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Speaker 1: Trust me?

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Speaker 2: Do you trust me?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: Ever?

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Speaker 2: Lead you as trust? This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 3: Welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 3: and manipulation from two seekers who've actually experienced it. I

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Speaker 3: am Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 1: Yes you are. And I am Megan Eliza Bath, Yes

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Speaker 1: you are.

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Speaker 3: And this week we are joined by Matthew Ramsky, author

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Speaker 3: and host of the Conspiratuality podcast. This is a crossover

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Speaker 3: that's been a long time coming. In Part one today,

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Speaker 3: he's going to talk to us about his own personal

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Speaker 3: experiences with gurus and cultic dynamics and what led him

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Speaker 3: to the topic of cults and conspiracies. He'll tell us

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Speaker 3: about his own religious upbringing, the mysterious seizures he had

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Speaker 3: that led to his fascination with spirituality, and what drew

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Speaker 3: him to his own first charismatic guru, Michael Roach.

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Speaker 1: That's right. He'll explain what an average day was like

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Speaker 1: following Roach for three high demands, traveling with him and

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Speaker 1: attending his classes with the physical manifestations of Matthew's spiritual

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Speaker 1: experiences were like In both that group and the next one,

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Speaker 1: he joined and what led to his disillusionment with the

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Speaker 1: first group.

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Speaker 3: And next week he will tell us how he cult

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Speaker 3: hopped pattern CC's emerging in the world of cults and

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Speaker 3: conspiracies and what Marx has to do with any of it.

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Speaker 1: Stay tuned next week.

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Speaker 3: Oh, in the meantime, Megan, can you tell me your

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Speaker 3: cultiest thing this week?

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Speaker 1: I absolutely can. One of the things that Matthew said

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Speaker 1: in this interview that really struck me was that Michael,

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Speaker 1: the person he followed, went to Harvard and how much

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Speaker 1: Ivy League schools can be culty in ane of themselves,

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Speaker 1: and how it's affected my own life. For example, my

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Speaker 1: papa went to an Ivy League school and that primed

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Speaker 1: me to think that he had a better sense of

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Speaker 1: gut instinct, which obviously and Ivy League school is not

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Speaker 1: going to give you a gut instinct be you can

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Speaker 1: be given a lot of great information. But you know,

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Speaker 1: my dad was also raised in this group, so it's

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Speaker 1: not as if being an Ivy League school graduate made

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Speaker 1: him like, oh cool, I'm no longer susceptible to course

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Speaker 1: of control.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, there are people with all kinds of beliefs

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Speaker 3: who have really excellent education. Yes, it doesn't preclude you

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Speaker 3: from like being able to participate in a less mainstream

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Speaker 3: belief for religion totally.

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Speaker 1: Like geniuses can join cults crazy, I know, and start them,

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Speaker 1: and start them. It turns out. It turns out. So

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Speaker 1: there's this story that happened in twenty twenty four at

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Speaker 1: the University of Iowa that's going viral the last couple months.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure how viral it is this week, but

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Speaker 1: it's of a hazing incident at the University of Iowa

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Speaker 1: where the police cameras captured fifty six male pledges blindfolded

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Speaker 1: in a basement. And I think I sent you the video.

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Speaker 1: I don't if you watched it yet. It looks like

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Speaker 1: a horror movie, right, Oh my god. And the officers

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Speaker 1: are like, hello, what's happening. They're not answering, and it's

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Speaker 1: just like whoa scary. It made me think about how

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Speaker 1: the University of Iowa obviously is a very prestigious school.

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Speaker 1: It has the great writing workshop, but the fraternity culture

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Speaker 1: still isn't the same as those of like let's say

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Speaker 1: the Yale Skull and Bones, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: And these are fraternities that leaders of our country are

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Speaker 1: joining where they're learning to be humiliated, where they're learning

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Speaker 1: to humiliate others, where they're willing to be in very

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Speaker 1: abusive environments, and willing might not even be the word,

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Speaker 1: where they're coerced, and to this level of masochism being normal,

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Speaker 1: And it just seems like a training ground for psychopaths

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Speaker 1: to run our country, you know. And it's very cult

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Speaker 1: syt the whole thing. And yes, I want like people

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Speaker 1: to have fun and their sororities and their fraternities and

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Speaker 1: bop around if it's a healthy space. And maybe you know,

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Speaker 1: you like have to stay up all night one night,

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Speaker 1: like eat too much food, eat too much food. But

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Speaker 1: my girlfriends who did go to schools, I genuinely don't

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Speaker 1: have a single guy. Oh no, that's not true. But

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Speaker 1: most of my girlfriends were the ones who went diving schools,

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Speaker 1: not my guy friends. But like their sorority experiences were

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Speaker 1: so intense, where like they had to get naked and

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Speaker 1: the girls and the grade above would circle all the

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Speaker 1: parts of their bodies that they needed to lose weight on.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, horrible. But I knew my my friends

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Speaker 1: at k State University, we're not doing that. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know just knobs are. So basically you're.

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Speaker 3: Saying that at Ivy League schools, these kind of extreme

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Speaker 3: frats and sororities can be breeding grounds for people to

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Speaker 3: accept bad behaviors or commit bad behaviors.

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Speaker 1: And my point is twofold and that that is true.

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Speaker 1: And then secondly, there's just so much blind faith in

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Speaker 1: the people who have gone to these schools that they

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Speaker 1: have some special knowledge or that you know, that they

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Speaker 1: are somehow more important. And for sure, yeah, again, they're

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Speaker 1: very smart people. They might have had access to great

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Speaker 1: teachers and literature, but at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: they are just human beings, and I think it's important

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Speaker 1: that we remember that.

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Speaker 3: I agree as somebody who has absolutely been tricked by

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Speaker 3: some Ivy League credentials before, only to discover that those

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Speaker 3: people were either like the worst or those just like

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Speaker 3: individuals I'm referring to, or just like that credential doesn't

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Speaker 3: inherently make them smarter than all of these other people

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Speaker 3: I know, or than me, you know what I mean. Like,

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Speaker 3: I definitely have fallen prey to that, and I feel

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Speaker 3: that for sure. But at the same time, you know,

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Speaker 3: depending on the field, you do want someone with genuine credentials,

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Speaker 3: So it's.

