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Speaker 1: Wisecrack is released weekly and brought to you absolutely free,

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Speaker 1: but if you want exclusive bonuses and early access, subscribe

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Speaker 1: to tenorfoot plus. Enjoy over thirty shows, including Wisecrack, and

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Speaker 1: over one thousand episodes completely ad free. For more information,

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Speaker 1: check out the show notes. Enjoy the episode, Hey Wisecrack.

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Speaker 1: I'm extremely excited to share a conversation that I had

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Speaker 1: at Denver Crime Con called When Systems Fail Culpability on Trial.

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Speaker 1: The conversation is myself, producer Jamie Albright, and host of

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Speaker 1: Culpable Dennis Cooper. We talk about what is a system

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Speaker 1: failure and how do we, as pretty flawed humans, hold

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Speaker 1: an unwieldy system to account. Honestly, it was one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite conversations that we had at Crime Con. Both

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Speaker 1: Jamie and Dennis are such prose and hearing their perspectives

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Speaker 1: on the criminal justice system was really I open. If

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Speaker 1: you're not thoroughly exhausted of me and Ed, we do

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Speaker 1: hope that you'll join us for an Instagram live Q

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Speaker 1: and A on Friday, November fourteenth at eight o'clock Eastern

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Speaker 1: Standard time. It's going to be super informal. You can

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Speaker 1: just pop on the live and ask your questions or

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Speaker 1: if you want, you can submit your questions in advance

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Speaker 1: to at Wisecrack podcast on IG and we'll read and

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Speaker 1: answer them in real time. There will likely be a

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Speaker 1: special guest appearance by Ed and my various dogs being

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Speaker 1: Edie and Mando. So there you go, a real reason

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Speaker 1: to join the live. Thank you so much, and we'll

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Speaker 1: talk to you then.

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Speaker 2: When systems fail culpability on trial.

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Speaker 3: Okay, before we get too deep, Cash tell you because

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Speaker 3: I to get to talk to you. Amazing last night

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Speaker 3: and I cannot wait to listen to wisecrack.

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Speaker 4: Seriously. I mean, I'm so moved. It was a good turnout.

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Speaker 1: It was a yeah, really was Oh I'm so glad.

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Speaker 2: Well we've had nothing but positive feedback here at the booth,

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Speaker 2: So congratulations.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

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Speaker 2: So our panel today is when systems fail Culpability on Trial,

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Speaker 2: and we're joined today by Dennis Cooper, host of Culpable,

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Speaker 2: writer producer host all of that let me make sure

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Speaker 2: I say that, and Jody Tovey, producer of Wisecrack, as

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Speaker 2: well as the individual who found this powerful story. So

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Speaker 2: both of you have new releases this month. How does

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Speaker 2: it feel after working so long and so hard to

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Speaker 2: share this story with the world. Will start with Jody.

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Speaker 1: It feels incredible, but it also feels I'm very tired. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's exhausting and very exciting, and you know, it took

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Speaker 1: almost almost nine years to get this out there for people.

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Speaker 1: The crime that we're talking about in wisecrack happened in

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, so it feels like even an even better

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Speaker 1: opper tunity to share with everybody just because we've been

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Speaker 1: sitting on the story for a second. So it's great

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Speaker 1: to share, yeah, danis.

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Speaker 4: Yeah for me.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's funny because people here asks like how

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Speaker 3: long do you spend on these cases? When you look

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Speaker 3: at them and always feel so extreme, saying like, you know,

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Speaker 3: on average, i'd say probably two years, maybe sometimes a

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Speaker 3: little less. Granted they're they're with you till the end.

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Speaker 3: You know, you follow them along, they'll be a part

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Speaker 3: of me forever. But I hear nine, you know years

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Speaker 3: or whatever, and I think like, wow, now that, I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's almost a lifetime.

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Speaker 4: That's crazy.

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Speaker 3: So sorry to pivot the question because I'm just curious

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Speaker 3: fan boying, Now, how long did you know of that story?

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Speaker 4: Is it nine?

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Speaker 3: Years or is that just when are you using that

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Speaker 3: as a reference of when the crime happened?

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Speaker 1: I met, Yes, nine years was when the crime happened.

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Speaker 1: I met ed the following year when he performed his

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Speaker 1: set at the Fringe Festival. Okay, and so, and you know, honestly,

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Speaker 1: it just took I knew it was the thing. I

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Speaker 1: knew it was a story that needed to be shared,

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Speaker 1: but because it was such an unusual story, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people said no. Yeah, so there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of nos before Tenderfoot came in and said yes, we're

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Speaker 1: interested and kind of saw how you can take those

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Speaker 1: two feelings of laughter and drama and sadness and how

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Speaker 1: closely those feelings live. So yeah, yeah, it was Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a lifetime. That's not it's not inaccurate.

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Speaker 4: That is wild. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So well, I'm glad that that all worked out. Yeah

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Speaker 3: for me, Like I for season three, I'll just reference

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Speaker 3: that I've been following it for over two years now,

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Speaker 3: and it's you know, still unfolding, Like I have stuff

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Speaker 3: I need to do and catch up on when I

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Speaker 3: get out of here, So you know, that's just the

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Speaker 3: nature of things. And then you know, I look back

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Speaker 3: now I can reflect on season one that was I

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Speaker 3: started following I think in twenty eighteen, so so I've.

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Speaker 4: Almost reached my nine year status on that one.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm still I just did a follow up

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Speaker 3: with the mother in that case just a month ago, so,

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Speaker 3: you know, like I said, it's these things are a long,

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Speaker 3: ongoing journey to try and find justice or resolution for

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Speaker 3: these victims.

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Speaker 4: But you know, we love doing it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And these are both tough cases in different ways.

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Speaker 2: And so when you share the story and you're wanting

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Speaker 2: to know kind of what the reaction from people will be,

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Speaker 2: what's that like for you as producers?

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Speaker 1: Well, you first, you've been through so many seasons.

