1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. Transastra is a venture 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: back company revolutionizing asteroid mining and the future of the 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: space economy, including technology development and economic modeling and planning 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: for in space transportation enabled by asteroid mining. In an 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: effort to build a transportation network in space, or to say, 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: in a simple way, Transastor is using asteroids as gas 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: stations for rockets the one day may take us across 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,959 Speaker 1: our Solar system and perhaps the galaxies far beyond. I'm 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: really pleased to welcome my guests. Joel Cercel, founder and 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: CEO of Transastor. He has a PhD from cal Tech. 11 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: He's a former Jet Propulsion Laboratory technologist, as seven time 12 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: NASA NIAC Fellow, and he holds twenty plus patents. He 13 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: has led major space engineering efforts at cal Tech, the 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: Jet Proportion Laboratory, and the US Air Force, and even 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: has an asteroid named after him. Joel, welcome and thank 16 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: you for joining me in news World. You've had an 17 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: incredible career from Caltech to NASA and now founding Transastra. 18 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: What first drew you to space? 19 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: Well, mister speaker, first, I have to say this is 20 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 2: incredible honor. I've tracked your career for decades, and I'm 21 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 2: incredibly grateful for the contributions that you've made to this nation. 22 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 2: So the idea that I get to spend some time 23 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 2: with you this morning is just a thrill for me. 24 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: What attracted me to space? The answer is I never wasn't. 25 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: I grew up in various different places all over the world, 26 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: but most notably in the Arizona Desert, and my father 27 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: was a jet fighter pilot, and he would take us 28 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: out camp at night, and in the Arizona Desert, the 29 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: stars are so close and so helpable that you feel 30 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: a connection to the cosmos. Astronauts describe when they go 31 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 2: into space a phenomenon known as the overview effect, where 32 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: they begin to understand that the Earth is just a 33 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 2: tiny dot in space. But for me, it was never 34 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: not that way. And then I would see my father's 35 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 2: jet blazing through the night sky, and I knew that 36 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: was him, And I never had this feeling of separation 37 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 2: between Earth and space that most people grow up with. 38 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: When you have that different cosmic perspective, you begin very 39 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: quickly to realize that, as Sulkovsky said, Earth is the 40 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: cradle of humanity, but we can't live in our cradle forever. 41 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: Humanity is growing exponentially. In order to continue to thrive 42 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: as a species, we must continue our exponential growth, and 43 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 2: to do that we must tap into the resources of 44 00:02:54,960 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: the cosmos. This is just simply axiomatic to me. We 45 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: live in this incredibly interesting time where the first time, 46 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: for the first time, humanity or the let's say, life 47 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: from the biosphere of Earth now has the ability to 48 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: make the leap into the cosmos and to carry the 49 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: seed of life into space in order for that which 50 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: the Earth gave rise to to become immortal. It's fantastic. 51 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: Here you are in the Arizona Desert, you're interested in space, 52 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: and you go to cal Tech, which is maybe the 53 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: best science institution in the United States or even in 54 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: the world. 55 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 2: I mean, that's quite a jump from the desert. I 56 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: got to tell you, it was a dream. So I 57 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: grew up reading the books of Robert Heinlein, mostly Robert Heinlein, 58 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: but also asim Off Clark, the other science fiction giants, 59 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 2: and inevitably, the hero in a juvenile book written by 60 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: Hindlein would wind up being some disenfranchised boy who somehow 61 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: wounded up going to either Caltech or MIT, and I've 62 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: been accused of being bright. But people don't know about 63 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: me is that I grew up with significant learning disabilities, 64 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: terrible grades and so on, and so the idea that 65 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: I could wind up getting a PhD at cal Tech 66 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 2: is a mind blower. 67 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: How did that happen? Then? 68 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 2: Well out of college, my first job was working as 69 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 2: a researcher at JPL, and I went and told my 70 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: management at JPL I was going to go back to 71 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: grad school. And I had this idea for a new 72 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: kind of space propulsion engine and I was going to 73 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: go do a PhD on that if I could, And 74 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: I was looking around for grad schools, and I had 75 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: written a proposal to the Air Force Office to Scientific 76 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: Research to get my graduate work funded. Basically, the management 77 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: at JPL. JPL was a Caltech laboratory. They said, we'd 78 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 2: really rather not go to those other schools. We have 79 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: an advisor at cal Tech who would like to talk 80 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: to you. And that's how I wound up going to 81 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 2: cal Tech for graduate school. And then what was really 82 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: cool is I got to keep my job at JPL 83 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 2: during that time, and I had written a proposal to 84 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 2: fund it, so I actually did my experiment in the 85 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: Electric propulsion Lab at JPL while I was taking classes 86 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 2: at cal Tech. And I immediately started teaching part time 87 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: at Caltech after that, And. 88 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: Was caw Tech as extraordinary intellectually as people say it is. 89 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 2: It is extraordinary. It's fantastic for me. Yes, there were 90 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: some