1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,720
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the

2
00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 1: show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for

3
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:33,559
Speaker 1: tuning in. Let's give a shout out to the man,

4
00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,959
Speaker 1: the myth, the legend, even after a long weekend. It's

5
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,080
Speaker 1: our super producer, mister Max Williams.

6
00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,120
Speaker 2: Woo who Happy Labor Day, guys, Max the patent troll Williams.

7
00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:44,879
Speaker 3: It's true.

8
00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:50,280
Speaker 1: Da he trollin And you're Noel Brown and I'm Ben Bollen.

9
00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,160
Speaker 1: And recently, in an episode or i should say, a

10
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,880
Speaker 1: series on the history of drive ins, we talked about

11
00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 1: the guy who patented concept of a drive in, Richard

12
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,600
Speaker 1: Milton Hollingshead Junior.

13
00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,760
Speaker 3: That's right, great name, great idea. I do believe there was.

14
00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,720
Speaker 2: There were some questions that popped up immediately on the

15
00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,160
Speaker 2: inherent novelty of this idea in terms of like the

16
00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,920
Speaker 2: setup and what made it patent worthy. And then we

17
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:21,880
Speaker 2: kind of got into that and explained a little bit

18
00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,600
Speaker 2: of the nature of patents and the time limits and

19
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,199
Speaker 2: all of that in the episode. But today we're gonna

20
00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,240
Speaker 2: get a lot deeper into the concepts of patents in general,

21
00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:32,480
Speaker 2: which I think is something.

22
00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,600
Speaker 3: That a lot of people might be a little hazy

23
00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:35,520
Speaker 3: on I certainly was.

24
00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, it turns out there's a reason it's an entire

25
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:44,280
Speaker 1: specialization for the lawyer types. This is not the history

26
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,840
Speaker 1: of intellectual property. Please check out our two part episode

27
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,520
Speaker 1: last year on IP and shout out to the Big

28
00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,400
Speaker 1: Mouse for now. Like you said, Noel, I think patents

29
00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:01,360
Speaker 1: are pretty confusing to the average person. Before we dive in,

30
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,000
Speaker 1: we have to define what a patent is. And luckily,

31
00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,000
Speaker 1: at least the definition of a patent is pretty agreed

32
00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:10,560
Speaker 1: upon it.

33
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,520
Speaker 2: There's a really helpful kind of cheat sheet on the

34
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,359
Speaker 2: University of Iowa, of all places. I'm sorry, I don't

35
00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,040
Speaker 2: know why I act like Iowa is some sort of

36
00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,040
Speaker 2: like you know, deep cut state.

37
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:28,400
Speaker 3: Plenty of things go on.

38
00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,800
Speaker 2: In Iowa, including a very helpful defining of patent basics.

39
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,960
Speaker 2: You can find this if you just search on the

40
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,920
Speaker 2: University of Iowa Library's website. But they define a patent

41
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,120
Speaker 2: as an intellectual property right granted by the government to

42
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,000
Speaker 2: an inventor or owner to exclude others from making, using,

43
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,119
Speaker 2: offering for sale, or selling the invention throughout the said country,

44
00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,240
Speaker 2: or importing the invention into the said country for a

45
00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,400
Speaker 2: limited time in exchange for public disclosure of the invention.

46
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,400
Speaker 1: That's a cool part. Also shout out to the University

47
00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,320
Speaker 1: of Iowa. They have one of the best writing programs

48
00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,120
Speaker 1: in the United States and therefore arguably the world. The

49
00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,360
Speaker 1: last part of the definition you read there, NOL is

50
00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,680
Speaker 1: I think one of the easiest ways for we, the

51
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,120
Speaker 1: non lawyers, to understand the nature of a patent. You

52
00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:25,480
Speaker 1: are essentially making a trade with a state government. You

53
00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,840
Speaker 1: are saying, look, I will go public with this right.

54
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,840
Speaker 1: The idea is the powers that be are allowing you

55
00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,920
Speaker 1: to propagate your invention with a degree of exclusivity because

56
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,040
Speaker 1: you have agreed to share it in some way with

57
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:42,720
Speaker 1: the public.

58
00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I believe when you file for a patent

59
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,760
Speaker 2: with the government, you're essentially filing a schematic or plans

60
00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,160
Speaker 2: you know of said invention. Though I'm sure it gets

61
00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,560
Speaker 2: a little murky when it comes to like trade secrets,

62
00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:02,960
Speaker 2: for example, like you aren't necessarily required to define every

63
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,520
Speaker 2: single piece of material it's used to make your products.

64
00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:08,240
Speaker 3: I don't know too much about this yet.

65
00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,320
Speaker 4: I'm gonna do some more research later on, but it

66
00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,640
Speaker 4: feels like like from the stuff I was reading that

67
00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,480
Speaker 4: they've started to establish trade secrets as its own fourth category.

68
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,480
Speaker 4: So you have like patterns, you have trademarks, you copyrights,

69
00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,960
Speaker 4: and now you have trade secrets because to your point, Nol,

70
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,799
Speaker 4: it's like, like a pattern is very cut and dry,

71
00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:27,800
Speaker 4: and that's why I really like them, because it's like,

72
00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,360
Speaker 4: this is how you make X.

73
00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,320
Speaker 3: Well, a trade secret, it's like how do you make X?

74
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,800
Speaker 1: And then someone sort of steeples their fingers and does

75
00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,320
Speaker 1: little Monty burns and they say, wouldn't you like to know?

76
00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,240
Speaker 1: Wouldn't you like to know? Indeed?

77
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,680
Speaker 2: Because I mean I could take a filed patent. You know,

78
00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,200
Speaker 2: that is public domain. It is available to public as

79
00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,600
Speaker 2: literally a whole caveat of being granted the patent, and

80
00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 2: I could probably mock up something close to what the

81
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,960
Speaker 2: real thing is. But surely there are certain components that

82
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,080
Speaker 2: don't have to be disclosed, certain like you know, actual

83
00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,440
Speaker 2: materials or industrial processes inherent to making the thing. They

84
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,240
Speaker 2: aren't necessarily included in that filing.

85
00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,400
Speaker 1: And I love Max You're pointing out there are different

86
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:20,000
Speaker 1: species of this conceptual ownership. We could call it. The

87
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,320
Speaker 1: trademark is not the patent right, and the IP is

88
00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,520
Speaker 1: not necessarily the patent. But patents were a big, big deal.

