1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Welcome back to it could happen here a show about 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: how things are following up art at least generally, a 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: show about how things are falling apart, um and how 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: to you know, maybe maybe not falling apart that much. 5 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: But we have a we have a little bit of 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: a different episode for you today. A friend of a 7 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: friend of mine reached out to me recently in the 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: wake of a pair of episodes we did From Behind 9 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: the Bastards on sexual abuse within the Boy Scouts of America, 10 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: which was, if you're not aware, and endemic problem, with 11 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: more than a hundred thousand victims having come forward in 12 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: the last year alone. UM. And this is a case 13 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: that kind of ties into that. Uh. It's it's the 14 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: case of a young man UM who committed murder and 15 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: the young man who was also UM a victim of 16 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: a terrible series of crime. So I wanted to kind 17 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: of shine a little bit of light on the case 18 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: of Heath Stocks today. UM. And to help me do 19 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: that is Mr Michael Kaiser. Michael, welcome to the show, 20 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: Good afternoon, Thanks for having me. Michael. Would you like 21 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: to introduce is kind of your affiliation with this case 22 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: before we go over the broad strokes of it. Sure. Um, Again, 23 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: my name is Michael Kaiser. I'm a criminal defense attorney 24 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: with the Last and Cassinelli Firm in Little Rock, Arkansas. UM. 25 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: This case started in the nineties and I was I'm 26 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: thirty two, so I was not practicing. Then I came 27 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: into this case in the last two years after Heath 28 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: has already I've been sentenced to three life sentences, and 29 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: I assisted him in filing a petition for a commutation 30 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: asking for the Governor of Arkansas to reduce those sentences 31 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: to a term of years and giving him a chance 32 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: of parole while he is still alive. And and can we, uh, 33 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: let's go over kind of what happened in this case 34 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: the basis because this is this is a really sad story, UM, 35 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: and it's one of those things where there's there's not 36 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: a lot of I think, easy answers. But yeah, let's 37 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: let's talk about sort of the broad strokes of what happened, 38 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: and then we can drill into what what you're trying 39 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: to achieve. Year. Sure, so the broad strokes are back 40 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: in nine seven, UM, when Heath was a young man, UM, 41 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: just twenty years old. UM, he was arrested and charged 42 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: with killing his entire immediate family, both his mother, father, UM, 43 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 1: and his younger sister. He was quickly identified as the 44 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 1: primary suspect, questioned, confessed, arrested, charged, and within I believe 45 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: six months, had pleaded guilty to all three capital murders 46 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 1: and received a sense of life without parole for each 47 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: each one of those, for a total of three life sentences. UM. 48 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: Shortly after he was convicted, UM, it came to light 49 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 1: that his longtime boy scout scout Master Jack Walls had 50 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: been molesting Heat since he was around age nine or ten. 51 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: UM that it was a serial sort of abuse, that 52 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: he that Heath was not the only one. UM, that 53 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: it was particularly brutal, and that his abuse didn't just 54 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: involve you know, sexual acts. UM, it was kind of 55 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: a long term I hate to use the term brainwashing, 56 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: but a lot of people have about what he did 57 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 1: to those boys. UM. Heats is not the only life 58 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: that was ruined. He's family is not the only families 59 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: lives who were ruined. UM, but Heats is unfortunately the 60 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: most extreme case UM where where he he ultimately committed 61 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 1: a crime against against his family. We'll get into the 62 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: circumstances in a second, I just want to add a 63 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: little bit of clarification that the Scout master, we're looking 64 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: at between a hundred and a hundred and fifty victims, 65 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: kind of conservatively based on what I've been reading. Yes, Yeah, 66 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: and it's it's some of I mean, it's so this guy. 67 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: Some of it's the stuff that you heard in a 68 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: lot of these other cases. Some of it is is 69 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: very unique to this guy. But he would basically he 70 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: would have people over, kids over camping on his land. Um, 71 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: he would take them shooting, he worked for any munition company. UM, 72 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: he would molest them. He would also like purchase prostitutes 73 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: for them. And it was this, UM, I mean a 74 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: lot of of really some of the worst abuse