Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: If you've been on social media anywhere really over the
Speaker 2: past few years, then you've definitely seen her videos.
Speaker 3: Even before Kim Kardashian had kids, she was putting money
Speaker 3: away in the five twenty nine for their education and retirement.
Speaker 3: And Missus Noah Jones, your fave personal finance expert. Here's
Speaker 3: why rich people love five twenty nine plans and you
Speaker 3: should too. A five to twenty nine plan is a
Speaker 3: tax advantage investment account for future education costs. By contributing
Speaker 3: to one, you'll likely get tax seductions, and credits.
Speaker 2: Kim Kardashian in five twenty nine plans. That's the gift
Speaker 2: of Missus Dow Jones, also known as Hailey Sacks. She's
Speaker 2: the author of Future Rich Person, The New Rules for
Speaker 2: Building Wealth Even if You're stuck broke and that billionaire
Speaker 2: will not text you back. Also the host of the
Speaker 2: Financial Tea podcast Hailey Sacks.
Speaker 4: Welcome, So excited to be here.
Speaker 2: Can I just say, like this is not about me,
Speaker 2: but like I know you back.
Speaker 4: When we really did cheddar, those were.
Speaker 2: The days of the day. Just now I know and
Speaker 2: you know you were you joined me on the floor
Speaker 2: the New York Sact Exchange like a million years ago,
Speaker 2: and all the traders were like, missus dow Jones, is
Speaker 2: there The question that I have for you is very
Speaker 2: bloomberg question. Okay, Uh, the Dow Jones industrial average these
Speaker 2: days doesn't get a lot of love.
Speaker 1: Yes, I know, missus S and P five hundred doesn't
Speaker 1: have the same I know, how did you come up
Speaker 1: with the name that has stuck for so many years?
Speaker 5: You know, I always thought that Missus dow Jones was
Speaker 5: about like being married to your own financial freedom and
Speaker 5: your future, and that really comes from investing. But when
Speaker 5: I created the moniker, I didn't think at all about.
Speaker 4: Like the legal implications of it. I was just like,
Speaker 4: this sounds fun.
Speaker 5: But you know, I didn't think about the fact that,
Speaker 5: like it's the Dow Jones, Like you don't really want
Speaker 5: to mess with Rupert Murdoch. They've been very kind to me,
Speaker 5: I want to say, but you know it could have
Speaker 5: gone either way.
Speaker 2: You know, you've been doing this for a long time.
Speaker 2: I think even before the concept of the influenza, yes
Speaker 2: was a thing. Yes, did you ever think you could
Speaker 2: grow it into the business, the brand, the book, the
Speaker 2: podcast that you've grown it into.
Speaker 5: You know, I think that you always have that vision
Speaker 5: for yourself, but it has taken so much work. I've
Speaker 5: done this for nine years. And like when you said,
Speaker 5: when I started this, influencing wasn't a thing.
Speaker 4: Now you see all the.
Speaker 5: Data, Like, you know, kids all want to be influencers.
Speaker 5: It's this, you know, job that people aspire to. But
Speaker 5: it was something that I was doing on the side
Speaker 5: and pursuing really as a passion project. And so, I
Speaker 5: mean I always dreamed it wouldn't be coming here, but
Speaker 5: I didn't. I was I was betting on myself. I'm
Speaker 5: glad that we made it.
Speaker 4: What was it though, that made you?
Speaker 1: Because you studied film?
Speaker 4: I studied film, So tell me how you got to this?
Speaker 1: Yes, and like thought about because there's so many books,
Speaker 1: as you know, and so many advice channels out there
Speaker 1: when it comes to investing in your financial well being.
Speaker 1: So tell us how you kind of got there. What
Speaker 1: was it that you said, wait, there's something I can share,
Speaker 1: I can build and help others with.
Speaker 5: So I had such a weird path to finance. I
Speaker 5: was a comedian, so, like my first job was for
Speaker 5: David Letterman and then I was, which was a gig
Speaker 5: working job, and then I was, you know, working all
Speaker 5: these ten ninety nine jobs, trying to build my career
Speaker 5: as a comedian, and no one had ever taught me
Speaker 5: about money.