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Speaker 1: So hard totally. And if you're like, I went to

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Speaker 1: an Ivy League school, fuck you, No, that's so cool.

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Speaker 1: I'm so like, that's so impressive and good for you.

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Speaker 3: I have a second date with a Harvard guy tomorrow,

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Speaker 3: so perfect.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know, like' I'm not being I'm not being

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Speaker 1: a hater on it. I just have noticed it's it's

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Speaker 1: notable as my cultiest thing of the week after talking

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Speaker 1: to Matthew and one of the things being Harvard that

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Speaker 1: struck him about Michael word word to that word too

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Speaker 1: that I hope your day goes well, what's your cultiest

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Speaker 1: thing of the week. I guess I'm just.

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Speaker 3: Talking about dating today because I was making connections based

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Speaker 3: actually partially on this interview as well and connecting them

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Speaker 3: to my dating life. So in this interview, Matthew is

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Speaker 3: talking about disorganized attachment style and the concept of like

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Speaker 3: connecting this to how we relate to cult eaters, and

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Speaker 3: you kind of likened it to trauma bonding, which is

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Speaker 3: that intermittent reinforcement that happens when someone is both the

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Speaker 3: source of pain and the source of comfort and it's

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Speaker 3: unpredictable and we don't know when we're going to get

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Speaker 3: the good part and when we're going to get the

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Speaker 3: bad part. And I hadn't really connected all of those

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Speaker 3: three concepts into different versions of the same thing. But

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Speaker 3: I was dating someone recently and I had a similar

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Speaker 3: experience that I talked about like maybe a year ago,

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Speaker 3: like right after my breakup. But this is like a

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Speaker 3: different one where I was getting that intermittent reinforcement from

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Speaker 3: someone where like it's like really strong and then like

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Speaker 3: there's a little withdrawal, and then there's there back, and

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Speaker 3: then there's withdrawal, and then I noticed in myself that

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Speaker 3: it created a feeling of addiction that is not my

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Speaker 3: typical style of relating.

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Speaker 1: I would sit on myself.

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Speaker 3: Generally like pretty stable and secure and not running anxious

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Speaker 3: unless somebody is doing something to produce that feeling in me.

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Speaker 3: And I guess it just made me think about, well,

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Speaker 3: one like, these responses are biological if somebody is there

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Speaker 3: and then they're not, and you don't know when they're

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Speaker 3: going to be there, and you don't know when they're

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Speaker 3: not going to be there, or you don't know when

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Speaker 3: you're going to get the nice guru or the mean guru.

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Speaker 3: Like it's actually not reflective of anything wrong with us

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Speaker 3: that we that that would make us then desperate and

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Speaker 3: hungry for the good side of them, because that's literally

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Speaker 3: what mice do when the food comes out in an

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Speaker 3: unpredictable way. They sit there and they wait for it

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Speaker 3: to come out because they don't know when it's going

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Speaker 3: to come out, and they're they become addicted to it.

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Speaker 3: It's the same thing that happens to us, both in

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Speaker 3: relationships where the partner is inconsistent and also in culd

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Speaker 3: dict dynamics where we don't know if they're going to

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Speaker 3: give us love today or if they're going to give

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Speaker 3: us punishment today.

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Speaker 1: There's a statistic that I'm gonna botch unless you want

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Speaker 1: me to look it up. Botch it. But it's botch it, babe,

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Speaker 1: let's just botch it. It's from that really great book

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Speaker 1: Run Like How, where she talks about how a bond

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Speaker 1: like that that's not just consistent, that is a trauma

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Speaker 1: bond makes it. They've done research where it's like you're

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Speaker 1: forty six percent more likely to be addicted to it,

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Speaker 1: right right, right, Oh, yes, we have talked about this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, even if that's not the exact number, the general

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Speaker 3: idea is correct.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you. So you know it's worth

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Speaker 1: being aware of because everybody in society is like, in

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Speaker 1: a very laughy way, like ha ha ha, I like

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Speaker 1: him because he doesn't like me, or like any like

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's like hah, it's like oh no, Like we

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Speaker 1: are biologically horrifically so designed to respond the best to

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Speaker 1: that and that we're going to give it our most

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Speaker 1: attention and our most energy. And uh, I don't know

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Speaker 1: why that is, probably because a million years ago, the

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Speaker 1: most unpredictable person was like who you needed to please

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Speaker 1: or they would kill you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it is really like why why would we

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Speaker 3: be programmed that way?

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Speaker 1: But it's true. Yeah, I mean I think it's just.

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Speaker 3: Like seeking secure attachment. Secure attachment meant a secure place

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Speaker 3: in the world, which meant safety, right, And so if

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Speaker 3: we don't know if that attachment is secure, then it

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Speaker 3: makes sense that we would be like seeking to secure it.

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Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, that's my non professional assessment. And if

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Speaker 1: somebody's just giving you one hundred percent not secure, it's

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Speaker 1: like die you leave.

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Speaker 3: Right, But if there's that hope being dangled, like I'll

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Speaker 3: get the good one, I'll get the good I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: get on the good side eventually, you know, if I

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Speaker 3: do just the right thing, or if I withdrawing off

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Speaker 3: or whatever the fuck. And it makes me think about

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Speaker 3: what we've talked about a bunch, which is this idea that,

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Speaker 3: like us knowing that someone is exhibiting narcissistic tendencies or whatever,

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Speaker 3: like antisocial tendencies, we sometimes have the illusion that knowing

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Speaker 3: it means we're not going to be susceptible to it.

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Speaker 3: But of course the biology is the biology, and what

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Speaker 3: happens in our brain happens regardless of whether we're aware

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Speaker 3: of it, and that addiction can be formed, and so.

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Speaker 1: The only thing you can do is cut it off.

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Speaker 1: It's so freaking annoying when you have a friend who's like,

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Speaker 1: I know, like my axe is terrible and whatever, but

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Speaker 1: like I get it now, I'm just going to sleep

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Speaker 1: with him and like be the one to leave him,

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Speaker 1: and you're like bye forever now. Yeah, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: just like silly, silly, silly, silliest stuff.

