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Speaker 1: Let's up, y'all before we start? What up? Y'all? Before

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Speaker 1: we start this week's episode, I want to give you

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Speaker 1: guys a heads up that we're going to be off

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Speaker 1: for the next few weeks. We have some exciting announcements

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Speaker 1: which we'll be able to tell you all about very soon.

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Speaker 1: But in the meantime, if you want to be the

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Speaker 1: first to hear about it, subscribe to our newsletter, No

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Speaker 1: Such Thing That Show, and you can also follow us

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Speaker 1: on Instagram at No sich Thing Show, and you'll be

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Speaker 1: the first to hear about our new and exciting updates

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Speaker 1: that we will tell you all about very very very

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Speaker 1: very very very very soon. Okay, let's talk about siblings.

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Speaker 2: I'm Manny, I'm Noah, this.

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Speaker 1: Is Devin, and this is no such thing the show

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Speaker 1: where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually

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Speaker 1: doing the research. On today's episode, who's more influential your

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Speaker 1: parents or your siblings?

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Speaker 3: There's no no such things touch thing.

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Speaker 4: Touch than.

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Speaker 1: To So today's episode was inspired by a new book

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Speaker 1: called The Family Dynamic by Susan Dominis, who I'll be

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Speaker 1: talking to later in this episode. The book profiles six

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Speaker 1: families with multiple successful siblings and tries to analyze what

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Speaker 1: factors have actually made them successful. So she looks into

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Speaker 1: the influence of their parents, their siblings, the environments they

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Speaker 1: grew up in. After reading the book, I think there's

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Speaker 1: an argument to be made that siblings are actually more

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Speaker 1: influential than our parents. But why don't we start here

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Speaker 1: Since we all have siblings, let's go around and break

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Speaker 1: down when we fall on our ber folder and how

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Speaker 1: many siblings we have. So I'll start. I have one

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Speaker 1: sibling who is fifteen years younger than me, so I'm

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Speaker 1: thirty two and he is seventeen. Noah, I am a

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Speaker 1: middle child.

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Speaker 4: So I have an older brother who is thirty six,

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Speaker 4: and a younger sister who is six years younger than

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Speaker 4: me twenty six.

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Speaker 2: I always struggle remembering my siblings agesc too, so but

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Speaker 2: let's see if I can do this. I've got an

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Speaker 2: older brother who's thirty five or thirty six. There's me

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Speaker 2: who's thirty three. My younger sister's only a year younger

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Speaker 2: than me, so she's thirty two.

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Speaker 1: Irish siblings twins? What do they call that? Iris? Twins? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Right after the other one? Yeah, if that's derogatory, I

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Speaker 1: didn't come up with that, heyth.

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Speaker 4: A lot of people are saying we need more of

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Speaker 4: that Catholic twins.

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Speaker 2: And then my youngest brother is twenty nine, I think

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Speaker 2: twenty eight or twenty nine.

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Speaker 1: He's not thirty yet. I know that. Who can say

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Speaker 1: we're all, let's say, relatively successful year old living in

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Speaker 1: New York. What were your family dynamics like growing up? Like,

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Speaker 1: did your parents have really high expectations when it came

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Speaker 1: to school? You know, some people grow up in households

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Speaker 1: where they have like really strict curfews, like they can't

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Speaker 1: hang out with friends at certain times. Like what was

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Speaker 1: what was the vibe at home growing up? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I would say relatively strict in terms of like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: sleepovers and that kind of stuff. I will say my

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Speaker 2: older brother kind of took the brunt of that. Like

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Speaker 2: by the time you get to the second child, it's

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Speaker 2: not as strict.

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Speaker 1: Mm. So okay, So give me some examples, Like in

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Speaker 1: terms of school, what was the expectation.

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Speaker 2: For all four of us?

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Speaker 1: It was straight a's okay. Yeah, So if you came home,

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Speaker 1: would it be it'd be like what's going on here?

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Speaker 1: What's going on? But were your parents like checking your

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Speaker 1: homework every night. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say mine was sound just less less

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Speaker 4: strict than that. There was definitely expectations of, you know,

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Speaker 4: doing well and getting your stuff done. But I was

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Speaker 4: And it's interesting. I'd be curious what my older brother

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Speaker 4: would say. But for me, it was like pretty hands off.

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Speaker 4: It felt like where it's like they trusted me to

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Speaker 4: get my stuff done.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't. I don't remember.

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Speaker 4: Being like beg to do my homework or do things

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Speaker 4: like that.

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Speaker 2: How about hobbies, like would they make you like play

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Speaker 2: piano or read? Like in our household, they made sure

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Speaker 2: we were always reading something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, did you have to have to like read a

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Speaker 1: book a week or ye?

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Speaker 4: That stuff was always like usually tied to school, like

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Speaker 4: the summer reading and that sort of thing. But you know,

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Speaker 4: I mean I read, My family read and did this thing,

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Speaker 4: so it was kind of natural to do.

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Speaker 2: Okay. It wasn't like so you just liked reading.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, which is parenting, But yeah, I wasn't like what

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Speaker 4: are you reading this month?

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Speaker 5: For godcha?

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Speaker 1: You have to read parents an of books? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would say it's similar to nouh. It was like the

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Speaker 1: expectation was like, you're going to do well in school.

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Speaker 1: But my parents I don't remember it, Like I'm sure

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Speaker 1: when I was much younger they checked my homework and stuff,

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Speaker 1: but it was like pretty much on me. So it

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Speaker 1: was more so like here, we have expectations, but like

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Speaker 1: it's up to you to like fulfill them. We're not

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Speaker 1: going to give you like a step by step breakdown

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Speaker 1: on how you are going to achieve this. All right,

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Speaker 1: So we talked a lot about kind of expectations with

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Speaker 1: your parents. Were your siblings like pressuring you to do

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Speaker 1: things or like on you about stuff, especially because both

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Speaker 1: of you had older siblings.

