Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we've decided
Speaker 1: it's time to stop discriminating against men from here on out.
Speaker 1: This is a sports podcast, and by sports, of course,
Speaker 1: I mean men's sports. It's Tuesday, April first, Yup, April first,
Speaker 1: and on today's show, we'll be talking to women's hoops
Speaker 1: coaching legend Kathy Delaney Smith about her forty seasons leading
Speaker 1: the team at Harvard their legendary sixteen seed over one
Speaker 1: seed tournament upset, incorporating meditation into her coaching, and how
Speaker 1: to apply her act as if attitude, plus locking up
Speaker 1: a ticket to Italy, deciding whether to go pro, and
Speaker 1: a big announcement about having nothing to announce. It's all
Speaker 1: coming up right after this Welcome back slices. Here's what
Speaker 1: you need to know today, starting with college hoops first,
Speaker 1: we're recording this before the final Elite Eight games between
Speaker 1: USC and Yukon and TCU and Texas on Monday night
Speaker 1: to make sure we get you all caught up on
Speaker 1: those contests, plus the Final four picture later this week.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, a few players still have big decisions
Speaker 1: to make with the WNBA draft looming, and that includes
Speaker 1: LSU's Flage Johnson. After LSU lost to UCLA on Sunday,
Speaker 1: the junior guard said she wasn't sure if she'd be
Speaker 1: entering the WNBA Draft this spring. While Johnson still has
Speaker 1: another year of college eligibility, she turns twenty two this November,
Speaker 1: meaning she's eligible to enter the draft this year despite
Speaker 1: not having completed four years of college. Johnson says she
Speaker 1: plans to talk to both her family and LSU coach
Speaker 1: Kim Mulki before making the decision. Elsewhere in college hoops,
Speaker 1: Iowa state star Audie Crooks announced that she isn't going anywhere.
Speaker 1: After the number eleven Cyclones were ousted by number six
Speaker 1: Michigan in the first round of March Madness. Lots of
Speaker 1: fans wondered whether the six foot three sophomore might enter
Speaker 1: the transfer portal, but on Sunday, Crooks put those concerns
Speaker 1: to rest, writing on Instagram, quote, Dear Cyclone Nation, thank
Speaker 1: you to all the coaches and fans that have supported
Speaker 1: me on this journey after much thought and consideration, Quit
Speaker 1: asking I am right where I want to be. Let's
Speaker 1: run it back hashtag loyal Forever true end quote, and
Speaker 1: Crook's teammate Addie Brown will be right there with her
Speaker 1: writing on Instagram quote write where I need to be
Speaker 1: end quote to the PWHL. The Montreal Victoire announced on
Speaker 1: Monday that goaltender and Renee Deben has been placed on
Speaker 1: long term injury reserve. Debn suffered a lower body injury
Speaker 1: in a March eighteenth game against the Boston Fleet. General
Speaker 1: manager Danielle Sovajo expressed optimism that Debn could be back
Speaker 1: before the end of the season, saying in a statement,
Speaker 1: the results from the medical exams following her injury are
Speaker 1: encouraging and we expect her to return in the near future.
Speaker 1: This type of injury will require weekly, if not daily,
Speaker 1: follow ups. Montreal has already clinched a spot in the
Speaker 1: PWHL playoffs and is currently on top of the league
Speaker 1: standings among qualified goalies. Deben leads the league this season
Speaker 1: in both say percentage and goals against average. To snowboarding,
Speaker 1: Chloe Kim won her third halfpipe World Championship title of
Speaker 1: the weekend to mathematically clinch a spot on her third
Speaker 1: Olympic team. The two time Olympic gold medalist has the
Speaker 1: chance to become the first snowboarder to win three straight
Speaker 1: gold medals at next winners Olympics in Italy. The world
Speaker 1: title puts a nice button on Kim's season, which also
Speaker 1: saw her become the first woman to land a double
Speaker 1: cork ten eighty in competition and win yet another X
Speaker 1: Games title. To the US Canada Trade War of the
Speaker 1: soccer variety, the Chicago Stars announced that the club is
Speaker 1: loaning forward Sarah Griffith to the Calgary Wild of the
Speaker 1: Canadian Northern Super League aka the NSL. Griffith, who hails
Speaker 1: from Chicago, was drafted by the Stars in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: two and appeared in seven matches for the club last year.
Speaker 1: Now she'll help the NFL launch its inaugural season. Related
Speaker 1: if anyone knows any podcast host loan programs that would
Speaker 1: take this Chicagoan up north for a couple of years,
Speaker 1: hit me up that might become necessary. Finally, one last
Speaker 1: piece of news. After fifty plus years in basketball coaching,
Speaker 1: including thirty nine c seas as head coach at DePaul
Speaker 1: University with a seven hundred and eighty six and four
Speaker 1: oh five record, the legendary Doug Bruno is stepping down.
Speaker 1: He'll assume a role of special assistant to the vice
Speaker 1: president slash director of athletics for women's basketball. Bruno first
Speaker 1: coached De Paul in nineteen seventy six, left two years
Speaker 1: later to coach the Chicago Hustle of the Women's Professional
Speaker 1: Basketball League until nineteen eighty, and then, after some time
Speaker 1: in the men's game, returned to De Paul women's basketball
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty eight, where he was the head coach
Speaker 1: until his announced retirement at the end of this season.
Speaker 1: He's the winningest coach in De Paul hoop's history, passing
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame men's coach Ray Meyer back in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: He was an assistant for Team USA from twenty nine
Speaker 1: to sixteen, helping them to their fifth and sixth straight
Speaker 1: Olympic Golds in twenty twelve and twenty sixteen, and his
Speaker 1: Doug Bruno girls basketball camps were game changers for generations
Speaker 1: of Hoopers, including yours truly, said Yukon head coach Gino
Speaker 1: Oriama of Bruno, quote, there haven't been a lot of
Speaker 1: people in the history of women's basketball that have given
Speaker 1: as much to the game as he has end quote.
