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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today is Howard Dean.

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Speaker 1: Dean has an impressive list of former titles, former governor

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Speaker 1: of Vermont, former chair of the Democratic National Committee, and

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Speaker 1: former candidate for the Democratic presidential primary in two thousand four,

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Speaker 1: and currently he is still opinionated about what the Democrats

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Speaker 1: need to do at this pivotal time. Dean's faith in

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Speaker 1: people's fundamental decency is shaped in part by his years

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Speaker 1: in Vermont politics. Though originally a New Yorker, Dean has

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Speaker 1: lived in Vermont most of his adult life, and he

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Speaker 1: was a family physician before becoming governor. When you look

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Speaker 1: at a map of the states where COVID rates have

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Speaker 1: been soaring, Vermont seems to be faring better than other

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Speaker 1: places like New York City and l A. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to know if it's simply because Vermont is rural. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean from a density point of do it makes

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Speaker 1: a difference. We also happen to have a Republican governor

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Speaker 1: who has a brain and who that cares what the

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Speaker 1: facts are, which is nice. He actually confessed to having

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Speaker 1: voted for Biden after the election was over. I like him. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's there's Larry Hogan and Charlie Baker. I mean, there

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Speaker 1: are some reasonable Republicans still, but Vermont has been very successful. Now, look,

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Speaker 1: we're having a surge too, and we're having problems and

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Speaker 1: we gotta, you know, buckle down. But we're a community

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Speaker 1: that cares about each other. We actually sit down and

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Speaker 1: have discussions about debate issues. I never hated the Republicans

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Speaker 1: when I was governor. We used to sit down and

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Speaker 1: work stuff out as much friction with an our crass

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Speaker 1: as I did with the Republicans. This is a reasonable

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Speaker 1: place where people actually care about their neighbors and believe

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to respect your neighbors. Now, we were just

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Speaker 1: joking before you come and we're like, could Howard Dean

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Speaker 1: be the president now in the interim just till the

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Speaker 1: COVID's over, then Biden could take over. Could we have

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Speaker 1: a medical doctor who's president for an interim period of time?

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Speaker 1: But we know what from us as a physician, where

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Speaker 1: did we primarily get it wrong here in terms of

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Speaker 1: the way we handle the COVID. Well, Trump has been

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Speaker 1: a disaster because Trump cares about Trump and his press,

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Speaker 1: and not any functional thing. I mean, he's basically gutted

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Speaker 1: all the health agencies by putting lackeys in there who

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Speaker 1: are afraid of him. So he ruined the good name

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Speaker 1: of the CDC and and and the f d A,

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Speaker 1: and you know, calling up the f d A president,

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Speaker 1: head of the f d A and threatening if you

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Speaker 1: don't get this thing out in the next twenty four hours,

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Speaker 1: you should resign. I mean, that's not medicine, that's just nonsense. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And that's why the way it's always been, the big

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Speaker 1: problem is and Trump is more or less created the

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Speaker 1: I'm not wearing a mask because that's my political affiliation,

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Speaker 1: which is just stupidity. So yeah, we'd be better off

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Speaker 1: the Trump The problem is, I mean, if you look

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Speaker 1: at other countries, they are better off, a lot better

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Speaker 1: off then we are. Almost all of them, not all

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Speaker 1: of them. Brazil is in bad shape, Russia is in

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Speaker 1: bad shape. But but most of the countries in this

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Speaker 1: world are much doing a much better job than we are.

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Speaker 1: And that that's right at the feet of Trump and

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party, which never dared to confront of them,

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Speaker 1: and locking down was the answer. Locking down, unfortunately, is

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Speaker 1: some of the answer, and I think it was handled

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Speaker 1: actually fairly well. We got behind in New York, and

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Speaker 1: that's understandable because we didn't know what was coming. We

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Speaker 1: didn't understand what was happening. They pulled themselves together. The

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Speaker 1: stuff that's going on in the Midwest is ridiculous. That

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Speaker 1: was a whole bunch of Republican governors that basically said, oh,

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Speaker 1: we don't need to wear a mask. Well, now people

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Speaker 1: are dying, dropping down like flies, and there's I c

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Speaker 1: u s are all full. The danger of the i

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Speaker 1: c u s being fillers twofold one is a terrible

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Speaker 1: indicator of how sick everybody is. But the other is

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Speaker 1: that if you have a heart attack, guests who doesn't

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Speaker 1: get an i CU bed or even medical attention. So

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Speaker 1: the Midwestern states, because of their mostly their own stupidity

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Speaker 1: of their governors, are in bad shape. And I think

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Speaker 1: we're going to get our arms around this again. I

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Speaker 1: think the vaccine is going to be enormously helpful. But

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Speaker 1: we've got six months of really tough stuff in front

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Speaker 1: of us where there. I mean, I'm seventy two years old.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to be really careful for the next

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Speaker 1: six months when the vaccine comes. People get a vaccine,

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Speaker 1: then they have to have a second one like a

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Speaker 1: month later. Yeah, right, and you think that how soon

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Speaker 1: if I get the vaccine. This is something I wanted

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Speaker 1: to clarify for people listening to the show. Let's say

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Speaker 1: I got a vaccine the first week of January, and

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Speaker 1: then a month la I have to get another vaccine,

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Speaker 1: but I still have to distance from people and wear masks. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you really should. The truth is you'll probably have some

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Speaker 1: minimal amount of partial immunity, which will vary greatly from

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Speaker 1: individual to individual, which is why the numbers of the

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Speaker 1: on the second vaccine really matter. This is a peculiar

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Speaker 1: virus which we have very little experience with heretofore. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there have been some you know, the Stars epidemic which

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Speaker 1: was very small compared to this, which we did not

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Speaker 1: have a lot of success with a vaccine, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't nearly as contagious as this, and I might add

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Speaker 1: the fatality rate was much higher than this one is,

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Speaker 1: so thank god I didn't know the contagion right. This

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Speaker 1: is very very contagious, and it's an odd virus which

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Speaker 1: human beings have very little experience with So that's most likely,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not a researcher, but that's most likely the

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Speaker 1: reason for the two vaccines. My guess is that there's

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Speaker 1: some immunity after the first shot. You really got to

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Speaker 1: get the second one. This is not something you want

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Speaker 1: to fool with. And then after the second shot, you

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Speaker 1: still have to distance in mask and keep or you

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Speaker 1: free to just move about in your safe I would

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Speaker 1: distance in mask. I wouldn't think I was free until

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Speaker 1: we get to hurt immunity. And that's about se vaccinated

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Speaker 1: or having had the disease. We know that most people

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Speaker 1: are immune after they get the disease. The problem is

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Speaker 1: we don't know how for how long. It could be

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Speaker 1: only three months. We don't know how long this vaccine

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Speaker 1: is gonna ask. You know, the flu vaccine you have

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Speaker 1: to take every year, and you have to take it

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Speaker 1: every year for two reasons. One, we don't know how

