Speaker 1: It's the most common beat in Western pop music. And
Speaker 1: it's also this resonant frequency at which if you just
Speaker 1: let people walk, that's what they will go to. And
Speaker 1: if you get people to tap along to a beat
Speaker 1: in a lab, that's also the beat that they are
Speaker 1: most accurate. Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moved, being
Speaker 1: in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is
Speaker 1: Caroline Williams, a science journalist and editor. She's a consultant
Speaker 1: for and regular contributor to New Scientist. Her written work
Speaker 1: has also appeared in the Guardian, The Boston Globe, BBC
Speaker 1: Future and BBC Earth, among others. Today, Caroline and Eric
Speaker 1: discuss her new book Move, How the New Science of
Speaker 1: Body Movement Can Set Your Mind Free. Hi, Caroline, welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. Hello, thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk to you about your book. It's
Speaker 1: called Move, How the New Science of Body Movement Can
Speaker 1: Set Your Mind Free. And listeners know I am a
Speaker 1: big proponent of moving my body, primarily in order to
Speaker 1: make my mind feel better. So we'll get into all
Speaker 1: that in a little bit. But let's start like we
Speaker 1: always do, with a parable. In the parable, there's a
Speaker 1: grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 1: at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it
Speaker 1: for a second and looks up at their grandparents as well.
Speaker 1: Which one wins? And the grandparents says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do. I think it's a really
Speaker 1: fascinating one because not only is it true in life,
Speaker 1: but in science you know that there's a real basis
Speaker 1: for this. Before I got really into movement, my career
Speaker 1: twenty years or so, as a science journalist was looking
Speaker 1: at the plasticity of the human brain and how it changes.
Speaker 1: And it really is true that what we do, the
Speaker 1: way we behave, the way we think, gets written into
Speaker 1: our brains in you know, physical connections between neurons and
Speaker 1: in the pathways, and you know, as you sort of
Speaker 1: walk these paths through your brain, they become more more
Speaker 1: worn in worn in Yeah, that's the word I'm thinking of, indented,
Speaker 1: but that's not really the word I mean. But yeah,
Speaker 1: they because they've become like like pass through long grass,
Speaker 1: they become better traveled. And so, yeah, it's absolutely true
Speaker 1: that if you choose to be positive and to choose
Speaker 1: kindness and compassion, that's been shown many times that that
Speaker 1: can actually change the way that your brain works in
Speaker 1: the way you live your life. So there really is
Speaker 1: something solid behind that, and that's sort of the way
Speaker 1: I like to operate that I guess I'm a bit
Speaker 1: of a natural skeptic. I want to look for the science,
Speaker 1: look for, you know, where the evidence lies, and it
Speaker 1: absolutely does back that up for sure. So I try
Speaker 1: to live that way myself. Yeah, I was reflecting earlier
Speaker 1: today on you know, I occasionally just somewhat jokingly say like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm just a beggar chemicals, right, Like, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, we've got neurotransmitters, and we've got hormones,
Speaker 1: and we've got electrical connections and synapses, and it's just
Speaker 1: all very physical, you know, it has a very physical
Speaker 1: element to it. It's chemicals, all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 1: and yet those things both control how we feel, and
Speaker 1: then also the things that we do can change those chemicals.
Speaker 1: There's just such an interesting interaction between the two that
Speaker 1: you would think like, well, if it's all chemicals, then
Speaker 1: the way to intervene is chemically, but not necessarily. And
Speaker 1: your book is a big testament to that that there
Speaker 1: are ways of changing what's happening inside not just our body,
Speaker 1: but our brain through the way we move. Absolutely, I
Speaker 1: mean that's one of the things that got me started
Speaker 1: on this whole thing. I've been so interested for many years,
Speaker 1: and what's happening in the brain and how to you know,
Speaker 1: change brain chemistry, how to change the way you think
Speaker 1: and feel focused on the brain, and then it sort
Speaker 1: of became obvious to me that thinking of your brain
Speaker 1: is if it's not attached to the rest of you,
Speaker 1: it's kind of weird. And of course there's all this
Speaker 1: pipe work that you know, all the blood flow packed
Speaker 1: with hormones and and all kinds of other stuff, and
Speaker 1: that all the wiring and the electrical activity that's going
Speaker 1: up and down our nerves. That all impacts what happens chemically,
Speaker 1: physically and as a result, emotionally and the way that
Speaker 1: we are able to think. So obviously what happens below
Speaker 1: the next matters for how we think and feel. And
Speaker 1: going on from that, it became quite obvious that things
Speaker 1: that we do to our bodies can change that chemical
Speaker 1: environment and change the electrical environment, and as has a
Speaker 1: knock on effect on everything. So so in a way
Speaker 1: it's liberating because you can then use your body as
Speaker 1: an extension to to tweak these parameters and change the
Speaker 1: way that you feel in the way that life feels
Speaker 1: to you as well. You sort of outlook on the world. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I always find it funny when people talk about like
Speaker 1: the brain body connection as if they discovered something radical, Like, oh,
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it's it's always been connected, you know.
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure how we got to it's so disconnected.
Speaker 1: I had a strangely I'm taking things off topic here,
Speaker 1: sort of not really. I had an epiphany about a
Speaker 1: week and a half ago. I was doing loving Kindness
Speaker 1: meditation and it was a guided meditation, and the leader
Speaker 1: of the meditation instructed you to try and notice where
Speaker 1: in your body you're feeling. This thing happened and I
Speaker 1: realized where I was feeling it mostly was my face.
Speaker 1: And I had been discounting the face as part of
Speaker 1: my body for a long time. Every time I was
Speaker 1: told look for where this emotion is in your body.
Speaker 1: If I noticed it in my face, I was like, no,
Speaker 1: that's my head, Where's in my body? But I had
Speaker 1: this moment where I was like a dummy, Hey, your face.
Speaker 1: Your face is part of your body. He is part
Speaker 1: of your body. It is an emotional center. It's where
Speaker 1: I happen to feel a lot of things. And that's
Speaker 1: sort of on topic as far as the brain body connection, now.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's really relevant because a lot of
Speaker 1: people struggle to tune into where these feelings are. So
Speaker 1: there's this thing called alexithymia where people aren't able to
Speaker 1: put name to their emotions. And if you can't do that,
Speaker 1: then it's really hard to regulate your emotions. So so
Speaker 1: things like meditation and you know, checking in with your
Speaker 1: body can be a way of tuning in and going, Okay,
Speaker 1: so I'm feeling this right now, I wonder how I
Speaker 1: can change what I'm doing with my body or you know,
Speaker 1: with my face which is part of my body, and
Speaker 1: how that can then have a feedback that will maybe
Speaker 1: make me feel differently. So yeah, that's really really relevant.
Speaker 1: And so that came up quite a lot in my
Speaker 1: research that being able to tune into your body and
Speaker 1: know what it needs, I know, what your entire body, brain,
Speaker 1: mind needs is a really important skill and because and
Speaker 1: often if we are so sedentary, we're so disconnected from
Speaker 1: our body, we're up and our heads all the time
Speaker 1: that we don't often make connections. So so it's a
Speaker 1: really important aspect of tuning into your body. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: let's start with talking a little bit about what the
Speaker 1: brain evolved to do. And I'd also like to talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about what certain people think the brain
Speaker 1: is doing, what it's role is. Can we talk about
Speaker 1: those two things real quickly before we move into the
Speaker 1: specifics of movement? Absolutely, because this this is where it
Speaker 1: all comes back to. So we tend to have this
Speaker 1: idea that brains are there for thinking, um and you know,
Speaker 1: working stuff out. But actually, if you look way back
Speaker 1: in our evolutionary history, not every organism on the planet
Speaker 1: has a brain. Even a lot of animals don't have brains,
Speaker 1: and at some point evolution had to make a decision
Speaker 1: whether brains were worth investing in or not. And there's
Speaker 1: this very well known neuroscientists called Rodolpho Lenas from Colombia,
Speaker 1: and he pointed out that there's this creature called the
Speaker 1: c squirt. In their adult form, they just like sort
Speaker 1: of bagpipes up to the bottom of the ocean, and
Speaker 1: they suck in water through one pipe and they blow
Speaker 1: it out through the other and they don't move. But
Speaker 1: in their young form, in the larval form, they're sort
Speaker 1: of like tadpoles. They swim around the ocean and their
Speaker 1: job in life is to find a place on the
Speaker 1: ocean to attach and live out the rest of their lives.
Speaker 1: And when they're in this juvenile stage, they have sort
Speaker 1: of a very basic brain, and the reason for this
Speaker 1: is that it needs to coordinate its movements away from
Speaker 1: things that are harmful and towards rewards. So it's a
Speaker 1: basic system what will kill me, what will help me?
