1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: This is the business of sports where in the situation 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: that we haven't dealt with in modern times, pandemic here 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,479 Speaker 1: has really accelerated the investments that you've been advocating for 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: for years. From a macro standpoint, I think our sport 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: industry is really forced to look at the business a 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: little bit differently. In depth conversations with the leaders in 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: the sports industry. Who wants to be the sacrificial lambs 8 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: that shows up at the first big major sporting event, 9 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: were part of something much bigger than the sports right 10 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: now and the health and safety of our stakeholders that 11 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: works much important every moment. I think we're all from 12 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: the business respective thinking about the impact that the virus 13 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: is having across the country. In Bloomberg Business of Sports 14 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: from Bloomberg Radio, everyone, I'm Jason Kelly, and I'm Mike 15 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: Lynch and I'm Michael Barr And this is the Bloomberg 16 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: Business of Sports podcast where we explore the big money 17 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: issues in the world of sports. All right, pull up 18 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: your pod, pull up your radio, settle in. This is 19 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: going to be one of my favorite editions of this show. 20 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: Today we're joined by journalist Jesse Washington. He was the 21 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: author of the late John Thompson's autobiography. It's called I 22 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: Came as a Shadow, an autobiography, and I'm just gonna 23 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: lay it all out here from the beginning. Jesse. First 24 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: of all, really good to have you with us. Thank 25 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: you for doing this. I appreciate being here, man, Thank 26 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: you all right. So I'm Ahoya. I went to Georgetown. 27 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: I was a sports editor at the Georgetown Voice. I 28 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: interacted a lot as a student journalist with John Thompson, 29 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: my brother, my wife, his wife all went to Georgetown. 30 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: And actually I got this book You'll be happy to know, Jesse, 31 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: as a Christmas present from my sister in law Lauren 32 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: and my brother Wyn. So, uh, tip of the hat 33 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: to them. And my sister in law was funny because 34 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: she said to me, she said, I have to confess, 35 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: as I'm giving you this book, I've read about half 36 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: of it, like before I wrapped it. Uh. And she 37 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: was so enthralled she subsequently bought her own copy and 38 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: finished it. It's a phenomenal book, and it's a book 39 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: about much more than basketball and Kiddlely, much more then 40 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: John Thompson's life. This is a book about sports. This 41 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: is a book about college. This is a book really 42 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: about race in American many ways. Let's go back to 43 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: the beginning. How did you get interested in this and 44 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: how did you get involved? Well, I've always been interested 45 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: in Coach Thompson because I grew up watching the early 46 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: Big East. I grew up rooting for Georgetown. You know, 47 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: I'm a black man who loves basketball, so of course 48 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: I love the Georgetown University and Coach Thompson. And then 49 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: he was looking for someone to write his life story. 50 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: I believe his children are the ones who convinced them 51 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: that it was finally time to do it. And I 52 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: was one of a pool of writers that he was considering, 53 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: and I came away with the gig. You wrote something 54 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: in the introduction that caught my eyes that when you 55 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: sat down the first time, and you know, usually how 56 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: you doing coach and this and that, and you said 57 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: it was none of that. It was like, Okay, start 58 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: the recorder, let's go, let's hit it. And he just 59 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: told story after story, a the story. Can you can 60 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: you relate more about that? Sure? So once I got 61 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: the job, we made an appointment to sit down for 62 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: our first work session, and I believe he was really 63 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: testing me to keep see if I could keep up, 64 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: and there were no pleasantries. There wasn't like, oh, how 65 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: are you doing, Jesse? So how are your kids doing? 66 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: The weather is nice outside today? Huh um. You know. 67 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: We turned on the recorder and he just started going, 68 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: and he was putting out a lot of things that 69 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: were important to him about the book, so I could 70 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: get a sense of how his mind works. He liked 71 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: to jump around from topic to topic and re associate things, 72 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: but he wasn't really interested in talking about Okay, when 73 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: I beat St. John's in the garden, I used this 74 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: strategy and I doubled down. You know. He never used 75 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: the words pinned down, screen or double you know, like 76 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: anything like that in our conversation. It was bigger themes education, justice, 77 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, helping young people, um black right. These are 78 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: the things that weren't wortant to him, and he wanted 79 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: to talk about those things. So the first time we 80 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: sat down and he just started going, I kept up. 81 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: I did have some questions, which he appreciated, and as 82 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: time went on, the first thing that we would always 83 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: say when we sat down, he would say, Okay, Jesse, 84 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: what do you have for me today? And then I 85 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: would try to get you know, give him some a 86 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: prompt and then we would get into it. Man, it 87 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: was an incredible experience. This almost sounds like he is 88 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: the interviewer and you're the interviewee when you were writing 89 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: this book. Well, sometimes it was, but more often as 90 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: it went on. Once once I understood the themes that 91 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: he wanted to talk about, we had to figure out 92 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: how to shape that into a narrative, into a beginning 93 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: to end story. And so he relied on me to 94 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: come up with particular sort of mile posts to talk about. Okay, 95 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: in seven this happened, tell me about this, and he 96 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: would connect it to the bigger themes that were important 97 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: to him. That was one of the words that he 98 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: used a lot. When we are talking about he would say, well, 99 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: this connects back to and then he would keep going. 