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Speaker 3: But in your brain it's like I need I need it,

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Speaker 3: you know. Like it's so it's so difficult to truly

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Speaker 3: detach and truly do no contact, like it's very difficult. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: that's my that's my basic bitch. Dating is like a

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Speaker 3: cult point of the day.

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Speaker 1: Well, I love it.

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Speaker 3: Also, I don't want to forget to mention that the

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Speaker 3: Netflix series with the same name as this podcast, Trust Me,

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Speaker 3: is out about my mom's experience going undercover to take

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Speaker 3: down a false prophet. So if you haven't watched it yet,

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Speaker 3: go ahead and check it out. It's called trust Me

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Speaker 3: a False Prophet.

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Speaker 1: I've already started watching the show actually, and it is

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Speaker 1: so well done. And Lola, your song that they play

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Speaker 1: at the beginning is so moving, it's so perfect, And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can't wait for people to enjoy the show.

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Speaker 3: All right, Matthew Remsky, let's do it. Welcome Matthew Remsky

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Speaker 3: to Trust Me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

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Speaker 3: I feel like this is a crossover moment that people

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Speaker 3: have been asking about for a long time. Conspiratuality and

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Speaker 3: trust Me come up in the same conversations.

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Speaker 1: A lot, and look, we're doing it. We're here right,

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Speaker 1: So exciting.

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Speaker 3: So you are an expert on colds, both in your

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Speaker 3: podcast as well as books you've written but I would

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Speaker 3: love for us to start with your own personal experiences.

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Speaker 3: So it all originated with some seizures that you had,

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Speaker 3: is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, that's a really deep cut because

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure where you came across that, but that

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Speaker 2: is a part of my life for sure. You do

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Speaker 2: your research clearly. Yeah, I mean, I think that something

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Speaker 2: starts with seizures. For me, I can get to that,

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Speaker 2: but I think that also I was always religiously or

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Speaker 2: spiritually fascinated and sensitive and maybe even obsessed and like

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Speaker 2: Christianity or Yeah, I was brought up Catholic, and my

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Speaker 2: first sort of real contact with that in a sort

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Speaker 2: of I don't know, like a way that has stayed

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Speaker 2: with me and that's reawakened or that hasn't really left

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Speaker 2: came through my parents being involved with a community here

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Speaker 2: in Toronto called the Cardinal Newman Center, which was kind

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Speaker 2: of like the most leftist, radical Catholic parish in Canada

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Speaker 2: during the nineteen seventies. It was pretty much the only

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Speaker 2: place where, you know, liberation theology was being taught. But

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Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about that when I was six

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Speaker 2: years old. What I could feel was that the place

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Speaker 2: was just filled with some kind of hope and warmth

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Speaker 2: and joy. And I remember particularly that the communion bread

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Speaker 2: was like black Russian rye bread that was partially leavened,

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Speaker 2: but it came from the bakery down the street and

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Speaker 2: you could buy it, you know, during the week, but

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Speaker 2: when it was in the hands of the priest who

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Speaker 2: is or the nun who is sort of handing it

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Speaker 2: to you, that it just felt like it felt like communion.

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Speaker 2: It felt like a meal, right, And I just had

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Speaker 2: all of these incredibly warm feelings from this place. And

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Speaker 2: then I had this other experience, which was that my

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Speaker 2: parents wanted me to have like a musical experience or

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Speaker 2: some kind of education with musical discipline. And there was

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Speaker 2: a very conservative Catholic church parish community called Saint Michael's

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Speaker 2: Choir School that you could go to that was almost,

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Speaker 2: you know, like a throwback to a pre Vatican too,

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Speaker 2: you know, nineteen fifties kind of place with that politics

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Speaker 2: and esthetics. And it was there that I really became

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Speaker 2: a little bit, i suppose, disillusioned with what Max Weber

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Speaker 2: calls the rutinization of charisma. That whatever was like really

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Speaker 2: inspiring or really hopeful about a kind of spiritual or

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Speaker 2: religious message had been flattened out into a kind of

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Speaker 2: institutional performance. And I remember this moment when I was

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Speaker 2: eight years old or so, where I realized that I'm

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Speaker 2: looking at an icon of Mary in Saint Michael's Cathedral,

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Speaker 2: and it finally occurs to me that that's not her,

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Speaker 2: that that actually this is made of plaster. And not

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Speaker 2: only is it made of plaster, but I can tell

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Speaker 2: that it's been painted, and I can tell that the

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Speaker 2: painting actually isn't very good, and I can also see

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Speaker 2: how it's been chipped. And I realized that, oh, somebody

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Speaker 2: did this, like another person like me, put a kind

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Speaker 2: of effort into this, and the same way that I

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Speaker 2: would put effort into like a drawing of a dinosaur

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Speaker 2: in you know, class or something like that. And there

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Speaker 2: was something about that that I think shrank my and

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Speaker 2: sharpened my religious experience down to the material. Like it

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Speaker 2: was disillusioning in the sense that, like, I didn't feel

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Speaker 2: the warmth that I had felt previously, But I also

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Speaker 2: realized that like religious and spiritual activity is something that

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Speaker 2: people just do, and they might be making it up,

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Speaker 2: they might be they're doing their best at something and

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Speaker 2: they're doing their best with the material reels they have

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Speaker 2: and the skills that they have, and that's not really

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Speaker 2: different from the skills that I have. And so the

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Speaker 2: specialness of whoever Mary was was kind of like dissolved

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Speaker 2: into the mystery of whoever that plaster painter was. Interesting.

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Speaker 1: This was when you were six years old? Is that

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Speaker 1: what you said?

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Speaker 2: Well, six was the really warm experience. About eight was

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Speaker 2: like or eight maybe nine was when I'm standing there

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Speaker 2: in the cathedral going, wow, this is kind of fake.

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Speaker 2: What's going on here?

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Speaker 1: That's such a profound revelation for an eight year old.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm odd, and I think that what happens later,

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Speaker 2: because you asked about seizures is that, you know, a

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Speaker 2: period of deep like personal stress, alienation from family, not

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Speaker 2: knowing what I was going to do with my career.