Speaker 4: I never learned it in school.
Speaker 5: And then I had this big break where I got
Speaker 5: a job for Lauren Michaels who started SNL and it
Speaker 5: was a full time job. And actually my the other
Speaker 5: person who got that same role is now on SNL.
Speaker 5: It's Ben Marshall, like the I don't know if you
Speaker 5: guys watch us, and now about the guy the red
Speaker 5: hair of course now big star now so happy for Ben,
Speaker 5: but like we were cohorts. But the first day of
Speaker 5: that job, I was so excited. I was like, yes,
Speaker 5: I finally made it. I'm like, you know, in corporate America,
Speaker 5: getting off the train at eight am, like this rocks.
Speaker 5: And they asked me, they had the audacity really to
Speaker 5: ask me about four O one case and health insurance
Speaker 5: and just all these things that no one had ever
Speaker 5: explained to me. And I was mortified because I didn't
Speaker 5: want to seem like, okay, they made a bad hire.
Speaker 5: And so then I went home that night as any
Speaker 5: self respecting like millennial would I think I probably stress
Speaker 5: ordered Thai food and was like googling all of these terms,
Speaker 5: and what I found was either information for women that
Speaker 5: was like so based in deprivation, Like you know, I
Speaker 5: literally read an article about rewashing your paper towels, about
Speaker 5: how you should never buy a pre cut vegetable from
Speaker 5: a grocery store.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, that's.
Speaker 5: Saved some time, Like you gotta money, Yeah, time is money,
Speaker 5: you know. Just no lattes, of course, no avocado toast,
Speaker 5: Like it just made your life seem like it had
Speaker 5: to be so small.
Speaker 1: It always like cut out the manicure.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, your life it's horrible.
Speaker 5: Or the information for men was about investing, but it
Speaker 5: was so jargon heavy and it was like just not
Speaker 5: presented in a way that I really could understand. And
Speaker 5: so I was eager to find someone who would make
Speaker 5: it like aspirational to grow health.
Speaker 4: I couldn't find her, Cybeccamer.
Speaker 2: So you saw you you saw that as an opportunity,
Speaker 2: But you don't just immediately put content out there and
Speaker 2: put yourself out there and realize that oh this works right. Yeah, No,
Speaker 2: there's an uphill battle here. Yeah, there is a time
Speaker 2: it takes to like understand what resonates with your audience.
Speaker 2: You have to build that audience.
Speaker 5: Not easy, not It's so funny being on the book tourks,
Speaker 5: I was looking back and like seeing when I was
Speaker 5: about to break nine thousand followers or twenty thousand or
Speaker 5: forty thousand, and I couldn't believe it. But it's also
Speaker 5: crazy how much social media has changed in that time
Speaker 5: because when I started, the way that finance was presented
Speaker 5: in like a humorous way on social media was through memes.
Speaker 4: And so I was.
Speaker 5: And the only one who's really left of that cohort
Speaker 5: is Liquidity, who still has a big presence, but there
Speaker 5: were like maybe six of us. Besides that he's stayed.
Speaker 5: Everyone else has, you know, sort of dissipated, but still memes,
Speaker 5: still memes exactly, and he's not really that public facing,
Speaker 5: but like he you know, has branched his business out
Speaker 5: in a lot of different ways. He's done really cool
Speaker 5: things with it. But you know, no and no one
Speaker 5: was showing their face. He only showed his face about
Speaker 5: like a year ago. And so I and this was
Speaker 5: before reels were a thing too. So I started to
Speaker 5: put up videos that I think were literally shot like
Speaker 5: horizontally on Instagram. It wasn't optimized for it at all.
Speaker 5: About these money topics, and that's where it sort of
Speaker 5: started from.
Speaker 1: How did you figure out though? Like there's so much
Speaker 1: stuff out there about you know, pay yourself, save money, Yeah,
Speaker 1: take advantage of you know, your employees for oh one
Speaker 1: K plan, Like how did you figure out? How do I,
Speaker 1: you know, learn about what really makes a difference, what
Speaker 1: makes sense because there's just so much again and what's proven,
Speaker 1: Like how did you figure that out?