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Speaker 1: immune you are. And to the flu virus, which is

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Speaker 1: a different, holy different family of viruses, mutates like crazy

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Speaker 1: very quickly, so you may get an entirely different flu

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Speaker 1: riders coming the next year. That's why you get flu

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Speaker 1: shots every year. Uh, this we don't know that much

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Speaker 1: about we do know there's been one mutation. Interestingly enough,

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Speaker 1: despite Trump's chatter about China and all this, the virus

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Speaker 1: that most Americans have is actually a European mutation. And

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Speaker 1: most of the virus in New York actually came from Europe,

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Speaker 1: not from China, because it was we could trace it

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Speaker 1: to a European set of European travelers that actually came

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Speaker 1: back from Westchester County from a conference, and that was

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Speaker 1: the first case in New York. So most of the

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Speaker 1: virus in this country it's the European variant. Now, your

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Speaker 1: father was a Wall Street guy. My father was a

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Speaker 1: Wall Street guy. The thing about my parents is that

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Speaker 1: it makes them different is yes, we have a house

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Speaker 1: in East Hampton. We actually grew up here. I didn't

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Speaker 1: go to junior activities that the Maidstone Club. I went

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Speaker 1: to the East Hampton Boys Club and met everybody. My father, Yes,

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Speaker 1: he played golf all summer with the summer people, and

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Speaker 1: then he shot Coote and duck all winner with the

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Speaker 1: local guys. We went to a church that had a

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Speaker 1: lot of local people in the vestry. It wasn't you know,

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Speaker 1: the hoity toity whatever. So we really although I went

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Speaker 1: to school in New York City. Uh, this is the

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Speaker 1: only places I've ever voted at East Hampton, New York

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Speaker 1: and Vermont. And when the time came for you to

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Speaker 1: go to school and your father was a business guy

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Speaker 1: and you just had to go to medical school, what

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Speaker 1: prompted you to do that? Why? How do I? How?

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Speaker 1: I say this nicely? I worked on Wall Street for

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Speaker 1: a year and a half and I hated it. I

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Speaker 1: did it wasn't for you. Well, I was in college

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Speaker 1: during Vietnam, where presidents of both parties lives through their

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Speaker 1: teeth about the war, and fifty five thousand Americans were killed,

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Speaker 1: not to mention millions of Southeast Asians, and I had

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Speaker 1: given up and everything. I went to ski bummed and

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Speaker 1: Askeden and poured concrete and wash dishes for a year.

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Speaker 1: Decided that was not something I was going to be

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Speaker 1: happy with, and then I went to work on Wall Street.

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Speaker 1: Was the path of least resistance. I learned a great deal,

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Speaker 1: but I learned I didn't want to live in New

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Speaker 1: York and I didn't want to work on you know,

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Speaker 1: make my living pushing other people's money around. And so

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Speaker 1: I decided to go to medical school because a friend

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Speaker 1: of mine had gone and to do a post back.

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Speaker 1: I didn't you know. This was the sixties. There were

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Speaker 1: no requirements in college, so I hadn't taken a single

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Speaker 1: math or or science course while I was in college.

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Speaker 1: But I was good at it in high school, so

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Speaker 1: I went. I loved it, and I went to Albert

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Speaker 1: Einstein College of Medicine. I was at Token gem at

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Speaker 1: the at the Jewish medical school. It was great. I

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Speaker 1: learned a lot and met my wife. So what could

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Speaker 1: what work? Would go wrong? Right? And was Vermont something

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Speaker 1: that was a place you visited summer at ski to

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Speaker 1: something if you're going to do the East Coast skiing

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Speaker 1: at least? How did Vermont come into your life? Uh?

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Speaker 1: There was a family that uh sort of became my

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Speaker 1: second family when I was in college, and I used

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Speaker 1: to spend a lot of time in Bondville, Vermont, which

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Speaker 1: is a tiny little town near Stratton. I did ski

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Speaker 1: a lot, but I came to Vermont by chance. When

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Speaker 1: you leave medical school, you list your top ten choices

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Speaker 1: as internships. Vermont was my fourth, and I had three

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Speaker 1: high powered academic medical centers that I had applied to. Ironically,

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Speaker 1: tour in New York and one was in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't get any of them, so I got

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Speaker 1: my fourth choice. The computer matches that it's called the match,

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Speaker 1: and it's a big deal when you get out of

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Speaker 1: medical school. So I the match as signed me to Vermont.

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Speaker 1: And if it hadn't done that, then you never would

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Speaker 1: have heard of me. When did you start to become

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Speaker 1: more hyper aware of what was going on? And you

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Speaker 1: knew you had a passion for public affairs when you

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Speaker 1: were how old? Well, I thought I had a public

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Speaker 1: passion for public affairs when I was in high school

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Speaker 1: and I was elected to the student council sort of

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Speaker 1: by accident. And then I got disgusted with all the

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Speaker 1: stuff in Vietnam and the civil rights movement, by the

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Speaker 1: reaction of my own government. It didn't matter which party was,

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Speaker 1: there were pots on both of them. Uh. Then Watergate happened,

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Speaker 1: and the Democrats took a turn left and for better

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Speaker 1: government and try to get the corruption out of the government,

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Speaker 1: which they did to a large extent. Now it's behole

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Speaker 1: returned thanks to the right wing Supreme Court. But I

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Speaker 1: got interested in re interested in politics because I always

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Speaker 1: thought that the way that Democrats could rehab themselves was

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Speaker 1: to get a Southern run. And when Jimmy Carter ran

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Speaker 1: for president, I signed on And that's what got me

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Speaker 1: into politics. To campaign. Yeah, I signed up just as

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Speaker 1: an envelope liquor and a phone call maker. And then

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Speaker 1: I was mentored by two women who were twenty five

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Speaker 1: years older than I, who are sisters, and one of

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Speaker 1: whom was They both actually played a very active role

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Speaker 1: in reconstituting the Democratic Party in Vermont. Vermont did not

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Speaker 1: have a Democratic governor for a hundred and nine consecutive

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Speaker 1: years between eighteen fifty three and nineteen sixty eight. So

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Speaker 1: these two women had put the thing together and they

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Speaker 1: mentored me. And because I worked my butt off for Carter,

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Speaker 1: and I went to the convention and that was this

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Speaker 1: and then I became the chair of the county and

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Speaker 1: that's worked my way out. What office did you hold

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Speaker 1: prior to being governor? I was lieutenant governor for five years,

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Speaker 1: and then before that I was in the State House

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Speaker 1: for two terms. When you have a political passion from

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Speaker 1: when you're you know, during the sixties and Watergate and

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Speaker 1: Vietnam and so Furth, and then you decide to run,

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Speaker 1: what is it that makes you decide to give up

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Speaker 1: practicing medicine to run for politics. Well, I didn't. Everything

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Speaker 1: is part time up there, lieutenant governor. So I was

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Speaker 1: practicing medicine until August fourteenth, and I was seeing a

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Speaker 1: patient and the nurse knocks on the door and says,

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Speaker 1: excuse me, I have to interrupt you for the governor's offices.