89
00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,919
Speaker 1: The United States talks about them in the Constitution, specifically

90
00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:38,520
Speaker 1: in Article one, Section eight, clause eight, and their idea,

91
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:43,680
Speaker 1: as we'll find, comes from the earlier legal framework of

92
00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,599
Speaker 1: the United Kingdom. They said, all right, we know we're

93
00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:52,640
Speaker 1: anti monarchy and this monarchy and specific However, not all

94
00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 1: of their ideas were bad. That's why the Constitution says, essentially,

95
00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,920
Speaker 1: the Congress will have power quote to promote the progress

96
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,159
Speaker 1: of science and useful arts, a term that will be

97
00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,080
Speaker 1: important later, by securing for limited times to authors and

98
00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,400
Speaker 1: inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discovery.

99
00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,560
Speaker 1: And they didn't put in that clause, by the way,

100
00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,039
Speaker 1: that was editorial. They didn't say a phrase that will

101
00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:16,920
Speaker 1: be important later.

102
00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,000
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's essentially a I mean, I think

103
00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,119
Speaker 2: the term promote the progress of science and useful arts

104
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,720
Speaker 2: is really important because without some kind of protection, it

105
00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,040
Speaker 2: doesn't really incentivize smart people to share their ideas for

106
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,760
Speaker 2: fear that they're just going to get them ripped off immediately.

107
00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,080
Speaker 2: So this really is a way of promoting the spread

108
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 2: of good and useful ideas and technology by smart people.

109
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,359
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, I mean, think about it, right, let's

110
00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:50,680
Speaker 1: exercise the empathy of these other perspectives. You spend twenty

111
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,680
Speaker 1: years of your life figuring out a new and brilliant

112
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,480
Speaker 1: process to make don't know shoes, right, You figured it out,

113
00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,640
Speaker 1: and if you go public with it without some sort

114
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,480
Speaker 1: of legal protection, what's to stop the next cobbler down

115
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:10,520
Speaker 1: the way from immediately taking that idea right, taking literal

116
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,920
Speaker 1: decades of your blood, sweat and tears. And that's why

117
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,280
Speaker 1: a patent, as we'll see, is sort of a mini

118
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,840
Speaker 1: or constrained monopoly. If we go back to University of Iowa,

119
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,640
Speaker 1: they talk about the expiration date for patents.

120
00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,720
Speaker 2: That's right, I mean, And we're gonna end up using

121
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,600
Speaker 2: the term kind of mini monopoly, which I like because

122
00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,080
Speaker 2: a big question that comes up is like, aren't monopolies bad?

123
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,360
Speaker 2: Don't we not want to create monopolies? And so while

124
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,360
Speaker 2: the term monopoly is used for what is the duration

125
00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,920
Speaker 2: of a patent that is issued, it isn't the same

126
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,440
Speaker 2: as a monopoly of an entire industry. It is like

127
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,560
Speaker 2: an individual or groups monopoly over an idea that they

128
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,800
Speaker 2: created for a period of time. And like another good

129
00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:57,400
Speaker 2: way of thinking about that is like think of like

130
00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,000
Speaker 2: medications that then, after a certain period of time, become generic.

131
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,000
Speaker 2: You know, that is also a positive thing that allows

132
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,360
Speaker 2: those medications to then be created by other groups and

133
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 2: made more widely available and potentially more affordable.

134
00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the medication or the field of medicine in general,

135
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 1: as we'll see, as quite a sticky wicket. I would say,

136
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,840
Speaker 1: even a little bit of stuff they don't want you to.

137
00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:22,680
Speaker 3: Know big time.

138
00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, there, certainly we've got episodes about that out there.

139
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,600
Speaker 2: Look at I would say, look for the episodes about

140
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,839
Speaker 2: the Sackler family and just the idea of how medications

141
00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,960
Speaker 2: are approved and marketed specifically, that is where the real

142
00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,800
Speaker 2: nasty rubber hits the road. But twenty years, if I

143
00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,400
Speaker 2: didn't say that already, is the term that is assigned

144
00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 2: for a properly registered patent.

145
00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,880
Speaker 1: And what you get in the twenty years is the

146
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,840
Speaker 1: following exclusive rights to stop other people from making or

147
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,680
Speaker 1: selling your invention, your patent. The USPTO or US Patent

148
00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,240
Speaker 1: and Trademark Office is the big wig for this stuff.

149
00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:07,600
Speaker 1: They handle over something like three hundred thousand patent applications

150
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 1: per year on average. And another thing that will be

151
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:16,120
Speaker 1: important later, most countries have their own thing here. Getting

152
00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,200
Speaker 1: a patent in the United States or getting a patent

153
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,960
Speaker 1: in the United Kingdom doesn't apply across the globe.

154
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,199
Speaker 2: For a time, there was even an issue with our

155
00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,839
Speaker 2: giant company that were a part of iHeartRadio, or we

156
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,480
Speaker 2: weren't able to broadcast or even podcasts using that trademark

157
00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,319
Speaker 2: in the United Kingdom. I don't know the details of it.

158
00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,959
Speaker 2: It was sorted out, but for a time it was

159
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,640
Speaker 2: a bit complicated and caused some shuffling, kind of shenanigans

160
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,760
Speaker 2: on the part of US podcasters and radio presenters in

161
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:46,440
Speaker 2: order to make our stuff available in the UK.

162
00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,880
Speaker 1: And yeah, and this was again, this was a whole

163
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:54,160
Speaker 1: bag of badgers, definitely above our collective pay grade. But

164
00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,800
Speaker 1: we can assure you it did get worked out. It

165
00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,960
Speaker 1: is something that made a lot of lawyers I think,

166
00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:08,080
Speaker 1: really earn their crust for a while. And we see

167
00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,480
Speaker 1: how sticky it gets again with the difference between a

168
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,720
Speaker 1: trademark and a patent, and the difference between like what

169
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,679
Speaker 1: is a brand which will collectively roll our eyes out. Later,

170
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,120
Speaker 1: if you're looking at patents in the United States, you're

171
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:26,440
Speaker 1: gonna see three species. The vast majority of patents are

172
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,719
Speaker 1: what we call utility patents about ninety one percent year

173
00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,920
Speaker 1: over year, and then there are design patents that's about

174
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,400
Speaker 1: nine percent. And then there's something called plant patents. Now

175
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,760
Speaker 1: they're by far the minority in this in this great panopoly.

176
00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,960
Speaker 1: That's we're talking something around zero point five percent.

177
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, just in case anyone's curious and or confused like me,

178
00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,439
Speaker 2: A plant patent is a grant from the US government

179
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,200
Speaker 2: to an inventor who has discovered or invented a new

180
00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,680
Speaker 2: variety of plants that can be reproduced asexually. And I

181
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:03,360
Speaker 2: gotta wonder if, with the explosion of legalized marijuana in

182
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,640
Speaker 2: the United States, if some of, if a lot of

183
00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,440
Speaker 2: these plant patterns have to do with certain hybridizations of

184
00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,600
Speaker 2: various marijuana plants and another explosion hot peppers.