Speaker 5: That's such a good question, Carol. I think that it
Speaker 5: really is about testing. Like, I mean, you guys are
Speaker 5: on air all the time too. I'm sure there's segments
Speaker 5: that go absolutely bananas that people really relate to, and
Speaker 5: then you use that data like I really learned that
Speaker 5: my audience loves to know about generational wealth. They want
Speaker 5: to know the secrets to that or you know, they
Speaker 5: want to know about how to optimize their benefits. They
Speaker 5: love to know about negotiating. But this is all because
Speaker 5: I've tried that content. And then there's a lot of
Speaker 5: content that you don't see that doesn't work. You know,
Speaker 5: influencing or making videos online is a day by day game.
Speaker 5: So it's literally like you're getting a scorecard every day
Speaker 5: and you can sort of use that and recalibrate.
Speaker 2: You've built this into a real business. I mean I
Speaker 2: saw in part of the book promotion, I saw you
Speaker 2: talk about how much money you're making. Yes, yes, can
Speaker 2: you share that that's a big number.
Speaker 5: Well, I never shared the exact figures, but it definitely
Speaker 5: is a seven figure business. And I think the coolest
Speaker 5: thing is that I'm able to employ really great people
Speaker 5: and you know, invest that back in the business and
Speaker 5: growing it. But I did share that I have brand
Speaker 5: deals that are over seven figures, which is pretty sick.
Speaker 5: I will I'm using the word sick on Bloomberg.
Speaker 4: I think I'm the first person to do that.
Speaker 1: But yet other four letter words not as easily as that.
Speaker 4: That's slaying for really cool.
Speaker 2: But like you said, it's a team.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's oh my gosh.
Speaker 5: And that's what's so funny about releasing a book too,
Speaker 5: is it's like it's my name on the book, but
Speaker 5: it's been so many people building it, so you really
Speaker 5: can't do anything on your own.
Speaker 1: So like, let's talk about what are what are some
Speaker 1: of the mistakes Like people do like I have to say,
Speaker 1: there's one thing, page one oh five emotional regulation, Like
Speaker 1: I do think about you know, if you can take
Speaker 1: the emotion out of money, I feel, oh is so important.
Speaker 5: So I'm not easy or even when you think about
Speaker 5: people in relationships with money, Like the whole reason that
Speaker 5: no one talks about money and relationships is because of
Speaker 5: the emotional aspect. But if you just take that down
Speaker 5: a notch and you look at it as like, oh,
Speaker 5: this is a business decision.
Speaker 4: That we're getting married. Of course you're going to get
Speaker 4: a prenap.
Speaker 5: Because every business agreement has a contract yeah to do it?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so do it get a prenup?
Speaker 1: No, because then it's very clear, right, yes, we know
Speaker 1: what the rules are going into it. But it's but
Speaker 1: I feel like money and how especially with couples or
Speaker 1: just how people spend or even in like a family,
Speaker 1: if you have siblings and you're older and you're doing
Speaker 1: a house or something together, like you just how somebody
Speaker 1: uses their money. You can make judgment calls and you
Speaker 1: have to be very careful because you can, you know,
Speaker 1: But I think why.
Speaker 2: What you identified so early and like it looks so
Speaker 2: simple and easy in hindsight to see this is that
Speaker 2: our generation is different than other generations, like student loan debt,
Speaker 2: the cost of buying a home for those kids in
Speaker 2: college right now, going and finding that first job, and
Speaker 2: dealing with AI, the AI challenges like this is and
Speaker 2: I feel like millennial personal finance is really having a
Speaker 2: moment right now. Maybe because we're all getting older. I
Speaker 2: don't know that's what it is, yes, Or because we're
Speaker 2: learning and everybody's learning that the classic stuff that we
Speaker 2: that our parents were told doesn't really work for us.
Speaker 5: That is such a good point, and that's sort of
Speaker 5: why I wrote the book it's called The New Roles
Speaker 5: of Building Wealth because you know, I read so many
Speaker 5: personal finance books. That's really how I educated myself to
Speaker 5: become missus dow Jones, like just.