Speaker 1: Pass on my jeans, And so this basic brain is
Speaker 1: connected to its basic tail and it swims around. When
Speaker 1: this lava finds the perfect spot, it attaches basically by
Speaker 1: gluing its head to a rock, and one of the
Speaker 1: first things it does is re absorbs its entire nervous
Speaker 1: system and it never makes any decisions ever. Again, so
Speaker 1: Lena said, well, this just goes to show what a
Speaker 1: brain is for. A brain is for informing your movements
Speaker 1: in the world so that it can increase your chances
Speaker 1: of revival by taking you towards things that will keep
Speaker 1: you alive and taking you away from things that will
Speaker 1: kill you. And if you're not going to move, then
Speaker 1: you don't need the brain. And you know, they're expensive
Speaker 1: bits of kit, their high energy and they take a
Speaker 1: lot to run. And so yeah, from right early on,
Speaker 1: brains were there to inform our movements in the world.
Speaker 1: And you can see that everything's been added on later
Speaker 1: right up to our you know, our clever emotions. You know,
Speaker 1: in fact, emotion comes from the words and the Latin
Speaker 1: for to move away from something. So emotions inform us
Speaker 1: about what we need to get away from, what we
Speaker 1: need to get to. So everything else that's come since
Speaker 1: then has been about informing our movements in the world,
Speaker 1: which is something that you don't often think about. You
Speaker 1: think brains. Yeah, yes, we've got a cracking brain for
Speaker 1: for for thinking very clever thoughts. But at the basis
Speaker 1: of it, our brains are there to help us move sensibly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love that analogy of the C square. It explains
Speaker 1: a lot about the editor of this podcast, Chris also
Speaker 1: and what has happened to him. I think basically what
Speaker 1: you said is once they start moving, they basically just
Speaker 1: get rid of their brain. They just don't have it anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it just gets recycled because the energy can be reused
Speaker 1: for something else. And you know, I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: the poor editor. I'm sure he's a lovely man, very
Speaker 1: clever man. Let's just say he doesn't move much and
Speaker 1: he's not very smart. I'm just making some connections here.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't like to comment, but but it's true that
Speaker 1: in humans, especially this use it or lose it nature
Speaker 1: of our brains became even more sort of tied together
Speaker 1: in the point of our evolution when we became hunters
Speaker 1: and gatherers, because then, you know, our ancestors could maybe
Speaker 1: sit around in trees munching on fruit and get away
Speaker 1: with it and they were absolutely fine. When we started
Speaker 1: moving further afield and looking for food, we had to
Speaker 1: evolve to be able to stand on our feet and
Speaker 1: walk long distances and you know, forage far and wide
Speaker 1: and hunt. But we also needed to be able to
Speaker 1: work together to bring down prey because humans are quite puny,
Speaker 1: really um, you know, we're not very fast, we're not
Speaker 1: very strong. We also needed to be able to you know, communicate,
Speaker 1: to work together to remember the way home, and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of cognitive work that goes into being a
Speaker 1: hunt togatherer. And so this this idea that that once
Speaker 1: we started taking this this way of life, our physiology
Speaker 1: tied together moving around being active with the health of
Speaker 1: our brain. And that explains why, you know, We've known
Speaker 1: for a long time that physical activity prompts the brain
Speaker 1: to be particularly plastic. It adds more connections, adds more
Speaker 1: blood flow. You know, everything works better when you've been active,
Speaker 1: and the reason for that is because these two things
Speaker 1: go together. At that point inar evolution, it's stopped being
Speaker 1: optional to move because if we don't move as much
Speaker 1: as our evolutionary history says we should, then the brain
Speaker 1: starts making savings, and over a lifetime that can be
Speaker 1: quite significant. So, you know, there is these quite frightening
Speaker 1: statistics that of Alzheimer's cases can be traced to a
Speaker 1: sedentary lifestyle. So over your lifespan, you know, if you're sentry, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that can have a real impact on how your brain ages. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Alzheimer's is a topic near and dear to my heart
Speaker 1: and my partner Jenny's heart. Her mom is deep in
Speaker 1: that disease. Now, so brain health in general is better
Speaker 1: with movement. Lots of studies show that, I want to
Speaker 1: pivot a little bit too. Mental health now, which is
Speaker 1: similar but slightly different. You say that poor mental health
Speaker 1: might be part of the price we pay for a
Speaker 1: cushy life of sofas and supermarkets. Yeah, I mean, because
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, we are the only
Speaker 1: creatures on the planet where movement is optional. You know,
Speaker 1: we can get food, we can find a mate, we
Speaker 1: can entertain ourselves, we can do everything we like from
Speaker 1: sitting down and just moving our thumbs and fingers a
Speaker 1: little bit if we want to. So we have to
Speaker 1: seek it out, and you know, statistics suggests that by
Speaker 1: and large we don't. And also working life nowadays, you know,
Speaker 1: even for people who write about movement for a living,
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time sitting in is very chair
Speaker 1: and not moving. So we have to seek it out
Speaker 1: if if we're going to do it. And obviously there's
Speaker 1: a real change over over the past decades. We move
Speaker 1: a lot less than even sort of our parents generation.
Speaker 1: And we have seen this catastrophic rise in in mental
Speaker 1: ill health and loneliness and all these other sort of things.
Speaker 1: And clearly there's more than one thing going on. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying, oh, well, that's you know, a straight line
Speaker 1: between our secondary life styles and mental health. But given
Speaker 1: that we have got this trend, and we know that movement, exercise,
Speaker 1: even just going for a walk is really really important
Speaker 1: and really good boost for mental health, as is strength training.
Speaker 1: That's a really really important one that a lot of
Speaker 1: people neglect. Being physically stronger has been shown really really
Speaker 1: conclusively to help with anxiety and depression and just make
Speaker 1: people feel more powerful in the world and able to cope.
Speaker 1: So this is measured psychologists called global self efficacy, and
Speaker 1: that's just basically a way of saying, I feel like
Speaker 1: I can handle stuff. And when people have improved their
Speaker 1: physical strength through through weight training or body weight training,
Speaker 1: they do feel more capable. So I think there's a
Speaker 1: real role to play in becoming more active in particular
Speaker 1: ways as well that could really improve people's mental health.
Speaker 1: I'm going to jump backwards a little bit. Maybe I
Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about inter reception and
Speaker 1: what it is and how that leads to what certain
Speaker 1: scientists call a global emotional moment, and then link in
Speaker 1: how movement ties into that. Yeah, so inter reception is
Speaker 1: sort of a little known sense that we have, and
Speaker 1: it's the sense of the internal state of our body.
Speaker 1: So rather than thinking of, you know, the brain is
Speaker 1: the master computer that sort of just sends messages downstream,
Speaker 1: interception is about a cross talk between the body and
Speaker 1: the brains. Do you think of the brain more as
Speaker 1: a sort of facilitator that sort of takes all the
Speaker 1: information that's coming in about you know, what hormones are
Speaker 1: in the blood, whether you're a hungry, whether you thirsty,
Speaker 1: whether you're feeling, whether the flight WI flight responses kicked in,
Speaker 1: you know, all these kinds of things that are going on,
Speaker 1: even down to our heartbeat that you know, the way
Speaker 1: that we're digesting our food. All this information is being
Speaker 1: passed back and forth browning body all the time. And
Speaker 1: what we know is that slight differences in the messages
Speaker 1: that are going from the body, these interceptive messages can
Speaker 1: really affect mental health. And there's this whole body of
Speaker 1: research now that suggests that some people are more or
Speaker 1: less sensitive to their interceptive signals, and that can make
Speaker 1: you more or less susceptible to things like depression, anxiety, schizophrenia,
Speaker 1: all kinds of mental health issues. And it's involved in
Speaker 1: things like autism and a d h D and all
Speaker 1: these kinds of things. The global emotional moment is basically
Speaker 1: your brain's picture, you know, taking in all this information.
Speaker 1: So there's a part of the brank called the insula
Speaker 1: that takes all this information and puts it all together
Speaker 1: and comes up with a sense of how I feel
Speaker 1: now and the eye bit of it than me. The
Speaker 1: sense of self comes from these bodily signals and putting
Speaker 1: them all together brings this global emotional moment, and so
Speaker 1: it stands to reason that if you do anything to
Speaker 1: change these messages, then that global emotional moment will change.
Speaker 1: And so I think tweaking the dials is something that
Speaker 1: could really benefit people. As I said earlier, tuning in
Speaker 1: doing something to change the messages and that will change
Speaker 1: the way you feel in the moment but also in
Speaker 1: the long term. So the strength stuff is really interesting
Speaker 1: because the idea behind why strength might make you feel
Speaker 1: more capable is that you're upgrading these interceptive signals from
Speaker 1: your muscles and from your bones that are just maybe
Speaker 1: given this unconscious sense that I'm strong, it's fine, you
Speaker 1: can stand down the anxiety because if anything happens, I
Speaker 1: can handle it. And maybe that's what explains the very
Speaker 1: strong link between increased strength and feeling more powerful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think this is a really important topic. This idea
Speaker 1: of a reception and signals coming from the body, that
Speaker 1: we aggregate them generally and it creates this global emotional moment,
Speaker 1: because I've spent a lot of time thinking about two
Speaker 1: thoughts cause emotions to emotions cause thought, And you know,
Speaker 1: it's a big debate a lot in psychology, and I
Speaker 1: think the answer is, as near as I can tell,
Speaker 1: it's a bidirectional relationship. I almost more and more, I'm
Speaker 1: starting to go, are they even different? Or they co arise?