Speaker 1: Congrats on a hell of a runt coach. We got
Speaker 1: to take a quick break when we come back. It's
Speaker 1: Kathy Delaney Smith. We caught up with her last week
Speaker 1: ahead of the Sweet sixteen joining us now. She was
Speaker 1: a legendary high school coach before spending forty seasons as
Speaker 1: head coach of the women's basketball team at Harvard University.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety eight, she led the Crimson to the
Speaker 1: first and still only number sixteen up set of a
Speaker 1: number one seed in the NCAA Women's Basketball Tournament. Owner
Speaker 1: of over six hundred wins, the first woman named the
Speaker 1: Massachusetts Basketball Coaches Hall of Fame, and the namesake of
Speaker 1: an annual national award presented by her Hoopstats to the
Speaker 1: top D one mid major head coach, the Kathy Delaney
Speaker 1: Smith Mid Major Coach of the Year Award. The author
Speaker 1: of GrITT and Wit, Empowering Lives and Leaders, a cancer survivor,
Speaker 1: and a big part of the reason Harvard women's hoops
Speaker 1: is seventy eight and fourteen all time against my alma mater, Cornell. Woof.
Speaker 1: It's Kathy Delaney Smith. Hi, Kathy, and thank you very
Speaker 1: little for that.
Speaker 2: I'm thrilled beyond and I'm sorry about Cornell.
Speaker 1: Man. I tried to find a good stat to get
Speaker 1: back at you with, and there aren't very many. They
Speaker 1: have a one in forty five away record against Harvard
Speaker 1: oh out.
Speaker 2: However, Danis Smith, who did twenty eight or nine or
Speaker 2: thirty years there, one of my favorite tremendous coach, so
Speaker 2: you know I loved her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say we did our best. I want
Speaker 1: to go back to the beginning, Kathy, because I just
Speaker 1: love your origin story. You grew up in Newton, mass
Speaker 1: You became the first female basketball player in Massachusetts history
Speaker 1: to score a thousand points. But then you went to
Speaker 1: college at Bridgewater State, which at the time didn't have
Speaker 1: varsity basketball for women, so you competed on the synchronized
Speaker 1: swimming team. Of course, it was the only competitive option
Speaker 1: for female swimmers at the time. But this is important
Speaker 1: because then you wanted to become a swim coach, and
Speaker 1: you were looking to become a swim coach when you
Speaker 1: stumbled into coaching basketball. So tell us how you ended
Speaker 1: up coaching at Westwood High which is just a few
Speaker 1: miles away from where you.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I did go to Bridgewater with superintendent's son,
Speaker 2: John Tobin and had a mad crush on him. Just
Speaker 2: throw that out there, and I was in my interview
Speaker 2: trying desperately to get the job because they had a
Speaker 2: brand new pool this yeah, at westwod High School, and
Speaker 2: I want to just start their swim program. And the
Speaker 2: superintendent said, you know, can you coach basketball and win?
Speaker 2: Our team is not good? His daughter played for the team.
Speaker 2: He wasn't that good either, and that's the first time
Speaker 2: I've ever publicly said that. But he said, can you win?
Speaker 2: And I said, yes, of course I can. And then
Speaker 2: I because I wanted the job, and I got the job,
Speaker 2: and I was zero and eleven that first year, so
Speaker 2: I guess I yes, I didn't do a great jo.
Speaker 2: I didn't read enough basketball books. I hadn't played, so
Speaker 2: I played six player for my mother. Can't dribble. You know,
Speaker 2: it's not even the same game.
Speaker 1: Right, That's what I was going to say. A lot
Speaker 1: of people don't even know that it started out as
Speaker 1: six on six for women's without dribbling. And you still
Speaker 1: that's where you got your thousand points.
Speaker 2: Yes, and my mother was my coach, So yeah, everyone
Speaker 2: gets mad when I'm not proud of that, although I
Speaker 2: should be, but because I can shoot. Yeah, but you know,
Speaker 2: it's not real basketball.
Speaker 1: It's very different. So you you played six on six,
Speaker 1: but now you're coaching five on five. You mentioned you
Speaker 1: went oh and eleven in the first season, but then
Speaker 1: over the next eleven years you led that team to
Speaker 1: six undefeated seasons, including a one hundred game win streak,
Speaker 1: a two hundred and four and thirty one record, and
Speaker 1: a state championship. So how do we get from I
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm doing to that? How did you
Speaker 1: teach yourself to be a great coach?
Speaker 2: I read every book and went to every clinic I
Speaker 2: could go to. And the reason I wrote the book
Speaker 2: Brittin Went was because you know, there are so many
Speaker 2: women who fight there having a consistent level of confidence,
Speaker 2: and so my story is really, if I can do it,
Speaker 2: anyone could do it. So and I just you know,
Speaker 2: you have to work hard, and you have to have
Speaker 2: a passion, and you have to love what you're doing.
Speaker 2: And I did. I just love basketball, and I retire.