185
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,960
Speaker 3: I almost guarantee that's another part of it.

186
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,080
Speaker 4: It has to be. Yeah, And like to be honest,

187
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,200
Speaker 4: when I was writing this, I saw plants, plant and

188
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:25,760
Speaker 4: I was just like, Okay, let's be talking about like, you.

189
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:26,760
Speaker 3: Know, fact manufacturing.

190
00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,400
Speaker 4: That's exactly what I thought that I'm typing it up

191
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,800
Speaker 4: A b oh No, they're literally talking about a plant.

192
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,880
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, which is still a huge deal. This also

193
00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:42,280
Speaker 1: includes things that might be loosely categorized as GMO products

194
00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,440
Speaker 1: genetically modified organisms. It could include, you know, things like

195
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,600
Speaker 1: the controversial terminator seed lines where you have to buy

196
00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,520
Speaker 1: the seed year over year from the same company. The

197
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,840
Speaker 1: design patents are just what they sound like, a new,

198
00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 1: original or ornamental design for an article of manufacture, and

199
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,400
Speaker 1: the big ones the vast majority. Again, the utility patents

200
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,640
Speaker 1: are a new and useful one process, two machine, three

201
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,640
Speaker 1: article of manufacture, or four composition of matter. So that's

202
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,240
Speaker 1: where you get to material science.

203
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,240
Speaker 2: And in terms of design, they have to be all

204
00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:27,560
Speaker 2: of the following, a new, original and ornamental design for

205
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,520
Speaker 2: an article of manufacture. But it's not also to be

206
00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,640
Speaker 2: confused with trademarks, because you can have a logo that

207
00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,640
Speaker 2: would fall under trademark even though that is a design

208
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,280
Speaker 2: y element. I believe this would fall more under a

209
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,920
Speaker 2: product that isn't proprietary in and of itself. But the

210
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,000
Speaker 2: look of it is.

211
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,600
Speaker 1: Like going back to shoes examples, flip flops versus sandals. Right,

212
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,320
Speaker 1: it's the same basic idea, but the way they adhere

213
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:57,800
Speaker 1: to your feet is different, right and ornamentally so also.

214
00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:03,000
Speaker 2: Possibly like the soul of a particular like Doc Martin

215
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,240
Speaker 2: or something like that. But then again that could also

216
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,839
Speaker 2: fall under utility because it's a part of the shoe.

217
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,560
Speaker 2: But it is a functional, utility part of the shoe

218
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,160
Speaker 2: that perhaps has some proprietary quality to it.

219
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:14,319
Speaker 3: Shout out to Crocs.

220
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,360
Speaker 4: I'm wearing a Seattle Mariner's jersey right now, and the

221
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,320
Speaker 4: materials may out of like definitely is like you know,

222
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:21,719
Speaker 4: pattent and by Nike.

223
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,800
Speaker 3: The fabric blend literally that, right, yeah, right, yeah.

224
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,760
Speaker 1: And as we can see, this can get confusing because

225
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,240
Speaker 1: we're looking at a series of especially with utility and design,

226
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,679
Speaker 1: we're looking at an intense series of Venn diagrams, right,

227
00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:40,800
Speaker 1: and determining which sort of patent you acquire or aspire

228
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,600
Speaker 1: toward is Again it's a huge industry and one of

229
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,560
Speaker 1: the other tricky things that we have to say at

230
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,920
Speaker 1: the front, not everything is patent to bolt, right.

231
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:50,640
Speaker 3: You can't.

232
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,360
Speaker 1: You can't patent stuff that is here we go a

233
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:55,240
Speaker 1: law of nature.

234
00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,080
Speaker 3: Can you patent the wind? Right?

235
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,400
Speaker 1: Can you sing with all the colors? You cannot legally

236
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:06,280
Speaker 1: own gravity, nor physical phenomena, nor abstract ideas. The most

237
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:12,319
Speaker 1: common word in the English language is the word the right,

238
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:17,679
Speaker 1: So you cannot patent the concept of patenting at abstract

239
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,360
Speaker 1: idea just to get meta with it.

240
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:19,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

241
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,520
Speaker 2: But but speaking of getting meta with it, I bet

242
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,600
Speaker 2: that would also apply to philosophical concepts, right. You could

243
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,360
Speaker 2: possibly copyright a book wherein you discuss a lot of

244
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,240
Speaker 2: these concepts, but you can't trademark or patent rather a

245
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,080
Speaker 2: specific concept like you know, I think, therefore I am,

246
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:36,760
Speaker 2: or something like that.

247
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,800
Speaker 4: Side note, did you guys know the Ohio State University

248
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 4: did get a trademark for.

249
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:48,320
Speaker 1: The Well, trademark is not a patent, I guess, true, Right,

250
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,800
Speaker 1: so they could, so they were able to skirt by

251
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,040
Speaker 1: with that one. But I love the point that no

252
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,920
Speaker 1: one can own nihilism, even though we've all.

253
00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,440
Speaker 3: Experienced her, have we ever? On the daily?

254
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,360
Speaker 2: And then there are just some things that should be

255
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:06,040
Speaker 2: excluded from the concept of patents because they belong under

256
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,880
Speaker 2: another umbrella. Literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works of course

257
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 2: fall under copyright. And then there's the final outlier, which

258
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,440
Speaker 2: doesn't really belong anywhere, inventions which are not useful or

259
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,800
Speaker 2: offensive to public morality.

260
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 4: I will jump in and say that gets interesting that

261
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,960
Speaker 4: when we get into international.

262
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:30,920
Speaker 1: Patterns exactly right, because cultural and social mores vary widely.

263
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,280
Speaker 1: Max we get some scary music for the worst example.

264
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:43,000
Speaker 1: Imagine you somehow created a contagion that only targeted a

265
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:44,920
Speaker 1: specific type of person.

266
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:47,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

267
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the kind of thing that is universally

268
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,560
Speaker 1: offensive to public morality. But as we said, it gets

269
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:56,960
Speaker 1: much more complicated.

