1 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westerveldt. Obviously, 2 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: there is a lot to be outraged by and fearful 3 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: of happening in the US right now, and as is 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: the case whenever anything is happening outside of extreme weather events, 5 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: there's been a chorus right now chanting who cares about 6 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: climate change? Who cares about a far off problem when 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: there are so many more urgent threats. It should go 8 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Anyone who cares 9 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: about mitigating climate risk should absolutely be showing up to 10 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: fight for democracy. The same administration that is shooting citizens 11 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: in the street for exercising their first Amendment right is 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: after all, trying to get rid of the Environmental Protection Agency, 13 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: the National Oceanic and apple Miospheric Administration, and all of 14 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: the protections that go along with them. I would say 15 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: that those of us who think the world should act 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: according to the scientific evidence on not only climate change 17 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: but also air and water pollution, should be able to 18 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: walk and chew gum at least as well as the 19 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: goon's intent on destroying the so called administrative state in 20 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: the US giving a shit about the long term viability 21 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: of the human species is very much aligned with protecting 22 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: your fellow humans on the streets today. There are also 23 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of ways that these issues directly intersect, 24 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: one of which is the topic of today's show. From 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two to twenty twenty four, we reported, wrote, 26 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: and produced an investigation into the increasing repression of climate 27 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: protests around the world. It was called the Real Free 28 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: Speech Threat, a not to the fact that while these 29 00:01:55,120 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: supposed free speech warriors were worrying about cancel cultures were 30 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: actually threatening political speech all over the world. The problem 31 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: has unfortunately only gotten worse, and in many ways, the 32 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: backlash to climate protest lay the groundwork for the way 33 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: we're seeing protesters treated in the streets of Minneapolis and 34 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: lots of other cities around the world today. Last month, 35 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: I caught up with researcher Oscar Bergland, who recently released 36 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: the first ever peer reviewed study of the global repression 37 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: of climate protest. Some of Drill's reporting actually fed into 38 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: that research, and I was curious to hear from Oscar 39 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: what he and his team learn and how things have 40 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: progressed in recent years. It tells us a lot about 41 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: not just the fight for a livable world, but also 42 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,679 Speaker 1: the fight for a just one. That conversation is coming 43 00:02:48,760 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: up right after this quick break. 44 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: I am a doctor Oscar Bergland, and I work at 45 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: the School for Policy Studies at the University of Bristol. 46 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 3: Tell me a little bit about this paper and what 47 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 3: prompted you to write it. I was shocked when you 48 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: put it out and noted that it's the first a 49 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 3: pandemic peer of you paper on repression of climate protests because. 50 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 4: I had seen, you know, like a fair bit of 51 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 4: media coverage topic and surprising to me that there hadn't 52 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 4: been more research on it. So I'm curious why you 53 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 4: think that is, and then what prompted you to want 54 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 4: to do this paper. 55 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the main reason why there isn't more research 56 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 2: on this is probably that research is slow. Academic research 57 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: is slow, and adrilled have obviously been really early on 58 00:03:55,160 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 2: on reporting about this and what this paper was the 59 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: first of was kind of taking this kind of global, 60 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: international perspective, and of course you have done that in 61 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: your reporting, and Michelle Force, you know that you and 62 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 2: Special Rapperteires certainly also takes a kind of international, global 63 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: perspective in writing about these things, and talking about these things. 64 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 2: So it's not like we're the first in the world 65 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: to take this global, international perspective. But this is, as 66 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: far as I know, the first pre viewed publication to 67 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: come out to do so. And probably remember, you know, 68 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: I obviously have been kind of looking into these things 69 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 2: for a couple of years now. You and I have 70 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: talked about it before, and you know, we obviously give 71 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: a shout out to your work. 72 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 5: I suppose what brought. 73 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 2: Me to study this topic in the first place is 74 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: that I studied climate change activism. I studied civil disobedience 75 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 2: very much, the kind of wave of twenty eighteen twenty 76 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 2: nineteen climate protests, and then during the pandemic, particularly in 77 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, it became pretty obvious that there was 78 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 2: a clampdown on protests, and therefore I started. 79 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 5: Looking at that. 80 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 2: And I think when we started this project, because we've 81 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 2: been doing this for two years here now, and when 82 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: we started this, we started with a list very helpfully 83 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 2: provided by you, which had laws, various laws in various 84 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: countries or states that were criminalizing protests in various ways. 85 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: So then we looked deeper into that. We've extended that list. 86 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: When you look at these new laws. You can see 87 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: that they obviously have geographical differences. I think you can 88 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: tell when places have extractive industries that there are certain 89 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 2: types of protest tactics that are particularly targeted through new laws. 90 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 2: So we can see this in Australia, for example, particularly 91 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: with states that have extractive industries or go harsher on 92 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: things like block ons and things that protesters might do 93 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 2: at sites of extraction. And there seems to be a 94 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: fair bit of copy and paste, particularly in the US 95 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 2: context of these anti protest laws, but there's also a 96 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 2: lot of kind of local variation of what types of 97 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: protest is being criminalized. And then we realized, well, actually, 98 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 2: if we're talking about a repression criminalization of climate protests, 99 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 2: then those laws are just one aspect of the criminalization. 