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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we've decided

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Speaker 1: it's time to stop discriminating against men from here on out.

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Speaker 1: This is a sports podcast, and by sports, of course,

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Speaker 1: I mean men's sports. It's Tuesday, April first, Yup, April first,

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Speaker 1: and on today's show, we'll be talking to women's hoops

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Speaker 1: coaching legend Kathy Delaney Smith about her forty seasons leading

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Speaker 1: the team at Harvard their legendary sixteen seed over one

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Speaker 1: seed tournament upset, incorporating meditation into her coaching, and how

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Speaker 1: to apply her act as if attitude, plus locking up

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Speaker 1: a ticket to Italy, deciding whether to go pro, and

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Speaker 1: a big announcement about having nothing to announce. It's all

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Speaker 1: coming up right after this Welcome back slices. Here's what

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Speaker 1: you need to know today, starting with college hoops first,

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Speaker 1: we're recording this before the final Elite Eight games between

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Speaker 1: USC and Yukon and TCU and Texas on Monday night

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Speaker 1: to make sure we get you all caught up on

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Speaker 1: those contests, plus the Final four picture later this week.

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Speaker 1: In the meantime, a few players still have big decisions

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Speaker 1: to make with the WNBA draft looming, and that includes

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Speaker 1: LSU's Flage Johnson. After LSU lost to UCLA on Sunday,

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Speaker 1: the junior guard said she wasn't sure if she'd be

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Speaker 1: entering the WNBA Draft this spring. While Johnson still has

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Speaker 1: another year of college eligibility, she turns twenty two this November,

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Speaker 1: meaning she's eligible to enter the draft this year despite

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Speaker 1: not having completed four years of college. Johnson says she

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Speaker 1: plans to talk to both her family and LSU coach

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Speaker 1: Kim Mulki before making the decision. Elsewhere in college hoops,

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Speaker 1: Iowa state star Audie Crooks announced that she isn't going anywhere.

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Speaker 1: After the number eleven Cyclones were ousted by number six

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Speaker 1: Michigan in the first round of March Madness. Lots of

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Speaker 1: fans wondered whether the six foot three sophomore might enter

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Speaker 1: the transfer portal, but on Sunday, Crooks put those concerns

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Speaker 1: to rest, writing on Instagram, quote, Dear Cyclone Nation, thank

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Speaker 1: you to all the coaches and fans that have supported

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Speaker 1: me on this journey after much thought and consideration, Quit

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Speaker 1: asking I am right where I want to be. Let's

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Speaker 1: run it back hashtag loyal Forever true end quote, and

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Speaker 1: Crook's teammate Addie Brown will be right there with her

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Speaker 1: writing on Instagram quote write where I need to be

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Speaker 1: end quote to the PWHL. The Montreal Victoire announced on

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Speaker 1: Monday that goaltender and Renee Deben has been placed on

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Speaker 1: long term injury reserve. Debn suffered a lower body injury

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Speaker 1: in a March eighteenth game against the Boston Fleet. General

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Speaker 1: manager Danielle Sovajo expressed optimism that Debn could be back

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Speaker 1: before the end of the season, saying in a statement,

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Speaker 1: the results from the medical exams following her injury are

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Speaker 1: encouraging and we expect her to return in the near future.

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Speaker 1: This type of injury will require weekly, if not daily,

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Speaker 1: follow ups. Montreal has already clinched a spot in the

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Speaker 1: PWHL playoffs and is currently on top of the league

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Speaker 1: standings among qualified goalies. Deben leads the league this season

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Speaker 1: in both say percentage and goals against average. To snowboarding,

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Speaker 1: Chloe Kim won her third halfpipe World Championship title of

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Speaker 1: the weekend to mathematically clinch a spot on her third

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Speaker 1: Olympic team. The two time Olympic gold medalist has the

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Speaker 1: chance to become the first snowboarder to win three straight

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Speaker 1: gold medals at next winners Olympics in Italy. The world

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Speaker 1: title puts a nice button on Kim's season, which also

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Speaker 1: saw her become the first woman to land a double

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Speaker 1: cork ten eighty in competition and win yet another X

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Speaker 1: Games title. To the US Canada Trade War of the

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Speaker 1: soccer variety, the Chicago Stars announced that the club is

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Speaker 1: loaning forward Sarah Griffith to the Calgary Wild of the

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Speaker 1: Canadian Northern Super League aka the NSL. Griffith, who hails

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Speaker 1: from Chicago, was drafted by the Stars in twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: two and appeared in seven matches for the club last year.

