WEBVTT - Delaware Senator Chris Coons Talks AI Risks

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios.

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<v Speaker 2>Podcasts.

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<v Speaker 3>Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>News.

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<v Speaker 4>The big news this morning kicked off by Daria Omaday

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<v Speaker 4>of Anthropic, writing an essay, 3,800 words in length here,

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<v Speaker 4>focusing on slowing down the pacing of AI development, really responding, Christina,

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<v Speaker 4>to what we've seen over the last couple of weeks.

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<v Speaker 4>Reports from companies like Anthropic about problems that they've experienced

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<v Speaker 4>with their models, but also employees, former employees, raising real

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<v Speaker 4>concerns about where all of this is headed.

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<v Speaker 1>And this was a conversation that needed to be had,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's being forced at this moment, both because of

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<v Speaker 1>some of those whistleblowers, some of those reports, but also

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<v Speaker 1>as we've been speaking to people, the technology is now

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<v Speaker 1>at the point where it could get off the rails,

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<v Speaker 1>and it seems like we're at a critical juncture.

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<v Speaker 4>So much to talk about here, and very glad to

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<v Speaker 4>have the opportunity to do it with Senator Chris Coons

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<v Speaker 4>of Delaware, who's on the Appropriations and Foreign Relations Committee

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<v Speaker 4>as he joins us now. Senator, great to have you

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<v Speaker 4>with us, and let's start with this essay and the

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<v Speaker 4>waves that it's making on this Sunday morning.

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<v Speaker 3>Not sure if you've read it.

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<v Speaker 4>In its entirety, but the suggestion that jumped out to

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<v Speaker 4>me is that there could be more cooperation between companies

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<v Speaker 4>and the government, cooperation within the democracy, as Dario Amadei

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<v Speaker 4>put it. I'm curious from where you sit in the U.S. Senate,

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<v Speaker 4>how much of an appetite there is in light of

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<v Speaker 4>this essay, the reports that we've seen, the social media posts,

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<v Speaker 4>to take a new tack when it comes to this conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>David, the essay by Dario Amadei says out loud what

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<v Speaker 2>many of us have known for months, if not years,

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<v Speaker 2>especially after the huggy face hack that happened recently. These

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<v Speaker 2>models are doing things that their designers didn't expect, can't predict,

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<v Speaker 2>and aren't able to fully control. And the level of

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<v Speaker 2>risk for us as a species, as a nation, is

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<v Speaker 2>gradually accelerating. I have a bill in the Judiciary Committee

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<v Speaker 2>with Senator Grassley that we are going to try and

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<v Speaker 2>get passed soon that would protect AI whistleblowers. Because, frankly,

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<v Speaker 2>the main reason we know about these steadily increasing risks

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<v Speaker 2>is because of whistleblowers. They're taking career risks, even personal risks,

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<v Speaker 2>by stepping out and saying this. Now that we've got

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<v Speaker 2>agreement from Elon Musk and Sam Altman and Dario Amadei,

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<v Speaker 2>we need agreement from Republicans and Democrats in Congress to

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<v Speaker 2>put aside our partisan pre-election bickering and put in place

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<v Speaker 2>some real guardrails before AI goes off the rails.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's what I was going to ask you about

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<v Speaker 1>is if you think that consensus, that agreement can exist.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to play you some sound from Ted Cruz.

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<v Speaker 1>So I know you co-sponsor a bill with, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about that a little bit later, about what

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<v Speaker 1>he said about the competition coming from China, which seems

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<v Speaker 1>to be the real wild card in regulating some of

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<v Speaker 1>these American companies.

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<v Speaker 5>That is an impossible endeavor because you know who's not pausing?

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<v Speaker 3>China.

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<v Speaker 5>They are not going to stop. If you look at

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<v Speaker 5>where the U.S. So if AI is going to kill us,

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<v Speaker 5>it should be U.S.

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<v Speaker 1>AI, not Chinese AI?

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<v Speaker 5>Listen, I've actually joked that if, and this is somewhat tongue-in-cheek,

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<v Speaker 5>but it's not entirely, if they're going to be killer robots,

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<v Speaker 5>I'd rather they be American killer robots and not Chinese

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<v Speaker 5>killer robots.