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Speaker 4: To see the reaction from listeners.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's always special. I mean, you know, and

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Speaker 3: seeing reviews online or getting direct messages on social media,

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Speaker 3: those types of things can be so moving. And I'm

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Speaker 3: so thankful that this community is so passionate about this

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Speaker 3: stuff that they care enough to do those things and

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Speaker 3: care enough to tell you, hey, maybe do something different

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Speaker 3: next time.

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Speaker 4: Maybe you know, I didn't love this part or what ever.

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Speaker 3: And we need that criticism too, Like, I never want

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Speaker 3: to think that I'm got this figured out, you know, Uh,

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Speaker 3: in every case and every story is different. But but yeah,

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Speaker 3: I I love seeing that stuff. I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 3: an overly confident person, and so to be totally honest,

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Speaker 3: I love nothing more than to see that positive reaction

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Speaker 3: from from audience and and probably nothing beats being at

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Speaker 3: a place like this and actually getting to have one

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Speaker 3: on one interactions with people and and see them light

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Speaker 3: up and think like, oh.

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Speaker 4: My gosh, like you're you're the host of this show.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I'd be lying if I said that

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Speaker 3: didn't make me feel feel really good.

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Speaker 4: So I love to see that feedback.

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Speaker 3: And uh, to help segue over to you, Jody, I've

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Speaker 3: I've loved watching, you know, kind of vicariously at the

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Speaker 3: reactions to wise Crack so far, because it's just been

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Speaker 3: very resounding. And I've been in that position, you know,

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Speaker 3: seeing a show climb up charts and seeing all the

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Speaker 3: good feedback, and I'm just I'm just so happy for

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Speaker 3: for all of you all and your your team, because

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Speaker 3: I know how much work's probably gone under that.

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Speaker 1: I I probably have the least experience interacting here with

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Speaker 1: crime con people. I mean, I'm getting information literally live

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Speaker 1: right now from the booth like, we love the show

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Speaker 1: and it feels great. It feels good. I do think

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Speaker 1: that's what's interesting though about this genre in general, is

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Speaker 1: that they will give you notes, but they also will

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Speaker 1: absolutely give you your props and say that really moved me,

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Speaker 1: that was touching. And I can't say the same about

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Speaker 1: other styles of podcasting or other forms of media. So

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Speaker 1: I think that in crime con particularly to like put

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Speaker 1: faces to the comments, I think is something super special.

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Speaker 1: And I think that at least for our show, since

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Speaker 1: it has a live performance element to it, where there's

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Speaker 1: a stand up comedian, Ed talks about his experience. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's great to watch people in the audience reacting real time,

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Speaker 1: as we just said, probably off microphone, but it was.

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Speaker 1: It's really rewarding to see that real time feedback. It's nice,

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Speaker 1: and you know, and everybody everyone's so different too, you know.

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Speaker 1: It's I looked out last night when during our Q

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Speaker 1: and A and I all that, you know, people looked,

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Speaker 1: some people were confused, and I think they were trying

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Speaker 1: to process how they felt about it, because people were laughing,

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Speaker 1: people were crying. Ed's had people run up on stage

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Speaker 1: and give him a hug in the middle of the set,

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Speaker 1: people have these very emotional responses to Ed's story and

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Speaker 1: to Ed in general, just because he's a nice guy

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Speaker 1: and really cool. But yeah, it's very rewarding. It feels

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Speaker 1: really nice.

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Speaker 3: Can I see one more thing on that? Just in

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Speaker 3: case I don't have the chance to connect with him.

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Speaker 3: I talked to him briefly last night, just because I

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Speaker 3: just really wanted to give him, you know, his props

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Speaker 3: and tell him how moved I was by the performance

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Speaker 3: last night. But if you feel comfortable, can you speak

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Speaker 3: at all on what it's felt like maybe for for

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Speaker 3: Ed to see this reaction totally, He's.

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Speaker 1: Very hard on himself, so if people I think that

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Speaker 1: his currency is laughs, but his story is both laughs

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Speaker 1: and tears, and so to be I think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: he's also trying to process real time that feedback as well.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, I think that he's people love him

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Speaker 1: in America in general. I think that he's and he's

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Speaker 1: also such a lovely, kind person as well, and so

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Speaker 1: I think he's used to, like I'm he just used

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Speaker 1: to fans and reception that's really positive. So I think

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Speaker 1: being here and receiving that is great, And I you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to. I don't want to speak for

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Speaker 1: him too much, but I think that this show is

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Speaker 1: so different, and I don't want to speak as a

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Speaker 1: comedian because I'm most certainly not, but there's there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of feelings going on in the show as well,

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Speaker 1: and so you're not you know, when you're used to

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Speaker 1: people just like bent over sobbing for laughing, and you

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Speaker 1: don't see people doing that immediately. I think it can

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Speaker 1: be confusing too, but I think it's because they're confused. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an emotional rollercoaster. Yeah, someone said that this morning,

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Speaker 2: and I thought that's the perfect way describe it. And

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Speaker 2: I love that Ed was vulnerable at the end, and

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Speaker 2: I think that that's reason that Tenderfoot saw this as

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Speaker 2: so powerful. It's a different way to deliver a very

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Speaker 2: important story as well. And so both Wisecrack and Culpable

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Speaker 2: take a look at culpability in very different ways. With Culpable,

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Speaker 2: it's ongoing questions, often unanswered. With Wisecrack, there is resolution,

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Speaker 2: but still questions about culpability. So I want to talk

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Speaker 2: a little bit about that. What do you think when

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Speaker 2: with that question or statement, just.

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Speaker 3: The various forms of you knowlpability for culpable. Yeah, well

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Speaker 3: that was like the cool thing with with coming up

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Speaker 3: with you know that that title for the series was

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Speaker 3: you know I say sometimes like it can seem like

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Speaker 3: such a very direct word. A lot of people hear

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Speaker 3: that and they just assume like it's more of like

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Speaker 3: this finger pointing, like you know, who's to blame for this?