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Speaker 1: Now she'll help the NFL launch its inaugural season. Related

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Speaker 1: if anyone knows any podcast host loan programs that would

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Speaker 1: take this Chicagoan up north for a couple of years,

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Speaker 1: hit me up that might become necessary. Finally, one last

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Speaker 1: piece of news. After fifty plus years in basketball coaching,

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Speaker 1: including thirty nine c seas as head coach at DePaul

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Speaker 1: University with a seven hundred and eighty six and four

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Speaker 1: oh five record, the legendary Doug Bruno is stepping down.

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Speaker 1: He'll assume a role of special assistant to the vice

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Speaker 1: president slash director of athletics for women's basketball. Bruno first

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Speaker 1: coached De Paul in nineteen seventy six, left two years

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Speaker 1: later to coach the Chicago Hustle of the Women's Professional

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Speaker 1: Basketball League until nineteen eighty, and then, after some time

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Speaker 1: in the men's game, returned to De Paul women's basketball

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty eight, where he was the head coach

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Speaker 1: until his announced retirement at the end of this season.

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Speaker 1: He's the winningest coach in De Paul hoop's history, passing

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Speaker 1: Hall of Fame men's coach Ray Meyer back in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: He was an assistant for Team USA from twenty nine

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Speaker 1: to sixteen, helping them to their fifth and sixth straight

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Speaker 1: Olympic Golds in twenty twelve and twenty sixteen, and his

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Speaker 1: Doug Bruno girls basketball camps were game changers for generations

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Speaker 1: of Hoopers, including yours truly, said Yukon head coach Gino

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Speaker 1: Oriama of Bruno, quote, there haven't been a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in the history of women's basketball that have given

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Speaker 1: as much to the game as he has end quote.

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Speaker 1: Congrats on a hell of a runt coach. We got

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Speaker 1: to take a quick break when we come back. It's

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Speaker 1: Kathy Delaney Smith. We caught up with her last week

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Speaker 1: ahead of the Sweet sixteen joining us now. She was

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Speaker 1: a legendary high school coach before spending forty seasons as

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Speaker 1: head coach of the women's basketball team at Harvard University.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety eight, she led the Crimson to the

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Speaker 1: first and still only number sixteen up set of a

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Speaker 1: number one seed in the NCAA Women's Basketball Tournament. Owner

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Speaker 1: of over six hundred wins, the first woman named the

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Speaker 1: Massachusetts Basketball Coaches Hall of Fame, and the namesake of

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Speaker 1: an annual national award presented by her Hoopstats to the

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Speaker 1: top D one mid major head coach, the Kathy Delaney

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Speaker 1: Smith Mid Major Coach of the Year Award. The author

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Speaker 1: of GrITT and Wit, Empowering Lives and Leaders, a cancer survivor,

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Speaker 1: and a big part of the reason Harvard women's hoops

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Speaker 1: is seventy eight and fourteen all time against my alma mater, Cornell. Woof.

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Speaker 1: It's Kathy Delaney Smith. Hi, Kathy, and thank you very

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Speaker 1: little for that.

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Speaker 2: I'm thrilled beyond and I'm sorry about Cornell.

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Speaker 1: Man. I tried to find a good stat to get

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Speaker 1: back at you with, and there aren't very many. They

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Speaker 1: have a one in forty five away record against Harvard

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Speaker 1: oh out.