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<v Speaker 1>When you look at concerns about China outrunning U.S. in

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<v Speaker 1>the AI competition, is it harder to have that conversation

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<v Speaker 1>about slowing down AI in in the U.S. if people,

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<v Speaker 1>including probably some fellow Democrats and Republicans, are concerned about

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<v Speaker 1>losing the competitive edge with China?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, I think all of us are concerned about our

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<v Speaker 2>competition with China, or we should be, and the ways

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<v Speaker 2>in which AI is accelerating developments in everything, not just

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<v Speaker 2>positive developments in, for example, finding new treatments and cures

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<v Speaker 2>for diseases, but developments in the possibility of AI engineering

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<v Speaker 2>a deadly bioweapon, AI being used for hypersonic missiles, for

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<v Speaker 2>cracking codes, for taking down GPS. There are lots of

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<v Speaker 2>malign applications for AI in warfare. The drones that are

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<v Speaker 2>being fired at Ukrainian civilians every night by Russia are

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<v Speaker 2>becoming faster and stronger because Russia and Iran are using

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<v Speaker 2>AI to improve their targeting. So, yes, there is a

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<v Speaker 2>real concern on my part and many of my colleagues.

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<v Speaker 2>I understand the point there that Senator Cruz is making.

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<v Speaker 2>The reason his opinion here is particularly relevant is he's

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<v Speaker 2>the chair of the Commerce Committee. But he and his

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<v Speaker 2>ranking member, Maria Cantwell of Washington, are also working closely

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<v Speaker 2>together on trying to protect college sports. If they can

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<v Speaker 2>come together against some of the biggest divisions we have

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<v Speaker 2>in politics to try and save something that brings together

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<v Speaker 2>tens of millions of Americans cheering on college sports, I

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<v Speaker 2>have some hope that we can come together to address

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<v Speaker 2>this urgent threat. I also frankly think that this is

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<v Speaker 2>something that has to be on the agenda when President

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<v Speaker 2>Trump meets with Xi Jinping. This is as much a

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<v Speaker 2>threat to China as it is to the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>And so even though our competition is fierce, even though

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<v Speaker 2>our political systems are fundamentally different, I'll remind you in

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<v Speaker 2>the height of the Cold War, when the Soviet Union

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<v Speaker 2>and the United States were locked in a decades-long conflict

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<v Speaker 2>where we threatened each other's existence with nuclear weapons, we

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<v Speaker 2>were able to negotiate arms control agreements to reduce the

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<v Speaker 2>risk we would destroy humanity. This moment requires us to

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<v Speaker 2>do the same, to look up from our domestic concerns

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<v Speaker 2>or our partisan concerns and work to find a way

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<v Speaker 2>that we can come up with some minimal, reasonable guardrails

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<v Speaker 2>to slow the rapidly accelerating pace of AI development and deployment.

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<v Speaker 4>I hear you echoing another senator, that's Bernie Sanders, who

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<v Speaker 4>tweeted out at their upcoming AI summit, Trump and Xi

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<v Speaker 4>must negotiate a treaty to pause AI and ban superintelligence

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<v Speaker 4>before it's too late. I want to read something else

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<v Speaker 4>to you here, and that's from David Sachs, who continues

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<v Speaker 4>to play a kind of quasi- official role within the administration,

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<v Speaker 4>advisory role to the president. And he said, in response

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<v Speaker 4>to what we've seen from Anthropic and the response from

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<v Speaker 4>these other companies, quote, stop pretending you need anyone else's permission.

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<v Speaker 4>Stop pretending antitrust law has to be suspended so you

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<v Speaker 4>can form a cartel. This is something that Dario Amadei

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<v Speaker 4>brought up in this essay, that for these companies to

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<v Speaker 4>work together, there needs to be some assurance here from

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<v Speaker 4>the government that they won't be in violation of antitrust laws.

