WEBVTT - Raja Rajamannar 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:03.960 Welcome back to another episode of Big Money Energy where 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:06.840 we talked to super successful and self made people to 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.720 find out exactly how they did it, how they went 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:13.240 from nothing to something. Today I am joined by none 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:17.120 other than Raja Rajamana, CMO of MasterCard. We talked about 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.439 a lot of different things and let's get into it. 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:34.040 Welcome to another episode. Take me back to the beginning, 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:36.400 so for the audience and everyone that's watching and listening, 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:40.400 your story into like fortune, fortune five hundred, you know 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:42.920 the world to being the CMO of MasterCard, which is 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.200 just nuts. You don't wake up one day and say mom, 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:47.919 this is what I want to do. You initially went 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:51.240 to school for chemical engineering and now you're in marketing, 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.200 so clearly there was there wasn't a book on that. 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.520 So take me back to your little kid, you're running around, 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.280 what were you first interested in? See if a stay 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:04.080 as a kid. I used to be a good student 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.440 even then, and my mom would put the fear of 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:09.920 God in us to say that if you don't study well, 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:13.880 you will have to probably be a manual laborer in 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.520 one of those fields or construction sites, which petrified me. 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:19.400 So I used to really study very hard. Did she 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:21.560 make you do that work like at nights or weekends 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:24.360 or summers. No, no, no, no, she did not. Viewing 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.200 it from a distance was enough for me to say 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:29.680 that's not what I would really like to do. So 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:31.800 as a student, I was a very good student, and 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.960 I joined chemical engineering because I was interested in chemistry, 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.080 and I was also specializing in environmental engineering, which is 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.080 all about pollution control and treatment of effluence and all that. 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.720 And I really enjoyed it. And I was a valectorian 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:46.240 and I stood first to the university as well as 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.200 other universities, got some gold medals and all the good stuff. 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:50.920 So I thought that's where I was going to actually 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:53.800 make my career. And I joined NBA after that in 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:57.320 one of the prestigious management schools in India called the 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:01.720 Indian Institute of Management in Bangalore, and I joined for 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:07.280 environmental management and human settlements and habitats. So that was 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:10.200 where I thought I'll specialize in. And quite by accident, 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.560 between the first and second years, I had to do internship. 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:16.919 And I did this internship with a company called lack Me, 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:19.680 which was a color cosmetics company in India, in India, 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:21.600 in India, in Angalore. So I was sitting in one 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.320 of the cabins and working away on my logistics projects, 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.000 and I overheard a conversation between my supervisor and the 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.720 agency guys in the next cubicle, and I said, why 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:33.080 are this guy struggling so hard? To me, it was 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:35.560 very evident how they should produce the campaign, though I 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:38.840 had no clue of advertising or marketing for that matter. 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:40.560 So I just took a small piece of paper and 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:44.240 I said the campaign caption I gave, is it bad 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.840 to look good? And then I created a small campaign 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.000 out there right there as an ad and I went 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:50.720 to him and they said, hey, I got an idea. 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.200 I just overard your conversation, so I hope you didn't mind, 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:54.840 but here is what I have as an idea. So 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.560 he fell off his chair. He said this is brilliant, 0:02:58.040 --> 0:02:59.960 and then that made it its way to the chair 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.320 one of the company, and then they really converted it 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.880 to the real campaign, which become a big hit once 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.000 some awards and all that. Wow, and it was just 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.440 something you were overhearing. I was just overhearing, and they 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.359 intuitively did it. So then I started thinking, you know, 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.120 maybe this is what I'm really good at. So in 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:19.000 stuff environmental interesting, our environmental management. Let me also try 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.480 to specialize in marketing. So I started taking a lot 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.519 of marketing electives and that's when the bug had really 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.240 written me. And here it is thirty six years after. 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.720 I'm still in marketing and I joy every moment of it. 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.280 So then you graduated, You've decided to make the switch 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:38.440 over to marketing, which is a massive mindset shift. How 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.720 did you have the courage to do that? Like I 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:45.000 hear you you had that line with you know the superiors, 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.200 and it works and it's fun and it's exciting. Let 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.000 me go take some electives. But you train your whole 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.280 life to do one thing to then just make such 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:54.520 a dramatic shift, Like, how do you have the courage 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.600 to do that? Or did you not do it? Like 0:03:57.680 --> 0:03:59.440 it wasn't so black and white, It was kind of 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.320 over time. No, it was an immediate switch. Literally, it 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.600 was an immediate switch. There was no pondering route for 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.000 a long time. So the key thing is, you know, 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.440 every marketing course that I took, I really enjoyed it 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.080 very deeply, and I could perform very well in the examinations, 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.599 in the case studies and things like that. Uh, and 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.760 when I graduated, I had I also want some scholarships 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.120 and all the good stuff. So when I graduated, there 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.679 was a company which came to the campus called Asian Paints. 