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Speaker 3: And absolutely like in terms of finding justice and resolution

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Speaker 3: a case, like someone has to be to blame. So

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Speaker 3: that is an element of it, but it was also

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Speaker 3: a way to you know, keep a somewhat broad series

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Speaker 3: that can touch on so many different things.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 3: The first series was focused on, you know, was this

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Speaker 3: a suicide versus a murder and exploring both of those

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Speaker 3: and you know, to to give an example, a real

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Speaker 3: example there that was that challenged me was you know,

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Speaker 3: when when everything felt like it was leaning in the

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Speaker 3: direction of homicide, I got I received these these text messages.

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Speaker 4: That have been on earthed from from the victim that

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 3: I think the easiest way to label it would be,

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Speaker 3: you know, suicidal like texts, you know, threats of you know,

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Speaker 3: not being happy with life and you know, I, you know,

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Speaker 3: threatening to harm myself. And this was years removed from

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Speaker 3: when the crime happened, but it's still opened that door

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Speaker 3: to like, you know, I didn't realize that the victim

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Speaker 3: had this going on, and so that was tough. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's like, wow, well we need to include this, which

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Speaker 3: you know is hard because there's always that element with

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Speaker 3: the family too and you know, one to protect them.

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Speaker 3: But it was, it was it was relevant, and it

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Speaker 3: kind of you know, moved the needle in a different

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Speaker 3: direction and it needed to be part of the story.

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Speaker 3: So it's looked different with with every case, but with culpability,

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Speaker 3: I just wanted to have a way to look at

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Speaker 3: all the different elements of that from from the justice

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Speaker 3: system and how it may fail people to you know,

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Speaker 3: mental health issues and how that could lead to.

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Speaker 4: To some of these tragedies we come across.

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Speaker 3: I mean, on case review, we've explored you know, things

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Speaker 3: like as intricate as like Castle Lull and as far

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Speaker 3: as like you know, crimes that happen on your front doorsteps.

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Speaker 3: So you know, I want to be able to explore

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Speaker 3: every single avenue because I think at the end of

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Speaker 3: the day, there's so many things that can tie into

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Speaker 3: to that term.

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Speaker 1: There's I think that's a great way to say it,

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Speaker 1: which is there's obviously lead to the you know, for

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Speaker 1: all of our cases, there's it's an open and shut case, right,

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Speaker 1: you know that that's what they is, that what they

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Speaker 1: say on law and orders for a minute. But but

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Speaker 1: there's shades of culpability and there's systems in place that

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Speaker 1: don't do great service to some people. We don't set

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Speaker 1: people up for success in many ways, and I think

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Speaker 1: that that's something that really resonates with me about what

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Speaker 1: you're saying. Particularly for the murder that we talk about

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Speaker 1: Brett Rodgers in Wisecrack, there's a big question about what

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Speaker 1: his mental health state was. In his mental state when

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Speaker 1: he left the scene of the crime, was it a

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Speaker 1: crime of passion? Was even in his right mind at

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Speaker 1: that point if you ask the criminal justice system, the

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Speaker 1: answer is he absolutely was. He was unable to be

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Speaker 1: declared incapacitated in any way and was tried as an

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Speaker 1: average person. My instincts, having now researched the case, I

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Speaker 1: feel the opposite. But also in the same way. You know,

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Speaker 1: in the UK we have social they have socialized medicine,

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Speaker 1: which is a huge piece of this story that we unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: you know, give me some more episodes, dontled. I'd love

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Speaker 1: to go into it, and I'd love to me to

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Speaker 1: help me, truthfully, But like, I do think that that

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Speaker 1: is one of those things that made a very big

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Speaker 1: impact in our story that we need to continue to

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Speaker 1: explore how how certain certain organizations fail and when, and

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Speaker 1: also they're not inclined to help. There's numbers they have

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Speaker 1: to meet, you know, we have to get people in,

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Speaker 1: we have to get people out. If we give you

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Speaker 1: this diagnosis, then this is the chain reaction that we

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Speaker 1: will then have to pick up for the rest of

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Speaker 1: your natural life. So we're loathed to give you said diagnosis.

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Speaker 1: We're to load to give you access to X, Y

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Speaker 1: and Z, and so I think that's a big piece

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Speaker 1: of this story that I think we still want to explore. Truthfully.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was just gonna just to add to that.

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Speaker 3: Like with the season three specifically, it's been interesting because

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Speaker 3: again when I did season one, I felt very surprised,

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Speaker 3: sort of blindsided to realize like, oh, there's a mental

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Speaker 3: health element to this, whereas with season three, I was

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Speaker 3: coming from experience then was kind of excited to look

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Speaker 3: at a case like Danny's where he was diagnosed bipolar,

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Speaker 3: he was prescribed lithium, and these things come into the

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Speaker 3: story as you listen to it, and very much informed

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Speaker 3: the popular narrative around the town of what probably happened

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Speaker 3: to him, that you know that he probably did this

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Speaker 3: to himself in some way. It was you know, he

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Speaker 3: either took his own life or he had this episode

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Speaker 3: or had some.

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Speaker 4: Sort of drug overdose interaction.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it was crazy to me, and it moved

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Speaker 3: me to want to like really find out what happened

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Speaker 3: to him, because you know, it just felt like they

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Speaker 3: had made this bucket there, like it had to be

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Speaker 3: some one of.

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Speaker 4: These things that happened to him.

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Speaker 3: He was very imperfect, and his family'd be the first

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Speaker 3: to tell you that, and I think that very much

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Speaker 3: informed the narrative there. But interestingly enough, looking at from

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Speaker 3: the the you know, the authorities perspective is to get

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Speaker 3: that contrast again, like with Christian Andreacchio's case, it was

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Speaker 3: forty five minutes open, closed suicide, and I was like.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't seem right. You know, I don't come from

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Speaker 4: that experience.