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<v Speaker 4>Are you sympathetic to that case that he's making in

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<v Speaker 4>this essay?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, am I sympathetic to the argument Dario Amadei is

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<v Speaker 2>making that in order for the leaders of frontier AI

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<v Speaker 2>development to genuinely cooperate, they need to know they won't

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<v Speaker 2>be prosecuted or pursued would be the right term under

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<v Speaker 2>any trust law?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, I was in-house counsel to a global company. Any

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<v Speaker 2>lawyer advising any CEO would make that point. And David Sachs, look,

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<v Speaker 2>I have disagreed with him on his view about AI

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<v Speaker 2>and chips and China and competition. because his view has

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<v Speaker 2>been that we should be willing to sell the most

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<v Speaker 2>advanced NVIDIA chips to China, something I've disagreed with. But

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<v Speaker 2>the urgency of this moment calls on these incredibly powerful,

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<v Speaker 2>successful companies to put the common good above their competitive

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<v Speaker 2>interests for at least the current moment. Look, Bernie Sanders,

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<v Speaker 2>Senator Sanders of Vermont, has been calling out, raising the

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<v Speaker 2>alarm about AI now for months, and I respect that.

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<v Speaker 2>He at least is a strong voice on the left

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<v Speaker 2>end of my party, but his calling for a moratorium

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<v Speaker 2>is frankly not practical. What we need is to come

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<v Speaker 2>up with guardrails that are enforceable and that we then

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<v Speaker 2>work with our allies, partners, and adversaries to try and

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<v Speaker 2>get in place globally.

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<v Speaker 1>But when it comes to trying to legislate this technology,

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<v Speaker 1>My co-anchor accused me of being ageist earlier in the week.

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<v Speaker 1>But Congress does not have the best track record at

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<v Speaker 1>understanding new technology. And I think about social media because

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<v Speaker 1>when it first came out, there were efforts to try

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<v Speaker 1>to regulate it, and it didn't really work. And now

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<v Speaker 1>20 years later, we're seeing that kind of play out

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<v Speaker 1>in the courts. It's being legislated through lawsuits because that infrastructure,

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<v Speaker 1>those guardrails, especially for kids' safety, weren't there. Do you

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<v Speaker 1>think Congress understands AI well enough to successfully regulate it?

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<v Speaker 2>No, and that's one of our real challenges is that

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<v Speaker 2>we've got folks in the Senate and the House who

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<v Speaker 2>are not as engaged, as curious, as current on this

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<v Speaker 2>rapidly evolving technology as we need. Let me give credit

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<v Speaker 2>to Senator Schumer and Senator Young, Senator Rounds and Senator Heinrich,

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<v Speaker 2>who in the last Congress as a bipartisan group convened

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<v Speaker 2>seven different summits on AI. There was session after session

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<v Speaker 2>where they pulled into the Senate all the most important

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<v Speaker 2>leaders from these companies that are developing this technology and

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<v Speaker 2>from the different organizations, hospitals and unions, healthcare companies, car

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<v Speaker 2>manufacturing companies, to talk.

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<v Speaker 3>About AI and its development.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got the only bipartisan bill ready for enactment that

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<v Speaker 2>came out of that process. And it's in the Judiciary Committee.

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<v Speaker 2>It has to do with folks in the creative community

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<v Speaker 2>having control of their image and likeness. It's called the

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<v Speaker 2>No Fakes Act. Senator Tillis and I have worked very

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<v Speaker 2>hard on it. But after those seven convened conversations in

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<v Speaker 2>the last Congress, there just hasn't been enough work and

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<v Speaker 2>enough progress on the obvious areas where we need to

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<v Speaker 2>be doing regulation. In no small part, that's because there's

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<v Speaker 2>a new administration. The Trump administration has had a light

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<v Speaker 2>touch view about regulating AI. We need an administration that

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<v Speaker 2>wakes up to this threat, is more engaged, and doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>just say, oh, we can handle it all through executive order.

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<v Speaker 3>You can't.

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<v Speaker 2>It requires court action, as you just observed about social

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<v Speaker 2>media regulation, and it requires Congress to be engaged and effective.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a moment we have to stand up and

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<v Speaker 3>do our jobs.