270
00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,400
Speaker 2: But that's also the kind of thing that the government

271
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,200
Speaker 2: would probably do keep a lid on, and would it

272
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 2: wouldn't even ever enter the conversation, would you know what

273
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 2: I mean? Like if that were if that were a thing,

274
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,640
Speaker 2: and you know, likely it would be invented either through

275
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,720
Speaker 2: the government or attained by the government, because I dont

276
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,800
Speaker 2: think we're going to talk about this today in this

277
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 2: particular context. But something that we talk about on something

278
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,040
Speaker 2: that I want you to know all the time, yeah,

279
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 2: is if someone invents a thing and then files a

280
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,520
Speaker 2: patent and the government catches win to that and it's

281
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,320
Speaker 2: something that could have a potential risk to national security

282
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,440
Speaker 2: or some other vague concept that the government likes to

283
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,640
Speaker 2: keep a handle on. They can seize it and everything

284
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,720
Speaker 2: associated with them, and it's no longer yours.

285
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,640
Speaker 1: And there's a gag order so you may be a

286
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,880
Speaker 1: ridiculous historian joining us today and you may have been

287
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 1: part of this.

288
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:48,720
Speaker 3: Now they what is that call? Again?

289
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,400
Speaker 1: It is the Invention Secrecy Act of nineteen fifty one.

290
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,920
Speaker 1: The other thing that it imposes upon is inventions or

291
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:04,040
Speaker 1: patents that may somehow threaten economic stability. Right, so that

292
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,920
Speaker 1: could go to things like imagine, what's one of the

293
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:12,320
Speaker 1: examples I used this earlier identificue, right that only you

294
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,879
Speaker 1: only have to use once a year. Is that going

295
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,080
Speaker 1: to topple an industry?

296
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:17,680
Speaker 3: See?

297
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,840
Speaker 2: But then you gotta wonder about like things like the

298
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,800
Speaker 2: cure to cancer, you know, like with that topple, the

299
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:28,119
Speaker 2: insurance industry with that topple, like medical insurance and the

300
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:29,080
Speaker 2: big pharma.

301
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,399
Speaker 3: I mean, sorry not to get our.

302
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,080
Speaker 2: Conspiracy hats on too heavily right now, but I do

303
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:34,760
Speaker 2: really think.

304
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,560
Speaker 3: About these kind of things. I think you do too bad.

305
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,399
Speaker 2: I mean it does call into question like how deep

306
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 2: does the government go in terms of defining these things?

307
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:45,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's nuts.

308
00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,960
Speaker 1: Please check out our episode Audit, which unfortunately still holds up.

309
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,959
Speaker 1: And we're very in that episode. We're collectively going, I

310
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,080
Speaker 1: don't like it, but I get it, but I don't

311
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:06,679
Speaker 1: like it, but I get it. The first recorded patent

312
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 1: that we know of was granted in fourteen twenty one

313
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,919
Speaker 1: in Florence to a guy named Filipo brune Eschi. And

314
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,760
Speaker 1: we are not native Italian speakers. That's something I'll come

315
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,920
Speaker 1: up in a future episode on the history of pasta.

316
00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,000
Speaker 3: Just do your hand like this when you say you

317
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,240
Speaker 3: know what I'm doing. Guys, everybody knows what I'm doing.

318
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,879
Speaker 2: Brune Leeschi, you know, and then it's fine, and yeah,

319
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:31,640
Speaker 2: this was This guy was a big deal in early

320
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 2: Renaissance architecture. In a lot of cases, governments issued grants

321
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,399
Speaker 2: for the importation and establishment of new industries, like in

322
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,840
Speaker 2: England during the reign of Queen Elizabeth the First. But

323
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:50,040
Speaker 2: it started to become kind of in the zeitgeist that

324
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 2: the English Crown was abusing its authorities and perhaps playing favorites,

325
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,640
Speaker 2: granting these kinds of rights to only folks that kind

326
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,240
Speaker 2: of were in the inner circle.

327
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,359
Speaker 1: A little bit of nepotism. God forbid we bring that

328
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,760
Speaker 1: up with monarchies. But because of this, because of the

329
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,600
Speaker 1: increasing controversy, especially with the English Crown and the Privy Council,

330
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,400
Speaker 1: common law courts of the time started to scrutinize these

331
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,240
Speaker 1: patent applications with a little more care. And this led

332
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 1: to sixteen twenty three when Parliament enacted something called the

333
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 1: Statute of Monopolies. It prohibited most royal monopolies, but it

334
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 1: gave the right, or it preserved the right we should

335
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:41,600
Speaker 1: say to grant letters patent for inventions of new manufacturing

336
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 1: for up to fourteen years. So again a mini monopoly letters.

337
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,400
Speaker 3: Patent literally referring to kind of the document right like.

338
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,320
Speaker 1: Issued, yeah, yeah, just so, And this is great for

339
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,480
Speaker 1: marketing if you're starting a business in England at the time.

340
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 1: But again, there were so many wide variations in patent systems.

341
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 1: Depending on which country you were in, they had different,

342
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, different windows of time for exclusivity. It could

343
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,159
Speaker 1: be sixteen years, it could be twenty years. Sometimes a

344
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,919
Speaker 1: country would grant a shorter term for a specific patent.

345
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 1: They would say something to the tune of, hey, this

346
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,399
Speaker 1: is a great idea, my guy, this is so great

347
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 1: that everyone needs to be able to make it because

348
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,639
Speaker 1: our nation needs more of these things in the world.

349
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,720
Speaker 1: So just for the greater good, you got to take

350
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 1: a knee. We can only give you a few years

351
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:36,359
Speaker 1: on this one.

352
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 2: That is interesting because if you think about it, it's

353
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,959
Speaker 2: almost like, yeah, you own the patent for this, but

354
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,159
Speaker 2: maybe you're not the best outfit that would have the

355
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,639
Speaker 2: you know, resources to produce this thing at proper scale.

356
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,159
Speaker 2: So therefore we're gonna let you have some fun with

357
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,880
Speaker 2: it for a little bit, knowing that eventually it will

358
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,680
Speaker 2: pass into the public domain and then potentially we'll be

359
00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,680
Speaker 2: able to be produced much more widely.

360
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,399
Speaker 1: That's a great point the infrastructure argument. Right, you have

361
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 1: the right to do this at your cottage level for

362
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,959
Speaker 1: a few years, but then we have to pass it

363
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 1: to the people who already have trade networks and mass infrastructure.

364
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,360
Speaker 2: That's right, though, the laws of like economics would kind

365
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 2: of imply that if something was a great enough idea,

366
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,200
Speaker 2: then the money would flow and the small company would

367
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 2: no longer be small. They would able to be able

368
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 2: to parlay that amazing idea into set infrastructure. So it's

369
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,120
Speaker 2: kind of a double edged sword there. I'm not quite

370
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:33,120
Speaker 2: sure which side is right.

371
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

372
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 1: There, we can imagine already in ridiculous cinema, an early

373
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 1: version of Shark Tank, right where somebody might say, hey,

374
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 1: we're in a hurry to get this out, so Can

375
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 1: we just buy the rights from you? Can we just

376
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 1: pay you some sort of partnership fee? In communist countries

377
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: it gets pretty fascinating because, of course, the Soviet Union

378
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 1: during its time treated the concept of property pretty differently.

379
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 1: So patents as we would understand them in the West,

380
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 1: weren't really a thing. Instead, if you were an inventor,

381
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 1: you got a certificate of some sort a certification that said, hey,

382
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 1: this person, this Jane or Joe, they deserve some form

383
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 1: of compensation.

384
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 2: Ata boy, you hopefully a little compensation. But it does

385
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 2: seem to me almost like they were in that situation,

386
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,400
Speaker 2: are treating these things a little more like we would

387
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 2: treat the laws of nature.

388
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit right. It was all for the

389
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: greater good.

390
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 3: Of the unis, of the collective unconscious. Yeah.

391
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 1: And so as as trade networks expand and as the

392
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: world becomes an increasingly smaller place, people are realizing that

393
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: they need these rules to be more uniform. It's similar

394
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 1: to the rollout of international rail when multiple countries said, whoops,

395
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: we have different gauges on our trade tracks.

396
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 3: That's a really good point.

397
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 2: And when you start to venge sure into these types

398
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 2: of parallel thinking, which also happens too.

399
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 3: You know, you might have an invention.

400
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 2: That's so duh. Yeah, of course that's gonna be a

401
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: thing like the toothbrush. Let's just say, for exare, well,

402
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 2: I imagine that multiple people came up with ideas for

403
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 2: something resembling the toothbrush at the same time, and that's

404
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 2: when the whole idea of novelty kind of comes into playing.

405
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Another example, just because it's I'm all neudle brained. Now,

406
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: another example would be, can you patent the idea of

407
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 1: wheat and water made into a paste?

408
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 3: Can you patent a pasta shape?

409
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 2: You can do that, Okay, you can do the spoiler alert,

410
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: spoiler alert, y'all. We got a fun episode on the

411
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 2: way about the ridiculous history of pasta.

412
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 3: Oh my god, pasta shapes. It's very excited about and

413
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 3: I am as well. Did you go to that exhibit,

414
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 3: by the way.

415
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 1: Ben, Unfortunately they were closed when I got there.

416
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're in Atlanta. I Wood's the museum.

417
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: It's the Museum of Modern Design.

418
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 2: Design, which I've never been to and really wanted to.

419
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: Ben had the great idea that had to take a

420
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 2: field trip to this history of pasta exhibit over the weekend. Unfortunately,

421
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 2: there's just a little bit too much going on and

422
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: we didn't make it, but we will explore it vicariously

423
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 2: through an episode in the very near future.

424
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: Oh and yeah, shout out to the good folks at

425
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 1: that museum. The name, if you want to look up

426
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: their upcoming exhibits is MOTA Museum of Design, Atlanta. So

427
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have said it was the Museum of Modern Design.

428
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: It's just design and justice design in general, real large, right,

429
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: It's a design patent, and this idea of these different countries, right,

430
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: having the cognitive version of different gauges on railroad tracks.

431
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: They run into this thing and they say, oh crap,

432
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: how do we solve this? And the piggle is they

433
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: never really did not really. Now you still have to

434
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: get patents everywhere separately to their earlier point you made,

435
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: Dear Noel, you have to apply for patent in every

436
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: country that you want a patent in because the patent's

437
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: power is exclusivity. So you could, for instance, like the

438
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: three of us could maybe nol you patent a breakthrough

439
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: and synthesizers. Right, of all the people, I know, you'd

440
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 1: be the guy to do it.

441
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 2: It's very kind ben the fu I think about that though,

442
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: is there really haven't been that many breakthroughs and synthesizers.

443
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: It's like the kind of thing where we're still just

444
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 2: manipulating and rewiring and doing all of these things with

445
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,719
Speaker 2: some of the basic ideas that were present like in

446
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: the thirties. Like it's super cool, and there are certainly

447
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 2: people that make products that utilize these things. And you

448
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 2: could probably do a design patent on the look and

449
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: arrangement of your piece, But you can't patent assign wave.

450
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: You can't patent a square wave. You know, you can't

451
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 2: even really probably patent a voltage controlled amplifier, which is

452
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 2: a very simple circuit. The cithicizers are all kind of

453
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: the utilized and are based on a lot of this

454
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 2: stuff has been around for generations.

455
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: Right, and so imagine how big that breakthrough would be.

456
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: Whatever this hypothetical breakthrough is, now our poor inventor are

457
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: scrappy up and comer has to not only patent it

458
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: in the United States, but has to go to every

459
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: other country where they want patent protection, because if they don't,

460
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: then you know, it's again it's the cobbler up the

461
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: street from you who likes the way that you make shoes.

462
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: Would you guys say that in this day and age,

463
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: having something coming up with something that is that would

464
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 2: pass the test of being patented is probably more and

465
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: more difficult than it used to be.

466
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 3: I would agree.

467
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: I think so the one thing, the one countervailing factor there,

468
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: and this is where the Invention Secrecy Act comes into play.

469
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: The countervailing factor will be non tangible things like lines

470
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: of code, right, different sorts of algorithmic applications, so.

471
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 2: A lot of microprocessing perhaps, yeah, very very proprietary chips

472
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: and micro circuits.

473
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 3: But yeah, I agree with you.

474
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: It's kind of like a parking lot that gets a

475
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: little bit bigger year over year, but there are still

476
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 1: a lot of cars in the parking lot, so it

477
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: can be tougher and tougher to find your spot in

478
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,479
Speaker 1: this terrible analogy.

479
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 3: Not at all.

480
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: So with all of these, you know, potential weird interactions

481
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 2: I guess we could call them, or kind of conflicts

482
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: of interest when it comes to this kind of stuff internationally,

483
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 2: definitely was time there was an opening for someone to

484
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: step in and kind of figure out a way to

485
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: codify this stuff in a way that wouldn't screw over

486
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: the world at large.

487
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Paris tries and they they have something called

488
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: the International Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property Right.

489
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: This is adopted by Pairs eighteen eighty three. It's trying

490
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: to make things a little more uniform, and then fast

491
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: forward nineteen seventies, it's still wonky and confusing, and that's

492
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: where we see a new gang called the Trade Related

493
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights TRIPS, a production of World

494
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: Trade Organization.

