WEBVTT - When Systems Fail: Culpability on Trial (With Jodi Tovay, Dennis Cooper, and Jaime Albright) 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:04.920 Wisecrack is released weekly and brought to you absolutely free, 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:09.760 but if you want exclusive bonuses and early access, subscribe 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:14.480 to tenorfoot plus. Enjoy over thirty shows, including Wisecrack, and 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:19.320 over one thousand episodes completely ad free. For more information, 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:27.320 check out the show notes. Enjoy the episode, Hey Wisecrack. 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.560 I'm extremely excited to share a conversation that I had 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:35.400 at Denver Crime Con called When Systems Fail Culpability on Trial. 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:40.080 The conversation is myself, producer Jamie Albright, and host of 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.760 Culpable Dennis Cooper. We talk about what is a system 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.360 failure and how do we, as pretty flawed humans, hold 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:50.360 an unwieldy system to account. Honestly, it was one of 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.440 my favorite conversations that we had at Crime Con. Both 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:57.560 Jamie and Dennis are such prose and hearing their perspectives 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:01.000 on the criminal justice system was really I open. If 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.000 you're not thoroughly exhausted of me and Ed, we do 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:06.240 hope that you'll join us for an Instagram live Q 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:10.000 and A on Friday, November fourteenth at eight o'clock Eastern 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:13.319 Standard time. It's going to be super informal. You can 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:15.560 just pop on the live and ask your questions or 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.399 if you want, you can submit your questions in advance 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.200 to at Wisecrack podcast on IG and we'll read and 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:24.800 answer them in real time. There will likely be a 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:28.200 special guest appearance by Ed and my various dogs being 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.360 Edie and Mando. So there you go, a real reason 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:33.520 to join the live. Thank you so much, and we'll 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:34.240 talk to you then. 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.520 When systems fail culpability on trial. 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.959 Okay, before we get too deep, Cash tell you because 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.720 I to get to talk to you. Amazing last night 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.240 and I cannot wait to listen to wisecrack. 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.400 Seriously. I mean, I'm so moved. It was a good turnout. 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:59.040 It was a yeah, really was Oh I'm so glad. 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:02.680 Well we've had nothing but positive feedback here at the booth, 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.440 So congratulations. 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:06.600 Thank you so much. I appreciate that. 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:12.800 So our panel today is when systems fail Culpability on Trial, 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:17.080 and we're joined today by Dennis Cooper, host of Culpable, 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.000 writer producer host all of that let me make sure 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:24.639 I say that, and Jody Tovey, producer of Wisecrack, as 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:28.080 well as the individual who found this powerful story. So 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.560 both of you have new releases this month. How does 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.280 it feel after working so long and so hard to 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.040 share this story with the world. Will start with Jody. 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:44.840 It feels incredible, but it also feels I'm very tired. Well, 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:49.480 it's exhausting and very exciting, and you know, it took 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.160 almost almost nine years to get this out there for people. 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:54.920 The crime that we're talking about in wisecrack happened in 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.799 twenty fifteen, so it feels like even an even better 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.320 opper tunity to share with everybody just because we've been 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.600 sitting on the story for a second. So it's great 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:07.320 to share, yeah, danis. 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:07.560 Yeah for me. 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.000 You know, it's funny because people here asks like how 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.200 long do you spend on these cases? When you look 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.280 at them and always feel so extreme, saying like, you know, 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:20.239 on average, i'd say probably two years, maybe sometimes a 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:22.799 little less. Granted they're they're with you till the end. 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.440 You know, you follow them along, they'll be a part 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.080 of me forever. But I hear nine, you know years 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.560 or whatever, and I think like, wow, now that, I mean, 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:33.679 that's almost a lifetime. 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:35.680 That's crazy. 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.800 So sorry to pivot the question because I'm just curious 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.960 fan boying, Now, how long did you know of that story? 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:42.400 Is it nine? 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:44.360 Years or is that just when are you using that 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:46.280 as a reference of when the crime happened? 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.480 I met, Yes, nine years was when the crime happened. 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.960 I met ed the following year when he performed his 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:57.200 set at the Fringe Festival. Okay, and so, and you know, honestly, 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.440 it just took I knew it was the thing. I 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:01.320 knew it was a story that needed to be shared, 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:03.600 but because it was such an unusual story, a lot 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:05.400 of people said no. Yeah, so there was a lot 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.000 of nos before Tenderfoot came in and said yes, we're 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.680 interested and kind of saw how you can take those 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:15.360 two feelings of laughter and drama and sadness and how 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.440 closely those feelings live. So yeah, yeah, it was Yeah, 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:21.640 it was a lifetime. That's not it's not inaccurate. 