WEBVTT - How the Backlash to Climate Protest Laid the Groundwork for What We're Seeing in U.S. Cities Today 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:12.160 Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westerveldt. Obviously, 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:16.599 there is a lot to be outraged by and fearful 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:20.319 of happening in the US right now, and as is 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:25.200 the case whenever anything is happening outside of extreme weather events, 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.640 there's been a chorus right now chanting who cares about 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.360 climate change? Who cares about a far off problem when 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:36.680 there are so many more urgent threats. It should go 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.320 without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Anyone who cares 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:44.760 about mitigating climate risk should absolutely be showing up to 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:50.120 fight for democracy. The same administration that is shooting citizens 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:54.400 in the street for exercising their first Amendment right is 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:58.160 after all, trying to get rid of the Environmental Protection Agency, 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:03.280 the National Oceanic and apple Miospheric Administration, and all of 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.160 the protections that go along with them. I would say 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:08.440 that those of us who think the world should act 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:12.479 according to the scientific evidence on not only climate change 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.120 but also air and water pollution, should be able to 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:17.520 walk and chew gum at least as well as the 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:21.720 goon's intent on destroying the so called administrative state in 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:26.040 the US giving a shit about the long term viability 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.640 of the human species is very much aligned with protecting 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:33.440 your fellow humans on the streets today. There are also 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:37.440 a whole bunch of ways that these issues directly intersect, 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.880 one of which is the topic of today's show. From 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.200 twenty twenty two to twenty twenty four, we reported, wrote, 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.600 and produced an investigation into the increasing repression of climate 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.240 protests around the world. It was called the Real Free 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.080 Speech Threat, a not to the fact that while these 0:01:55.120 --> 0:02:00.560 supposed free speech warriors were worrying about cancel cultures were 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:05.240 actually threatening political speech all over the world. The problem 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.080 has unfortunately only gotten worse, and in many ways, the 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.760 backlash to climate protest lay the groundwork for the way 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:16.120 we're seeing protesters treated in the streets of Minneapolis and 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.760 lots of other cities around the world today. Last month, 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.160 I caught up with researcher Oscar Bergland, who recently released 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:27.079 the first ever peer reviewed study of the global repression 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:31.640 of climate protest. Some of Drill's reporting actually fed into 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.520 that research, and I was curious to hear from Oscar 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:37.960 what he and his team learn and how things have 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.680 progressed in recent years. It tells us a lot about 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.640 not just the fight for a livable world, but also 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.679 the fight for a just one. That conversation is coming 0:02:48.760 --> 0:03:00.280 up right after this quick break. 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.720 I am a doctor Oscar Bergland, and I work at 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.400 the School for Policy Studies at the University of Bristol. 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.280 Tell me a little bit about this paper and what 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:18.440 prompted you to write it. I was shocked when you 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:22.880 put it out and noted that it's the first a 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:28.160 pandemic peer of you paper on repression of climate protests because. 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:30.360 I had seen, you know, like a fair bit of 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.160 media coverage topic and surprising to me that there hadn't 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.240 been more research on it. So I'm curious why you 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.680 think that is, and then what prompted you to want 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:40.680 to do this paper. 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:47.320 Yeah, so the main reason why there isn't more research 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:51.680 on this is probably that research is slow. Academic research 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.160 is slow, and adrilled have obviously been really early on 0:03:55.160 --> 0:04:00.840 on reporting about this and what this paper was the 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:03.400 first of was kind of taking this kind of global, 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.960 international perspective, and of course you have done that in 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.800 your reporting, and Michelle Force, you know that you and 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:15.600 Special Rapperteires certainly also takes a kind of international, global 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:20.200 perspective in writing about these things, and talking about these things. 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:22.359 So it's not like we're the first in the world 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.560 to take this global, international perspective. But this is, as 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:29.640 far as I know, the first pre viewed publication to 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:34.200 come out to do so. And probably remember, you know, 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.320 I obviously have been kind of looking into these things 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.160 for a couple of years now. You and I have 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.080 talked about it before, and you know, we obviously give 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.200 a shout out to your work. 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:47.600 I suppose what brought. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.719 Me to study this topic in the first place is 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.680 that I studied climate change activism. I studied civil disobedience 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:56.719 very much, the kind of wave of twenty eighteen twenty 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:01.640 nineteen climate protests, and then during the pandemic, particularly in 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.320 twenty twenty one, it became pretty obvious that there was 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:08.920 a clampdown on protests, and therefore I started. 