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Speaker 2: However, Danis Smith, who did twenty eight or nine or

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Speaker 2: thirty years there, one of my favorite tremendous coach, so

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Speaker 2: you know I loved her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say we did our best. I want

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Speaker 1: to go back to the beginning, Kathy, because I just

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Speaker 1: love your origin story. You grew up in Newton, mass

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Speaker 1: You became the first female basketball player in Massachusetts history

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Speaker 1: to score a thousand points. But then you went to

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Speaker 1: college at Bridgewater State, which at the time didn't have

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Speaker 1: varsity basketball for women, so you competed on the synchronized

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Speaker 1: swimming team. Of course, it was the only competitive option

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Speaker 1: for female swimmers at the time. But this is important

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Speaker 1: because then you wanted to become a swim coach, and

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Speaker 1: you were looking to become a swim coach when you

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Speaker 1: stumbled into coaching basketball. So tell us how you ended

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Speaker 1: up coaching at Westwood High which is just a few

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Speaker 1: miles away from where you.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, I did go to Bridgewater with superintendent's son,

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Speaker 2: John Tobin and had a mad crush on him. Just

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Speaker 2: throw that out there, and I was in my interview

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Speaker 2: trying desperately to get the job because they had a

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Speaker 2: brand new pool this yeah, at westwod High School, and

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Speaker 2: I want to just start their swim program. And the

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Speaker 2: superintendent said, you know, can you coach basketball and win?

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Speaker 2: Our team is not good? His daughter played for the team.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't that good either, and that's the first time

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Speaker 2: I've ever publicly said that. But he said, can you win?

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Speaker 2: And I said, yes, of course I can. And then

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Speaker 2: I because I wanted the job, and I got the job,

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Speaker 2: and I was zero and eleven that first year, so

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Speaker 2: I guess I yes, I didn't do a great jo.

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Speaker 2: I didn't read enough basketball books. I hadn't played, so

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Speaker 2: I played six player for my mother. Can't dribble. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's not even the same game.

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Speaker 1: Right, That's what I was going to say. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people don't even know that it started out as

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Speaker 1: six on six for women's without dribbling. And you still

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Speaker 1: that's where you got your thousand points.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and my mother was my coach, So yeah, everyone

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Speaker 2: gets mad when I'm not proud of that, although I

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Speaker 2: should be, but because I can shoot. Yeah, but you know,

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Speaker 2: it's not real basketball.

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Speaker 1: It's very different. So you you played six on six,

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Speaker 1: but now you're coaching five on five. You mentioned you

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Speaker 1: went oh and eleven in the first season, but then

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Speaker 1: over the next eleven years you led that team to

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Speaker 1: six undefeated seasons, including a one hundred game win streak,

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Speaker 1: a two hundred and four and thirty one record, and

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Speaker 1: a state championship. So how do we get from I

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Speaker 1: don't know what I'm doing to that? How did you

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Speaker 1: teach yourself to be a great coach?

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Speaker 2: I read every book and went to every clinic I

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Speaker 2: could go to. And the reason I wrote the book

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Speaker 2: Brittin Went was because you know, there are so many

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Speaker 2: women who fight there having a consistent level of confidence,

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Speaker 2: and so my story is really, if I can do it,

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Speaker 2: anyone could do it. So and I just you know,

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Speaker 2: you have to work hard, and you have to have

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Speaker 2: a passion, and you have to love what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: And I did. I just love basketball, and I retire.

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Speaker 2: I was undefeated in swimming, by the way, I went

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Speaker 2: seven years and never lost a meat WOA, And I

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Speaker 2: would say I had great divers that I didn't teach,

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Speaker 2: so I would probably can't take credit for it, but Nonetheless,

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Speaker 2: I am undefeated in swimming and fell in love with basketball.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as a coacher saying in swimming, yeah, as a coach. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know you're talking about the book. We're going to

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Speaker 1: get more into the book later, but I think that

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Speaker 1: what you're getting at is super important, especially as we're

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Speaker 1: looking at numbers of women coaches or women stepping up

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Speaker 1: for opportunities that have been either held predominantly by men

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Speaker 1: or that are now being taken over by men now

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Speaker 1: that there's more pay in the space. Do you have