100 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 2: And what we see perhaps much more is what we 101 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 2: call here creative and strategic legal interventions, which is basically 102 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: using or misusing laws created for a different purpose and 103 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 2: using it against climate and environmental activists, or changes to 104 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: court procedures and so on. What you've seen loads over 105 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 2: here in the UK where limit what can be said 106 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: in court, what kind of defenses can be used. I mean, 107 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: now they're even trying to get rid of jury trials 108 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: for certain kind of trials, because juries are more likely 109 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: to find defendants not guilty than if you just have 110 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: sort of judges making that decision. 111 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 5: So that's one aspect, and then. 112 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: Of course you have this third very important aspect, which 113 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: is that most of the repression and criminalization that activists 114 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: face is in relation to the police. I mean, most 115 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: of them don't end up in court, right. So then 116 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: you know, looking at house arrests used, how surveillance used, 117 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: and harassment and other kind of forms. 118 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 5: Of police violence. 119 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: So for the report that came out a year earlier 120 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: and then the paper that came out last month, looking 121 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: at the data and we see quite you know, important 122 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: and interesting differences in how the police police protest mental activism. 123 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: So which shows us, for example, that you know, France, 124 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: you're much more likely to get violently attacked by the police. 125 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 2: Police are much more likely to use gas or water 126 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: canons or other forms of police kind of violence against 127 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: you than you are in a country like the UK 128 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: or in most other European countries. And whilst you know, 129 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: in the UK and Australia you've had this huge amount 130 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 2: of arrests for example, which obviously is because you've had 131 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: extinction rebellion and groups like that habit use the arrest 132 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 2: as a means of protest in a way that is 133 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: behind that data. But like still it shows, you know, 134 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 2: differences in police in practices for sure. So those three 135 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 2: three different categories all for us come under this kind 136 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 2: of criminalization aspect. 137 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 5: And two of my. 138 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 2: Colleagues that have written this paper with identify as criminologists, 139 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: so they see themselves as criminologists. I'm more of a 140 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: political scientist, and so host Chris, who's another course or 141 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: the paper. And so if that's criminalization, then when we 142 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 2: move over to the even darker aspects of this, which 143 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: is you know, the killings and disappearances which arrive in 144 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 2: certain countries, then that's beyond criminalization. 145 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 5: If you murder somebody minorizing them, that's you know. 146 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: So that's why we felt we needed you know, criminalization 147 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: isn't enough to capture this. 148 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 5: We need pression. 149 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 2: We need repression more rarely to capture all of this. 150 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 2: And actually those killings and disappearances often follow the kind 151 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 2: of harassment and surveillance that are part of police action. 152 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 2: Then of course, in many countries have state actors with 153 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: the Trio police that carry out a lot of those killings. 154 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 2: And then lastly, you know something that you have covered 155 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: a lot as well, is that all of this is 156 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 2: kind of justified and enabled by a constant vilification by 157 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 2: media outlets, by politicians and on social media, trolling accounts 158 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: and so on of climate activists. During the time that 159 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 2: we've studied this, you know, you had use of anti 160 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 2: terror legislation against suliman Let in France. You had organized 161 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: crime legislation used against Leicster generacy in Germany, and against 162 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: Tottutal in Spain. So you know, these are all European 163 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: countries that are supposed to be the more democratic ones 164 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 2: that use that kind of legislation that obviously is not 165 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 2: designed to be used against non violent activist groups, right, 166 00:10:57,920 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: and in a way that I mean, how is that 167 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: different from what the Filipino state has been engaging in 168 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 2: in for a long time now, which is you know 169 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: this no red tagging where they label any activists that 170 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 2: they don't like, they label them, you know, communist terrorists 171 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: and hence the red tagging, and therefore they removed a 172 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: whole bunch of rights that otherwise they would have right, 173 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: which is it's it's the same process, right for sure, 174 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: in Germany and France. You run a lot lower risk 175 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: of in you know, killed by the military, as you 176 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 2: certainly do in the Philippines, but the process is the 177 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 2: same in many ways. So I think that that surprised 178 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: us a bit. I think the extent to which and 179 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: I've been we've been following this more closely as posed 180 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: in the UK because we live here, but the extent 181 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: to which court processes are constantly changed, and how the 182 00:11:55,520 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 2: goal posts are constantly changed, and this really strange thing 183 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 2: which I think would not be possible in a lot 184 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: of countries. But what has happened in the UK at 185 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 2: order is that you can do a Protest Act in 186 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two before the Public Order Act becomes law, 187 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: and then you go to trial two years later and 188 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 2: you're sentenced using the Public Order Act, which didn't exist 189 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 2: in that form when when the when the acts took place. 