WEBVTT - ‘Act As If’ with Kathy Delaney-Smith 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:02.960 Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we've decided 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:07.040 it's time to stop discriminating against men from here on out. 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.520 This is a sports podcast, and by sports, of course, 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:16.680 I mean men's sports. It's Tuesday, April first, Yup, April first, 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:19.240 and on today's show, we'll be talking to women's hoops 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.599 coaching legend Kathy Delaney Smith about her forty seasons leading 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.880 the team at Harvard their legendary sixteen seed over one 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:29.920 seed tournament upset, incorporating meditation into her coaching, and how 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.800 to apply her act as if attitude, plus locking up 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:36.680 a ticket to Italy, deciding whether to go pro, and 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.199 a big announcement about having nothing to announce. It's all 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:48.640 coming up right after this Welcome back slices. Here's what 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:53.479 you need to know today, starting with college hoops first, 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:56.240 we're recording this before the final Elite Eight games between 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.480 USC and Yukon and TCU and Texas on Monday night 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:01.280 to make sure we get you all caught up on 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.760 those contests, plus the Final four picture later this week. 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:07.959 In the meantime, a few players still have big decisions 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:11.039 to make with the WNBA draft looming, and that includes 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:15.080 LSU's Flage Johnson. After LSU lost to UCLA on Sunday, 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.600 the junior guard said she wasn't sure if she'd be 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.840 entering the WNBA Draft this spring. While Johnson still has 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:24.640 another year of college eligibility, she turns twenty two this November, 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:27.920 meaning she's eligible to enter the draft this year despite 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:30.840 not having completed four years of college. Johnson says she 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.480 plans to talk to both her family and LSU coach 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.119 Kim Mulki before making the decision. Elsewhere in college hoops, 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:41.039 Iowa state star Audie Crooks announced that she isn't going anywhere. 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.120 After the number eleven Cyclones were ousted by number six 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:46.440 Michigan in the first round of March Madness. Lots of 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.280 fans wondered whether the six foot three sophomore might enter 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.640 the transfer portal, but on Sunday, Crooks put those concerns 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.720 to rest, writing on Instagram, quote, Dear Cyclone Nation, thank 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:58.880 you to all the coaches and fans that have supported 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:02.440 me on this journey after much thought and consideration, Quit 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.240 asking I am right where I want to be. Let's 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:09.240 run it back hashtag loyal Forever true end quote, and 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:11.880 Crook's teammate Addie Brown will be right there with her 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:14.680 writing on Instagram quote write where I need to be 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:19.200 end quote to the PWHL. The Montreal Victoire announced on 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.880 Monday that goaltender and Renee Deben has been placed on 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.359 long term injury reserve. Debn suffered a lower body injury 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.360 in a March eighteenth game against the Boston Fleet. General 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.400 manager Danielle Sovajo expressed optimism that Debn could be back 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:34.720 before the end of the season, saying in a statement, 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.600 the results from the medical exams following her injury are 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.480 encouraging and we expect her to return in the near future. 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.359 This type of injury will require weekly, if not daily, 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.320 follow ups. Montreal has already clinched a spot in the 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:48.800 PWHL playoffs and is currently on top of the league 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:52.680 standings among qualified goalies. Deben leads the league this season 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.960 in both say percentage and goals against average. To snowboarding, 0:02:57.080 --> 0:03:00.120 Chloe Kim won her third halfpipe World Championship title of 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.079 the weekend to mathematically clinch a spot on her third 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.920 Olympic team. The two time Olympic gold medalist has the 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.840 chance to become the first snowboarder to win three straight 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:12.120 gold medals at next winners Olympics in Italy. The world 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.840 title puts a nice button on Kim's season, which also 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.160 saw her become the first woman to land a double 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.239 cork ten eighty in competition and win yet another X 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:24.280 Games title. To the US Canada Trade War of the 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.200 soccer variety, the Chicago Stars announced that the club is 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:29.920 loaning forward Sarah Griffith to the Calgary Wild of the 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:34.240 Canadian Northern Super League aka the NSL. Griffith, who hails 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:36.480 from Chicago, was drafted by the Stars in twenty twenty 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.440 two and appeared in seven matches for the club last year. 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.840 Now she'll help the NFL launch its inaugural season. Related 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.720 if anyone knows any podcast host loan programs that would 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:49.960 take this Chicagoan up north for a couple of years, 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:55.040 hit me up that might become necessary. Finally, one last 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.800 piece of news. After fifty plus years in basketball coaching, 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.440 including thirty nine c seas as head coach at DePaul 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.080 University with a seven hundred and eighty six and four 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.520 oh five record, the legendary Doug Bruno is stepping down. 