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Speaker 4: Like, so this is something that I think is key

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Speaker 4: is my brother's four years older than me, so we

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Speaker 4: didn't really overlap in school. I feel like when people

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Speaker 4: have siblings that are a year apart or two years apart,

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Speaker 4: they're so tethered socially and kind of in the school

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Speaker 4: system where it's like every teacher is going to know, okay,

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Speaker 4: those are the those are the manny brothers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, I did my stuff.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, my brother wasn't caught in to discipline me much,

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Speaker 4: but he was a good student, so definitely set an

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Speaker 4: example in that sense. He definitely took his work seriously

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Speaker 4: and then I saw him, you know, go to school

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Speaker 4: and other things, so it was like, okay, so.

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Speaker 1: He led by example more so than not like yo,

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Speaker 1: no specific like just knock it off and do this,

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Speaker 1: and we and then just more broadly like we never

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Speaker 1: like fought really or bickered.

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Speaker 4: Like other than like sure small things or whatever.

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Speaker 2: My dynamic my older brother in terms of school is

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Speaker 2: a little different because well, we we're classic like immigrant family,

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Speaker 2: where like we're here in this country, you guys better

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Speaker 2: fucking do perfect or they'll kick us out.

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Speaker 3: And uh.

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Speaker 2: But he so he was just like an insanely good student,

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Speaker 2: and I think just because of the dynamic of like

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Speaker 2: that immigrant family who like wants you to become pharmacists,

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. It went down a chain of

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Speaker 2: like my parents were really strict on him, and then

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Speaker 2: he was definitely checking up on my schooling and being like, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, how come you didn't do we better in

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Speaker 2: this class? Blah blah blah. It wasn't like he would

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Speaker 2: be a that upset, but more like checking in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So he led more by like actually instruction.

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Speaker 2: By example and also by like it was pretty like

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Speaker 2: kind of hands on in the early Like I won

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Speaker 2: the spelling bee at my school in fourth grade and

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Speaker 2: so then they sent me to like the city spelling bee.

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Speaker 2: I was practicing for the city championship with my older

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Speaker 2: brother and that was like, you know, he was really

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Speaker 2: drilling me on the words and stuff, and like then

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Speaker 2: I went up there and failed to spell like sorcerer

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Speaker 2: or something like that, and then he was like disappointed

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Speaker 2: like that kind of yeah, sorcerer, I hope so s

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Speaker 2: O R C E.

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Speaker 4: R E R nice, well done?

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Speaker 2: Can I get the country of Orgony?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: It was like he was like involved but not but

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Speaker 2: kind of in a chill way, like it wasn't ever like,

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Speaker 2: damn my brother's home.

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Speaker 1: I needed a cool uncle.

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Speaker 2: But he kind of had to do that as well

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Speaker 2: because our parents were working all the time. And it's

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Speaker 2: crazy to think, like he was actually like twelve when

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Speaker 2: this was happening. Yeah, took on a lot of responsibility early.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, obviously with me, it's very different

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Speaker 1: having a brother. You know, I was in high school

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Speaker 1: when my brother was born, so people always like, well,

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Speaker 1: you had such a big age difference, like were you

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Speaker 1: guys close and we were because I would drag him

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Speaker 1: around and like it was in all my like student

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Speaker 1: films at the time, Like I would put him in stuff,

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Speaker 1: So I would hang out with him a lot. But

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Speaker 1: obviously it is a very different dynamic. So one of

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Speaker 1: the things that really drew me to Susan's reporting is

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Speaker 1: her focusing in on families with multiple successful siblings and

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Speaker 1: influence that they have on one another. I feel like

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Speaker 1: most of the time we were talking about like successful people,

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Speaker 1: we're usually talking about their parents and how their raise.

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Speaker 1: So neither one of you have actually read this book

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Speaker 1: yet that's or definitely done any research. So I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: just based on what we were talking about in terms

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Speaker 1: of influences and that sort of thing, who do you

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Speaker 1: think has been more influential to where you are today?

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Speaker 1: Your parents or your siblings.

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Speaker 2: It's got to be I think it's got to be

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Speaker 2: my siblings, And I think the reason. One of the

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Speaker 2: reasons could be that my parents are like immigrants to

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Speaker 2: this country and they just come from like kind of

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Speaker 2: a completely different culture, whereas my siblings we all grew

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Speaker 2: up here and I don't know, we like culturally socially,

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Speaker 2: we were much more similar to each other than we

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Speaker 2: were to our parents.

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Speaker 1: No, it's definitely a mix.

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Speaker 4: I'd probably say my parents overall, just as far as

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Speaker 4: my kind of I don't know how to structure my

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Speaker 4: life and those sorts of things. But then there's obvious

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Speaker 4: things like I went to the same college as my brother,

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Speaker 4: and you know, he did well in school, so I

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Speaker 4: wanted to do well in school. So things like that.

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Speaker 4: We kind of diverged at a certain point in terms

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Speaker 4: of interests and kind of you know, career type and

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Speaker 4: things like that. But there's definitely things where it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: he set an example for me.

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Speaker 1: But you still think that your parents at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day still more influential, even if he was

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Speaker 1: a positive influence.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's hard to kind

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Speaker 4: of quantify, I guess, or like delineate what came from who,

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Speaker 4: But that's just kind of my gut feeling, I guess.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and when

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Speaker 1: we come back, we'll hear from Susan and her reporting

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Speaker 1: on family dynamics. All right, we're back. This is no

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Speaker 1: such thing. I'm manny Noah, Devin, Can I have you

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Speaker 1: start by introducing yourself sure.