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Speaker 3: You know, maybe that's maybe that's a normal time to

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Speaker 3: spend an investigation.

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Speaker 4: I don't think it seems like enough, so that bothered me.

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Speaker 3: But with Danny's case, I mean, they investigated it despite

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Speaker 3: despite feeling like, you know, it was probably some freak

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Speaker 3: accidental death or even a suicide.

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Speaker 4: They did work that case like it was a homicide.

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Speaker 3: And that was an interesting element to dive into because

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Speaker 3: I didn't expect that when we got the case files.

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Speaker 3: I I genuinely expected to not see a whole lot

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Speaker 3: of investigation, not see a lot of hard questions being asked,

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Speaker 3: those types of things, And I was humbled when I

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Speaker 3: saw otherwise and realized, like, Okay, they.

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Speaker 4: Took this seriously despite the common narrative there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember when you were able to get access

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Speaker 2: to the interviews and to the docs. I felt surprised

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Speaker 2: by that because it seemed the case of been forgotten.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's when you realize.

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Speaker 2: That there's multiple things happening at the same time. So

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Speaker 2: how do you balance the narrative and storytelling when you're

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Speaker 2: looking at so many different pieces that might have played

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Speaker 2: into what occurred.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's always a challenge. I mean for me, I

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Speaker 3: just lean into it as much as possible. You know,

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Speaker 3: I've always I've always been attracted cases that just they

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Speaker 3: challenge you, They challenge your view of things, They make

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Speaker 3: you think of all these different possibilities, and so for me,

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Speaker 3: I definitely don't shy away from it. If anything, I

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Speaker 3: jump at those cases usually. I think that's why I

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Speaker 3: was probably so moved by listening to the performance of

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Speaker 3: Wisecrack last night, is because I mean, that's just so

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Speaker 3: up my alley, because I got enough of a taste

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Speaker 3: of it to realize, like, oh, this is one that

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Speaker 3: will probably challenge me to the end of how I

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Speaker 3: feel about how I feel about the victims, how I

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Speaker 3: feel about the the the perpetrator in that, and these

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Speaker 3: different things, Like you could tell that there's a lot

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Speaker 3: more to that story that's going to come out in

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Speaker 3: the podcast that I'm stoked to to to listen through.

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Speaker 4: I just I've always enjoyed those types of things. I

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Speaker 4: don't want to.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to lead anyone to a conclusion, even

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Speaker 3: though the ultimate goal is to to find the truth

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Speaker 3: and get resolution. I don't want to tell a story

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Speaker 3: in a way that's that's pointed or leaned in one

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Speaker 3: direction that you know everyone's going to come to the

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Speaker 3: same conclusion at the end. I would rather you know,

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Speaker 3: give people what they need to to understand the case

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Speaker 3: and the ins and outs of it, and let them

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Speaker 3: come to their own conclusion as far as what they

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Speaker 3: think happened to.

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Speaker 4: The victim, who's culpable, uh.

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Speaker 3: And and and those various you know, layers of culpability

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Speaker 3: like that could that could have played into it, you know,

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Speaker 3: how they feel about the characters and at the victims,

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Speaker 3: those types of things. You know, I want to keep

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Speaker 3: people on their toes and kind of let them come

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Speaker 3: to their own conclusions.

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Speaker 4: Through to the end.

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Speaker 1: I feel the exact same way. I think the hardest

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Speaker 1: part of telling these stories. We know what the facts

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Speaker 1: are if we've done our job. We present obviously what

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Speaker 1: law enforcement knows and what they're willing to share, and

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Speaker 1: then you collect the interviews of the personal anecdotes from

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Speaker 1: the potential victims, eyewitnesses, whatever. But outside of that, I

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Speaker 1: think the trick is just making sure that you show

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Speaker 1: all those various shades of interaction within the facts of

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Speaker 1: the story. It's really hard, you know, it's really hard

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Speaker 1: because again I don't want to you know, I worked

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Speaker 1: on this one for a second, and I was the

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Speaker 1: same way with the roller coaster. What is going on.

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Speaker 1: I mean, truly, we have a meager six episodes, but

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Speaker 1: the arc really is do I trust this person? Do

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Speaker 1: I not trust this person? And then obviously the bigger question,

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Speaker 1: which is why I did the bully come to Ed's

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Speaker 1: house that night? What was on his mind? You know,

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Speaker 1: in some way we're not asking what or who because

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Speaker 1: we know what and who. It's why and how, and

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Speaker 1: those questions are much more gray than they are black

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Speaker 1: and white for the what and who, and so it's hard.

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Speaker 1: But I also, yeah, it's challenging.

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Speaker 4: I like beings. You know, people want to hear.

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Speaker 1: I think people want to hear those stories. We are

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Speaker 1: so far deep into the true crime genre and television,

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Speaker 1: film and podcasting and storytelling books. We've got narrative nonfiction

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Speaker 1: and all kinds of things. And the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think that these super fans that we're

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Speaker 1: with right now, they're interested in those gray areas as

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Speaker 1: much as they're interested in the black and white, and

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Speaker 1: so it's it's nice that I think they the fans,

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00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 1: have evolved with the genre and that it's something that

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Speaker 1: you and I actually like to do.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we prefer those kinds of things. That's a great

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00:20:58,640 --> 00:20:59,879
Speaker 4: way of putting it, for sure.

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Speaker 3: You know, for me, I always I never wanted to

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Speaker 3: tell it in a way that's like I've figured this out,

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Speaker 3: and here's my presentation on me figuring it out.

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Speaker 4: It was more supposed to be a feel.

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Speaker 3: Live and in the moment, and you're learning it as

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Speaker 3: I'm learning it, and come along for the ride with me.