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:09.839 He'll assume a role of special assistant to the vice 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.520 president slash director of athletics for women's basketball. Bruno first 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.360 coached De Paul in nineteen seventy six, left two years 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:18.679 later to coach the Chicago Hustle of the Women's Professional 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.280 Basketball League until nineteen eighty, and then, after some time 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.479 in the men's game, returned to De Paul women's basketball 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:25.720 in nineteen eighty eight, where he was the head coach 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.160 until his announced retirement at the end of this season. 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.360 He's the winningest coach in De Paul hoop's history, passing 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.880 Hall of Fame men's coach Ray Meyer back in twenty twenty. 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:36.640 He was an assistant for Team USA from twenty nine 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.400 to sixteen, helping them to their fifth and sixth straight 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.400 Olympic Golds in twenty twelve and twenty sixteen, and his 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:46.680 Doug Bruno girls basketball camps were game changers for generations 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:50.960 of Hoopers, including yours truly, said Yukon head coach Gino 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.000 Oriama of Bruno, quote, there haven't been a lot of 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.400 people in the history of women's basketball that have given 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:57.680 as much to the game as he has end quote. 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:02.520 Congrats on a hell of a runt coach. We got 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:04.320 to take a quick break when we come back. It's 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:06.880 Kathy Delaney Smith. We caught up with her last week 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:16.520 ahead of the Sweet sixteen joining us now. She was 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.800 a legendary high school coach before spending forty seasons as 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.279 head coach of the women's basketball team at Harvard University. 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:24.240 In nineteen ninety eight, she led the Crimson to the 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:26.640 first and still only number sixteen up set of a 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:29.880 number one seed in the NCAA Women's Basketball Tournament. Owner 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.640 of over six hundred wins, the first woman named the 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.760 Massachusetts Basketball Coaches Hall of Fame, and the namesake of 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.800 an annual national award presented by her Hoopstats to the 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.320 top D one mid major head coach, the Kathy Delaney 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.000 Smith Mid Major Coach of the Year Award. The author 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:46.839 of GrITT and Wit, Empowering Lives and Leaders, a cancer survivor, 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.440 and a big part of the reason Harvard women's hoops 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:54.320 is seventy eight and fourteen all time against my alma mater, Cornell. Woof. 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:58.000 It's Kathy Delaney Smith. Hi, Kathy, and thank you very 0:05:58.040 --> 0:05:58.520 little for that. 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.080 I'm thrilled beyond and I'm sorry about Cornell. 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:05.840 Man. I tried to find a good stat to get 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.680 back at you with, and there aren't very many. They 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.600 have a one in forty five away record against Harvard 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:13.120 oh out. 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:17.920 However, Danis Smith, who did twenty eight or nine or 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:22.039 thirty years there, one of my favorite tremendous coach, so 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:23.960 you know I loved her. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.480 Yeah, I will say we did our best. I want 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.560 to go back to the beginning, Kathy, because I just 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.000 love your origin story. You grew up in Newton, mass 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:36.160 You became the first female basketball player in Massachusetts history 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.200 to score a thousand points. But then you went to 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.640 college at Bridgewater State, which at the time didn't have 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.640 varsity basketball for women, so you competed on the synchronized 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.920 swimming team. Of course, it was the only competitive option 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.520 for female swimmers at the time. But this is important 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.160 because then you wanted to become a swim coach, and 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.200 you were looking to become a swim coach when you 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.200 stumbled into coaching basketball. So tell us how you ended 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.200 up coaching at Westwood High which is just a few 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:00.400 miles away from where you. 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.840 Okay, well, I did go to Bridgewater with superintendent's son, 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.240 John Tobin and had a mad crush on him. Just 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.560 throw that out there, and I was in my interview 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:11.760 trying desperately to get the job because they had a 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.960 brand new pool this yeah, at westwod High School, and 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.600 I want to just start their swim program. And the 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.080 superintendent said, you know, can you coach basketball and win? 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.680 Our team is not good? His daughter played for the team. 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.960 He wasn't that good either, and that's the first time 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.000 I've ever publicly said that. But he said, can you win? 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:34.000 And I said, yes, of course I can. And then 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.320 I because I wanted the job, and I got the job, 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.040 and I was zero and eleven that first year, so 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:42.960 I guess I yes, I didn't do a great jo. 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:45.760 I didn't read enough basketball books. I hadn't played, so 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.480 I played six player for my mother. Can't dribble. You know, 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:51.000 it's not even the same game. 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:52.200 Right, That's what I was going to say. A lot 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:54.520 of people don't even know that it started out as 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:58.280 six on six for women's without dribbling. And you still 0:07:58.360 --> 0:07:59.800 that's where you got your thousand points. 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.920 Yes, and my mother was my coach, So yeah, everyone 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:05.600 gets mad when I'm not proud of that, although I 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:09.400 should be, but because I can shoot. Yeah, but you know, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:10.640 it's not real basketball. 