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Speaker 1: On the line, I took a call in this quavering voice,

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Speaker 1: to inform you that the governor has died of a

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Speaker 1: heart attack, and you're the governor. That was the end

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Speaker 1: of my medical practice. Oh my god. So that's how

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Speaker 1: I decided. I actually decided not to leave medicine because

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Speaker 1: it was sort of my turn to run for governor.

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Speaker 1: There were two other people that wanted it, and I

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Speaker 1: thought to myself, you know, I'm gonna get into a primary,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to close my practice for five months,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna have a practice to come back

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Speaker 1: to if I don't win. So I decided to run

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Speaker 1: for a third term, which is again, lieutenant governor in

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Speaker 1: Vermont's a part time job. And then the the governorship.

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Speaker 1: It's a four year term two years, the governor's two

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Speaker 1: years in the months two years, and I love it

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Speaker 1: that way. People keep wanting to change it. That is

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Speaker 1: laziness on the part of the public who doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to hear all those stupid ads. I don't blame him,

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Speaker 1: And it's laziness in the part of the politicians who

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Speaker 1: don't want to face the public. Donald Trump is a

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Speaker 1: good reason not to have four year terms. You can

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Speaker 1: get rid of me anytime you want in two years,

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Speaker 1: and it's happened lots of time. So I'm a big

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Speaker 1: fan of two year terms. Now. It may be impractical

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Speaker 1: in a place like New York, which is so big,

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Speaker 1: but in the smaller states, I believe you actually get

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Speaker 1: more done faster with two year terms because you're accountable

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Speaker 1: every minute. How far into his term was the government

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Speaker 1: when he died, Well, he'd been a governor for four

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Speaker 1: terms before that, and then he'd gone and then come back,

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Speaker 1: and he was eight months into his term. He was

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Speaker 1: eight months And when you in that state, do they

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Speaker 1: have to have a special election to have another about

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Speaker 1: the term? Yeah, but that's another advantage of if you

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Speaker 1: don't get you know, people who weren't really elected to

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Speaker 1: serve for the majority. So I faced the voters, you know,

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Speaker 1: sixteen months later or whatever. And then I was elected

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Speaker 1: to five terms on my own. So you finished his term,

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Speaker 1: and then what happened By the time you finished his

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Speaker 1: first term, You decide you like it and you want

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Speaker 1: to stay. Yeah. Well, I was really interested in healthcare.

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Speaker 1: It was interesting, Alec after a week of you know,

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Speaker 1: drinking water out of a fire hose and being brief

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Speaker 1: because you know, I knew nothing about nothing, and now

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Speaker 1: I gotta worry about the banks. And it was during

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Speaker 1: the one of the recessions, and I've got a zillion things.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's got to come and tell me what they're doing

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Speaker 1: and how the government works. And so I'm going through

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Speaker 1: all this and I don't of a moment to myself

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Speaker 1: and the states and shocked because this giant political figure

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Speaker 1: has suddenly dropped dead at the age of sixty three

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Speaker 1: and about two weeks and I had a couple of

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Speaker 1: hours to myself in my office by myself, and I thought, Wow,

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Speaker 1: you never expected this. What do you really want to do?

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Speaker 1: So I wrote down five things that I thought were

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Speaker 1: really important. The top was universal health care and Jim Hunt,

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Speaker 1: who was governor of North Carolina for sixteen years. He

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Speaker 1: took me aside one time and he said, he looked

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Speaker 1: me in the eye and he said, uh, you know

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Speaker 1: what we do is urgent. Uh. And I looked at him, nodded,

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Speaker 1: and he said, and ten percent is important. And I

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Speaker 1: never forgot that. So every day be while I was

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Speaker 1: in the office, I never left when on the days

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Speaker 1: I was in the office without pulling out my drawer

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Speaker 1: and looking at the five things I put down in

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Speaker 1: that day, two weeks into my unexpected term, to make

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Speaker 1: sure I've done at least one thing that further one

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Speaker 1: of those causes, because every day in your life, no

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Speaker 1: matter what job you have, the urgent, oh ways overcomes

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Speaker 1: the important and you get to the end of your

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Speaker 1: life and you haven't done the things that are important

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Speaker 1: because you focused on the urgent things all the time.

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Speaker 1: I teach a lot now and I advocate to my

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Speaker 1: students write that list down, because even at your age,

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Speaker 1: there's stuff you think is important and stuff do you

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Speaker 1: think is urgent, and you've got to be able to

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Speaker 1: tell the difference, and and the important stuff is going

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Speaker 1: to change as you grow older. But if you don't

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Speaker 1: do that you're gonna spend all your time in the

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Speaker 1: urgin and none of the stuff that's important. I'm Alec

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Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. If you

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Speaker 1: like conversations about politics, check out our archives for more

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Speaker 1: in depth conversations with interesting people, like Good Morning America's

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Speaker 1: George Stephanopoulos. When I left the White House in early

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Speaker 1: I was I guess I was what thirt thirty six?

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Speaker 1: Then I felt much older and I you know why?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean White House hears are dog years multiplied.

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Speaker 1: Here more of my conversation with George Stephanopolis a Here's

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Speaker 1: the Thing dot org. After the break, I talked to

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Speaker 1: Howard Dean about what he thinks Biden needs to tackle. First.

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Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to hear what Howard Dean makes of Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden's plans so far. I'm very pleased with what Biden's doing.

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Speaker 1: He's not my style. I think I wanted somebody who

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Speaker 1: was about forty because I think I'm desperate to turn

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Speaker 1: all this over to a new generation. I think my

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Speaker 1: generations hung around too long. But I think Biden was

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Speaker 1: a great candidate for for what we needed. I actually

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Speaker 1: thought Bernie was gonna win. I think what happened was

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Speaker 1: first we had Trump, who was just chaos every day's

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Speaker 1: reality television, and then we had COVID, which is scared

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Speaker 1: of the living daylights out of people, and I think

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Speaker 1: people just thought, jeez, I really like Bernie, and I

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Speaker 1: think we really need change, but we're just gonna get

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Speaker 1: four more years of confrontation. Although Bernie is a bit

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Speaker 1: very different than Trump, because Bernie's honest and Trump isn't.

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Speaker 1: But I think that that's when they decided they wanted Biden,

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Speaker 1: and I think he was probably the best nominee we

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Speaker 1: could have had. I think Biden's no nonsense, which is great.