Speaker 2: I was undefeated in swimming, by the way, I went
Speaker 2: seven years and never lost a meat WOA, And I
Speaker 2: would say I had great divers that I didn't teach,
Speaker 2: so I would probably can't take credit for it, but Nonetheless,
Speaker 2: I am undefeated in swimming and fell in love with basketball.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as a coacher saying in swimming, yeah, as a coach. Well,
Speaker 1: you know you're talking about the book. We're going to
Speaker 1: get more into the book later, but I think that
Speaker 1: what you're getting at is super important, especially as we're
Speaker 1: looking at numbers of women coaches or women stepping up
Speaker 1: for opportunities that have been either held predominantly by men
Speaker 1: or that are now being taken over by men now
Speaker 1: that there's more pay in the space. Do you have
Speaker 1: a message for women who feel like they have to
Speaker 1: be an expert or they have to know it all
Speaker 1: before saying yes, you're a prime example of someone who
Speaker 1: said yes and then said okay, I'll figure it out.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You just described, unfortunately, a characteristic of women that's
Speaker 2: very widespread and almost a disease. I coached at Harvard
Speaker 2: for forty years, and the women I coached, we you know,
Speaker 2: a WHUSU. They're brilliant, and yet even in my last
Speaker 2: four or five years, my student athletes would say, sometimes
Speaker 2: we're afraid to raise our hand in class because we
Speaker 2: don't have the right answer, and we're not going to
Speaker 2: raise our hand unless we're perfect, and you're surrounded by
Speaker 2: men who really don't even care if they're close to
Speaker 2: right as long as they're heard. And so you know,
Speaker 2: not that I want to swing the pendulum all the
Speaker 2: way to the way men are, but women have to
Speaker 2: understand perfect is boring. And that's a chapter in my book. No.
Speaker 1: I got to read that one.
Speaker 2: When we learned to stop trying to be perfect, We
Speaker 2: learned we can live life and then you can be great. Yeah, great,
Speaker 2: gro faster.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been I think the universe is sending me
Speaker 1: a message because I am been hammered with this for
Speaker 1: the last like about four months. Is like this repetition
Speaker 1: of like do bigger, swing bigger, try bigger, so that
Speaker 1: if you fail, it's totally fine, but at least you
Speaker 1: know where the limit is. So many of us are
Speaker 1: so worried about failing that we don't even find out
Speaker 1: where our limits are. That's such a good mess. I
Speaker 1: got to read your book. Okay, while you were at Westwood,
Speaker 1: you filed four Title nine lawsuits while you were a
Speaker 1: coach there. This is inspiring and instructive because I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people feel like that's so hard to
Speaker 1: do from within a space, but you challenged the school
Speaker 1: to do better while remaining in good standing there and
Speaker 1: keeping your job. How did you do that well?
Speaker 2: Because I was glueless and passionate, and I was raised
Speaker 2: to believe, you know, women and men are the same
Speaker 2: and you can do anything. I've never been one who's
Speaker 2: been funneled into a stereotype. I've never been very traditional.
Speaker 2: So I got to Westwood and the uniforms were awful,
Speaker 2: the budgets were awful, the practice times are awful, and
Speaker 2: I was shocked. I was like, what's going on here?
Speaker 2: And Title nine had just passed, so I, you know,
Speaker 2: I never really thought about the consequences to me. And
Speaker 2: people said you'll never get a job and everyone will
Speaker 2: hate you, and it didn't really matter to me. It
Speaker 2: was it was the right thing for us to have
Speaker 2: practice times and not where the field hockey kills for
Speaker 2: the basketball.
Speaker 1: Team makes no sense, right, no, so and it.
Speaker 2: Worked and they know it went. I got everything I wanted,
Speaker 2: all right.
Speaker 1: The important thing, too, is it's not just that it
Speaker 1: was the right thing, but the legal thing. And we
Speaker 1: need to use Title nine as long as we have it,
Speaker 1: and we need to use it more than we are
Speaker 1: to make sure people are in compliance, because it is
Speaker 1: the law. You actually coached my friend Jackie McMullen, who
Speaker 1: went on to be not just a great hooper but
Speaker 1: a legendary sports writer and an opponent of mine for
Speaker 1: years on around the Horn, who gave me great advice
Speaker 1: and mentored me in a lot of ways. So what
Speaker 1: was Jackie like as a high school kid? Could you
Speaker 1: see future Jackie in there?
Speaker 2: Yes, Jackie? So Jackie wrote the Fluid in my book.
Speaker 2: Yeah it I cried when I read it. I mean
Speaker 2: because I think her writing is off the charts and
Speaker 2: her memory is very different than my memory. But like
Speaker 2: she's she's so special. She's a pioneer. She's broken through Glassdale,
Speaker 2: as everyone knows. And I like to finally say, she
Speaker 2: didn't know how to write to I coached her. That's
Speaker 2: but so far that's work for We have stayed very
Speaker 2: very close friends. And she's just she's a fighter. She's passionate,
Speaker 2: she's confident, yet inside she sort of still deals with
Speaker 2: what we all deal with is some insecurities on this level.
Speaker 2: Although you know, and she's just such a hard worker
Speaker 2: that you know she's gonna make gold out of anything.
Speaker 2: She tried. That's just that good.
Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated by this because there are a lot
Speaker 1: of ways when I look back to myself as a
Speaker 1: young person and I'm like, oh, there, I was already
Speaker 1: me in so many ways, right, you know, I was
Speaker 1: to your point about title nine. I was petitioning my
Speaker 1: school to be able to take pass failed gym before
Speaker 1: school because I was achieving all the things that the
Speaker 1: law required of gym class by my three varsity sports,
Speaker 1: and it was taking up a class in my school
Speaker 1: day that I wanted for band and course, and I
Speaker 1: already didn't have a lunch and why am I going
Speaker 1: to pe class? And so I filed report with the
Speaker 1: school and demanded that I should be allowed to take
Speaker 1: it before like all this Like I'm like, who is
Speaker 1: that kid? It's me And I was always in there.