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:22.800 That is wild. Yeah. 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.320 So well, I'm glad that that all worked out. Yeah 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.239 for me, Like I for season three, I'll just reference 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:32.760 that I've been following it for over two years now, 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:35.680 and it's you know, still unfolding, Like I have stuff 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:37.120 I need to do and catch up on when I 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.640 get out of here, So you know, that's just the 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:41.720 nature of things. And then you know, I look back 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.120 now I can reflect on season one that was I 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:48.279 started following I think in twenty eighteen, so so I've. 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.320 Almost reached my nine year status on that one. 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:51.800 You know, I'm still I just did a follow up 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:53.760 with the mother in that case just a month ago, so, 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.039 you know, like I said, it's these things are a long, 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:04.080 ongoing journey to try and find justice or resolution for 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:04.800 these victims. 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.560 But you know, we love doing it. 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.760 Yeah, And these are both tough cases in different ways. 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.919 And so when you share the story and you're wanting 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.680 to know kind of what the reaction from people will be, 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.000 what's that like for you as producers? 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:26.600 Well, you first, you've been through so many seasons. 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.760 To see the reaction from listeners. 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:34.040 Yeah, yeah, it's always special. I mean, you know, and 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:39.920 seeing reviews online or getting direct messages on social media, 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.760 those types of things can be so moving. And I'm 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.200 so thankful that this community is so passionate about this 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:49.640 stuff that they care enough to do those things and 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.080 care enough to tell you, hey, maybe do something different 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:53.480 next time. 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:55.800 Maybe you know, I didn't love this part or what ever. 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.880 And we need that criticism too, Like, I never want 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.320 to think that I'm got this figured out, you know, Uh, 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:06.080 in every case and every story is different. But but yeah, 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.000 I I love seeing that stuff. I'm not I'm not 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.919 an overly confident person, and so to be totally honest, 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.000 I love nothing more than to see that positive reaction 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:19.880 from from audience and and probably nothing beats being at 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.320 a place like this and actually getting to have one 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.720 on one interactions with people and and see them light 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:27.960 up and think like, oh. 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.320 My gosh, like you're you're the host of this show. 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:32.680 And you know, I'd be lying if I said that 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:34.200 didn't make me feel feel really good. 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.040 So I love to see that feedback. 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.040 And uh, to help segue over to you, Jody, I've 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:44.080 I've loved watching, you know, kind of vicariously at the 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.280 reactions to wise Crack so far, because it's just been 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.599 very resounding. And I've been in that position, you know, 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:51.680 seeing a show climb up charts and seeing all the 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.400 good feedback, and I'm just I'm just so happy for 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.160 for all of you all and your your team, because 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:57.839 I know how much work's probably gone under that. 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.880 I I probably have the least experience interacting here with 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.080 crime con people. I mean, I'm getting information literally live 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.080 right now from the booth like, we love the show 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.720 and it feels great. It feels good. I do think 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:15.720 that's what's interesting though about this genre in general, is 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:18.040 that they will give you notes, but they also will 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.240 absolutely give you your props and say that really moved me, 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:23.760 that was touching. And I can't say the same about 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.280 other styles of podcasting or other forms of media. So 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:29.600 I think that in crime con particularly to like put 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:33.080 faces to the comments, I think is something super special. 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.600 And I think that at least for our show, since 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:37.680 it has a live performance element to it, where there's 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.520 a stand up comedian, Ed talks about his experience. You know, 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:44.800 it's great to watch people in the audience reacting real time, 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.040 as we just said, probably off microphone, but it was. 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:51.720 It's really rewarding to see that real time feedback. It's nice, 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:54.880 and you know, and everybody everyone's so different too, you know. 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:59.200 It's I looked out last night when during our Q 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:01.920 and A and I all that, you know, people looked, 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.520 some people were confused, and I think they were trying 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.200 to process how they felt about it, because people were laughing, 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.000 people were crying. Ed's had people run up on stage 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:13.560 and give him a hug in the middle of the set, 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.920 people have these very emotional responses to Ed's story and 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:19.800 to Ed in general, just because he's a nice guy 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.640 and really cool. But yeah, it's very rewarding. It feels 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:23.720 really nice. 