Speaker 1: The thing that first got me really going weight, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that thought always causes emotion. Is because I
Speaker 1: was able to notice very clearly some days I would
Speaker 1: wake up and I would just immediately feel a certain
Speaker 1: way before I had had any thought, and then it
Speaker 1: felt like every thought got filtered through that feeling. And
Speaker 1: that's what you're describing. That global emotional moment is sort
Speaker 1: of like the weather that's inside our brain, and then
Speaker 1: our thoughts can't help but to some degree be influenced
Speaker 1: by that weather. Yes, So one way I thought I
Speaker 1: heard it described that I really like is background music.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like the background music to our lives.
Speaker 1: So like when you're watching a film, you know you're
Speaker 1: watching a horror film and you can't quite work out
Speaker 1: while you're feeling on edge, but it's the background movement
Speaker 1: that's kind of making you nervous. And yeah, by changing
Speaker 1: these interceptive messages, you can change the background music on
Speaker 1: your life so that rather than feeling like oh god,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, you can actually do something that
Speaker 1: makes everything feel a bit more positive and feel a
Speaker 1: bit more possible. That's what the power of movement doing
Speaker 1: in the moment and long term, that if you can
Speaker 1: change those messages, then in general your background movements, your
Speaker 1: life will be better. We'll be happier, will be more capable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we interviewed, it's been years ago, a woman named Michelle Seeger,
Speaker 1: and she had done some writing on movement and how
Speaker 1: it makes us feel. And she said something I won't
Speaker 1: get it exactly right, but it's stuck with me all
Speaker 1: these years, all these interviews, which is like, if your
Speaker 1: body doesn't feel good, your brain, your mental state, you're
Speaker 1: going to feel like ship. The flavor of that may
Speaker 1: depend on your particular neuroses and conditioning, but if the
Speaker 1: body is out of whack, it's going to influence it.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what we're saying within terror Reception.
Speaker 1: What you're saying is when we move, if it helps
Speaker 1: the body be in a better place, and thus the
Speaker 1: messages that we're getting in the brain are better. Changing
Speaker 1: that background music to something that is more enjoyable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and in sort of ways that you can't even put
Speaker 1: your finger on. So just like you know, when you're
Speaker 1: feeling down and depressed and miserable, sometimes you don't know why, um,
Speaker 1: you know, but if you can improve the background messages,
Speaker 1: then you can just feel okay for reasons that you
Speaker 1: don't have to dwell on. You just feel okay. You're
Speaker 1: bumbling along through your life and and everything is groovy.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that there's a lot you can do. And
Speaker 1: I think it was not really a surprise to me
Speaker 1: when I started thinking of movement this way. It was
Speaker 1: sort of a penny dropping, like, well, of course, I
Speaker 1: never feel more like myself than when I'm halfway through
Speaker 1: a yoga class or you know, on a long walk
Speaker 1: or or you know, kayaking or just doing something active.
Speaker 1: I know who I am, I feel good, I know
Speaker 1: what I'm capable of, and everything's great. If I'm slumped
Speaker 1: down not moved, I mean, how to isolate the ten
Speaker 1: days when I had COVID, Oh my goodness, I mean,
Speaker 1: I was the worst version of myself ever. I mean
Speaker 1: in theory, I could have written several books in that time,
Speaker 1: but well not really. But you know, I could have
Speaker 1: done a lot of work, but I was so miserable.
Speaker 1: I was so lethargic, you know. And I think if
Speaker 1: there anyone who is quite active sort of knows this
Speaker 1: in themselves. But it's kind of interesting to put the
Speaker 1: science and the philosophy behind it and say, yeah, for me,
Speaker 1: that means there are good reasons to seek it out
Speaker 1: and to not be lazy even though it's comfortable. Yeah.
Speaker 1: This speaks to two of the mantras that I use
Speaker 1: on the show. The most one is depression hates a
Speaker 1: moving target. It has always been true in my case.
Speaker 1: And then the other is sometimes you can't think your
Speaker 1: way in the right action. You have to act your
Speaker 1: way in the right thinking right. And it speaks to
Speaker 1: the fact that the action in this case, we're talking
Speaker 1: about movement, the actual physical movement, changes the way we think, yeah,
Speaker 1: versus just sitting there trying to feel better and think better.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it just doesn't work. So my previous book, Override
Speaker 1: All My Plastic Brain in the US, was all about
Speaker 1: trying to think, you know, trying to do something to
Speaker 1: my brain, to change my brains workings, do you know,
Speaker 1: to make me less anxious, to make me more creative,
Speaker 1: to change various things, and especially when it came to anxiety.
Speaker 1: The thing that bugged me about it is that most
Speaker 1: of the treatments revolve around thinking your way out of it,
Speaker 1: thinking I feel anxious about this. Logically that shouldn't be
Speaker 1: the case. I can tell myself that I don't need
Speaker 1: to be anxious about this, And now that's not how
Speaker 1: it works. When you're living it. You can't think your
Speaker 1: way out of it. Of course, as the issue with
Speaker 1: things like depression, that getting moving in the first place
Speaker 1: is a problem, and I'm really interesting research that I
Speaker 1: found was one of the first signs that an antidepressant
Speaker 1: medication is starting to work is that people have an
Speaker 1: increase in voluntary movement, so people want to move more,
Speaker 1: and then that starts off the you know, the the
Speaker 1: nice cycle of upward movement hopefully. But yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it's absolutely true that if you can get over that
Speaker 1: barrier and get yourself moving, then you're often you're often running,
Speaker 1: and that's been showing time and again. Yeah, I wish
Speaker 1: I had an easy answer to how to get off
Speaker 1: the chair in the first place. But I know that
Speaker 1: is a cruel irony of really severe depression. Is that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: one of the things that might help you a lot
Speaker 1: is one of the things that's very hardest to do,
Speaker 1: which is you know why really learning to start small
Speaker 1: can be helpful, Like how you know what's the what's
Speaker 1: the littlest thing I can do with physical activity? Thing
Speaker 1: I've noticed a lot is that Let's say I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: all right, I need to do a forty five minute
Speaker 1: bike ride, and my brain thinks about that, and it
Speaker 1: it thinks about the amount of energy of forty five
Speaker 1: minute bike ride takes. It knows what it takes, it's
Speaker 1: done it It's like, okay, that's a lot of energy,
Speaker 1: and it compares it to what it feels currently and
Speaker 1: it's like, that's not doable. Which is why the strategy
Speaker 1: of like all right, Eric, just put on your bike shoes,
Speaker 1: get in the other room works. This is my own
Speaker 1: sort of interpretation of what I think is happening in
Speaker 1: my brain. But my brain is going, oh, bike shoes,
Speaker 1: you know, one unit of energy, So you've got one
Speaker 1: unit of energy. I can do it that way until
Speaker 1: it's some juncture, the energy starts to generate from the
Speaker 1: workout itself and propels me. So that strategy has saved
Speaker 1: me more times than I can count. I've been quite
Speaker 1: slack on the getting out of bed and doing early
Speaker 1: morning yoga of late, but I was regularly getting up
Speaker 1: at six and going sort of half an hour down
Speaker 1: the road and doing an hour and a half of
Speaker 1: yogur in the morning. And the way the way I
Speaker 1: managed to do that was when I woke up and growing.
Speaker 1: Getting out of bed is my least favorite thing in
Speaker 1: the world. I should just say to myself, tuck and
Speaker 1: roll and just out of bed and go and roll.
Speaker 1: That's good. Yeah, tuck and roll hasn't worked for me
Speaker 1: that well recently, but now I do go out on
Speaker 1: a lot of bike rides with friends, and having them
Speaker 1: appear at the door and saying why aren't you ready?
Speaker 1: Tends to boy into action. So yeah, it's either pressure
Speaker 1: from outside or some sneaky strategy can be the way.
Speaker 1: But you know, one of the people I met during
Speaker 1: the research for the book was Marcus Scotty, who's an
Speaker 1: ultra marathon runner who has suffered with depression. It is
Speaker 1: the entire adult life and even he said to me,
Speaker 1: I just couldn't understand. How can I push myself to
Speaker 1: run an ultra marathon over several days when my feet
Speaker 1: are bleeding and I'm absolutely exhausted, and yet sometimes I
Speaker 1: can't get myself out of this depression. You know, I've
Speaker 1: clearly got the strength of mind to do that. Why
Speaker 1: can't I do that? So even the best movers struggle
Speaker 1: with it. Let's move into talking about some specific types
Speaker 1: of movements. One of the things I loved about this
Speaker 1: book is you set it up as globally movement is
Speaker 1: really good for us, but then we kind of go
Speaker 1: through different types of movement and some of the specific benefits.
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about walking. What did
Speaker 1: you find most fascinating about the research you did into walking?