Speaker 1: But I wonder how often you're coaching and you instead
Speaker 1: see someone maybe you're delighted to find that they become
Speaker 1: a very different person later in life. How often do
Speaker 1: the kids you coached in high school come back and
Speaker 1: you're like, you are so different than the kid that
Speaker 1: you were.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I I was one of those people
Speaker 2: that just loved my I was loved being a high
Speaker 2: school teacher and coach and never even wanted to go
Speaker 2: to college. And then I arrived at Harvard. And I
Speaker 2: grew up near Harvard and had this really ugly opinion
Speaker 2: of Harvard, like they're entitled, they're white, they're rich.
Speaker 1: They're they're not Cornell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they don't like, they're not good to women
Speaker 2: and blah blah, and they're not quite nice. But it
Speaker 2: was the opposite of that. And so the women I
Speaker 2: got at Harvard, probably one of my greatest satisfactions is
Speaker 2: they changed so much from when they're freshmen too when
Speaker 2: they're seniors. I was convinced to write a book. I'm
Speaker 2: not a writer. I didn't think I had anything to say,
Speaker 2: But here I have all these forty years of fifty
Speaker 2: one years, including high school, of women that have just
Speaker 2: they're a WHOSU in this country professionally, and they will
Speaker 2: tell you a lot of what they learned and accomplished
Speaker 2: came from playing basketball and learning life skills. You know,
Speaker 2: success and failure when you're playing a sport.
Speaker 1: From you, you could say it from you.
Speaker 2: Well, I thought everybody did what I did. So that's
Speaker 2: why I didn't want to write a book. I'm like,
Speaker 2: every program, every coach does this. This is not true,
Speaker 2: I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about Harvard. They come calling, they're looking
Speaker 1: for a new head women's basketball coach. I want to
Speaker 1: hear how indoor tennis courts led to you spending forty
Speaker 1: years in Cambridge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is where I just came from to this.
Speaker 2: My reason for living is tennis. I'm just saying, not
Speaker 2: synchronized swimming and not even basketball. Yeah, And I was
Speaker 2: paying an on the future salary into a courts were
Speaker 2: just really expensive. So I didn't have any aspirations to
Speaker 2: be a college coach. So I got invited because I
Speaker 2: was the local successful coach. And when they invited me
Speaker 2: to apply, I'm like, Harvard, No, do they even have
Speaker 2: a basketball team? That's what I got, And so then
Speaker 2: I went over. I was guilted into you at least
Speaker 2: need to go on your interview, and in one day's
Speaker 2: time I fell in love with Harvard. I just the
Speaker 2: energy on the campus, the student athletes I met. I
Speaker 2: then after a seven eight hour day of interviews, I
Speaker 2: wanted the job so bad and I was the only
Speaker 2: person candidate who didn't coach college or play college. So
Speaker 2: I didn't think I had a show, and I filed lawsuits,
Speaker 2: so I didn't think I had a chance in heck
Speaker 2: of getting the job, and I was surprised when I
Speaker 2: got it.
Speaker 1: But you buried the lead during that visit. You spotted
Speaker 1: the any tennis courts and you were like, oh, I
Speaker 1: could use the for free. I'm in. Although the perks
Speaker 1: of the job are a lot of times the big draw.
Speaker 1: Of course it's another job, but the free tennis courts.
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Let's start with the big, the big one.
Speaker 1: Your ninety eight team, the first number sixteen seed to
Speaker 1: upset a number one seed, and the men's or women's
Speaker 1: NCAA tournament still the only time it's happened on the
Speaker 1: women's side. You beat Stanford seventy one sixty seven. And
Speaker 1: before we get to that game, I heard you say
Speaker 1: in an interview that that ninety eight win actually happened
Speaker 1: as a result of a foundation that you built in
Speaker 1: the ninety seven tournament. Can you tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Yes, when we went to we were paired up with
Speaker 2: North Carolina, and in my opinion, in lots of people's opinion,
Speaker 2: North Carolina might have been the all athletic team of
Speaker 2: the world of the country that year, the only team
Speaker 2: that I felt we didn't match up that well with.
Speaker 1: Marion jones the black guard. That's so unfair.
Speaker 2: It was kind of fast, yeah, a little plink guard
Speaker 2: not quite as fast, and I think we were down
Speaker 2: eighteen zero twenty zero. My poor point guard was trying
Speaker 2: to get it across half court past Marian Joneson was
Speaker 2: not doing a very good job, and she kept looking
Speaker 2: over Kathy call the time up, and I turned away
Speaker 2: because I didn't really have any suggestions for her. It
Speaker 2: was like a near impossible situation. But surprisingly enough, at halftime,
Speaker 2: coaches gather up inside the locker room. My team goes
Speaker 2: in to talk about strategies to get better make adjustments
Speaker 2: in the second half, and I overheard my team truly, truly,
Speaker 2: truly believing that they could beat North Carolina. Now I
Speaker 2: think I can win every game I coach. That was
Speaker 2: one I may have hesitated on. I was so astounded
Speaker 2: by their confidence and very proud that I had given
Speaker 2: them this ability to believe in themselves. So we coaches
Speaker 2: went in and I didn't say a whole lot, and
Speaker 2: I said, let's not wreck what they believe can happen,
Speaker 2: and we met their starts day in. They pressed us
Speaker 2: the whole second half. I think we lost by eighteen
Speaker 2: or so, which was a win.
Speaker 1: But on scored them in the second half. So you
Speaker 1: won the second half, but the second.
Speaker 2: Half, and not on my coaching Sarah.
Speaker 1: On their belief, Yeah, on their So then that team
Speaker 1: not the exact same team, but a lot of those pieces.