professors there who were just extraordinary, But I have 91 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: to tell you, at that time in the twentieth century, 92 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 2: JPL was also a pretty extraordinary place. One of my teachers, 93 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 2: by reading his books, had been Carl Sagan. And I 94 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 2: got to know Carl Sagan and have lunch with Carl 95 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: Sagan at JPL JPL as at Caltech Laboratory, and debated 96 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: him over lunch, and he absolutely sliced me to ribbons, 97 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: and I found out what a mature and sophisticated mind 98 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: could do. Yeah, cal Tech was fantastic. I've been blessed 99 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: with getting the opportunity to work with and meet some 100 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: of the really special historical figures of science and engineering 101 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: of the twentieth and twenty first centuries. When I was 102 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 2: in high school, I was working actually on asteroid mining, 103 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: and I wrote a letter to a guy named Freeman 104 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 2: Dyson who was at the Institute of Advanced Studies where 105 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 2: Einstein was. He immediately wrote me back and we started 106 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: a correspondence that led up until the time of his 107 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: death a few years ago. Freeman Dyson is one of 108 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 2: the great physicists and thinkers in science and related subjects. 109 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: The idea that I had him as a mentor, it's 110 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: just like, you feel so incredibly lucky. It's just you 111 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: can't even And I was honored to be able to 112 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: introduce him to my son. I have three wonderful sons, 113 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: but one of my sons happens to have his PhD 114 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 2: in the same field that I do, background in physics 115 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: and engineering, and we were able to have lunch together. 116 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: You know, things like that come from these opportunities. You 117 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 2: just feel so blessed and lucky. 118 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: When you look back on that, what would you say 119 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: is the biggest single thing you took from. 120 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: It's not a positive. When I started at JPL, I 121 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: thought the limitations for human activities were the laws of engineering, physics, 122 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 2: and economics. And what I found is the humans and 123 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 2: especially large institutional organizations, are primarily motivated by fear, fear 124 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 2: of taking risk. And it's interesting. When I was a 125 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 2: young man at JPL. I found out later that during 126 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: those times I was the most avid user of the 127 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: library at JPL, and I used to invent things all 128 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 2: the time, and the inevitable answer to any invention was, 129 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: we can't do that. And the other thing I noticed 130 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 2: is that all JPL did exquisitely good work. Every year, 131 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: it costs more to do their planetary missions than it 132 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: did the year before, and so they got incredibly good 133 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: at doing less and less for more, and sometimes more 134 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: for much more, with very little eye towards efficiency. Efficiency 135 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: was not rewarded, risk taking was not rewarded, but making 136 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: sure not to screw up was the main thing that rewarded. 137 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: And so I eventually had to leave. JPL is I 138 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: think the most effective government laboratory in the world, But 139 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: relative to what is possible, I learned that it's not 140 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 2: a place that I could stay. Much respect to the employees, 141 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 2: not much respect to the processes and the value system 142 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 2: in the culture. 143 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: It's interesting how virtually all bureaucracies acquire similar patterns of 144 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: self protection. 145 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, if the self organizing system like an organism, and 146 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: these organisms start to interact with each other and they 147 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: take on a Darwinian nature, that is about protecting the 148 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 2: organism instead of the mission, and they need to be reinvented. 149 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 2: They need to be reinvented or terminated. This idea that 150 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: Elon had of Doge, that every government agency, every law 151 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 2: should have a sunset clause, is I think absolutely correct. 152 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: So in a sense, you have a chance not to 153 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: take that insight and apply it in the private sector. 154 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: Talk about the creation of Transastra and what you think 155 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: its mission is. 156 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: You know, after leaving JPL, I taught at Caltech and consulted, 157 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: and I was consulting for a government agency that many 158 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: of your audience would never have heard of, but they'd 159 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: buy a lot of space launch vehicles and that sort 160 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 2: of thing. They're located on the East Coast. They told me, Hey, 161 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: there's this company called SpaceX. They say they're going to 162 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: be building reusable rockets, and there's a government federally funded 163 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 2: research and development organization FFRDC called the Aerospace Corporation. It's 164 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: looking them over and helping us decide whether we should 165 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 2: certify them for national security launches. But we think they're 166 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: being pretty conservative, and we need someone with sort of 167 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: an entrepreneurial bent to look at SpaceX and this is 168 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 2: when the Falcon nine was a new vehicle, barely had 169 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 2: one or two launches, and so I went out. I'd 170 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: known Elon a little bit. He's not like my best 171 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: body or anything, but i'd met him in two thousand 172 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: and six, so I'd known Elon a little bit. And 173 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: I know Gwen, the CEO at SpaceX better because she 174 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: used to try to recruit my students. And so I 175 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 2: had this consulting contract for this East Coast agency, this big, 176 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: multi billion dollar East Coast agency, to help the government 177 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 2: evaluate SpaceX should SpaceX be used for DoD launches. And 178 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 2: they wanted someone with a Silicon Valley perspective to come in. 179 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: So I got a chance to do a deep dive 180 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: on SpaceX's engineering processes, how they did business, their engineering designs, 181 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: their culture, that sort of thing. My mind was completely blown. 