Speaker 4: By reading so much. And although I love a lot of.
Speaker 5: Those books in the canon, what I always would recognize
Speaker 5: was the information that they were giving was so outdated.
Speaker 5: And I think what's so cool about being a financial
Speaker 5: influencer is that I'm able to get real time data
Speaker 5: from my followers. So it's like I'm reading this book
Speaker 5: and it's like in the canon and everyone's like, this
Speaker 5: is the finance book that you need to get rich,
Speaker 5: and then it's like I'm in my DMS and people
Speaker 5: are complaining because since two thousand, the cost of living
Speaker 5: has gone up sixty seven percent, but wages have gone
Speaker 5: up seven percent, or like you said, inflation, student debt,
Speaker 5: AI all these things, and so there needs to be
Speaker 5: new rules that meet us where we are at now.
Speaker 5: And that's why I wrote this book because I want
Speaker 5: it to be in the canon for the world that
Speaker 5: we're in.
Speaker 4: So, hey, let's.
Speaker 1: Talk about some of the rules. And so I'm just
Speaker 1: sharing our producer Talia sending like, if someone is starting
Speaker 1: at their first step, or they're deep in a hole
Speaker 1: with debt or don't have any savings, what is the
Speaker 1: first step you think someone should take to get their
Speaker 1: finances in order.
Speaker 5: So the first step I would really recommend, and it's
Speaker 5: not rocket science, We've heard it before, but you have
Speaker 5: to have that emergency fund, Like you've just got to
Speaker 5: get that. You got to really power through and get
Speaker 5: that three to six months in hild savings account, because
Speaker 5: even if you have high interest rate debt, you need
Speaker 5: to have the emergency fund because if you don't and
Speaker 5: you get into more debt, then you're just going to
Speaker 5: get deeper in the hole. So that's and it also
Speaker 5: builds a lot of self esteem, So that's always I
Speaker 5: would say, like the first step, you got to start there.
Speaker 2: What about if you have student loan debt and you
Speaker 2: want it, you want to try to get out of it,
Speaker 2: but you also want to try to save well.
Speaker 5: You know, something I talk about in the book is like,
Speaker 5: I think one of the old rules of building wealth
Speaker 5: is that all.
Speaker 4: Debt is bad, that we need to all be out
Speaker 4: of debt.
Speaker 5: But I mean, you guys talk to really rich people
Speaker 5: all day, you know, they love leverage, and so something
Speaker 5: that I explained in the book is leverage does help
Speaker 5: make some people wealthier and a big way. Yeah, no
Speaker 5: matter where you're at on the financial scale too. Like
Speaker 5: you could be someone who's you know, you're not a billionaire,
Speaker 5: but maybe you have student debt and it's below seven percent,
Speaker 5: which is sort of the threshold of low interest rate debt.
Speaker 5: That's something in the book that I would say, it's
Speaker 5: actually okay, let's just pay the minimum on it and
Speaker 5: use whatever action money, extra money that you have left
Speaker 5: over on these other financial goals, because you're going to
Speaker 5: be able to make more money than you would say
Speaker 5: paying that off aggressively.
Speaker 1: What are the most common pitfalls and mistakes you see
Speaker 1: people fall into.
Speaker 5: You know, I think in this age of frictionless spending,
Speaker 5: it's really hard to hold onto your money, like greed.
Speaker 5: My parents' generation, they were advertised to five hundred times
Speaker 5: a day, were advertised to five thousand times a day.
Speaker 5: Twenty percent of what you see online is an ad.
Speaker 5: And not only that you have Apple Pay on your
Speaker 5: phone and you're using it like Apple be paying, like
Speaker 5: you're just you know, tapping.
Speaker 4: And you're going, it's not money, it's just a tap.
Speaker 5: And it is this form of emotional regulation which I
Speaker 5: think comes also from the culture. Like you know, even
Speaker 5: when you think about Sex and the City and Carrie
Speaker 5: Bradshaw and she would always buy shoes instead of investing,
Speaker 5: and like, you know, all the cool female characters in
Speaker 5: the canon are bad with money. It's sort of you know, romanticized,
Speaker 5: and so I think that that's really what you have
Speaker 5: to work through.