Speaker 1: And you show up in ninety eight and now you've
Speaker 1: got this opportunity against Stanford. What do you remember about
Speaker 1: the lead up to that game and what you told
Speaker 1: your team to tell them, what would they need to
Speaker 1: do and how would you pull off the victory?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Again, I do a lot of sports psychology with
Speaker 2: my teams. I don't use sports psychology when there's a problem.
Speaker 2: I do it to develop life skills like concentration, confidence, visualization, meditation, affirmations.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've done it all and again sometimes a
Speaker 2: lot of my players just roll their off. So we
Speaker 2: had years of using a lot of that stuff, you know,
Speaker 2: and it works for some, it doesn't work for others.
Speaker 2: And it worked for collectively this group and my captain's
Speaker 2: Alison Feaster, which people know, and then a young woman,
Speaker 2: Megan basil Song. They were great, great, great leaders, and
Speaker 2: Alison's superpower was she had an ability to make all
Speaker 2: of our teammates better. And so I mean I would
Speaker 2: credit their leadership and their hard work and all the
Speaker 2: work we've done all year, the buy in that they
Speaker 2: all had on confidence and believing in yourself and drinking
Speaker 2: my punch. And it was the perfect storm of We
Speaker 2: matched up really well with Stanford. We were dressed identically
Speaker 2: uniforms and warm ups, so when we went on, we
Speaker 2: all had the same warmups. It was thirty basketball players. Yeah,
Speaker 2: a riot. It was a perfect for us.
Speaker 1: Alison Feaster, who we now of course know, went on
Speaker 1: to room with Don Staley in the w and is
Speaker 1: involved in a whole bunch of projects now. But I wonder,
Speaker 1: and I mean talk about a big game. Thirty five points,
Speaker 1: thirteen rebounds in that win for Feaster, and she led
Speaker 1: you guys in so many ways throughout that season. But
Speaker 1: how old do you feel watching Alison Feaster's daughter in
Speaker 1: the tournament, Sarah Strong at Yukon in the tournament this season?
Speaker 2: Feel very very old? Thank you, Sarah.
Speaker 1: I mean, no, listen, there's people that I covered in
Speaker 1: the majors and then I hear their like younger kid
Speaker 1: with the junior on the name is now in the pros,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, how old am I getting? Jesus Sarah
Speaker 1: Strong's so fun to watch, though, I imagine you still
Speaker 1: get calls every year about that upset, do you? Both
Speaker 1: from media but maybe also from like low seeded teams
Speaker 1: that want some Kathy Delaney Smith genius to tell their
Speaker 1: team about how they can upset.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I do get a lot of This year, I
Speaker 2: didn't get very many, but up until this year, yeah,
Speaker 2: I would get a lot of the sixteen seeds would
Speaker 2: call and say what did you do?
Speaker 1: But I think on the men's side too, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been you know, a lot of stories and
Speaker 2: I think they can read it. And it's twenty five
Speaker 2: years ago. Things are different now. Actually.
Speaker 1: I mean I would bring you into my locker room
Speaker 1: in a second if I was one of those teams
Speaker 1: to tell them it's been done. By the time you
Speaker 1: retired in twenty twenty two, you were the winningest head
Speaker 1: coach in IVY League history of either gender six hundred
Speaker 1: thirty and four hundred and thirty four record, three hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty seven and one sixty eight in IVY League play.
Speaker 1: You led the program to twelve twenty win seasons, eleven
Speaker 1: IVY titles, sixteen postseason appearances, and a five hundred record.
Speaker 1: Are better than thirty one of your last thirty three seasons,
Speaker 1: one point of contention for me. Eleven IVY titles, But
Speaker 1: you never won the IVY Championship tournament. How did that happen?
Speaker 2: All right, Sarah, you know I love your podcast, but
Speaker 2: you're really falling off the pedestal, right now. Uh oh, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: there was, so there was. I remember we fought for
Speaker 2: a tournament for my entire forty years. I was there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not a big fan of a fourteen tournament. I
Speaker 2: still think there should be eight teams. I actually struggled
Speaker 2: with the four teams and only played it in at
Speaker 2: once I believe.
Speaker 1: Oh really it's that recent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I the one I realized that there was
Speaker 2: a tournament, and we beat Pinnell for the IVY Tournament Championship.
Speaker 1: That's probably why I forgot about it, Yes, of course,
Speaker 1: very the memory. Well, the reason I asked that is
Speaker 1: because in all the conversation about Harvard making it this year,
Speaker 1: they kept pointing out the first time ever Harvard women
Speaker 1: winning the IVY League tournament championship, and I'm like, how
Speaker 1: is it possible that Kathy somehow won eleven IVY titles
Speaker 1: but never you know, must have won the regular season
Speaker 1: and I didn't. Okay, so they're mispleading me too.
Speaker 2: So I think I played in two. Okay, that's the most.
Speaker 1: But still still a very recent edition. Okay, yeah, you're
Speaker 1: off the hook. I'm on the book for my research
Speaker 1: and for trusting the media full of lies as always right, misleading.
Speaker 1: How did you approach teaching smarty pants kids with no
Speaker 1: scholarships differently than you might had you been at a
Speaker 1: big program?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I probably so. I have this principle
Speaker 2: called to act as if it's in my book. Everyone
Speaker 2: wanted me to name the book Act as if I'm
Speaker 2: sort of famous for that, and so that is. It's
Speaker 2: not faked till you make it, but it's similar. It's
Speaker 2: just a little more proactive, and I acted as if
Speaker 2: I belonged at Harvard. However, inside I was very intimidated
Speaker 2: and very curious about these nerds. Yes you Sarah, that
Speaker 2: I'm going to coach, And the opposite is true. You know,
Speaker 2: they're books smart, but they're life stupid. I'm sorry, I'm
Speaker 2: not saying they're life stupid, but sometimes, yeah, there's lots
Speaker 2: they could learn. And they are the reason I stayed
Speaker 2: at Harvard for forty years. So there, you know. And
Speaker 2: are there some that are too smart? Hell? Yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: let's unwind you a little bit. I mean I would
Speaker 2: have to slap them and say, stop trying to be perfect,
Speaker 2: you know, let's celebrate your mistakes a little bit here.