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.440 Can I see one more thing on that? Just in 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:28.160 case I don't have the chance to connect with him. 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.000 I talked to him briefly last night, just because I 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:33.040 just really wanted to give him, you know, his props 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.880 and tell him how moved I was by the performance 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.559 last night. But if you feel comfortable, can you speak 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.720 at all on what it's felt like maybe for for 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:47.640 Ed to see this reaction totally, He's. 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:52.040 Very hard on himself, so if people I think that 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.640 his currency is laughs, but his story is both laughs 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:59.040 and tears, and so to be I think that, you know, 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.280 he's also trying to process real time that feedback as well. 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:07.040 But I mean, I think that he's people love him 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.559 in America in general. I think that he's and he's 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.440 also such a lovely, kind person as well, and so 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.559 I think he's used to, like I'm he just used 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.800 to fans and reception that's really positive. So I think 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.960 being here and receiving that is great, And I you know, 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:23.360 I don't want to. I don't want to speak for 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:25.520 him too much, but I think that this show is 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:27.800 so different, and I don't want to speak as a 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:32.439 comedian because I'm most certainly not, but there's there's a 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:34.800 lot of feelings going on in the show as well, 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:36.319 and so you're not you know, when you're used to 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.640 people just like bent over sobbing for laughing, and you 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.240 don't see people doing that immediately. I think it can 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.320 be confusing too, but I think it's because they're confused. Yeah. 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:49.800 Yeah, it's an emotional rollercoaster. Yeah, someone said that this morning, 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:52.320 and I thought that's the perfect way describe it. And 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.840 I love that Ed was vulnerable at the end, and 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.640 I think that that's reason that Tenderfoot saw this as 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.600 so powerful. It's a different way to deliver a very 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:08.839 important story as well. And so both Wisecrack and Culpable 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.400 take a look at culpability in very different ways. With Culpable, 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:17.920 it's ongoing questions, often unanswered. With Wisecrack, there is resolution, 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.959 but still questions about culpability. So I want to talk 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.360 a little bit about that. What do you think when 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.800 with that question or statement, just. 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:33.559 The various forms of you knowlpability for culpable. Yeah, well 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.319 that was like the cool thing with with coming up 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:40.400 with you know that that title for the series was 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.200 you know I say sometimes like it can seem like 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:46.520 such a very direct word. A lot of people hear 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.120 that and they just assume like it's more of like 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.120 this finger pointing, like you know, who's to blame for this? 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.520 And absolutely like in terms of finding justice and resolution 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.760 a case, like someone has to be to blame. So 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.360 that is an element of it, but it was also 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:06.880 a way to you know, keep a somewhat broad series 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:09.120 that can touch on so many different things. 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:10.040 You know. 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.200 The first series was focused on, you know, was this 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.640 a suicide versus a murder and exploring both of those 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.880 and you know, to to give an example, a real 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:23.160 example there that was that challenged me was you know, 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.520 when when everything felt like it was leaning in the 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:33.840 direction of homicide, I got I received these these text messages. 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.040 That have been on earthed from from the victim that 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:37.000 you know. 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.520 I think the easiest way to label it would be, 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:45.560 you know, suicidal like texts, you know, threats of you know, 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.560 not being happy with life and you know, I, you know, 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.600 threatening to harm myself. And this was years removed from 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:54.600 when the crime happened, but it's still opened that door 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:58.160 to like, you know, I didn't realize that the victim 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:02.080 had this going on, and so that was tough. You know, 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.760 it's like, wow, well we need to include this, which 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.400 you know is hard because there's always that element with 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:10.920 the family too and you know, one to protect them. 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.480 But it was, it was it was relevant, and it 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:15.480 kind of you know, moved the needle in a different 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:17.560 direction and it needed to be part of the story. 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:21.679 So it's looked different with with every case, but with culpability, 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.480 I just wanted to have a way to look at 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.200 all the different elements of that from from the justice 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.400 system and how it may fail people to you know, 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:35.640 mental health issues and how that could lead to. 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:35.960 To some of these tragedies we come across. 