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Speaker 3: Because there's a lot of very smart people, a lot

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00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 3: of very passionate people in this community who have helped

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Speaker 3: me tremendously, you know, sending in ideas, tips, those types

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Speaker 3: of things, and so you know, I always wanted to

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Speaker 3: make it feel like, you know, hey, armchair detectives like you,

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Speaker 3: come along for this with me. You know, you're in

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Speaker 3: this with me. It's not just me telling this this

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Speaker 3: journey that I was on, like, I want you to

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Speaker 3: feel a part of it too. So so yeah, I've

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00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 3: always tried to mimic that, you know, as I've done

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Speaker 3: each season as culpable.

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Speaker 5: I hope you're enjoying this episode live from Crime Con.

423
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 5: Want to get aha, I'd start on Crime Con twenty

424
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,840
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425
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427
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429
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 5: and we'll see you in Las Vegas next May. Now

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00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 5: back to the show.

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Speaker 2: So you touched on this a little bit earlier, but

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Speaker 2: in wise Crag Brett was found legally competent to stand trial. Yes,

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Speaker 2: did you think that would be the case when you

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Speaker 2: first learned about the case and did you ever change

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Speaker 2: your opinion at any point?

436
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: The first thing that I saw once ed told me

437
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: the name. So in the set when I first listened

438
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 1: to it in Edinburgh, he used a different name. So

439
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 1: I had to like hunt this person down and become

440
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 1: a stocker myself to find out exactly what this person's

441
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: name is. But that moment when you told me his

442
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: name is Brett Rodgers, you go to your Google machine

443
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: and the first thing you see is all the very

444
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 1: bloody details of the crime. It does not look like

445
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 1: a crime just on the very surface from the three

446
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: ten thousand foot view that it is somebody who's of

447
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: right in their right mind at that moment, and so

448
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: just being very frank, that's what that was my first

449
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 1: instinct when I looked at that. It was across three hours.

450
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 1: It was using like household kitchen knives that would break

451
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: and then he'd grab another one, and you know, lots

452
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: of defensive wounds. But ultimately the victims, his victims were

453
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: you know, very much under the influence. But it made

454
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 1: it a very bloody crime as a result because their

455
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: blood was so viscous. It was everywhere. So when you

456
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 1: read the details, you're just like, this doesn't feel like

457
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: a planned thing. That was a minimum the first instinct,

458
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: and that's kind of and that's how I started into

459
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: that process. I mean, just being honest, like you know,

460
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: I we try to stay unbiased as possible, but that

461
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 1: was my first thought. And then when you actually look

462
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: at the courtroom, to the trial itself, if you just

463
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 1: read the transcripts, didn't know any of the context, you

464
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: would one hundred percent believe that this person was also

465
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 1: of sound mind when they did this. But the more

466
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,159
Speaker 1: that you talk to his dad, the more that we

467
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: talk to everybody who knew him, there there was some

468
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 1: shades of illnesses that might have been undiagnosed. That's just

469
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 1: the reality. But how much does that play into it.

470
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, you know, and that's kind of

471
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: still the mystery.

472
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 3: That's the part I'm most excited to follow along with.

473
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 3: I think in that is the probably what will be

474
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 3: I'm assuming an evolving journey around around Brett and your

475
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 3: maybe your thoughts on him or why he did this,

476
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 3: you know, like you said, because it's interesting from my

477
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 3: perspective because more often than not, you know, when I

478
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 3: pick a case, you know, I start with the family,

479
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 3: and you know, for the most part, families are going

480
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 3: to paint the victim and as good of a light

481
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 3: as possible. You know, some are more forthcoming than others,

482
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 3: and some don't hold back. But for the most part,

483
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 3: you're gonna get, you know, a really good image of them.

484
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 3: And I'm sure it's got to be a totally different

485
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 3: animal coming from the different side like you all did

486
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 3: and seeing this, you know, if what you said is true,

487
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: as far as starting with the crime scene, it's probably

488
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 3: got to be a challenge to see this, like to

489
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: only be able to see this person is probably a

490
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 3: monster off part, just based off this crime scene and

491
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 3: what they did.

492
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 4: And then you know, to slowly peel.

493
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 3: Back the layers and we realize like, huh, you know,

494
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 3: there's there's a lot more to his story there that probably.

495
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess I have to imagine that'd be

496
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 3: a challenge, because I know it is on my end,

497
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 3: you know, always getting this this good picture of this victim.

498
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 3: The more you dig, you realize like they're human, just

499
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 3: like any of us. They've made mistakes along the way.

500
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 3: You know, who knows, maybe they even have a degree

501
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 3: of culpability. And so it's like from your angle is

502
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 3: like total opposite to that, And that's why I'm excited

503
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: to check that out. As far as the first image

504
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 3: you got of him versus probably your thoughts and your

505
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 3: image of him now years removed.

506
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: You're our best promoter for this podcast. Thank you so much.

507
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: Appreciate it.

508
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, no profit.

509
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 2: One thing I will say is I think that's what

510
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 2: I love about working at tender Front. I mean, Dennis

511
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: was literally like, do I get to me ed after

512
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 2: the show? We're like, yes, we are, We're a team here.

513
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 2: But just the love and the support from one creator

514
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: to the other, and I think that just shows you

515
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 2: what a wonderful job you guys have done in crafting

516
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 2: this story. And you mentioned something I want to touch

517
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 2: on a bit. Has your personal definition of justice changed

518
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 2: while looking into cases, peeling back the layers and exploring culpability,

519
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 2: And that's.

520
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 4: Actually for both of you, I think it has to

521
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 4: an extent. I mean, at the end of the day,

522
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 4: it's hard to.

523
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 3: Not associate justice with resolution closure for victims in these

524
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 3: cold cases that I look that I look in to investigate.

525
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 4: I mean, you can't separate the two.

526
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 3: But what I have learned over time is again there's

527
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: a lot of depths to culpability. There's every case is different,

528
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 3: every victim is different, and you realize, like getting that

529
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 3: justice and resolution is a long shot. It's what we

530
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 3: strive for no matter what, and we'll continue to in

531
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 3: these cases until they are resolved.

532
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 4: But at the same time, so.