Speaker 2: That's that's the biggest challenge I think. Right in IVY.
Speaker 1: League, Yeah, you got into meditation training too, right, and
Speaker 1: helping that bridge this gap for them, getting out of
Speaker 1: that mindset of maybe overachieving type A control and into
Speaker 1: the flow of the game.
Speaker 2: Yes, and not everyone buys in, And so they all
Speaker 2: went through the motions because I would take your head
Speaker 2: off if they didn't. But like so, we would do
Speaker 2: like a visual meditation before every game. And then once
Speaker 2: at Darmouth, I was so into it because I still
Speaker 2: I'm a big believer in meditation. Yeah, and I was
Speaker 2: doing it and verbalizing the visualization and everyone my eyes
Speaker 2: were closed and everyone snuck out of the locker room
Speaker 2: and I did not know it. And when I finished
Speaker 2: the visualization and opened my eyes, there was not a
Speaker 2: player in the law.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was punky kids.
Speaker 2: They won the games so they didn't get in trouble.
Speaker 1: How often did you get calls to go elsewhere? You said,
Speaker 1: the kids are why you stayed there. How close were
Speaker 1: you to ever leaving?
Speaker 2: Never? Close to leaving? Never? And I probably told everybody
Speaker 2: that I had probably one or two offers, and then
Speaker 2: then I didn't because everyone I just think there was
Speaker 2: no better place for me than Harvard. And I come
Speaker 2: from a very big family and they're all around here,
Speaker 2: and this is where I wanted to stay. Money didn't matter,
Speaker 2: It didn't make a great salary. Sorry Harvard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean sometimes they have endowed positions where it's
Speaker 1: better than other places. Then other mid majors are smaller
Speaker 1: in terms of performance, but still not the same as
Speaker 1: the down stay multi multi millions at South Carolina. Now,
Speaker 1: your path at Harvard looked a little like your path
Speaker 1: at Westwood. You started out and it was a struggle,
Speaker 1: but only a couple of seasons in you were really
Speaker 1: starting to make waves. When did you realize you were
Speaker 1: building something special? Not just having success, but I think
Speaker 1: I want to be a part of this and stay
Speaker 1: here and keep building. How long did it t to.
Speaker 2: I knew probably my first title three years in that
Speaker 2: I loved the challenges of coaching that kind of a
Speaker 2: student athlete, and I view so I'm a very present person.
Speaker 2: So I'm never like I wonder if I can win
Speaker 2: the title next year. I'm like, I'm going to take
Speaker 2: here today today. You know, I want to have a
Speaker 2: I want to have a great practice today. And I
Speaker 2: would get cranky and miserable when my practices were bad,
Speaker 2: never mind you know, playing poorly in a game. I
Speaker 2: think staying present has kept me off of social media
Speaker 2: and really happy. I might be one of the happiest
Speaker 2: people you ever meet.
Speaker 1: I love that. What's the best perk of being at
Speaker 1: Harvard for forty years? Is it the incredible people who
Speaker 1: come on campus and speak? Is it get to tell
Speaker 1: everyone you're from HAVD. What's the is it the campus?
Speaker 1: Is it the access to things? What did you love
Speaker 1: the most about that part of it that was outside
Speaker 1: of basketball.
Speaker 2: I love the I love the student athletes, and I
Speaker 2: loved I loved a lot of the people that worked
Speaker 2: at Harvard. Not all of them, for sure, the energy
Speaker 2: on the campus, this unspoken feeling that you are among
Speaker 2: people who are going to accomplish great things. I just
Speaker 2: always felt that, and so people would say, how do
Speaker 2: you recruit when there's no scholarships and there's no this,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, because what's at Harvard is very special
Speaker 2: and if you take advantage of it. And I think
Speaker 2: that is true of all of the IVY League. I
Speaker 2: just think Harvard's location, you know, with the river runs
Speaker 2: through it and Boston is so fond and our accents
Speaker 2: are fabulous.
Speaker 1: How did it feel watching them back at the tournament
Speaker 1: this year? Nerves, excitement, jealousy that you weren't on the sideline.
Speaker 2: No jealousy whatsoever. I did not. I don't want to
Speaker 2: draw a last second play. I think the tank emptied
Speaker 2: at six one years, quite honestly.
Speaker 1: But I think they've had a good run.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they did a good job. I heartbroken
Speaker 2: that they didn't have their best game in the loss.
Speaker 2: That broke my heart.
Speaker 1: Well, hopefully it's the beginning of another run for them.
Speaker 1: You know. I listened to an interview did you talked
Speaker 1: about players coming back to you later in life and
Speaker 1: saying how much they learned from you. You just talked
Speaker 1: about with the book, how many players came back and said, coach,
Speaker 1: your wisdom needs to be shared. But they also sometimes
Speaker 1: talked about how they hated you when they played for you. Now,
Speaker 1: I think hate might be too extreme. You're probably being
Speaker 1: trd on yourself, but safe to say you took a
Speaker 1: bit of a tough love approach.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I my self criticism is I was
Speaker 2: too nice. I was like, oh, you're tired. They pulled
Speaker 2: an all lighter and I would say. I had assistant
Speaker 2: coaches who would come from other programs and they were like, hey,
Speaker 2: kill um. So I mean, there's never a one size
Speaker 2: fits so I and I have been blessed one I
Speaker 2: will say my breast cancer journey. You know, there are
Speaker 2: people who thought I was going to die and came
Speaker 2: out of the woodwork and tell me, you know, how
Speaker 2: much they loved me and whatever. I think. That was
Speaker 2: shocking to me because I always thought, you know, no,
Speaker 2: everyone criticizes you. Everyone can do We live in a
Speaker 2: culture where everyone can do our job better than we can.