Speaker 4: First.
Speaker 2: There's also a conversation happening about like the psychology of money,
Speaker 2: when when people are used to making a certain amount
Speaker 2: of money, they continue even if they make more money
Speaker 2: spending the same spending in the same way. So I'm
Speaker 2: curious about spending money. And if people suddenly come into
Speaker 2: disposable income, yeah, after working for a long time and
Speaker 2: living paycheck to paycheck.
Speaker 5: Like how they well there was actually did you see
Speaker 5: that graph from Goldman Sachs about people who are making
Speaker 5: three hundred to four hundred K.
Speaker 2: Yes, I've just heard about this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so great.
Speaker 2: They say they're living paycheck to paycheck.
Speaker 5: More than people who make seventy five to one hundred K.
Speaker 5: Because I think that it's so much of keeping up
Speaker 5: with the Joneses. When you get to that point you're like, oh,
Speaker 5: this is my paycheck. I guess we should do private school.
Speaker 5: Maybe we need two cars.
Speaker 2: I would say that those people are probably also saving
Speaker 2: very aggressively, so maybe they're living paycheck to paycheck, after
Speaker 2: investing in the emergency fund, after putting money aside in
Speaker 2: their four one ks in five to I would I
Speaker 2: would venture to say, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think it's all lifestyle creep.
Speaker 4: I think it's lifestyle creepy.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 5: I think that you have to be really careful and
Speaker 5: like what That's why I preach so much in the
Speaker 5: book about automation, It's like, I don't I wouldn't be
Speaker 5: a millionaire without automation. Like it's you need to be
Speaker 5: automated your finances. And when you've got an increase in
Speaker 5: your salary, the first thing that you should do is
Speaker 5: increase the amount that you're contributing because you won't feel
Speaker 5: it right. But then you're just going to have such
Speaker 5: a big difference.
Speaker 4: It's like it's I always think of my mom, like.
Speaker 1: Pay yourself first, if you just do it right off
Speaker 1: the tip and you just don't even miss it and
Speaker 1: you adjust to like what's the pot We are at Bloomberg,
Speaker 1: we check the market day to day. I'm just thinking
Speaker 1: about casual participants, folks who are just trying to understand
Speaker 1: the investing landscape.
Speaker 4: I have family who are not.
Speaker 1: Always will come up like what books should I read?
Speaker 1: What should I do? Is there anything that you regularly
Speaker 1: pay attention to when it comes to the financial markets
Speaker 1: and that you think maybe that's what people should check on,
Speaker 1: like what should they do to get an understanding?
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I I think that reading financial books
Speaker 5: is really important, Like that's a really great way to
Speaker 5: get but there's something very different about understanding the markets
Speaker 5: and being.
Speaker 4: Like good with money. Like in the book, it's I
Speaker 4: make it very clear that you don't need to be
Speaker 4: a genius.
Speaker 5: You really just need like seventh grade math and some
Speaker 5: index funds and some automation and you can get there
Speaker 5: and so. But you know, this is sort of a
Speaker 5: different flavor of person. Carol, you know, seems to be
Speaker 5: really interested in the markets. And which case, I'd say,
Speaker 5: you gotta watch Bloomberg. You know, I let me a
Speaker 5: little CNBC. I subscribe to a bunch of newsletters. I
Speaker 5: love the Wall Street Journal. Like you know, you have
Speaker 5: to you read the publications and you.
Speaker 4: You know, track it as you go.
Speaker 5: You have to make sure that you are getting your
Speaker 5: information from credible sources.
Speaker 2: Is social media a credible source?
Speaker 5: It is when you you have to be thoughtful of.
Speaker 5: Social media has been so amazing in terms of promoting
Speaker 5: financial literacy, and we're even seeing it with gen Z
Speaker 5: that they are putting more into their four o one
Speaker 5: case than any generation.
Speaker 4: And I have to.