100 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: You know, when we're talking about how he kept the 101 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: media out of practice and how he was protecting his players, 102 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: he say, well, this connects back to my sixth grade teacher, 103 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: Sonetta Wallace Jack and how she protected my feelings and 104 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: I was struggling in school, and so that was sort 105 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: of what he expected me to bring to the interviews. 106 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: Questions topics a timeline and then we would go from there. 107 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: So Jesse, you know from the beginning, this is obviously 108 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: a personal story, but it's also a socioeconomic story, and 109 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: it's a story of place. Help us understand how the 110 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: socio economics and the economics of Coach Thompson's family and 111 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: his upbringing really influenced how he looked at the world. 112 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: Oh man, that's the foundation of everything. You know. A 113 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: lot of times in this country we think that all 114 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: this racism is a thing of the past. What do 115 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: y'all complain about that was a long time ago. What 116 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: does that have to do with anything that's going on now? 117 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: And we overlooked that so many people who are still 118 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: with us grew up with legal segregation like Coach Thompson 119 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: did in the nation's capital, Washington, d C. This man 120 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: could practically see the White House from his from where 121 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: he lived in Anacostia, and he grew up in jim Crow. 122 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: He was born in n and in the forties and fifties, Washington, 123 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: D C. Was segregate. He would try to go places 124 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: and wouldn't be allowed to sit at the counter to eat. 125 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: In high school, he was not allowed to play in 126 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: the best Thumber League tournaments because they were segregated. So 127 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: his mother was a trained college educated teacher, but could 128 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: not get work in her profession, so she had to 129 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: clean houses. And his father grew up in Maryland, which 130 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: was a Jim Crow state, and he could not read 131 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: a write because when he was a young man, a 132 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: young boy, rather he had to go to work in 133 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: the fields instead of going to school. So he grew 134 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: up in poverty in the projects. But he said, I 135 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: never felt deprived of anything because my parents provided me 136 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: with a sense of love and security and everything that 137 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: I could want. But then the real key thing with Coach, 138 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: and this is indicative of how he thought about things. 139 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: He said, I knew what not to want. Also, I 140 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: knew not to want a new pair of shoes until 141 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: I had a hole in the ones I had at 142 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: the time, and so on and so forth. And so 143 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: he grew up in an era of segregation, of poverty, 144 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: and of being told that he was less than in 145 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: many ways. And one of the formative experiences of his 146 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: book is when they went to church, and the Catholic 147 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: church down to Maryland, and the black people had to 148 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: sit in the back. They had to take communion second, 149 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: and this experience never left him, you know, so a 150 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: number of things never left him. And this really formed 151 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: the basis of his worldview. Not that he could not forgive, 152 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: because he was happy to forgive, and he made many 153 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: meaningful white relationships. But he said Jesus told us to forgive. 154 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: He never told us to forget. The name of the 155 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: book I came as Sharon. How did you come up 156 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: with that name? Thank you for asking, because the name, 157 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: to me is one of the most wonderful and symbolic 158 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: parts of the book. It was suggested by his daughter Tiffany, 159 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: who was a teacher herself and coach. Thompson had an 160 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: uncle by the name of Louis Grandison Alexander, and when 161 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: he was growing up in d C. In the forties 162 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: and fifties, the only black people he saw celebrated and 163 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: praised and getting famous were athletes who could run or 164 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: jump or knock people out. Boxing was big at the time. 165 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 1: His uncle was a poet and he was the first 166 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: person that coached Thompson. Little John, ever saw being praised 167 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: and celebrated for using his mind. So that made a 168 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: big impression on him. And when we started working on 169 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: the book. All of a sudden, one day, Coach Thompson 170 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: just up and recited a poem and like he was 171 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: moving so fast and I'm trying to keep up, and 172 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: then he just recited to pall. I'm like, huh, okay, 173 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, add that to the list of things that 174 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: you would not expect Coach Thompson to be doing, because 175 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: he was very you know, it was he was much 176 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: different than the public perceps. So he recited the poem 177 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: and then