Speaker 1: But most people it's, you know, such an accessible thing
Speaker 1: that most people can do. I was surprised at how
Speaker 1: it's such a multi use tool. So there's the research
Speaker 1: into creativity. So you know, just in a brain focused sense,
Speaker 1: we know that when activity has turned down in the
Speaker 1: frontal parts of the brain, which is a bit behind
Speaker 1: the forehead, that we tend to think less in straight lines.
Speaker 1: You know, that's a part of the brain that kind
Speaker 1: of keeps us tethered and keeps putting us back and says,
Speaker 1: don't be daf that won't work, and you know, keeps
Speaker 1: us with the obvious options. And we know that, you know,
Speaker 1: artific really turning down activity in that brain region makes
Speaker 1: you more creative. And we also know that walking does
Speaker 1: something very similar to this brain region. And so if
Speaker 1: you go out at a sort of a moderate pace
Speaker 1: where you're not having to expend much effort, you're just
Speaker 1: sort of meandering, and that tends to turn down this
Speaker 1: thinking bit of the brain and the brain goes wide,
Speaker 1: and that's been shown to increase creativity. So we have
Speaker 1: this idea, I think in modern society that if we
Speaker 1: need to work and come up with something new, we
Speaker 1: need to sit at our desks and bang our head
Speaker 1: against the desk until we come up with a great idea.
Speaker 1: But I mean that's completely not the way we should
Speaker 1: be doing it. Science says go for a walk and
Speaker 1: go for a wander, and I think we need to
Speaker 1: sort of rebrand working is something that can be done
Speaker 1: on the move. So that's one way of using walking
Speaker 1: that's that's really really easy, and it's sort of spills
Speaker 1: over for about in experiments like for about twenty minutes
Speaker 1: after you come back for the walk to have a
Speaker 1: brainstorming meeting, go out for a one to come back,
Speaker 1: and you should have better ideas. Another way is the fast,
Speaker 1: more brisk walk. So there was some really intriguing research
Speaker 1: I came across. Is this great guy called Dick Green,
Speaker 1: who you started off looking at pipe works in oil
Speaker 1: fields and then turned his attention to pipe work of
Speaker 1: the human body, ins of the blood vessels, and it's,
Speaker 1: you know, I guess it's sort of the same thing, really,
Speaker 1: And he found that we essentially have these preciure sensors
Speaker 1: on our feet, and then when we're putting weight on
Speaker 1: our feet and walking, that sort of sets up turbulence
Speaker 1: in the in the blood vessels, which adds up to
Speaker 1: a boost of blood to the brain. And I guess
Speaker 1: that's in a way that's not that surprising. That's why
Speaker 1: you feel a bit more alert when you've been up
Speaker 1: on your feet and moving. But he found this sweet
Speaker 1: spot where our footsteps are at a hundred and twenty
Speaker 1: steps per minute, and our heart rate is also a
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty beats per minute, and our heart rate
Speaker 1: and our footsteps synchronize, and this gives you the best
Speaker 1: boost of blood to the brains. I like. The even
Speaker 1: cooler thing about this is that a hundred and twenty
Speaker 1: beats per minute. It's the most common beat in Western
Speaker 1: pop music. And it's also sort of this resonant frequency
Speaker 1: at which if you just let people walk, that's what
Speaker 1: they will go to. And if you get people to
Speaker 1: tap along to a beat in a lab, that's also
Speaker 1: the beat that they are most accurate at. There's something
Speaker 1: magic about there's a hundred and twenty beats per minute.
Speaker 1: The good thing about it being common in physic you
Speaker 1: can google any of your favorite genre of movement and
Speaker 1: a hundred twenty beats per minute and you can find
Speaker 1: the music that you can step in time to and
Speaker 1: just get going. And it seems to make you know
Speaker 1: when your heartbeat gets into synchrony, that's when you get
Speaker 1: a boost. So you know, he he doesn't have firm
Speaker 1: data that this is what happens in your brain works better,
Speaker 1: but what he says is it could really account for
Speaker 1: this feeling of well being we get when we're out
Speaker 1: and moving briskly. So if you want to um not
Speaker 1: necessarily think broad thoughts. You want to get out there,
Speaker 1: and after a period of sitting and getting lethargic, you
Speaker 1: want to ge yourself up again and get back in
Speaker 1: the room. Then going for a very quick stomp is
Speaker 1: a really effective way of doing that. Beats per minute.
Speaker 1: I love that. Yes, there is another idea in that
Speaker 1: section on walking the as our bones are in constant
Speaker 1: conversation with our brains. What does that mean. That's an
Speaker 1: intriguing statement, I know, because we tend to think of
Speaker 1: our bones as being these sort of dry, dusty sticks
Speaker 1: that hold us up and that they don't do very much.
Speaker 1: But in reality, they are a living tissue that's constantly
Speaker 1: being built up if we stress them by by putting
Speaker 1: weight on them, or they get broken down if we're
Speaker 1: not putting weight on them, and you know, we start
Speaker 1: to lose bone density. And when we're actually building up bone,
Speaker 1: there is a hormone released from that bone that goes
Speaker 1: into the blood and it doesn't actually have anything to
Speaker 1: do with the bone building process. What it seems to
Speaker 1: do is travel to the brain. It sort of docks
Speaker 1: onto the part of the brain called the hippocampus, which
Speaker 1: is important for memory and it's been shown in in
Speaker 1: experiments to improve memory and just make the brain function better.
Speaker 1: It seems to have an effect on anxiety as well,
Speaker 1: So this is all sort of connected again. So when
Speaker 1: we're putting weight on our bones, were strengthening our bones,
Speaker 1: were making our body more able to move us around
Speaker 1: away from danger towards reward. It's also giving a boost
Speaker 1: to our brain to learn better and to retain information better.
Speaker 1: To me, that was a really surprising one. But you know,
Speaker 1: you think of hormones, you think of glands, you know,
Speaker 1: you think of you know, a different kinds of things.
Speaker 1: You don't think of your bones as secreting hormones that
Speaker 1: help your brain to work properly. But they absolutely do.
Speaker 1: So this is really interesting research. They are now looking
Speaker 1: into it in terms of cognitive aging. Because the bad
Speaker 1: news is that when you get to about middle age,
Speaker 1: the production of this hormone, osteochalcin, drops off, and so
Speaker 1: you have to do a lot of weight bearing exercise
Speaker 1: to keep that going, which is you know, that's something
Speaker 1: that's very important, especially for women in middle age. When
Speaker 1: estrogen starts to drop off. It needs to happen anyway,
Speaker 1: but this is another reason to keep your bones healthy
Speaker 1: and to do that weight bearing exercise not only when
Speaker 1: you feel better, your brain might work better as well.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that was a real surprising one for me.
Speaker 1: And by weight bearing exercise in this case, we mean walking.
Speaker 1: Walking is a weight bearing exercise. Yeah, I mean anything
Speaker 1: that's holding up your own weight against gravity and moving
Speaker 1: Cauncer's weight bearing exercise. So we don't know yet. It's
Speaker 1: too early in the research to know whether you know,
Speaker 1: adding ankle weights while you go for a walk, you know,
Speaker 1: give you you know more as deer cows in or whatever.
Speaker 1: So any form of weight bearing exercise. We don't know
Speaker 1: whether more is better, but I would probably suspect that
Speaker 1: more is better, but I don't have any data to
Speaker 1: back that up, so don't quote me on it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, what's the worst that can happen? You can
Speaker 1: move better, get stronger, all good things come from that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it makes me feel like I need to walk more.
Speaker 1: My primary cardio exercises now this Peloton bike, which I
Speaker 1: love and has been great for my amount of time
Speaker 1: I spend doing cardio and a lot of different things.
Speaker 1: But it is not, as you say, a weight bearing
Speaker 1: exercise in the same way. And the other thing about
Speaker 1: it is it's not outdoors. Yeah, and then you know
Speaker 1: there's other stuff. This isn't in a book, but I
Speaker 1: have written about balance and researchers who were working on
Speaker 1: our Balance is another thing that declines with age and
Speaker 1: being on a stationary bike. It's great for cardio, but
Speaker 1: if you want an actual bike, you're having to fight
Speaker 1: gravity and you're having to keep yourself upright. So being
Speaker 1: on a stationary bike or a treadmill doesn't tax your
Speaker 1: brain in quite the same way as being out in
Speaker 1: the real world and dodging obstacles and having to look
Speaker 1: over your shoulder and that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right that depressed people walk differently than non depressed people,
Speaker 1: more slowly, hardly moving their arms and assuming a slump
Speaker 1: posture with their eyes to the floor. I was really
Speaker 1: struck by that last part, the eyes to the floor thing.
Speaker 1: I've been doing something the last I don't know a
Speaker 1: month or so. It's called the Alexander technique. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you've ever come across it. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know much about it, but I have heard of it.