Speaker 5: Point to social media as me, uh as the reason
Speaker 5: that that's happening, because they have education at their fingertips
Speaker 5: that no one else did.
Speaker 4: But they also have access to a lot of scams.
Speaker 2: Where do you see the best return on investment and content?
Speaker 2: Where where are the people? Where are people following you
Speaker 2: and engaging you with your content? Is it all Instagram?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 5: I Instagram is huge, Instagram's amazing. TikTok can go crazy,
Speaker 5: but like it's a very emotional process, Like they could
Speaker 5: just give you like no views, no views, no views,
Speaker 5: and then you're getting like three million.
Speaker 4: You're like, I'm big on two. It's really hard to
Speaker 4: understand on TikTok.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but like you know, Instagram is way more consistent
Speaker 5: and I feel like I'm actually able to reach my audience.
Speaker 5: But I also really believe just in good content, Like
Speaker 5: I'm not one of those creators who's ever going to
Speaker 5: be like the algorithm screwed me. Like if something isn't working,
Speaker 5: we're going to change it. Like I need to move
Speaker 5: with the times. Like I've been around for nine years.
Speaker 5: I want to be around for a long time, and
Speaker 5: that's just going to take a lot of flexibility, going
Speaker 5: where the eyeballs are and figuring out what's next.
Speaker 1: Hayley, what's the question you get asked most often when
Speaker 1: people of like know what you are you know what
Speaker 1: you do?
Speaker 4: What is your focus? What do you get asked the most?
Speaker 4: I mean probably like what to invest in? Really?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Specifically, yeah, what to invest in? Or how to negotiate?
Speaker 1: Do you tell people that they should own a house,
Speaker 1: That he's a good goal.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think that it can be an amazing
Speaker 5: lifestyle decision, but I don't think that it is the
Speaker 5: investment that like the American dream.
Speaker 1: You think renting makes more sense.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm a millionaire and I rent. Yeah, that's
Speaker 4: come on.
Speaker 5: But it's like if I had kids and like a family,
Speaker 5: and I really wanted to choose my door knobs, I
Speaker 5: might do it as just like an investment in my life,
Speaker 5: which I talk about in the book too. Like everything
Speaker 5: is about making money, you also need to leave room
Speaker 5: for lifestyle. But I think that this idea that you
Speaker 5: should make you the biggest investment of your life your
Speaker 5: house is not smart.
Speaker 2: Let's talk negotiating, because you I was thinking, you don't
Speaker 2: really have to negotiate your salary. Me. You don't know
Speaker 2: you have to negotiate these brand deals.
Speaker 4: Well, so I have a manager who does it for me.
Speaker 2: But you have negotiation tips in here to get a raise. Yes,
Speaker 2: oh well that right way to do that.
Speaker 5: So the first thing you need to do is have
Speaker 5: a wins folder, like I think people think at work
Speaker 5: that like their boss is just every day taking notes
Speaker 5: like wow, Carol, you did great today, Like I'm gonna
Speaker 5: write that down, like we're going to talk about that
Speaker 5: in your review.
Speaker 4: They're not. I'm sorry, you've gotta.
Speaker 2: I keep track of the opposite, Carol, there are none.
Speaker 2: That folder is empty. My sorry, please, you know what
Speaker 2: I'm saying.
Speaker 4: Could use that.
Speaker 5: You have to go in with a case around why
Speaker 5: you deserve more money.
Speaker 4: That's number one. And then you know.
Speaker 5: You've also got to make sure that you have a batana,
Speaker 5: which is the best alternative to a negotiated agreement, because
Speaker 5: if they come back and they say no, or they
Speaker 5: you know, push back, then you need to be able
Speaker 5: to say, okay, well I want to hire hire a
Speaker 5: higher title. I want to you know, work from home.
Speaker 5: More things like that.
Speaker 2: Page seventy two of the new book Maybe Future Rich Person,
Speaker 2: The New Rules for Building Wealth even if you're stuck
Speaker 2: broke and that billionaire won't text you back. Hailey Sachs
Speaker 2: is the author probably better known as missus dow Jones,
Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg,