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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. How

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Speaker 1: are you doing today, Robert, on this fine summer morning. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great because we're we're about to jump into

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Speaker 1: our our annual summer reading episode. Every year, I feel

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Speaker 1: like we end up doing these two late in the

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Speaker 1: summer and everybody's already gone to the beach, so their

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Speaker 1: beach reading time is gone, and they ended up just

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Speaker 1: reading whatever was in the beach house they went to

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Speaker 1: or something. I bet you've had that experience before. I've

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Speaker 1: never been forced to read the books in the beach house,

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Speaker 1: but I always check them out. It's always it's always,

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Speaker 1: I always approached when I find the stash of books. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It always built up a sense of excitement because you

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Speaker 1: pretty much know what to expect. It's gonna be your

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Speaker 1: Tom Clancy books, right, It's gonna be or what you're

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Speaker 1: Daniel Steel. Why is it that everybody who owns beach

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Speaker 1: front property is into Tom Clancy. I don't know. There's

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Speaker 1: a strange confluence of characteristics of a person. It does

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Speaker 1: seem like the the the type of person who owns

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Speaker 1: a beach house seems to have Tom Clancy books or

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Speaker 1: is it the other way around? People who go to

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Speaker 1: beach houses tend to bring tom Clancy books with them

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Speaker 1: and then leave them. Like if you're into kind of

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Speaker 1: like like cold war military technology and uh, nuclear submarines

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that, you just end up with a

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Speaker 1: lot of extra money and real estate and investments. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. But again you can say, well, yes, Tom

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Speaker 1: Clancy books were highly popular, But why do I see

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Speaker 1: more Tom Clancy books seemingly without actually doing like a

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Speaker 1: scientific study of this, Why does it seem like they

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Speaker 1: are more Tom Clancy books than say, Stephen King books

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Speaker 1: or Michael Crichton books. Though I have to say that

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Speaker 1: occasionally I get lucky and find some some cool gym

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Speaker 1: like some seventies horror or that the last time I

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Speaker 1: went to a beach house, uh, there there happened to

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Speaker 1: be some some German books, like German language books. I

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Speaker 1: can't remember what they were off hand, but it was

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Speaker 1: exciting to find something new. I'm just remembering. I think

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Speaker 1: one time you told me about going to a beach

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Speaker 1: house in the summer and finding a werewolf spy book. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: to cover Werewolf. That was one I think I had

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Speaker 1: to take a picture of. I I cannot remember the

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Speaker 1: the author um or the title, but it was I

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Speaker 1: think it was a seventies or the eighties publication. Well, anyway,

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Speaker 1: there's still time in the summer, still time to read

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Speaker 1: summer reading books. So we're here with our picks for

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Speaker 1: the summer of But before we get into that, I

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Speaker 1: think we need to remind you real quick that we're

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Speaker 1: about to go on tour. That's right, we have a

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Speaker 1: we have a mini tour coming up, and this is

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Speaker 1: gonna be in September, specifically September. We're going to be

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Speaker 1: in Boston at the Armory September six. We're gonna be

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Speaker 1: in New York City at the Cutting Room. September seven,

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Speaker 1: We're going to be in Philly at at Underground Arts,

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Speaker 1: and then then on then on the ninth, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be in Washington, d C. At Union Stage. So if

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Speaker 1: you've ever wanted to experience stuff to blow your mind live,

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Speaker 1: if you want to check out like you nique stuff

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Speaker 1: to blow your mind experience, uh, this is the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to do it. This is gonna be a special episode.

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Speaker 1: We're really excited about what we're putting together. Yes, So

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Speaker 1: if you are interested in coming out to see us,

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Speaker 1: you can click on the tour tab on our website

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Speaker 1: that stuff to Blow your Mind dot com and you

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Speaker 1: can go ahead and get your tickets today. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: got to stuff to blow your Mind dot com Live

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Speaker 1: shows Tabor right at the top. Click on it and

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Speaker 1: buy your ticket. Get ready to go. But now back

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Speaker 1: to Summer Reading, which which really this whole episode is

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Speaker 1: always like the final minutes of an episode of Reading Rainbow.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember watching Reading Rainbow as a child, Well,

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Speaker 1: of course I remember it. About what happened in the

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Speaker 1: final minutes. You would have just a few different children

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Speaker 1: would present a book that they had read and loved,

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Speaker 1: and essentially it was like a mini book report. Over

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Speaker 1: the years, it's we've had different host arrangements. Sometimes we've

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Speaker 1: had guests, either guests from other How Stuff Works podcasts

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Speaker 1: or guests from outside the organization. Uh. This this year

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Speaker 1: is just just Joe and UH and me. But still

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Speaker 1: we have some some really exciting books to discuss here. Uh,

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Speaker 1: some books that so many of you out there have

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Speaker 1: already read uh others, others of you are going to

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Speaker 1: be introduced to some new reads for the first time,

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Speaker 1: all minor Tom Clancy books. One quick caveat this is

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Speaker 1: gonna be a two parter. Uh so this is gonna

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Speaker 1: we started talking about books and then we went for

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Speaker 1: two hours. So uh sorry or or I guess not

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Speaker 1: sorry about that. Everybody loves talking about books and cool concepts.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, be prepared. This one is going to be

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Speaker 1: split into you know, I don't know about you, Joe,

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Speaker 1: but personally, the nonfiction part of summer reading is always

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Speaker 1: a challenge for me because I find that almost all

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Speaker 1: of my nonfiction reading is usually podcast research, and if

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Speaker 1: I stumble across a new fiction nonfiction book that I'm

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Speaker 1: interested in, then I'll probably shoot to cover it on

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Speaker 1: an episode exactly. So um So this year I made

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Speaker 1: sure that I picked out something that I've been meaning

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Speaker 1: to read for a long time and something that felt timely.

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Speaker 1: Uh you know, especially given some of our recent episodes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know what you mean that choosing which ones to

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Speaker 1: talk about it can be difficult because, for example, uh,

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite books I read this year, I

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Speaker 1: know was was Carl Zimmer's Awesome book She Has Her

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Speaker 1: Mother's Laugh, which we interviewed Carl about on the podcast

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Speaker 1: in June. And so you're thinking about that, and I say, well,

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Speaker 1: that's that is definitely one of my favorite books I

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Speaker 1: read this year, But we already did an episode about it,

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Speaker 1: so it doesn't make sense to like really recommend that again.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, I I tried in this episode to pick

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Speaker 1: books that I hadn't talked about or hadn't talked about

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Speaker 1: much on the podcast already. Yeah, likewise, I had I

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Speaker 1: had a similar problem with with fiction choices because when

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Speaker 1: it comes to literature, I'm kind of I guess I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of a selfish lover. I will if I really

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Speaker 1: dig a work of fiction, I'm probably going to talk

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Speaker 1: about it on the show. So both of my fiction

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Speaker 1: choices this year, my main choices that I made, I

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Speaker 1: have discussed at least in passing a few past episodes,

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Speaker 1: but I haven't really I think, you know, chewed them

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Speaker 1: up properly on the show. Um. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: one of my absolute favorite books from the last year

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Speaker 1: was our Scott Baker's The Unholy Consult, And we actually

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Speaker 1: had Scott on the show to talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that book. So I'm not going to talk about