Speaker 1: I don't either still after a month, but part of
Speaker 1: what the Alexander Technique is trying to do is to
Speaker 1: get you to recognize sort of your habitual patterns of
Speaker 1: use your body being you know, the main one, and
Speaker 1: undo those by sort of letting them go. But one
Speaker 1: of the things that my Alexander Technique instructor has pointed
Speaker 1: out to me is that my natural use is head
Speaker 1: down slightly looking more towards the floor. That's sort of
Speaker 1: where I naturally orient And as I've started to pay
Speaker 1: closer attention to that, I'm like, yeah, even when walking,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of a little bit of that head down.
Speaker 1: So I was struck by that eyes to the floor piece.
Speaker 1: You actually talk about it also in the section about
Speaker 1: core exercises also that this is another thing. But I
Speaker 1: was really struck by that because, like I said, it
Speaker 1: was just pointed out to me this week that I
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, I do it too. I catch myself
Speaker 1: all the time, and I have to remind myself look up,
Speaker 1: look out at the world, and head up posture matters. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's another thing that the sort of the core
Speaker 1: research is really interesting, and that the effects of just
Speaker 1: changing the way Again, it's the messages that your body
Speaker 1: is sending about how you feel and you know, we
Speaker 1: know that slumped posture. You know, everything from you know,
Speaker 1: a defeated chimpanzee will will sit and slump down and
Speaker 1: sort of broadcast the message leave me alone, I give up. Um.
Speaker 1: That sort of come through to us as well. But
Speaker 1: the benefit of being a human as we can reflect
Speaker 1: on that and we can change it, and then we
Speaker 1: feedback that. You know, the body then tells the brain, Okay,
Speaker 1: you're setting up straight. You must be feeling better. Um.
Speaker 1: And there's some really interesting research into what causes that.
Speaker 1: And I don't know whether you your listens will probably
Speaker 1: know about Amy Cuddy's power posing research that she's got
Speaker 1: a really hard time because she then linked changes in
Speaker 1: postage changes in hormones in the body that hasn't been
Speaker 1: backed up by other research. But the facts of posture
Speaker 1: affecting the way you feel has been backed up many, many,
Speaker 1: many times. So we're just still looking for the you know,
Speaker 1: the killer mechanism that explains exactly so I mean, and
Speaker 1: there's one potential one that I go in the book,
Speaker 1: which is really interesting to me for the same reason
Speaker 1: I was talking about, like thinking your way out of stress,
Speaker 1: because there are links that have emerged between like neural
Speaker 1: links literally wiring pathways between the adrenal glands that pump
Speaker 1: out stress hormones and the parts of the brain that
Speaker 1: control movements. Is like this strip of brain tissue across
Speaker 1: sort of way. You headphones go across the top of
Speaker 1: your head, and these wires from the adrenal blands end
Speaker 1: up in the part of the brain that controls voluntary
Speaker 1: movement of the core. So the trunk muscles, the ones
Speaker 1: that keep you upright or not upright. And it's really interesting.
Speaker 1: There's something to do with movement. There's something to do
Speaker 1: with this movement of this midsection of your body and
Speaker 1: the posture that you keep. It's linked in with the
Speaker 1: stress system. And so to me, that suggests that rather
Speaker 1: than having to think your way out of a stressful situation,
Speaker 1: there's something you can do with your body. You can
Speaker 1: strengthen that core, you can change your posture, you can
Speaker 1: take control and tell yourself via your body that everything's
Speaker 1: all right and that you can stand down this stress response.
Speaker 1: So to me, I mean, I'm hoping that there's going
Speaker 1: to be more research in this area. You know, they're
Speaker 1: working very hard on it. That will show us exactly
Speaker 1: how to do that. But but this link, given that
Speaker 1: we know that posture makes you feel better, and that
Speaker 1: these links are there, it would suggest quite strongly that
Speaker 1: having a strong care a good posture can you know,
Speaker 1: really effectively change the way you feel and how you
Speaker 1: deal with stress. In that section on core, you talk
Speaker 1: about that neural pathway, but you also say that it's
Speaker 1: the area of the body where most of our internal
Speaker 1: organs are found, which means it's the point of origin
Speaker 1: for a lot of our inter receptive messages that we
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, and so that that area being
Speaker 1: you know, in good shape, so to speak, might improve
Speaker 1: the way we feel also in that way because the
Speaker 1: interro acceptive messages. Yeah, and then then this is also
Speaker 1: idea that you know this area of the body because
Speaker 1: the organs are there, so these you know, the messages
Speaker 1: from the heart and the lungs, you know, everything is
Speaker 1: coming from the stomach, everything is coming from this region.
Speaker 1: That maybe this sort of is a focal point. So
Speaker 1: there's one neuroscientist who thinks that this is why we
Speaker 1: have this sense of being in our bodies and looking
Speaker 1: out of it, because these interceptive messages are in our
Speaker 1: sort of core of our body. So there's something special
Speaker 1: about our trunk because that's where we are in some ways. Um.
Speaker 1: So I think that's a really interesting viewpoint. You know
Speaker 1: a lot of people think, oh, the me is in
Speaker 1: my head behind my eyes. Actually, maybe a lot of
Speaker 1: me is in my midsection of my body where all
Speaker 1: the important stuff. The brain is important too, but you
Speaker 1: know the other important stuff is there's a lot of
Speaker 1: other important stuff. Yes, let's hit strength training a little
Speaker 1: bit more. You hit on it to some degree, but
Speaker 1: there have been studies that compare different forms of exercise
Speaker 1: or they show and you you write about that strength
Speaker 1: training is faster and more powerful effects on self esteem. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this was one of the things that really supplies
Speaker 1: me because you know, everyone knows cardio makes you feel good,
Speaker 1: gets the blood pumping and door things blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: But studies have shown that strength training alone, regardless of
Speaker 1: whether you're doing cardio or other forms of exercise, do
Speaker 1: lift mood. They help you feel more powerful, um, and
Speaker 1: more capable in your life. So um, and that's one
Speaker 1: area that I think it is quite easy to neglect.
Speaker 1: You know, you can go out and go for a run,
Speaker 1: you can go and cycle or swim or or whatever.
Speaker 1: But but actually focusing on your physical strength is something
Speaker 1: that's easy to miss and it's really important, especially in
Speaker 1: young people, because there's evidence that young people are less
Speaker 1: strong than they were ten years ago, um as are
Speaker 1: a lot of adults as well, and that you know,
Speaker 1: maybe that's feeding into some of the anxiety issues that
Speaker 1: we're seeing in young people, and you know that they're
Speaker 1: they're feeling really under pressure, unable to cope, so um
Speaker 1: you know, giving them strength at an early age can
Speaker 1: hopefully give them some tools to take forward into their
Speaker 1: adult life and feel confident and feel that they matter
Speaker 1: and that they got something to offer the world. So
Speaker 1: so it's something that we're missing out on and I
Speaker 1: think we could definitely do better with. Yeah, the studies
Speaker 1: that you reference were a little bit staggering, and depending
Speaker 1: on how you measure strength, we're talking about a decrease
Speaker 1: in youth since the year two thousand, that is not
Speaker 1: very long ago. I it's kind of terrifying really. You know,
Speaker 1: I have a twelve year old and I think luckily
Speaker 1: he's a fidget like I am, so he's always on
Speaker 1: the move and doing stuff. But but yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's still very easy to go through school and come
Speaker 1: out the other end and feel that physical activity and
Speaker 1: movement is not for you and you're not a sporty
Speaker 1: kid and you're not very strong, and that's really got
Speaker 1: to change. It's not helpful because those kids then leave
Speaker 1: and then they're not the ones who who seek out
Speaker 1: movement in adulthood. And you know when you really have
Speaker 1: to seek it out because you haven't got the time
Speaker 1: anymore like you did when you were a kid. So
Speaker 1: I think we need to do better for children in schools.
Speaker 1: You know, we're cutting down on pe time, we're cutting
Speaker 1: down on break time, recess time, and kids aren't playing
Speaker 1: outside like they used to, they're not walking to school
Speaker 1: like they used to. Um. Yeah, there's all kinds of
Speaker 1: things that they're not doing that are playing into this
Speaker 1: and I think really needs to be urgently looked at. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and as you said, strength three year is one of
Speaker 1: the easiest areas to let go. Like I mentioned the
Speaker 1: cardio bike that I have sitting next to me here,
Speaker 1: I just use it a lot and I love it.