182 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: This was the dream that i'd had as a young 183 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 2: engineer JPL, thinking JPL would be like this. But these people, 184 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 2: they didn't just talk the top, they walked the walk. 185 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: And their efficiency and they're to innovate was exactly what 186 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 2: I'd always dreamed of seeing. So I provided a very 187 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 2: strong recommendation that the government do everything they can to 188 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: start launching on SpaceX in spite of the fact that 189 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: literally everyone in the aerospace that's an exaggerated everyone, most 190 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: of the powers that be and the authorities in the 191 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 2: aerospace industry said that they were going to fail. And 192 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 2: then I remember driving back from meeting with the Colonel 193 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 2: and it was a bunch of government employees recommending against me, 194 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 2: recommending for as a consultant. Thinking, Okay, the low cost 195 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 2: launch that we're all promised is going to happen. Now 196 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: what do I do? And I said to myself that 197 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: means I need to start an asteroid mining company. That day, 198 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 2: started to gin up ideas for the asteroid mining company, 199 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: wrote a white paper and sent it off to Jeff Bezos, 200 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 2: who had known since the year two thousand. I was 201 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 2: one of the consultants he brought in to help set 202 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 2: up Blue Origin. He invited me up to Seattle and 203 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: spent a day with me brainstorming about this. He gave 204 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 2: me a tour and everything, and I made the decision 205 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 2: at that point to launch Transastor as a company from 206 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: the perspective of using asteroids as the resources to launch 207 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 2: massive and dis industries into space. And I'm really glad 208 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 2: I did. It's been the most fun I've had in 209 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: my entire career. I've been able to invent at will. 210 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 2: I hire brilliant young engineers who I can use as 211 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 2: my eyes and hands on the technology to build things, 212 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 2: and it's just the funnest thing I could have possibly imagined. 213 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: One of your focuses is making asteroid mining a reality. 214 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: Can you describe why asteroids are particularly interesting? 215 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's a couple of things. One is, if 216 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 2: you go to any planetary body like the Moon or 217 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: Mars or the Earth, they are geologically differentiated. It means 218 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 2: they were built out of asteroids and comets and subplanetary 219 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: bodies over the course of a billion years or so. 220 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: In the process of being built up, they got hot, 221 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: they were molten, and all the materials separated out, and 222 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 2: what you find on the surface is pretty uninteresting materials 223 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: that are highly differentiated. Whereas when you go to asteroids, 224 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: especially primitive asteroids, you're looking at the primitive material that 225 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 2: the Solar System was first made of. And so if 226 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: you look at the periodic table, pretty much everything on 227 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: the periodic table is available. There are some things that 228 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 2: are a little less Nitrogen is an important thing that 229 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: you don't get a lot in asteroids, but all the 230 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 2: ingredients for rocket propellant, all the ingredients for sil for 231 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: making solar cells, metals, everything that you need to build 232 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 2: industry in space is there. So that's part of it. 233 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 2: But the big part of it is, as we say 234 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 2: in the space business, gravity sucks. It is very expensive 235 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 2: to get into space to overcome the gravity well of 236 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: the Earth. And it is true also but to a 237 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: lesser extent to the Moon and Mars. The reality is, 238 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: if you can include small asteroids, there are over a 239 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: billion asteroids spread throughout the Solar System, from near the 240 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: Sun out to beyond Pluto, and so wherever you go 241 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 2: you have the resupply that's just ready there for you 242 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 2: to get. And in particular, we have studied and found 243 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: that there is a population of asteroids. We calculate that 244 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: there are about seventeen thousand asteroids in this population that 245 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: are in what we call highly earth like orbits around 246 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: the Sun. That means everyone learned in school that the 247 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: Earth orbits the Sun at a distance of one astronomical 248 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 2: unit in a very circular orbit and goes around the 249 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 2: Sun once a year. Well, there are about seventeen thousand 250 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: small near Earth asteroids that also do the same thing, 251 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: a few hundred of which we've discovered so far, but 252 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: we're discovering them very rapidly with new telescopes. That population 253 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 2: of asteroids constitutes about a million tons of material, and 254 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: we now have the technology with transastorisk capture bag and 255 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: spacecraft that are basically off the shelf technology to start 256 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: going out and getting them and collecting them into a 257 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: resource space at the top of the gravity. Well. Now, 258 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 2: the beauty of this is that means the resources are 259 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: much cheaper there in space than if you have to 260 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: launch them from the Earth. Well, people say, yeah, but 261 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 2: low cost launch is coming. Yes, but even the lowest 262 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: cost launch that people are envisioning based on SpaceX is 263 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: Starship or Blue Origins New Glen or Stokes launch vehicle, 264 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: it's still going to be very expensive to get into space, 265 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 2: more expensive than air travel. And so if you can 266 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 2: then multiply that mass by harvesting in space where you needed, 267 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: then you move manufacturing of space objects from the ground 268 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: into space and you get another factor of one hundred 269 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 2: or so cost effectiveness. And this is the key to 270 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 2: the next wave of space industrialization, and in fact it's 271 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: of tremendous strategic importance to the United States. A lot 272 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 2: of people look at what's happening in space and they say, well, 273 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: the US has launched thousands of satellites in the last 274 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: few years. SpaceX is launching more into space than everyone 275 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 2: else in the world. But that's one company. Most analysts 276 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: who look at what's going on in space come to 277 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: the following conclusion. If it wasn't for SpaceX, China would 278 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: already be ahead of us in virtually every way in space. 279 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: We've got one company that's keeping us ahead, and two 280 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 2: China has massive programs to build fully reusable rockets that 281 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: will rival SpaceX's in a single digit number of years. 282 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 2: And then the other thing is SpaceX's other big advantages. 283 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 2: They're manufacturing capability. But anyone that looks at world affairs 284 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 2: knows that the leader in manufacturing globally is China. They 285 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 2: will have no trouble manufacturing thousands of satellites, tens of thousands, 286 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of satellites as soon as they get 287 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: the reusable launch thing hack. So we have a temporary 288 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 2: opportunity of advantage. But the only way for US to 289 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 2: press that advantage in an enduring way is to move 290 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 2: to harvesting resources in space and moving the manufacture of 291 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 2: space objects from manufacturing on the Earth and launching them 292 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: expensively into space to actually harvesting the materials there in 293 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 2: space and manufacturing them in situ. What happens when we 294 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: accomplish that is vast new industries open up, and vast 295 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 2: new military advantage to our benefit open up. 296 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: How much of that will rely on robotics. 297 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 2: All of it. I remember chatting with Jeff Bezos about 298 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 2: this many years ago, about what the purpose of humans 299 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 2: in spaces. This is before the current wave of AI 300 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 2: and robotics happened. We both agreed that the purpose of people, 301 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: for the most part, to be in space is to 302 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 2: be in space as a person. It's very quickly becoming 303 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 2: true that it just makes no practical sense for people 304 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 2: to do missions in space. I've also debated this and 305 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: discussed this with my good friend General Steve cost call 306 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: Sign Killer, who was one of the architects in the 307 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: Space Force, and he points out that you really don't 308 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 2: want robotics making kill decisions with weapons. That's a reason 309 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 2: to put people in space. But all of the reasons 310 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: to put people into space are intangible. Very quickly. Robots 311 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: will be better than people at literally everything. I have 312 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 2: a good friend who's an astronaut who did a couple 313 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 2: of EVAs in a short period of time on the 314 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 2: Space Shuttle helping to build the space station, and his 315 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 2: shoulders were just completely beat. This is a fifth degree 316 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 2: black belt in taekwondo. He's a complete mess physically after 317 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 2: it because of the trials of doing an EVA spacewalk 318 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: in space, whereas an anthropolopic robot, either teleoperated or autonomous, 319 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: that's no problem for them at all. It's really robotic centric. 320 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: In your model, do we consistently go to the asteroid 321 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: or do we find a really viable asteroid and try 322 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: to bring it closer to us. 323 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: So what we're going to do is we're going to 324 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: find a whole bunch of small asteroids and we're going 325 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 2: to build reusable vehicles in space. We're planning to do 326 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 2: our first asteroid mission in twenty twenty eight. We're working 327 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 2: with our sponsors right now to make that happen, and 328 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 2: that will be a small asteroid that's just a few 329 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 2: tens of tons, And what we intend to do is 330 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: to build a resource space aggregated out of small asteroids 331 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 2: and build basically industrial park in a manufacturer facility in 332 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 2: space at the top of the gravity Well. The cool 333 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 2: thing about it is, once you're at the top of 334 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 2: the hill, it's easy to fall down through the gravity 335 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: well to deliver products and commodities anywhere that people need 336 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 2: to consume them, especially in lower th orbit where all 337 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 2: the activity is going to be for a few years. 338 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: So this is the best way to resupply and build 339 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 2: for lower orbit. 340 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: One of the things you've already done, apparently is develop 341 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: a capture bag. 342 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 2: Yes, we're very excited about. We just had our first 343 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 2: launch into space with that and went to the space 344 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: station and demonstrated its functionality. What is this all about, Well, 345 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 2: the capture bag is part of our solution to the 346 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 2: problem of how you mine and harvest asteroids in space. 347 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 2: We basically say there are four problems we have to solve. 