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Speaker 6: My name is Susan Dominus, and I am the author

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Speaker 6: of The Family Dynamic, A Journey inside the Mystery of

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Speaker 6: Sibling Success. I'm also a staff writer at the Sunday

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Speaker 6: New York Times magazine.

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Speaker 1: So as a reminder, Susan's book profile six different families.

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Speaker 1: So I was curious why she chose these specific families.

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Speaker 6: When we look at a family that has, you know,

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Speaker 6: one kid who's wildly successful, I think you can think

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Speaker 6: that maybe that kid was an outlier, a bunch of

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Speaker 6: lucky things happened to that child, and or that person

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Speaker 6: was extremely talented.

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Speaker 3: And was an outlier in that way.

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Speaker 6: But I was interested in families where multiple siblings were

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Speaker 6: very successful, because when you see it across the board,

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Speaker 6: then you kind of think, well, maybe there was something

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Speaker 6: consistent that the parents were doing in the family home

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Speaker 6: that inspired those kids. And I was curious to find

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Speaker 6: out what those things were.

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Speaker 1: So we already talked a bit about our own family dynamics,

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Speaker 1: but I was curious to hear what Susan's family dynamic was. Like.

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Speaker 6: I have an older brother and an older sister, and

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Speaker 6: I grew up in the seventies and eighties, which most

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Speaker 6: of us recalls an era of benign neglect.

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Speaker 3: My parents definitely expected us.

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Speaker 6: To get good grades, and if they were good grades

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Speaker 6: were not forthcoming, that was a problem. But beyond that,

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Speaker 6: they didn't have particularly life big dreams for us other

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Speaker 6: than that we have stable careers and you know, happy lives.

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Speaker 1: But when Susan was younger, she also spent time with

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Speaker 1: other families where she noticed a very different family dynamic.

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Speaker 6: My parents used to go on vacation just the two

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Speaker 6: of them, or sometimes they traveled for work, and they

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Speaker 6: would leave us with family friends for up to ten days,

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Speaker 6: maybe even a little bit longer, each of us in

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Speaker 6: a different household. And the particular family friends that I

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Speaker 6: stayed with them most had like these really elaborate dinner

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Speaker 6: time cultural kind of enrichment opportunities where the father would

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Speaker 6: do very elaborate math word games with the kids, like,

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Speaker 6: you know, playing is leaving Albuquerque flying x number of

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Speaker 6: miles per hour, another one is leaving another city, what

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Speaker 6: time is it when they cross paths, you know, where

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Speaker 6: they would talk about current events and this very deliberate way,

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Speaker 6: and I loved it until the moment when the father

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Speaker 6: turned to me and asked me one of those math questions,

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Speaker 6: and I burst into tears.

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Speaker 3: Because like, there was no way in hell that I

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Speaker 3: could do that.

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Speaker 6: I was amazed, and I loved watching the kids work

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Speaker 6: it out, but like I couldn't.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like my worst nightmare. Like we're trying to

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Speaker 1: have dinner and you're asking me math questions that I

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Speaker 1: need to work out in my head.

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Speaker 6: Well it's funny because I always admit that I was

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Speaker 6: a very ambitious kid, and I think they did want to.

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Speaker 3: Do something exciting with my life.

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Speaker 6: And I was sort of intrigued by the fact that

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Speaker 6: the parents were giving their kids this boost beyond our

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Speaker 6: pretty mediocre public high school education that we were getting.

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Speaker 6: So I both envied it a little bit and also

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Speaker 6: was relieved when I got back to my house and

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Speaker 6: all we had to do.

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Speaker 3: My father was very strict about chewing with your mouth clothes.

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Speaker 3: That was like the big imperative for our dinner table.

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Speaker 1: So I'm curious, but what were your dinner time routines.

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Speaker 1: Did you have any specific like every night we have

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Speaker 1: to do ex for dinner? Were you getting math prolems

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Speaker 1: at the dinner table?

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Speaker 2: Not every night, but like definitely there were times when

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Speaker 2: my dad would be like at dinner, like tell me

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Speaker 2: what nine times four is or whatever, just so like

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Speaker 2: just to kind of quiz us on the thing that

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Speaker 2: we were. Yeah, but no, mostly I think our dinners

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Speaker 2: were pretty chill.

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Speaker 1: You know. My ritual was at the dinner table. We

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Speaker 1: always had a TV in the kitchen. Oh oh we do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great TV dinners.

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Speaker 1: So kind of in the start of a book, Susan really

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Speaker 1: comes at the idea that parents have this like huge

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Speaker 1: impact on the outcome of their kids' lives. She says,

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously there's some basic things that parents can

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Speaker 1: do they set their kids up for success. But she

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Speaker 1: makes the argument that these little, like small minute things

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Speaker 1: that parents think so hard about about like should we

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Speaker 1: have a chore wheel, and like these small decisions what

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Speaker 1: rules should we have, they don't really matter all that much.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's basically we know this from twins studies, and

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Speaker 6: from twins you've been separated at birth. And there are

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Speaker 6: critiques of this research, but most behavioral genet at least

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Speaker 6: will tell you that you know, you come into the

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Speaker 6: earth and you have certain genetic variations that lead you

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Speaker 6: in certain directions, and that accounts for like fifty percent

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Speaker 6: of the differences among people in a population, let's say.

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Speaker 3: But then there's also just this.