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Speaker 1: it anymore. Here is that the one A bunch of

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Speaker 1: people were mad about, Well, I don't know a bunch

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Speaker 1: of people were mad about. There was some division among

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Speaker 1: the fans about like what the ending meant. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's stuck, It's stuck with you. And I felt like

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Speaker 1: it was very much in keeping with the trajectory of

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Speaker 1: all the previous books. Well, let's get right into our

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Speaker 1: book selections. All right, Robert, I think you are starting

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Speaker 1: with a classic, aren't you. Yeah, a classic that I

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Speaker 1: had I had never read. Uh, so this was the

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Speaker 1: first time for me, but I was well from familiar

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Speaker 1: with it. By reputation, The Demon Haunted World Science as

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Speaker 1: a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan from So

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Speaker 1: the author here, of course has Carl Sagan, noted astrophysicist, author,

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Speaker 1: cosmos television host and one of the most important and

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Speaker 1: enduring science communicators of the twentieth century. And now that

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Speaker 1: this is one of those big this is like one

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Speaker 1: of the great science communication tomes. Yes, yeah, And and

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Speaker 1: this was also the next to last book written in

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Speaker 1: Sagan's lifetime, as he died of pneumonia after a battle

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Speaker 1: with cancer. So, yeah, I picked it up recently following

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Speaker 1: our most recent episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind

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Speaker 1: on science communication and the dangers, particularly of the illusory

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Speaker 1: truth effect. Oh yes, So we had a two parter

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Speaker 1: on that recently, and that's the concept that's now been

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Speaker 1: shown in multiple studies replicated over and over that simply

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Speaker 1: exposing somebody to a claim and then repeating that claim

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Speaker 1: over and over actually does provably make people believe the

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Speaker 1: claim more. Yeah, and it really made us think about

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Speaker 1: about the show, about some of the things we talk about.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes we talk about erroneous theories or um, let's say,

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Speaker 1: radical hypotheses, and and you know, to what extent, uh,

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Speaker 1: should we do that too? You know what what is

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Speaker 1: what is our respond instability? What as a as science communicators?

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Speaker 1: I think I have come away thinking I thought about

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Speaker 1: this a lot since the episode. I think I've come

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Speaker 1: away thinking, as I originally did, that it doesn't make

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Speaker 1: sense to say we can never discuss bad ideas on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I mean, that's that's a lot of what

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Speaker 1: we do. And yeah, yeah, that's it's an extremely important

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Speaker 1: thing to do. It's not like once an idea looks

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Speaker 1: unlikely or has been disproven, you should never speak of it.

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Speaker 1: But I think that the point is that whenever you

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Speaker 1: speak of those things, you should make clear that simply

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Speaker 1: repeating the thing and then saying it's not true isn't

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Speaker 1: the whole story that you give the alternative account that

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Speaker 1: you get, that you analyze, you explain, you give people

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Speaker 1: context that's memorable so they can understand what the truth is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, and I've been thinking about this

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Speaker 1: as well, and I realized this would be a perfect

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Speaker 1: book to to seek out again because, you know, given

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Speaker 1: Sagan's expertise in science communication and his willingness to engage

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Speaker 1: in ah the sort of open minded yet optical thinking

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Speaker 1: that we really try and pull off on the show.

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Speaker 1: So I picked it up and inject it out. So

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Speaker 1: in this book, Sagan set out to explain just what

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Speaker 1: science offers us as a culture, how pseudoscience and magical

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Speaker 1: thinking work against it, and indeed why many of us

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Speaker 1: are sucked into these ideas when science can both better

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Speaker 1: amaze us, I mean, and improve our our lives and

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Speaker 1: our understanding of the world. That that is one of

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Speaker 1: the key tragedies that the science communicator has to observe

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Speaker 1: over and over again. Is that like, say, you see

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Speaker 1: somebody gets sucked in by ancient aliens literature and they

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Speaker 1: you know, they they say, you can't explain the pyramids

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Speaker 1: unless aliens came in and did it. One of the

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Speaker 1: worst things about that is it's not just wrong, but

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Speaker 1: it cuts you off from understanding the fascinating reality of

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Speaker 1: how ancient people with very limited technology accomplished this amazing

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Speaker 1: feed of engineering and construction. The truth is actually more interesting,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's sometimes harder to communicate how interest thing

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Speaker 1: it is. Pseudo scientific ideas are often more interesting in

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Speaker 1: a shallower way that they've got something that can grab

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Speaker 1: you in one sentence, you know what I mean? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So Sacand makes this point as well, But it is

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Speaker 1: this uh, you know, authentic shortcut to awe when the

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Speaker 1: real story can provide all. It's just it's just more

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Speaker 1: difficult to show how it provides all. Yeah. In the

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Speaker 1: early stages of the book, he talks about writing in

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Speaker 1: a taxi cab with his character that he he nicknames Buckley. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and Buckley is very interested in the world. Buckley's asking say,

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Speaker 1: like he recognizes sagan Um eventually and civilizes He's the

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Speaker 1: TV science guy. So he starts asking him all these

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Speaker 1: questions about ancient aliens and the Lost City of Atlantis

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Speaker 1: and all these questions, and Sagan is just kind of

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Speaker 1: having to break his heart over and over again, saying, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's no evidence for that. The evidence is super shaky

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Speaker 1: and that and and he you know, he points out

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Speaker 1: that that Buckley here is not you know, he's not

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Speaker 1: a dumb dumb He's he's a he has this q

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Speaker 1: reosity about the world. He wants to be odd. He

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Speaker 1: wants science. But for various reasons that that that Sagan

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Speaker 1: gets to it gets into in the book Um, the

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Speaker 1: media and and science communicators even have not reached him,

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Speaker 1: have not provided in the meal that he he that

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Speaker 1: he really wants and he and that he needs UM. Instead,

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Speaker 1: he's left with the junk food of pseudoscience, and that's

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Speaker 1: all he has to feast on. Yeah, and it's unfortunate

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Speaker 1: that that's the dynamic, But you can see why it

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Speaker 1: is because giving good explanations based on facts and real

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Speaker 1: evidence and rigorous analysis, that that is all constrained. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's constrained by all these limits imposed by reality. There

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Speaker 1: are only so many things you can say that are

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Speaker 1: actually logically correct and follow from your premises. There are

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Speaker 1: only so many things that you can actually prove with

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Speaker 1: real hard evidence. You can use your imagination to make

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Speaker 1: up all kinds of alternative, crazy things to say that

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Speaker 1: can be interesting, and you're not constrained by those problem blums. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, back back to the idea of like

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Speaker 1: how do you communicate science, then how do you discuss

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Speaker 1: crazy ideas and balance them? Um? You do see a

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Speaker 1: lot of this done very well in uh Sagan's book here,

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Speaker 1: for instance, he talks about UFOs a bit because it

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Speaker 1: was then, as it is now, still a topic of

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Speaker 1: of of of great interest. You know people here about UFOs.