190 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 2: I mean, that's insane. 191 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 3: Kin imagine if people tried to do that to you know, 192 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 3: corporations with tax law, there'd be yeah, we'd never hear 193 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 3: the end of it. 194 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 5: We wouldn't. 195 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 2: And so that's and obviously so you know, the UK 196 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 2: is so probably the place where I have spoken more 197 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: to activists because you know, I live here and I 198 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: know I've been and speaking to these people who oh, 199 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 2: you know, have live court cases and are yeah, really 200 00:12:55,559 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: really scared about that kind of thing. The the way 201 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: in which you know, it really matters who your judges, 202 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 2: and you know, if you certain judges have real grudges 203 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 2: against activists, whether those whether they exist the kind of 204 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: actual financial links or not, whether it's just kind of 205 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: political grudges that judges have against activists. 206 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 5: But it's obvious that. 207 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: Some do and have been much much harsher in the 208 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,719 Speaker 2: restrictions that they have put in in their courtrooms and 209 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 2: so on, and the kind of deep politicization of the 210 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 2: courtroom or you know, attempted depoliticization of the courtroom here 211 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,719 Speaker 2: in the UK, and which I think is replicated in 212 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 2: several other countries as well, where you know, you're not 213 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 2: allowed to talk about climate change and or allowed to 214 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 2: talk about anything about what motivated you to do it. 215 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 5: I mean that's insane. 216 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 2: Any crime that has been committed, you talk about the motivation, right, 217 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 2: That's part bit, isn't it. But no here in these 218 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: in these what is political trials, you're not allowed to 219 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 2: talk about about the politics of it. 220 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 3: So talking the other day and back to one of 221 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 3: the health workers that is on trial for protests in 222 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 3: the UK, I think their their trial is February, and 223 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 3: they were saying that in their initial hearing too, that 224 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: they were yeah, like effectively told that they whatever they 225 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 3: had to say wouldn't wouldn't qualify as a legal defense anyway, 226 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 3: so they couldn't say anything, which I'm like, I don't 227 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 3: understand how that doesn't constitute effectively not allowing someone a defense. 228 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if you look 229 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 2: at the experiences of these activists that have gone through 230 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: the trials and so on as well, what these knew 231 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: what the Public Order Act did was you know, really 232 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: limiting their civil liberties when they are out, you know, 233 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: on remand or just been released from prison that you know, 234 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 2: on paper, they're not allowed to do anything. They're not 235 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 2: allowed to go anywhere near a protest, They're not allowed 236 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: to go be engaged with perfectly legal groups of activists. 237 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: So you know, whether you know that is ultimately policed 238 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 2: or not is of course another matter, But on paper, 239 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 2: they're not allowed to do very much at all, and 240 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: their civil liberties are significantly restricted. And that kind of 241 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 2: brings me in the point about you know, is it 242 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: police or not. That brings me into because in the 243 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 2: kind of theoretical criminalization literature, there's this kind of distinction 244 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: between you know, one thing is what is criminalized in law, 245 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 2: and one thing is what is actually in practice criminalized. 246 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 2: So you know, like the law allows for the whole 247 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: bunch of types of criminalization that aren't actually then policed 248 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: or acted on in society. And here we can see that, 249 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: you know, the new powers that were given to the 250 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 2: police in the UK early on were used almost exclusively 251 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 2: against climate protesters, soil against against just topoil, and that 252 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 2: was a group that was very heavily criminalized by the 253 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 2: state and by their police. Now I think we've seen 254 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: very obviously a heavy criminalization of the Palestine protesters as well, 255 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: and not at least obviously Palestine action that was proscribed 256 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: as a terrorist organization again very much you know, misusing 257 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: this label. And here also done many interviews with foreign 258 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 2: journalists who all, you know, think that it's ridiculous that 259 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 2: this happened, because you know, it's easy to criticize what 260 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: goes on in other countries harder to do it in 261 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 2: their own country. 262 00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm curious because we're thinking about building on a 263 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 3: series that we did on criminalization of activists to look 264 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 3: at criminalization of civil society. 265 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 6: Organizations now is sort of like the next phase. 266 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 3: I'm curious what you think about that and if you 267 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 3: looked at that as. 268 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: Part of the oppression tactics as well, or what you 269 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: found as you were looking. 