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Speaker 2: I did come to a point, and this was you know,

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Speaker 2: not involving any kind of substance use or you know,

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Speaker 2: probably not enough sleep for sure. But I started to

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Speaker 2: have a period of Grandma seizures that were really I

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Speaker 2: mean they turned out to be idiopathic because when I

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Speaker 2: actually went for the neurological tests finally they couldn't find

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Speaker 2: any abnormalities.

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Speaker 1: Can you define idiopathic?

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Speaker 2: There was no cause found, Okay, Yeah, So what it

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Speaker 2: was was I would wake up in my apartment with

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Speaker 2: my furniture tipped over on the floor and the books

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Speaker 2: all on the floor, and I wouldn't really have a

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Speaker 2: memory of what had happened. Now, I think how that

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Speaker 2: connects to whatever religious sensitivity I have is that there's

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Speaker 2: a very odd form of epileptic sort of diagnosis called

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Speaker 2: Geshwin's syndrome, which I was never formally diagnosed with, but

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Speaker 2: it's characterized by you know, people who have frontotemporal epilepsy

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Speaker 2: and go through a series of seizures might find themselves

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Speaker 2: absolutely obsessed with religion, and not necessarily in a devotional sense,

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Speaker 2: but also in a kind of you know, neurodivergent info dumping.

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Speaker 2: I want to look at this thing from all angles

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Speaker 2: and try to figure out exactly how it works. And

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Speaker 2: I think I identify very strongly with that. And also

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Speaker 2: Gushwin syndrome is associated with hypergrafia, which is you basically

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Speaker 2: can't stop writing now. And I'm not the person who

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Speaker 2: is filling up their walls and their ceilings with tiny text,

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Speaker 2: which you know can happen, but I think I write

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Speaker 2: an inordinate amount, and so those are those are sort

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Speaker 2: of interesting, you know, neurological features about me that you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't really have an answer for. I haven't had

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Speaker 2: seizures a long time, but the fascination with relig and

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Speaker 2: certainly the obsessive writing have continued.

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Speaker 1: Well, the human brain is so interesting because we did

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Speaker 1: an episode with Anne, we called her Anne, who experienced

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Speaker 1: a psychosis, which is very different than a seizure, but

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Speaker 1: she suddenly became obsessed with spirituality, writing, writing all day long,

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Speaker 1: and it's like there's almost this a little wire in

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Speaker 1: our brain that can be tripped, and it's it's very

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Speaker 1: fascinating to me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I just was thinking about our very old episode.

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Speaker 3: This is a very early episode of the show, so

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Speaker 3: it's probably really poorly edited because I was editing it myself,

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Speaker 3: but it was you've all lower.

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Speaker 1: Do you know who he is?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, Oh my gosh, how is he doing? I

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Speaker 2: haven't seen or heard from him in a long time.

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Speaker 1: Well, we have either it's been a few years.

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Speaker 3: But for those who don't know and want to check

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Speaker 3: out the episode, it's he researches temporal lobe epilepsy and

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Speaker 3: talks about hyper religiosity and how they're connected.

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Speaker 1: It's very very interesting.

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Speaker 3: And we were kind of hypothesizing on that episode, like

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Speaker 3: how how many cult leaders are not necessarily like maliciously

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Speaker 3: inventing some of these things, but are literally just experiencing

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Speaker 3: hyper religiosity from the seizures of this kind. So from

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Speaker 3: that point on you kind of sort of intensified your

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Speaker 3: interest in spirituality.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think really the context was a kind

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Speaker 2: of economic and political despair, right, Like it's not just

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Speaker 2: that I was fascinated with religion, but that that seemed

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Speaker 2: to be the vital and open doorway for any kind

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Speaker 2: of sensible living or trying to be productive or to

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Speaker 2: make something of myself in this kind of accelerating neoliberalism.

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Speaker 2: Where As I said, I just was not sure in

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Speaker 2: the mid nineteen nineties what I was going to do.

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Speaker 2: Like I was writing novels and they were being published.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't making any money doing that. They were very

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Speaker 2: well acclaimed, but it's like I was just at a loss.

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Speaker 2: And I also felt that there wasn't really any kind

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Speaker 2: of strong social and political movements on the go that

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Speaker 2: were available to provide any kind of like structure for

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Speaker 2: me to have communal life. And so I ended up

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Speaker 2: finding those things in various religious groups.

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Speaker 1: What was the first one you found? The first religious group?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was living in Vermont and my partner at

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Speaker 2: the time had been very interested in Buddhism and contact

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Speaker 2: with that had come through Shambala Buddhism, and you know,

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Speaker 2: she had spent a number of times in the main

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Speaker 2: center there in Boulder, Colorado, and through her we had

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Speaker 2: Buddhist friends in this little well, it's the capital town

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Speaker 2: of Montpellier, and one of our friends, Marie gord Has

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Speaker 2: actually who went on to run for Vermont State Senate,

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Speaker 2: and I think, you know, took a similar trajectory to mine. Actually,

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Speaker 2: she phoned me up one day and she said, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's this guy coming to town and he's a pretty

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Speaker 2: you know, charismatic Buddhist teacher, and I think you might

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Speaker 2: really enjoy what he has to say. His name is

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Speaker 2: Michael Roach, and his group was the first that I

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Speaker 2: was kind of drawn into, but in a very kind

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Speaker 2: of immediate, I would say, almost catastrophic way. I think

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Speaker 2: that you know, to extend this kind of like mental

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Speaker 2: health narrative that I'm telling I was probably clinically depressed

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Speaker 2: at the time. And you know, again undiagnosed. It was

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Speaker 2: not in my sort of social culture or my family

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Speaker 2: culture to seek out psychotherapy or you know, really try

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Speaker 2: to figure out how to take care of myself in

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Speaker 2: any way. I was quite sort of anti social in

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Speaker 2: many respects. And yeah, Mari said you should come to

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Speaker 2: this meeting. And I went to the meeting and the

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Speaker 2: sort of classic Is It a Holy Hell in which

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Speaker 2: with Harvey Kaitel and What's who Is? Who's the Titanic

421
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Speaker 2: actor at Kate Winslet where she goes to the Asra

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Speaker 2: and she has the moment in which she feels that,

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Speaker 2: you know, her forehead is opening up because the guru

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Speaker 2: is staring directly at her, and she falls down a

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Speaker 2: rabbit hole. I had something similar to that sensation, which

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Speaker 2: I think emerges out of It emerges out of like

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Speaker 2: a just an intersection of stresses, really and somebody saying

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Speaker 2: something that is both true and deceptive at the same time.