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Speaker 1: If you're like like me, you grew up watching unsolved

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Speaker 1: mysteries and you're just bombarded with these ideas. So I

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Speaker 1: feel like UFOs are less discussed now than they used

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Speaker 1: to be. I feel like that was a much bigger

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Speaker 1: domain of pseudoscience in decades past. Yes, but we saw

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Speaker 1: these stories of UFOs um that we're that we draw

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Speaker 1: on right. And one thing that that Sagan does really well,

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Speaker 1: and this is that he talks about say that the

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Speaker 1: Cold War sightings of UFOs and to what extent the

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Speaker 1: government was looking into these, and he goes into say,

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Speaker 1: weather balloons, observation balloon to high altitude balloon technology, and

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Speaker 1: we've all heard that brought up as a as as

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Speaker 1: an explanation for unidentified flying objects before, but taking as

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Speaker 1: a great job in this of really breaking down like

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Speaker 1: what sort of technology balloon based technology was being used

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Speaker 1: at the time, not only for observational purposes, but also

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Speaker 1: for intelligence purposes uh by the United States against the

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union, and how this would have played into possible

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Speaker 1: reports of unidentified flying objects. And this is a case where, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've all heard the essentially the boring story at this

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Speaker 1: point of somebody seeing something unexplainable in the sky and

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Speaker 1: thinking it's aliens and having to embellishment or turn to

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Speaker 1: embellishment to to make sense of it. But these real

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Speaker 1: stories of of of of weather balloon technology and what

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Speaker 1: we were doing with them at the time is is

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Speaker 1: even more fascinating, just because I feel like fewer people

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Speaker 1: have heard the story, and indeed it's the story I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't mind returning to in a future episode. Well, another

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Speaker 1: thing I would say, though, is that virtue of being

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Speaker 1: true that story also connects with an ecosystem of other

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Speaker 1: true ideas, whereas pseudo scientific beliefs don't lead you anywhere.

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Speaker 1: You know, they don't lead you anywhere fruitful, like a

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Speaker 1: true belief leads you to other true discoveries and a

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Speaker 1: mistaken or false or embellished belief does not. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: because it seems like you're If you're suddenly interested in

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Speaker 1: hollow Earth ideas, then you're at best you're gonna wind

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Speaker 1: up reading about more ridiculous myths about like Nazi super

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Speaker 1: science or something, and how Hitler's on the moon now

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Speaker 1: or something to that effect. I guess with with it's

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Speaker 1: gonna vary depending on what your pseudoscience is, I guess

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Speaker 1: there are examples where, Yeah, if you're interested enough in

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Speaker 1: ancient aliens, you might find yourself learning more about say

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Speaker 1: Mayan or as tech civilization than you would have otherwise.

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Speaker 1: But it's going to be a painted understanding of it, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: you can only really get there by abandoning or ignoring

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Speaker 1: your initial premise. What I'm saying is like pseudo scientific

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Speaker 1: beliefs and stuff don't become useful premises in future arguments

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Speaker 1: or discovery. You can't really build a house on that foundation. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So this is a this is a book that of

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Speaker 1: course is as relevant now as it as it ever was,

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Speaker 1: especially with talk of post truth, alternative facts, uh, and

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Speaker 1: just stay disgustingly anti science trend and American politics of late.

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Speaker 1: So that's why there's a book I startling or strongly

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Speaker 1: recommend to everybody. It's available in all reading and listening

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Speaker 1: formats right now. Um. He Sagan spends a lot of

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Speaker 1: time in this discussing the allure of pseudo science, but

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Speaker 1: also how it gains power, and he points, uh, he

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Speaker 1: points the to the role of of our relinquishing of

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Speaker 1: civil controls and scientific education and how this allows for

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Speaker 1: the infection of pseudoscience and pseudo scientific belief to spread.

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Speaker 1: Points two examples in in pre war Germany also a

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Speaker 1: post communist Russia, a situation whereas the as sort of

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Speaker 1: the the controls are are relaxed, there is less science,

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Speaker 1: less scientific understanding in the in the among everyday common people.

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Speaker 1: Not talking about the the scientific establishment of the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 1: which of course uh was significantly advanced, but the the

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Speaker 1: average person, when the controls are loosened, what do they

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Speaker 1: have to turn to? They end up turning to some

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Speaker 1: of these science pseudo scientific ideas. Sagan argues, so it's

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Speaker 1: a good cautionary tale for for for today, for any age. Really,

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Speaker 1: I just want to read a couple of quick quotes

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Speaker 1: from the book itself, just to give you some Sagan's words.

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Speaker 1: Um for a short one he points he makes this point.

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Speaker 1: He says, pseudoscience is embraced. It might be argued in

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Speaker 1: exact proportion as real science is misunderstood, which I think

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Speaker 1: is is an interesting way of looking at a very

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Speaker 1: very apt way of looking at it. Kind of zero

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Speaker 1: sum competition between them. It's not like you can both

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Speaker 1: build up your scientific understanding and your embrace of pseudoscience

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Speaker 1: at the same time. They sort of they exist in

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Speaker 1: necessary competition with one another, and one undermines the other.

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Speaker 1: So if you hold one, it's undercutting your stock of

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Speaker 1: the other. Right, you know, one of the most important

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Speaker 1: things in this area, which I've been thinking about a

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Speaker 1: lot lately, is the danger of when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: embrace of scientific thinking, critical thinking, skepticism, rationality, all these

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Speaker 1: subjects that are very useful and very important, that you

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Speaker 1: want to be careful not to let it turn into

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Speaker 1: a kind of back padding exercise, where like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we do such a such a good job of being

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Speaker 1: rational and being skeptical, and there are all these other

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Speaker 1: people out here who have all these mistaken beliefs and

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Speaker 1: and and letting it um. I don't know. I feel

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Speaker 1: like I see this occasionally and say the skeptic community

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Speaker 1: is a kind of um over reliance on self congratulation

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Speaker 1: for being skeptical, Whereas really the greatest job we have

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Speaker 1: to do in this is being critical of ourselves. I

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Speaker 1: know it It's easier to say that than it is

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Speaker 1: to actually do it. I mean, I know I'm very

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Speaker 1: often not sufficiently critical of myself. But but that's what

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Speaker 1: we should really be focusing on, like remembering like this

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Speaker 1: isn't something other people do, this is something I do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I agree, and I I say that I have

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Speaker 1: to say that I I have to watch myself as well,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And I have to ask myself, well,

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Speaker 1: this particular hypothesis, Yeah, am I Why am I attracted

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Speaker 1: to it? Like it is? It is it's speaking truth

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Speaker 1: to reality? Or is it speaking to some other need

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Speaker 1: inside me? You know, some religious need perhaps that is

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Speaker 1: not being fulfilled by something else in uh in culture, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I have to be. One of the

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Speaker 1: ways in which I have to be very careful here

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Speaker 1: is like I feel that I am irrationally attracted to

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Speaker 1: overly interesting or cool ideas. I've brought this up a

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Speaker 1: lot when we talk about the bicameral mind idea. Now,

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Speaker 1: of course, as I've said before on the show you Know,

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Speaker 1: we did an episode about this last year. It's come

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Speaker 1: up a good bit since then. It's one of the

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Speaker 1: most interesting hypotheses I've ever come across. I wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: it's just like you know, it's just flagrant pseudoscience. Like

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Speaker 1: Janes was a psychologist, he brings a lot of evidence

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Speaker 1: and interesting argument, But then again, it's a radical hypothesis.