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Speaker 1: a message for women who feel like they have to

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Speaker 1: be an expert or they have to know it all

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Speaker 1: before saying yes, you're a prime example of someone who

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Speaker 1: said yes and then said okay, I'll figure it out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You just described, unfortunately, a characteristic of women that's

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Speaker 2: very widespread and almost a disease. I coached at Harvard

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Speaker 2: for forty years, and the women I coached, we you know,

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Speaker 2: a WHUSU. They're brilliant, and yet even in my last

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Speaker 2: four or five years, my student athletes would say, sometimes

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Speaker 2: we're afraid to raise our hand in class because we

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Speaker 2: don't have the right answer, and we're not going to

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Speaker 2: raise our hand unless we're perfect, and you're surrounded by

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Speaker 2: men who really don't even care if they're close to

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Speaker 2: right as long as they're heard. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: not that I want to swing the pendulum all the

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Speaker 2: way to the way men are, but women have to

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Speaker 2: understand perfect is boring. And that's a chapter in my book. No.

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Speaker 1: I got to read that one.

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Speaker 2: When we learned to stop trying to be perfect, We

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Speaker 2: learned we can live life and then you can be great. Yeah, great,

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Speaker 2: gro faster.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been I think the universe is sending me

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Speaker 1: a message because I am been hammered with this for

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Speaker 1: the last like about four months. Is like this repetition

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Speaker 1: of like do bigger, swing bigger, try bigger, so that

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Speaker 1: if you fail, it's totally fine, but at least you

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Speaker 1: know where the limit is. So many of us are

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Speaker 1: so worried about failing that we don't even find out

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Speaker 1: where our limits are. That's such a good mess. I

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Speaker 1: got to read your book. Okay, while you were at Westwood,

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Speaker 1: you filed four Title nine lawsuits while you were a

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Speaker 1: coach there. This is inspiring and instructive because I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people feel like that's so hard to

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Speaker 1: do from within a space, but you challenged the school

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Speaker 1: to do better while remaining in good standing there and

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Speaker 1: keeping your job. How did you do that well?

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Speaker 2: Because I was glueless and passionate, and I was raised

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Speaker 2: to believe, you know, women and men are the same

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Speaker 2: and you can do anything. I've never been one who's

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Speaker 2: been funneled into a stereotype. I've never been very traditional.

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Speaker 2: So I got to Westwood and the uniforms were awful,

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Speaker 2: the budgets were awful, the practice times are awful, and

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Speaker 2: I was shocked. I was like, what's going on here?

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Speaker 2: And Title nine had just passed, so I, you know,

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Speaker 2: I never really thought about the consequences to me. And

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Speaker 2: people said you'll never get a job and everyone will

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Speaker 2: hate you, and it didn't really matter to me. It

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Speaker 2: was it was the right thing for us to have

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Speaker 2: practice times and not where the field hockey kills for

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Speaker 2: the basketball.

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Speaker 1: Team makes no sense, right, no, so and it.

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Speaker 2: Worked and they know it went. I got everything I wanted,

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Speaker 2: all right.

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Speaker 1: The important thing, too, is it's not just that it

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Speaker 1: was the right thing, but the legal thing. And we

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Speaker 1: need to use Title nine as long as we have it,

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Speaker 1: and we need to use it more than we are

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Speaker 1: to make sure people are in compliance, because it is

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Speaker 1: the law. You actually coached my friend Jackie McMullen, who

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Speaker 1: went on to be not just a great hooper but

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Speaker 1: a legendary sports writer and an opponent of mine for

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Speaker 1: years on around the Horn, who gave me great advice

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Speaker 1: and mentored me in a lot of ways. So what

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Speaker 1: was Jackie like as a high school kid? Could you

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Speaker 1: see future Jackie in there?