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Speaker 6: Huge environmental effect, and people often think of that as

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Speaker 6: like parenting. But the environmental effect is like everything that

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Speaker 6: happens to you. It's the school that you go to,

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Speaker 6: it's what teacher you had, it's your siblings, it's like

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Speaker 6: whether it was sunny where you grew up. It's what

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Speaker 6: opportunities were presented to you, and a huge amount of

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Speaker 6: like chance and luck and happenstance. So parenting, when you

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Speaker 6: think about it, by the time kids are five years old,

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Speaker 6: you know, there's only so many hours a day you're

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Speaker 6: spending with your parents, and there's so much that happens

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Speaker 6: over the course of the day that your parents have

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Speaker 6: nothing to do with. So the idea that you know,

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Speaker 6: whether you enforce rules strictly or not, or make your

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Speaker 6: kid practice for half an hour of piano or an

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Speaker 6: hour a day, and that's going to have some like

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Speaker 6: huge effect on their diligence or their conscientiousness. I don't

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Speaker 6: I think the search suggests that's probably not true. You know,

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Speaker 6: parenting matters for kids. I would say it matters in

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Speaker 6: the moment for kids and you know, like, how do

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Speaker 6: they feel, how is that relationship? Are they happy to

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Speaker 6: come home at the end of the day, and all

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Speaker 6: of that obviously matters. Are there things you can do

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Speaker 6: to make your kids, you know, excel? The answer is

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Speaker 6: probably less than you think.

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Speaker 2: Wow, So, like the circumstances in your life probably have

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Speaker 2: a lot more sway than the way you're raised.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the point that she makes is like

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Speaker 1: it makes so much sense on you, hear right. It's like,

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Speaker 1: especially when you're younger, you spend so much time at school,

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Speaker 1: after school activity, hanging out with your friends. You don't

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Speaker 1: spend outside of weekends that much like one on one

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Speaker 1: time with your parents. There's a lot of time most

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Speaker 1: of the time you're not spending with your parents. You know,

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Speaker 1: most of the time you're spending when your parents you're sleeping.

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Speaker 1: So I think what she's saying is that, like not

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Speaker 1: parents don't matter at all. It's just like there's so

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Speaker 1: many things outside of the parents control that happen day

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Speaker 1: to day, and often when parents are thinking about how

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Speaker 1: successful their kids are going to be, they're only thinking

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Speaker 1: about the influence that they have and the things that

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Speaker 1: they are bestowing onto their kids. They're not thinking about

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Speaker 1: all the random things that can happen to them throughout

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Speaker 1: the day that can really put them on a certain

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Speaker 1: trajectory that they will have no say on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. As someone who's dating a British person,

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Speaker 2: we always joke about like whether our kids would have

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Speaker 2: in a British accent or an American accent, And we

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Speaker 2: did a little bit of reading. It turns out they're

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Speaker 2: going to have the accent of the kids at school,

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Speaker 2: but they're not. It doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Our accents don't matter exactly. Parents don't matter, kidding, But

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Speaker 1: for parents or people who are thinking about being parents,

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Speaker 1: there are a few things that Choosing points to in

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Speaker 1: their book that they can do to help kids help themselves.

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Speaker 1: So there's one study that showed that when researchers modeled

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Speaker 1: persistence while playing with toys in front of babies, that

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Speaker 1: may the babies more likely to be persistent.

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Speaker 6: So basically, the study had researchers working with like fifteen

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Speaker 6: month old babies, and the researcher would be holding a

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Speaker 6: toy and you know, trying to make it make this

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Speaker 6: sound and saying things like.

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Speaker 3: Huh, how do I do this?

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Speaker 6: And there would be a big button that you'd think

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Speaker 6: would make the music play, but they would hide the buttons,

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Speaker 6: so the researcher would eventually press this module that would

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Speaker 6: make the song come out. And then they would see

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Speaker 6: how long a baby, having watched a researcher persist, would

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Speaker 6: then persist in getting a different toy to do something else.

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Speaker 6: So it was basically seeing if modeling persistence had an

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Speaker 6: effect on how long babies tried to do something, and

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Speaker 6: the answer was they did see a real result, like

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Speaker 6: watching a researcher persist did lead babies to try harder.

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Speaker 3: The same researcher then went on. Her name is Julia Leonard.

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Speaker 3: She runs the.

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Speaker 6: Leonard Learning Lab at Yale. She got very interested in

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Speaker 6: autonomy and because we know that when parents do intervene

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Speaker 6: when like kids are doing a puzzle or something like that,

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Speaker 6: it's very deep motivating and kids tend to try less

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Speaker 6: hard the next time around when they're presented with a puzzle,

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Speaker 6: like even a few hours later. So she set up

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Speaker 6: this experiment at a children's museum in which four or

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Speaker 6: five year olds were in the dressing room of the

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Speaker 6: children's museum trying to put on hockey gear, which is

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Speaker 6: kind of elaborate, and in some of the dressing rooms

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Speaker 6: there was a sign that said, did you know that

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Speaker 6: putting on clothing can be learning? And in the other

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Speaker 6: rooms it just said dress up is fun, you know

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Speaker 6: that kind of thing. In the room where there was

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Speaker 6: no reminder that getting dressed could be learning, the parents

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Speaker 6: jumped in and intervened all the time. And in the

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Speaker 6: room where the parents were reminded that there was learning

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Speaker 6: to be done and even simple everyday tasks like putting

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Speaker 6: on shin guards, they waited a little bit longer. So

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Speaker 6: it was both a reinforcement of the idea that parents

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Speaker 6: jump in way too quickly and also got at the

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Speaker 6: idea that maybe if parents appreciated that there is learning

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Speaker 6: to be done in letting kids struggle with their tying

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Speaker 6: their shoelace or buckling their backpack. Parents do see value

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Speaker 6: in having their kids do puzzles and things like that,

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Speaker 6: but there's also a lot of value to be had

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Speaker 6: from learning the autonomy of just some small tasks that

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Speaker 6: you do daily and getting it right and getting it

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Speaker 6: right on your own.