495
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: That's right, and the idea here was to extend patent

496
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: protection to any inventions, whether products or processes. This is

497
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 2: from the WTO language in all fields of technology, provided

498
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: that they are new, involve an inventive step, and are

499
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: capable of industrial application. We already had some of these

500
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: kind of caveats laid out. I guess this sort of

501
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: titans in the language up a little bit, but still

502
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: seems kind of broad to me.

503
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 3: The idea of a what is a novel step?

504
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 4: I think the thing that really did someone was it

505
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 4: had some enforcement because it's like, okay, you're following these

506
00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 4: It's like, if you want to be part of the WTO,

507
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 4: do you follow that rule.

508
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: So we make sense we can punish you in other

509
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: financial ways if you don't play ball. And if you

510
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: don't play ball, then guess what all of us wto, guys,

511
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: we don't have to respect what you're doing.

512
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 3: You're not saying at our table at lunch any longer.

513
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: It's true, exactly exactly.

514
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 3: They're real mean girls.

515
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: I guess you could say, kitting wto don't come for

516
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: us exactly. OMG, you guys. So with this in mind,

517
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: you can see how this is already pretty complicated. We

518
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: have to ask why a patent gives folks a monopoly

519
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: and why does it expire. This is where we go

520
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: back to the thing that I think stood out to

521
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: all of us, the concept of a mini monopoly. Right,

522
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: like you said earlier, aren't monopolies bad.

523
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: That's right.

524
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: So according to the law Offices of Jeff Williams, not

525
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: our Jeff Williams, a patent can be viewed as a

526
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: sort of mini monopoly in that the patent owner is

527
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: granted the power to prevent others from using their protected

528
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 2: technology without a license or other permission. However, it is

529
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: always possible for others to negotiate with the patent owner

530
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 2: to make use of the technology if no agreement is reached,

531
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: then the competitor may try to design around the patent

532
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: or wait a few years until the patent expires, at

533
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: which time new innovations may look even more attractive. I

534
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: want to bring up one more synth related thing if

535
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 2: I might. Again, a lot of that technology is old.

536
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 2: There are very famous synth designs companies like Roland and

537
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: you know, like COREG for example, like Legacy, usually Japanese

538
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: companies that have designed these innovative synthesizers that again combine

539
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: you know, pieces and processes that have been around for

540
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 2: a long time. But I guess what happens is those

541
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: patents expire and they go into the public domain. And

542
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 2: now there are literally this company called Barringer out of

543
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: Germany that is basically kind of reviled but also beloved

544
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: by some for creating affordable clones of these other products

545
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: that look almost identical, even minus some certain little design features.

546
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: And it's just interesting because they are hated by a

547
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: lot of people in that community. But on the other hand,

548
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: they also give people access to affordable versions of vinted

549
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: synthesizers they would never possibly be able to.

550
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: Buy, right, Yeah, agreed, And this idea of accessibility. Affordability

551
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: is a very powerful legal concept and that's part of

552
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: why patents expire.

553
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 3: Right.

554
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 1: This is where we need to give a shout out

555
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: to one guy who did the most king move in

556
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: the history of medicine, Jonas Salk. Jonahs Salt could have

557
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: become a multi billionaire, but when he made the polio vaccine,

558
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: he refused to patent it. And he had this famous

559
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: quote where he said, they said, who owns the patent, Jonas?

560
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: And he said, well, the people own it. There is

561
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: no patent. Could you patent the sun and lawyers for

562
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: different foundations investigated whether they could patent this vaccine and

563
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: make a little scratch off of helping people stay safe

564
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: from polio, and he said that's just gross. He was like,

565
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: give it out. I want everybody to make this, and

566
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: so Jonahs saw it. If somehow you are listening to

567
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: this podcast, shout out to you man.

568
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 4: I believe the COVID vaccine at least some of them

569
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 4: have that role as well, for like you know, especially

570
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 4: in international matters.

571
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: Because they were spinning it up and part of that

572
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: was state level actors paying so much for the R

573
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: and D and then saying, look if we're giving you

574
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: all this money.

575
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 2: You have to play nice, please, sure, But then you

576
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: have kind of the flip side of that. You have

577
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: real life super villain Martin Screlly, you know, who bought

578
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: the rights to a life saving pharmaceutical and then the

579
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: jack the price of it up like you know, tenfold

580
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: or whatever.

581
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 3: That stuff happens too.

582
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm glad that he has to give back the Wu

583
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: Tang album.

584
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 3: He doesn't deserve the Wuotang album.

585
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: But if you're the latest that he made a bunch

586
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: of copies of it and is literally trolling the people

587
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: that bought it legitimately or that paid for it after

588
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: it was repossessed from him.

589
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 3: The guy is an absolute.

590
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 2: Piece of work in a real life super villain that

591
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 2: let's not even go so far as to call him

592
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: a super villain.

593
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 3: He's kind of a weenie, but he he is.

594
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 4: There is a villain in a level of Bordlands two

595
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 4: that right before the boss fight with him, he stumbles

596
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 4: down a float of stairs and dies. That's what I think, Mark, And.

597
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: You know, I always try to see the good people

598
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: you guys, you know that about me. But I hope

599
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: every time that dude tries to fart, he poops his

600
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: pants just a little, just.

601
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 3: Hope it hurts a lot or just a lot.

602
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 4: And it's in public and it goes down on his

603
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 4: leg if he's wearing shorts, well that's the thing.

604
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: I want there to be a stained at the back

605
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: of the trousers.

606
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 3: You know what I mean is a human steam.

607
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: What happens when a patent expires, it becomes part of

608
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 1: the public domain. Other people can use it and market

609
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: their version of the invention. You stop receiving or you

610
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: can stop receiving the royalties from your invention, and you

611
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: can no longer enforce licensing agreements so other people can

612
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: use your invention. There's another way a patent can expire

613
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: before it's time. The maintenance fees. You haven't thought about

614
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: that for a lot of us. I'll be honest here,

615
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 1: when I was looking into some patents, I was under

616
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: the impression that I just had to play nice once

617
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: with a lawyer and the patent office. Now you got

618
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: to pay a maintenance fee. You have a subscription.

619
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 2: Now you have to prove that you're actually I believe

620
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: in exercising the patent.

621
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 3: In some you can't just like have it and then

622
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 3: not do anything with it.

623
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 2: You know, well, maybe you can maybe Okay, maybe it

624
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean you have to manufacture the thing, but

625
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: you do have to in some way participate in this,

626
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 2: either paying into the system or what have you, or

627
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: else you're going to lose it. It kind of reminds

628
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: me again not to get to cross pollinady with intellectual property.