533
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 3: Many of these cases need attention, They need a new break,

534
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 3: a new lead, They need people like us to tell

535
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 3: those stories. And so for me, while it may not

536
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 3: be getting justice by definition, I've connected with enough families

537
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 3: now and worked enough cases to realize that for some

538
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 3: of them, it still feels like a degree of justice

539
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 3: just to be able to get that story out there,

540
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 3: to be able to get a new lead, some new information,

541
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 3: to be able to bring life back into this investigation

542
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 3: that set their cold for many years, and so so

543
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 3: I always can take you know, I think some bit

544
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 3: of rest in that and knowing that just like some

545
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 3: progress was made and that these things have been revealed,

546
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 3: like let's learn from them. You know, maybe you shouldn't

547
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 3: spend a little longer than forty five minutes on that investigation.

548
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 4: Maybe you should.

549
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 3: Have done a little more digging, you know, before ruling

550
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 3: it a suicide.

551
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 4: Those types of things.

552
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 3: Again, I could list them all day, because every case

553
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 3: is different, and the good things in them and the

554
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 3: mishaps in them look different with every case. But ultimately,

555
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: I just want there to be some takeaway at the end,

556
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 3: at the very least of like how can we learn

557
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 3: and grow from this as a society, as you know,

558
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 3: law enforcement agency, as the justice system, you name it.

559
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: I definitely agree with you every and yes, absolutely every different.

560
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: I just think that my sense of sense of justice

561
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: has not changed necessarily. Right is right and wrong is wrong.

562
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: There are consequences for actions, and we live in certain

563
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: governments and these are these are side consequences for actions.

564
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: But I think it's made me question how are we

565
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: helping people? Are we even helping people is healthy? Does

566
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: helping actually while might be under the guise of helping,

567
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: is it actually hurting? Which is really important because I

568
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: think that there's a lot of people who are part

569
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: of these checks and balances, but they're not part of

570
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: like the how often do we do post mortems on

571
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: autopsies and post mortems right? And how all these agencies

572
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: work together or against some of these people. What's really

573
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: what's interesting about this particular case that happened in England

574
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: for Wisecrack is that they had a separate document called

575
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: the domest to Comma Side Report, and that really, I

576
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: think once we were able to get access to that

577
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: just blew my mind. Which is an impartial, charitable agency

578
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: that does receive government funds to do evaluations on domestic

579
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: violence cases and family cases in particular, and they get

580
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: access to everyone and then they compile that report and

581
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: then they say, here's what we did wrong, here's what

582
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: we did right. Wow, it's interesting spoiler alert. They mostly

583
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: say they did things right, but if you read the report,

584
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: I think you might feel a little bit differently. And

585
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: it's you know, and it's not intended to be critical,

586
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: it's just intended to gather information and follow trends. And

587
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: I just think that that's one piece that we don't

588
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: have in America. And I know that there's lots of people,

589
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: lots of even government agencies that are responsible for that,

590
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: but not in a open published way. You google Brett

591
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: Rodgers Domestic Comma side Report, you will find it. You

592
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: will find one hundred families link. So if you are

593
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: just a concerned citizen who's interested, everyone has access to

594
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: this information, you know. And I don't feel the same way.

595
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: I think over here in America it's a lot harder.

596
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: It's a lot more mercurial. You need the dentists and

597
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: the jodies to bother people until they're like, fine, take

598
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: it right. And I agree with you.

599
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: Looking at that report or the analysis of him, it

600
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 2: almost allowed you. It allowed you to dive deeper into

601
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: who he was and what he may have been experiencing,

602
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 2: which made me again go, how was he found legally

603
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: competent stand trial?

604
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: He was being treated with medication that would have been

605
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:37,239
Speaker 1: treatments for schizophrenia, but never ever received the diagnosis, and

606
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: that even in prison after he had been convicted and

607
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: went to prison for thirty two years, he was also

608
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: still receiving that treatment. They moved him around a different jails,

609
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: but they put him in a prison that was specifically

610
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: designed to help people who very obviously have mental health issues.

611
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: So we all knew what was going on, but we

612
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: never actually said it. It was never written down, it

613
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: was never recorded. And I and listen, I know that

614
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: that's a big stigma as well for someone to accept

615
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: that I have fill in the blank issue. But at

616
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: the same time, I don't know. The more that I

617
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: think about these cases and the things that we're talking about,

618
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: I just think that isn't it just better to be

619
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: transparent and to record the metrics in the same way

620
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: that we know when people turn off our podcasts. Yeah,

621
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: don't you want to actually know where we stand as

622
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: a society? Yeah, and what's you know, who's helping, who's not,

623
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: who's intending to help but is harming. I just think

624
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: that's the data is really important.

625
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: Are there any risk of exploring culpability when storytelling?

626
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: The first thing that comes to my mind is lawsuits.

627
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 3: Dennis can compuse that.

628
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just obviously the highest risk. But even outside

629
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: of those kinds of things, Yeah, Yeah, you don't make

630
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: tons of friends doing what we do. Now, Yeah, someone's

631
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: always going to be mad in some way about how

632
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: their story was represented, regardless even again, like I got

633
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: a woman who sent me a message on Instagram the

634
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: other day who listened to the podcast, and she said,

635
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: I think that Ed and Pete, who was the father

636
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: of a murderer of Brett, are heroes and they're absolutely incredible.

637
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: I was not expecting that feedback, but it was because

638
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: and I think and I think the context that she

639
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: was implying was that because they sought help, the survivor

640
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: sought help and came out on the other side, and

641
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: so But but again, these are all just like I'm

642
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: just constantly surported by the responses in general. But yeah,

643
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: there's a lot of risks because I again, I thought

644
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: it would have gone the other way. I thought it

645
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: would have been finger pointing against X, Y and Z

646
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: and it wasn't. So yeah, I think, but you but yeah,

647
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: I think if you're trying to be like a darling

648
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: in a Sweetheart, this might not be the jump for Yeah.