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Speaker 1: So the researchers say you should try to find opportunities,

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Speaker 1: like when you're going to a grocery store, give your

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Speaker 1: kids a list and say, hey, go find these things

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Speaker 1: and don't be so hands on.

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Speaker 5: That makes sense. I mean, think about how many people

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Speaker 5: kind of seem to not be able to do anything,

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Speaker 5: oh or like have you know it's like no, it's right,

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Speaker 5: Like but like I'm think of simple thing like.

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Speaker 1: You're scared to talk on the phone.

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Speaker 4: Or yeah yeah, And like I can think of like

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Speaker 4: code I can just think of as a kid being

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Speaker 4: told like okay you can call this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you wanted a food. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: It's like you're just doing a small thing like that

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Speaker 4: that like you as a kid might be scared of.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 4: That then helps like have that little bit of confidence

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Speaker 4: that like, Okay, I'm I'm an actual person and I

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Speaker 4: can like do this thing that's scary or whatever.

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Speaker 1: So enough about our god bamn parents. Like I said earlier,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that sets this book apart is

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Speaker 1: Susan's focused on siblings. And one thing that you called

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Speaker 1: out in the book that is just it was so

431
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: obvious once you said it, but like I hadn't thought

432
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Speaker 1: about it until reading it was just like your siblings

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Speaker 1: see you in a different way than your parents do, Right,

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Speaker 1: your parents see you usually when you're performing for adults

435
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Speaker 1: to some degree, and your siblings see you out in

436
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Speaker 1: the world where you're with your friends, like they see

437
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Speaker 1: you in so many different environments. They see that code switching.

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Speaker 1: They know you at a deeper level than your parents do.

439
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Speaker 1: So you just talked through, you know, how you saw

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Speaker 1: that bit and your reporting with these families.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I can even tell you in my

442
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 6: own experience, if that's okay. I mean, I talk about

443
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,880
Speaker 6: how my brother, when I was fourteen years old, came

444
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 6: to my bedroom and said he was home for visiting

445
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,199
Speaker 6: from college, and he said to me, you know, you

446
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 6: should really join the high school newspaper, because he knew

447
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 6: I liked to write. Our high school newspaper had been disbanded,

448
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 6: and as so far as I was concerned, that was

449
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 6: that there wasn't no high school newspaper. And he really

450
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 6: just lectured me and was like, you should start a

451
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 6: high school newspaper.

452
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 3: It's terrible.

453
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 6: Democracy ties in darkness and your fellow students are apathetic.

454
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 3: And I was like, Jesus, all right, excuse my language.

455
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 6: But I was like fine, fine, And so I started

456
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 6: the high school newspaper up again. And I was exactly

457
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 6: where I was supposed to be. And somehow my brother

458
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 6: put it all together. And there's two reasons for it.

459
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 3: You know.

460
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 6: One is that he was a peer, so he knew

461
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 6: what a high school was supposed to look like. High

462
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 6: school was supposed to have a high school newspaper, and

463
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 6: there had been one when he was there.

464
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 3: That's not something that would have been top of mind

465
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 3: for my parents, you know. And he knew me.

466
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 6: He knew that I liked to write that I was

467
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 6: very curious, and I don't think my parents ever thought

468
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 6: of journalism as like something they would have necessarily wanted

469
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 6: me to pursue, because it wasn't really a secure path.

470
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 6: But my brother thought it would be cool, and so

471
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 6: I did it, and he thought it'd be cool for me.

472
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 3: He knew me well enough to know that I would

473
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,919
Speaker 3: really love it, and I mean I really found my calling.

474
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,879
Speaker 3: I mean almost right away. I was like, wow, he

475
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 3: really knows me well, yeah, and encouraged it.

476
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: And do you think you would have taken that same

477
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 1: advice if your parents would have given you, like said, hey,

478
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: why don't you know go say maybe the exact same thing.

479
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,120
Speaker 6: I don't I think I would have rolled my eyes

480
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 6: and said, you don't understand. It's not easy to get

481
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 6: a high school newspaper started. Julia Leonard, also the same

482
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 6: woman at the Learning Lab, has done research on from

483
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 6: whom do teenagers basically want to get advice and what

484
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 6: they The answer to that is people who know me well,

485
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 6: and people who understand the task at hand. And by

486
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 6: the time you're seventeen years old, they don't say their

487
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 6: parents know them well. It's their friends, their peers, and

488
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 6: their siblings, and siblings also understand the task at hand.

489
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 6: You know, there's a reason why kids say to their

490
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 6: parents all the time, what do they say, you don't understand?

491
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 6: But they don't. We don't We're not there, we don't

492
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 6: know what the dynamics are. So siblings really get it

493
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 6: in a way that parents don't. And I think they

494
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 6: can see the future in a way that parents can't.

495
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: So do y'all have any stories of your siblings influencing

496
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: you to do something that you feel like maybe you

497
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been as receptive to if your parents had

498
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: suggested it.

499
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 2: I mean the big one is right after college, I

500
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: wanted to go to LA and like kind of do

501
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 2: that whole film struggle, Like I already planned to sleep

502
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 2: on my good friend's couch at the time for a

503
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: couple of weeks until I found the job in the industry.

504
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 2: But my older brother, I think, was maybe concerned about

505
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: like the practicality of that and sent me quickly sent

506
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 2: me a link for an application to be an intern

507
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: at Business Insider, and I kind of just applied to

508
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: it on a whim, but they got back to me,

509
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: and then I ended up working there and moving to

510
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 2: New York. And obviously my entire life today can be

511
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 2: traced back to that decision. Butterfly, Yeah, I think this really.