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:38.840 I mean, on case review, we've explored you know, things 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:43.080 like as intricate as like Castle Lull and as far 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:46.880 as like you know, crimes that happen on your front doorsteps. 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.880 So you know, I want to be able to explore 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.199 every single avenue because I think at the end of 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.079 the day, there's so many things that can tie into 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:56.720 to that term. 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:58.559 There's I think that's a great way to say it, 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:01.600 which is there's obviously lead to the you know, for 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.560 all of our cases, there's it's an open and shut case, right, 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:05.920 you know that that's what they is, that what they 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:10.320 say on law and orders for a minute. But but 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:14.200 there's shades of culpability and there's systems in place that 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:18.200 don't do great service to some people. We don't set 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:22.120 people up for success in many ways, and I think 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.560 that that's something that really resonates with me about what 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:29.680 you're saying. Particularly for the murder that we talk about 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:34.240 Brett Rodgers in Wisecrack, there's a big question about what 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:38.000 his mental health state was. In his mental state when 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.080 he left the scene of the crime, was it a 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:42.440 crime of passion? Was even in his right mind at 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.000 that point if you ask the criminal justice system, the 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:48.280 answer is he absolutely was. He was unable to be 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:51.800 declared incapacitated in any way and was tried as an 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:57.000 average person. My instincts, having now researched the case, I 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:02.120 feel the opposite. But also in the same way. You know, 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.520 in the UK we have social they have socialized medicine, 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:07.880 which is a huge piece of this story that we unfortunately, 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.080 you know, give me some more episodes, dontled. I'd love 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:11.760 to go into it, and I'd love to me to 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:15.400 help me, truthfully, But like, I do think that that 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:19.280 is one of those things that made a very big 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:21.880 impact in our story that we need to continue to 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:29.240 explore how how certain certain organizations fail and when, and 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:33.640 also they're not inclined to help. There's numbers they have 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.200 to meet, you know, we have to get people in, 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.080 we have to get people out. If we give you 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.240 this diagnosis, then this is the chain reaction that we 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.200 will then have to pick up for the rest of 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.400 your natural life. So we're loathed to give you said diagnosis. 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.520 We're to load to give you access to X, Y 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:51.680 and Z, and so I think that's a big piece 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:55.240 of this story that I think we still want to explore. Truthfully. 0:14:57.480 --> 0:14:59.200 Yeah, I was just gonna just to add to that. 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.720 Like with the season three specifically, it's been interesting because 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:06.680 again when I did season one, I felt very surprised, 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:11.600 sort of blindsided to realize like, oh, there's a mental 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:16.480 health element to this, whereas with season three, I was 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:23.240 coming from experience then was kind of excited to look 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:28.920 at a case like Danny's where he was diagnosed bipolar, 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.200 he was prescribed lithium, and these things come into the 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.320 story as you listen to it, and very much informed 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:41.320 the popular narrative around the town of what probably happened 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.640 to him, that you know that he probably did this 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.200 to himself in some way. It was you know, he 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:51.040 either took his own life or he had this episode 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:52.320 or had some. 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:53.960 Sort of drug overdose interaction. 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.000 I mean, it was crazy to me, and it moved 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:58.640 me to want to like really find out what happened 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:02.000 to him, because you know, it just felt like they 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:04.000 had made this bucket there, like it had to be 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:04.920 some one of. 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:05.960 These things that happened to him. 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:08.280 He was very imperfect, and his family'd be the first 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.000 to tell you that, and I think that very much 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.200 informed the narrative there. But interestingly enough, looking at from 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:19.080 the the you know, the authorities perspective is to get 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.920 that contrast again, like with Christian Andreacchio's case, it was 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:26.520 forty five minutes open, closed suicide, and I was like. 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:28.840 It doesn't seem right. You know, I don't come from 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:29.480 that experience. 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:31.600 You know, maybe that's maybe that's a normal time to 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:32.520 spend an investigation. 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.000 I don't think it seems like enough, so that bothered me. 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.960 But with Danny's case, I mean, they investigated it despite 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:42.360 despite feeling like, you know, it was probably some freak 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:44.480 accidental death or even a suicide. 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:46.920 They did work that case like it was a homicide. 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:48.960 And that was an interesting element to dive into because 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.480 I didn't expect that when we got the case files. 