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Speaker 1: I like his cabinet appointments. He has got to focus

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Speaker 1: on both the urgent and the important. The urgent is,

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Speaker 1: let's try to heal the country. Let's put confidence back

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Speaker 1: in government because there is almost none now. But the

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Speaker 1: important is, we really do have to have a universal

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Speaker 1: healthcare program that works for every American. Is ludicrous for

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Speaker 1: the United States of America to be the only democracy

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Speaker 1: in the in the world that doesn't have a universal

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Speaker 1: healthcare program. This is absurd, and he talked a little

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Speaker 1: bit about some of the things. I personally believe that

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Speaker 1: the way to do it is allow everybody to sign

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Speaker 1: up for Medicare. What we did this in my state

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Speaker 1: in Vermont, because at the top of the list, even

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Speaker 1: in the state of Vermont, was universal health care for me.

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Speaker 1: So my second year we put in get rid of

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Speaker 1: all these pre existing conditions. You can't charge anybody more

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Speaker 1: than above what you charge your least expensive patient. And

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Speaker 1: we had a huge Medicaid expand thanks to Bill Clinton,

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Speaker 1: so that every child in my state for two generations

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Speaker 1: has grown up with health insurance. Everybody under eighteen is

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Speaker 1: eligible for Medicaid essentially, or unless they're over poverty. You

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Speaker 1: can do that as a state. What you can't do

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Speaker 1: is say, here, what's going to do a single payer?

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Speaker 1: Maybe single payer is the right thing to do, but

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Speaker 1: the change is too fast. If Jolly Verman hadn't changed

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Speaker 1: his vote under Obamacare and gotten rid of the ability

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Speaker 1: to sign up for Medicare, the so called public option,

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Speaker 1: I think three quoters of the people in this country

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Speaker 1: would be on Medicare right now, because Medicare is a

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Speaker 1: much better program than the health insurance companies are the

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Speaker 1: people that are opposed to universal health care. Is through

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Speaker 1: any argument that they make that make sense to you. No, none,

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Speaker 1: I'm not. Look, you can be opposed to government run healthcare,

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Speaker 1: that's a reasonable argument. I don't happen to think. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think Medicare does a better job the insurance companies do.

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Speaker 1: But to say that you shouldn't have universal healthcare, that's

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Speaker 1: the argument of people who have what they need and

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Speaker 1: don't give a damn about anybody else. And I have

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Speaker 1: no patience for that. I'm always curious if the COVID

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Speaker 1: has proven anything. It's is how linked we are, you know, biologically.

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Speaker 1: Why don't they recognize that it's in their interests as

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Speaker 1: well for other people to be covered. You know something,

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Speaker 1: most people are not opposed to universal healthcare, including most

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Speaker 1: Trump voters. The problem is what the Republicans do is

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Speaker 1: basically when on the worst instincts of people, they catered racism, homophobia.

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Speaker 1: What they sell is hate and that overcomes a lot

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Speaker 1: of things. Uh, if you pull most Americans, they would

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Speaker 1: really like a universal healthcare program, and that includes most

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Speaker 1: of the Trump voters. You know, there's a guy from

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Speaker 1: Georgia who is married to one of my favorite students,

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Speaker 1: And we were talking one day and he says, you know,

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Speaker 1: do you like Trump voters? And I had to think

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Speaker 1: about it, and I said yes, because most of them

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Speaker 1: used to vote for me. These are working people. These

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Speaker 1: are not I mean, yes, you get the lunatics that

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Speaker 1: are in the paper all the time. These are not

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Speaker 1: horrible people. These are people who are working people and

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Speaker 1: they and Trump brings out the worst in them, but

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Speaker 1: they're most of them are hard working people that don't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of money. They understand that universal healthcare

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Speaker 1: program would be helpful. So what do the Republicans do.

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Speaker 1: They crank up homophobia, they crank up racism, They invent

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Speaker 1: all these these issues that are tangential, and they get

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Speaker 1: them so emotionally invested. Fear is what's driving them. Look,

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Speaker 1: if you're a white guy in rural America and you

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Speaker 1: lose your job when you're fifty years old, there's a

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Speaker 1: pretty good chance you're never going to get another one. Now,

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Speaker 1: black and brown people know that feeling very well. White

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Speaker 1: folks have never felt that before. So they're scared to death.

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Speaker 1: And that's what the Republicans sell, is fear and hate.

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Speaker 1: And I'm done with the Republicans. I think they're done

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Speaker 1: as a party too. I don't think you can survive.

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Speaker 1: Either they're not going to survive or the country is

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Speaker 1: not going to survive. You can't self fear and hate

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Speaker 1: and have that be a leadership trait in a great country.

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Speaker 1: When you ran for president, you had your fifty state strategy. Correct, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I did, but at the fifty it wasn't called that

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Speaker 1: until I became chairman of the Democratic Party. And what

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Speaker 1: do you think what worked for Obama? Because Obama basically

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Speaker 1: employed that, correct? Yeah, what worked for Obama is he

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Speaker 1: took a lot of stuff. Look, I don't take credit

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Speaker 1: for all the great stuff we did in my campaign.

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Speaker 1: The truth is we had no money. We had a

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Speaker 1: ton of we had a very powerful message, and we

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Speaker 1: had all the twenty three year olds in the country

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Speaker 1: were for us, and they invented all this stuff. I

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Speaker 1: had no idea what we were doing or what I

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Speaker 1: was doing. As it turned out, well, it was the

431
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 1: small donations, and it was it was the organization, it

432
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 1: was meet up, it was all these things on the net.

433
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 1: I mean, they were the kids that worked in my

434
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,120
Speaker 1: campaign was their first campaign and They were incredible. They

435
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,680
Speaker 1: revolutionized campaigning. When I took over the Democratic Party after

436
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,840
Speaker 1: I didn't win the nomination, I hired them. They had

437
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,719
Speaker 1: started as company called Blue State Digital, and because we

438
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 1: had to bring the whole party up to snuff in

439
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,119
Speaker 1: terms of social media and all that stuff. And then

440
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 1: Obama hired them away from me in two thousand six.

441
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 1: So Obama had two things. Besides being an incredibly charismatic candidate,

442
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 1: which he was, he had two other things going. For one,

443
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,159
Speaker 1: this had been tried for a campaign cycle and it

444
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 1: was successful, and the stuff that wasn't successful and went

445
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: fell by the wayside. And too, he had David Pluff.

446
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 1: Obama himself is incredibly personally disciplined, and so is Pluff.

447
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,440
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden you have all these kids

448
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 1: who had no discipline at all, because I didn't was

449
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 1: not terribly discipline, and trip he certainly wasn't um. And

450
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, these kids now have to report

451
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 1: to somebody who's maybe a little old school, but who

452
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: has sees the big picture, which is Pluff. I truly

453
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 1: believe that pluf knew where every single Obama voter in

454
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 1: the country wasn't fantasy figured out with these kids, how

455
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: to get them all out And this is of course

456
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,159
Speaker 1: a happy ending to this after the Obama campaign that

457
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: these kids sold Blue State Digital for a hundred million dollars.