270 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so in some countries that's really obvious. And 271 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 2: to be honest, the way that criminalization has happened in 272 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 2: Russia has been a lot about foreign NGOs, and now 273 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: one of our countries that we look at is Peru, 274 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 2: and in Peru you have a new law that particularly 275 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 2: targets NGOs that might in some way support activists in 276 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: the country. So that is definitely a really important part 277 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: of repression and has been more common in some countries 278 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: than in others, for sure. But it's scared so you 279 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 2: see that more Where have you seen it stuck the 280 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 2: case in the US? 281 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 3: Yes, And now the foreign influence law thing is becoming 282 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 3: a real in the US, both at the national level, 283 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 3: which is interesting because actually Farah was something that we've 284 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 3: used in the past as a reporting tool to understand 285 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 3: like which us PR firms and whatever else are doing 286 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 3: work for like Saudi Arabia for example. 287 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: That's been like the use of Farah in recent years. 288 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: This is the foreign agent station, and now the Trump 289 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: administration is using it to go after climate organization. 290 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're talking at there's now a few local level 291 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 3: foreign influence laws. 292 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 6: Being floated, which I have not seen in other countries. 293 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: So they're talking about state level foreign influence laws, which 294 00:18:58,160 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: would be really, really weird. 295 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 2: I suppose one thing that we really wanted to do 296 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 2: in the paper is to you know, address this kind 297 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 2: of separation between kind of global North of global South, 298 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 2: or kind of more democratic and or less democratic countries 299 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: and actually say, obviously, you do run much more risks 300 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 2: being an activist in the Philippines or Mexico or Brazil 301 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: than you do in the in the US, or in 302 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 2: the UK or in Sweden. But a lot of the 303 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 2: similar strategies are used to repress protest and activism across 304 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 2: this so it's not a kind of categorical difference in 305 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 2: most instances, it's a difference in degree and so on. 306 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 2: Take the thing about angios, right. I mean this is 307 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 2: justified in terms that would be justified in Russia, and 308 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: that we would be our governments would feel really free 309 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: to create de size Russia about being authoritarian about but 310 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: then they do very similar things at home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 311 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: And that's the kind of I suppose thing that we 312 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 2: really want to call out and observe. And I think 313 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: it's scary that those lines are being increasingly blurred. So 314 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 2: I'm Swedish, proven right, and Sweden and are two countries 315 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 2: with vastly different histories and civil liberties, equality, all sorts. 316 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: So when people ask, you know, is this going to 317 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 2: basically kill protests? Obviously it doesn't, right. I mean, people 318 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 2: protest under the most horrendous, repressive circumstances, you know, as 319 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 2: we are, well, it would be wrong to see that 320 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 2: we're seeing it. But I mean something is going on 321 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 2: in Iran as we speak, and it's certainly not the 322 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: case that Iranians don't protest because of how repressive the 323 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 2: Iranian regime is. Protest has continued to happen in Iran. 324 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: Obviously it becomes a lot more dangerous, but repression is 325 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: ne one hundreds percent successful in repressing protests so this 326 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 2: is a really interesting question that you know, people, you know, 327 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 2: how does this change protest? And I think that's something 328 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 2: that we want to explore further and understand more about, 329 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: because it doesn't kill off protests, it changes the conditions 330 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 2: under which we protest. 331 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is something that I think we saw a 332 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 3: lot in the reporting too, that it's like more violent 333 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 3: and maybe more obvious in some global South countries, but 334 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 3: not dissimilar in the person I would say. 335 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 7: And you know, now, at. 336 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: Least in the US, we're starting to see a huge 337 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: uptick in state violence as well. 338 00:21:58,480 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 7: So two things. 339 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 3: One completely accidentally because I was looking, I was pulling 340 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 3: all a video from various press conferences that Marco Rubio, 341 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 3: is the Secretary of State for the US, has been 342 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 3: doing since March, because there's quite a bit in what 343 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 3: he was saying that. 344 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 8: Has to do with what's happening in Venezuela right now. 345 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 3: So I was just sort of like, Okay, what's he 346 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 3: been saying over these months or whatever. I didn't know 347 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 3: this was happening before I watched all of those videos, 348 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 3: but it seems like the press corps that was traveling 349 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 3: with him like decided amongst themselves that one of them 350 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 3: at each press conference he did, would ask him about 351 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 3: the repression of campus protest and it's very it's pretty 352 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 3: amusing because he gets very irritated by it every time 353 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 3: they have, you know, unfortunately, many varieties of questions to ask, 354 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 3: but one of the things that has come up in 355 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 3: is a that he way that he. 356 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 6: Talks about protesters in general. 357 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 3: And definitely it seems like, you know, the way that 358 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 3: a lot of these countries have been talking about and 359 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 3: treating climate protesters was then just like copy pasted to 360 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 3: Gaza protesters as well. So one of the reporters in 361 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 3: I think it was in Surinam asked him, you know, 362 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 3: you had condemned China in twenty nineteen for repression of 363 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: student protests. Would you say that today you agree with 364 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 3: the Chinese government and its view of protest. 