that 75 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: I've read about in connection to any of these these 76 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: boy scout sexual abuse cases. UM, it's it's pretty harrowing 77 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: stuff when you read the stories of other kids, um, 78 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: who were kind of in the same position that Heath was. Yeah, Unfortunately, 79 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: you're you're correct. It's you know, every time you think 80 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: this can't get worse, or this case is so extreme, 81 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 1: that you find some other element that's more offensive, more appalling, 82 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: more victims, more more families ruined down the line even 83 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: um today thirty forty years fifty years later. M. Yeah, 84 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: so how does the because I mean, one of the 85 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: things about this is this is a pretty the initial 86 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: crime here is pretty horrific, um, And I think it's 87 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: it's one of those things where it is hard to 88 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: have a lot of sympathy for he until you kind 89 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: of learned about what this guy like, his his his 90 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: role in the crime, because it was not just a 91 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: case of, um, you know, a kid committing murder. It 92 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: was a case of a kid being um, very deliberately 93 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: pushed into committing murder, and potentially I think that there's 94 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: the allegations being made her that he was he directly 95 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: helped with it as well. Yes, Um, so you know, 96 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: at first glance, yeah, it looks it looks really bad 97 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: for Heath, um. But over the years, um, what we 98 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: have learned is that what what really happened is that 99 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: Heath had been serially abused sexually, physically, emotionally and otherwise 100 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: by Jack for a period of ten plus years. His 101 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: mother discovers the abuse and discusses it with her, her 102 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: pastor another religious counselor. Uh. Heath informs Jack that you know, 103 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: his mother is aware, and and Jack instructs Heath to 104 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: do as he's been taught, UM, and and to kill 105 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: the problem. UM. Jack was never convicted with anything associated 106 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,239 Speaker 1: with the death of of the Stocks family. UM. However, 107 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: his first set of life sentences for the many assaults 108 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: that he was convicted of, UM, when they were reversed. 109 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: It was because the judge in that in that sentencing 110 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: hearing said, you know that the death of the Stocks 111 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: family is also on your hands. And because he hadn't 112 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: been formally convicted of that, he actually had his original 113 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: life sentences reversed. Every sentencing he got essentially the same sentence, 114 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: multiple life sentences in additional years. UM. But yes, there 115 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: there's there is a connection. UM. It wasn't known at 116 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: the time, or at least it wasn't publicized, And if 117 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: if it had been, I think the results of his 118 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: case would be very different. I don't think you and 119 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: I would be speaking right now. Yeah. And it's I mean, 120 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: obviously like, this is this is this is a thoroughly 121 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: horrible situation. UM. And when somebody commits three murders, I 122 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: think even people who are very critical of the criminal 123 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: justice system should agree that, like something needs to be done, 124 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: But I it just seems so unfair to lock this 125 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: kit up for his entire life without kind of and 126 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: and and acting as if this was just a thing 127 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: he did on his own, rather than kind of the 128 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: result of a pretty horrific I mean, one of the 129 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: most one of the most horrific patterns of abuse and 130 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: exploitation of a of a child that I can imagine. 131 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: UM And I don't know, I don't know what would 132 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: actually like help other than getting him into a situation 133 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: where he's not spending the rest of his life in 134 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: a prison cell. Like I don't know what the long 135 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: term for him looks like in terms of rebuilding this 136 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: guy's potential to have a life, but it certainly starts 137 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: with him not spending the rest of that life in 138 00:07:53,920 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: a jail cell. The problem we've encountered, UM with Heat's 139 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: case is the parole board, and many just even just 140 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: people that encounter the case wonder why would he attack 141 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: and kill you know, his immediate family rather than his abuser. 