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Speaker 1: He asks you for, you know, to go along with

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Speaker 1: a very radical path with him, and so I don't

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Speaker 1: ultimately accept his hypothesis. I think he was probably wrong,

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Speaker 1: But I wonder if I give it even more credence

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Speaker 1: than it deserves, just because of how thought provoking and

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Speaker 1: cool it feels in my mind to contemplate well by

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Speaker 1: cameral mind hypothesis. One way I have of looking at

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Speaker 1: it is that I asked myself, is it a better

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Speaker 1: hypothesis for for the human experience than other uh theories

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Speaker 1: of consciousness. And I have to say largely no, I

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Speaker 1: think we have some better working theories of what's going on,

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Speaker 1: such as say, attention schema theory. You know, just what

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Speaker 1: ways of thinking about how are limited cognitive ability is

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Speaker 1: are focused on particular tasks. On the other hand, if

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Speaker 1: you say, is it a better hypothesis than say, established religion,

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Speaker 1: then I would say yes. And that's I think that's

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons that that I'm drawn to It

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Speaker 1: is the part of me that wants to make sense

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Speaker 1: of tales in which men speak to God's or or

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Speaker 1: God speak to men, the part of me that wants

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Speaker 1: that magic to be real. Um, then in those cases,

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Speaker 1: the bi cameral mind is a far better explanation than

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Speaker 1: God's are real, or that magical beings and spirits and

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Speaker 1: elves are an actual reality. You know, you can almost

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Speaker 1: like use it as a personally satisfying mythology, even if

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Speaker 1: you don't think it's necessarily a successful scientific theory. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it's I feel like it's a weird duck for

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Speaker 1: me and that I can't think of another hypothesis that

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Speaker 1: kind of uh, you know, it occupies that middle ground.

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Speaker 1: But we'll get back to to the bi cameral mind

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Speaker 1: and a little bit. Actually, I'm gonna close out the

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Speaker 1: section on on Sagan though by reading one more quote

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Speaker 1: um from a candle in the dark. Science is more

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Speaker 1: than a body of knowledge. It is a way of thinking.

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Speaker 1: I have a foreboding of an America in my children

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Speaker 1: or grandchildren's time, when the United States is a service

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Speaker 1: and information economy, when nearly all the key manufacturing industries

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Speaker 1: have slipped away to other countries, when awesome technological powers

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Speaker 1: are in the hands of a very few and no

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Speaker 1: one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues,

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Speaker 1: when the people have lost the ability to set their

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Speaker 1: own agendas or knowledgeably questioned those in authority, When clutching

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Speaker 1: our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes are critical faculties

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Speaker 1: and decline. Unable to distinguish between what feels good and

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Speaker 1: what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition

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Speaker 1: and darkness. Now what what year was? This? This was?

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Speaker 1: This is? But I don't want to I know that

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Speaker 1: sounds grim, but but ultimately this book is making the

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Speaker 1: argument and Sagan is making the argument. I think there's

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Speaker 1: an argument that holds true is that we don't don't

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Speaker 1: have to slip into darkness. We have to value science,

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Speaker 1: we have to value scientific thinking, scientific education, and we

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Speaker 1: have to to think skeptically about the world around us.

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Speaker 1: Um but there, but but as long as we don't

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Speaker 1: abandon these pillars that have that are that are holding

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Speaker 1: up civilization, um there is hope. It makes you realize

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Speaker 1: how important, how functionally practically important inspiring all in the

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Speaker 1: natural world really is. Because if you inspire people to

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Speaker 1: feel a sense of all with real science and real

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Speaker 1: discoveries and critical thinking about the natural world and all

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Speaker 1: of its phenomena, then that is a motivation to make

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Speaker 1: people want to know more about what's true about the

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Speaker 1: natural world, which is a motivation for them to be scientific,

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Speaker 1: to be skeptic, goal to be critical thinkers, and so so,

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Speaker 1: inspiring us to have a sense of awe about what's

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Speaker 1: true and what's real literally creates a better society, right,

430
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I would urge everyone out there, if

431
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: you value these uh these ideas, then uh then celebrate them,

432
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 1: share them with others, and certainly vote with them as well.

433
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: Wherever you happen to be. If you have the power

434
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 1: to vote where you live. Think about this when you

435
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: consider the people, uh and the organizations that you throw

436
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 1: your support behind. All Right, we're gonna take a quick break,

437
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: and when we come back, we're gonna jump in with

438
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: one of Joe's recommendations for this year's summer reading. Thank you,

439
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: thank you. Alright, we're back. Al Right. So, as I

440
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 1: mentioned before, I wanted to talk about a book that

441
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: hadn't really come up on the podcast before, and that book,

442
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: the first one I've picked for this episode is a

443
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 1: book called Black Hole Blues and Other Songs from Outer

444
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: Space by Janel Levin. This was first published in and

445
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: Janel Levin is an astrophysicist and an author. She's a

446
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: professor of physics and astronomy at Barnard College, which is

447
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 1: part of Columbia University, and she's written several popular science books,

448
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: including a novel about Kurt Girdle and Alan turing Um.

449
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: But in this book, Black Hole Blues, it's an account,

450
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: almost what I would call a non fiction novel, about

451
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: the search for gravitational waves and the quest to build

452
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: the Ligo Facility or the laser interferometer Gravitational Wave Wave Observatory.

453
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,479
Speaker 1: We discussed this a little bit on our in our

454
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 1: black Hole episodes we did earlier this year. Yes, uh,

455
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: and so this this book is focused specifically on gravitational waves.

456
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: And I call it almost a novel because for a

457
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: science book, this one spends a lot of time, a

458
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: lot of well invested time, I would say, richly portraying

459
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: its characters, so much so that kind of like when

460
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: Lovin quotes them from interviews, I felt like I could

461
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: see them and hear their voices and imagine them speaking.

462
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: But of course, these characters aren't just characters. They are

463
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: real scientists, and the work that they're doing is leading

464
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: up to one of the biggest scientific discoveries of our lifetime. Now, Robert,

465
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: do you remember when the gravitational waves observation was announced

466
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: in I think it was announced in twenty sixteen, but

467
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: the observation happened in September. You remember what you thought then?

468
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: I remember when. Yeah, I remember when I first heard

469
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 1: about it. I have to admit that I was like,

470
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: this is a big deal, but I don't really I

471
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: would not be able to explain to you why it's

472
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 1: a big deal yes, same here. I had to go

473
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: looking stuff up, and so I was reading a lot

474
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: about at the time, trying to understand what was important

475
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: about it um And so a lot of people I

476
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: think had that experience. They understood that it was a

477
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: big deal, but they didn't know exactly why it was

478
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: a big deal. In fact, I remember when the announcement

479
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: came out, I was here in the office and I

480
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: was talking to one of our colleagues here, and you

481
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: can imagine our colleagues here in the office, smart people

482
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: interested in science. But he was saying to me, basically,

483
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: he was like, yeah, the scientists are saying this is

484
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 1: I porton, but I can't figure out why it's so

485
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: interesting or important like it, I think to a lot

486
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: of people that had the texture of a kind of

487
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: dry observations. So it's like, okay, so we saw some waves,

488
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: what what does that mean? Like, there was nothing very

489
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 1: There are no strong image people could latch onto about it.