maybe a couple of days later, he said 178 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: it again and he mentioned his uncle. And it's a 179 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: beautiful poem about a shadow that comes and there's an 180 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: air of fear with the shadow initially, but then the 181 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: shadow ends up illuminating, uh to quote the poet to 182 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: dazzle your Knight. And I was like, wow, Coach, you 183 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: identify with that shadow, don't you? And he said, yeah, blank, 184 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: and right I do. And and so it's the it's 185 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: the title of a poem written by his uncle, and 186 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: Coach Thompson identifies with the shadow. Wow, that's spectacular. At 187 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: one line in the book here, Jesse, I never had 188 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: the luxury of just being a basketball coach. What do 189 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: you mean by that? Wow? UM coach Thompson would say, 190 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: that's good reading right there, boy, because you picked up 191 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: on something that's very important to him. The things he 192 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: had to deal with with a coach were more than 193 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: your average white coach, you know. And his dear friend 194 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: and mentor, Dean Smith taught him early in his career 195 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: that your successor failure se of the things you do 196 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: as a coach have nothing to do with basketball, but 197 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: those are going to influence whether you win or lose. 198 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: So for coach Thompson, he had to deal with racism. 199 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: He had to be accused, He had to deal with 200 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: being falsely accused of being a racist. He had to 201 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: be deal with resistance from within his institution to the 202 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: concept of having a black coat. He had to deal 203 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: with so many other issues, uh, you know, drug dealers, 204 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: infamously dealing with his program, associating with his players. All 205 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: of these issues that he had to deal with took 206 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: away from his focus and attention on basketball. And so 207 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: that's what he meant when he said, I never had 208 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: the luxury as a black coach in America coming up 209 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: as one of the first black coaches in college sports 210 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: at a white university. He had to deal with so 211 00:10:55,440 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: many other things that that really um competed with his 212 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: attention to basketball. However, what he said after that, which 213 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: was equally as important, is but I wouldn't have been 214 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: satisfied any other way. I needed something meaningful to fight 215 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: over and fuss about. So he was really made for that. 216 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: You know, somebody had to break that barrier that he 217 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: did and paid the way for other black coaches, and 218 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: it had to be somebody who relished that challenge. He said, 219 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: the fight gave me strength to keep going. So even 220 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: though he never had the luxury of only being a 221 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: basketball coach, he really craved that extra challenge to go 222 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: to extra mile and really to help up with black 223 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: people and Jesse, I want to build on that a 224 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: little bit. And as an aside, one of the interesting 225 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: things when I hear you talk is is anybody who 226 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: spent any time around coach Thompson, what are the word 227 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: one of those little words that he used to use 228 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: that we're almost like an achronistic as fuss. He would 229 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: use the word fuss a lot, which is just which 230 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: I more associate with my like you know, late grandmother 231 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: from Betton Route. You know, like there's just this he 232 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: had these funny little uh verbal anachronisms. But you know, 233 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: to your point about you know, going beyond the floor. 234 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: One of the things you talked about a lot in 235 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: the book, and coach talks about a lot in the 236 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: book is the relationship with his players, but specifically preparing 237 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: them for life, which is not a given in many ways. 238 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: And and he writes about you guys, write about this 239 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: notion of you know, making more money sitting down than 240 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: standing up. And and the educational piece of this, which 241 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: was you know, embedded in the in the controversy that 242 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: he willingly or unwittingly generated over time, help us understand 243 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: that sort of positioning of his players for what came 244 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: after school. That's a great question and one of the 245 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: most remarkable things about Coach Thompson. So his players have 246 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: told me that they would be in practice and he 247 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: might yell at the for for messing up a play, 248 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: or he might stop practice and say, hey, ask a 249 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: player what happened in he ron today, and then he 250 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: would set them down on the sidelines and they would 251 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: talk about current event. Michael Jackson said that he sat 252 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: them down on Martin Luther King Day and gave a 253 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: two hour lecture at least two hours about the differences 254 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: between Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. So he really 255 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: cared about educating his players. And I think that a 256 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: lot of coaches care in the abstract, but it's time 257 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: to win and when and they naturally gravitate towards the 258 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: things that are going to help them win games and 259 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: have more success and make more money. Coach Thompson was 260 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: willing to put that to the side, and he gave 261 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: the greatest resource, as he describes in the book, which 262 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: is time, to making sure that his players were educated, 263 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: to talking to them about important things, to insisting that 264 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: they go to class. He would not tolerate it if 265 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: you didn't go to class. He would not tolerated if 266 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: you didn't do your work. And he put his money 267 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: where his mouth was in terms of he would sit 268 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: kids out of games if they were academically struggling when 269 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: it would hurt his chances to win, you know, which 270 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: is you rarely, if ever, would see any coaches doing 271 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: that at the highest level of college sports right now. 272 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: So I think those things really speak to his his 273 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: determination to educate these kids. And you know, he says 274 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: in the book, I really wanted to be a teacher. 