142 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: And in the twenty five plus years or in the 143 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: five years or so since this happened, I mean juvenile 144 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: that our understanding of the juvenile brain, neuropsycho psychology in general, 145 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: UM has has come leap leaps and bounds, and so 146 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: we know that a serially abused child has brain damage 147 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: from really about the time that that starts happening. And 148 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: so in Heats crazy world, and we do have this 149 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: in our clemency application. We've had UM abuse specialists evaluate 150 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: Heath and see how he you know, his actions conformed 151 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: to our current understanding. Within the crazy world that he 152 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: lived in. He actually was making dare I say, the 153 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: reasonable decision. So Jack had demonstrated numerous times over the 154 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: years he has physical, sexual, and and even control over 155 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: heats life. He can end it at any time. He 156 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: explicitly and implicitly threatens the boys all the time. He's 157 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: got weapons everywhere. He's a Vietnam veteran. He brings them 158 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: out to his property, shows them how to shoot, shows 159 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: them what he will do to those who you know, 160 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: go against him. UM, So, within Heat's world, he actually 161 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: made a somewhat reasonable decision. He uh, the bigger threat 162 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: was was Jack. Um. He can't kill Jack, so he 163 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: has to do the thing to appease Jack to avoid 164 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: the more severe abuse. That's oversimplifying it, but that's something 165 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: that I don't think we would have been able to 166 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: conceptualize back in the nineties. You had the element of 167 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 1: there's it's it's mail on mail, and we're talking about 168 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: a very small rural community um, Central Arkansas, and that 169 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: element cannot be overlooked at all as well. That was 170 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: a huge thing that Jack was counting on to keep 171 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: these boys silent. Um. He explicitly told them, if you 172 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: tell what happened to you, they're going to think that 173 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: you are homosexual and a liar. So there's just there's 174 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: there's just so many horrible things in this case. Jack 175 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: had decades of experience doing this, and unfortunately, because of 176 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: his position in the community, the son of a prominent judge, UM, 177 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: the longtime scout master, the community's man of the Year 178 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: multiple times, UM, he had access to dozens and dozens 179 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: of boys, in fact, entire generations of these of these 180 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: boys in Lono County. Um Heat's case is just one 181 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: of many. Unfortunately, it's the most extreme case and it's 182 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,599 Speaker 1: kind of tests the bounds of our mercy. But the 183 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: kid that discovered Jack, while he's a hero, ultimately he 184 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: killed himself and he's not the only one. So unfortunately, 185 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: the Stocks family are not the only people who lost 186 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: their lives and not the only people whose lives, just 187 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: like he's, were completely destroyed by Jack Walls. Yeah, and 188 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: this is this is an important thing to understand because 189 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: when we're talking about kind of the lingering impacts of 190 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: childhood sexual abuse, it can take a wide variety of 191 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: forms and when we like but but it but it 192 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: is important to understand that the damage it can do 193 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: goes so much further beyond like the physical damage done 194 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: by the abuse, like these are your your brain is 195 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: still forming and growing when you're that young, and he 196 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: this is one manifestation of kind of what can happen 197 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: UM at the more extreme end, admittedly, um as as 198 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: the result like this is why it's such a heinous 199 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: crime to abuse a child in this way. And it's 200 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: just I don't know, like you're right, it is it 201 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: It tests the limit of UM people's capacity for I 202 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: don't know, forgiveness seems like the wrong word, but like Clemens, see, 203 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, this again is a pretty heinous crime. Um. 204 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I can't bring myself to 205 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: think that what he endured leading up to this shouldn't 206 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: have an impact on what happens to him afterwards, right 207 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: like it does. It does reduce his his complicity in this, 208 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: And I just feel it feels so wrong to say that, like, well, 209 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: he should spend the rest of his life behind bars, 210 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: Like that's just not I can't imagine anything could help, 211 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: Like I can't imagine that could help in any way. Um, 212 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: just writing this this person off forever. I don't know. 213 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: It just is, it's it's fucked. What are the next 214 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: steps for y'all, for your for the defense team. So 215 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: at this point, we've already filed a petition with the 216 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: Arkansas governor requesting a commutation. That's not a pardon, that's 217 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: not something saying say that Heath is innocent. We're asking 218 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: the governor to modify his sentences to a term of years. 