently consumes

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Speaker 2: about three and a half million barrels per day in fuel,

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Speaker 2: three and a half percent of the oil market. If

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Speaker 2: our industry is able to decarbonize, say one third of

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Speaker 2: our space, it means that two thirds will still remain

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Speaker 2: with our existing applications. And I think given the size

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Speaker 2: of the leaves sees the big engines also being you know,

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Speaker 2: transporting over very long distances is open sea with very

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Speaker 2: limited fuel fueling stations, if you can call it that.

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Speaker 2: We will probably be one of the last frontiers that

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Speaker 2: will adopt other things. So what's important for us then

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Speaker 2: is to have the most efficient equipment, maybe over time

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Speaker 2: increasingly start to blend in biofuels as or if they

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Speaker 2: become available, because that can be mixed with our existing

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Speaker 2: fuel and used on existing equipment we have, and that

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Speaker 2: will of course also then over time reduce the footprint

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Speaker 2: of carbon and things like that.

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Speaker 1: And so if I heard you heard you correctly. So

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Speaker 1: the ships that you have in order, they're not dual fuels,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's good old load.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So we have the sort of conventional technology, but

296
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Speaker 2: the latest design and these engines have not been built

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Speaker 2: yet for v SC, so we're the first ones out

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Speaker 2: of the gate to do this. But what we have

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Speaker 2: done we have what is called a class notation, which

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Speaker 2: means that the ships are from a layered perspective design

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Speaker 2: perspective prepared to apply alternative fuels. And we can then

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Speaker 2: do that either for LNG ammonia or metanol. But if

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Speaker 2: we were to operate with those fuels, it would require

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Speaker 2: additional CAPEX, and it will really be driven by say

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Speaker 2: a customer who will come to us and say, we

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Speaker 2: would like you to apply fuel X and that will

307
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Speaker 2: require you to apply CAPEX and the rate that will

308
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Speaker 2: have to hire the ship for a term contract, well

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Speaker 2: then reflect that additional investment.

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Speaker 1: And what was the fuel efficiency differential between maybe your

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Speaker 1: oldest ship in your fleet versus these new ones that

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Speaker 1: you're ordering.

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Speaker 2: That's quite significant. That's some thirty five percent less fuel

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Speaker 2: conssumption and then related emissions. So this has not been

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Speaker 2: a straight line trajectory. We had a big change which

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Speaker 2: ships built from twenty fifteen onwards where we got what

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Speaker 2: people referred to as eco designs and they were you know,

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Speaker 2: meaningfully more economical than prior to science. And I think

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Speaker 2: for the listeners, if you consider your car, for instance,

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Speaker 2: you will have seen that cars have become much more

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Speaker 2: fuel efficient over the years, and this sort of happened

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Speaker 2: with a big step for maritime transportation in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 2: The ships we're building now they are expected to be

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Speaker 2: some six percent you know, more fuel efficient than the

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Speaker 2: most recent ships we have delivered some five years ago.

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Speaker 2: So there is still improvement going on.

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Speaker 1: So, in your opinion, do you think like the zero

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Speaker 1: emission goals that the industry has may have to be

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Speaker 1: pushed out further when the reality hits.

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Speaker 2: I think, for what we know today, it I think

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Speaker 2: it's a it's a challenge, and I think people need

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Speaker 2: to realize that the energy transition will not happen without

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Speaker 2: energy security. So you have to operate existing and sort

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Speaker 2: of well known systems today for a goodwie longer to

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Speaker 2: have energy security until new technologies and fuels and other

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Speaker 2: alternatives of energy can be applied.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so just switching gears a little bit. You know,

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Speaker 1: we talked about the Suez Canal, the Panama Canal. Obviously

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Speaker 1: vlccs are a lot too big to get through there.

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Speaker 1: Has the impact of the water levels on the Panama

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Speaker 1: Canal have any sort of ripple effect to the vlccs.

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Speaker 2: The Panama Canal is also, you know, has some restrictions

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Speaker 2: so the these cannot go in at all because they're

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Speaker 2: too wide. So that has had a more sort of

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Speaker 2: impact or big impact actually on the LPG market because

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Speaker 2: those ships were transitting quite often and certainly they had

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Speaker 2: to expand distances. So but for VS, the c SED

348
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Speaker 2: that has not really influenced.