Speaker 1: Strength training has proven to be more challenging for me
Speaker 1: to do consistently. What's actually worked for me. Is I
Speaker 1: found I've really needed a trainer, someone virtually, and luckily
Speaker 1: I'm in a position where I'm able to afford that
Speaker 1: from time to time. But yeah, it is. It's a
Speaker 1: harder thing for me to motivate myself to do and
Speaker 1: to know, like what's the right level, how much should
Speaker 1: I be doing? There's more nuance to it. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not obvious, is it going for a run? You know,
Speaker 1: when your breathless and you know you can go a
Speaker 1: bit further than you did last time. It's a bit tricky,
Speaker 1: but I mean it doesn't always have to be using
Speaker 1: weights and in a gym or you know, doing anything
Speaker 1: like that. We can build stuff into our lives. So
Speaker 1: I try and make an effort. Now. So you can't
Speaker 1: see from the screen, but I'm actually really small and
Speaker 1: poor eleven. I'm quite slight. If I'm out somewhere and
Speaker 1: somewhere said, if I'm carrying something and someone that's can
Speaker 1: I help with that? I always say no, No No, I'm fine.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm make an effort to carry things because
Speaker 1: that's really important that you can use what strength you
Speaker 1: have and keep it going. So it can be as
Speaker 1: simple as as choosing to carry your shopping home, choosing
Speaker 1: to lift and carry staff rather than putting it in
Speaker 1: a shopping trolley. You know, we can build these things
Speaker 1: into our lives and after a while they've become habits.
Speaker 1: So that's another way of doing it for people who
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily into getting into lycra and lifting weights and
Speaker 1: don't necessar because a lot of people don't feel condid
Speaker 1: like that's I'm not wearing lycra, I'm telling you Chris.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, Chris is poors loving the lightcrow.
Speaker 1: Well he's halfway there. Then he's wearing licra, but he's not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's halfway. Everybody's not moving really tight like this. M yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean it can also be body weight exercise as well,
Speaker 1: because you know, I spend some time with the move
Speaker 1: net community who are interested in using your body in
Speaker 1: a sort of human animal kind of way. So they
Speaker 1: don't lift weights, they lift boulders, they don't um, you know, swear.
Speaker 1: They don't even go to a swimming pool. They might
Speaker 1: swim in a river, you know, things like crawling. I
Speaker 1: spent a morning crawling in a park in London. My goodness,
Speaker 1: I mean, I really could not move the next day
Speaker 1: I have yeah, yeah, I mean it was quite incredible.
Speaker 1: So it doesn't necessarily have to be that complicated. And
Speaker 1: even so, the main change that I've made to my
Speaker 1: working life to get more movement in is rather than
Speaker 1: sitting at my desk all day, I spend a lot
Speaker 1: more time sitting on the floor. Because the one thing
Speaker 1: about sitting on the floor you have to get up
Speaker 1: and you know, your your leg pressing your entire body
Speaker 1: weight every time you do that. And if you're like
Speaker 1: me and you keep forgetting you've lost your pen. It's upstairs.
Speaker 1: You have to run upstairs, get it up, down, up down.
Speaker 1: And studies of you know, people in the blue zones
Speaker 1: you may have come across the places in the world
Speaker 1: where people are far more likely to live to a
Speaker 1: hundred than anywhere else. So studies of these people, you know,
Speaker 1: there's lots of factors that seem to feed into their
Speaker 1: long lifespan, but one of them is that they have
Speaker 1: movement as part of their everyday life. So these little
Speaker 1: old ladies in Okinawa and Japan that they have low
Speaker 1: tables and they're constantly hopping up and down from these
Speaker 1: glow tables, and you know, going out gardening and foraging
Speaker 1: and bending down and stretching up. So sort of building
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff into your life can can actually
Speaker 1: improve your strength. Um. You know, they call them movement
Speaker 1: snacks in movement, which I love because it's a bit
Speaker 1: like you know, when you're sitting eating snacks, you know
Speaker 1: they add up in terms of calories without you're really noticing,
Speaker 1: and you know that can have a real physical effect.
Speaker 1: It's the same for movement snacks. They add up over time.
Speaker 1: You don't notice that you're hopping up and down from
Speaker 1: the floor, but you're still strengthening your legs, you're still
Speaker 1: improving your overall strength, so it all counts. And then
Speaker 1: the less you're doing in the first place, the more
Speaker 1: a small amount will have an impact. So it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be going out and becoming any getting really
Speaker 1: big bulging muscles. And in fact, that's the other thing
Speaker 1: about strength training, the improvements in mental health and in
Speaker 1: feeling more confident and powerful, they happened before any physical
Speaker 1: changes were detectable in the muscles, So it's not even
Speaker 1: that you have to build more muscle, it's just letting
Speaker 1: your body know that you can do it, and that
Speaker 1: strength is there, and it sort of releases a bit
Speaker 1: of latent potential that you didn't necessarily know you had.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you don't need to get buff. That's not
Speaker 1: necessary at all. All Right, dance, let's talk about dance.
Speaker 1: Of all the exercises that we've talked about, probably the
Speaker 1: least number of listeners are doing. Yeah. Yeah, very very
Speaker 1: few people dance. When we get to adulthood, we seem
Speaker 1: to stop dancing, which is a real shame, but and
Speaker 1: it's a really fundamental part of what it means to
Speaker 1: be human. So no other creatures dance, or if they do,
Speaker 1: they're dancing a different rhythm that we can't work out.
Speaker 1: But they don't dance like we do, to the beats
Speaker 1: beats per minute like we do. And there are lots
Speaker 1: of theories about why that is. Humans are dances, and
Speaker 1: one of the things is that it helps us bond
Speaker 1: you know, this whole point of needing each other and
Speaker 1: needing to be socially bonded. Dances a way of bringing together.
Speaker 1: And so the idea behind this is that when we're moving,
Speaker 1: you know, we have these appropriate receptive inputs. That's so
Speaker 1: that's a slightly different to interception it's is the bodily
Speaker 1: sense of where our body is in space without having
Speaker 1: to look. And that's an important thing of knowing who
Speaker 1: I am and where I end and you begin. So
Speaker 1: when we're moving, we have this appropriate sceptive sense of
Speaker 1: where our body is in space. If we're moving in
Speaker 1: synchrony with somebody else, then the information about their body
Speaker 1: movements coming in through our other senses, our brains get confused.
Speaker 1: They can't really separate the two, and so this sort
Speaker 1: of breaks down the barrier between me and you and
Speaker 1: we start to feel more connected. And there's all these
Speaker 1: intriguing experiments where they get people to move in time
Speaker 1: together and then they get them to do kind of
Speaker 1: gambling tasks and they can either stuff each other's chances
Speaker 1: of winning or they can cooperate and everyone goes home happier.
Speaker 1: And people are far more likely to cooperate with each
Speaker 1: other when they've moved together first. So there's something about
Speaker 1: being a human, caring about other humans, feeling connected that
Speaker 1: moving together it just makes happen naturally. So yeah, it
Speaker 1: can be embarrassing to dance with other people, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be dancing. It could be yogur it
Speaker 1: could be tai chie, it could be an aerobics class,
Speaker 1: you know, it could be all kinds of ways moving
Speaker 1: in synchrony with other people. But it's something I think
Speaker 1: we're missing out on definitely, and you can actually get
Speaker 1: the same effect on your own. So I spoke to
Speaker 1: this neuroscientist called Peter Janata who he works on the
Speaker 1: psychology of the groove, which is, you know, getting into
Speaker 1: the groove of music and feeling that you can't help
Speaker 1: but move your body to it. And he says that
Speaker 1: when you're listening to music that's made by other humans
Speaker 1: moving their bodies, that's how the sound is getting creative.
Speaker 1: You're moving along with that. It's kind of like an
Speaker 1: invitation to join in with the band. And so you're
Speaker 1: moving to the movements of other people and you can
Speaker 1: still get this sort of sense that you're part of
Speaker 1: something bigger than yourself. So for even dancing alone in
Speaker 1: your kitchen, which I do quite a lot of, can
Speaker 1: help you feel connected to other people in society. So that's,
Speaker 1: to me, is the most important reason to sort of
Speaker 1: get over ourselves and dance a little bit more. In
Speaker 1: the Science of the groove, he surveyed a wide number
Speaker 1: of people about the groovyous song and regardless of their
Speaker 1: musical interests, one song kind of came out head and
Speaker 1: shoulders above the rest. What was it? Let's give the
Speaker 1: listeners a second to guess. You guess, listeners, guess what
Speaker 1: do you think is the most groovyous song? I'll tell
Speaker 1: you it is not. Groove is in the Heart by Delight,
Speaker 1: So you can take that one off your list. Even
Speaker 1: though it's pretty groovy, it's probably up there though it
Speaker 1: might be all right. Now you can tell us okay, okay,
Speaker 1: I think everyone you've ever heard this will get it immediately.
Speaker 1: It's Superstition by Stevie Wonder. And the reason why maybe
Speaker 1: it's because it's got this syncopated beats, so you're not
Speaker 1: just stomping along to the beat, which which does do
Speaker 1: something amazing to us. We sort of we feel connected
Speaker 1: to the beat and feel empowered that we're going along
Speaker 1: to it, and we get this boost of dopamine feel good.
Speaker 1: But the syncopated beat, it's sort of like a secret rhythm.
Speaker 1: We can decode it and then we can sort of
Speaker 1: roll our hips and move their arms around and then
Speaker 1: you kind of feel groovy. I mean it's a it's
Speaker 1: an outdated word, but we're bringing it back for neuroscience.