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.320 It was the largest paint company in India. Like the 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.000 first company you worked for, correct, yes, And they came 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.520 for the campus recruitment and they don't They didn't have 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.440 a marketing department though they were India's largest paint company 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.000 and they wanted to create a marketing department. They wanted 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.800 me to be a founder member of the marketing team. 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.479 But as a founder flunkey, which I was okay with. 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:52.920 I had two bosses. It was a three people team. 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.400 So somehow the idea of creating a department from zero 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.080 and being a founder of that department gave me a 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:01.280 lot of kick. I said, okay, I'll go and do it. 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.640 And imagine my surprise when I went to the camp. 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:07.640 When I went joined the company, one of the directors 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:09.920 on the board of that company, he and I we 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:14.000 happened to meet in a men's toilet. So he asked me, 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:15.919 I believe you're the guy who has come in to 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:19.080 teach us how to do marketing, But tell me we 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.800 are doing anywhere so well without the help of any 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.920 marketing so far, and we are the market leaders, So 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.360 tell me what exactly are he is going to do 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:29.480 and how are you going to transform this because we're 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.440 doing well without your help so far. That actually set 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.560 me thinking quite a lot. I said, these guys are 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.520 already market leaders. They don't have a marketing department, So 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:40.480 what exactly does marketing do in companies? Till that time, 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.599 my knowledge and marketing was all very theoretical. It was 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:45.920 reading Philip Cartler and all the marketing books and all 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.160 that stuff. Then I started on a journey going to 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.839 different companies h and trying to ask them what do 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.839 you do in marketing? How are you organized? And what 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.640 are your goals and what are your strategies and so on. 0:05:57.720 --> 0:05:59.880 And I was going to people who are not companies 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.520 you were not competing against. And it was a fascinating 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.520 eye opener for me that each company had its own 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.440 definition of marketing. They do whatever they pleased and call 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:13.200 it marketing. And I said wow, because that that sort 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.240 of dispelled the myth that marketing is a function is 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.080 very well defined and this is how it has to be. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.440 It was as varied as the companies were so Hi said, Okay, 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.480 then we'll come up with our own definition of marketing. 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.039 And I created my own job description and our own 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.040 mandate for the function. And we produced some award winning 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.120 campaigns and created some award winning new products which became 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:39.360 market leaders and became with the distribution and logistics innovations. 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:42.279 Had a fantastic time there, and then what happens is 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:46.560 once you start, you know, seeing success, success motivates you 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.240 to do even more, and that sort of even more 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.760 and some of that that sort of kept going throughout 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.039 my career and I moved from after three years with 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:58.320 Asian Pints, I moved to Unilever, which was considered to 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.240 be their school of marketing in India. Yes, and the 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.920 reason why I wanted to mut huge company. It's a 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:07.440 gigantic company and it's a household name in India. And 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:09.320 I didn't move because if it was a household name 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:11.320 or a great brand. But I moved because they were 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:15.560 giving me accommodation in Bombay. As a nice little they 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.040 give you an apartment. It's a big perk right in Bombay. 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.920 You don't affer you cannot refer an apartment on your own, 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:23.920 particularly when you're starting your career in three years into 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:25.440 your career. So I said, that's a great deal. So 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.080 I went and joined, and when I joined, I had 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.880 the biggest shock in my life when they said, okay, 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.840 you're coming into Uni Liver, but you start in sales, 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.720 not in marketing. And here I was. I always had 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.880 very low opinion of salespeople. Oh good, you've come to 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:45.120 the right podcast. Correct, so welcome. So interestingly, I said, no, 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:49.000 sales is meant for people who are not intellectual. Great, God, 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:51.360 I want to just keep recording this. I'm sort of 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.120 going on right. And I always felt if people are 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:58.040 a glib they can talk smoothly and they can trick 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.320 you into buying things that you don't need. You're a 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:02.640 great sales guy. You in awards, you get your come 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.240 incentives and all that. They said, that's what sales is. 