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Speaker 1: Us, so it really hasn't impacted the tanker industry very much. Okay, cool.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you're thinking about capital, what are your

351
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Speaker 1: priorities at DHD in terms of you know, obviously it's

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Speaker 1: a very cyclical business, so sometimes you have a lot

353
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Speaker 1: of cash to spend and sometimes you don't correct.

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Speaker 2: So our balance sheet is one of the strongest in

355
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Speaker 2: the industry. We have very low leverage below twenty percent,

356
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 2: and this is by design. And you know, in relation

357
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Speaker 2: to this, we also have a clearly defined dividend policy,

358
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Speaker 2: so we pay out one hundred percent of our ordinary

359
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,800
Speaker 2: net income as a quarterly cash dividend. But there's a

360
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Speaker 2: difference between our cash break even and our P and

361
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 2: L break even or in net income break even, and

362
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Speaker 2: this leaves us with some discretionary cash flows that we

363
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 2: can apply to other things than dividends, and that will

364
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,639
Speaker 2: typically be capex in relation to investing in the fleet

365
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 2: or share buybacks, or we can prepaid that on top

366
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 2: of sort of scheduled amortization. Currently, we will prioritize this

367
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,959
Speaker 2: cash flow to the installments on the new bolts that

368
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 2: we have contracted, so up to delivery so this with

369
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,719
Speaker 2: some reserves do you have on hand, will sort of

370
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 2: finance the equity compo component of these new bolts.

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Speaker 1: Does do you do much in the M and A

372
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Speaker 1: space or do you do you try to grow through

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Speaker 1: buying companies or is it your buying assets.

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Speaker 2: So since twenty ten, when I've been running this business,

375
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,879
Speaker 2: we have done two M and A transactions, one in

376
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Speaker 2: twenty fourteen and one in twenty seventeen, but they were

377
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,119
Speaker 2: not public to public, so we acquired privately owned fleet

378
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 2: and then took them into the public company. So we

379
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 2: are always open to look at this. But I think

380
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Speaker 2: we have a quite a rigid system in place to

381
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 2: be disciplined on how to create value for our shareholders,

382
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 2: how to create the earning secretion, how to not distort

383
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 2: our balance sheet, you know, change it too much. So

384
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,119
Speaker 2: a number of metrics has to sort of be fulfilled,

385
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 2: so to say, and that makes it sometimes at all

386
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 2: order to do a deal. Yeah. I think also, you know,

387
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 2: doing these investment bankers in general are the people talking

388
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,120
Speaker 2: mostly about it because of course incentivized to do them.

389
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 2: But it's hard to make it work frankly, So we

390
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,680
Speaker 2: don't want to grow just for size. That's not our ambition.

391
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Speaker 2: Our sort of goal is to be one of the

392
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 2: most respected companies, necessarily to be the biggest, and in

393
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 2: also that context, we hope to be considered as maybe one,

394
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 2: if not the most investable tanker company also in the

395
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 2: public space, so that's sort of more important for us.

396
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: So you don't get much of a benefit from increasing

397
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,679
Speaker 1: your scale or your fleet.

398
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 2: I think we should not be sort of meaningfully smaller

399
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 2: than what we are. We could, you know, of course,

400
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,840
Speaker 2: be a bit bigger. We could have handles some growth

401
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,120
Speaker 2: without changing our GNA cost, for instance, So if we

402
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 2: were to acquire five ships or maybe up to ten,

403
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 2: there will hardly be any change in our GNA cost.

404
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 2: So of course that will be beneficial for the owners

405
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 2: of the company, But the deal of course has to

406
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: be driven by some other economics rather than just GNA benefits.

407
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 1: Is the VLCC market a consolidated market or is there

408
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 1: a fragmented market.

409
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 2: Like most shipping markets, is quite fragmented, and you have

410
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 2: some big state owned entities. So there are two large

411
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 2: state owned Chinese companies that combined on roughly ten percent

412
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 2: of the LEFCC fleet, Saudi Arabia, for one, They have

413
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 2: a big fleet, you know, representing five percent maybe all

414
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 2: of the market, and then you have two big Japanese companies.

415
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,679
Speaker 2: There are public but they predominantly service the Japanese markets.

416
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 2: So outside that there are of course some public entities,

417
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 2: but the number of private owners so it's fairly fragmented industry.