275 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: I had no intention of being a coach. I wanted 276 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: to work with young people. His mom was a teacher. 277 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: He grew up in Boys Club Number two and d 278 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: see what men who were counseling you, trying to help 279 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: you in life more than win a game. And so 280 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: he was deeply influenced by so many of these teachers 281 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: and others that I'm you know that we don't have 282 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: time to go into and he wanted to do that, 283 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,119 Speaker 1: and he determined early on, oh, if I coach basketball, 284 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: I can intermingle that with my counseling, and this way 285 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: I can help kids to succeed. And so that was 286 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: his mission in life, and he did it to the 287 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: detriment of winning sometimes. I mean, he would have won 288 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: back to back Chance Beingships almost certainly had he not 289 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: expelled Michael Graham from Georgetown. You know, the school tried 290 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: to convince it to bring him back. He said. The 291 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: president of the university was like, no, bring him back. 292 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: We just won a national championship. We're trying to win 293 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: get another one. Do you think Michael Graham couldn't have 294 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: helped them beat Villanova? Of course he could have, so rather, 295 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: so you know, these are some of the ways that 296 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: he really set himself apart. Coach Thompson is the only 297 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: great coach who is known for things beyond basketball. I 298 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: want to go back to a story you said about 299 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: Coach Thompson and he wouldn't buy another pair of shoes 300 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: until he wore a hole in the old one. And 301 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: I think of a story about my parents. They grew 302 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: up in the twenties and in the thirties, and it's 303 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: just a simple thing about food. And I bring this 304 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: up today to the kids today. Uh, my kids and 305 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: I'm sure many others. Uh. You have a meal one 306 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: day and then the next day, it's like I don't 307 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: want leftovers, I want it fresh. And then I lost 308 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: my mind because my mom and dad had to make 309 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: things go and stretch stuff. And I think a lesson 310 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: that kids can learn today through Coach Thompson is don't waste. 311 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: There are a lot of people out there who who 312 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: are looking form you, who are looking for a pair 313 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: of shoes. And in all this, you know, well I 314 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: wanted all fresh and stuff. Uh, you got to think first, man, 315 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: It's like, don't waste, and think of what Coach Thompson 316 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: would say, man, that is so accurate. And uh, I'm 317 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: in that same battle with my kids. Yet, just because 318 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: we have food here, there's a lot of people who don't. 319 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: So it's really like disrespectful too to everyone who has 320 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: less than us, if you're gonna throw away food. No, 321 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: we don't throw away food. I mean Coach Thompson said 322 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: he never knew you could have more than one slice 323 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: of bologna on a sandwich. He got to college. You know, 324 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: it was the concept was just foreign to him. Um. 325 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: You know, his his book provide a window into a 326 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: different era of life in America that is really not 327 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: as far as we think, and there really are a 328 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: lot of people still living under those conditions, even though 329 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: it may not be by law, but by you know, 330 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: by practice and by custom. It is still that same 331 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: situation that he grew up in. A lot of people 332 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: are living under that right now. And Coach Thompson will 333 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: be the first to say, until we can ensure equality 334 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: for the least of us, for those who have the least, 335 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: then you know, what does this really mean that we 336 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: have it? And so that whole thing about not wasting, 337 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: about valuing what you have, um about understanding the struggles 338 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: that our forefathers went through, and the people who who 339 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 1: mocked floors and and clean toilet and didn't learn how 340 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: to read. In order for us to be where we're 341 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 1: at right now, one living comfortably with access to all 342 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: these things. I mean, that's a really important lesson from 343 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: his book, Jesse, if I can, I want to build 344 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: on that real quick, because it gets to something that 345 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: really struck me in this book, and and in part 346 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: having gone to Georgetown and having you know, been there 347 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: for the Alan Iverson years and candidly the controversy that 348 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: surrounded Alan Iverson's arrival at Georgetown and all the editorials 349 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: and all the handwringing and things like that, I want 350 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: you to talk about if you can coach Thompson's view 351 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:43,719 Speaker 1: of providing an opportunity for kids who, on paper and 352 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: based on S. A T. Scores or grades or whatever, 353 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't have otherwise gone to specifically Georgetown, because the way 354 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: that you guys explained it in the book I think 355 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: is incredibly illuminating in terms of opportunity and educational opportunity 356 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: leading up to college, which he himself experienced. And he 357 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: referenced one of his early teachers who essentially enabled him 358 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 1: to go from being functionally illiterate to then going to college. 