219 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: Forty year is in each case to be served concurrently, 220 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: So in effect, one single sentence of forty years. Uh. Well, 221 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: in Arkansas, you're actually at the time he was convicted, 222 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: he'd be parle eligible at se So that's twenty eight years. 223 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: That's not a guarantee of parole, that is just what 224 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: it means, parole eligibility. So that's what we've asked for. Um, 225 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: we think his institutional record speaks for itself, and if 226 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: and when he is a candidate for parole, he hopefully 227 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: will make parole. He's he's done everything within his power 228 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: UM to do so. UM. If this fails, it's right now. Uh. 229 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: We in Arkansas at first goes to the parole board, 230 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: who makes a non binding recommendation to the governor. They 231 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: have recommended that the governor deny it. UM, which is unfortunate, 232 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: but again it's not binding. UM. The governor now has 233 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: I believe until February or March of two to issue 234 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: his decision. UM. He has not yet. UM. We have 235 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: requested a sit down with the governor. I don't know 236 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: if we'll actually sit down with Governor Asa Hutchinson. We 237 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: will sit down with his criminal justice coordinator. UM. We're 238 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: thankful and lucky to have the support of all of 239 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: the remaining victims family members. So both sides of Heat's family. UM, 240 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: you know we have we have extensive support. UM. It 241 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: wasn't they they A lot of them had to work 242 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: to get to this point, a lot of them had 243 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: to understand the true impact of the abuse. But at 244 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: this point, we have extensive support from both sides of 245 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: his family. UM. As far as we know, there are 246 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: no objections to his commutation application from from victims family members. 247 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: The only ones that there have been are from the 248 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: sentencing judge or from the sentencing court. It's actually not 249 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: the same judge and the sentencing or the prosecutor from 250 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: that from that county, again a different person, um, but 251 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: they felt the need to object it. Should this fail, 252 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: we will seek additional post conviction remedies um uh. In Arkansas, 253 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: we have something called a petition for writ of ericorum 254 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: nobis um. You can file it. You have to ask 255 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, Hey, is it okay if I file 256 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: a petition back in the trial court asking them to 257 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: consider something that, if we had known back in ninety eight, 258 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: would have affected the outcome of the litigation. In this case, 259 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: we would point to the we we've had heath evaluated. UM. 260 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: It will point to that neuropsychological evaluation UM as as 261 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: new evidence. UM. We couldn't fully make a connection at 262 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: the time between his abuse and the offense to answer 263 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: that question why he killed his family rather than his abuser. 264 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: We now can, and so that's what we're going to allege, 265 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: is that is that new evidence UM. Whether the court 266 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: will will find that it is remains to be seen. 267 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: When Heath tried this on his own about five years ago, 268 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: the court denied it. He alleged the new evidence was 269 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: the fact of the long term sexual abuse of him 270 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: by Jack Walls, and the court in a in an 271 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: opinion that really does not um you know, shows shows 272 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: the lack of understanding of long term juvenile sexual abuse, 273 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: found that well though you personally were aware of all 274 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: of that in your own mind because it had happened 275 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: to you, So that was not new evidence. And I mean, 276 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: we know that the average male who makes this sort 277 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: of disclosure, it occurs deep into adulthood. So it's just 278 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: at every level of the system. Even today, we're still 279 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: feeling the effects of kind of that old school mentality 280 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: about about this, and it's unfortunate. We could talk about 281 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: kind of the the car serile state and this idea 282 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: that like penalty is the way to respond to any 283 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: kind of crime. But even if you believe that, even 284 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: if you believe that, like you have to punish people 285 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: with incarceration when they commit crimes. He's done twenty five years, 286 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: Like that's no one. No one is discussing the possibility 287 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: of Heath not being punished for the murder, you know, 288 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: because it's he has been not just with time behind bars, 289 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: but the fact that his family has gone. The idea 290 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: that the state could do anything that's worse to him 291 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: than than the scout Master did, to be honest, is 292 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: kind of absurd in my head. But UM, where is 293 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: there anything that, like, I don't know, I'm trying to determine, 294 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: like what can be done to help in this situation? 