418
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 2: So I think it's hard to think you can meaningfully

419
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 2: consolidate the space.

420
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, we touched upon a couple of geopolitical things going

421
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: on in the world, the war in Ukraine, Russia's war

422
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: with Ukraine. How has that impacted the tanker market and

423
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: specifically the VLCC market, And you know, assuming peace happens,

424
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: hopefully it does sooner rather than later, what would that

425
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: do to the market when it resets.

426
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,959
Speaker 2: I think firstly, that conflict has had a big impact

427
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 2: on the tanker market. So Russia, you know, typically delivered

428
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 2: a lot of the oil produced in the Baltic to

429
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: Europe and also some of it produced in the Black Sea,

430
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 2: and those holes have now been rerouted and most of

431
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: that oil has been going to Asia. And this is

432
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 2: now being done by a fleet now referred to as

433
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: the shadow fleet because it's not fully compliant and these

434
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 2: ships cannot really do businessmous, Yes, the Western majors and

435
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: so on. So that ended up being a major disruption

436
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 2: in trade. And of course then europead to source oil

437
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 2: from elsewhere, and so all of this has had a

438
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 2: big change in all flows.

439
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: Can I ask you questions? So when you talk about

440
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: the shadow fleet, they're not most there's not very many

441
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: vlccs in that shadow fleet. It's mostly smaller ships. Or

442
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 1: are there VLC seas in the shadow fleet?

443
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: Not roughly one thousand ships in the shadow fleet, but

444
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty of them are vv diseas. Oh wow,

445
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 2: so it's a big trunk of it. But it's really

446
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 2: the older part of the fleet. So this fleet, the

447
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: VSC fleet in that shadow trade, is on average over

448
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 2: twenty years of age. So this is meant in a

449
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 2: way that you know, a lot of the smaller ships

450
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 2: that were involved in this Russian trade, they've had you know,

451
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 2: better rates compared to the vvccs over the last eighteen

452
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 2: twenty four months, which of course I personally found very annoying.

453
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 2: But I see now, you know, sanctions are starting to

454
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: buy it from from the US, and you see a

455
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 2: number of the trades and deliverables or deliveries from from Russia.

456
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 2: It is becoming difficult, and the reals sees are sort

457
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 2: of grinding it way through normal transport economics because it

458
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 2: is the most efficient type of trade. So I think

459
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 2: eventually we will come out on top, as we normally

460
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: should do so, but it has taken time, and it's

461
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 2: been a rough period for for all tankers, but smaller

462
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: tankers have had a bona for for for quite a

463
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 2: while on.

464
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 1: This So broadly speaking, would you say the Russia's war

465
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: with Ukraine has had a more of an impact on

466
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 1: tanker rates from a positive standpoint than the dislocation created

467
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: by the Red Sea?

468
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, big time? So okay, all right, So.

469
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: When you guys are thinking about buying used assets, what

470
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: is the number one criteria? Is it valuation? Like what

471
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: are you looking for when you're when you're looking at

472
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: it to bring in an asset into the fleet.

473
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 2: This is the capital intensive industries and these ships are expensive,

474
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: so price, of course is of importance, but it's also

475
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 2: important that the ship has been built at the right yard,

476
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: had been in the right prior ownership, and been maintained

477
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: up to sort of standards that we value, and also

478
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: that it has the right design that sort of works

479
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: for at least our preferred trading routes and customers. So

480
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: we have a number of sort of metrics that we

481
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 2: would like to fulfill, but of course various value is

482
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 2: very important, all right.

483
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: And then do do you guys have any kind of

484
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: long term targets goals? Do you have a dividend target

485
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: that you try to reach?

486
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: So our dividend policy is one hundred percent of net income,

487
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 2: but of course it's variable with earnings, so earnings in

488
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 2: our industry fluctuate. So the target you could say, is

489
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 2: of course to be able to honor and maintain that

490
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 2: policy for a long while, so that you know, our

491
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,959
Speaker 2: investors at least have visibility, they know what to expect,

492
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: and we provide the quarterly updates on earnings, both you know,

493
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: preceding quarter and the forthcoming quarters, so at least gives

494
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 2: some visibility. But of course the industry is cyclical. But

495
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: as I alluded to, we are not really focusing on size.