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<v Speaker 4>For the record, Christina, the senior senator here, 63 years old,

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<v Speaker 4>spry by senatorial standards. Just want to make that point.

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<v Speaker 1>Listen, I've seen some late nights in Washington, and the

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<v Speaker 1>senator often lasts longer than I do at some of

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<v Speaker 1>these events, so no ageism here.

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<v Speaker 4>Let me put up an Instagram post by Margaret Vestager.

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<v Speaker 4>She was the EU competition chief. She posted this on

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<v Speaker 4>Instagram this morning. I thought it was creative. It's a

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<v Speaker 4>photograph of her I believe it's her dog, a beautiful

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<v Speaker 4>golden retriever, and she writes, if you're working on something

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<v Speaker 4>that would with a 10% probability erase humanity in four years,

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<v Speaker 4>maybe you should not just pause, you should stop until

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<v Speaker 4>you know what you're doing and we are all safe.

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<v Speaker 4>I heard you say a moment ago that what Senator

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<v Speaker 4>Sanders is espousing here, something similar, let's stop this entirely,

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<v Speaker 4>isn't reasonable. We're getting to the fact that there's a

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<v Speaker 4>spectrum here in terms of response, and I think there

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<v Speaker 4>will be many Americans who feel like, in light of

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<v Speaker 4>what we've learned over the course of these last weeks,

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<v Speaker 4>what we've seen in this essay, maybe this is a

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<v Speaker 4>moment to stop, that the folks that we've trusted to

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<v Speaker 4>develop and pioneer this technology might not have a grasp

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<v Speaker 4>on what it's doing. What would you say to them

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<v Speaker 4>in particular, those who are worried about the direction this

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<v Speaker 4>is going?

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<v Speaker 3>Look, I'm worried.

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<v Speaker 2>We should all be alarmed about the direction this is going.

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<v Speaker 2>And I didn't mean to dismiss what Senator Sanders or

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<v Speaker 2>the EU competition chief is calling for, I just have

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<v Speaker 2>grave concern that when our president, who leads the executive branch,

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<v Speaker 2>is really only using AI to make up all sorts

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<v Speaker 2>of bizarre late night cartoons of himself conquering Canada or

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<v Speaker 2>retaking Greenland, that we don't have a serious partner in

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<v Speaker 2>the executive branch. And we have competitors globally, particularly China,

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<v Speaker 2>who are going to keep racing ahead. I'd like to

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<v Speaker 2>see us walk before we run in this area. There

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<v Speaker 2>is a real chance that we will have a 9-11 moment,

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<v Speaker 2>that we will have a mass catastrophe because of AI

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<v Speaker 2>and then look around for the off switch and discover

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<v Speaker 2>we don't have one. So if Senator Sanders is asking

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<v Speaker 2>for a very strong response, I respect that. I just

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<v Speaker 2>think it's going to be difficult to accomplish in an

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<v Speaker 2>environment where neither the president, the administration, nor many of

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<v Speaker 2>the senior Republicans on the relevant committees, judiciary and commerce,

0:12:12.260 --> 0:12:16.200
<v Speaker 2>are following in that same direction. So finding a path

0:12:16.260 --> 0:12:19.819
<v Speaker 2>towards some guardrails, like passing my bill with Senator Grassley

0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:23.179
<v Speaker 2>that at least protects the whistleblowers, would be a great

0:12:23.260 --> 0:12:25.760
<v Speaker 2>first step that we could do this month.

0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:27.200
<v Speaker 3>Senator, I apologize.

0:12:27.220 --> 0:12:28.740
<v Speaker 1>We only have a few minutes left, but I do

0:12:28.780 --> 0:12:31.179
<v Speaker 1>want to ask you about another place that's struggling to

0:12:31.220 --> 0:12:33.480
<v Speaker 1>find an off switch, and that's the conflict in Iran.