512
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 2: I mean, like I wouldn't have met you, guys, I

513
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 2: wouldn't have met Mia, Like my entire life would have

514
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 2: been completely different La beautiful.

515
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 5: In a way.

516
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 4: Well, maybe you would have had a great life over there.

517
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 2: True, Yeah, maybe this is the timeline that fucking.

518
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 4: It could have been Timothy shall.

519
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 2: No, I would have been Timothy Shallame is like casting directly.

520
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: To whether or not we like to admit it, our

521
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: siblings do have an influence on us, and it does

522
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: have a name. It's called the siblings spillover effect.

523
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 6: We've always known that siblings tend to perform relatively similarly

524
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 6: in school, and that effect is known as the siblings

525
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 6: spillover effect. But what the cause of it is.

526
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 3: Was sort of unknown, but parenting was a genetics was

527
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 3: something else.

528
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 6: So this researcher did a really interesting study in which

529
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 6: she looked at kids who were old for their grade,

530
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 6: meaning because of when their birthday fell, they happened to

531
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 6: be on the older side of their grade. And we

532
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 6: know that kids who are old for their grade do

533
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 6: better because they're developmentally farther along. Teachers like them better,

534
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 6: they can sit still more, they just have a better

535
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 6: experience of school, and they're cognitively more developed.

536
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 3: So if you're one of the oldest kids in.

537
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 6: Your grade, you have this you know, by chance, by

538
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 6: the chance of when your birthday falls, you have this

539
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 6: academic advantage.

540
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 3: And what the researcher found was that the younger siblings of.

541
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 6: Those kids, regardless of whether they were old young for

542
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 6: their grade, middle, they also did better. So they were

543
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 6: somehow benefiting from the fact that their older sibling was

544
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 6: doing better in school. And we don't know if it's

545
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 6: that the older sibling then felt good about school and

546
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 6: made school.

547
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 3: Seem positive or tutored them.

548
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,360
Speaker 6: But we just know that there's this siblings spillover effect

549
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 6: in which kids whose older siblings are doing better also

550
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 6: do better.

551
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: And to Titus our conversation earlier, there are some examples

552
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 1: in a book where she profiles a family where the

553
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: older sibling goes to a college and then the other

554
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: siblings follow in their footsteps. So she profiles this one

555
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 1: family called the Mergias, whose parents were from Mexico and

556
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: the kids grew up to be really successful federal judges,

557
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: civil rights activists.

558
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 6: With the Mrgias, what you see is this network effect

559
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 6: where the oldest sibling is the first one in his

560
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 6: family to go to college.

561
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 3: His parents would have been perfectly happy if.

562
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 6: He'd gone to work at the plant, I think, but

563
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 6: as they as the father and that family did. But

564
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 6: he wanted to go to college because his friends were

565
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 6: going to college and because he was already there. First

566
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 6: of all, he set the expectation for the younger siblings,

567
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 6: but he also made life so much easier for them

568
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 6: because he understood how financial aid worked. He helped them

569
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 6: navigate which classes to take and how he got.

570
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 3: Them into the fraternity.

571
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 6: So it was something that was hugely influential for them,

572
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 6: and he didn't have the benefit of that, and you know,

573
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 6: he was the trailblazer.

574
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: And she points to as another example, Michelle Obama and

575
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: her older brother Craig Robinson.

576
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,719
Speaker 6: Craig Robinson got recruited to play basketball. You know, they

577
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 6: did his parent They were working class people.

578
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 3: They weren't like you know what, Craig.

579
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 6: Princeton's the place where you don't know, Princeton came to

580
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 6: him because he was such a superb student.

581
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 3: And athlete, and we know obviously that helps with recruitment.

582
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 6: So Michelle thought, well, if he's going to Princeton, I

583
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 6: can go to Princeton. I know, I know my ability,

584
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 6: I know his ability, and if he can do it,

585
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 6: I can do it. But the guidance counselor said to her, Michelle,

586
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 6: I don't think you're Princeton material. So I mean, really awful,

587
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 6: because we certainly know she was Princeton material, and she

588
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 6: ignored the guidance counselor and obviously thrived there. So if

589
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 6: her brother hadn't gone and the guidance counselor said to her,

590
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 6: you're not Princeton material, she.

591
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 3: Quite likely would have been like okay.

592
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 6: But she knew otherwise because she had this close family

593
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,959
Speaker 6: member who made it there, and she knew herself and

594
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 6: she knew him well enough to know if he could

595
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,239
Speaker 6: do it, she could do it.

596
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: So siblings really matter.

597
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting, my I mean, my older brother

598
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,239
Speaker 2: went to Ohio State on a bunch of scholarships, and

599
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: then I went to Ohio State, and then my younger

600
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: sister went to Ohio State.

601
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, and for me, my brother deaf, Like, I probably

602
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 4: wouldn't have even thought about going to AU if it

603
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 4: wasn't for my brother. He was like big politics junkie,

604
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 4: so DC made sense for him. And then it was

605
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 4: just like my experience seeing the campus and all that

606
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 4: that drew me to applying there when it was time

607
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 4: for me to look at school.

608
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: All right, So we're gonna take a quick break and

609
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: when we come back, we're gonna talk a little bit

610
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: about birth order. We're back. So when it comes to siblings,

611
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: one thing that people love love to talk about is

612
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: birth order. Are you the oldest sibling, a middlesembing you and

613
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: a youngest sibling? People say that they could just tell

614
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: based on people's personalities. All right, And Susan looks into

615
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: some of the research around this.