Speaker 1: And one idea about you know, why this makes us
Speaker 1: feel good is that there are the balanced organs of
Speaker 1: our inner ear are connected to the limbic system, which
Speaker 1: is the brains sort of emotional control sensors. So when
Speaker 1: we're sort of dancing, we're sort of almost falling and
Speaker 1: catching ourselves, and the syncopated beat gives us this. It's
Speaker 1: a bit like in the same way a joke makes
Speaker 1: us laugh because it sets up expectations and it violates.
Speaker 1: It pulls out the rub from under our feet and
Speaker 1: we laugh because it's funny. The same sort of thing
Speaker 1: happens when we're trying to follow a syncubated beat. We're
Speaker 1: almost falling over and we catch ourselves and we feel good.
Speaker 1: And so we have this kind of lovely feeling that
Speaker 1: we just feel amazing, and that's where we can't help
Speaker 1: but move our bodies to it. So I love that
Speaker 1: I can't resist superstition that was playing a lot in
Speaker 1: my university years and gets me grooving every time. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: dancing is good. I've taken up the occasion or just
Speaker 1: putting on a song and you might call what I'm
Speaker 1: doing jumping around more than dancing, perhaps my old punk
Speaker 1: rock days, but hey, you know it does work. But
Speaker 1: that works the sensitivity of the kind of gravity detectives
Speaker 1: in our ears. They're very sensitive to up and down movement.
Speaker 1: So that's why you know, when, especially when it's loud,
Speaker 1: there's just thing called the rock and roll threshold where
Speaker 1: when the music is above this threshold, I think it's
Speaker 1: a dred and twenty bells. They could be remembering it wrong,
Speaker 1: but anyway, when it's loud enough, people start moving. They
Speaker 1: can't help but Bob, and you know, even if it's
Speaker 1: just a stomp at the feet, in the back to
Speaker 1: the head, you can't help it. And so you know,
Speaker 1: sort of going along. It's a sort of dancing that
Speaker 1: you could do anywhere in the world if someone was drumming,
Speaker 1: and you wouldn't look dark. It's a kind of you
Speaker 1: know that the toddlers do when they first start moving
Speaker 1: with the beat, before they realize they're supposed to be
Speaker 1: embarrassed and they're supposed to not do that, you know,
Speaker 1: stomping around and you know, bashing the air with your fists.
Speaker 1: It makes you feel good, so yeah, you can do
Speaker 1: it by yourself. It's okay, and it still works. I
Speaker 1: actually had the most emba rassing experience joining in with
Speaker 1: a reform dance group that I went to sort of
Speaker 1: as part of my research, and it was it was
Speaker 1: pretty embarrassing the whole thing when when we were wafting around,
Speaker 1: you know, just moving your body wants to and you
Speaker 1: and I was like, my body doesn't want to move,
Speaker 1: my body wants to go home. This is awful. But
Speaker 1: when the beats got going and you know that the
Speaker 1: whole room was just stomping along, it was amazing. And
Speaker 1: by the end of it, I had this sense that
Speaker 1: I wasn't moving my legs and arms, they were moving me.
Speaker 1: I was just along for the ride and it was
Speaker 1: just this amazing feeling. I was on a total high
Speaker 1: for days afterwards. And you know, this was how we
Speaker 1: got out of our minds and just enjoyed being rather
Speaker 1: than thinking. Before. You know, we invented other ways of
Speaker 1: getting out of our minds and it works, and it's
Speaker 1: free and you can do it and you can still
Speaker 1: drive home afterwards. So yeah, it was a bit of
Speaker 1: an eye opener for me. I have to say I
Speaker 1: did a conscious movement free form movement class virtually And
Speaker 1: did you keep your camera on? Yeah, yeah we did,
Speaker 1: and my partner was here with me, and yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a range experience, you know, like just move in the
Speaker 1: way your body wants to move like you. I was like,
Speaker 1: my body wants to hide in a chair in the
Speaker 1: corner the minute you've suggested this, Yes, exactly, I don't
Speaker 1: know my body, it has no idea. Yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: over time I began to unwind a little bit and
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Yeah, I mean I I sort of had
Speaker 1: a word with myself because I was hanging onto the
Speaker 1: radiator in the corner of this sort of drafty village hall,
Speaker 1: and I thought, you know, seriously, the only way you're
Speaker 1: going to look ridiculous in this situation is to stand
Speaker 1: there and not do anything. These people don't know you.
Speaker 1: I mean, I had quite a few friends that said,
Speaker 1: I'll come with you. That sounds funny. I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: that's what I was saying. Having my partner here in
Speaker 1: the house with me almost made it worse. You know,
Speaker 1: it would have been easier with a group of strangers.
Speaker 1: You did another of the things that I suspect would
Speaker 1: be really great, but watching it from the outside, it
Speaker 1: looks painful to even be a part of, which is
Speaker 1: laughter yoga. Yeah, yeah, even even even gives me a
Speaker 1: nervous laugh just even think about it. But but I mean,
Speaker 1: the reason for doing laughter yoga is that studies suggest
Speaker 1: that laughing, a proper belly laugh is a better workout
Speaker 1: for your abs, for your core than crunches. So I mean,
Speaker 1: ideally you would have friends that make you absolutely crack
Speaker 1: up a lot, you know, make your belly saw at
Speaker 1: the end of it. But if not, then laughter yogur
Speaker 1: is is another way of going about it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you still look skeptical. Yeah, I don't get the sense
Speaker 1: you're going back. No, no, I I don't really think
Speaker 1: that is my thing. Luckily, I have very funny friends,
Speaker 1: and a funny husband, and a funny child and a
Speaker 1: dog that I could ear the laugh or cry at
Speaker 1: most of the time because he's such a ridiculous animal.
Speaker 1: But what kind of dog? And now I gotta ask.
Speaker 1: We've talked about him twice. Yeah, he is a colleigue
Speaker 1: crossed with a New Zealand hunter way, which is basically
Speaker 1: they took Welsh colleagues to New Zealand and thought, we
Speaker 1: need a bigger dog that can be more demanding. It
Speaker 1: can run up mountains and it can bark at the
Speaker 1: top of its lungs fourteen hours straight, so he's quite demanding. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know what I do know what I was thinking.
Speaker 1: I was thinking I want a dog and I like collies,
Speaker 1: and I didn't really read up enough about hunter ways.
Speaker 1: I don't recommend it unless you really want to run
Speaker 1: up and downhills. But he's great, great character. He gives
Speaker 1: me moving and you know that there's really no option
Speaker 1: if you've got someone he doesn't do what my previous
Speaker 1: job did, which is just come and stare at you
Speaker 1: until you take him out for a walk. You can
Speaker 1: ignore a stair. He will come and literally bark in
Speaker 1: your face and do you go fine, fine, I'll take
Speaker 1: you out. So yeah, it's not negotiable for him at all.
Speaker 1: And seeing him, you know, I was saying before about
Speaker 1: you know, if other animals dance, maybe we just can't
Speaker 1: tune into it. When he cuts together with other herding
Speaker 1: breeds that it's like they click into each other. Right, Okay,
Speaker 1: you go on the inside. I'll go on the outside
Speaker 1: and just run in circles and it's like their form
Speaker 1: of dance, and you can see that they just feel
Speaker 1: amazing when they're doing it. So maybe we just can't
Speaker 1: tune in. I've heard MutS in the past that have
Speaker 1: a significant amount of Collie and them the hurling instinct
Speaker 1: is fascinating to watch in them. Yeah, it's very strange. Now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have a Boston Terrier. She's old, but she's still
Speaker 1: active and she does I call it her ball or
Speaker 1: her bone dance. She she loves her ball and sometimes
Speaker 1: she loves a bone and basically she just gets on
Speaker 1: her back and rolls like I mean, she doesn't roll,
Speaker 1: she gets in her back and wiggles on top of
Speaker 1: this thing she loves, just over and over and over
Speaker 1: and over again. I mean it looks to all the
Speaker 1: world like she is dancing. Yeah, we called it doggie breakdancing.
Speaker 1: YEA does that too. My dog does that too. He
Speaker 1: likes likes a bit of breakdancing, and he usually teams
Speaker 1: it with a It's like he's singing and dancing when
Speaker 1: he's doing it. You have to be a mad dog
Speaker 1: person to understand. I know, I know we're gonna we're
Speaker 1: gonna have to pivot here so that we don't turn
Speaker 1: this entire show into dogs. Stretching is another part of
Speaker 1: the book, another type of movement, so I want to
Speaker 1: make sure people get all of them. We've got walking,
Speaker 1: strength training, dance, the core, stretching. But where we're gonna
Speaker 1: end is breath control. I've been very interested in breathwork
Speaker 1: over the last year. We had James nestor On who
Speaker 1: wrote a great book about the breath and um but
Speaker 1: you brought up some really great things there also, and
Speaker 1: I wanted to start with meditation, and the most common
Speaker 1: style of meditation probably is to sit and just follow
Speaker 1: your breath, don't control it, just follow it and observe it.
Speaker 1: But you talk about how a scientist or two got
Speaker 1: interested in, Hey, what's happening in the benefits of meditation.