359 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: Walk us through that. Yeah, I'm so glad you asked, 360 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: and and like, you know, fair warning, I'm going to 361 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: get emotional here and I'm gonna get a little angry 362 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:30,239 Speaker 1: because it's so infuriating how people today still look at 363 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: as if an s A T SCOREPS defines your worth 364 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: as a person, As if there's not thousands and thousands 365 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: of really intelligent young people in our schools who could 366 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: live tremendously productive lives, but they're overlooked because we think 367 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: they're stupid. And the majority of these kids are black, 368 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: and we think they're stupid because of a number and 369 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: for which they've never been prepared. They don't have an 370 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: equal education, you know. I mean, the biggest predictor of 371 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: your sixth s on the of your score on the 372 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: S A T is your parents income. So do we 373 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: really believe that rich people are smarter than poor people? No, 374 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: So this gets to the real root of what coach 375 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: Thompson was saying. Um, he said, we don't have an 376 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: equal system of secondary education in America. Poor people don't 377 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: have access to the same quality of education and so 378 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: then the s A T is not an equal measure 379 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: of or even your high school grades really are not 380 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: an equal measure of your ability. So he was willing 381 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: to look beyond that. He was willing to look at 382 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: a kid and say, does this kid have intelligence? Can 383 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: they succeed in the university environment? And then he was 384 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: willing to give him a chance. He also is very 385 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: transparent about his motives, and Coach Thompson says, hey, I 386 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: wasn't trying to look deeper into a kid who was 387 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: slow and couldn't jumped, like I was trying to help kids. 388 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: It would help me win basketball games, but they still 389 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: deserve help. And here's another thing. You know, I'm infuriated 390 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: by people. I know, people who hated coach Thompson because 391 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: of the kids that he brought to Georgetown. And on 392 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: a deeper level, these people thought those black kids don't 393 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: deserve to be there. I deserve to be there, My 394 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: kids deserve to be there, not these quote unquote thugs. 395 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: Now you know, the whole thugs thing about them being 396 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: thugs when when they weren't committing any crimes as a 397 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: whole another level of racisms. But we'll we'll stick to 398 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: the academic portion, you know. And and so you know, 399 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: another thing that coach Thompson said, which was really powerful 400 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: in his book, is do we think that that is 401 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: the mission of a university like Georgetown only to educate 402 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: people who are ready are well educated? You know? And 403 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: that's what happens in these schools. I mean, Hey, I 404 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: went to Yale University, Okay, and so I'm familiar with 405 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: how privilege rolls over onto privilege and his perpetuated generation 406 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: to generation people get locked out. Are we trying to 407 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: open that up and get an opportunity to some other 408 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: people who come from poor background, such as myself who 409 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: came from the project, you know. And so what Coach 410 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 1: Thompson was doing was really providing the definition of equal 411 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: opportunity in America. And if we really think that we 412 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: all deserve an equal opportunity, regardless of our race or 413 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: our socio economic background, then we would do well to 414 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: look at the example that Coach Thompson said, And hey, 415 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: he made some mistakes. Sometimes you bring a kid in 416 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: who isn't good enough, you know, that doesn't mean that 417 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: they didn't deserve the opportunity. That just means that they 418 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: lost it. There's plenty of rich white kids who plunked 419 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: out of these schools too, So you know, Um, I 420 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: could go on, I'll calm down and stop there. But 421 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: I think that that is one of the most powerful 422 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: messages of his book is how do we hand out 423 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: opportunity in America? Just? Um, what do you think he 424 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: was most proud of? You know, he's got NBA's got 425 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,239 Speaker 1: Hall of Famers, he got a national championship, But I 426 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: think at his core, I won't be surprised that your answer, 427 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: but what was he most proud of? In your opinion, 428 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: that he spoke up, that he that he he did 429 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: things that would help advance the rights of disadvantaged people. 