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:09.800 Looking at that. 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:13.360 And I think when we started this project, because we've 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.800 been doing this for two years here now, and when 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:20.760 we started this, we started with a list very helpfully 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:26.120 provided by you, which had laws, various laws in various 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:32.440 countries or states that were criminalizing protests in various ways. 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:37.000 So then we looked deeper into that. We've extended that list. 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:39.960 When you look at these new laws. You can see 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.680 that they obviously have geographical differences. I think you can 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:50.560 tell when places have extractive industries that there are certain 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:56.960 types of protest tactics that are particularly targeted through new laws. 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:01.720 So we can see this in Australia, for example, particularly 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.960 with states that have extractive industries or go harsher on 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.800 things like block ons and things that protesters might do 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:14.080 at sites of extraction. And there seems to be a 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.000 fair bit of copy and paste, particularly in the US 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:21.600 context of these anti protest laws, but there's also a 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:25.320 lot of kind of local variation of what types of 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:30.520 protest is being criminalized. And then we realized, well, actually, 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:35.040 if we're talking about a repression criminalization of climate protests, 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:40.960 then those laws are just one aspect of the criminalization. 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:45.039 And what we see perhaps much more is what we 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:50.360 call here creative and strategic legal interventions, which is basically 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.960 using or misusing laws created for a different purpose and 0:06:55.839 --> 0:07:01.839 using it against climate and environmental activists, or changes to 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.560 court procedures and so on. What you've seen loads over 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.480 here in the UK where limit what can be said 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.760 in court, what kind of defenses can be used. I mean, 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.960 now they're even trying to get rid of jury trials 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.760 for certain kind of trials, because juries are more likely 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.160 to find defendants not guilty than if you just have 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.160 sort of judges making that decision. 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:26.440 So that's one aspect, and then. 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:30.800 Of course you have this third very important aspect, which 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:35.200 is that most of the repression and criminalization that activists 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:39.400 face is in relation to the police. I mean, most 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.800 of them don't end up in court, right. So then 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:47.960 you know, looking at house arrests used, how surveillance used, 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.320 and harassment and other kind of forms. 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:51.120 Of police violence. 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.440 So for the report that came out a year earlier 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:58.080 and then the paper that came out last month, looking 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:02.120 at the data and we see quite you know, important 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:10.720 and interesting differences in how the police police protest mental activism. 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.640 So which shows us, for example, that you know, France, 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:19.600 you're much more likely to get violently attacked by the police. 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.680 Police are much more likely to use gas or water 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.560 canons or other forms of police kind of violence against 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:28.760 you than you are in a country like the UK 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:32.760 or in most other European countries. And whilst you know, 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.400 in the UK and Australia you've had this huge amount 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.800 of arrests for example, which obviously is because you've had 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.800 extinction rebellion and groups like that habit use the arrest 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.560 as a means of protest in a way that is 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:50.000 behind that data. But like still it shows, you know, 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:55.200 differences in police in practices for sure. So those three 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.920 three different categories all for us come under this kind 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:00.800 of criminalization aspect. 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:01.679 And two of my. 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:05.559 Colleagues that have written this paper with identify as criminologists, 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:07.800 so they see themselves as criminologists. I'm more of a 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.880 political scientist, and so host Chris, who's another course or 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:15.280 the paper. And so if that's criminalization, then when we 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:18.320 move over to the even darker aspects of this, which 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:22.040 is you know, the killings and disappearances which arrive in 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:26.959 certain countries, then that's beyond criminalization. 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.120 If you murder somebody minorizing them, that's you know. 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:32.880 So that's why we felt we needed you know, criminalization 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:34.160 isn't enough to capture this. 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:35.800 We need pression. 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.280 We need repression more rarely to capture all of this. 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.960 And actually those killings and disappearances often follow the kind 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:48.440 of harassment and surveillance that are part of police action. 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.920 Then of course, in many countries have state actors with 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:56.280 the Trio police that carry out a lot of those killings. 