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Speaker 2: Yes, Jackie? So Jackie wrote the Fluid in my book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it I cried when I read it. I mean

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Speaker 2: because I think her writing is off the charts and

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Speaker 2: her memory is very different than my memory. But like

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Speaker 2: she's she's so special. She's a pioneer. She's broken through Glassdale,

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Speaker 2: as everyone knows. And I like to finally say, she

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Speaker 2: didn't know how to write to I coached her. That's

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Speaker 2: but so far that's work for We have stayed very

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Speaker 2: very close friends. And she's just she's a fighter. She's passionate,

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Speaker 2: she's confident, yet inside she sort of still deals with

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Speaker 2: what we all deal with is some insecurities on this level.

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Speaker 2: Although you know, and she's just such a hard worker

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Speaker 2: that you know she's gonna make gold out of anything.

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Speaker 2: She tried. That's just that good.

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Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated by this because there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways when I look back to myself as a

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Speaker 1: young person and I'm like, oh, there, I was already

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Speaker 1: me in so many ways, right, you know, I was

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Speaker 1: to your point about title nine. I was petitioning my

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Speaker 1: school to be able to take pass failed gym before

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Speaker 1: school because I was achieving all the things that the

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Speaker 1: law required of gym class by my three varsity sports,

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Speaker 1: and it was taking up a class in my school

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Speaker 1: day that I wanted for band and course, and I

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Speaker 1: already didn't have a lunch and why am I going

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Speaker 1: to pe class? And so I filed report with the

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Speaker 1: school and demanded that I should be allowed to take

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Speaker 1: it before like all this Like I'm like, who is

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Speaker 1: that kid? It's me And I was always in there.

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Speaker 1: But I wonder how often you're coaching and you instead

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Speaker 1: see someone maybe you're delighted to find that they become

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Speaker 1: a very different person later in life. How often do

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Speaker 1: the kids you coached in high school come back and

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Speaker 1: you're like, you are so different than the kid that

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Speaker 1: you were.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I I was one of those people

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Speaker 2: that just loved my I was loved being a high

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Speaker 2: school teacher and coach and never even wanted to go

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Speaker 2: to college. And then I arrived at Harvard. And I

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Speaker 2: grew up near Harvard and had this really ugly opinion

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Speaker 2: of Harvard, like they're entitled, they're white, they're rich.

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Speaker 1: They're they're not Cornell.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they don't like, they're not good to women

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Speaker 2: and blah blah, and they're not quite nice. But it

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Speaker 2: was the opposite of that. And so the women I

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Speaker 2: got at Harvard, probably one of my greatest satisfactions is

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Speaker 2: they changed so much from when they're freshmen too when

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Speaker 2: they're seniors. I was convinced to write a book. I'm

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Speaker 2: not a writer. I didn't think I had anything to say,

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Speaker 2: But here I have all these forty years of fifty

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Speaker 2: one years, including high school, of women that have just

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Speaker 2: they're a WHOSU in this country professionally, and they will

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Speaker 2: tell you a lot of what they learned and accomplished

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Speaker 2: came from playing basketball and learning life skills. You know,

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Speaker 2: success and failure when you're playing a sport.

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Speaker 1: From you, you could say it from you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I thought everybody did what I did. So that's

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Speaker 2: why I didn't want to write a book. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: every program, every coach does this. This is not true,

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Speaker 2: I guess.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about Harvard. They come calling, they're looking

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Speaker 1: for a new head women's basketball coach. I want to

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Speaker 1: hear how indoor tennis courts led to you spending forty

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Speaker 1: years in Cambridge.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is where I just came from to this.

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Speaker 2: My reason for living is tennis. I'm just saying, not

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Speaker 2: synchronized swimming and not even basketball. Yeah, And I was

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Speaker 2: paying an on the future salary into a courts were

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Speaker 2: just really expensive. So I didn't have any aspirations to

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Speaker 2: be a college coach. So I got invited because I

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Speaker 2: was the local successful coach. And when they invited me

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Speaker 2: to apply, I'm like, Harvard, No, do they even have

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Speaker 2: a basketball team? That's what I got, And so then

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Speaker 2: I went over. I was guilted into you at least

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Speaker 2: need to go on your interview, and in one day's

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Speaker 2: time I fell in love with Harvard. I just the

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Speaker 2: energy on the campus, the student athletes I met. I

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Speaker 2: then after a seven eight hour day of interviews, I

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Speaker 2: wanted the job so bad and I was the only

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Speaker 2: person candidate who didn't coach college or play college. So

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Speaker 2: I didn't think I had a show, and I filed lawsuits,

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Speaker 2: so I didn't think I had a chance in heck

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Speaker 2: of getting the job, and I was surprised when I

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Speaker 2: got it.