458
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 1: Convenient good for them. When you decide to run, I mean,

459
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,879
Speaker 1: I'm always curious about people who run for these state

460
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: wide offices. You know, something big like governor or senator

461
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 1: or the presidency office? Is the is the big brass

462
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 1: ring when you run for that? Um, does someone tell

463
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 1: you you're ready or did you tell yourself you were ready?

464
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 1: Or both? I'll tell you exactly how I knew. I

465
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 1: had been in the governorship longer than anybody else in

466
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: the state, and I'd serve a long time. And We've

467
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: done some pretty extraordinary things. Universal healthcare, we did the

468
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 1: equivalent of pre K with something called success by six

469
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: or zero to three kids, and dropped child abused down dramatically.

470
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 1: And the most controversial thing I did was signed the

471
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,199
Speaker 1: first marriage equality build in the country. We had to

472
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: call it civil unions. In no way I could have

473
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 1: gotten a marriage a bill that said marriage out of

474
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,160
Speaker 1: the House, but we did it, and it essentially was marriage.

475
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 1: And I had to wear a bulletproof vest for my

476
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 1: last campaign, and I had to run in that campaign

477
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: because if I hadn't uh and quit after we passed it,

478
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 1: then that was essentially became a referendum on civil unions,

479
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 1: which you know, I didn't want to lose that and

480
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: I didn't I wanted by D twenty three votes. So

481
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: I was done. There was no way I was getting

482
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,959
Speaker 1: reelected to anything. And I just thought what next? And

483
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: we had two senators that have been there for a

484
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,679
Speaker 1: long time and I wasn't. I didn't really want to

485
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: be in the Senate anyway, So what else is there? Politics?

486
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: And that's what I did. And when you decided to

487
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 1: run and you didn't win the nomination, whose idea was it?

488
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 1: You to run the d n C. That was my

489
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 1: idea and everybody else hated it. I didn't get a

490
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: single vote from inside the Beltway. My vote, my listener

491
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 1: was a classic grassrooms. I was elected by the states,

492
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: And why do you think that is? Why did they

493
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: vote for you? And the insiders wouldn't because they were

494
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 1: fed up with the inside the Beltway people. Because the

495
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: inside the Beltway people don't know anything about campaigns. Look

496
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 1: at them. They all end up running campaigns after that

497
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 1: they were successful fifteen years before, and they're selling all

498
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 1: this crap that was good fifteen years ago and elected

499
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: somebody and it's no good anymore. And they're always getting

500
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 1: making a ton of money. When I got to the

501
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 1: d n C, there was no data platform, not because

502
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: Terry McCulloch was an idiot, because he actually left me

503
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 1: with the surplus, which is unheard of after a presidential campaign,

504
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: just because the Washington consultants sold him something was totally inadequate.

505
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,479
Speaker 1: So I basically ran against the establishment, which I had

506
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: been doing in my presidential campaign, and it was very successful.

507
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 1: I didn't get any votes from inside the Beltway, and

508
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: three quarters of the members are from the States, and

509
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: that's where I got my votes. And then the last campaign,

510
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 1: I ran a for profit corporation called the Democratic Data Exchange.

511
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: And the reason I was asked I don't know anything

512
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: about data. The reason I was asked to run it

513
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: is because I could get along with both the insiders

514
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 1: and the outsiders. After after the fifties, States Strategy gave

515
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: us back the presidency, the Senate in the House, which

516
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: none of which we possessed. When I took over as chairman,

517
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: and we had nothing, and by two thousand six we'd

518
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: had the House in the Senate, and by two thousand

519
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: eight we had Obama's president and had to trifecta. Was

520
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 1: this something you thought was going to happen when Obama

521
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: want did you expect you we get invited to commit

522
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: to that administration? I was hoping I would. What job

523
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: would you want? Probably h h s. I'd had a

524
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 1: few words with a person who turned out to be

525
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: the chief and staff, and I had a few words

526
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: with Obama too, you know, like, I don't not famous

527
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: for hiding my opinions, and I'm not to go along

528
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: to get along guy. I'm a guy who says what

529
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: they think, and I think, you know, we ought to

530
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: do what we can. It's not that I'm not a

531
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 1: team player. I am, but I'm not a team player

532
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: to the extent that you have to lie to be

533
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: a team player. And I don't play Washington games. And

534
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: this is the same true with Biden. Do you think

535
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: if you were invited to come and enjoined Biden's administration anyway,

536
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 1: would you consider that? Well? I don't. I won't be invited,

537
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: and I don't feel bad about it. Um, I really

538
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: truly think that it's time for a lot of other

539
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 1: new people to come in, and Biden hasn't done all

540
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: of that, but he's done some of it. Uh. He

541
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: has a very diverse cabinet, which I think is absolutely critical.

542
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I am so pleased to see Janet Yellen

543
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: as the head of the Treasury Department. I'm thrilled to

544
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 1: see Gena McCarthy, who's been overlooked for a long time,

545
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 1: going to be his chief climate change person. She really

546
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: knows what she's doing. Tina Flanois is going to be

547
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris's chief of staff. She is a real find. So,

548
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: I mean, he's got some really good people who are

549
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: about to take over for him, and I think that's great.

550
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: Look again, sure it would be fun job to have.

551
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: I really think somebody's who's forty two should have that job,

552
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: not somebody who's seventy two. So when two thousand sixteen comes,

553
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: Trump wins, here you are. You ran for president, you

554
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: ran the d n C. You've had a successful political career.

555
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: What happened to Hillary Clinton in two thousand sixteen, Hillary

556
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 1: actually was incredibly helpful, So you have to know a

557
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: little bit. What about what I've been doing relatively quietly.

558
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: So there was a woman named Judith McHale who used

559
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 1: to run the Discovery Channel for fourteen years, and another

560
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: woman who's a big organizer in Silicon Valley named Amy

561
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: Raw and Judith is very close to Hillary. She worked

562
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 1: for her at the State Department. And we came up

563
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: with this notion that instead of funding the traditional d

564
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: n C, we ought to look at what this young

565
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: generation is doing. And what the young generation is doing

566
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: will not come as a surprise to you. They all

567
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: have groups that does certain things. Some of them train people,

568
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: some of them recruit members of minority communities to run

569
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: for office, some of them only recruit local officials. All

570
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: these things need to be done by the d n C.

571
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 1: But this is a generation that doesn't trust institutions, so

572
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: they start their own. Now there's some problems with this generation.

573
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: One of them is I call it cooperation without commitment.

574
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: So if they if they have a startup and they disagree,

575
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: instead of working it out, they go each start their

576
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: own start up and say nice to work with you, etcetera, etcetera.

577
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: But what we did was to vet them. Judith would

578
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: vet them from a business point of view, I'd vote

579
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: to vet them from a political point of view, because

580
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: there's zillions of these institutions and try to pick best

581
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: in class, who could do tech best, who could do

582
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: local officials best, who did Congress best? So we picked

583
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: eleven institutions. One collective pack taught African Americans how to

584
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: raise money essentially from white people, which were was very

585
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: hard for them to do. Another one was Run for Something,

586
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: recruited young people to run, especially for local offices, often

587
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: members of minority and communities and women, not exclusively. Uh.