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.720 It's very different. So you you played six on six, 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:15.800 but now you're coaching five on five. You mentioned you 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.040 went oh and eleven in the first season, but then 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.640 over the next eleven years you led that team to 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.720 six undefeated seasons, including a one hundred game win streak, 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.160 a two hundred and four and thirty one record, and 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.160 a state championship. So how do we get from I 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:32.240 don't know what I'm doing to that? How did you 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:33.760 teach yourself to be a great coach? 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.080 I read every book and went to every clinic I 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.400 could go to. And the reason I wrote the book 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.439 Brittin Went was because you know, there are so many 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.720 women who fight there having a consistent level of confidence, 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:50.640 and so my story is really, if I can do it, 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.080 anyone could do it. So and I just you know, 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:54.960 you have to work hard, and you have to have 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:56.880 a passion, and you have to love what you're doing. 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:01.960 And I did. I just love basketball, and I retire. 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:06.520 I was undefeated in swimming, by the way, I went 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.600 seven years and never lost a meat WOA, And I 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.240 would say I had great divers that I didn't teach, 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.920 so I would probably can't take credit for it, but Nonetheless, 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.080 I am undefeated in swimming and fell in love with basketball. 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.559 Yeah, as a coacher saying in swimming, yeah, as a coach. Well, 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:24.760 you know you're talking about the book. We're going to 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:26.360 get more into the book later, but I think that 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:28.960 what you're getting at is super important, especially as we're 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.640 looking at numbers of women coaches or women stepping up 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.680 for opportunities that have been either held predominantly by men 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:38.000 or that are now being taken over by men now 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.200 that there's more pay in the space. Do you have 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.360 a message for women who feel like they have to 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:44.280 be an expert or they have to know it all 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.200 before saying yes, you're a prime example of someone who 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.320 said yes and then said okay, I'll figure it out. 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:53.880 Yeah. You just described, unfortunately, a characteristic of women that's 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:59.280 very widespread and almost a disease. I coached at Harvard 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.960 for forty years, and the women I coached, we you know, 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:05.760 a WHUSU. They're brilliant, and yet even in my last 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:10.480 four or five years, my student athletes would say, sometimes 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.720 we're afraid to raise our hand in class because we 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.120 don't have the right answer, and we're not going to 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:19.120 raise our hand unless we're perfect, and you're surrounded by 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.000 men who really don't even care if they're close to 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.360 right as long as they're heard. And so you know, 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.040 not that I want to swing the pendulum all the 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:30.640 way to the way men are, but women have to 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.200 understand perfect is boring. And that's a chapter in my book. No. 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:35.800 I got to read that one. 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.719 When we learned to stop trying to be perfect, We 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.360 learned we can live life and then you can be great. Yeah, great, 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:42.960 gro faster. 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.720 Yeah, I've been I think the universe is sending me 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.240 a message because I am been hammered with this for 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.680 the last like about four months. Is like this repetition 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:56.240 of like do bigger, swing bigger, try bigger, so that 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:58.240 if you fail, it's totally fine, but at least you 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:00.400 know where the limit is. So many of us are 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:02.600 so worried about failing that we don't even find out 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.800 where our limits are. That's such a good mess. I 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.600 got to read your book. Okay, while you were at Westwood, 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:10.080 you filed four Title nine lawsuits while you were a 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.640 coach there. This is inspiring and instructive because I think 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:14.480 a lot of people feel like that's so hard to 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.200 do from within a space, but you challenged the school 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.400 to do better while remaining in good standing there and 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.360 keeping your job. How did you do that well? 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:26.440 Because I was glueless and passionate, and I was raised 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:28.920 to believe, you know, women and men are the same 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.559 and you can do anything. I've never been one who's 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:36.160 been funneled into a stereotype. I've never been very traditional. 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.079 So I got to Westwood and the uniforms were awful, 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.280 the budgets were awful, the practice times are awful, and 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:46.160 I was shocked. I was like, what's going on here? 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:49.960 And Title nine had just passed, so I, you know, 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.840 I never really thought about the consequences to me. And 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.680 people said you'll never get a job and everyone will 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.240 hate you, and it didn't really matter to me. It 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.280 was it was the right thing for us to have 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.160 practice times and not where the field hockey kills for 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:07.280 the basketball. 