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Speaker 1: But you buried the lead during that visit. You spotted

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Speaker 1: the any tennis courts and you were like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: could use the for free. I'm in. Although the perks

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Speaker 1: of the job are a lot of times the big draw.

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Speaker 1: Of course it's another job, but the free tennis courts.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it. Let's start with the big, the big one.

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Speaker 1: Your ninety eight team, the first number sixteen seed to

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Speaker 1: upset a number one seed, and the men's or women's

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Speaker 1: NCAA tournament still the only time it's happened on the

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Speaker 1: women's side. You beat Stanford seventy one sixty seven. And

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Speaker 1: before we get to that game, I heard you say

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Speaker 1: in an interview that that ninety eight win actually happened

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Speaker 1: as a result of a foundation that you built in

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Speaker 1: the ninety seven tournament. Can you tell us about that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, when we went to we were paired up with

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Speaker 2: North Carolina, and in my opinion, in lots of people's opinion,

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Speaker 2: North Carolina might have been the all athletic team of

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Speaker 2: the world of the country that year, the only team

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Speaker 2: that I felt we didn't match up that well with.

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Speaker 1: Marion jones the black guard. That's so unfair.

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Speaker 2: It was kind of fast, yeah, a little plink guard

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Speaker 2: not quite as fast, and I think we were down

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Speaker 2: eighteen zero twenty zero. My poor point guard was trying

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Speaker 2: to get it across half court past Marian Joneson was

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00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,920
Speaker 2: not doing a very good job, and she kept looking

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Speaker 2: over Kathy call the time up, and I turned away

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Speaker 2: because I didn't really have any suggestions for her. It

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Speaker 2: was like a near impossible situation. But surprisingly enough, at halftime,

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Speaker 2: coaches gather up inside the locker room. My team goes

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Speaker 2: in to talk about strategies to get better make adjustments

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Speaker 2: in the second half, and I overheard my team truly, truly,

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Speaker 2: truly believing that they could beat North Carolina. Now I

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Speaker 2: think I can win every game I coach. That was

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Speaker 2: one I may have hesitated on. I was so astounded

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Speaker 2: by their confidence and very proud that I had given

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Speaker 2: them this ability to believe in themselves. So we coaches

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Speaker 2: went in and I didn't say a whole lot, and

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Speaker 2: I said, let's not wreck what they believe can happen,

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Speaker 2: and we met their starts day in. They pressed us

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Speaker 2: the whole second half. I think we lost by eighteen

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Speaker 2: or so, which was a win.

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Speaker 1: But on scored them in the second half. So you

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Speaker 1: won the second half, but the second.

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Speaker 2: Half, and not on my coaching Sarah.

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Speaker 1: On their belief, Yeah, on their So then that team

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Speaker 1: not the exact same team, but a lot of those pieces.

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Speaker 1: And you show up in ninety eight and now you've

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Speaker 1: got this opportunity against Stanford. What do you remember about

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Speaker 1: the lead up to that game and what you told

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Speaker 1: your team to tell them, what would they need to

389
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Speaker 1: do and how would you pull off the victory?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Again, I do a lot of sports psychology with

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Speaker 2: my teams. I don't use sports psychology when there's a problem.

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Speaker 2: I do it to develop life skills like concentration, confidence, visualization, meditation, affirmations.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've done it all and again sometimes a

394
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Speaker 2: lot of my players just roll their off. So we

395
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,760
Speaker 2: had years of using a lot of that stuff, you know,

396
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Speaker 2: and it works for some, it doesn't work for others.