588
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: There was a training organization based in Chicago, Vote Latino.

589
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: So there were eleven organizations that we picked that circumscribed

590
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: the functions of the Democratic Committee, and Hillary helped us

591
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,239
Speaker 1: raise the money and of course raised most of it

592
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: from her funders, who had no understanding what we were doing,

593
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: but they loved Hillary, and we raised a hell of

594
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: a lot of money. She raised a hell of a

595
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: lot of money, and it went to Indivisible and Swing

596
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: Left and all these really good organizations. And that's what

597
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: Hillary did for two years, and then the second two

598
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: years I spent doing Democratic Data Exchange, and she spent

599
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: raising money for both these organizations and some other ones.

600
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: So it's this is not meant to supplant the d

601
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: n C. This is meant to do things for the

602
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: d n C that they can no longer do because

603
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: the a new generation has come forth and does everything

604
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: differently in politics. Basically, it took the stuff that started

605
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: my campaign, started in Hillary's campaign in two thousand sixteen,

606
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: some of it, and is bringing it into the twenty

607
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: one century and then trying to get the d n

608
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: C used to working with all these groups, which they

609
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: have to a pretty good extent as allowed by what's

610
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: left of campaign finance reform. Do you think she ran

611
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: a good campaign in two thousand and sixteen. No, I

612
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: don't think she ran a particularly good campaign, but she

613
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: did a hell of a lot for people since that

614
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: time to help Biden win and and to reconstitute the

615
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: Democratic Party. Do you think that the electoral college should

616
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: be eliminated? Yes, playing and simple yes. And I also

617
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: think we ought to have ranked choice voting do Yeah.

618
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: We had in Burlington for a while until one of

619
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: the Republican candidates claimed that his rival got in because

620
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: of that, and the rival turned out to be crooked.

621
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: It was a progressive at the time, and so we

622
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: got took it off the ballot, We're probably gonna put

623
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: it on now. But I'll tell you why. It does

624
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: two things. First of all, you don't have to have

625
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: a runoff. You get people again. You give people choices.

626
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: I felt good about the mayor's race that I voted

627
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: in in Burlington because my fourth choice one, but I

628
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: had voted for that person. The other thing, if it's

629
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: ranked choice voting, let's just say you and I are running.

630
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: I need your second place choices. So I'm not gonna

631
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: spend a lot of money running around telling everybody what

632
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: a jerk you are, because if I do all, your

633
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: second place people are gonna put me last, or your

634
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: joy people are gonna last. It's not perfect, but you

635
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: run much more civilized campaign and decent campaigns. If you

636
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: have ranked choice voting, then you do in this winner

637
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: take all minority, you know you can win with thirty

638
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: six per cent or of the vote. So those are

639
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: the two big reforms I think we need is ranked

640
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: choice voting and getting rid of the electoral college. What

641
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: do you think, Well, depends how you do it. There's

642
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: a bill called National Popular Vote, which has passed in

643
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: states controlling about nine votes. If they get to to seventy,

644
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: the electoral college is essentially gone unless the Court Supreme Court,

645
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: which of course is a function essentially offshoot of the

646
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: Republican Party these days. What it does Vermont's passed it,

647
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: New York's past It is say, if somebody wins the

648
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,719
Speaker 1: popular vote in the country, that's where your electoral votes go.

649
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: And it takes place when enough states to add to

650
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: to seventy have passed this ballot. Former chair of the

651
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: Democratic National Committee, Howard Deem. If you're enjoying this conversation,

652
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 1: be sure to subscribe to Here's the Thing on the

653
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

654
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,719
Speaker 1: your podcasts. When we come back, I talked to Howard

655
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: Dean about one of the most urgent issues for the

656
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: future of our democracy, campaign finance reform. After the break,

657
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here is the Thing.

658
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: My guest today is Howard Dean. Given the deep political

659
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: divisions in this country, I wanted to know what Dean

660
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: thinks about the struggle Republicans will face regarding the future

661
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: of their party after Donald Trump. There's a lot of

662
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: parently decent people who have been voting Republican for a

663
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: long time who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Trump.

664
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: I mean, there are still a lot of decent Republicans.

665
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: The problem is none of them are in the Senate,

666
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: with the possible exception of Mitt Romney. There are people

667
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: I like in the Republican Party the Senate um, but

668
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: I don't respect them because I don't think they have

669
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: a spine between them. I'd like Bob Corker a lot

670
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: and Trump deep six Tim and that's why they're so

671
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: terrified the Republican Party. This happens to all politicians, and

672
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: the Democrats are not exempt from this. They care more

673
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: about their job than they do about the country, and

674
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: that's a big problem. You shouldn't be in. You know.

675
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: I'm actually for going back to the way the original

676
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: Congress was, which is the way the legislature is in Vermontest.

677
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: This is not a full time job. You better have

678
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: another employment. And I'm for term limits in Congress. Not

679
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: because I like term limits, but because when you have

680
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: the degree of corruption that is going on in the

681
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: Republican Party, although I'm sure it's going on in the

682
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: in the Democratic Party in the past, you know, we're

683
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: not immune from this kind of stuff, then it's time

684
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: to try to fix that corruption. The corruption is unbelievable,

685
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: partly because of Citizens United, which is the most dangerous

686
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: decision that was made since dread Scott. The Supreme Court

687
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: has totally corrupted billions of dollars of dark money going

688
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: to the Federalist Society, who then serves up the highest

689
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: scentage of people rated unqualified by the American Bar Association

690
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: ever to be seated in the courts. This country is

691
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: in a lot more trouble than just Donald Trump. And

692
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: we've created this mess ourselves. Yes, I believe the Republicans

693
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: are more responsible for the than the Democrats are. But

694
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: the Democrats need to get their act together. And we

695
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: need desperately needed generational change. Uh. And we need less politics.

696
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: And the way I think you get less politics is

697
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: don't make this a full time job. You know, pay

698
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: people decently, but you know you've gotta have another job.

699
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: I mean, campaign finance reform has been my number one issue.