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.440 And I'm not that kind of a guy. Always fancy 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.480 it myself as being a intellectual and a creative kind 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.320 of a guy, but not a sales guy. So I said, 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.840 I'll not joint and then the head of marketing for 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:19.240 Univerity India he said that you trust me unless you're 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:22.160 a good salesman, you'll never be a good marketer. You'll 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:27.280 remain an ivory town marketer. And uh, the temptation of 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.200 the apartment was too much to let go, So very 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:34.640 reluctantly I went into sales. And I was put in 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:38.320 charge of North India, which was a gigantic territory for 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.640 India at the time for all the personal care products. 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:45.960 And I had like a salespeople that had to supervise 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.200 and had no clue of sales, and I was put 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.240 off their boss. I said, he's going to be a 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:54.360 crazy journey. And I think my myths about sales got 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:58.280 dispelled with it. The very first week. Suddenly started seeing 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.640 that these guys and I joined. In summer, it's hot, 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:06.960 scorching heart in India. In the I've heard it's awfully hot. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.880 And these poor guys would go onto the streets go 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:14.680 shop to shop to shop, because in India the distribution 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.920 was moment pop stores. They would go, they would plead, 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.200 they would convinced, they would sell the product, actually deliver 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:23.880 the products themselves, because they had to pick up stocks 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.040 and if you don't deliver the stocks, then the shopkeeper 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.679 might change his or her mind. So they wanted to 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:31.960 fulfill the right then and there itself, collect the money 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.480 from the previous visit, and then go to the next shop. 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.200 They had to do forty shops a day, and I 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.760 started walking with them. I found a new and a 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.760 level of respect for these folks. I said, these guys 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.679 are killing themselves. They're pounding the pavements relentlessly, and when 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:51.079 you're told no, no, no, in multiple shops, it's very 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.679 for me. I was feeling thoroughly depressed and demoralized. These 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.800 guys they wouldn't let their spirits sink our sag. They 0:09:57.800 --> 0:09:59.840 would just keep going. I tell you that was probably 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.199 the biggest lesson in my life from the point of resilience. 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:08.120 And I a new founding appreciation for sales like never before. 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:12.000 And then I start getting addicted to sales and we 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.880 started really together the sales that we were bonding beautifully, 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.559 But what was enduring was the relationships with the people. 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:20.120 They would give their life for you. And these folks 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:22.559 still now. There's some of my best friends and I 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:24.560 keep in touch with them and whenever I go to India, 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.320 we have a reunion with the team. And they're all 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.360 in different places now. Some of them have unfortunately passed away, 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.040 some of them are there. So the those who are 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.440 life we all get together frequently and we have our 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.400 zoom calls these days. Actually I made lifelong relationships and 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.840 they taught me, actually, what is marketing in the field, 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:48.679 mar It is sales. You are fighting the marketing warfare 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.960 on the streets, in the shops, in the retail and 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.080 that's where the actually the rubber hits the road. You 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:59.160 can sit in your ivory tower head office in an 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:03.120 air conditioned comfort and then start creating all your fancy campaigns. 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:05.040 But these are the guys who actually make it happen. 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.320 You know, you can create demand, yes, but these are 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.320 the guys who are actually enabled the demand fulfillment and 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.640 get the distribution going. Without all that, your whole marketing 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:15.720 is altherways useless, and particularly in those days, there was 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.720 no direct marketing. You had to go through distribution channels. 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.880 But what also done it did was in sales, you're 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:26.880 focused on tangible outcomes. In marketing, you can become very 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:30.440 fluffy and intellectually justify to yourself that you're doing a 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.560 great job. People, I've loved this campaign, stuff like that, 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:38.320 But sales is all abouts and it's very very tangible, right, 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.520 connecting the dots between the results, marketing, etcetera. It was 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.360 a phenomenal journey and I was there for three and 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.640 a half years in sales before then I moved into marketing. 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:49.959 And then when I'm so grateful that I had that steam, 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:00.000 I want to go back there to that that moment 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.520 it where you know, you talked about the question that 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.640 came to you of Okay, we're a huge company, we're 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.760 selling a lot. What are you going to do for marketing? 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:15.000 What is marketing for a company that is already selling 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.200 the most? Is it just really? I mean, you've done 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:19.760 a lot of innovation and what I mean I could 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.240 talk to you for a hundred hours right like there 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.040 is That's what I'm saying when you came in here 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:25.439 as I don't even know where to start with him 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.400 because from this award to this title, to this role 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:31.679 to this is so much. But it's it's innovating new 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.680 products to help sales. Is that kind of the path 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:36.880 that you then took. For sure, you're selling everything you 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.920 currently have well, but you could sell more and you 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.720 could also do this, this, this, and that's where marketing helps. 