496
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: We want to be a highly respected company. We do

497
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 2: a lot of repeat business with some of the most

498
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: demanding customers out there, and it's important for us to

499
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: stay in that game and for them to continue to

500
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 2: give us business. And then I think working with these

501
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 2: clients that are so demanding, they make us a better

502
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: company because they have high expectations of our services, our

503
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: safety record, our people and so so we want to

504
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 2: stick with our knittings, so to say, and you know,

505
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 2: maintain that quality level.

506
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: Right, and so you prioritize dividend over share buybacks.

507
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: At DHD, we've done some share by backs in the past,

508
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: but have been more optimistic and they've not been in

509
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: instead of paying out. The evidences have been in addition,

510
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: and we have viewed them then typically that this is

511
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: like buying ships in the market. So when the share

512
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 2: price have been dislocated from the underlying asset values in

513
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 2: the company, i e. That the stock is trading at

514
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: a big discount to a break up value, then we

515
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: looked at it as a good investment. So in twenty one,

516
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: for a period we brought back almost six percent of

517
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 2: the company because there was a big dislocation in the

518
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: share price and where asset prices were moving. So in

519
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 2: this environment now we are trading at the premium to

520
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: NAV and asset prices you know, are reflecting the current

521
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: rate environment. Possibly, so this is not the time for

522
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: us to buy backstock, so we will prioritize our dividends.

523
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: Okay, great, you mentioned earlier you know what, I think

524
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: you mentioned fifty thousand dollars a day. I don't know

525
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: if you can give any statistics, but in the first quarter,

526
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: what is your average ship fixed that you have fixed?

527
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: So we provided a business update on the roughly, I

528
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: think it was the tenth of January for the bookings

529
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: to date for the first quarter, and that was in

530
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: the mid fifties, around the fifty five number. I think

531
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: this year will be a better year than last year,

532
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: and I think also twenty five will very likely be

533
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: better than twenty four. So this is sort of gradually

534
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: moving upwards. So exactly what the rate would be, it's

535
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: hard to predict, and I've been too long in the

536
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: industry to try to give a number on that. But

537
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 2: I'm quite you know, I'm very confident in what's ahead

538
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 2: of us, and I think we have now a good

539
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: visibility for at least the next three years, if not longer.

540
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: Okay, And there is a lot of seasonality with the

541
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: crude market, right, so can you talk about seasonality in

542
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: terms of rates for the vocc market like when they're

543
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: high and when they're usually lower.

544
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: So this was, at least in the past, it was

545
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: very pronounced because oil trade was then predominantly in Atlantic

546
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: and as you know, winter season and summer season, and

547
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: you had the heating season and driving season and turn

548
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: around in refineries and all of that sort of created

549
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: quite a lot of seasonality. This has changed a little

550
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 2: bit as Asia has become the biggest market really for

551
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: consuming oil, and so seasonality is somewhat different, and it's

552
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: I would say it's less pronounced, but you do still

553
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 2: have quite a lot of volatility between quarters and also

554
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: within the quarters. And I would encourage investors to look

555
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 2: more at the averages rather than be too fixated on

556
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 2: whether the rate is x or y in a particular quarter,

557
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 2: because I think it typically can take the focus away

558
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: from what's actually going on. So that's why we started

559
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 2: to provide these business updates once a quarter, so hopefully it,

560
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: you know, gives investors a little bit more steer on

561
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 2: what the market will be.

562
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: Okay, and so how did you get into You've been

563
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: in the industry for over thirty years. Was what was

564
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: your draw to the marine shipping industry?

565
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: So I'm turning sixty now. So I had a different

566
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: job before I was in shipping. I was actually a musician,

567
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 2: professional musician, So where'd you play? I played drums, We

568
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: had a band, and we signed a record contract to

569
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 2: EMI back in I think it was eighty three. When

570
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 2: I know this, man, it's not Spotify, so it can

571
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: be found. It's called small.

572
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: Affairs, Small affairs there you go, all right, check it out.

573
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 2: But you know, it's We had sort of a good start.

574
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: We had a mini hit and then we made a

575
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 2: second album and that was you know, was not so

576
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: successful commercially, and it was tough to really make a living.