616
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 6: So there's this known fact which is that the oldest

617
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 6: child in families tends to have the academic edge, and

618
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 6: that holds up in all kinds of studies.

619
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: It's really consistent.

620
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 6: And the thinking of that is that the oldest child

621
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 6: and a family is the only one who is ever

622
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 6: an only child, so they have the most enrichment from

623
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 6: the parents and they have that single minded focus. And

624
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 6: then as they get older, they also do a little

625
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 6: bit of instruction of the younger siblings, you know, and

626
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 6: that reinforces their knowledge and that's also kind of a

627
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 6: sharpening of cognition, and you see it more and more

628
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 6: as they get older and older, like when the kids

629
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 6: are all in school. So that means, okay, on average,

630
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 6: the oldest child is the most academic. What you then

631
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 6: see with younger children is that they're overrepresented in participation

632
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 6: in sports and in elite sports. And the thinking is

633
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 6: that this must be because the younger kids see that

634
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 6: the older child has their lane, which is school, and

635
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 6: they as a younger child, are now going to try

636
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 6: to excel in some other way, and certainly in America,

637
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 6: that is often sports. So in the Groff family, Sarah

638
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 6: True was the youngest of three. Her brother Adam went

639
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 6: on to become like a serial healthcare entrepreneur MDPHD.

640
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 3: Her sister, Lauren Groff.

641
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 6: Is now this very esteemed and admired novelist, and they

642
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 6: were terrific students, and even though I'm sure Sarah was

643
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 6: a great student, she decided that she could not keep up,

644
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 6: and she made a concerted decision that she was going

645
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 6: to own something that her sister did not care about

646
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 6: that much, which was swimming and sports, and she just

647
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 6: knew that she could excel there because even though her

648
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 6: sister was a tremendous athlete and even participated in the

649
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 6: Junior Olympics, Lauren didn't care.

650
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 3: That wasn't her main drive. She had other dreams.

651
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 6: And so Sarah went on to become an Olympic triathlete

652
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 6: and world class ironman competitor.

653
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 3: And she remembers making a really concerted decision when she

654
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 3: was young.

655
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: Would you say that your older siblings were like the

656
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: best academically?

657
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: Yes, uh, yep, better than me for sure. I mean

658
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: he was like validict I think he was a valedictorian

659
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: in high school. But he was also one of those

660
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,239
Speaker 2: freaks that were also good at like athletics and like

661
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 2: all around just in all the clubs and all that

662
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. So there I really had no.

663
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, are taken. It's funny, you know, with my age

664
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: gap with my brother, I definitely am the more academic

665
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: and he's definitely more athletic.

666
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 2: But did you guys both start sports at the same age?

667
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: So interesting now you asked that, So come back to that.

668
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: There's this study that Susan sits in the book of

669
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: youth soccer players training for the US women's national team.

670
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: Three fourths of the people surveyed in this you know,

671
00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: really competitive program were younger siblings. And there's a couple

672
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: different theories as to why that is. One of them

673
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: is what you just brought up, which is that the

674
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: younger sibling is going to start sports earlier because the

675
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: older siblings are playing those sports already. Right, So you

676
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: may not think to give a two year old a

677
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: soccer ball, but if the older sibling is playing soccer

678
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: and a younger sibling is going to see that and

679
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: be like, oh, I got to play that. So if

680
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: you have an older sibling that does play sports, they're

681
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: teaching you stuff at at a younger age of here's

682
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: the right way to do it, so you haven't advantage here.

683
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: So one thing she points out to where we have,

684
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: you know, the spillover effect. We're kind of following directly

685
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: in the footsteps, and then you have this thing that's

686
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: happening where it's like, Okay, you're doing that thing, I'm

687
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: gonna do a different thing. Obviously, family with more resources

688
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: is more able to have their siblings do completely different things, right,

689
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: Like if you have a family of very little resources,

690
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be like, let's go to soccer and

691
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: play baseball, and like this kid is going to play

692
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: to cello, right, It's like everybody's going and doing the

693
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: same thing.

694
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 6: Well, we've realized also is that siblings function differently in

695
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 6: advantaged families versus disadvantaged families. You see more differentiation in

696
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 6: very well resourced families because the parents can afford to

697
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 6: drive one to flute lessons and take the other one

698
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 6: to tennis across town, and in less advantaged families, the

699
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 6: kids spend more time together because maybe the parents are

700
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 6: working long hours or because the parents aren't investing in

701
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 6: all of these extracurriculars that are that take them away

702
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 6: from the home, so the sibling spillover effects are more

703
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 6: powerful in disadvantaged families. And even this well known idea

704
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 6: that the oldest child has the greatest cognitive advantages, you

705
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 6: don't see that in families for whom English is a

706
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 6: second language, because the first kid is just trying to

707
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 6: figure out what's going on, apparently, and then the second

708
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 6: child benefits from the fact that the older child now

709
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 6: was fluent in that language, so they kind of get

710
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 6: acclimated into the culture a little bit more easily, and

711
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 6: the parents, by the second child have figured out how

712
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 6: the system works a little bit better. So I think

713
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 6: they're probably you know, when parents immigrate, like the older child,

714
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 6: if you know, can be the one who's struggling the

715
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 6: most because the parents are struggling so much at that time.

716
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 4: Very interesting, So that's interesting because it's like a micro generation. Yeah,

717
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 4: so like you might all be three years apart, but

718
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 4: like a lot can happen. It's just like a family

719
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 4: moving here, it's going to be harder for them than

720
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 4: obviously you know, their kids and then follows and it's

721
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 4: the same for even just the siblings.