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:44.840 So marketing or the way I would look at it 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:51.800 is creating demand across every point within the value chain. Okay, 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:56.960 consumers should demand your product, the retailers should demand your product, 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.160 the whole siters should demand your product or service. Which 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:04.800 you were it is the factory people should prioritize your product. 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:07.840 You're creating demand for your product to be produced by 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:12.480 these guys. You're literally selling You're the need to get 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.160 your product into their respective domains across the entire value 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.320 chain is one part of it. Second, you're trying to 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:24.560 understand the latent demand, latent needs of people. People many 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.800 of the times they don't even know what they want, right. 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:28.880 And I think Steve Jobs has really made it famous 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.760 with his court and that's true. But Philip Carler long 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.120 long before that, he said that marketing is all about 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:39.400 satisfying the felt and the latent demand of people. And 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.160 uh so that part of it is something which is 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.360 fascinating to understand. Like, you know, how innovative can you 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.319 get creating a soap? How much two people related a 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.120 stupid soap are a shampoo? Right? But then you're trying 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.719 to split hair and come up with concepts which are 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.680 really compelling and shift the market share in terms of 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:58.800 the demand that you get and then fulfill it. It's 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.319 that kind of a thing. How do you manage logistics 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.120 very differently, how do you come up with packaging innovation 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.599 Because when people are going not every product purchase is 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.760 a predetermined purchase. There is a lot of impulse purchase. 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.200 Plus also at the moment of truth, when you're just 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:15.960 buying it, the packaging needs to be motivating and give 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.719 you that just gentle nudge to go over and then 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.240 pick up that and then buy the product you create 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:25.840 packaging pricing this is a quantitative game, and pricing is 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.760 where in fact I have leveraged probably the most of 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.600 my engineering skills because you're playing with numbers and how 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:37.120 small changes in pricing can vastly impact your profitability on 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.520 the one hand, but on the other hand, it can 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:44.640 also you know, move your consumer behavior, whether your price 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:48.400 elastic or not. That's what the term is. It's fascinating. 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.360 And then there's behavioral economics, which is a completely different 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.880 field where it has got nothing to do with rational thinking, 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.240 but it's all about emotions and feelings and how do 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.200 you connect that behavior with economics And the combination of 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.120 the intersection is habit of economics it's a fascinating thing. 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:06.200 So marketing is such a rich and holistic function. Uh, 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.760 and that's what I tried to do throughout back area, 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:10.800 which you a role with you a company or with 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.680 your geography I was in So how long were you 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.240 you lever almost seventy years, almost seven years, and from 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.480 there you went to City Bank, City Bank and you're 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.160 there for a long time, fifteen years. So what was 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.720 the first thing you thought about then? As as the 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.200 marketer right behind that new credit card? That that other 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.440 people listening who are starting their own businesses, whether it's 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.520 in sales of real estate or cars, or starting their 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.800 own app or whatever they might be doing. Like where 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:42.440 do you what do you start? I get that question 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.440 a lot because people become very overwhelmed. Right, they know 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:46.920 what they're doing, but they have no idea where you 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.760 even start? Do I start with socialize it people on 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.240 the street? And I should I print out flyers? Do 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.520 I go on a radio show? Do I do it all? 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:57.560 And then I don't do anything because it's too much 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.200 like when you did that, Like, what was the first 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:01.920 thing you thought about? What you want? See? The first 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.080 thing is you need to make sure that you understand 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:10.920 what need you are satisfying and of whom? Uh? And 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.240 if you know, for example, I'm satisfying the payment needs 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.640 of consumers, that is a notion in itself. What part 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.800 of payment needs is it the borrowing or is it 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:25.200 the you know, a spontaneous immediate payment or you're talking 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.520 about the convenience. There are so many aspects of So 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.800 what you do is you look at the need dissected 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:37.040 to death to understand every facet of that need. Number one, 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.400 write it all down. I think there's nothing gives you 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:43.000 better clarity than either speaking it out or writing it down. 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.040 Writing it down is by far the best when I find. 