490
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: There was nothing that had all that much of a

491
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: personality about it. Right. It's it's in that that astro

492
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 1: physics black hole territory we've discussed before, where it's it's

493
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: really hard to have much in the way of personal

494
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 1: engagement with the topic. But if you if you get

495
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: into the subject, you realize this is one of the

496
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: most profound and awe inspiring things we have ever discovered

497
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: as human beings. I remember people saying that similar things,

498
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: like in when physicists announced that experiments of the large

499
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 1: hat around collider had found a particle they believed was

500
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: the Higgs boson, And I remember and then a lot

501
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: of people were like, well, I get that the physicists

502
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: are excited about this, but I don't really understand what

503
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: it means or why it's important. So if if you

504
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: felt that way about gravitation sational waves at the time,

505
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 1: this is a great book to read. It explains the

506
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: significance of the discovery, it puts it in context, it

507
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: gives you all that awe. But it also mainly focuses

508
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: on telling a story about the project to detect gravitational waves,

509
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: how it eventually succeeded despite all these many obstacles. And

510
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: I want to discuss that aspect of an a minute,

511
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 1: but first I just want to give you a taste.

512
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: So I want to read a passage from Levin's opening

513
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: chapter of her book, And the opening chapter has been published,

514
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: I think in a couple of places online, So you

515
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: can go read that yourself if you want to check

516
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: that out before you decide whether or not you want

517
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: to get the rest of the book, but just to

518
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: read from her her very opening quote. Somewhere in the universe,

519
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: two black holes collide, as heavy as stars, as small

520
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: as cities, literally black, the complete absence of light. Holes,

521
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: empty hollows tethered by gravity. In their final seconds together,

522
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: the black holes course through thousands of revolutions about their

523
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: eventual point of contact, churning up space and time, until

524
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: they crash and merge into one bigger black hole, an

525
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: event more powerful than any sense the origin of the universe,

526
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: outputting more than a trillion times the power of a

527
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: billion sons. The black holes collide in complete darkness. None

528
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: of the energy exploding from the collision comes out as light.

529
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: No telescope will ever see the event. That profusion of

530
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: energy emanates from the coalescing holes in a purely gravitational form,

531
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: as waves in the shape of space time as gravitational waves.

532
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: An astronaut floating nearby would see nothing, but the space

533
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: she occupied would ring, deforming her, squeezing than stretching. If

534
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: close enough, her auditory mechanism could vibrate in response, she

535
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: would hear the wave. In empty darkness, she could hear

536
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: space time ring. Barring death by black hole. Gravitational waves

537
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: are like sounds without a material medium. When black hole collide,

538
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: they make a sound that's wonderful. I feel like that's

539
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: good writing. Yeah, yeah, I mean, especially again when you're

540
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: dealing with something that can be so difficult to grasp. Um. Yeah,

541
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: she she manages to to to bring it to beautiful

542
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: life there. But another thing that I think is fantastic

543
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: about this book is about the way she tells the

544
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: story of the Ligo project and the discovery and all

545
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,959
Speaker 1: the characters involved. She really explores the role of personality

546
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: and politics and money and ego in one of these

547
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: most important scientific projects in recent history. Like you can

548
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: often get the feeling when you're reading about science just

549
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: from you know, say, articles in the news or in

550
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: Scientific American whatever, that scientists are often presented as sort

551
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: of like mechanistic uh discovery machines. Like a scientist appears

552
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: you've never heard of them before. They're quoted in an

553
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: article saying what they found in a new study so

554
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: the version that the face of them you get is

555
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: a person who appears to deliver a newly discovered piece

556
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: of information. And for some reason I feel like this,

557
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: at least in my mind, it can contribute to this

558
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: feeling that they're just sort of like machines whirring in

559
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: the background that eventually churn out information. Yeah, like with

560
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: with Lego in particular, I remember when when we're reading

561
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: up on this for the black Hole episode. Uh, I

562
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: certainly had the thought, like, I wonder if at any

563
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: point someone had to pitch this to a politician, And

564
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: this book is all about that, and I mean, you can,

565
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: perhaps you can, you can clude me out here, but

566
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: I can only imagine how difficult it would be able

567
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: to to explain what this was, especially with pictures, to

568
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: a politician who generally speaking, it's it's an exceedingly safe

569
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: bet that if you're talking about a politician, you're talking

570
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: about somebody with very limited scientific understanding. Well, you don't

571
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: even have to get to the politician level before politics

572
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: become an issue, because there's politics within the groups of

573
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: scientists who are anticipating the politics of politicians, because what

574
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: they're having to do is figure out Okay, we we

575
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: want to try to make experimental progress, but we know

576
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: funding is going to be limited, So what do we

577
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: do in order to get the best chance at getting

578
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: the funding that would get us to the experimental result?

579
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: And so their arguments about like, should we try to

580
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: do this incrementally in small little waves of experiments they

581
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: get bigger and bigger, or should we try to go

582
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: in all at once and build a huge facility that

583
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: can really prove what we want to show um And

584
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: they're serious debates about this, And the characters in it

585
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: are human. They're very human, and there's something just truly

586
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: fascinating and surprising about the story. This book tells that somehow,

587
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: from the meta organism of science, powerful profound, objective discoveries

588
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: are sort of cobbled together and achieved by collections of squabbleing,

589
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: flawed individuals through this sort of tape together ramshackle process.

590
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: It's not a book about the genius of anyone individual scientists,

591
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: though there are very smart scientists in it. It's a

592
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: book about a sort of emergent, impersonal genius, a collective

593
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: genius through process. And I mean that really goes back

594
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: to what we're talking about earlier with some of Sagan's

595
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: points about how like one of the points he made

596
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: in in in the in that book is that is

597
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: that you can't just teach like what science does. You

598
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: can't just teach the triumphs of science. You have to

599
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: teach the also the failures of science, the necessary failures

600
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: of science. There are a lot of failures in this book. Yeah,

601
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it's essential to understanding it. So

602
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: I means so that when a particular failure or or

603
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: a particular study that gets rejected whatever. We've all seen

604
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: examples of this, when that makes the news, people aren't

605
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: going but don't think, well, I guess we can't trust

606
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: these scientists because they got it wrong. Because them getting

607
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: it wrong is essential. Yeah. Yeah, it's in the intial

608
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: part of the process, and and it actually makes the

609
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: process work. Um. I also wanted to say just the

610
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: epilogue to this book is amazing. It gave me goose

611
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: bumps multiple times, both in its account of the lego

612
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: scientists trying to verify the first recorded signal and then

613
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: when it sort of placed that observation in the context

614
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: of the entire history of the observable universe. So I

615
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: would say this is a great book if you want

616
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: to know more about physics in a way that's very

617
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: clear and easy to understand. It's very well written, and

618
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: even more than that, it's a great book about the

619
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: nature of science and scientists themselves, and not as all

620
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: knowing gods, not as discovery machines, but as kind of scrappy, weird, clever,

621
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: deeply human characters who have systems of thought and tools

622
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: in place that eventually help them get it right. Awesome,

623
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: But we're gonna take one more break, and when we

624
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: come back we'll discuss some fiction. Thank alright, we're back.

625
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: So here's another one I don't think I've mentioned on

626
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: the podcast before, and this one is a book called

627
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: The Soul of an Octopus, A Surprising Exploration into the

628
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: wonder of Consciousness by Si Montgomery from uh So uh Sy.

629
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: Montgomery is a naturalist and author. She's written books about

630
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: other Most of her books seem to be about animals,

631
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: but this is the only one of hers I've read.

632
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: Um But so, I already think I knew sort of

633
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: how interesting octopuses were, at least in theory. Like you know,

634
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 1: I'd read all of their crazy feats of escape, they're

635
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: inquiring play behaviors, the way they they play with different

636
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: objects and sort of penetrate locked boxes and things like that.

637
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: They're surprising predation strategies. The way they squeeze through holes

638
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: only a tiny fraction of the size of their bodies.

639
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: The way they seal themselves in their dens with rock

640
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: coverings or armor themselves with coconut halves, the way they

641
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: taste with their skin and change color to mimic their

642
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: surroundings with this kind of frightening accuracy. All this stuff.

643
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: But what I did not know before reading this book

644
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: was how emotional I could feel about an octopus. So,

645
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: so you're you're not recommending this to like hardcore sushi enthusiasts.

646
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: Definitely not if you if you wanna keep eating octopus

647
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: without thinking about a book that made you cry. Uh,

648
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 1: this book is just an absolute delight. I'm not sure

649
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: exactly what genre to call it. I would say it's

650
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: partially a science book about zoology biology marine invertebrates, primarily

651
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: the octopus, so it cites a lot of research in

652
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: it and talks a lot about observations of octopus behavior.

653
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: But that's only part of it. It's also partially a

654
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: personal memoir specifically about and I am not kidding one

655
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 1: bit here, love, affection, and the complicated personal relationships between

656
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: humans and cephalopods. There is a lot of human and

657
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 1: octopus love in this book. And it's also partially a

658
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: philosophical and occasionally theological reflection on the nature of consciousness

659
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: and mind and people's beliefs about the soul and how

660
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: those concepts could or could not and should or should

661
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: not be applied to animals like the octopus. So this

662
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: book's really kind of got it all. It's full of

663
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: interesting facts and observations and anecdotes from experts about octopuses,

664
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: but it's also got this moving personal narrative that I'm

665
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: pretty sure if you have feelings, will make you cry

666
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: about octopuses. And I mean really, I literally cried about

667
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: an octopus in the first chapter of this book. And

668
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: it is uh. It's a It's got a thoughtful and

669
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: earnest consideration of what consciousness consists, of whether other animals

670
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: possess it, what it would be like to have the

671
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: mind of an octopus. Um, there's here's just one example

672
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 1: of the kinds of thoughts about octopus consciousness that are

673
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: explored in this book. So you have to consider the

674
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: way the octopus nervous system is put together. It is

675
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: very different than our mammalian nervous system, where we've got

676
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: a brain where most of our neurons are, and then

677
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: you've got a spinal column and you know, nerves reaching

678
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: out throughout the body that can send information back and forth.

679
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: But but basically we think pretty much all of the

680
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 1: bulk of the information processing happens in the brain. An

681
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: octopus has a brain, but in a significant way, it

682
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: looks like the body itself and not just the brain

683
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: does a lot of the thinking with with neurons loaded

684
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: in different parts of the body. Specifically, it's individual arms,

685
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: and the arms pass nerve signals along within each other

686
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: that never even seemed to reach the brain. So, if

687
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: you have a nervous system like this, and if you

688
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: consider what would happen if there is such a thing

689
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: as consciousness or experience in an animal like this, what

690
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: would that consciousness be like? Would it even make sense

691
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: to believe it was confined to a single sensation of self? Like?

692
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: Could it be possible um to have consciousness without having

693
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: a sense of self? You are conscious, but you have

694
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: no concept of I. Instead, there are sort of like

695
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: multiple networks all can acted that are having an experience

696
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: but don't necessarily identify themselves as a self. I mean,

697
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: this is the sort of thing that it really makes

698
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: makes me sound I mean, it makes me feel silly

699
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: when we do ask questions like what is the what

700
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: is the mind of the octopus? You know, like like

701
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 1: in the sense that we are trying to, uh, just

702
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: compare it to what we have like this this this

703
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: narrow human you know, cognitive dimension that we we place

704
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: so much emphasis on what is the octopus is human mind?

705
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: Like yeah, and it's like it doesn't have a human mind.

706
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: It has this this other form of of of of cognition,

707
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: of of of of of neural control. And it's by

708
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: trying to compare it to us and using our minds

709
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: as the gold standard. Uh, it just it sets up

710
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: this in this impossible task right where we just say, oh, well,

711
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: it's not like it's not like what we have, so

712
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: it it can't be. It can't be on the same level.

713
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: It's like what kind of car too does this animal have?

714
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: What doesn't have a car? It has a motorcycle? A

715
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: well it's unless you're being You've just heard the call

716
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 1: for an octopus motorcycle gang movie. I would watch it. Well,

717
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: they made were Wolves on wheels, why not octopods on wheel?

718
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: It would make one rad um. What do you call it?

719
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: The cut? The motorcycle jack hut or whatever. Yeah, but

720
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: they caught it a cut. I think kind of sons

721
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: of anarchy, Sons of anarchies where I get most of

722
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: my biker knowledge that in Wear Wolves on Wheels. I

723
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: don't know much about biker lowre that's not in Wearwolves

724
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: on Wheel. I'm just say it would make a cool

725
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: uh MC logo. Yeah it would. But then again, I

726
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: think about how so if an octopus was to drive

727
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 1: a motorcycle, it might have trouble. It might have trouble

728
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: because I wonder if it's arms that are controlling, say,

729
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: the different handles of the bike would really coordinate all

730
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: that well. Because another thing that's very weird that the

731
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: book talks about is the concept that the individual arms

732
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: of an octopus us have individual personalities as much as

733
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: individual octopuses have different personalities than one another, and they

734
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 1: very much seem to like there. There are lots of

735
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: people who work with octopuses who have found that an

736
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: octopus will have continually more shy or bold arms. It's

737
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: almost just as if the arms are minds within the

738
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: overall body that can express themselves in different ways. That

739
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: is fascinating. So what if you had a shy arm

740
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: and a bold arm, or like a peaceful arm and

741
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 1: an angry arm. It seems like that kind of thing

742
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: could actually be possible with an octopus. But like I

743
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, a lot of this book is also it's

744
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: sort of narrative memoir. It's like about the relationships between

745
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: the author and other humans and octopuses, and these relationships

746
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: often seem, if this makes any sense, to actually be

747
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: based on mutual friendship and affection. There are these large

748
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: passages about people, including the author, just touching octopuses and

749
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: letting octopuses touch them, and it you know, it's possible.

750
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: Maybe the love and relationship is an illusion, like a

751
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: mere projection from the minds of the people who spend

752
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: a lot of time touching and feeding octopuses, but they

753
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: seem very convinced and just as a point of comparison,

754
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 1: like what if somebody told you that your relationship with

755
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: your favorite pet your dog or whatever was just a

756
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: projection of your mind, and your dog had no mind

757
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: or experience. It was just exhibiting stimulus response behavior. You know,

758
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: you can't rule that out as a possibility, we have

759
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 1: to say scientifically, as far as we know, that's possible,

760
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 1: just really doesn't seem true to people's experience. And then again,

761
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 1: on the other hand, the human relationship with the octopus

762
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: is such an alien kind of relationship. These are these

763
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,919
Speaker 1: are not dogs, these are not mammals, they're not even

764
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: vertebrates that they might as well be from another planet.

765
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: They're clearly very intelligent based on their behavior and their

766
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: problem solving abilities, but the nature of their intelligence is

767
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: so unbelievably strange to us. And one part of the

768
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: book talks about that. You know, so they're they're all

769
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: these sort of like cuddling sessions between humans and octopods

770
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 1: in this book. And so you've got these sessions where

771
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: octopuses and aquariums are cuddling with their caretakers, embracing voluntarily

772
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: with their arms, stroking each other in a way that say,

773
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: a human and a dog would share physical contact and affection.

774
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: But then this often ends with the octopus pulling, pulling,

775
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: with this enormous strength, trying to pull you down into

776
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: the water into its tank. So what's it doing there?

777
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it seemed to be excited to see you

778
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: showing positive displays when you show up, it wants to

779
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: touch you and all that, and then it starts to

780
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 1: pull you in. What's going Is it trying to eat you?

781
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 1: Is it trying to drown you? Is it trying to

782
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: come see if you'll come into the water and play

783
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: with it. There's so many wonderful mysteries to consider about

784
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: the mind of an octopus, if such a thing exists,

785
00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: and we can't even necessarily comprehend the cognition behind in

786
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 1: the behavior is even though there's clearly something complex going on.

787
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: That reminds me a bit of a Jonathan Colton song

788
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: about I think it was called I Crush Everything. I

789
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: could be wrong on that, but it's the It's a

790
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: tragic love song of of a giant squid that falls

791
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: in love with love with ships and he goes to

792
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: embrace them, but it cannot help a crush and pull

793
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: them under. That's fantastic. I'd like to hear that. But

794
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: another thing so but so I will say Um. I

795
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: want to offer a couple of caveats about the book

796
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: in a second, but I wholeheartedly recommend this book, despite

797
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: whatever disagreements I have with the author on individual points. Uh.

798
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: She she's a great writer. It's a great story. It'll

799
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: really make you think about other animals. Uh. And the

800
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: cool part is I also noticed she writes a lot

801
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 1: of children's books, and I imagine she would be great

802
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: at this. Yes, and I'm actually pretty excited about one

803
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: that is sadly not out yet. It doesn't come out

804
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: until September September twenty, I believe that this year. But

805
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: it's titled Inky's Amazing Escape, How a Very Smart Octopus

806
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: Found his Way Home. Uh and and it is by

807
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: sy Montgomery, and then it's illustrated by Amy Schimmeler Safford.

808
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: And I've I've looked at some of the pages that

809
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: are available you and it looks it looks wonderful. What's

810
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: going to deal with an octopus that escapes from, you know,

811
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: a human habitat and uh and and I believe it's

812
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: going to be an exploration of some of the themes

813
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: that we've just we've just discussed. But of course, uh,

814
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: aimed and condensed for for for children to read or

815
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: for parents to read with their children. Uh, it looks great.

816
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 1: It's available for preorder now. Uh. I accidentally purchased another

817
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: octopus book when I was looking for this one. Other

818
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: octopus children's books. Yes, yeah, so not The Soul of

819
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 1: an Octopus, but the children's right. I accidentally past thinking

820
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 1: I was, I was grabbing, uh, the sy Montgomery book.

821
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: I grabbed one called Octopus Escapes Again by Laurie ellen

822
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: Angus that is currently available for purchase. And uh, and

823
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: this one is actually really great too. This one is

824
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: a beautifully all straded book that just shows a instead

825
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: of an octopus escaping from human captivity, it's an octopus

826
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: trying to feed, trying to is trying to sustain itself

827
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: in the natural world and having to elude various predators

828
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: to do so. And it's one of these these wonderful

829
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: kids books that it doesn't anthrop anthropomorphies or or overly

830
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: anthropomorphizes an animal. It depicts actual um predatory and in

831
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: defense activities by and behaviors by the animal, but also

832
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: in a very relatable and child appropriate way. Well that's

833
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: a happy accident. Yeah, yeah, I read that one to

834
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: my son this morning, and he he loved it. While

835
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: I'm on the topic of children's literature, uh, since it

836
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: seems like I read a lot of children's literature this

837
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: day of these days, since you have a six year old, um,

838
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: and I don't have time, of course, to to highlight

839
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: all of the really cool children's books out there. I

840
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 1: love it when a children's book does a great job

841
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: of making a scientific topic, UM enjoyable and and and

842
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 1: grasp able by a child. Uh and uh. And there

843
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: I read a lot of dinosaur books because my my child,

844
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: like a lot of children, really loves dinosaurs, and and

845
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: well he should. But I recently ran across one titled

846
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: Explorer Dinosaurs Dinosaurs and all caps with an exclamation point.

847
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: And this is a book by Nick Forshaw and Andy

848
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: for Shaw, and it's part of the Explorer series with

849
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: books on bugs, mammals, and plants. And it's it's just

850
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 1: so good that technically it's illustrated by Andy Forshaw and

851
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: written by Nicholas Forshaw, Patrick Skipworth and Christopher Lloyd, not

852
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: back Christopher Lloyd, different Christopher Lloyd. Uh. And it's published

853
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: by What on Earth Books. It delivers in ways that

854
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: a lot of children's dinosaurs books do you know. It

855
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 1: has some wonderful illustrations of the creatures, uh, you know,

856
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: depictions of their anatomy, and discussions of paleontology. But I

857
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: do find that, first of all, this one goes a

858
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: little deeper than a lot of kids dinosaurs book dinosaur books.

859
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 1: For instance, it gets into the k T extinction event,

860
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: it talks about various other are major extinction events that

861
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:10,439
Speaker 1: have occurred, uh during the Earth's history, even the one

862
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: that we are seemingly in right now. And uh. And

863
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: the the illustrations as well in this book are are

864
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: are a different type of illustration that I've seen recently

865
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 1: in children's dinosaurs books, because generally what I I I see,

866
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: I see, of course, like sort of classical realistic examples

867
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:30,959
Speaker 1: of paleo art, you know, where you have some really

868
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: gorgeous dinosaurs that look real and I love that kind

869
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: of stuff. Then you have like terrible c g I,

870
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: which there's way too much of in dinosaur books for children.

871
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: And then you have it in books not like straight

872
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: up books. You'll see book after book where your computer

873
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: generated images in books print of dinosaurs, and it seems

874
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 1: like it's been a popular thing less twenty years, and uh,

875
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: I hate most of it. Even if the content is good,

876
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: it's like there's a terrible dinosaur illustration. I'm instantly thrown off.

877
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: And then likewise, sometimes it's stuff is too cartoony, but

878
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: this stuff strikes a really wonderful balance. These illustrations feel

879
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 1: like animals, but there's just enough like a cartoonish whimsy

880
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: to them that they feel unique. So this is a

881
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: This is a wonderful book. It also has a six

882
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: foot fold out of dinosaurs presented in chronological order, so

883
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: I highly recommend that one as well. And finally, but

884
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: before we close out the nonfiction portion of the podcast,

885
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 1: we receive a lot of free books from publishers here

886
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 1: at the show promoting new publications. Most of these look awesome,

887
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: and we don't have time to really even use most

888
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: of them on the show. Others were getting around too.