365 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 5: It's good and now it's done for ETWO from the. 366 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 9: New York Times, I thank you, mister Prinsident of mister 367 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 9: secretary for taking questions from US. Mister secretary, first to 368 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 9: you related to China. In twenty nineteen, you supported legislation 369 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 9: to have the US government support the protesters in Hong Kong. 370 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 9: The pro democracy protesters, and mostly the protests are peaceful, 371 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 9: but also occasionally the disrupted public life. And so, based 372 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 9: on your rationale for deporting campus protesters in the US, 373 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 9: would you now support the Chinese Commanist Party or hall 374 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 9: authorities deporting foreigners who took part in those protests in twenty. 375 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 10: Nine of person It is silly because so the people 376 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 10: that we're getting rid of in our country are vandalizing 377 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 10: call They're not protesters who are taking over college campuses. 378 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 10: They're harassing fellow students. 379 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 5: We let them in our country to study. 380 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 10: We gave them a visa because they said I want 381 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 10: to go to a university, I want to get a degree. 382 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 10: They didn't say I want to go to university and 383 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 10: I want to vandalize your library, and I want to 384 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 10: wear a mask over my face like off it's Halloween 385 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 10: and terrorized people. We didn't give them a visa to 386 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 10: do any of that. So we don't want those people 387 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 10: in our country. They're not they're not demonstrating for there. 388 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 10: They're going beyond demonstration. They are going and they're creating 389 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 10: a ruckus. They are creating riots basically on campus, and 390 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 10: it's making it's unfair for students. Some of these schools 391 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 10: are some of the most expensive schools we have in America. 392 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 10: People bay a lot of money to go to these schools. 393 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 10: They borrow money to go to these schools, and you 394 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 10: can't even go to class because some want a tech 395 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 10: who's covering their phase is running through campus, spray paying things, 396 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 10: harassing people, and they're in my country. 397 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 5: As a guest. 398 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 10: We want them out, every one of them. I find 399 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 10: We're going to kick them out. 400 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 3: That's an amazing question. 401 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 11: Yeah, I do wonder, like, how how close are some 402 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 11: of these supposedly democratic countries getting to countries that, you know, 403 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 11: the Global North has always pointed to you as examples 404 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 11: of like the most intense state oppression of speech. 405 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean it's. 406 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 2: Equally you know, golling to see UK government ministers coming 407 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 2: out and call out propression in other countries when there 408 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 2: are currently you know, three Palestine action hunger strike is 409 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 2: on the brink of dying, and that the government won't 410 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 2: even acknowledge that they are on hunger strike and not 411 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: even you know, open negotiations with them. I mean the 412 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 2: longest one has been now for over seventy days, which 413 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 2: is insane that she's still alive and. 414 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 5: That the government won't even you know, acknowledge it happening. 415 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: So yeah, absolutely, it's that kind of you know, double standards, 416 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: which obviously is a classic thing in politics, right, but 417 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: I think particularly in this sphere of oh, you know, 418 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 2: civil liberties, political liberties, I think it is it is 419 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: scary how quickly they have deteriorated in in many global 420 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 2: Norse countries. And I think that one of the sources 421 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: that we use, so we use various databases sort of 422 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 2: evidence based in the paper, and one of them mister 423 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 2: Civicus database, which is really really good. And you know, 424 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 2: Civicus do this grating of countries and the extent to 425 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 2: which they are free basically, and you know, it's a 426 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 2: grim picture. It's a grim picture around the world. Very 427 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 2: few countries are going up on Freedom Index, whatever it's called, 428 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 2: and you know, most countries are becoming a lot worse. 429 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: And you know, I'm not surprised that the UK are 430 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 2: doing you know, increasingly bad on it and the US, 431 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 2: but so are a lot of other countries. And interestingly, 432 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 2: even I mean Sweden is like green on the Civicus thing, 433 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 2: but I mean Sweden's had you know, they were threatening 434 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 2: one academic at the University of Land with deportation because 435 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 2: you know, he participated in non violent climate protests. So 436 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 2: you really are seeing seeing this everywhere. And yes, the 437 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,959 Speaker 2: way that it's so easy to support protests in other 438 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: countries and criticize repression, I mean, that's what's so going, 439 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 2: right that they actually, you know, they they they kind 440 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 2: of yeah, they they express all of protesters in other 441 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 2: countries whilst throwing nothing but scorn in their own countries. 442 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 2: And I think that vilification, which we're really talking about, then, 443 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 2: the realification of activists that politicians and the media do, 444 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 2: is really important to understand here and sort of in 445 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 2: the other research and I've looked at public opinion on 446 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 2: protesters and so on, and a lot of these protest 447 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 2: groups have been really unpopular in the countries. But I 448 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 2: mean that's not strange if you look at the media 449 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: reporting about right right. 