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:00.840 And then lastly, you know something that you have covered 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.760 a lot as well, is that all of this is 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:11.439 kind of justified and enabled by a constant vilification by 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:16.439 media outlets, by politicians and on social media, trolling accounts 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:22.640 and so on of climate activists. During the time that 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:26.560 we've studied this, you know, you had use of anti 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:33.079 terror legislation against suliman Let in France. You had organized 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:39.400 crime legislation used against Leicster generacy in Germany, and against 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:43.040 Tottutal in Spain. So you know, these are all European 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:47.280 countries that are supposed to be the more democratic ones 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:52.000 that use that kind of legislation that obviously is not 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:57.680 designed to be used against non violent activist groups, right, 0:10:57.920 --> 0:10:59.360 and in a way that I mean, how is that 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.560 different from what the Filipino state has been engaging in 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.280 in for a long time now, which is you know 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:11.000 this no red tagging where they label any activists that 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.199 they don't like, they label them, you know, communist terrorists 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.200 and hence the red tagging, and therefore they removed a 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.800 whole bunch of rights that otherwise they would have right, 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:26.160 which is it's it's the same process, right for sure, 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.720 in Germany and France. You run a lot lower risk 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.800 of in you know, killed by the military, as you 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.400 certainly do in the Philippines, but the process is the 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:40.439 same in many ways. So I think that that surprised 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.640 us a bit. I think the extent to which and 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.160 I've been we've been following this more closely as posed 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.360 in the UK because we live here, but the extent 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:55.480 to which court processes are constantly changed, and how the 0:11:55.520 --> 0:12:00.280 goal posts are constantly changed, and this really strange thing 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.559 which I think would not be possible in a lot 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.480 of countries. But what has happened in the UK at 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.560 order is that you can do a Protest Act in 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.840 twenty twenty two before the Public Order Act becomes law, 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.240 and then you go to trial two years later and 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:22.440 you're sentenced using the Public Order Act, which didn't exist 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.440 in that form when when the when the acts took place. 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:27.679 I mean, that's insane. 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.120 Kin imagine if people tried to do that to you know, 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:36.319 corporations with tax law, there'd be yeah, we'd never hear 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:36.920 the end of it. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:38.920 We wouldn't. 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.120 And so that's and obviously so you know, the UK 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:45.040 is so probably the place where I have spoken more 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:47.760 to activists because you know, I live here and I 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.800 know I've been and speaking to these people who oh, 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.240 you know, have live court cases and are yeah, really 0:12:55.559 --> 0:13:00.520 really scared about that kind of thing. The the way 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.920 in which you know, it really matters who your judges, 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:09.840 and you know, if you certain judges have real grudges 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.559 against activists, whether those whether they exist the kind of 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.920 actual financial links or not, whether it's just kind of 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:22.000 political grudges that judges have against activists. 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:23.320 But it's obvious that. 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:27.800 Some do and have been much much harsher in the 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.719 restrictions that they have put in in their courtrooms and 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:35.679 so on, and the kind of deep politicization of the 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:40.840 courtroom or you know, attempted depoliticization of the courtroom here 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.719 in the UK, and which I think is replicated in 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:47.000 several other countries as well, where you know, you're not 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:49.080 allowed to talk about climate change and or allowed to 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.600 talk about anything about what motivated you to do it. 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:53.640 I mean that's insane. 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:58.760 Any crime that has been committed, you talk about the motivation, right, 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.720 That's part bit, isn't it. But no here in these 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:07.560 in these what is political trials, you're not allowed to 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.000 talk about about the politics of it. 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.920 So talking the other day and back to one of 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:18.840 the health workers that is on trial for protests in 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:23.600 the UK, I think their their trial is February, and 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.960 they were saying that in their initial hearing too, that 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:31.800 they were yeah, like effectively told that they whatever they 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.840 had to say wouldn't wouldn't qualify as a legal defense anyway, 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.240 so they couldn't say anything, which I'm like, I don't 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:45.560 understand how that doesn't constitute effectively not allowing someone a defense. 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:52.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if you look 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.200 at the experiences of these activists that have gone through 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.480 the trials and so on as well, what these knew 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:00.960 what the Public Order Act did was you know, really 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:05.200 limiting their civil liberties when they are out, you know, 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.520 on remand or just been released from prison that you know, 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.440 on paper, they're not allowed to do anything. They're not 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.680 allowed to go anywhere near a protest, They're not allowed 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:20.400 to go be engaged with perfectly legal groups of activists. 