430 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: Um and uh. I think and he wouldn't say this 431 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: because he was very modest and never wanted to talk 432 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: about his own accomplishment. But I think that one of 433 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: the things he was privately most proud of was that 434 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: he showed that black people could succeed through intelligence. And 435 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: that's what the big deal about him winning the championship was. Yeah, 436 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: he won championships in the n b A, you know, 437 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: physically to do it at Georgetown, by using his mind 438 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: and by coaching meant more to him. You know, he said, 439 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to prove to black people that we could 440 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: kick down the door that existed with us intellectually and 441 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: so um, I think that that would be one of 442 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: the things he was most proud of too. I mean, 443 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: he lived such an extraordinary life. He had so many things, um, 444 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: so it's hard to just limit it. I mean, you 445 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: look at some of his graduates and the things that 446 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: they've accomplished in life. As he says in his book, 447 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: I got guys who I love dearly and who did 448 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 1: more than people who made it to the NBA. You know, 449 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: people who you've never heard of, who weren't great players. 450 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: Those are the things that really made him proud to 451 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: see people making a difference in the world, um, with 452 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: their minds. But of course he made the biggest difference 453 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: out of all the people that came through under him 454 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: at Georgetown, Jesse. You know, what are the interesting things 455 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: that that he goes into in the book, that you 456 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: guys go into in the book is is something that 457 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 1: I feel like we take for granted now, and that 458 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: is the big money and the endorsements and all of 459 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: that that are now in sports, and specifically his relationship 460 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: with Nike. I have to say, I was not aware 461 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: until I read the book of the trailblazing nature of that, 462 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 1: his relationship with Phil Knight and and the back and 463 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: forth that the had his you know, endorsement deal essentially 464 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: with Nike. Talk about the importance of that, if you will. Yeah, 465 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: I didn't know either until he told me. I mean, 466 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: this man was on the board of directors of Nike. 467 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: He got there when it was very rare for black 468 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: people to get on corporate board. It's still rare, you know, 469 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: But that's another story, you know. So his relationship with 470 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: Nike began very early when Nike was not even hadn't 471 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: even gone public, and he was hired as you know, 472 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: when they started going around hiring coaches to represent their brands. 473 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: But coach Thompson liked money, you know. He said in 474 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: the beginning of his book, Hey, I always had some 475 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: sort of little hustle job. Money was something I was 476 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: never reluctant to get. And he was not embarrassed about 477 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: saying I want to be rich. That is a direct quote, 478 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: you know. So um, But at the same time, he 479 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: wanted to stand for something he and Nike had and 480 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: Phil Knight had something in common. They were rebels. They 481 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: like to go against the grain. They weren't afraid to 482 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: do something unpopular if they thought it was right. And 483 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,959 Speaker 1: so that partnership, that collaboration really grew over the years. 484 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: And um, you know, the Nike chapter in the book 485 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: is one of the most fascinating. He helped make Nike 486 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: the company that it is today. And before Air Jordan's, 487 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: before the first Air Jordans came out, Georgetown's championship basketball 488 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: team wore Nikes, and I can tell you, as a 489 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: teenager at that time, I would have rather had a 490 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: pair of those shoes than uh than you know, stocks, bonds, 491 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: cash money, you know whatever, you know, gold bars. I mean, 492 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: those shoes were it. And it was the attitude, the swagger, 493 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: you know, the aura of Georgetown's team and those Nikes 494 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: and those those Nikes that they wore that carried over 495 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: to the company and built the image of Nike that 496 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: is today. So coach Thompson says in this book, Yeah, 497 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: Air Jordan did, you know, probably more than anything. And 498 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,239 Speaker 1: I really had to squeeze this part out of him. 499 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: You know, he didn't really want to dwell on it 500 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: that much, but they had such a huge impact on 501 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: the development of Nike's image and Coach specifically, and when 502 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,479 Speaker 1: Coach was getting in trouble and people were challenging him, 503 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: Nike stood behind him number one because Phil Knight knew 504 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: what kind of person he was. The number two because 505 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: he recognized it was good for business. You know. Georgetown 506 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: was like representing the counterculture and black culture in a 507 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: way that was very new in the eighties. Hip hop 508 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: was not embraced at all like it is today. Hip 509 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: hop was like Georgetown. It was outcast. It was like, oh, 510 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: look at what them and words over there doing, you 511 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: know so. So he had a huge role in that, 512 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: and as time went on, he remained on the night 513 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: and board. At the mandatory retirement age, Phil Knight refused 514 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: to accept his retirement and kept him off UM and 515 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: he played a very major role in the company. According 516 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: to what Phil Knight says, according to what people like UM. 517 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: You know, all of the other illustrious board members that 518 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: they have over there. The leaders of the biggest and 519 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: best companies in America were his colleagues and relied on 520 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: Coach Thompson for wisdom and understanding that went beyond sports. 521 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: But he didn't toot his horn about that, you know, 522 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: here's the here's the I'll finish this little section with 523 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: a story about how low key he was. We were 524 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: setting up a meeting for the you know, the following week, 525 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: and I asked about Thursday, and Coach said, oh, I 526 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: have to go out to the Nike to you know, 527 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: to a board meeting, so I can't meet Thursday. And 528 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: I was just sort of making conversations. I was like, oh, 529 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: you know, how's that trial for you? Coach? You know, 530 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: he was getting a little harder for him to move around. 