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:47.560 Then when you look at it and then see, okay, 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:51.320 these there are ten needs or sub needs or manifestations 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.440 of the need or the one need that I'm actually 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.720 saying I'm going to address. Choose your bucket of needs 0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:00.360 that you want to satisfy Number one. Then get the 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:05.359 cultural context and the fabric. People say, oh, I'm in 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.000 the business to business marketing or my product is to businesses, 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:10.920 so why should it be b to be so why 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.920 should it be bothered about, you know, human psychology and 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.000 all because I'm selling it to your business. The thing 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:21.359 that's a big fallacy in people's minds. So long as 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:26.000 it is human beings who run businesses, they still behave 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.480 like human beings even in the business context. So Raja 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:33.520 the consumer behaves exactly the same way as Raja the 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:38.760 decision maker for his business, the same aspirations, the same insecurities, 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:43.760 the same goals, the same apprehensions. It's your one individual, 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.560 irrespective which context you are in. But what happens, for 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:51.360 some weird reason is people become very formal and impersonal 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.440 when it comes to be to be communication or b 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.719 two be pitching, whereas in personal they're all you know, 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:59.840 oozing emotion and nice and warm and all that stuff. 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.560 So that people have to really realize it is one 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.480 single person into different contexts. Yes, when I make decisions 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.720 for my company, I'm not paying it out of my pocket. Sure, 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:14.119 somebody's financing, there are some gatekeepers, there are some influencers 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.840 to my decision. But I'm still Raja. I'm the same 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.000 person with the same emotional makeup, with the same feelings. 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.520 So if you recognize that part of it, you're going 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.200 to be marketing very differently than the way you are. 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:29.760 In fact, I give this feed back to a lot 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:31.879 of my peers as well. Is a look at the 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.840 flyer or some brochure that you produce for a company. 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:38.080 It looks like a piece of industrial brochure, which you 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.680 should not be. Make it interesting, make it exciting, make 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.480 it playful. So when you came into MasterCard, because I'm 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:47.760 still you know, I've always come from a point of 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.000 you know, every house we sell is a brand new puzzle. 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:53.600 You know, the house hasn't sold a thousand times where 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:55.400 it's selling so well that one house, so I could 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:56.800 sell it in a heartbeat. I don't have to do 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.159 anything for it. Every house we get is hard in 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:04.800 some way, unless it's underpriced. But it's maybe twice in 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:06.760 my whole life I've met a seller who's agreed to 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:12.040 underprise something every other time by far, well it's over priced. Um. 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:15.960 And so you MasterCard is a huge company, right, a 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.280 massive company. What was one of the first things you 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.760 did when you came in there to really help them 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.560 think about marketing in a different way, to help them 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:28.600 grow their business? Yeah? You see, Actually MasterCard was already 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.560 a top hundred brand whether you inherited it, right, And 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.360 that's a huge privilege to inherit a brand like MasterCard, 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.080 and I felt very grateful for that, and I still 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:41.360 feel very grateful for that. And the company had a 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:46.639 fantastic ad campaign called Priceless. Uh so it's not like 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:48.960 I have inherited something which is broken that needs to 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:53.360 be fixed, but just chugging away brilliantly. Famous. Who came 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:57.720 up with that? An agency? An agency, yes they have that. 0:19:57.800 --> 0:19:59.600 They were the ones who came with the Priceless campaign. 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.280 And we is running now. In fact, next year is 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:07.680 the tiversary of that happen, So it's it's absolutely doing 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.200 a brilliant even today. So when it came in my 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:16.480 my mandate was not a fixed marketing, but to really 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:20.680 move marketing into a different realm of effectiveness. And so 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:24.359 we started asking ourselves, what why does marketing exist within 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:26.199 master Card? So in those days it all used to 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:30.040 be about build and nurture the brand and make it strong. 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:34.160 So I said, that's a very narrow way of defining marketing. 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.720 So we said, we'll have three pillars. We will grow 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:41.800 and nurture the brand and protect our reputation. We will 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:45.520 be the single biggest competitive advantage for master Card. So 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:50.240 marketing and communications should be the single biggest competitive advantage 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:53.480 for master Card, and therefore we can fuel the business. 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:55.720 So we said, we'll be actually feeling the growth of 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.560 the business, profitable growth of the business, and of course 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:03.600 build these UH platforms and capabilities that are very difficult 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:05.720 for other people to replicate, so we have a sustainable 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.040 competitive advantage. So with these three pillars, we went in 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:13.000 and we went a complete overhaul, including the Priceless campaign. 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:17.240 So Priceless used to be an advertising platform, so you 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.720