889
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: We have like a growing stack of books and and

890
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 1: authors and experts that were like, oh man, we've got

891
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 1: to We've gotta have this author on to discuss this book,

892
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: and sometimes it takes several months or a year to

893
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 1: get around to it. Um, but I wanted to highlight.

894
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 1: Uh just really quickly. Here a book called How to

895
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: Live in Space Everything you Need to Know for the

896
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,720
Speaker 1: not so distant Future. I Colin Stewart, who's a fellow

897
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:06,240
Speaker 1: at the Royal Astronomical Society and an accomplished astronomy journalists.

898
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: This one is going to be published by Smithsonian Books

899
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,800
Speaker 1: also this September, but it's but it is also available

900
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: for pre order, so if you I would recommend this

901
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: if you were a space sci fi writer, pick it up.

902
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: If you're planning to go into space, maybe read a

903
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 1: copy just in case you miss something. But it's a

904
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: perfect crash course in the history, the present, and the

905
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,959
Speaker 1: future of space exploration, in space, travel, of humanities, life

906
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: beyond our Planet. Is divided into three sections. You have training,

907
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 1: Life in Space and the Future, which deals with space tourism,

908
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: the Moon, Mars, asteroids, and interstellar travel. So again I

909
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: highly recommend this book if you're if you're into space,

910
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: if you want to write some sci fi, if you're

911
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: just into science fiction, um, it's definitely worth picking up.

912
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 1: Very very readable. So I do want to say before

913
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 1: we leave the subject of the octopus. The Soul of

914
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: an Octopus by Si Montgomery while while I do think

915
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: it is a fantastic book, I also want to say

916
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: that I do not necessarily agree with all of the

917
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: ideas she expresses in the book, because there's an ongoing

918
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: debate about animal cognition, animal consciousness and all that stuff, right,

919
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: and Montgomery is clearly opinionated, Like you can definitely tell

920
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: she believes that an octopus has some form of consciousness,

921
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: and she often reads intentions into animal behavior in a

922
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: way that would probably not be strictly appropriate if she were, say, like,

923
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: researching animal behavior in a lab. But the book is

924
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: not necessarily intended as an unbiased scientific investigation. It's sort

925
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: of about the facts and the science about octopuses, but

926
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: also about the felt experience of having a relationship with

927
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: a non human animal and a potential alien mind. And

928
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, we know what that feels like

929
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 1: if you've got like a dog, right, and an unbiased

930
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 1: observer in a lab, but might not want to speculate

931
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: about what a dog's mind is like. But if you've

932
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 1: got a pet dog and you interact with it all

933
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: the time, you're gonna attribute a mind to it. Almost

934
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: everybody does, and so a lot of the book is

935
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: just about that experience, but not with a dog with

936
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,399
Speaker 1: something very slimy and writhing that sometimes wants to pull

937
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: you into the deep. One last idea I want to

938
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: mention before we move on is the idea of the

939
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 1: words soul. So soul is there in the title of

940
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: the book, and I often am really frustrated that there

941
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: is not a widely used secular word for soul, divorced

942
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: of all the supernatural connotations of the soul, like I

943
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 1: think the soul is such a useful concept and doesn't

944
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 1: have to be bound up in supernatural ideas like dual

945
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 1: is um or ghosts or the soul surviving the body.

946
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: What I mean is soul in the sense of the

947
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: most enduring and important parts of your personality, your integrity,

948
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: your values, and your value uh the core of who

949
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: you are as a person. And I think soul in

950
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: that sense is a useful concept, and it's a very

951
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: powerful word that no other word in English really substitutes for.

952
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: Or I sometimes find myself wondering if it can be

953
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: rescued for this usage without always implying something about supernaturalism

954
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: to people. I find myself using and thinking about the

955
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 1: term mind state more and more like that as a

956
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:21,359
Speaker 1: sort of a less loaded term for soul. Yeah, but

957
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 1: I feel like that that doesn't convey all of those

958
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 1: kind of um permanent and important qualities that sold does.

959
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 1: You know, Like you you could tell somebody that that

960
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 1: their behavior, you know, reflects something about their soul, and

961
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 1: that's saying something different than saying it reflects something about

962
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: their mind state. Though if you say soul, the person

963
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: thinks you're talking about something magic. I think it's part

964
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: of the problem. The right soul has come to represent

965
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: a number of ideas that that that at the very least,

966
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: like speaking kindly about them, cannot be proven. Uh. And

967
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: and I'm not just talking about the idea that there's

968
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 1: something in us, there's something of us that survives death,

969
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: uh the eye deea, that there is this kind of

970
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 1: like moral creature within all of us, that sort of thing. Yeah,

971
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: It's obviously got connotations that branch out in all different

972
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: kinds of directions. Uh. Though if anyway, if you if

973
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 1: you do explore the book, there is an interesting part.

974
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: It's very brief, but she does also contemplate the theological

975
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: implications of octopus minds and octopus souls. Uh. And and

976
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 1: I thought that was an interesting consideration to sort of

977
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: from a religious perspective that I had never considered before,

978
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 1: Like is there an afterlife for an octopus? Uh? No,

979
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: not so much that, but like a responsibility, like the

980
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: responsibilities of a religious person to an octopus. No, more

981
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: like straightforwardly, like if there is such a thing as

982
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: a soul, do octopuses have souls? Like do dogs have souls? Well?

983
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,240
Speaker 1: Do octopuses have souls? And would they have one soul

984
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 1: or would they I don't know each limb, like you say,

985
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: like multiple souls or maybe even that doesn't make sense. Yeah,

986
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: it's almost like this is a problematic term that that

987
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: doesn't really apply to anything in the natural world, or

988
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:05,359
Speaker 1: does it. The discussion continues, but anyway, soulivan octopus, big

989
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: thumbs up from me. Okay, looks like we're gonna have

990
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: to call it there for today, because, as we mentioned,

991
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: we started talking about books and then we talked for

992
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: way too long for a single podcast episode. So we're

993
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: gonna make this part one of our two parts Summer

994
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: Reading episode. If you want to continue the conversation, join

995
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 1: us again next time. That's right. In the meantime, head

996
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 1: on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

997
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: That's where you will find all the podcast episodes, including

998
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: past Summer reading episodes. Uh and oh yeah. If you

999
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: want more information, you want links, you want titles, you

1000
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: want the specific spelling for some of these authors were discussing.

1001
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: There will be a list of the books discussed here

1002
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: on the landing page for this episode at stuff to

1003
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. If you want to support

1004
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 1: the show, rate and review us wherever you have the

1005
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: power to do so, big thanks as always to our

1006
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: wonderful audio producers Alex Williams and Terry Harrison. If you

1007
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 1: want to get in touch with us directly to let

1008
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 1: us know feedback on this episode or any other episode,

1009
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: to suggest books we should read, to suggest topics we

1010
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 1: should do in the future, to just say hi, let

1011
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:05,399
Speaker 1: us know where you listen from how you found out

1012
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 1: about the show. You can email us at blow the

1013
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: Mind at how stuff works dot com for more on

1014
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff

1015
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 1: works dot Com would