531 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: He was getting up there, and he just said, oh, 532 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: they send the jet and then went all the day. Okay, coach, 533 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: you know what did the kids call that a flex? Yeah, 534 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: that's a flex. I got to bring this up, and 535 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: I know we're getting short on time here, but it 536 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: jumped out when I read it. And he said there 537 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: was a quote by Mahatma Gandhi that affected him deeply, 538 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: and the quote was freedom is not worth having if 539 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: it does not include the freedom to make mistakes. In 540 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: other words, to be truly free, we must have the 541 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: freedom not to be successful too. Can you expand more 542 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: on that? Because that jumped out boom when I when 543 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: I read that in the book. Absolutely. You know, coach 544 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: had this off angle way of looking at things in 545 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: the world, and he was that's how his mind works. 546 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: He would look at things from several angles at one 547 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: so you know, one person would say, oh, yeah, this 548 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: is a great black foods have the opportunity to be successful. 549 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: Look at all these successful black people. He was like, no, 550 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: and he would quote Gandhi. Real success is when we 551 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: cannot succeed and still have opportunity, like so many white 552 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: people get. You know, true freedom is the is the 553 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: opportunity to not be successful. And what he meant was, Okay, 554 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: if a black coach gets fired from this school over here, 555 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: are they going to get another shot after that? You know, 556 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: It's some of what we're looking at in the NFL 557 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: right now with all the controversy about the lack of 558 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: opportunity for black coaches. There's several black coaches, uh, you know, 559 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: coordinators in the championship games and then Super Bowl coming up. 560 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: Now who have you know, maybe they got fired in 561 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: another spot and people are saying, oh, well, they got fired, 562 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: so that's why they're not getting any opportunity. Hey, Bill 563 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: Belichick got fired in Cleveland and he got another opportunity. 564 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: Bill Belichick had the opportunity to succeed. He had the 565 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: he had the chance to not be successful and then 566 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: to still achieve success. So it's a it's a interesting 567 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: and different perspective on what true equality is. We will 568 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: truly be equal when we can fail and still be okay, 569 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: because that's the American way, that's the American is supposed 570 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: to be the land of second chances. Coach Thompson understood, Hey, 571 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: if I got to Georgetown and I didn't win, I 572 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: had one dance to get it right. And if I 573 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: didn't get it right, then the other black coach, the 574 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: next black coach, isn't going to get higher. So he's 575 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: trying to get past that point. I don't think we've 576 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: got there yet. Tell me about the deflated basketball that 577 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: sits in his office. I think our listeners would love 578 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: to hear this. Oh yeah, this is a famous metaphor 579 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: that coach Thompson had where he had an empty, you know, 580 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: a ball with a dent in it, and it's sat 581 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: in his office for his whole career. And what that 582 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: symbolized was, this is your future. The ball will not 583 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: be bouncing for you for very much longer, or if 584 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: you're really lucky, it'll bounce for another ten or twenty 585 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: years and then you'll be forty years old. What are 586 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: you going to do? How are you going to make 587 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: a mark on the world with your mind? What difference 588 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: are you going to make in the world? Because look 589 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: at this basketball, this is you and everything's great. Now 590 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: you're getting all this attention and you're going to get 591 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: some money even perhaps with this basketball. But when it 592 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: stops bouncing, what's going to happen? You know? And it's funny. Now, 593 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: if you're around basketball like I am, it's almost a cliche. 594 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: All the kids will say, yeah, well, you know, the 595 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: ball is gonna stop bouncing. The ball is gonna stop 596 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: bouncing sometimes. That is something that coach Thompson brought into 597 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: the basketball culture and vernacular of make sure you educate 598 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: yourself so that when you can't play basketball anymore, you 599 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: will have something to contribute to the world. Um. One 600 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: of the things that he revealed in the book, which 601 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: I found strange, was that people wondered where he got 602 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: it from. And it was a gag gift from a 603 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: friend to his So, you know, when he left his 604 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: job to go coach at Georgetown. One of the people 605 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: who worked for him said, ha, ha, coach, you know, 606 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: here's a here's a flatball for you. You know, happy 607 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: trail um. And so that's where he got that famous 608 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: metaphor which stood for the importance of education. So, Jesse, 609 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: as we wrap up here, first of all, I could 610 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: just talk to you all day about this is you 611 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: can tell very invested in in this book. In this story, 612 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: I have to ask you about his relationship with George. 