577
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: Although I love music. I've been with, you know, doing

578
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: music since I was three years old. But you know,

579
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: Norway is a country where shipping is a very big

580
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: industry and it's sort of an industry you can read

581
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: about in the newspapers every day, and you know, I

582
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 2: know people in the shipping industry. My wife had classmates

583
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 2: from school that were in shipping, so you know, we

584
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: talked about this and I felt interested in that, and

585
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 2: I decided to try. And you know, there was an

586
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: advertisement from a well known, highly regarded shipping company and

587
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: then we're looking for an experience charging manager. I was not,

588
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: but I nevertheless applied and tried to convince them that

589
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: maybe I had some potential. So I was lucky they

590
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: gave me a chance, which I think was you know,

591
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: a bit bold. I didn't have a you know, financial

592
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: education on any of that sort, so, but they gave

593
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: me a chance, and then I think I took it

594
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: so and I had a very good start. It was

595
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: a great company to you know, start to learn. It

596
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: was integrated with all sorts of activities in house. And

597
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: then my career moved on. And I really love shipping.

598
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: I think it's an industry. Once you get it under

599
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: your skin, it started to sort of get rid of it,

600
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 2: and it's it's a truly international business. It's a lot

601
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: of you know, interesting people you get to meet. You're

602
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: sort of involved in geopolitics. You're involved in oil, which

603
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: is at least for our business, which is the biggest

604
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: commodity on the planet. So it's really exciting and it's

605
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: never a dull moment to work in this industry.

606
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: And when you were learning about the industry, or maybe

607
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: just today, is there a book about shipping, whether it's

608
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: fiction or nonfiction that you kind of love and you

609
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: would recommend people to read if they want to know

610
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: more about what the industry is about.

611
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: There's there's several good books, but then I think that

612
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 2: the most recent book, I think may be the most entertaining,

613
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: is not only about shipping, but it's very related. It's

614
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: called The World for Sale. The World is for Sale,

615
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 2: and it's a recent book and I think one of

616
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: the two writers is actually an next Bloomberg journalist if

617
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: I'm not wrong, and it, you know, talks really about

618
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: the oil trading business, also other commodities, but a lot

619
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 2: of about oil, and of course transportation is very related

620
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 2: to this. I think it's a very entertaining read for people.

621
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 2: So it's not the heavy read, but I think it's

622
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 2: good fun, so.

623
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: Great and you know, is there anything facing d HD

624
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: that kind of keeps you up at night? As you

625
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 1: know an executive running a VLCC fleet.

626
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 2: At the moment, I sleep well, but of course there

627
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 2: are occasions when you when you are awake at night,

628
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 2: you don't sleep so well. So this for instance, you know,

629
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: when we had the two ships in the Red Sea

630
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 2: in the end of last year, you know, with cargo

631
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: and our people on board and all that. That was

632
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: not a very comfortable moment. You know, you want to

633
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: ensure that things go safely and you've you know, I

634
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 2: was monitoring my messages all the time. What's going on? Right?

635
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: And that's a then you're not so comfortable. I think

636
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 2: other occasions are you know, when you have to make

637
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 2: a big decision and then you think, have I made

638
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: the right decision or not? And you know, how comfortable

639
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 2: are you on this decision? And so that of course

640
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 2: can also make you a bit more nervous. But I

641
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 2: think it's sort of it's healthy to be nervous if

642
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: you don't have those experiences, you know, the and maybe

643
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 2: you're too confident and that could be dentious, all right,

644
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 2: it might have.

645
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: Might I make a suggestion that, like on your next

646
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 1: earnings call, maybe you do like a drum intro before

647
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: the call, maybe do rifting a little bit on the drums.

648
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 2: Well I wish, but I'm afraid my skills a would

649
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 2: be rusty nowadays.

650
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: Okay, Well swayin. I just really appreciate your time for

651
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: coming here. It's been a pleasure speaking to you and

652
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: learning more about DHD and the VLCC market.

653
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 2: Thank you.

654
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: Lee.

655
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: I appreciate being on your podcasts.

656
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: And thanks for tuning in. If you like an episode,

657
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Speaker 1: please subscribe and leave a review. We've lined up a

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Speaker 1: number of great guests for the podcast. Check back to

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Speaker 1: hear conversations with C suite executives, shippers, regulators, and decision

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Speaker 1: makers within the freight markets. Also, if you have an

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Speaker 1: idea for a future episode, please hit me up on

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Speaker 1: the terminal or on Twitter at logistics Lee. Thanks everyone,

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Speaker 1: Take care,