450 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 6: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that too. 451 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 3: That is what's the latest kind of research showing in 452 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 3: terms of I guess you can't point to any one 453 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 3: thing as being the driver of public opinion on protesters, 454 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 3: but I guess, even just sort of qualitatively. 455 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: How much influence do you think that has. 456 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 6: I can't remember the last time I saw coverage of 457 00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 6: a protest that was either just like very neutral this happened, 458 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 6: or was remotely positive. And I wonder what you've seen 459 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 6: on that front, how much the way that people are 460 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 6: are seeing protests in the media impacts how they think 461 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 6: of it. 462 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've actually in a different team of mine. 463 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 2: We're about to come out with an article in the 464 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: next couple of weeks about just a boil and the 465 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 2: public opinion and media reporting about just up oil. And 466 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: there actually the media reporting in The Guardian, which is 467 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 2: left leaning according to some not very left leaning, but 468 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: nonetheless one of the big British newspapers that is fairly neutral. 469 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: The reporting about just apoil in the Garden was pretty neutral. 470 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 2: But outlets that reported the most on just a boil 471 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 2: were called right clickbait media and there obviously it's incredibly 472 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 2: negative and used always use these kind of derogatory terms 473 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 2: to write about them, but that wasn't the case in 474 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 2: the Guardian. And then relating to what you were saying, 475 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 2: I think, how big is the impact of these kind 476 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 2: of media discourses, and I'd say significant. 477 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 5: So we. 478 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 2: Studied the government discourses around justtop Oil in twenty twenty three. 479 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 2: And then we also carried on carried out interviews with 480 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 2: members of the public that just respond to a survey 481 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 2: that we did, and you find a lot of the 482 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 2: sort of discourses in the media and by politicians being 483 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 2: repeated by members of the public. So you know, issues 484 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: about energy security and things about we need new oil 485 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 2: and gas to be an energy independent from Russia and 486 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 2: so on. So things that are like just political discourses 487 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 2: that are not grounded in the truth of energy security 488 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 2: in the UK are very much repeated by people and 489 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,959 Speaker 2: they swayed like opinion about so like obviously just ap 490 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 2: Ooil were campaigning to stop ail in gas licenses in 491 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 2: the North Sea, and when that heated up anything else 492 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 2: in the summer of twenty twenty three, then public opinion 493 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 2: did swear like basically most people instinctively actually think that 494 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 2: let's not dig out more oil in gas. 495 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 5: That's probably if we let it be. 496 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 2: But because of those discourses, they managed to sway a 497 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 2: proportion of the public to be for new oil in 498 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 2: gas licenses. Now that then swung back later when the 499 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: issue kind of was removed from the headlines and so on. 500 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 2: Another way, of seeing this is when you look at 501 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 2: polls or surveys that have been done about criminalizing protests. 502 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 2: We found that in the abstract people don't want to 503 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 2: criminalize nonviolent protest, but when you ask questions specifically about 504 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: just stop oil, then they do. 505 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 5: Yeah. 506 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 7: And you think that that is because I see a 507 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 7: lot of even. 508 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 6: Kind of like quote unquote climate people will look at. 509 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 12: That stuff and say, oh see, just stop Oil's tactics 510 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 12: are bad. People don't like them, But do you figure 511 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 12: out what impact potentially, you know, whatever choices they're making 512 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 12: on campaigning have versus how the media and politicians are 513 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 12: positioning those tactics. 514 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 7: How much of people's opinion of just Stop Oil do 515 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 7: you think is shaped by how the media and politicians 516 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 7: frame their tactics, because I've seen some people will point 517 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 7: to that and go, oh see, like. 518 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: Their tactics are bad, people don't like them, as opposed 519 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: to having a more nuanced understanding of well, they've been 520 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: sort of uniquely vilified in the press and bipoliticians, and 521 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: that plays into it. 522 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 2: I think there are a lot of critiques of justop 523 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 2: oil and such groups from many angles. Some of them 524 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 2: I think have more merit than others. But this paper 525 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 2: that we have coming out soon looks specifically at claims 526 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: counterproductivity about just a boil and see if there's any 527 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 2: credibility to say that those protests are counterproductive. So just 528 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: a boil were not counterproductive in terms of people's opinions 529 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 2: about oil and gas licenses. It was not counterproductive in 530 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 2: terms of actually banning oil and gas licenses. I mean 531 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 2: that is still the policy of the current UK government, 532 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 2: the Labor government, and it was before, so you know, 533 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 2: just stop boil's unpopularity or whatever, it did not change that. 534 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 2: So in that sense they have not been counter productive. 535 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 2: Now I think another claim is that stop oil would 536 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: have been counterproductive and that they weakend the overall climate movement. 