649
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 3: No, I really couldn't put it any better than that.

650
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 3: I mean, just from the start. Yeah, probably probably the

651
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 3: biggest risk.

652
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 4: Is on the legal side.

653
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 3: You know, and that's we've we've learned that that can happen,

654
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 3: and we've come out on the other side of that

655
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: and in a good way, and you learn from it.

656
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 4: But even on a small.

657
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 3: Scale, Yeah, like, at the very least, you are going

658
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 3: to upset some people doing this, whether it's law enforcement,

659
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 3: whether it's you know, persons of interest in the case,

660
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 3: whether it's the victim's family. All those things are are possibilities.

661
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 3: I've done all of those, you know. I've I've upset

662
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: a mother really badly and then had to you know,

663
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: try to mend that relationship and thankfully was able to.

664
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 3: I've definitely upset persons of interest, definitely, you know, upset

665
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 3: law enforcement.

666
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 4: So those things are just kind of part of it,

667
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 4: you know.

668
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 3: I just try to be as as respectful and honest

669
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 3: as as possible. I'm you know, and just you just

670
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 3: hope for the best. But but that's just kind of

671
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 3: the nature of it, because these are very, very sensitive

672
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 3: and vulnerable topics and stories we're exploring, and and the

673
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 3: nature of putting the truth out there is like the

674
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 3: truth is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable.

675
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, that's that's what

676
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 4: we have to put out there is the truth.

677
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: So you just.

678
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 4: It is what it is.

679
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, you just kind of have to take a

680
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: journalist spirit and be tough question Mark.

681
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 4: Yeah.

682
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I do think some people forget that another

683
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 2: risk could be stigmatizing someone with mental health or stigmatizing

684
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 2: stigmatizing someone with substances. It's important to know that people

685
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 2: can be a offender regardless of the background, and they

686
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: could be an offender regardless.

687
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: If they have any of those isms.

688
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: Right, So, I think that you both do a wonderful

689
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: job of peeling back the layers without just saying this

690
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 2: is why it happened, and we should blame this person.

691
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 1: In the story.

692
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 4: So I applaud you both for that. Appreciate that, Thank you,

693
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 4: thank you.

694
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

695
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 2: So listeners often want conclusion beginning, middle end. Jody, you

696
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 2: have so much experience, and you know production and award

697
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: winning and your your big way out here. How do

698
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 2: you meet the audience where they are and ensure they're

699
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: getting a full story, even if it's not a clean ending,

700
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: which Dennis knows culpable often isn't.

701
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so, it really is so difficult. You want

702
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: to I want to offer whoever spending the time with

703
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: our storytelling as much of a conclusion that I can offer.

704
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: I mean, in theory, that's what they expect, right, Like,

705
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: there's some sort of expectation and promise from a listener

706
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: to a host or a narrator or whatever you want

707
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: to call it. But I think at the end of

708
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: the day, for at least I can what I can say,

709
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: at least for Wisecrack is that you know, I think

710
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: that Ed's character arc across the episodes, it is very

711
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: much as much of a roller coaster that he's on

712
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 1: about learning about himself and looking back at his childhood

713
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 1: and saying, oh, that wasn't at all what I thought

714
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: it was. If you are hopefully invested in him as

715
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: a person, I think you will find a satisfying conclusion.

716
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: But if you are I really just being very frank,

717
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: if you're somebody who is just in it for the

718
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: blood and the gore and wants to get in and

719
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: get out and find out guilty not guilty, this might

720
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: not be the one for you. There is some very

721
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: interesting shades that we explore and hope, and I guess

722
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: my biggest hope is that myself and Charles who wrote

723
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: the podcast. At least you're invested in Ed's transformation using

724
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: the information that we uncover, and that would be then

725
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: hopefully a satisfying conclusion.

726
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, back to your question from earlier about you know,

727
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 3: the definition of justice for us again, like the best

728
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 3: conclusion for us, for families, for audiences is always going

729
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 3: to be resolution to the case and the nature of

730
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 3: what I do. It's like, that's not in any way

731
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 3: a guarantee. It's just something that you're striving for. Uh,

732
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 3: And so you know, I always say like the last

733
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 3: episode has always been the hardest one to write because

734
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 3: you just that would be the only true ending that

735
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 3: would like I probably leave you and what you would feel,

736
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 3: like your audience, how they would feel about it's fully satisfied.

737
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 4: But that's at the end of the day, a long

738
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 4: shot that we're striving for.

739
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 3: Not every story is going to end like you know,

740
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 3: like the Terrigrin's case and up in Vanish that's not

741
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 3: It can happen, but it's not a guarantee.

742
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 4: It's just something that we strive for.

743
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 3: So that last episode is always so hard to write

744
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 3: because one you're trying to find the best way to

745
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 3: put a Bow on this very long, emotional roller coaster

746
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 3: investigation that you've been on. But you also realize, like

747
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 3: if you haven't reached that conclusion you're striving for, that

748
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: the story's not technically over with yet, So like you

749
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 3: also have this feeling of like is this even really

750
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 3: going to be the end of the series, Like do

751
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 3: we need to come back and do more, because you

752
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 3: know we're going to keep exploring this until we get

753
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 3: that resolution.

754
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 4: So like, I'm still working on I'm still looking.

755
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 3: Into cases that I've wrapped up, like season one Christian Dracus,

756
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 3: season two, Brittany Stikes.

757
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 4: I'm still following up those families.

758
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 3: I'm still looking into those when I wrap up season three,

759
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 3: I got a list of things I want to do

760
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 3: with those, So you know, I don't even know if

761
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 3: the end that I.

762
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 4: Told to those is actually the end of those stories yet.

763
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 3: So that's all always the hardest one to write, because

764
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 3: you know, you want to give audiences the best conclusion

765
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 3: possible and they're going to have their opinions on that,

766
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 3: but we just got to do the best we can.