722
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, one of the families she profiles in the

723
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: book The Chen's this really comes out because the older

724
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,280
Speaker 1: sister is like, you know, all of the older kids

725
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,919
Speaker 1: are the family owns a Chinese restaurant, but they don't

726
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: speak English, so the kids are the ones like talking

727
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: to the landlord and like negotiating bills, right, Like they

728
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: have this sort of like they got to grow up

729
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: real quick. Yeah, you know, they're working at the restaurant

730
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: basically as kids. So it's like, yeah, then they have

731
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: the youngest other kids named Devan has this like huge

732
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: advantage because they've done all this groundwork. So I did

733
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: ask Susan, you know, if you had to pick, after

734
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: doing all this research and looking at all these studies,

735
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: who is more influential parents or siblings?

736
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 6: I think that what I usually say is that parental

737
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,720
Speaker 6: effects are overestimated by the general population and sibling effects

738
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 6: are underestimated.

739
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 3: I don't know that they.

740
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 6: Have more of an effect than parents, but I do

741
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 6: think that siblings are more integral to helping each other

742
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 6: find their paths again because of this idea that they're

743
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 6: occupying the same world, so they can see the future

744
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 6: in a way that parents can't, and they can provide

745
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 6: connections and introductions and expand the horizons in a way

746
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 6: that I mean, you know, in most families, parents kids

747
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 6: don't have parents who are incredibly well connected and can

748
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 6: make introductions. But if your sibling, if your sibling is succeeding,

749
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 6: you know, beyond the station from which they came, then

750
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 6: they can help you along in a way. And so

751
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 6: I think of it as like the parents often in

752
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 6: the families that I wrote about, they kind of sent

753
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 6: like an arrow of ambition into the air with some

754
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 6: kind of energy, or they'd set some example.

755
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: Of having just succeeded or overcome.

756
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 6: A lot of the parents were kind of quiet overcomers,

757
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 6: extraordinary people who weren't famous but had lived tremendous lives.

758
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 6: And then the siblings helped direct the arrow, they helped

759
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 6: it find its direction. So, you know, I think they're

760
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 6: very practical things that siblings can do to help each

761
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 6: other along.

762
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: So now, after hearing out our research, what are your thoughts.

763
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: I feel more strongly that it's my siblings who influenced

764
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 2: or impacted my life. But I do I feel like

765
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 2: I learned a lot more about how exactly, whereas before

766
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: I'd just been like, well, yeah, he's they're my siblings.

767
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 2: Like I see them all the time, obviously naturally influenced

768
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,240
Speaker 2: and impacted by them, but it was really interesting learning

769
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 2: exactly like the ripple effect and how they can how

770
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: they lead as an example sometimes.

771
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: Especially in your you know, upbringing, like you're saying, being

772
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: a first gen yeah, you know, and a lot of

773
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: the like you're saying, cultural things.

774
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, in a way, I think I was set up

775
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 2: to be more impacted by my siblings than the average person.

776
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that comes out in her

777
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: book too, where you know, the families that she profiles,

778
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: which our first gen, the siblings are really really paving

779
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: the way.

780
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 4: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah for me, if

781
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 4: I had to pick, i'd still stay say my parents.

782
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: Were the more influential.

783
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 4: But then it's easy to point to all these different things,

784
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 4: whether it's the specific college or you know, or I

785
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 4: would have done better academically if my brother didn't exist, you.

786
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: Know, gonna taken all the resources exactly so well, even

787
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: the lanes that you decided.

788
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 4: And things like that. It's like, yeah, so that could

789
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 4: have just changed my trajectory as far as you know,

790
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 4: maybe I would have gone down a different career path

791
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 4: or that sort of thing.

792
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: Maybe you would have been more of a politics john exactly.

793
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 4: I could have been maybe the Democratic nominee for mayor

794
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 4: you know, my brother existed, So that's fine, you know,

795
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 4: I love them.

796
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. It makes me think about how you parent your

797
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: kids to interact with one another, Yeah, and the importance

798
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: of that, and like making sure that they have good relationships,

799
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: that they support one another, that you know, because they

800
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: do play such a big influence. It's not just like

801
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: a random other kid in the house. Yeah, And also

802
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: kind of makes me feel a lot better about, like

803
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: as a parent, not being so stressed out about the

804
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: prospect of like how every little thing that I do

805
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: is going to completely change my kid's life if I

806
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 1: forget to say, you know, thank you one time, like

807
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: they're gonna me talking about that what they're doing is

808
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: thirty years from now.

809
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, But thinking about the spillover effect specifically, it does

810
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 2: seem like, you know, you really just want to nail

811
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: that first.

812
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, get that first one, really good, focus on that,

813
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 4: and then you're and then you know, then you're done.

814
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, you give up one parent thing after you get

815
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: that first one set up.

816
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: It kind of sounds like it go one vacation.

817
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, hey, we got the first kids set up and

818
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: where I.

819
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 4: See you touch, thank you.

820
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 6: Touch, thank So.

821
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: That's it for our episode this week, Thanks once again

822
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 1: to Susan Dominus. Her new book, The Family Dynamic is

823
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: out everywhere and now we'll link to it in the

824
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: show notes. There was this great fight that I just

825
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: couldn't find a space for any episode about parents talking

826
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: to their kids about STEM classes that I'll include in

827
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: the newsletter. Most of such things produced by many fidel

828
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if Daman and me Devin Joseph. The

829
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: theme song is by Manny. Edition of music for this

830
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: episode by Zeno. Reminder will be out for a few weeks,

831
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: but check out our instagram. No such thing on show.

832
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: Subscribe to our newsletter and you'll be the first to

833
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: hear about when we're coming back. All right, Bye,