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Speaker 2: And Michael Roach seemed to look at me and say,

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Speaker 2: do you know you're dying? And I don't think you're

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Speaker 2: doing anything about it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And well, Michael Roach my God, tell me what

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Speaker 1: to do about the city.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was a hook, yea, yeah, And I

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Speaker 2: think he was in town for a couple of days

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Speaker 2: and within you know, by day three or something like that,

437
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 2: I had a private meeting and you know, I said,

438
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 2: I would like to learn more about this Buddhist lineage

439
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: that you know about and that you've learned, and he he,

440
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: and he looked at me, and to whose credit he said,

441
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 2: you know, just so you know, this will be a

442
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: struggle and there will be a lot of heartache. And

443
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: I was like, okay. And he had this way of

444
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: being sort of partially transparent about whatever was actually going

445
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: on in the group or in your relationship with him.

446
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 2: And yeah, that was that was three years of high

447
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 2: demand life that initiated.

448
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: Then were you living close to him or.

449
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,479
Speaker 2: Well it involved at one point there was a lot

450
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 2: of traveling with his inner circle for one thing. But

451
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 2: then at one point there was you know, we're going

452
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 2: to move to New York City and stay in a

453
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: fellow students' apartment spare room for six eight months or

454
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: something like that, and you know, go to class, go

455
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 2: to meetings every day, learn as much as we can.

456
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: And there was kind of like a pseudo university thing

457
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 2: that was part of the program. Like he said that

458
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 2: he wanted to institute the Tibetan monastic educational system in

459
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 2: American form. You know, here are the courses that you

460
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 2: have to go through. Here the study guides, here's all

461
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: the homework, here the quizzes that you have to take.

462
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 2: You know, we're going to give you oral exams. So

463
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: it was sort of semi formal. And you know, he'd

464
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: been to Harvard, you know, he'd gotten i think a

465
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 2: master's degree in something, so he had an academic meant

466
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 2: to him. And I think also he seemed to be

467
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: able to recite dozens of shlocos at a time of

468
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: medieval Tibetan scripture in a way that I found very impressive.

469
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 2: But of course I couldn't fact check. So there were

470
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: these marks of credibility to him that I found very

471
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: kind of reassuring. But I think, what, if I'm really honest,

472
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 2: what really attracted me to him is that this was

473
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: a guy who was white and whose life I could

474
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 2: kind of mirror in the sense that maybe I too

475
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: could completely abandon and transcend my Canadian American identity and

476
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: just becomes something completely else, because there was something about

477
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 2: being who I was that just was not right. It

478
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: wasn't working.

479
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, so to this point, you kind of externalize

480
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: Enlightenment and things of that nature and been like that

481
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: can't happen to me, but Michael's like it happened to me,

482
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: and your similar.

483
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: Well, I don't even know that, like enlightenment was a

484
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: fixation of mind so much as Wow, it must feel

485
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: really good to not be the person you were, right

486
00:28:52,000 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 2: right to leave this broken, confused, transgressive, you know, kind

487
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: of hypercritical identity behind and to feel that you know,

488
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: one is participating in something very meaningful.

489
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 3: This is not an important detail, but I like to

490
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 3: like look up images of these gurus. Yeah, and very

491
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 3: odd face this man. It's but like compelling, like interesting.

492
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 3: It's not dissimilar to the Skulet man we talked about

493
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 3: in a recent episode. I can't remember which leader that was,

494
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: but feels like he would be in I'm trying to

495
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 3: think of a director who had cast him, and I

496
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 3: can't a Coen Brothers movie or something like very distinct

497
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 3: looking yep, yeah, I agree, Like what was.

498
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: His overall demeanor? Yeah, like what was the vibe? Yeah,

499
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: what's his vibes.

500
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: I would say that there was a couple of key

501
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: for me attractive or at least magnetic features, and one

502
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: was that he was, like me, hair trigger, emotionally incontinent,

503
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: so he might, in the midst of any prayer, any supplication,

504
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: any mantra, burst into tears, wow over the and I

505
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: think it was earnest. Yeah, And I found that to

506
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: be extraordinary, and I think I still do, and I

507
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: think it's a character, as you know, it's a part

508
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,719
Speaker 2: of him that I appreciate. And then there was another

509
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: thing that was a lot more complicated and eventually twisted,

510
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: and that was that he was ostensibly a celibate monk,

511
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: and he also had these personal assistance or attendance around him.

512
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: There is usually three, and the main one her name

513
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: is Christy McNally, and so there's a whole story that

514
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: goes on after I leave about her and what happens

515
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 2: with her partner. But the notion that they were also

516
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: sort of creating some kind of spiritual marriage or relationship

517
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: was I did not have enough feminism on board at

518
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: the time to just sort of see the basics of like,

519
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: you are twice as old as this woman, and she

520
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: is basically running your show day and night, waiting on

521
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 2: your hand and foot. But what mitigated that was that

522
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 2: the practice that they were doing together, which we weren't

523
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: allowed to know that much about because it was secret

524
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: and tantric, involved a certain amount of like gender queer performance.

525
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: So the dedication in that form of tantra from that

526
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: lineage of Tibetan Buddhism was towards a deity called Vajor Yughini.

527
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: And so if you looked at pictures Lola and you

528
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: saw him with very long hair, that's in his phase.

529
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: And he might be wearing jewelry, that's in his phase

530
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: in which he's literally dressing up and imagining himself as

531
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: a sixteen year old female deity. Woman deity.

532
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, he was.

533
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: Not only a woman, a young woman, but a young

534
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: woman who is nude, a young woman who is sexually aroused,

535
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: a young woman who is tasting the bliss of existence

536
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: while trampling on the enemies of ego and so on.