767
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: It's hard because you don't go again, the point being

768
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: we're not We're normal people who just like look at

769
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: things and go, well, I kind of have an opinion

770
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: about that, but at the end, But at the end

771
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: of the day, I think if we come in with

772
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 1: the end of the story in mind, we never did

773
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: a real investigation. Absolutely, so it is a real risk

774
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: I think on our part because we spent so much

775
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: time and we're like, oh no, there's no end to

776
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: point whether how do you tell the story?

777
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 4: Is it?

778
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 5: You know?

779
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: And I you know, you go to someone and they're like, well,

780
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: there's no end, and I'm like, good point, excellent, excellent work.

781
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: We got to keep working. And so Wise Crack is out. Yes,

782
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: what can listeners expect from this season? Why should they

783
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: tune in? And what's next for you? Well, we've just

784
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: launched I guess I'm not sure when this is coming out,

785
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: but at the beginning of What led the Wey in September,

786
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: so we'll be running through October with new episodes. Very exciting,

787
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: I think the again, I think if you're I kind

788
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: of see this for fans like a true crime one

789
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 1: oh two. It's not a one oh one because it's

790
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: much more of a character exploration and again we're asking

791
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: the question why, if why is something that you find

792
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: yourself asking a lot. This is the story for you.

793
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: If you've ever been bellied before as a child and

794
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: then had that person come back in your life, this

795
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: is a story for you. I think that if you

796
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: like stand up comedy, obviously this is a story for you.

797
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: Ed's hilarious. But I also think that there's two families

798
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: involved in this story that live right next door to

799
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: each other, had very similar lives, and their children were

800
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: very similar and then went in complete opposite directions. So

801
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: I hope that you know, I think we can all

802
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: look back in our childhood and think of the family

803
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 1: that we were all friends with, and now you're like,

804
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: where are they, what are they doing? Or what happened

805
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: if something this thing dramatic had happened. So I think

806
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: that those if you're interested in any of those three things,

807
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 1: I think this would be something that people might enjoy.

808
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: And I hope that they'll listen what's next. I just

809
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: told you I'm taking a nap, and then an app

810
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: is so hard in the car. That's where I'm goness

811
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't you know this is a close

812
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: ended story. You mean, we know who the killer is,

813
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: and we did an exploration and obviously of all the

814
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 1: people involved in the case. But I have a feeling

815
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 1: based on all the reactions of what we've seen at

816
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: Crime Con, particularly as performance last night, I don't think

817
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: that this is the end, because it's amazing how everybody

818
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: wants to share their own personal stories of trauma. So

819
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: you know, season two, it's probably with amongst the listeners

820
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: is the reality for us, and so I'd certainly encourage

821
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 1: people to reach out and share their opinions and thoughts,

822
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: and also if you need an event, if you need

823
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: to talk about stuff, we're here for you too, well.

824
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 2: Culpable yes out.

825
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 4: What can they expect this season, Yeah, a little bit

826
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 4: of everything.

827
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: You know.

828
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 3: For one, I think you can if you enjoyed season

829
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 3: one of colpol Christiandiaki, I do think there's some parallels

830
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 3: to that.

831
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 4: I think there's some shades of that in this story.

832
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 4: So I think fans of that season will certainly enjoy

833
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 4: digging into this with me. It's kind of like a

834
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 4: meshing of.

835
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 3: Time frames as far as like you're going to hear

836
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 3: reporting from ninety eight and you're gonna hear reporting from

837
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 3: two thousand or twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five,

838
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 3: you're gonna hear recordings from nineteen ninety eight, and you're

839
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 3: gonna hear recordings from twenty four and twenty twenty five.

840
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 3: And so it's been a real challenge to work that

841
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 3: because you know, the cases I worked before, Christian and

842
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 3: Britney's were nowhere near as old as this. When I

843
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 3: started following Danny's case, it was a twenty five year

844
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,479
Speaker 3: old cold case. We're coming up on in October twenty seven,

845
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 3: it'll be twenty seven years. So it's been it's been

846
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 3: an interesting one, in a challenging one because you learn

847
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 3: that with time. You know, obviously the case changes hands

848
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 3: several times, people pass away, people move on people. One

849
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 3: thing I've really learned in this season, this will come

850
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 3: up throughout it is like how it challenging to think,

851
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 3: like how well can you trust people's memory that much longer,

852
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 3: especially when you can hear what they said in nineteen

853
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 3: ninety eight versus what they're saying now, And it'll really

854
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 3: kind of make you think.

855
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 4: And I think you'll be on your toes to the end.

856
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 3: I think you'll again, like I've always wanted to lean

857
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 3: into that, I don't I want it to feel like

858
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 3: there's a lot of possibilities there because genuinely there are,

859
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 3: and I think you're going to feel that with this

860
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 3: case as far as not knowing, you know, was was

861
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 3: he killed or or did someone murder him as as

862
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 3: a homicide or did some other accident happen? How did

863
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 3: he end up in that field? You know, did somebody

864
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 3: put him there or or is that where the crime happened.

865
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 3: And then as far or as who's responsible, I think

866
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 3: you're going to have all sorts of thoughts on who

867
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 3: may have played a role in this in some way

868
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 3: or who may have more information.

869
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 4: So I think you'll be on your toes at the end.

870
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 4: I know I have been.

871
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 3: It's actively releasing right now, and like I said, I'm

872
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 3: still digging into it and I'm still working on the

873
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 3: story as it's unfolding in kind of real time. So

874
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 3: you know, if you're into that, then then you'll enjoy

875
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,879
Speaker 3: this too, because it's about is about as a live investigative,

876
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 3: you know, in real time as you can be with

877
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 3: this type of with this type of work we do

878
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 3: so cool and.

879
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: Then well, I applaud you both for the work that

880
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: you do, diving deep into stories, looking into culpability, looking

881
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: deeper than what's on the surface. So congratulations to your

882
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 2: success and I can't wait to see and hear what's next.

883
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thanks Jamie,