537 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 2: But even that there's a very vague evidence for that. 538 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 2: People often pointed this German survey which was done, you know, 539 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 2: to ask what you think of climate activists basically, and 540 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 2: when they think about just stop oil, they or about 541 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 2: lesser general asy on in that case, you know, that's 542 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 2: they think very negatively about climate activists, and maybe a 543 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 2: few years earlier when they thought about the school strikers, 544 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 2: they had more positive views of climate activists. But have 545 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 2: they fundamentally changed the way that climate activists or the 546 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 2: climate movement is viewed. Well, all, there's a fair amount 547 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 2: of scholarship on what's called, you know, the radical flank effect, 548 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 2: and a lot of that points towards the fact that 549 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 2: actually it doesn't really damage organizations that are more kind 550 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 2: of moderate in that sense. 551 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:06,919 Speaker 5: The fact that just the boil are. 552 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 2: Unpopular, it's you know, it turns people against that group, 553 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 2: but it doesn't really change people's opinions on the matter 554 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,760 Speaker 2: at hand or support for other groups. And then, of course, 555 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 2: you know this question, does the fact that just a 556 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 2: boil had a kind of tactic of wanting to get 557 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 2: arrested or kind of pushing the boundaries of the law 558 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 2: and so on, has that kind of increased the repression 559 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 2: against activists in general? And it's like, sure, you can 560 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: see that there, but I mean, you don't blame the 561 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 2: person people being repressed for that. And actually, through the 562 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 2: work that you have done and that I have done, 563 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 2: we've shown that this is a global phenomenon. The criminalization 564 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 2: and oppression of climate and environmental activism is global. It 565 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 2: would likely happen whatever just the boil we're doing. And 566 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 2: even though of course the way that it has happened 567 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 2: in Okay has been very much targeted against them and 568 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 2: what they are doing. So I think that you know, 569 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 2: claims that just Aboard and such groups counterproductive they might 570 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 2: are you know, unfounded. They may not have been the 571 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 2: most productive, they may not have achieved very much, and 572 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 2: they have certainly been very risky for the people involved, 573 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 2: the people that have done the protests, that have paid 574 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,280 Speaker 2: a very high price for it. So in that sense, 575 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,439 Speaker 2: you could, you know, question it in terms of being 576 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 2: being worth it. But what we have found is very 577 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 2: much that claims of it been counterproductive are wrong. 578 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 6: Thank you. You mentioned this paper that's coming out in 579 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 6: a couple of weeks. What else are you looking at 580 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 6: to kind of follow on from here? 581 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 5: So we want to. 582 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 2: Continue the research into criminalization and repression globally. So the 583 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 2: research that I want to carry out next is taking 584 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 2: this global angle, but also zoning in on four countries 585 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 2: and that's the UK, Australia, Philippines and Peru that are 586 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 2: all in different parts of the world obviously two of 587 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 2: them and the global North two of them, Global South, 588 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 2: two of them with significant risk to life of doing 589 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 2: climate environmental activism in the Philippines and Peru and two 590 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 2: countries have had very high levels of arrest and a 591 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 2: lot of new kind of anti protest laws in Australia 592 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 2: and the UK and looking at these and using this 593 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 2: kind of framework that we've developed in the article to 594 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 2: look deeper in these countries and carry out interviews with 595 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 2: people involved, so activists for sure, but also a lot 596 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 2: of the legal profession also involved with this, and other 597 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 2: and of civil society groups to see what are the 598 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 2: effects of criminalization and repression and how does it change 599 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 2: what people do and how do you resist it as well? 600 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 2: So what are the efforts to resist criminalization and repression on. 601 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,359 Speaker 2: So we have these partner organizations in these countries and 602 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 2: we want to be really yes, studying this in depth 603 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 2: to really see the effects. At the same time, we 604 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 2: also want to keep this kind of global aspect, so 605 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 2: we want to interview more kind of international stakeholders who 606 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 2: have this kind of global overview and look at policies. 607 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 2: You know, I think it's one question that drives us 608 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 2: in which we don't have the answer to yet, is 609 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 2: you know what international global processes are kind of driving this, 610 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 2: how policy move how are these policies adapted in different countries, 611 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 2: you know, are they kind of transferred, copied and pasted. 612 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 2: Who are the actors that drive them? Obviously your research 613 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 2: has a lot to say on that. Beyond your investigative journalism. 614 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,439 Speaker 2: I don't think we have much to go by there. 615 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,720 Speaker 2: So I think those are the questions that would really 616 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 2: drive this kind of research going forward. 617 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, we're looking into that too, so if we find 618 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 3: anything interesting, I'll let you know. But I actually do 619 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 3: wonder how much some of the extractive companies themselves are 620 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 3: spreading these ideas around. We found some indication, for example, 621 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 3: that like a coal mining company was trying to encourage 622 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 3: folks in Australia to adopt a foreign influence law that 623 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 3: applied to organizations that were similar to FIKRA in India. 