537
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 2: So that was all like, I think that was sufficiently

538
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: like in a Junian sense. It was rich enough for

539
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: me to kind of believe that there was something going

540
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: on here that was very interesting and kind of unique,

541
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: and it allowed me to sort of miss the fact

542
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: that these are the very same points of interest that

543
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: he's actually employing or you know, employing is maybe not

544
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: the word, but they wind up really bamboozling people with

545
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: regard to what they're doing for him and what the

546
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: power imbalances are. So there's the very imbalanced, power imbalanced

547
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: and potentially abusive sexual relationships going on. But then there's

548
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: also the sort of constant labor that has to be

549
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 2: done to fulfill every single sort of instinct and whim

550
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: that he has to produce these projects that are about nothing.

551
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: They do nothing, and it's like the Seinfeld of spirituality

552
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: or something.

553
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: It's well, I mean I might make that joke, but

554
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 2: I mean, what's deceptive about it is that, and I

555
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: think this is true for many charismatic leaders, is that

556
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 2: it really depends on the capacity to make the follower

557
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: really believe that something's about to come of something right

558
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: right right, And you know, in a way, it takes

559
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,719
Speaker 2: all of your sort of capitalistic training around you know,

560
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: what are we going to make happen? And then it

561
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: promises that it will be finished.

562
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 3: At a certain way right right, and then you'll be happy,

563
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 3: and then you'll be happy. Right.

564
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: I want to know what a day in your life

565
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: looked like, and I want to know what was promised

566
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: for this ending. If it's not enlightenment, what were you

567
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: all going for?

568
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 2: Oh well, definitely the overt promise was enlightenment. I don't

569
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 2: really believe that I had a firm belief in the

570
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 2: metaphysics of that, Like that wasn't really part of why

571
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: I was engaged. I think that it was much more

572
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 2: the sort of community stabilization or apparently you know what

573
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 2: that provided. The day was organized around perpetual kind of

574
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: taking inventory of yourself and measuring your actions against this

575
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: long list of vows that you had taken for various

576
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: levels of it attainment. There was a lot of work

577
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: in trying to disseminate and proselytize the actual materials of

578
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 2: the organization, and you know, then you sort of made

579
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 2: money on the side however you could so. And then

580
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, if you were in

581
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: a sort of teaching season, then you know, you'd show

582
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: up for the seven o'clock class, and he would arrive

583
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 2: an hour late, and you know you'd be there till

584
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 2: twelve o'clock. And then you'd have to get up at

585
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 2: five in the morning to do the meditation again. So

586
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: it was extraordinarily compressed and centralized and constellated around him

587
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 2: and his particular needs. And yeah, he created a lot

588
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: of make work projects for people as well, partly because

589
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 2: he wanted to expand his markets as much as he could.

590
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 2: And then, you know, so he would if somebody came

591
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: in and they have business experience, he would help them

592
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 2: set up a you know, the enlightened Business Institute so

593
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 2: that they could you know, teach Buddhism to wealthy people

594
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 2: in Hong Kong or whatever. If somebody came from Russia

595
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 2: and they had ties to oligarchs, then that was great too.

596
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: He would do a special program for them. It was

597
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 2: like he was extremely extremely opportunistic and just completely on

598
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 2: his own, like with no institutional guardrails, no you know, support,

599
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: no feedback. There was there was nobody there to tell

600
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 2: Michael Roach, hey do you want to cut that bit

601
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 2: of bullshit out? Do you want to really try to

602
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 2: justify And that's the thing is that is that it's

603
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 2: it's very easy with with charismatic leader who doesn't get

604
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: feedback and who builds their sort of identity not only

605
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: a relationship to their followers, but also in isolation from

606
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 2: anybody who would sort of check them. That's that's pretty standard.

607
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: So okay, I mean to just bring that back down

608
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: to earth for a lists. I think it's like celebrities,

609
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 1: you know, who could get surrounded by yes men and

610
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: suddenly you're like, what happened to blink?

611
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 3: Right? I was curious to hear a bit about some

612
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 3: of the heightened spiritual experiences that you had in this

613
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 3: group and also in the next one.

614
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: But start with this one a little bit.

615
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, we can move on to the next one shortly,

616
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: but that involved like literal physical sensations and movement, and

617
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 3: can you talk about what those were and what you

618
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 3: attribute them to.

619
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: So in the first group that I was in, there

620
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,959
Speaker 2: would be people who sat close to Michael Roach who

621
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 2: and one of them was Ian Thorson, who went on

622
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: to actually die because I would say, of neglect, because

623
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 2: there was a real administrative failure in terms of whether

624
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: he was provided care during a retreat. And there are

625
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 2: many people who assign some of that blame to Michael Roach.

626
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: But there was a number of people in the inner

627
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 2: circle who would sit around Michael Roach in meditation, and

628
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 2: they would jolt and shiver and buck their heads and

629
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: sometimes snort. Sometimes they would cough in odd ways. Sometimes

630
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: they would yell out almost like how to know, like

631
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: cowboy yodels or something like that. It sounds funny, and

632
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 2: that did not happen to me, But I could feel

633
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 2: that as I sat in these sort of planned and

634
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 2: timed meditations as well, and it was happening in front

635
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: of me, I could feel there was some kind of

636
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: you know, social somatic contagion that could be activated, like

637
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 2: I could feel trembling myself. Like, I don't think that

638
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 2: vers up the spine are that uncommon for people who

639
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 2: are either you know, contemplating difficult things or you know,

640
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: experiencing feelings of beauty. My understanding is that that's not uncommon,

641
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 2: and I think these are sort of accelerated or intensified

642
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: bits of that. But I think there's another component as well.

643
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 2: And I'm just saying this also not as a neurologist,

644
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 2: so I don't know what the mechanisms are. I think

645
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: that it's in the next group that I had a

646
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: full experience and almost daily experience of you know what

647
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: I've sometimes called Kundalini jitterbug, which is a spontaneous and

648
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 2: sometimes unstoppable until you're actually physically exhausted series of convulsions,

649
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 2: and usually it's vertically oriented. There's there's a lot having

650
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 2: to do with like flexion and extension of the spine rapidly,

651
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 2: and that seems to be correlated with what people will

652
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 2: say about, oh, the energetic body has these lines and

653
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: stuff like that.