629
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 2: But the hell Raiser films, for example, there is like

630
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: I believe it's Miramax owns the right to the hell

631
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: Raiser franchise, and in order to continue to exercise those rights,

632
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 2: they are required to make movies in that franchise, and

633
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: in order to do that and make sure they hold

634
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: onto the intellectual property, they will occasionally make really really

635
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 2: low quality movies called ash Can copies that allow them

636
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 2: to continue to exercise that control.

637
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: So this is sort of the patent d version of

638
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: that in a way, like you have to use the

639
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: parking space that you have right, so you have to

640
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: pay your parking fees. It also reminds me, of course,

641
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: of the fame It not to be too much of

642
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: a comic nerd, but a reminds me of the infamous

643
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: controversy surrounding Sony Sony will sometimes put out a movie

644
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: that's honestly not great, and the reason they're doing that

645
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: is because publishing that film, even if it's Morbius's, it

646
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 1: helps them retain the rights to that character, to its

647
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: likeness to that ip, so we see, we see this

648
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: use it or lose it mentality across the board.

649
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: Hand, it allows them to continue to mess with Marvel Studios.

650
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 3: I say, no, you can't have this villain in your movie.

651
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 3: Do some more rewrites, guys.

652
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: Sorry, Also, quit killing Uncle Ben. You know, that's one

653
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: of the best things about the New Spider Man franchise.

654
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: They just fast forwarded past that horrible moment. They were like,

655
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: we all know how though.

656
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 3: Well, also, I'm just gonna say, you just move it

657
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 3: to a different character. That's true, that's true.

658
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: Also, why does aunt May keep getting younger in every

659
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: Spider Man?

660
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 3: Phil oh Man, I really quick aside.

661
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 2: I went to a Broadway show with our good friend

662
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 2: of the show, Jordan Runtag, and.

663
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 3: We had separate seats, and afterwards.

664
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 2: He was telling me how, oh h, there was this

665
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: lovely woman sitting next to me I just had the

666
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: most lovely conversation with And he asked her oh are

667
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: you an actor?

668
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 3: Do you do this kind of stuff?

669
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 5: So well?

670
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: I've always wanted to but never really got into it.

671
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: You know, it was Marisotome. It was totally Marissitome. He

672
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 2: didn't even have the revelation until we were gone, Like,

673
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 2: I think it was the next day that he like,

674
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 2: I don't know how that happens. Like He's Jordan is

675
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 2: a guy of a very specific taste. He basically only

676
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: knows about like stuff that happened before, like the nineteen sixties.

677
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: Everything else is kind of a blind spot for him.

678
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 2: But I just love that story. He said she was

679
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: a delight and wasn't self aggrandizing at all. It was

680
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: just sort of like, you know, happy probably do not

681
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: be wrecked exactly.

682
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 3: That's it.

683
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: Most of the conversations I've had with people who turned

684
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,479
Speaker 1: out to be a list musicians or celebrities, I had

685
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: no idea, And I think it's a very enjoyable human moment.

686
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: It's sort of like when jay Z was riding the

687
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: train on the train with Woman Square and met this

688
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: beautiful lady who just wanted to encourage him to pursue

689
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: his dreams.

690
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 5: Keep going, Oh you're jay Z. I've heard of you.

691
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 5: You have mentioned, Yeah, my grandkids love you. So that is, by.

692
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: The way, you should always treat people with just a

693
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: positive human interaction, no matter what you may see their

694
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: social standing. As we also know, and we're going to

695
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: wrap up here because this will be part of a series,

696
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: we also know that we've been we've been kind of

697
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: two stepping around this. What makes a patent different from

698
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: a trademark or a copyright. It's not quite the same

699
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: as apples to bananas. It's there's not even a remote

700
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: sort of one to one thing, but it can be

701
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: very confusing in conversation. So the easiest way to say

702
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: it and shout out to our research associate Max here

703
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: is a patent is an invention. A trademark swoosh, just

704
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: do it. That's a logo. A copyright is the authorship

705
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: of a work. So for example, someone who writes the

706
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: history of Nike, they have a copyright on the book

707
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 1: they publish. However, Nike has a trademark this awesome swoosh, right,

708
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: and Nike has some patents about how you make shoes.

709
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 3: That's right.

710
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if we ever did seem like we were

711
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 2: drawing parallels between them, I think the only thing we

712
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 2: were doing was talking about they both have systems in

713
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: place and kind of benchmarks that have to be met

714
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: in order to maintain those trademarks, copyrights and patents.

715
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: And don't even get us started folks on how all

716
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: trademarks are brands, but not all brands are trademarks. It's

717
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: just like bump bump bup bup bupu, bumu, bum bu bumu.

718
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 3: It's true.

719
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: And lest we tease a topic with a nickname for

720
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: super producer Max and not follow through with it, I

721
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: think we should end today's episode with a little bit

722
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 2: of tangents and trivia surrounding the idea of patent trolls.

723
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 3: I think we were I don't want to speak everybody.

724
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: I certainly was first exposed to patent trolls in terms

725
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: of podcasting because early on we were actually lucky enough

726
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: to kind of be in on the ground floor of

727
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 2: this crazy industry of podcasting. There was a patent troll

728
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: whose name has been lost to history and I'm sure

729
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 2: you could find it, but with someone who was trying

730
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: to sue some of the biggest podcasting outfits in the

731
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 2: world over what he claimed was a novel and patentable

732
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: concept aka podcasting, the idea of publishing serialized audio content

733
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 2: on an RSS feed. And we were named in the

734
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 2: lawsuits at least our prior parent company US no thought,

735
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: but it was something like Joe Rogan, how stuff works? Yeah,

736
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 2: Jimmy Kimmel, I think Mark maren is well, you know

737
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 2: some of the ogs of podcasting. And it had the

738
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: potential to really throw a wrench in the entire industry

739
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 2: if this person prevailed. So what is a patent troll?

740
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 3: Exactly?

741
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's sort of it's a shakedout. That's the

742
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 1: best way to say. It's just blackmail our friends, ridiculous crime.

743
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: It's similar to extortion the idea. You know, a similar example,

744
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: not not involving patents, but a similar example would be

745
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: when the Internet became a wide common good, there were

746
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: there was a group of brilliant, if not ethical people

747
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: who just went around and bought domain names that they

748
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 1: knew would be really.

749
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 3: Populople still, oh dude, someone one hundred percent.

750
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 2: There was a big story on NPR recently about a

751
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 2: guy who's been doing that for years, and he does

752
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: it with campaigns. He'll buy a combination of running mate

753
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: potentials right, So he bought Harris Waltz dot com and

754
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 2: just you know, made a held out for the big

755
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 2: payday and you know, it wasn't like millions of dollars,

756
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 2: but it was like one hundred thousand dollars or something

757
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 2: significant like that. And he was interviewed, and I honestly

758
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 2: think that is a little less egregious than the hardcore

759
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 2: patent trolling, where someone you know is literally trying to

760
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 2: shake down an entire industry.