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.080 So you know, whether you know that is ultimately policed 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:28.040 or not is of course another matter, But on paper, 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.360 they're not allowed to do very much at all, and 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:35.440 their civil liberties are significantly restricted. And that kind of 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:38.440 brings me in the point about you know, is it 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.520 police or not. That brings me into because in the 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:46.760 kind of theoretical criminalization literature, there's this kind of distinction 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.280 between you know, one thing is what is criminalized in law, 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:57.200 and one thing is what is actually in practice criminalized. 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.920 So you know, like the law allows for the whole 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.600 bunch of types of criminalization that aren't actually then policed 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:08.240 or acted on in society. And here we can see that, 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.960 you know, the new powers that were given to the 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.640 police in the UK early on were used almost exclusively 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:19.680 against climate protesters, soil against against just topoil, and that 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:24.000 was a group that was very heavily criminalized by the 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.320 state and by their police. Now I think we've seen 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:32.920 very obviously a heavy criminalization of the Palestine protesters as well, 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.920 and not at least obviously Palestine action that was proscribed 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:39.520 as a terrorist organization again very much you know, misusing 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:43.680 this label. And here also done many interviews with foreign 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:48.440 journalists who all, you know, think that it's ridiculous that 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.520 this happened, because you know, it's easy to criticize what 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:53.920 goes on in other countries harder to do it in 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:55.160 their own country. 0:16:55.560 --> 0:17:00.040 Yeah, I'm curious because we're thinking about building on a 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:04.040 series that we did on criminalization of activists to look 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:08.119 at criminalization of civil society. 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:11.120 Organizations now is sort of like the next phase. 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:15.000 I'm curious what you think about that and if you 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:16.200 looked at that as. 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:20.240 Part of the oppression tactics as well, or what you 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:21.800 found as you were looking. 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:26.639 Yeah, absolutely so in some countries that's really obvious. And 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.679 to be honest, the way that criminalization has happened in 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:36.160 Russia has been a lot about foreign NGOs, and now 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.240 one of our countries that we look at is Peru, 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:44.159 and in Peru you have a new law that particularly 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:49.359 targets NGOs that might in some way support activists in 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:54.840 the country. So that is definitely a really important part 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.760 of repression and has been more common in some countries 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.359 than in others, for sure. But it's scared so you 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.960 see that more Where have you seen it stuck the 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:06.760 case in the US? 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:12.000 Yes, And now the foreign influence law thing is becoming 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.399 a real in the US, both at the national level, 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.640 which is interesting because actually Farah was something that we've 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:23.320 used in the past as a reporting tool to understand 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:27.879 like which us PR firms and whatever else are doing 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:30.160 work for like Saudi Arabia for example. 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.000 That's been like the use of Farah in recent years. 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:37.960 This is the foreign agent station, and now the Trump 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:42.720 administration is using it to go after climate organization. 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:48.879 Yeah, they're talking at there's now a few local level 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:50.640 foreign influence laws. 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.680 Being floated, which I have not seen in other countries. 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:58.120 So they're talking about state level foreign influence laws, which 0:18:58.160 --> 0:18:59.399 would be really, really weird. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.360 I suppose one thing that we really wanted to do 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:07.399 in the paper is to you know, address this kind 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:11.200 of separation between kind of global North of global South, 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:15.600 or kind of more democratic and or less democratic countries 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:21.000 and actually say, obviously, you do run much more risks 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:25.840 being an activist in the Philippines or Mexico or Brazil 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.000 than you do in the in the US, or in 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:33.720 the UK or in Sweden. But a lot of the 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:40.040 similar strategies are used to repress protest and activism across 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.800 this so it's not a kind of categorical difference in 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:47.400 most instances, it's a difference in degree and so on. 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.639 Take the thing about angios, right. I mean this is 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.440 justified in terms that would be justified in Russia, and 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:59.520 that we would be our governments would feel really free 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.840 to create de size Russia about being authoritarian about but 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.800 then they do very similar things at home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.560 And that's the kind of I suppose thing that we 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.800 really want to call out and observe. And I think 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:22.080 it's scary that those lines are being increasingly blurred. So 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.879 I'm Swedish, proven right, and Sweden and are two countries 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:32.360 with vastly different histories and civil liberties, equality, all sorts. 