295 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: Is there any way people can actually help outside of 296 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: like you and the team that's that's working to try 297 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: and sit down with the governor? Yeah? Um, I mean 298 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: public support is is wonderful. The more people that are 299 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: out the problems in Heath's case and with his sentences 300 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: and that are reaching out to the governor, UM, the 301 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: better we think our chances are. UM. I apologize, I 302 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: don't have the email address on me, but the governor 303 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: has several publicly accessible UM accounts, as does his criminal 304 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: justice coordinator. Even just getting on Facebook UM and and 305 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: bringing it up. UM, there's a Facebook account managed by 306 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: one of Heath's friends. I'm in Florida called at Hope 307 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: for heat Stocks. UM. It's a there's also a website. 308 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: I think it's Hope for heat stocks dot info. It's 309 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: probably the most extensive trove of resources in this case. 310 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: It has almost all original documents. It's where I still 311 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: go to access things when I need them, even though 312 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, I am his attorney. So there's a lot 313 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: out there. There's a lot of ways to support the cause, 314 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: even just telling other people about it. Um. We do 315 00:18:55,200 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: have a documentary in the works. UM. I actually don't 316 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: think it has a producer at this point, but we're 317 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: hopeful to have something out in early to make fith, 318 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: to make Jack, to make this case more of a 319 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 1: household name. UM. The hopes that you know, if any 320 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: sort of um, you know, if there's more support out there, 321 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: more pressure on the governor, it will increase the odds 322 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: that that will do the right thing here. Yeah, I mean, 323 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: this shouldn't be a political issue. There shouldn't be a 324 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: left or right thing. Like everyone should be able to 325 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: see this is uh, this is the result of abuse, 326 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: and that should have an impact on the what we 327 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: actually what's actually what our society actually does to this 328 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: kid in the wake of the crime. Perhaps it's like 329 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: foolish to hope for some sort of rationality as regards 330 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: a case like this, But I would hope that we 331 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: could be rational about this and everyone agree, yes, this 332 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 1: kid deserves some the more than what he's gotten. UM. 333 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's a bleak one though. That's 334 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: putting it lightly. New York recently recently passed a law 335 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: that kind of acknowledged kind of where you're at with 336 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: it for victims of domestic or sexual abuse who then 337 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: committed crimes um that weren't necessarily during the course of 338 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: that specific abuse UM. And it allowed people like Heath 339 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: to apply for resentencing if they met certain statutory qualifications 340 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: um for things that mitigated their crime didn't justify it, 341 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: but that didn't come out originally. Unfortunately, in Arkansas, we 342 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: don't have a similar process. The only thing we have 343 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: available is this clemency commutation process. And unfortunately, as you said, 344 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: it should be a political but it's not. It's it's 345 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,479 Speaker 1: explicitly political. The parole board are all appointees by our governor. 346 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: The governor is an elected official. There's a reason we 347 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: filed it in the last year of his last term 348 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: in Arkansas. He has term limited, so we're trying to 349 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: get him at a point where he's as free from 350 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: the politics to do what he actually thinks is correct. 351 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: But to think that politics will be removed is I mean, yeah, 352 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: it never is. No, this is this is the United 353 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: States inies, you know, politics is is a factor here, 354 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: and there's a deeply divisive case in the state and 355 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: especially in Lono County. Well, it's hard I can imagine 356 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: it being hard to talk with people about just because again, 357 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 1: the nature of the crime is is horrific. And so 358 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: if you talk about like, well, we we think this 359 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: guy should have another chance at life, and you're like, well, 360 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: but he killed three people, he killed his sister, and yes, 361 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: that is the case, but that's not the only thing 362 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: going down here. And you just have to I think, 363 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: if you're if you're at all, even if you're not 364 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: coming at this from kind of