654
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I can't relate with you more. I

655
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: got really into Kundalini. I can't explain some of the

656
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: things that happened, but I will say one time I

657
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: went to the to a monastery in France to meditate

658
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: for two weeks. And you've never mentioned this one. No, no,

659
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: I have, but we haven't.

660
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: We haven't.

661
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: We haven't built too deep into it. But there was

662
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: one day that nobody came to the meditation class besides me,

663
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: and it was me and friends something to the meditation teacher,

664
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: and we're sitting there for like two hours and I

665
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: almost was like orgasmic feeling. And I was and that's

666
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 1: not like a state that comes easily to me. It

667
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: takes a word. I was just like, what the fuck

668
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: is happening? Like I don't know if it's just sitting

669
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: with yourself connecting to another person so deeply, is automatically

670
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 1: enlivening your body in a certain way, I don't know.

671
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: But well, there's well, there's expectation, there's uncertainty. I think

672
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 2: there can be like physical feelings of compression if you're

673
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: if you are sitting for too long. I don't believe

674
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 2: that these things are disconnected from sort of a jolt

675
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 2: you might have as you're beginning to fall asleep, either right,

676
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: or some kind of reaction to sleep paralysis. But it's

677
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: interesting that you mentioned that particular sort of context too,

678
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: because I think that the sensations can be almost they

679
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: can be celebratory orgasmic, as you say, but they can

680
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 2: also be regressive or transgressive in the sense that it

681
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 2: might feel like you're having a bit of a tantrum,

682
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: or that there's a there's a way in which some

683
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: kind of emotional repression is finally being untapped. And those

684
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 2: are all very sort of interesting sensations. But I think

685
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: the explanation that I came upon that resonated most clearly

686
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 2: with me was in reading and talking with Alexandra Stein

687
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 2: about her book Terror Love and brainwashing, in which she

688
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: describes at peak moments of cult induced disorganized attachment, in

689
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: which you have been in a prolonged state of both

690
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 2: being fascinated with and repelled by your caregiver or your guru.

691
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: You are in love with this person, but you're also

692
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 2: terrified of them. They're completely inconstant, but you're bound with

693
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 2: them in the same way that you might be bound

694
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 2: to know a person and a domestic relationship.

695
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: Trauma bond.

696
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly that that the peak sensation of trauma

697
00:42:54,880 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: bond can feel like euphoria because at a certain point,

698
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 2: something happens neurologically that forces a kind of fawn response

699
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 2: or some kind of surrender or collapse. And what I

700
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 2: noticed in this second group was that often I would

701
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 2: get to a peak point of and they even called

702
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: it a crisis, a crisis of light.

703
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 1: Interesting.

704
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 2: You would get to a point of contemplating whatever it

705
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 2: was the teacher was talking about, or your own mortality,

706
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 2: or wondering asking you know, what exactly was the difference

707
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: between you and God, or some kind of just impossible

708
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 2: question that was scrambling all of your cognitive capacity. And

709
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: that combined with kind of like like the social pressure

710
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: of who is this teacher? Why do I love them

711
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 2: so much? Why do they scare the shit out of me?

712
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 2: It caused on a regular basis for me, this feeling

713
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 2: of explosive release and catharsis that flooded my body with

714
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: warmth and that then when my fellow cult mates could

715
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 2: identify that I was going through that, they would say, oh,

716
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 2: that's it. And I think that this is where what

717
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 2: might be a stress or a trauma response gets renarrativized

718
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 2: instantly by the group into proof of the efficacy of

719
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 2: the spiritual practice.

720
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: Right, I love how you said that.

721
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: Then it becomes part of the marketing, like everybody wants this,

722
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: this is what we're going for. And then and then

723
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 2: people will create and intensify these pressurized experiences and practices

724
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 2: in order to accelerate those processes, because once it happens,

725
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: you want it to happen again, because that's when you

726
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 2: were real, that's when you felt God really within you.

727
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 2: Did you come down back to earth? There was always

728
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 2: some sort of talk about, well, you really need to

729
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: integrate these experiences, but nobody knew, what the fuck?

730
00:44:59,400 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: How do you?

731
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 2: Nobody? Well, how do you integrate a traumatic experience which

732
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: you're being told is good, right, exactly, it doesn't make sense.

733
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean anything. My auditory hallucinations when I was

734
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: meditating a lot were out of control, I mean out.

735
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 3: Of If it can have that effect on your brain,

736
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 3: it does not seem even remotely irrational to me that

737
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 3: it could also have a physical effect on your body,

738
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 3: and those things would combine to feel like an out

739
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 3: of you know.

740
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 2: Spiritual experience one hundred percent. I actually, I mean I

741
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: think that it actually it's an argument for the materialism

742
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 2: of spiritual experience. I think is that there are such

743
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 2: clear intersecting conditions under which this happens, both physically and socially,

744
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: that yeah, it's it's not like I don't think we

745
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 2: know exactly why it happens. But that doesn't mean that

746
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 2: it's a mystery.

747
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

748
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: I would say that the one of the top researchers

749
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 2: of this from a Buddhist meditation standpoint is Willoughby Britain.

750
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,240
Speaker 2: I don't know if you are familiar with her work,

751
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 2: but she runs a place called the Cheetah House, and

752
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: she offers seminars but also some kind of interactive treatment

753
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 2: programs for meditators who have had like psychotic breaks during

754
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 2: ten day Fepasita retreats.

755
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 3: Wow, So how did you leave Michael Roach and then

756
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 3: start following a new person?

757
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 2: Michael Roach went into retreat. He gave me an impossible

758
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 2: but also make work that I could understand project. He

759
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 2: told me to move to Madison, Wisconsin, so that I

760
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,919
Speaker 2: could take courses with one of the Lamas who had

761
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 2: been on the academic kind of panel who passed the

762
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 2: Dalai Lama during his examinations back in the nineteen fifties.

763
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 2: So I spent several months doing that, and there was

764
00:46:55,360 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 2: something about him leaving me realizing that, oh, he's actually

765
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 2: in a series of abusive relationships with his inner circle

766
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 2: and he has been exploiting my skills for the last

767
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 2: several years. That kind of just sent me into a spiral.