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.640 I I genuinely expected to not see a whole lot 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.240 of investigation, not see a lot of hard questions being asked, 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:00.800 those types of things, And I was humbled when I 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.280 saw otherwise and realized, like, Okay, they. 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.280 Took this seriously despite the common narrative there. 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.680 Yeah, I remember when you were able to get access 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.600 to the interviews and to the docs. I felt surprised 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.240 by that because it seemed the case of been forgotten. 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.160 And I think that's when you realize. 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:22.440 That there's multiple things happening at the same time. So 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:25.960 how do you balance the narrative and storytelling when you're 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.080 looking at so many different pieces that might have played 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:30.760 into what occurred. 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.080 Well, it's always a challenge. I mean for me, I 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:37.480 just lean into it as much as possible. You know, 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:42.760 I've always I've always been attracted cases that just they 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.320 challenge you, They challenge your view of things, They make 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.560 you think of all these different possibilities, and so for me, 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:51.760 I definitely don't shy away from it. If anything, I 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.199 jump at those cases usually. I think that's why I 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.359 was probably so moved by listening to the performance of 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.040 Wisecrack last night, is because I mean, that's just so 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.359 up my alley, because I got enough of a taste 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.600 of it to realize, like, oh, this is one that 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:08.159 will probably challenge me to the end of how I 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.560 feel about how I feel about the victims, how I 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.800 feel about the the the perpetrator in that, and these 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:16.920 different things, Like you could tell that there's a lot 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.280 more to that story that's going to come out in 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.120 the podcast that I'm stoked to to to listen through. 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:26.000 I just I've always enjoyed those types of things. I 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:26.640 don't want to. 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:30.800 I don't want to lead anyone to a conclusion, even 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:32.800 though the ultimate goal is to to find the truth 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:36.080 and get resolution. I don't want to tell a story 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.920 in a way that's that's pointed or leaned in one 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.399 direction that you know everyone's going to come to the 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.000 same conclusion at the end. I would rather you know, 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.760 give people what they need to to understand the case 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:49.520 and the ins and outs of it, and let them 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:51.680 come to their own conclusion as far as what they 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:52.400 think happened to. 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:55.200 The victim, who's culpable, uh. 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.960 And and and those various you know, layers of culpability 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.560 like that could that could have played into it, you know, 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.040 how they feel about the characters and at the victims, 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.600 those types of things. You know, I want to keep 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:07.560 people on their toes and kind of let them come 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:09.720 to their own conclusions. 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:10.480 Through to the end. 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.119 I feel the exact same way. I think the hardest 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.960 part of telling these stories. We know what the facts 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.800 are if we've done our job. We present obviously what 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.879 law enforcement knows and what they're willing to share, and 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:27.160 then you collect the interviews of the personal anecdotes from 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:31.800 the potential victims, eyewitnesses, whatever. But outside of that, I 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:33.920 think the trick is just making sure that you show 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:39.240 all those various shades of interaction within the facts of 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:43.320 the story. It's really hard, you know, it's really hard 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.840 because again I don't want to you know, I worked 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.480 on this one for a second, and I was the 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:50.720 same way with the roller coaster. What is going on. 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:54.000 I mean, truly, we have a meager six episodes, but 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.480 the arc really is do I trust this person? Do 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.399 I not trust this person? And then obviously the bigger question, 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.320 which is why I did the bully come to Ed's 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:04.960 house that night? What was on his mind? You know, 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:09.320 in some way we're not asking what or who because 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:13.359 we know what and who. It's why and how, and 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.040 those questions are much more gray than they are black 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.440 and white for the what and who, and so it's hard. 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:23.360 But I also, yeah, it's challenging. 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.280 I like beings. You know, people want to hear. 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.640 I think people want to hear those stories. We are 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.600 so far deep into the true crime genre and television, 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:37.320 film and podcasting and storytelling books. We've got narrative nonfiction 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.600 and all kinds of things. And the end of the day, 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.640 you know, I think that these super fans that we're 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.600 with right now, they're interested in those gray areas as 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:48.919 much as they're interested in the black and white, and 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.600 so it's it's nice that I think they the fans, 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.119