Speaker 1: Is it something to do with what's being done with
Speaker 1: the mind or is it something to do with what's
Speaker 1: being done with the breath. Can you share a little
Speaker 1: bit more about that. Yes, this was sort of trying
Speaker 1: to tease apart whether it's the act of mentally focusing
Speaker 1: on the breath that gives you these sort of changes
Speaker 1: in brain function in the way that you feel, or
Speaker 1: whether it's something to do with the breathing. And it's
Speaker 1: really interesting that the actual act of breathing through your nose,
Speaker 1: in and out through your nose, what you're basically doing
Speaker 1: is harnessing your brain waves and sort of taking their
Speaker 1: rhythm under control, which sounds completely out there, but it
Speaker 1: kind of makes sense when you think about the way
Speaker 1: that the brain works. And again, it's all about getting
Speaker 1: information from your environment and then using that sensibly to
Speaker 1: improve your chances of survival. So when you're taking in
Speaker 1: breath through your nose, there's a lot of information about
Speaker 1: the environment, how safe a rewarding it is in in
Speaker 1: that and so this information goes to the olfactory cortex,
Speaker 1: which is sort of at the top of the nose,
Speaker 1: and then to make use of that information, what you
Speaker 1: then need to do is to get other brain areas,
Speaker 1: so the bits that are to do with memory, to
Speaker 1: make sense of what this information means, and then emotional responses,
Speaker 1: you know, does this make me scared, does this make
Speaker 1: me happy? Whatever? And for all those different brain regions
Speaker 1: to talk to each other, they need to be on
Speaker 1: the same brain wave frequency. And so as a result
Speaker 1: of that working of the brain, when we breathe in
Speaker 1: and out through our nose, the whole brain starts to
Speaker 1: synchronize and beat to the same rhythm. And when we
Speaker 1: slow down our breathing, that has effects of slowing down
Speaker 1: brainwaves that they propagate through the brain. So even as
Speaker 1: I'm saying this, it sounds so far fetched, but this
Speaker 1: is what studies are showing with e g. Which is
Speaker 1: looking at the frequency of brainwaves across the brain and
Speaker 1: so when you really really slow it down. So this
Speaker 1: particular experiment was looking at when you slow your breath
Speaker 1: down to three breaths per minute. So that's really quite
Speaker 1: difficult to keep up. In fact, in the study, a
Speaker 1: few of the volunteers actually fell asleep during your study
Speaker 1: because it was so relaxed. They just drifted off. But
Speaker 1: that can sort of take you into this altered state
Speaker 1: of consciousness where you are more in a sense of
Speaker 1: being rather than thinking. You know, I'm not big on
Speaker 1: sitting around. This explains why all these expert meditators commit
Speaker 1: to all this sitting around and breathing slowly and can
Speaker 1: actually do this for this long because it takes you
Speaker 1: to this amazing state of just being and being at
Speaker 1: one with the universe. I haven't managed it myself, but
Speaker 1: it seems worth aiming for. To me, I would definitely
Speaker 1: fall asleep sleeping. It's like my my thing. I can
Speaker 1: definitely full sleep anywhere, but at different rates. You know,
Speaker 1: six breaths per minute is a lot easier to do,
Speaker 1: And that's if you get people to breathe at different rates,
Speaker 1: the one that they tend to say that was the
Speaker 1: most comfortable and relaxing is six breaths per minute. And interestingly,
Speaker 1: in studies of things like chanting, reciting the Rosary and
Speaker 1: Latin sort of these sort of prayer based practices, studies
Speaker 1: of those have found that it tends to naturally make
Speaker 1: people's breath go to six breaths per minute. So's it's
Speaker 1: almost like humanity has worked out that this is how
Speaker 1: you feel good, This is how you feel calm and
Speaker 1: held and looked after. So breathing it's six breaths per
Speaker 1: minute has all kinds of benefits. It fills your lungs
Speaker 1: more effectively, it activates the veguest nerve, which calms the
Speaker 1: whole nervous system down. And so it's just this very easy.
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't even feat you when you think
Speaker 1: about movement. But this is a voluntary movement that our
Speaker 1: species can do and not many others can, to sort
Speaker 1: of override just the in and out of oxygen into
Speaker 1: our bodies and to take control and that can change
Speaker 1: the way that we feel. And it's such a simple thing.
Speaker 1: Just have to be fit. You don't have to be strong,
Speaker 1: you don't have to be able. Anyone can do it.
Speaker 1: It's really really important thing to do, and we don't
Speaker 1: know yet how important is or whether it makes any
Speaker 1: difference if you do that breathing whilst moving. So I
Speaker 1: find that when I'm breathing and moving, that's how I
Speaker 1: get myself into that kind of calm state, is by
Speaker 1: doing yoga and focusing on breathing. But it seems that
Speaker 1: there is a small amount of evidence that it might
Speaker 1: be even more effective if you're moving and breathing calm
Speaker 1: right at the same time, so you maybe hit more
Speaker 1: of these buttons. You get the core exercise, you get
Speaker 1: the strength, you get, the breathing, you get the stretching,
Speaker 1: all of these things in one Yeah. It's one of
Speaker 1: the things about yoga that when I take it in
Speaker 1: a class, that I wish is that it would slow
Speaker 1: down you know, because you're moving on the in and
Speaker 1: the out breath, you know, is that the movement would
Speaker 1: span a longer breath more to that, you know, five in,
Speaker 1: five out out, which is that's what sixpress per minute
Speaker 1: works out to, right, Five on the inhale, five on
Speaker 1: the exhale. So the kind of yoga that I really
Speaker 1: fell in love with about ten years ago more than
Speaker 1: that now is ashtanga. And you don't follow the instructor
Speaker 1: of your own pace, right, you do your own pace.
Speaker 1: And that's when it really clicked for me that I
Speaker 1: wasn't breathing now, breathe out now. It's like, well, how
Speaker 1: do you know when my lungs are full? You know?
Speaker 1: But if you're doing it your own pace, you can
Speaker 1: really you can really feel it when you get going.
Speaker 1: I have got into that state of being and just
Speaker 1: calm and awareness of my body, and it's an amazing feeling.
Speaker 1: And you don't necessarily get that if somebody's dictating your
Speaker 1: breath that's right, that's right, yeah, yeah, I always find
Speaker 1: that I'm like, the speed is off for me. I
Speaker 1: found the sixpress per minute. I think certain people call
Speaker 1: coherent breathing fascinating that that is the rate that ties
Speaker 1: to a lot of ancient prayer type practices, and then
Speaker 1: three breasts per minute does take a little bit of effort,
Speaker 1: but it's interesting. I'm practicing a little bit differently now,
Speaker 1: but for a while I was a very focused Zen Buddhists,
Speaker 1: so I was really doing that type of meditation. But
Speaker 1: if you go back further into the Zen tradition, there
Speaker 1: is talk about controlling your breath in a way that
Speaker 1: doesn't typically show up in what we think about with meditation,
Speaker 1: and it was about this very light so you're not
Speaker 1: moving a lot of air, but you're doing it, you know,
Speaker 1: closer to what you're describing, which is that you know,
Speaker 1: three breasts per minute. That's really interesting. So, yeah, you
Speaker 1: don't have to be sort of huffing and puffing and
Speaker 1: making your effort, but what you're doing is sort of
Speaker 1: taking control and sort of controlling the rate. The research
Speaker 1: we suggest that what you're doing is really sort of
Speaker 1: slowing down the activity of the brain, and then that
Speaker 1: can get you into this state of zen. I guess,
Speaker 1: you know, the state of being and being at one
Speaker 1: with the universe. Yeah, and I think that's what makes
Speaker 1: slow breathing hard for a lot of people is we
Speaker 1: tend to equate slow breathing with deep breathing, which we
Speaker 1: then sort of naturally equate with moving a lot of air.
Speaker 1: So there's this like, you know this strong you can't
Speaker 1: inhale that forcefully for ten seconds, Like, it doesn't work
Speaker 1: that way. It's a much lighter moving less air over
Speaker 1: a longer period of time. Anyway, Thank you so much,
Speaker 1: Caroline for coming on the show. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for this wonderful book that teaches us so much about
Speaker 1: how to move. And you've just got a line which
Speaker 1: is basically the messages move more in your brain will
Speaker 1: thank you in the long run and in the short
Speaker 1: run absolutely, Yeah, yeah, your life will will be better. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, what's the worst that can happen. You've moved,
Speaker 1: you get healthier, you've had a good time. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: can always sit down afterwards. And you know, at the
Speaker 1: end of the book, I talk about rest and the
Speaker 1: importance of rest. It's not about necessarily getting more exercise
Speaker 1: in it's about moving your body around more and it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to hurt. You don't even have to change
Speaker 1: your clothes and shoes. You just have to remember that
Speaker 1: you're an animal. That needs to move and stretch and
Speaker 1: breathe and make sure that you do that well. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much, Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1: It's been lovely to talk to you. I think I've
Speaker 1: led a lot to If what you just heard was
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