768
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: But at this point, I was three years behind in

769
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 2: whatever sort of career pursuit I might have taken. I

770
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 2: was three years having alienated many of my friends back

771
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 2: here in Toronto. I was I was lost again, and

772
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 2: so I cult hopped, which is not that uncommon because

773
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 2: in order to leave, I think you really need to

774
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 2: have the social and economic landing spot that is going

775
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 2: to make that work right. And so I had one

776
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 2: friend back in Vermont. His name is Miles and he

777
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 2: ran this incredible farm retreat center that I used to

778
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,280
Speaker 2: work on and farm on. I did some construction for him.

779
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 2: He was one of my dearest friends. And he had

780
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 2: told me. I was in Madison, wiscd said. He had

781
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 2: told me that the most profound spiritual teaching he'd ever

782
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 2: received in his life came through a guy named Charles Anderson.

783
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 2: And he was in this weird little place called in

784
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: dev Academy in the Wisconsin Dells. And I was at

785
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 2: a payphone, I think in Madison, and I phoned him

786
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 2: up and I said, who is that again? Who is

787
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 2: that guy? And he said, oh, okay, Well, you know

788
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 2: you want to go to Wisconsin Del's and you want

789
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 2: to look for the Cheese Factory restaurant. And no, this

790
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 2: is wild and you'll probably find it from there. So

791
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 2: the Cheese Factory Restaurant is one of the businesses that

792
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: in Deva Academy ran. It's a vegetarian kind of diner

793
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 2: fifties style, in the sort of themes that Charles Anderson loved, stealing.

794
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 1: The valor of Cheesecake Factory, though I gotta say.

795
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: A little bit, a little bit, and my waiter that

796
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 2: day was a guy who became my best friend and

797
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 2: like my musical companion. We did a record together. His

798
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 2: name was Max. And from there I was drawn into

799
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: this other community which was much much more charismatic and

800
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 2: the focus of it was a course in miracles. And yeah,

801
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 2: I feel fortunate within my two experiences that you know,

802
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 2: both of these guys were definitely exploitative. You know, I

803
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 2: believe that Michael Roach was in a series of abusive

804
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 2: relationships with his students, But we were not in the

805
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 2: category of like Rajnishpuram. It's not in the category of

806
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 2: you know, Synanon where Dieterick is putting out hits on people,

807
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 2: or these are not profoundly pair annoyed and you know,

808
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 2: militarizing and.

809
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 1: Violent, right right, It's not a scientology person following you

810
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 1: around like no, But how did Michael react to you leaving?

811
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: I mean, was he.

812
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 2: Oh, he couldn't be fucked? He was, he was, he

813
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,439
Speaker 2: was off, he was in his own retreat.

814
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: Didn't care with his six Yeah, okay, got you.

815
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 3: If you were a hot girl, maybe you would have

816
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 3: given a little more.

817
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: He was fine, he was fine. He was living his

818
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 2: best life. And yeah. So so one of the funniest

819
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 2: things about cult talking is that if you if you

820
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 2: go to a second group, very concerned people from the

821
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 2: first group will send you very concerned letters about how

822
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 2: you ventured cult. So I got a bunch of those.

823
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 2: That was That was a hoot.

824
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 3: My I've told the story a million times, but I

825
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 3: will tell it to you now. My mom knew Keith

826
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 3: Ranieri prenexim Keith Ranieri like proto nexium when she was

827
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 3: preyed upon by this other cult leader, and Keith Raniery

828
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 3: was doing the exact same thing, like telling her she

829
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 3: was in a cult and all this stuff. I meanwhile,

830
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 3: he'd been like, come to Albany.

831
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 1: Joined my program. It's so funny that they do that.

832
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: Well, they can tell, they can tell, I think right exactly.

833
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,240
Speaker 1: And I'm sure a lot of them had very serious

834
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 1: misgivings and were worried about you because they thought that

835
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 1: they found something real.

836
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't. I'm laughing at these letters that

837
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: I that I received. But they were earnest, Yeah, they

838
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 2: were earnest.

839
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,280
Speaker 3: And that concludes Part one for now come back part Nope,

840
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 3: come back next week for part two, come back Part

841
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 3: two for next week is what I was going to say, Megan.

842
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 3: It begs the question now at the end of episode one,

843
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 3: would you join Guru number one, Michael Roach's cohort.

844
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,919
Speaker 1: I think I would. I think you would too. Tell

845
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 1: me more. I just really like that he had kind

846
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: of a curriculum, you know, I love a good curriculum

847
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 1: or like we're building on something. I feel like he

848
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: really used people's days up in a way that would

849
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: have made me feel productive again. He has that credential

850
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 1: of being a very smart person that would probably intrigue me,

851
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: and I'm somebody who's very susceptible to his lineage of teaching,

852
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: his sort of message. So yeah, put me in coach.

853
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 3: I actually think this is a rare one that I

854
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 3: might join you on.

855
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Look because.

856
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 3: Because I would fall for the credential, I'd fall for

857
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 3: the Harvard thing. As we know, I do appreciate meditation

858
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 3: and I also really like classes.

859
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 1: You know.

860
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 3: I got that inner need for productivity and feel like

861
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 3: I'm achieving, and it would get me with that, especially

862
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 3: especially because Matthew described Michael Roach as being emotionally incontinent

863
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 3: and I am such a suck for a man who

864
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 3: can express his feelings. I will tell you I'm sold.

865
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 3: Sign you right up, I'm following.

866
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

867
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: Sounds like we're both in a cult now. So cool,

868
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 1: Thank you God to do it together.

869
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 2: Yay.

870
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,720
Speaker 3: Next week we will be talking more about the next

871
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Speaker 3: guru that Matthew followed.

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Speaker 1: So stay tuned, stay tuned. Rate us five stars if

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Speaker 1: you have the temptation within you, and as always, remember

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Speaker 1: to follow your gut, watch out for rad flax, and

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Speaker 1: never ever trust me. Bye.

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Speaker 3: This has been an exactly right production hosted by me

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Speaker 3: Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is

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Speaker 3: Gee Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

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Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

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Speaker 1: is Patrick Kuttner.

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Speaker 3: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

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Speaker 1: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hartstark

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Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer.

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Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast

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Speaker 3: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

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Speaker 1: Shoot us an email at trustmepodat gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Listen to Trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

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Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.