Speaker 2: Of course, it's the single only job in the world
Speaker 2: where everyone can coach better than we can. Including the players.
Speaker 2: So and then in my retirement, I have I zoomed
Speaker 2: every player I ever coached to write the book, and
Speaker 2: I was blown away by our conversations. And retirement for
Speaker 2: me is I say yes to everything and everybody. It's
Speaker 2: so fun.
Speaker 1: I love that. I feel like there's some pretty good
Speaker 1: life lessons to be learned from understanding the importance of
Speaker 1: being challenged to do better, to be better, to work harder,
Speaker 1: and that in the moment it sucks, and then later
Speaker 1: you're so grateful for the people who pushed you. And
Speaker 1: that is the sign of a great coach. But also
Speaker 1: I think the sign of a good athlete is someone
Speaker 1: who can do it. You told a story on one
Speaker 1: of the interviews that was mind blowing about your top player,
Speaker 1: straight A's at Harvard, top scorer on the team, did
Speaker 1: not try hard, and when you said to her, I
Speaker 1: need you to work hard, she said, I've gotten this far,
Speaker 1: have it worked hard a day in my life? Why
Speaker 1: would I start now? And you had her leave the
Speaker 1: team your top scorer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean.
Speaker 1: That's wild.
Speaker 2: I know where did I get the courage to do
Speaker 2: that and be three and twenty five that year?
Speaker 1: We love it I didn't that part wasn't part of
Speaker 1: the other interview important part. But I mean what you
Speaker 1: said is right, one bad apple. Right. If your best
Speaker 1: player is showing the worst habits, that trickles down and
Speaker 1: the people who can't afford not to try, who can't
Speaker 1: afford to be lazy, start to get that way, and
Speaker 1: now the whole team is sunk. I love your act
Speaker 1: as if. I think fake it till you make it
Speaker 1: as a decent one. I've used that phrase a lot,
Speaker 1: especially in my career, where you've got to like start
Speaker 1: without any support or fans or belief, and you're kind
Speaker 1: of like selling a house, except it to you. Everyone.
Speaker 1: Isn't this so wonderful?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Like even if I know that there's a bunch of
Speaker 1: shit in the basement, I'm not telling you. I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna tell you how great it is. Right, But act
Speaker 1: as if is so great because I think it's essentially
Speaker 1: mind over matter. It's basically when I'm in a tough
Speaker 1: situation and I know it's not something I want to do.
Speaker 1: If I say, act as if you loved holding a
Speaker 1: giant snake, because I want to be someone who's not
Speaker 1: afraid act as if you're not afraid of bungee jumping,
Speaker 1: because I want to be someone who's not afraid of
Speaker 1: anything in life. And if you have the power of
Speaker 1: your mind to do that, I mean, I beg you
Speaker 1: the examples. What's an example from your book of using
Speaker 1: that act as if when it really stood out to you.
Speaker 2: I could give you a million, but I'll give you two.
Speaker 2: So backtball wise was Stanford. It was act as if,
Speaker 2: you know, because we didn't get a lot of respect.
Speaker 2: People are going, did you unpack your suitcase? Are you
Speaker 2: reading books tonight? Yeah? Like we really were a mid
Speaker 2: major that no one knew about, so we had to
Speaker 2: act as if. But I have used it healing. I've
Speaker 2: had several back surgeries, and you act as if you
Speaker 2: feel strong. You act as if you're feeling well, and
Speaker 2: surprisingly you will feel better more quickly. You will feet
Speaker 2: stronger and get stronger more quickly. It's very powerful. I'm
Speaker 2: a big believer in it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not to go to the complete extreme, but like
Speaker 1: if you think about monks who are able to sit
Speaker 1: in one position for hours at a time, or even
Speaker 1: self immolating to the to the furthest extreme of sitting
Speaker 1: quietly while aflame. It's an idea of like you just
Speaker 1: tell your body I'm in charge of you instead of
Speaker 1: the other way around, And in a lot of ways
Speaker 1: it could be really powerful. I remember listening to Kristin Press,
Speaker 1: the soccer player, in an interview and saying, sometimes when
Speaker 1: she's in the middle of the hardest workout possible, the
Speaker 1: wind sprints and all the strength and all the other stuff,
Speaker 1: she just focuses on her pinky and she's like, Oh,
Speaker 1: what is my pinky to feeling right now? How does
Speaker 1: my pinky toe feel? Is it warm? Is it cold?
Speaker 1: Is it hurting?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: And that focus somewhere else pulls her mind away from
Speaker 1: the parts of her that are working hard. And it's
Speaker 1: really amazing what our minds can do if we if
Speaker 1: we think about it. Let's talk about your your book
Speaker 1: written Wit, which I'm one thousand percent reading after this interview.
Speaker 1: It came out in January. It's described as a memoir
Speaker 1: meets leadership and action, inspired by John Wooden and the
Speaker 1: courageous spirit of Brene Browns Darren Greatly, I'm already sold
Speaker 1: on this, but tell me especially, I'm interested in how
Speaker 1: Brene's messages come through.