700
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: And it's what's if you're a proponent of campaign finance reform,

701
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: if you're sworn to that cause, it's a it's a

702
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: lonely task because it's the least sexy issue you could

703
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: possibly be working on, right, but it's the most critical

704
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: one for the country. It's the lynch pin of all

705
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: the problems of this country. Yep. It sure is. When

706
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: you reference term limits and someone said to me, well,

707
00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 1: I mean always that conversation, people would say, well, elections

708
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: themselves are termaments. I said, no, no, no no, no, fair

709
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: elections are like term limits. I said, right now, incumbency

710
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: is such a daunting power. We need term limits because

711
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: campaigns are not fair, because we don't have And I

712
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: was working with people on the nine Sunday's program and

713
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: Marvin Calb or his brother Bernard Calb at the Shorenstein

714
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: School at Harvard and then talking about having not ceilings

715
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: of spending, but floors. So if you're in a statewide

716
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: race and media saturation for that state for senate governor,

717
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: we exempt lieutenant governor because that's more ceremonial. In a

718
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: lot of states, we exempt controller and a g. But

719
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: you see the two senate races. In the gubernatorial race,

720
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 1: what is media saturation in that state? If it's thirty

721
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 1: million dollars for you to penetrate the entire media platform,

722
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: and you you gotta make sure, each candidate, there's thirty

723
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: million dollars. Now you could oppose me and you could

724
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: spend eighty. You could spend what Bloomberg, you could spend

725
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: a hundred. But as long as I have thirty, I

726
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 1: have a base of what equal saturation were good to go.

727
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: I completely believe in public financing of campaigns completely. Well,

728
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: you know what, solar are A lot of voters this

729
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: is are seing in Arizona. They actually passed this by

730
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: Arizona was a pretty conservative state. This is the first

731
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: time it went to going to Democratic for quite a while.

732
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: I think since Bill Clinton and two so Arizona they

733
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: had they passed public finance and campaigns by referendum. They

734
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: had two governors, both of whom I think served two terms.

735
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, Janet Apolitano and the Republican governor I

736
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: forgot which one it was who won under that system.

737
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 1: And the Chamber of Commerce and the labor unions got

738
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: together and tried to overthrow it because these are two

739
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: big influence groups, one from each side, and they spent

740
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: a lot of money on a referendum to get rid

741
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 1: of it, and they lost. Because the public likes public financing,

742
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: because it gets the corruption out of politics. And there

743
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: was a complicated system because of the free speech component

744
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: as you described, So you can actually spend more, but

745
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: everybody has a minimum amount that they can get. And

746
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: it worked fine until John Roberts came along and then

747
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: Citizens United passed and then that was thrown out. Well,

748
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: like they said, the problem is if if someone can

749
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: spend an unlimited amount of money to run for office

750
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: of actions speech, the line was then the person with

751
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: the most cash speaks the loudest. And that's the problem

752
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: of this country is that the things that Citizen United

753
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: are protecting are you know, rich mail oriented, Christian oriented,

754
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: Wall Street oriented. Everything that happens in this country. Now,

755
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 1: to me, that significant is about stimulating the Tao. It

756
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: doesn't get past and washing unless it stimulates the Tao.

757
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: And that's that's the problem. Well, yeah, I mean that's true.

758
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: The idea that corporations are people and have the same

759
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,439
Speaker 1: free speech rights, this is graceful, and this is put

760
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: on by supposedly serious jurists. And there who do you

761
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: think gives money to the federalist society? Rich people who

762
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 1: who are really conservative and big corporations and they don't

763
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: have to declare where the money is coming from. That

764
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: is the classic Jane Mayer definition of dark money. So,

765
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: you know capitalism, which I happen to believe in because

766
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: I think it fits our sort of species well, that

767
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: it helps to be greedy, which we are as a species,

768
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,040
Speaker 1: and it helps us to be altruistic. But capitalism is

769
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: in trouble, not because it's a terrible system, is because

770
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: it's at the extreme end of where it should be.

771
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 1: We need better regulations so that everybody can benefit. It

772
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what system you have, whether socialism or communism

773
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: or capitalism. Every system fails if you don't have a moderate,

774
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: reasonable place in the middle where it can work. And

775
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: capitalism is not there now. John Roberts bears much of

776
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 1: the responsibility for that. Well, we need capitalism with regulations.

777
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: We need capitalism with some teeth from regulatory teeth. You're right,

778
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: people need to pay more tax as, corporations need to

779
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: pay more taxes. But we want people to be competitive.

780
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: It's the political aspect of the fact that money is

781
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: speech that kills this. Because as long as my vote

782
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 1: was just as important as the chairman of General Motors,

783
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: that was great. But the truth is the chairman of

784
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: General Motors can write a million dollar check to some

785
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: dark money organization and my vote doesn't make any difference

786
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: if you do that. And that's where we are today,

787
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 1: and we can't be there if we want to survive

788
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: as a country. We may not. There's no guarantee that

789
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: America survives or any other country survives. It's to us,

790
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: and we're gonna have to be much more serious about

791
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: how seriously we take government. That that, to me is

792
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: the most important lesson of the Trump administration was how

793
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: close we came to this country actually perishing, which now

794
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: we're not done yet. Look, Trump is the you know,

795
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: the worst of the worst and all this stuff, but

796
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: the hard work has not been done, and it wasn't

797
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: done by the Democrats either, and we had a chance

798
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 1: to do it and we didn't do it. So, yes,

799
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: Trump is a despicable person. I think he's the symptom,

800
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: not the cause. It's assumed that you know, Biden is

801
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: up there, he's older, and he's about to begin a

802
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: four year term in one of the most grueling jobs

803
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: known to man, and whether he is willing, whether he's

804
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: able to seek a second term after that, is to

805
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: be revealed. But at the same time, he has a

806
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: young woman who is the vice president elect, and I'm wondering,

807
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: when you're in that position and there's as much of

808
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: a chance with him as anyone, that he won't seek

809
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: a second term. He might not be willing to do

810
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: that when he's eighty two years old four years from now.

811
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: Do you think that everybody is assiduously grooming her to

812
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 1: run for that job. I'm here. I'm sure she's insiduously

813
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: grooming herself. But that doesn't look I mean, that's not

814
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: a guarantee of anything. I guarantee you that if Joe

815
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: doesn't run for a second term, there'll be a primary,

816
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: and Kamala Harris will have the advantage in that primary.

817
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: Everybody will know who she is, but people are gonna

818
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: come after her. But look, the second term of a

819
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: president is a referendum on the president. That's why Biden

820
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: was such a great candidate this time, because it was

821
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: pretty non controversial and this was all about Trump, and

822
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: if it was gonna be all about Trump, we were

823
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: gonna win. So the second term for Joe Biden will

824
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: be all about Joe. If he chooses not to win,

825
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: then win, then Kamala will bear the burden and the

826
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: credit for whatever they do. Well. I'm sure there'll be

827
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: a primary if Biden chooses not to run, and I

828
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: think if Biden is healthy, he'll run. Your intelligence and

829
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: the breadth of your career and all the many different

830
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: areas you know about. I'm sorry that you're not an

831
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: American political life right now, but you're probably having a

832
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: great time right Um, and myself. If you have to quarantine,

833
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 1: Vermont is a good place to do it. The people

834
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: are great, and we're great to each other, and it's

835
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: a real community. Howard Dean and I talked in mid December,

836
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: but given the unrest before the inauguration, I wanted to

837
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: call him to get an update. So, of course, what

838
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: happened recently in the Capitol. What was your first reaction

839
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: when you saw all that going on? It was pretty

840
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: much discussed and horror. Um, And actually my reaction is

841
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: stronger today than it was when I saw it because

842
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: of the loss of life. I mean, these people committed murder.