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.960 So when people ask, you know, is this going to 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:41.359 basically kill protests? Obviously it doesn't, right. I mean, people 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:47.199 protest under the most horrendous, repressive circumstances, you know, as 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:51.040 we are, well, it would be wrong to see that 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.560 we're seeing it. But I mean something is going on 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.119 in Iran as we speak, and it's certainly not the 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.560 case that Iranians don't protest because of how repressive the 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:06.560 Iranian regime is. Protest has continued to happen in Iran. 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:09.960 Obviously it becomes a lot more dangerous, but repression is 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:14.320 ne one hundreds percent successful in repressing protests so this 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:16.919 is a really interesting question that you know, people, you know, 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.399 how does this change protest? And I think that's something 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:25.359 that we want to explore further and understand more about, 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:29.520 because it doesn't kill off protests, it changes the conditions 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:31.720 under which we protest. 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:36.719 Yeah, that is something that I think we saw a 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:40.520 lot in the reporting too, that it's like more violent 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:45.840 and maybe more obvious in some global South countries, but 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:50.000 not dissimilar in the person I would say. 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:52.359 And you know, now, at. 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:55.080 Least in the US, we're starting to see a huge 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.040 uptick in state violence as well. 0:21:58.480 --> 0:21:59.240 So two things. 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:04.280 One completely accidentally because I was looking, I was pulling 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:09.320 all a video from various press conferences that Marco Rubio, 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:12.440 is the Secretary of State for the US, has been 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:16.919 doing since March, because there's quite a bit in what 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:17.920 he was saying that. 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:20.280 Has to do with what's happening in Venezuela right now. 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:22.000 So I was just sort of like, Okay, what's he 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:25.359 been saying over these months or whatever. I didn't know 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.360 this was happening before I watched all of those videos, 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:31.200 but it seems like the press corps that was traveling 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:35.160 with him like decided amongst themselves that one of them 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:38.240 at each press conference he did, would ask him about 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:44.439 the repression of campus protest and it's very it's pretty 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.880 amusing because he gets very irritated by it every time 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:53.960 they have, you know, unfortunately, many varieties of questions to ask, 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:57.440 but one of the things that has come up in 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:00.680 is a that he way that he. 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:03.119 Talks about protesters in general. 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:06.760 And definitely it seems like, you know, the way that 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:10.280 a lot of these countries have been talking about and 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:14.720 treating climate protesters was then just like copy pasted to 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:20.080 Gaza protesters as well. So one of the reporters in 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:24.080 I think it was in Surinam asked him, you know, 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:29.119 you had condemned China in twenty nineteen for repression of 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:33.840 student protests. Would you say that today you agree with 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:38.080 the Chinese government and its view of protest. 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:42.200 It's good and now it's done for ETWO from the. 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:46.280 New York Times, I thank you, mister Prinsident of mister 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.840 secretary for taking questions from US. Mister secretary, first to 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:54.359 you related to China. In twenty nineteen, you supported legislation 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:57.440 to have the US government support the protesters in Hong Kong. 0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:00.600 The pro democracy protesters, and mostly the protests are peaceful, 0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:04.119 but also occasionally the disrupted public life. And so, based 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:07.840 on your rationale for deporting campus protesters in the US, 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:10.760 would you now support the Chinese Commanist Party or hall 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:14.600 authorities deporting foreigners who took part in those protests in twenty. 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:16.520 Nine of person It is silly because so the people 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:18.639 that we're getting rid of in our country are vandalizing 0:24:18.800 --> 0:24:21.280 call They're not protesters who are taking over college campuses. 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:22.800 They're harassing fellow students. 0:24:23.240 --> 0:24:24.679 We let them in our country to study. 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:26.520 We gave them a visa because they said I want 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:28.280 to go to a university, I want to get a degree. 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:29.960 They didn't say I want to go to university and 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:32.159 I want to vandalize your library, and I want to 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:34.240 wear a mask over my face like off it's Halloween 0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:36.439 and terrorized people. We didn't give them a visa to 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:38.720 do any of that. So we don't want those people 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:43.600 in our country. They're not they're not demonstrating for there. 0:24:43.680 --> 0:24:46.760 They're going beyond demonstration. They are going and they're creating 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:50.600 a ruckus. They are creating riots basically on campus, and 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:52.680 it's making it's unfair for students. Some of these schools 0:24:52.720 --> 0:24:54.960 are some of the most expensive schools we have in America. 0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:56.960 People bay a lot of money to go to these schools. 0:24:56.960 --> 0:24:58.240 They borrow money to go to these schools, and you 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:00.440 can't even go to class because some want a tech 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:03.880 who's covering their phase is running through campus, spray paying things, 0:25:03.960 --> 0:25:05.879 harassing people, and they're in my country. 0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:06.439 As a guest. 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:08.720 We want them out, every one of them. I find 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:09.920 We're going to kick them out. 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:11.719 That's an amazing question. 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:15.280