348 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 2: We call them detect, capture, move, and process. Detect is 349 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 2: about better telescopes for prospecting. So we've invented the Sutter telescope, 350 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: named after Sutter's mill in California that led to the 351 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: Gold Rush, and we own and operate a small global 352 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 2: network of telescopes to do that. Capture is you can't 353 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: really land on an asteroid. That's a misnomer. And when 354 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: you do get to an asteroid, it may be crumbly 355 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 2: like a sandpile. In fact, most of them probably are 356 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 2: maybe as soft as a dust bunny, or it may 357 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 2: be a piece of rock, and there's no way to 358 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 2: know in advance. So what you do is you captured 359 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 2: in a bag. Once you've captured in a bag, you 360 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 2: can start to work with it without making a mess 361 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 2: and having it just crumble and fall apart. You captured 362 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: in a bag, then you can move it with rocket 363 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 2: propulsion and you can process it. We started working on 364 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 2: our capture bag several years ago. Capture bag for asteroids 365 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: was not our idea. It was actually invented by a 366 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: guy at the NASA Glen Research Center, and it was 367 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 2: studied extensively at JPL for several years before they decided 368 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 2: it was too risky for them. What you do is 369 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 2: you captured it in a bag, then you can start 370 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 2: to work with it. So we flew a small capture 371 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: bag to ISS the International Space Station last week. We've 372 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 2: also won a significant contract from NASA to build a 373 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: larger bag, a ten meter bag, so that's more than 374 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: thirty feet in diameter. That's big enough to start and 375 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: go out and get asteroids. So that's a critical part 376 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 2: of our whole plan. Also, capture bags have many other applications. 377 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 2: Orbital debris is a navigational hazard that's a real problem 378 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 2: in lower th orbit, and we can use capture bags 379 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:26,959 Speaker 2: to go out. It's been estimated that if there are 380 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 2: fifty objects, if you were to pick them up and 381 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: clean them up, it would eliminate half of the orbital 382 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 2: debris problem in lower th orbit. That's an easy ask 383 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: for capture bag and our mission partners. 384 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: The way your bag works, do you basically creep up 385 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: behind it so that you are minimizing the speed differential? 386 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, you basically close the speed differential, which means that 387 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 2: you'd use different capture bags for different orbits. 388 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: You couldn't have a capture bag of the thing coming 389 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: straight at you because we just blow right through your bet. 390 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 2: Absolutely, the closing voloc in space are so much higher 391 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 2: than you can even imagine without technical thinking and engineering. 392 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 2: It's completely counterintuitive, and so you basically close to a 393 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: near zero velocity open the capture bag. It's held open 394 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 2: with struts and trusts that are inflated. Fly the capture 395 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 2: bag over the object, then close the capture bag. We 396 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 2: demonstrated open in capture bag, closing it, cinching it down, 397 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 2: doing that multiple times on the Space station last week. 398 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 2: But there are important defense applications of this. Also, our 399 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 2: lead customer in this area is the Space Force, and 400 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 2: there are things in space that aren't where they should 401 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 2: be as far as the Space Force is concerned, and 402 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 2: we define Debrie as anything that's not where it should 403 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 2: be as far as our important clients are concerned, and 404 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 2: so we do work with the Space Force on applications. 405 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: Also, part of those involves, as you said earlier, to 406 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,959 Speaker 1: detect and you'll be un developing the Sutter Telescope network. 407 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: What makes it different, So what makes it different is 408 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: two things. One, we've patented a software architecture and software 409 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: algorithms approaches that make it possible for us to process 410 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: a stack of short images to find moving targets in 411 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: it much more efficient than any other method that we're 412 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 2: aware of. We think it's the theoretical limit of the 413 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 2: minimum compute you can do. The reason that's important is 414 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 2: normally it takes the equivalent of a supercomputer working for 415 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: weeks to process images to find all the moving targets. 416 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 2: What's important about that is it means we can build 417 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: low cost telescopes with their compute. And the technical term 418 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: for this is on the edge, where we put the 419 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 2: computer in with the telescope. That's Thing one. Now the 420 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: compute also is part of Thing one. The compute is 421 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 2: what we call our thes software is so efficient it 422 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: can work on a low powered space processor. So we've 423 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 2: actually uploaded it to a satellite in Earth orbit without 424 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 2: much of a computer and shown that that satellite can 425 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 2: only track big satellites without our software. But when we 426 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: turn our software on it, it can see very faint 427 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 2: satellites that happen to be very near those big satellites, 428 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: which is very important to the space force. So Sutter 429 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 2: technology is for ground and space. Right now we only 430 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 2: routinely operated on the ground, but it has tremendous potential 431 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 2: for going into space, and there are reasons you want 432 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 2: to prospect and find things from space because of the 433 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: sun angle and that sort of thing. So Thing one 434 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 2: is our software. Thing two is our practical mechatronics Mechatronics 435 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 2: is a field of engineering