politically where I am 365 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: in regarding you know, the car serial state, you have 366 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that, like, this is not a race Heath's ribes, 367 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: but Keith's cribes were also the result of not just 368 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: the scout master's abuse, but of a number of failures 369 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: on a on a wide level in our society that 370 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: allowed that abuse to occur. Um and so I don't know. 371 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: I I feel like there's a lot of reasons why 372 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: it behooves us to give this kid another chance. I 373 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: don't know. That doesn't make it easier to convince anyone else, 374 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, well, how would this case play out if 375 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: it happened today versus in even in a more rural 376 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: part of Arkansas. I think our understanding of several of 377 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: the issues here it is so has come so far 378 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: that my hope is Heath would have received a term 379 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: of years rather than being charged with capital murder. They 380 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: originally we're seeking the death penalty, and he made a 381 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: deal for multiple life sentences, both as someone under twenty 382 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: one and as a victim of long term sexual abuse. 383 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,719 Speaker 1: I would like to think that if this happened today, 384 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: even in that county, what we're asking for is something 385 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 1: close to what what would what would happen? I hope, 386 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: I would hope so that That's why, again we didn't 387 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: ask for a pardon. We didn't ask let him out today. 388 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: We said let him earn it, let him still feel 389 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: the weight of of what he has done, but give 390 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: him that light at the end of the tunnel, because 391 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, there is no one in the Arkansas Department 392 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: of Correction. Even with the there's just not a victim 393 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: like him there, and there's not someone who who could 394 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: be an advocate for victims like him were he to 395 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: be released. So yep, well, all right, Michael, is there 396 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: anything else you wanted to get into with this or 397 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: any other ways people might be able to help? Check 398 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: out the website again, post on social media. Um. Uh. 399 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: The one thing I think we didn't focus on here 400 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: is Heath himself. Um. Heath is a deeply spiritual individual. 401 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: He's someone who lives with this on his conscious almost 402 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: every moment of the day. This is not not someone 403 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: who you know, feels he's skated by by avoiding the 404 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: death penalty. Um. This is someone who has had to 405 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: learn about trauma, mostly on his own, because with those 406 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: life sentences, he is ineligible for so many of the 407 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: programs of the scant programs and resources that we have 408 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: in the Department of Correction because they don't give it 409 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: to people who don't have parole dates. So he's had 410 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: to do a lot of this on his own. He's 411 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: come a remarkable way. He's still someone that needs um 412 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: probably extensive treatment and therapy to deal with his own 413 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: trauma as well as to deal with the effects of 414 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: what he did on himself. Um. But he's a remarkable individual. 415 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: He's a great self advocate. I wish you could speak 416 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: with him as well. Um. He's someone I'm proud to represent. 417 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: Not just that I do because I get paid. Um, 418 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: this is why I got into the practice of law. 419 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: Is this type of case. Um, he is not innocent, 420 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: but he is not. Uh, he should not be bearing 421 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: the full weight of what occurred. While you know, Jack 422 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: is serving a life sentence. I think he should have 423 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: one or two or three more for his role in this. 424 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: I mean heats youth and heats brain damage. Because of that, 425 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: sexual abuse should have and now should be considered. And 426 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: we just hope the governor will Yeah, yeah, hopefully so. 427 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: And again if you want to learn more, there's Heath 428 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: stocks dot info. Um. There's a lot of good about 429 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: Jack Walls on there as well. UM, and you can 430 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: there's a link to make a donation to Heath's defense. Um. 431 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: All right, well, Michael, thank you so much for coming 432 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: on today. UM, and I hope you have a good 433 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: rest of your week. Now that's well, it could happen. 434 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 435 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 436 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: Media dot com, or check us out on the I 437 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, 438 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: you can find sources for It could Happen here, updated 439 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: monthly at coolsone me to dot com slash sources. Thanks 440 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: for listening.