Speaker 2: So I have always coached and led non traditionally, like
Speaker 2: at Harvard, I was highly criticized because I wanted my
Speaker 2: players to call Kathy in the early eighties, and that
Speaker 2: was you'll get no respect. And I'm like, well, why
Speaker 2: would I get respect just because someone's saying coach and
Speaker 2: mostly they can't remember my name, that's why they're saying coach. Like, so,
Speaker 2: I'm just non traditional and so I used my instincts
Speaker 2: and I used relational leadership and it has just served
Speaker 2: me well. However, I was very vulnerable. I was very
Speaker 2: I would be the first one. I'll be in practice,
Speaker 2: I'll go on and on about teaching a drill, and
Speaker 2: I'll make a mistake, you know, and a lot of coaches,
Speaker 2: our egos sort of want to hide that mistake. And
Speaker 2: I was the opposite. I was like, shit, I just
Speaker 2: taught that wrong and then I fixed it. And in
Speaker 2: asking my players why they drank my puncher, why my
Speaker 2: leadership was so important to them, they said, because you
Speaker 2: were genuine, genuine, and you were authentic, and that wrong
Speaker 2: true with me. And that's Brene Brown's shick. That's what
Speaker 2: I have a girl crush on her because she's you know,
Speaker 2: she was the first one to come out and change male,
Speaker 2: white male traditional hierarchy leadership, which desperately needs to be
Speaker 2: changed in our world.
Speaker 1: So is it true that the book was originally titled
Speaker 1: get your Head out of your Ass because You're missing Out?
Speaker 1: And why did you change the title?
Speaker 2: I don't know these stupid people that made me change.
Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm not gonna lie. Grittin Wit sounds like another
Speaker 1: coaching book. Get your Head out of your Ass because
Speaker 1: You're missing Out sounds like the first one. I'm picking
Speaker 1: up off the shelf.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Sarah. I think we are aligned. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie to.
Speaker 1: You second release. Try it with the other titles. See
Speaker 1: what happens.
Speaker 2: Well, I think we're going to have a book too,
Speaker 2: because everyone, hey, you forgot this story, Kathy, You've got
Speaker 2: this story right. So they wanted me to not rule
Speaker 2: out thirteen year old girls. They think it's an easy
Speaker 2: it's very easy read. There's some funny stories, and there's
Speaker 2: a message, you know, for parents and coaches and leaders
Speaker 2: and kids and young girls who you know are have
Speaker 2: fluctuating levels of confidence. So they thought the foul language
Speaker 2: would rule them out. And then they said, well, academically,
Speaker 2: you know, Harvard Coop's not going to put it in
Speaker 2: their bookstore. Well, that's a.
Speaker 1: Problem all these years, Harvard, don't you don't you ower
Speaker 1: a title of a book with ass in the name.
Speaker 1: I do love it, though, because I think the point
Speaker 1: of that was what we talked about earlier, with just
Speaker 1: getting women the confidence to decide that they could take
Speaker 1: something on even if they aren't quite ready, even if
Speaker 1: they're not the very best and the most of an expert.
Speaker 1: But you'll miss out if you're so desperate to be
Speaker 1: perfect or have it all right and figured out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you're brilliant, you are.
Speaker 1: You are slip through the cracks. Yeah, Kathy was so
Speaker 1: great to talk to you. I'm just I can't wait
Speaker 1: to read your book. I really I loved prepping for
Speaker 1: this interview and learning from you, just from Afar so
Speaker 1: even more so, and getting to talk to you in person.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for the time.
Speaker 2: It was great. I love you podcast. I'm a big fan.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: Thanks again to Kathy for taking the time. I absolutely
Speaker 1: loved our chat. We got to take another break when
Speaker 1: we come back. A pregame stroke of genius. We draw
Speaker 1: your attention to what's easyl e the best way to relax,
Speaker 1: aren't you glad I'm making all these funds? Welcome back slices.
Speaker 1: We love that you're listening, but we want you to
Speaker 1: get in the game every day too. So here's our
Speaker 1: good game play of the day. Pick up a copy
Speaker 1: of Kathy's book Grit and Wit Empowering Lives and Leaders.
Speaker 1: We know we're going to we'll link to it in
Speaker 1: the show notes, and you know we love to hear
Speaker 1: from you. To hit us up on email. Good game
Speaker 1: at wondermedianetwork dot com, and don't forget to subscribe, rate
Speaker 1: and review It's Easy slices. Watch Coloring, Painting and finding
Speaker 1: your Inner Artist, rating ten out of ten. Destressing and
Speaker 1: nerve calming stars review. We learned before Sunday South Carolina
Speaker 1: game that star Chloe Kits turns to colored pencils and
Speaker 1: coloring books before games to get herself in the right headspace.
Speaker 1: Here a good game. We understand the power of a
Speaker 1: little arts and time. Producer Mish recently took a pottery class.
Speaker 1: I recently went to a painting class and painted one
Speaker 1: of my dogs. And producer Alex is just an amazing artist.
Speaker 1: You can actually buy her stuff on Etsy. Her shop
Speaker 1: is called Azi Artwork. So shout out to you Chloe
Speaker 1: for hitting the books coloring books, and to all you slices.
Speaker 1: Go find an artistic outlet this week. Now it's your
Speaker 1: turn rate and review. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Good game, Kathy, Good game, Chloe, kimk you self doubt.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're not group chatting battle plans to
Speaker 1: journals or accidentally firing then rehiring nuclear safety experts, then
Speaker 1: you're already doing better than some of the most powerful
Speaker 1: men in America. Act as if you got this because
Speaker 1: you do. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart
Speaker 1: women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
Speaker 1: You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,
Speaker 1: our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive
Speaker 1: producer a Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rutterer.
Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez, and Grace Lynch.
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Lucy Jones. And I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Sarah Spain