close to robotics that involves electronics, software, 436 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 2: and mechanisms all integrated. And we have very robust modular 437 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: mechatronics into our telescopes, so that we've made them completely modular, 438 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 2: So we've actually manufacture them here in our laboratory in 439 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 2: southern California, and then we can deploy them all over 440 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: the world and very quickly deploy a large network of these, 441 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 2: and that's something that the Space Force is very interested in. 442 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 2: So it's more cost effective and more sensitivity per dollar 443 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: than what anyone else has. 444 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: Back to the asteroids for a second, I remember reading 445 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: that there's one asteroid that's been identified that probably has 446 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: the equivalent I would think it's ten trillion dollars of 447 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: precious metals in your judgment, in the foreseeable future, will 448 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: you be able to start identifying small asteroids reasonably close 449 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: to Earth that could in fact be developed. 450 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely, we're doing that. We have a list of a 451 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 2: few hundred candidates, and we've identified specific asteroids that we're 452 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: planning and going and doing so. For example, there's a 453 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: little asteroid two thousand and six RAH one twenty that 454 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 2: can fit in our ten meter bag. It weighs about 455 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 2: thirty tons, and we're planning on going out and getting it. Now. 456 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 2: This is very significant new from a space policy and 457 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 2: law perspective, because we intend to capture that asteroid in 458 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 2: a bag, thereby own all of its resources that's precedent centate. 459 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: Then we intend to maneuver it into a permanent, stable 460 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: orbit with the Earth and set it up as the 461 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 2: beginning of a resource base for space manufacturing. That is 462 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: a seminal historical mission that we're planning on doing in 463 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: twenty twenty eight. We think that's a major change in 464 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: the course of history of humanity in space. And then 465 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 2: we anticipate building reusable spacecraft to be able to do that, 466 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 2: ramping up over time to as much as twice a week, 467 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: to aggregate as much as a million tons of material 468 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 2: into that resource base over a period of about ten years, 469 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 2: being owned by the United States, private sector ownership by 470 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 2: the United States as a resource base for the Space Force, 471 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 2: for NASA, and for private sector businesses in space. We 472 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: think that's historic. We think that changes the trajectory of 473 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 2: humanity and the Cosmos because now, for the first time, 474 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: it's cheap to get the resources to build tens of thousands, 475 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of satellites for many applications and to 476 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: start building megastructures. Data processing for AI, crypto and other 477 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: things needs to move into space for a variety of reasons, 478 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: and so we see massive data processing systems being built 479 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 2: out of space resources in the near future. And people 480 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 2: will want to move into space, and they'll need very 481 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: large habitats to do it, habitats that provide Earth normal 482 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: gravity through spin and radiation, shielding from plentiful materials an 483 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 2: Earth normal atmosphere. All those resources come from the asteroids 484 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 2: to make that happen. There is enough material in the 485 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: asteroids to build worlds in space with a thousand times 486 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 2: the carrying capacity of the Earth. This is a thousand 487 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: years of exponential growth of our species without limits associated 488 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 2: with energy and material. Now that's the long term vision, 489 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: but the practical reality is we can start doing this 490 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: now based on the technology stack that transastor is already built, 491 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 2: and there are practical benefits today in pivoting into manufacturing 492 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 2: things in space instead of on the ground and giving 493 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 2: the United States a tremendous business and logistical advantage. 494 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: How soon do you think you'll be able to have 495 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: a system and be able to find an appropriate asteroid 496 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: to actually make it. Sort of a venture capital where 497 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: a company might be set up specifically to actually try 498 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: to make money out of the process. 499 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 2: Transastor is a company set up specifically to make money 500 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: out of the process. We're working right now with sponsors 501 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 2: to do that mission in twenty twenty eight with a 502 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 2: specific asteroid, and the name of the asteroid is two 503 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: thousand and six RH one two. And we have already 504 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 2: begun the engineering development of those systems. 505 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: Wow, I mean that's pretty quick. 506 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 2: Well, one of the big tech billionaires who's involved in 507 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 2: the space business was recently talking about his realization and 508 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: I'm surprised it took him so long to come to 509 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,719 Speaker 2: it that the next big business in space is building 510 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 2: data processing centers in space. And he said, we could 511 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: be ten or twenty years from now. As soon as 512 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 2: you say it's ten or twenty years, it's at least 513 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 2: ten or twenty years. You've got to move everything to 514 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: the left on the calendar, and you've got to be 515 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 2: aggressive in your schedules and your projections. If someone says 516 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 2: it's more than ten years, it means they're not serious. 