613 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about his relationship with Georgetown, 614 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,239 Speaker 1: and and I've been debating with myself like whether i 615 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: want you to reveal something that is at the end 616 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: of the book, because as someone who went to Georgetown, 617 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: it's incredibly powerful to understand that his relationship was not 618 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: just complicated during his tenure, but his family connection to 619 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: the eastern part of Maryland and the Jesuits connection to that. 620 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: I'm going very deep here, but it it makes you 621 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: look at him, and it makes you look at the 622 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: book and his story in an entirely different way. If 623 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: you can distill down the complicated relationship with Georgetown presidents 624 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: who backed him, presidents who didn't. At times they fired 625 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: his son. I mean this was I know this, this 626 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: is thrown around a lot. I mean, there's there's some 627 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: Shakespearean elements to to this relationship with with this university. Absolutely, 628 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: and um, let's not give away the ending, but I 629 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: think there's so much there anyway. And so what it 630 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: comes down to first is that Georgetown was deeply involved 631 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: in the institution of slavery in America. You know, George 632 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: Shown is one of the first universities in the country, 633 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: and from the very beginning the Jesuits had slaves and 634 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: used slaves to establish Georgetown. There would be no Georgetown 635 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: without slavery. And in eighteen thirty two, the university was 636 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: about to go under due to mounting debt, and they 637 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,439 Speaker 1: sold two hundred and thirty two black people in order 638 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: to survive, and they did. And so coach Thompson reflects 639 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: deeply upon that. And then the other parallel track is 640 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: that Georgetown in nineteen seventy two hired John Thompson because 641 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: they recognized they needed more black people at the university. 642 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: They wanted a black coach, and they went out and 643 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: found one. That there were riots over the assassinations of 644 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: black leaders. They looked around in Washington and said, Hey, 645 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: we're a white university of lily white university in an 646 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: all black city. We're not living up to our responsibility 647 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: as university, as Christians. We're falling short. We need to 648 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: do better. And they went and hired John Thompson. Now 649 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: they had no idea who they were really getting. And 650 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: then over the years that the relationship was difficult, and 651 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,919 Speaker 1: in the book, Coach Thompson says, and you could sort 652 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: of sum it up with this statement of his I 653 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: will always love Georgetown, but I'm not going to let 654 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: them off the hook either. And Coach had a tremendous 655 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: ability to see all sides of the situation. So there 656 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: were problems with the relationship, and there were great parts 657 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: of the relationship. Several of the university presidents backed him 658 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: to the fullest and allowed him to be him and 659 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: never told him to sit down and shut up. And 660 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: he probably would have gotten fired by other people for 661 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: some of the ways he spoke out. But then there 662 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: were other very racist elements within the school that he 663 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: had to content with and that hurt him deeply. And 664 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: he said, I didn't feel at home at Georgetown, truly 665 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: at home, until years after I won the national Championship. 666 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,439 Speaker 1: So you've got this long relationship with Georgetown and black 667 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: people that goes back century with UH, Coach Thompson and 668 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 1: Georgetown that goes back to the seventies. And it really 669 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: culminates at the end of the book with a remarkable 670 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: revelation about Coach and his family history that um I 671 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: was quite surprised about and provides a really emotional ending 672 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: to the book. It absolutely does, and I'm glad we 673 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: didn't spoil it because for anyone who reads it, and 674 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: I cannot recommend this book more highly, whether you care 675 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: about basketball, whether you care about Georgetown, if you care 676 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: about humanity. I mean, this is a story. It's a 677 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,439 Speaker 1: story for our time. And I'm so grateful to you 678 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 1: Jesse for writing it and for joining us, because I 679 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: thoroughly enjoyed this. I've been looking forward to it and 680 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: UH and and really grateful to you for for spending 681 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: some time with us. Thank you, Thank you, Jason. And 682 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 1: I do want to say thank you to Coach Thompson 683 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: because it would have been easy for him to fade 684 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: off into the sunset without speaking his mind and without 685 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: telling his story, and parts of it were painful for 686 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: him to tell. And to relive. But I'm so glad 687 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: that he chose to reveal this part of his experiences 688 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: in his life because I think there's a lot that 689 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 1: we can all learn from it, way beyond basketball. So 690 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: thanks for having me. You've got Thank you, Jesse. This 691 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: is the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast and Michael Barr. 692 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Big Bar Sports. 693 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: And now Mike Lynch you can follow me at Lynch 694 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: e w CVB. And I'm Jason Kelly. Follow me at 695 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: Jason Kelly News. We're here each and every Monday, Wednesday 696 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: and Thursday exploring the world of money in sports. You're 697 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg Business of Sports on Bloomberg Radio around 698 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: the world and online wherever you get your podcasts.