624 00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 8: Which was pretty interesting, And I was like, I wonder 625 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 8: how much that's happening with other companies because they are 626 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 8: very global entities anyway, So I'm curious about that too, 627 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 8: how it's traveling around and who's funding what. 628 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 6: I'm curious if, either in the research that fed into 629 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 6: this current. 630 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 3: Study or just your work in general, if you are 631 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 3: seeing any kind of a similar pattern or global kind 632 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 3: of approach and people figuring out creative ways around the repression. So, 633 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,839 Speaker 3: like I mentioned the health workers in the UK, the 634 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 3: ones I was talking about are these six medics that 635 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 3: broke windows at gp bukin to protest their funding of 636 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,760 Speaker 3: fossil fuel projects. And they are putting on a play 637 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 3: that is basically just the transcript if they're hearing, to 638 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,760 Speaker 3: kind of show how ridiculous this legal process has become. 639 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,280 Speaker 2: So we can come back to this question of what's 640 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 2: criminalized in law and what's criminalized in practice. Yeah, yeah, 641 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 2: and as activists we can increase the cost of criminalizing 642 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 2: us in practice. And that's ultimately what you know, these 643 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 2: so efforts to legitimize protesters and activism, which you do 644 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 2: from a journalistic perspective, which I do, from an academic perspective, 645 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 2: which this theater then does from a kind of artistic perspective, 646 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 2: are all. You know, we're a kind of ecosystem of 647 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,280 Speaker 2: trying to say that actually, protest and you know, climate 648 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 2: environmental protest is not just justified, but it's good. These 649 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,839 Speaker 2: actors are fundamentally good actors. They need to be legitimized, 650 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 2: they need to not be criminalized. The more spotlight is 651 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:04,359 Speaker 2: on that when these actors are criminalized, the costlier the repressionist. 652 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: Right. 653 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 2: So the people who repress you, the actors that repress you, 654 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 2: they also make a cosset to benefit analysis of should 655 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 2: we repress should we let it go? And for me 656 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 2: more than you know, drawing on my actual research, like now, 657 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,800 Speaker 2: for me, this is you know, deeply personal. My dad 658 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 2: was a Peruvian revolutionary slash activist for all his life, 659 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 2: and he if the Peruvian state and landowners would have 660 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,359 Speaker 2: had their way, they would have just shot him and 661 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 2: or and you know, after that given him death penalty, 662 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 2: or after that locked him up for all his life. 663 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 2: But they weren't able to dodge, right, because there was 664 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 2: too much spotlight on him. So when he was caught 665 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty three, he was lucky in that it 666 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,959 Speaker 2: was the security services and not the police who found 667 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 2: him first, and the security services had orders. 668 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 5: To capture him and not to kill him on the spot. 669 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 5: So that was you know, luck number one. And then 670 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 5: when he. 671 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 2: Was you know, put on trial, there was on her 672 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 2: whole kind of international campaign for his for his liberty, 673 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 2: so he wasn't sentenced to death. He was sentenced to 674 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,400 Speaker 2: twenty five years in jail, and then in came a 675 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 2: kind of progressive, proving government that didn't like him, but 676 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,839 Speaker 2: it was too uncomfortable to keep him in jail, so 677 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:32,320 Speaker 2: they released him, but deported him from from the country. 678 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 5: So like. 679 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 2: This is obviously under you know, deeply repressive realities of 680 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 2: Peru in the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties. So 681 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 2: and it matters, like the spotlight, the international spotlight matters. 682 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,759 Speaker 2: And that's why I'm really motivated to be doing work 683 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,759 Speaker 2: with like Philippines and Peru and by you know, organizations 684 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 2: that work with highlighting these things. Is like, you know, 685 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:07,359 Speaker 2: if the international spotlight is on, that's a level of protection, right, 686 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,879 Speaker 2: That's like it makes the repression more costly. So that 687 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 2: kind of makes it any Anything that we do in 688 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 2: order to highlight and call out that repression and call 689 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 2: it for what it is, offers some level of protection 690 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,240 Speaker 2: against repression, criminalization, or you know, in the worst instance, 691 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 2: death for people. So I think that's really important to 692 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 2: remember and for those on the front lines and for 693 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 2: those of you and me who who in different ways 694 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 2: right about this and research this is that that's worth it. 695 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,640 Speaker 3: That's great. Thank you, that's such an interesting I didn't 696 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 3: know about your personal background. 697 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 8: That's really interesting. 698 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 3: Well, it must be that much more interesting and scary 699 00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 3: to see this sort of like turn in Peru for you. 700 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:12,439 Speaker 13: Yeah, that's it for this time. 701 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: We'll be back soon with another episode. Don't forget to 702 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,359 Speaker 1: check out our website at drilled dot Media. Our theme 703 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 1: music is Bird in the Hand by Forenoon. Our artwork 704 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: is by Matthew Fleming. You can also check us out 705 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: on social media at drilled Media. You can sign up 706 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 1: for our newsletter on our website as well that comes 707 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: out once a week and gives in overview of an 708 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,360 Speaker 1: important story that's happening in the climate universe, plus suggestions 709 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 1: for the week's five must read climate stories. It's never 710 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 1: more than a ten minute read, and people tell us 711 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,080 Speaker 1: it helps them keep up to date on all things 712 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 1: climate