517 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: About it. Look, we flew our first capture bag in 518 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: space last week. We are in the process of closing 519 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 2: contracts to do that mission I just told you about 520 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 2: right now, I've said too much about it, but I 521 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: figured if I was going to tell anyone about our 522 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 2: secret plan, it would be you. Ha. No one's listening today, 523 00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 2: are they? 524 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: I hope a few people do, including maybe a couple 525 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: of guys who may want to call you about investment opportunities. 526 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: You are in a real upward curve that, if it works, 527 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: could be phenomenal. 528 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 2: Well, right now, it's a venture tech investment, but very 529 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 2: quickly we're going to turn it into an infrastructure investment 530 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 2: and to fulfill the full vision this is infrastructure. This 531 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 2: is tens of billions, but the initial investment to make 532 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: it go is well within the realm of venture investment. 533 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: I am a big fan of nuclear engines, and in 534 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: particular Eye on Drive if you're going to go any 535 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: place much further than the moon, because it seems to 536 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: me they give you both speed over time and they 537 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: give you a nuclear submarine level of not having to 538 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: refuel every week or every two weeks. Do you have 539 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: any strong feelings either way about the potential nuclear space. 540 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 2: If I'm a card carrying expert on anything, it's a 541 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 2: card carrying expert on that. I did my PhD in 542 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 2: electric propulsion. I with a guy named John Brofia JPL 543 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 2: formulated the n Star system, which was the first deep 544 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 2: space application of ion propulsion. That led to the Deep 545 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 2: Space one mission, the JPL FLEU that led to the 546 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 2: Dawn mission, which used the n Star system to go 547 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 2: to the Asteroids series. Investa I used to manage NASA's 548 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 2: Advanced Propulsion Technology program for the country. This is something 549 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 2: I've thought very very deeply about. 550 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: I actually hear a good spot. So what do you think? 551 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 2: So I'm a big advocate of electric propulsion for the 552 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 2: kinds of applications that SpaceX uses it for, which is 553 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 2: station keeping for satellites. But in a capitalistic economic sense, 554 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 2: if you want to make money, time is money, and 555 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 2: it's too slow, you need high thrust systems. And the 556 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 2: game changer here is the NERD term is in situ 557 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: resource utilization ISRU. The game changer here is if you're 558 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 2: refueling in space, then specific impulse, which is how we 559 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: measure the propellant efficiency of a rocket engine, becomes less important, 560 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 2: and so what you do is you switch to high 561 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: thrust systems that can get you around faster. And you 562 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 2: have to go fast in business because time is money. 563 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 2: You're paying interest on things. So electric propulsion is an 564 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 2: important technology, will always be We started flying in space 565 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 2: decades ago and now it's a cornerstone technology. But for 566 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 2: main propulsion, I just don't see it. 567 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: Now. 568 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 2: There's a much longer conversation that a bunch of nerds 569 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 2: can get together about very exotic advanced implementations and so on. 570 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 2: But my short answer is I'm a huge believer in 571 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 2: electric propulsion, but not for main propulsion, not for the 572 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 2: main drive. 573 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: So do you think some form of gas stations to 574 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: use a simple term, that allow chemical systems to refuel 575 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: on a root basis actually provides a more likely technology 576 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: for the next generation or two. 577 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 2: Well, electric propulsion will always be here, and it is 578 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 2: an important adjunct ancillary technology, no question about it. I'm 579 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 2: a huge advocate of it. But there's a reason why 580 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 2: companies like Blue Origin and SpaceX are baselining propellant resupply. 581 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 2: If you're going to go down to a planetary surface 582 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 2: like the Moon or Mars, you absolutely need to harvest 583 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 2: the propellant there. And in order to land on a planet, 584 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 2: you need a high thrust propulsion system. An electric propulsion 585 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 2: will never be there, but for station keeping and many 586 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 2: other applications it's super important. I'm actually a huge advocate 587 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 2: of a technology called solar thermal propulsion, and in fact 588 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 2: transast has a solar thermal rocket that we call omnivore. 589 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of solar thermal propulsion? No? 590 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: What is it? 591 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 2: Well, you know how nuclear rockets work, right, So a 592 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 2: nuclear rocket is basically it's a nuclear reactor. It could 593 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 2: be the size of a refrigerator that gets very very 594 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 2: hot and then you flow propellants through it and a 595 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 2: superheats that propellant. You squirted it out of a nozzle 596 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 2: to produce thrust. So a solar thermal rocket is I 597 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 2: think a much more cost effective approach. And that is, 598 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 2: instead of dealing with all the safety regulations and test 599 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 2: concerns and so on of building a nuclear reactor that 600 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 2: can run cryogenic propellants through. Instead of doing that, you 601 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 2: build a solar receiver and we've built and tested several 602 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 2: of these at Transastra. And then you to a lightweight 603 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 2: solar concentrator in space that concentrates sunlight onto the solar receiver. 604 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 2: We think it's about one percent the cost of a 605 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 2: nuclear rocket for about eighty percent of the performance, and 606 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 2: we think that is a really powerful solution that the 607 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 2: community has kind of overlooked. From an engineering perspective. I'm 608 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: a huge advocate of nuclear rockets, but from a cost 609 00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 2: effectiveness and overall a good solution, I don't think it is. 610 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 2: But solar thermal is a very exciting prospect. 