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.800 Team makes no sense, right, no, so and it. 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:13.320 Worked and they know it went. I got everything I wanted, 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:14.040 all right. 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.040 The important thing, too, is it's not just that it 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:19.439 was the right thing, but the legal thing. And we 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:21.280 need to use Title nine as long as we have it, 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:22.920 and we need to use it more than we are 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:24.880 to make sure people are in compliance, because it is 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.680 the law. You actually coached my friend Jackie McMullen, who 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:30.880 went on to be not just a great hooper but 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.360 a legendary sports writer and an opponent of mine for 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.000 years on around the Horn, who gave me great advice 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:37.520 and mentored me in a lot of ways. So what 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:39.840 was Jackie like as a high school kid? Could you 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:41.400 see future Jackie in there? 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.839 Yes, Jackie? So Jackie wrote the Fluid in my book. 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.280 Yeah it I cried when I read it. I mean 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.840 because I think her writing is off the charts and 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.600 her memory is very different than my memory. But like 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:59.920 she's she's so special. She's a pioneer. She's broken through Glassdale, 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.880 as everyone knows. And I like to finally say, she 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.120 didn't know how to write to I coached her. That's 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:11.640 but so far that's work for We have stayed very 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:16.239 very close friends. And she's just she's a fighter. She's passionate, 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:20.080 she's confident, yet inside she sort of still deals with 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.200 what we all deal with is some insecurities on this level. 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:27.360 Although you know, and she's just such a hard worker 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.120 that you know she's gonna make gold out of anything. 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:32.920 She tried. That's just that good. 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.880 I'm always fascinated by this because there are a lot 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.080 of ways when I look back to myself as a 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.520 young person and I'm like, oh, there, I was already 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.680 me in so many ways, right, you know, I was 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:45.800 to your point about title nine. I was petitioning my 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.360 school to be able to take pass failed gym before 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.440 school because I was achieving all the things that the 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.320 law required of gym class by my three varsity sports, 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:54.960 and it was taking up a class in my school 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:56.920 day that I wanted for band and course, and I 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:58.400 already didn't have a lunch and why am I going 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:00.760 to pe class? And so I filed report with the 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:02.800 school and demanded that I should be allowed to take 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:04.960 it before like all this Like I'm like, who is 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.240 that kid? It's me And I was always in there. 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.959 But I wonder how often you're coaching and you instead 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.959 see someone maybe you're delighted to find that they become 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.960 a very different person later in life. How often do 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:18.760 the kids you coached in high school come back and 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:21.040 you're like, you are so different than the kid that 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:21.360 you were. 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:25.160 Yeah, I mean I I was one of those people 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.600 that just loved my I was loved being a high 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.560 school teacher and coach and never even wanted to go 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:32.320 to college. And then I arrived at Harvard. And I 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.880 grew up near Harvard and had this really ugly opinion 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:40.000 of Harvard, like they're entitled, they're white, they're rich. 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:40.840 They're they're not Cornell. 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.280 Yeah, yeah, they don't like, they're not good to women 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.960 and blah blah, and they're not quite nice. But it 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.760 was the opposite of that. And so the women I 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:56.000 got at Harvard, probably one of my greatest satisfactions is 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.160 they changed so much from when they're freshmen too when 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.720 they're seniors. I was convinced to write a book. I'm 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.680 not a writer. I didn't think I had anything to say, 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:09.920 But here I have all these forty years of fifty 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.040 one years, including high school, of women that have just 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:17.000 they're a WHOSU in this country professionally, and they will 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.520 tell you a lot of what they learned and accomplished 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:23.560 came from playing basketball and learning life skills. You know, 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.160 success and failure when you're playing a sport. 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.520 From you, you could say it from you. 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.920 Well, I thought everybody did what I did. So that's 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:34.240 why I didn't want to write a book. I'm like, 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.600 every program, every coach does this. This is not true, 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:37.960 I guess. 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.440 Yeah, let's talk about Harvard. They come calling, they're looking 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:43.320 for a new head women's basketball coach. I want to 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.280 hear how indoor tennis courts led to you spending forty 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:47.520 years in Cambridge. 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:49.640 Yeah, this is where I just came from to this. 