0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.559
<v Speaker 1>As this conflict continues, we have this BRICS summit happening

0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:39.890
<v Speaker 1>over the weekend in India with leaders of Middle East countries,

0:12:40.130 --> 0:12:43.150
<v Speaker 1>South Asian countries, and Iran present, and then possibly another

0:12:43.190 --> 0:12:47.710
<v Speaker 1>meeting with some Gulf allies and Iran, maybe in Muscat tomorrow.

0:12:48.130 --> 0:12:50.429
<v Speaker 1>Where is the U.S. in this? Do you think America

0:12:50.510 --> 0:12:53.590
<v Speaker 1>is doing enough? Are you confident in Jared Witkoff in

0:12:54.190 --> 0:12:59.130
<v Speaker 1>Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff as negotiators to end this war,

0:12:59.190 --> 0:13:00.290
<v Speaker 1>or do they need to be replaced?

0:13:01.970 --> 0:13:05.460
<v Speaker 2>No, look, I think the world, and in particular the

0:13:05.500 --> 0:13:08.800
<v Speaker 2>Middle East, has concluded that President Trump had no idea

0:13:08.860 --> 0:13:11.420
<v Speaker 2>what he was doing when he launched this war of

0:13:11.460 --> 0:13:15.670
<v Speaker 2>choice against Iran. If a blockade, if tougher sanctions really

0:13:15.750 --> 0:13:18.200
<v Speaker 2>are the right tools for to bring the Iranians to

0:13:18.220 --> 0:13:18.640
<v Speaker 2>the table.

0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:19.940
<v Speaker 3>He should have used.

0:13:19.820 --> 0:13:23.400
<v Speaker 2>Them before launching a war where our own magazine depth,

0:13:23.820 --> 0:13:27.830
<v Speaker 2>the number of interceptors we had to stop Iranian ballistic

0:13:27.870 --> 0:13:31.550
<v Speaker 2>missiles and drones from hitting our allies in the region,

0:13:31.950 --> 0:13:36.670
<v Speaker 2>our partners. It was not well thought out and well planned.

0:13:37.410 --> 0:13:41.070
<v Speaker 2>President Trump offered five or six different justifications for the war,

0:13:41.530 --> 0:13:44.780
<v Speaker 2>regime change, urging the Iranian people to rise up and

0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:49.729
<v Speaker 2>overthrow their government, taking out, killing the Ayatollah and most

0:13:49.770 --> 0:13:50.390
<v Speaker 2>of his family.

0:13:50.890 --> 0:13:52.929
<v Speaker 3>That was one excuse or justification.

0:13:53.010 --> 0:13:56.510
<v Speaker 2>Another was ending the nuclear weapons program, which months later

0:13:56.550 --> 0:14:01.679
<v Speaker 2>he claimed was obliterated. Another was stopping the ballistic missile program.

0:14:01.820 --> 0:14:04.740
<v Speaker 2>None of these have been achieved. The Strait of Hormuz

0:14:04.780 --> 0:14:07.979
<v Speaker 2>is not open. The Houthis, who are aligned with Iran,

0:14:08.100 --> 0:14:11.410
<v Speaker 2>are more strong and more regionally capable than ever, having

0:14:11.450 --> 0:14:14.809
<v Speaker 2>just taken control of much of the Red Sea. We

0:14:14.830 --> 0:14:16.980
<v Speaker 2>are in a mess, and I am not confident that

0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:18.460
<v Speaker 2>we have the right negotiators.

0:14:18.900 --> 0:14:21.080
<v Speaker 3>Look, I may respect Steve Witkoff's.

0:14:20.660 --> 0:14:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Capacity to do complex real estate deals in New York.

0:14:24.260 --> 0:14:27.600
<v Speaker 2>That doesn't mean he's the right person to negotiate a

0:14:27.740 --> 0:14:31.160
<v Speaker 2>just peace between Russia and Ukraine and between Iran and

0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:34.890
<v Speaker 2>Saudi Arabia and the UAE. These are incredibly complex conflicts,

0:14:35.250 --> 0:14:37.570
<v Speaker 2>and his previous experience does not make him the right

0:14:37.630 --> 0:14:41.240
<v Speaker 2>person to bring a lasting deal home in these regions.