843
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: These are enemies of the United States. I think the

844
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 1: talk of unity from the Republicans is just an attempt

845
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: to avoid responsibility. I'm all for unifying the country. But

846
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: condition is the first act of unity, and so I'd

847
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: like to see a little less posturing and bs and

848
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: a little more seriousness about what's good for the country. Otherwise, Um,

849
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,439
Speaker 1: you know, I am convinced that we can put down

850
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: this insurrection if we need to, and I'm hoping it

851
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: will come to that. But if it does, that's what

852
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: we have to do. Do you think that this is

853
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: just a preluded more of this to come in state

854
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: houses and so forth. Here's the only way to get

855
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: rid of this. People have said, well, you have to

856
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 1: improve the conditions in rural America. That's true, but you

857
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: can improve what with the New York Times ridiculously called

858
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: racial conservatism. I mean, in other words, racism, which for

859
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: some reason the New York Times didn't want to put

860
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: in the paper. This is gonna go away with cognitive dissonance.

861
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:29,959
Speaker 1: That is, the people who do these things are gonna

862
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: lose their jobs if they continue to behave like this.

863
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: Some of them are gonna lose their lives because we're

864
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: not having this again, and this next time it will

865
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: be The National Guard is a much better trained than

866
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: the Capitol Police, and eventually this is gonna go away. This,

867
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: this embracement of conspiracy theorist is not because people are

868
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: stupid or un educated. It's because they have to rearrange

869
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: the facts of life because they feel like they're not

870
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: doing well. Okay, we can help them do better, but

871
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 1: first they have to rearrange the facts of life, because

872
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 1: you can't do well if you have an alternative universe

873
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: that doesn't match the facts of life. We have more

874
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: and more people who were saying I need the government

875
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: to help me, and now we are trillions of dollars

876
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: more in debt from writing checks to people to help

877
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: them survive the COVID. Do you think we get to

878
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: a point where we can't afford it anymore, We're really

879
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: going to be in serious economic and financial trouble. Well,

880
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: we would be in serious or economic financial trouble if

881
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: we weren't putting out all that money. I mean, you know,

882
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: the unemployment rate among women is going up seventy that's shocking,

883
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: just shocking. Um. So this is a true economic danger.

884
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: The problem is we had the most incompetent, corrupt president

885
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: in the history of the United States at the helm

886
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: when all has happened. Um, So, we can dig our

887
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: way out of this. From an economic point of view,

888
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: it's going to take some time. I think we can

889
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: do that. Our economic system is still stronger than anybody

890
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: else's in the world. Uh. The concern that I have

891
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: is how do you tamp down this very small minority

892
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: of crackpots who are willing to do whatever it takes.

893
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 1: What's the situation in that regard in Vermont? Um, it

894
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 1: was so far. You know, Vermont is not this kind

895
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: of a place. This is a real community where we

896
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: actually care about each other and respect each other. The

897
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: Republican governor here called for Trump to leave office after

898
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: this happened. So, I mean, we were Vermonter's first and

899
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: Republicans and Democrats second. But the situation is and but

900
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: there've always been people like this. I remember when I

901
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: did civil unions for the first time in the history

902
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 1: of the country, gay people could essentially get married. And

903
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: I had some some of that. I mean, I had

904
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: fifty year old ladies using the F bomb on me

905
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: when I was campaigning and stuff. Um, but uh, that's

906
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: a minority of people, and they're kept in check because

907
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: the state doesn't put up with it. We're polite, we

908
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 1: don't shame them. We're not confrontational, but they are confining

909
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: themselves to the edges of society. By the entire class,

910
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 1: including the Republican Party in Vermont, there are very few

911
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: people in the Publican Party in Vermont that are actually

912
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: elected that behave like the majority of elected representatives to

913
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: do at the federal level. Well, in my mind, the

914
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: COVID and the political upheaval in the country mirror one another.

915
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: Their problems we've never faced before in this country. We've

916
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: never I shouldn't say we've never faced this kind of

917
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: political upheaval before, but but I think specifically to where

918
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 1: we are now, We've never seen a bunch of hoodlums

919
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: crash the gates of the and the doors of the

920
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: of the Capitol building and vandalized the Capitol Building. That's

921
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: something I never thought i'd see in my lifetime. But

922
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: if you're Biden and you're the president, now, what's the

923
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 1: line you have to walk between demanding law enforcement, demanding

924
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: people don't do those kinds of things again, but not

925
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 1: be perceived of someone who you're ganging up and you're

926
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 1: piling up on the extreme right. Okay, so what Biden

927
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: has to do is speak to the whole country minus

928
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 1: the extreme right. You can't reason with these people. Their

929
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: treason is they're really not Americans. So that's not our problem.

930
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 1: Our problem is that is the seventy million people that

931
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: voted for Trump that aren't crazy. There's plenty of them.

932
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: I don't think most Trump supporters think this is okay,

933
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 1: and so I mean the ones in Congress appear to,

934
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: and that's mostly because they completely lack any intestinal fortitude whatsoever.

935
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: But I think what Biden needs to do is speak

936
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: to all of us at the same time, not carry

937
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 1: on about law and order, but be really clear that

938
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: when this kind of stuff happens, the consequences are going

939
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: to be enormous. Enormous. These people are gonna get this

940
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: is already happening. These people are gonna lose their jobs,

941
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 1: and if they are willing to put other people's lives

942
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: at risk, they're likely to lose their own lives. As

943
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: long as we're speaking to the majority of Americans who

944
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: are I think fundamentally decent people, we can suppress the

945
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,959
Speaker 1: crazy people who are armed and mean other people harm.

946
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: And the last thing I want to say is we

947
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: cannot what we must not do under any circumstances is

948
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 1: concede other people's rights in order to bring order. We

949
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: are not going backwards on civil rights. We have made

950
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: huge gains over the summer. Uh's who the demonstrations, the

951
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter, and I think the consciousness in the

952
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: white community about what the problems are. That's where a

953
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: lot of this is is a lot of the white

954
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: community doesn't want to face what we really need to

955
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: face in order to try to get rid of some

956
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: of this injustice. But most people will want to do that.

957
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: I think most people in their hearts are good people.

958
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: We have to have a president that's willing to talk

959
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 1: to those people and be really tough on the people

960
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: that want don't want to play ball. Many many thanks

961
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: to you, sir, and thanks for taking my call. My

962
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 1: great pleasure. Talk soon. Former Vermont governor and former d

963
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: n C chair Howard Dean. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the

964
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: thing is brought to you by my Heart Radio. We're

965
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 1: produced by Kathleen Russo and Carrie Donohue. Our editor is

966
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: Zach McNeese and our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our theme

967
00:46:50,600 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: song is by Miles Davis. Didn't pay Me in US

968
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: to