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.080 My reason for living is tennis. I'm just saying, not 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:58.320 synchronized swimming and not even basketball. Yeah, And I was 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.080 paying an on the future salary into a courts were 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:05.800 just really expensive. So I didn't have any aspirations to 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.880 be a college coach. So I got invited because I 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:13.000 was the local successful coach. And when they invited me 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.760 to apply, I'm like, Harvard, No, do they even have 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.120 a basketball team? That's what I got, And so then 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.240 I went over. I was guilted into you at least 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.040 need to go on your interview, and in one day's 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.600 time I fell in love with Harvard. I just the 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:33.440 energy on the campus, the student athletes I met. I 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.840 then after a seven eight hour day of interviews, I 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:41.440 wanted the job so bad and I was the only 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:46.040 person candidate who didn't coach college or play college. So 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:48.440 I didn't think I had a show, and I filed lawsuits, 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:50.480 so I didn't think I had a chance in heck 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.280 of getting the job, and I was surprised when I 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:53.680 got it. 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.640 But you buried the lead during that visit. You spotted 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.560 the any tennis courts and you were like, oh, I 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:05.320 could use the for free. I'm in. Although the perks 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.760 of the job are a lot of times the big draw. 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.359 Of course it's another job, but the free tennis courts. 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.960 Let's do it. Let's start with the big, the big one. 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:17.000 Your ninety eight team, the first number sixteen seed to 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:19.080 upset a number one seed, and the men's or women's 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.200 NCAA tournament still the only time it's happened on the 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:24.320 women's side. You beat Stanford seventy one sixty seven. And 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.680 before we get to that game, I heard you say 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.199 in an interview that that ninety eight win actually happened 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.000 as a result of a foundation that you built in 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.320 the ninety seven tournament. Can you tell us about that. 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.199 Yes, when we went to we were paired up with 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:42.520 North Carolina, and in my opinion, in lots of people's opinion, 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.280 North Carolina might have been the all athletic team of 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.919 the world of the country that year, the only team 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:51.600 that I felt we didn't match up that well with. 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.640 Marion jones the black guard. That's so unfair. 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.840 It was kind of fast, yeah, a little plink guard 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.240 not quite as fast, and I think we were down 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.960 eighteen zero twenty zero. My poor point guard was trying 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.359 to get it across half court past Marian Joneson was 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:11.920 not doing a very good job, and she kept looking 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.320 over Kathy call the time up, and I turned away 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.240 because I didn't really have any suggestions for her. It 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:25.120 was like a near impossible situation. But surprisingly enough, at halftime, 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.120 coaches gather up inside the locker room. My team goes 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:33.159 in to talk about strategies to get better make adjustments 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:37.040 in the second half, and I overheard my team truly, truly, 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:41.240 truly believing that they could beat North Carolina. Now I 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.800 think I can win every game I coach. That was 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:49.680 one I may have hesitated on. I was so astounded 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:53.639 by their confidence and very proud that I had given 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.919 them this ability to believe in themselves. So we coaches 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.480 went in and I didn't say a whole lot, and 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:03.439 I said, let's not wreck what they believe can happen, 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.439 and we met their starts day in. They pressed us 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.880 the whole second half. I think we lost by eighteen 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:12.000 or so, which was a win. 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:13.840 But on scored them in the second half. So you 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.280 won the second half, but the second. 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.040 Half, and not on my coaching Sarah. 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.160 On their belief, Yeah, on their So then that team 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:24.360 not the exact same team, but a lot of those pieces. 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.040 And you show up in ninety eight and now you've 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.240 got this opportunity against Stanford. What do you remember about 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:32.080 the lead up to that game and what you told 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.399 your team to tell them, what would they need to 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.080 do and how would you pull off the victory? 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.239 Yeah? Again, I do a lot of sports psychology with 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:45.600 my teams. I don't use sports psychology when there's a problem. 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:54.879 I do it to develop life skills like concentration, confidence, visualization, meditation, affirmations. 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:58.639 I mean, I've done it all and again sometimes a 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.280 lot of my players just roll their off. So we 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.760 had years of using a lot of that stuff, you know, 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:06.879 and it works for some, it doesn't work for others. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:11.400 And it worked for collectively this group and my captain's 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:15.600 Alison Feaster, which people know, and then a young woman, 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.520 Megan basil Song. They were great, great, great leaders, and 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:25.399 Alison's superpower was she had an ability to make all 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.119