611 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: Let me show you ignorance because I thought I had 612 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: read somewhere that if you had an ion drive and 613 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: you're talking about going beyond the moon, that its continuous 614 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: acceleration means you actually have to be very fast over time. 615 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: You're not fast the first two days, but because you 616 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: continually accelerating, is that inaccurate. 617 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 2: It's not inaccurate, but it's a little bit of a misnomer. 618 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 2: The way we measure velocity in space is very different 619 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 2: from the way we measure velocity on the Earth, and 620 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 2: it means something very different. And so we're mixing these 621 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 2: mathematical concepts from space mission design with our terrestrial understanding. 622 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,800 Speaker 2: In space, there's a parameter called delta V, and delta 623 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 2: V has a units of velocity miles per hour or 624 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 2: meters per second or whatever, and so people confuse it 625 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 2: with a velocity, but it's not a velocity. It's a 626 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 2: measure of the energy that the propulsion system has to 627 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 2: deliver to get you from point A to point B. 628 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 2: An electric propulsion and can deliver much more delta V, 629 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 2: but it takes years to deliver that delta V, and 630 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 2: we don't have years to wait. While there's truth in 631 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 2: what you just said, the devil's in the details and 632 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 2: you really have to understand the physics and mathematics to 633 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 2: put in perspective. Let me just say this also, there 634 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 2: are world class card carrying experts who would disagree with me, 635 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 2: and we would have a technical discussion. For me as 636 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 2: a NERD would be a lot of fun. And if 637 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 2: you don't know the math, it would be interesting. And 638 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 2: so I recognize that there is not a unanimity of you. 639 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 2: But the leading space technology companies all have electric propulsion systems, 640 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 2: mostly for station keeping, but for Maine delta V. When 641 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 2: you're in a hurry and you need to make money, 642 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 2: it comes down to high thrust systems, which could be 643 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 2: advanced chemical propulsion solar thermal rockets. Those would be my 644 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 2: two choices. And I think solar thermal has the greater 645 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 2: potential in space because chemical rockets require that you get 646 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 2: the right care mmicals. But Transasfor's omnivore propulsion system is 647 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 2: called omnivore because it can use anything as propellant, even 648 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 2: just water. 649 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: If we were serious about it, how far are we 650 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 1: from being able to create a working solar thermal rocket. 651 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 2: A couple of years. It's not a matter of feasibility, 652 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 2: it's just a matter of dollars. It was invented in 653 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties by one of the rocket engineers that 654 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: came over from Germany after World War Two. His name 655 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 2: was Kraft Araki, and he was actually an instructor of 656 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 2: mine at the Air Force Academy. I found out about 657 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 2: it because I brought him my notes from this invention 658 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 2: that I had had in high school that I called 659 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 2: the solar powered rocket, and I showed it to him 660 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 2: and I said, what do you think of this? And 661 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 2: he reached into his briefcase and showed me his nineteen 662 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 2: fifty seven paper and said, son, I was there first. 663 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 2: It's not magical. Technology, but it does require some work 664 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 2: to make it happen. 665 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: It's kind of wild. Look, this has been very exciting. 666 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,800 Speaker 1: I hope maybe a year from now we can redo 667 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: this because I'm confident at the rate you're moving, you're 668 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: going to have lots and lots of things that's gonna 669 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: be very, very interesting. 670 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 2: This has been fun. Thank you so much for the 671 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 2: insightful questions, Joel. 672 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me. The pioneering 673 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: work that Transastor is doing is the result of your 674 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: leadership and extraordinary expertise. And I'll let our listeners know 675 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: they can find out more about the work you're doing 676 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: at Transastra dot com. 677 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 2: It's really an honor to meet you, Newt. I think 678 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,280 Speaker 2: about how lucky we are that you did the contract 679 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 2: with America and what condition this country would be right 680 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 2: now without it. You've made your mark on history in 681 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,760 Speaker 2: a very significant way and we should all be grateful 682 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,919 Speaker 2: for it. And the idea that I get to meet you, 683 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 2: in addition to all these other wonderful people that I've 684 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 2: met in my career, is just a delight. 685 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest doctor Joel Surcell. You can 686 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 1: learn more about Transastra on our show page at newtworld 687 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: dot com. New Toild is produced by Gager three sixty 688 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: and iHeart Media. Our executive producer is Garnsey Sloan. Our 689 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson we Our work for the show 690 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 691 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 1: at Ginglish three sixty. If you've been enjoy Newtsworld, I 692 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us 693 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others 694 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of 695 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: news World can sign up for my three freeweekly columns 696 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: at Ginglishtrey sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Nut Gingwich. 697 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 1: This is news World.