761
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that guy sounds like he's basically rolling the dice

762
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: in the casino of the Internet and politics. But a

763
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: patent troll, the issue is a patent troll is inherently

764
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: predatory and abusive because they're not trying to manufacture a thing.

765
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: They're not selling a product that they have patented. They're

766
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: waiting for someone else to do it, or some version

767
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 1: thereof or something related to that concept, and then they

768
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: try to get a ton of licensing fees from that

769
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: person who is only actually building the thing they were

770
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: pretending to build.

771
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: And you know, if you've maybe gotten the sense throughout

772
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 2: this episode that the whole patent process is a little

773
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 2: bit inefficient, you would be correct. And it relies on

774
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 2: a lot of legal jargon, and like, in order to

775
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: really navigate it, you have to be an expert. It

776
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: is a specialty of law in and of itself, like

777
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: you know, most areas of law need to be But

778
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 2: the patent troll actually really praise on that inefficiency and

779
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,720
Speaker 2: oftentimes sends these kind of blankets like cease and desist

780
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 2: letters or I guess demand letters.

781
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 3: I mean that's the word demand.

782
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 2: Lill e're in my demands to someone who they believe

783
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: is infringing on their kind of blanket filing of a

784
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: patent for a concept that is perhaps not worthy of

785
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 2: a patent.

786
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 3: It's a little.

787
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: Confusing to me too, because wasn't it determined that podcasting

788
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 2: wasn't novel enough to even qualify for a patent because

789
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 2: it was just like realized content published on a feed.

790
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, the issue is what is a good or a

791
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: bad faith assertion. We know that this patent trolling in

792
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: the United States specifically is a huge economic danger. It

793
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: costs the US something around twenty nine billion dollars a

794
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: year back in two thousand and eleven, and the study

795
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,240
Speaker 1: was published in twenty twelve. If you want to learn

796
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: more about it, there's an excellent article in the Harvard

797
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: Business Review from September of twenty twenty two hits by

798
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,919
Speaker 1: a guy named Max Bacchus, and the title says it all.

799
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: It's time for the US to tackle patent trolls because

800
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: they're not going to make the thing that's the problem.

801
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: They are not themselves going to use that proverbial parking space.

802
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: They're waiting to trap someone else.

803
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 4: And if you really think about it, that defeats the

804
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 4: actual purpose of a patent is designed for innovation. It's like, hey,

805
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 4: we will give you a temporary monopoly on this thing

806
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 4: if you are willing to. Because multiple times we brought

807
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:07,280
Speaker 4: up the R and D with pharmaceuticals because to develop

808
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 4: these pharmaceuticals and there's a lot of you know, other

809
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 4: stuff with pharmaceuticals and not gonna that not on topic

810
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 4: right here, but it's like, you have to spend so

811
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 4: much time and money making this thing that may or

812
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 4: may not work that if you have all these patent

813
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 4: trolls disincentivizing people from doing it, then we are really

814
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 4: it's like it's a cell phone in some ways.

815
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a goal.

816
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 2: And just to close the loop on the whole podcast patentrol.

817
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: It was back in twenty thirteen and the company h

818
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 2: was Personal Audio LLC, and they sued Adam Carolla and

819
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 2: named a bunch of co defendants in the in the

820
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 2: In the suit again including how stuff works, they claim

821
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: that the podcasters podcasters in general infringed on the US

822
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: patent eight dot one one two dot five of four,

823
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 2: which claims a system for disseminating media content in serialized

824
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 2: episodes aka every other form of media that's ever existed.

825
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: And I just think it's interesting because they were obviously

826
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: granted this patent, but it was determined after a challenge

827
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 2: to that patent that it was not valid. The Supreme

828
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: Court had to get involved. So it just goes to

829
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: show that perhaps all patents that are granted are not

830
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 2: necessarily worthy of receiving that designation.

831
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: Welcome to the United States. Everything's negotiable.

832
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 3: Stamp rubber stamp, rubber stand How.

833
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: Much money do you have, my friends, how much are

834
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: you willing to part with?

835
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 4: I will say after, like, you know, writing some briefs

836
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 4: looked at when you read constitutions and stuffer and by

837
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 4: other countries and then you read the United States one,

838
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 4: You're like, right, this country was built by lawyers. Yes, yeah,

839
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 4: it's not a bad thing nor good thing.

840
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 3: It's just a thing.

841
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 2: Well, there's just a lot of vague language, you know,

842
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 2: in the damn Constitution.

843
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 3: That's why there are so many divisive.

844
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 2: Points and people that are just like absolutely on opposite

845
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: ends of an issue because the language is not particularly.

846
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: Clear, and sometimes those folks are not arguing in good faith.

847
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: But we want to with this that Let's give a

848
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: shout out to our good friend aj Bahamas Jacobs. We

849
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: will never explain that street name the author of the

850
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: Year of Living constitutionally, wherein he finds out firsthand just

851
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: how vague the Constitution is and the brilliance of writing

852
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:22,760
Speaker 1: it in that manner.

853
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 3: This is why we.

854
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: Call it the American Experiment. Thanks also to our pal

855
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 1: super producer research associate for this episode, mister Max Williams.

856
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 1: Oh and shout out to Alex Williams. I can't believe

857
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: we have our own composer.

858
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 2: Indeed, and huge thanks to Christopher Hasiotis and Eves Jeff

859
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 2: Coates both here in spirit.

860
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: Yes, big big thanks to Rachel Big Spinach Lance, big

861
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: big thanks to our own patent troll, Jonathan Strickland. Aka

862
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: the Quister. We would love to hear your take on

863
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: the most ridiculous patents. We haven't gotten to it yet,

864
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: but it's on the way. You can always find us

865
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 1: on our Facebook page, Ridiculous Historians, and I'll see. I

866
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: don't know, man, it'd be cool to have a patent.

867
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: I just like the certification. I like, you know, I

868
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: just want the paperwork, to have it on my wall.

869
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 3: It would be cool.

870
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 2: I guess people probably frame them, right, Like, if you

871
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 2: always hear about folks that have like multiple patents under

872
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 2: their belt, I'm sure in their little home offices they've

873
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:22,760
Speaker 2: got those things framed.

874
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 3: That'd be pretty cool. I agree, and that spirit. We'll

875
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:26,720
Speaker 3: see you next time, folks.

876
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

877
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.