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Speaker 2: And it worked for collectively this group and my captain's

398
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Speaker 2: Alison Feaster, which people know, and then a young woman,

399
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Speaker 2: Megan basil Song. They were great, great, great leaders, and

400
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:25,399
Speaker 2: Alison's superpower was she had an ability to make all

401
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,119
Speaker 2: of our teammates better. And so I mean I would

402
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 2: credit their leadership and their hard work and all the

403
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 2: work we've done all year, the buy in that they

404
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,680
Speaker 2: all had on confidence and believing in yourself and drinking

405
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,200
Speaker 2: my punch. And it was the perfect storm of We

406
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,399
Speaker 2: matched up really well with Stanford. We were dressed identically

407
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,479
Speaker 2: uniforms and warm ups, so when we went on, we

408
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 2: all had the same warmups. It was thirty basketball players. Yeah,

409
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,920
Speaker 2: a riot. It was a perfect for us.

410
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Speaker 1: Alison Feaster, who we now of course know, went on

411
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 1: to room with Don Staley in the w and is

412
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 1: involved in a whole bunch of projects now. But I wonder,

413
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Speaker 1: and I mean talk about a big game. Thirty five points,

414
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Speaker 1: thirteen rebounds in that win for Feaster, and she led

415
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 1: you guys in so many ways throughout that season. But

416
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Speaker 1: how old do you feel watching Alison Feaster's daughter in

417
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 1: the tournament, Sarah Strong at Yukon in the tournament this season?

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Speaker 2: Feel very very old? Thank you, Sarah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, no, listen, there's people that I covered in

420
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 1: the majors and then I hear their like younger kid

421
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 1: with the junior on the name is now in the pros,

422
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Speaker 1: And I'm like, how old am I getting? Jesus Sarah

423
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Speaker 1: Strong's so fun to watch, though, I imagine you still

424
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 1: get calls every year about that upset, do you? Both

425
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,440
Speaker 1: from media but maybe also from like low seeded teams

426
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,479
Speaker 1: that want some Kathy Delaney Smith genius to tell their

427
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:53,959
Speaker 1: team about how they can upset.

428
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I do get a lot of This year, I

429
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 2: didn't get very many, but up until this year, yeah,

430
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 2: I would get a lot of the sixteen seeds would

431
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 2: call and say what did you do?

432
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Speaker 1: But I think on the men's side too, Yeah, yeah.

433
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been you know, a lot of stories and

434
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 2: I think they can read it. And it's twenty five

435
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,640
Speaker 2: years ago. Things are different now. Actually.

436
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 1: I mean I would bring you into my locker room

437
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 1: in a second if I was one of those teams

438
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: to tell them it's been done. By the time you

439
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 1: retired in twenty twenty two, you were the winningest head

440
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 1: coach in IVY League history of either gender six hundred

441
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 1: thirty and four hundred and thirty four record, three hundred

442
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: and sixty seven and one sixty eight in IVY League play.

443
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 1: You led the program to twelve twenty win seasons, eleven

444
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 1: IVY titles, sixteen postseason appearances, and a five hundred record.

445
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 1: Are better than thirty one of your last thirty three seasons,

446
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: one point of contention for me. Eleven IVY titles, But

447
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: you never won the IVY Championship tournament. How did that happen?

448
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 2: All right, Sarah, you know I love your podcast, but

449
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 2: you're really falling off the pedestal, right now. Uh oh, yeah, no,

450
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 2: there was, so there was. I remember we fought for

451
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: a tournament for my entire forty years. I was there. Yeah,

452
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 2: I'm not a big fan of a fourteen tournament. I

453
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 2: still think there should be eight teams. I actually struggled

454
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 2: with the four teams and only played it in at

455
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 2: once I believe.

456
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:12,959
Speaker 1: Oh really it's that recent.

457
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I the one I realized that there was

458
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 2: a tournament, and we beat Pinnell for the IVY Tournament Championship.

459
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: That's probably why I forgot about it, Yes, of course,

460
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: very the memory. Well, the reason I asked that is

461
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 1: because in all the conversation about Harvard making it this year,

462
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 1: they kept pointing out the first time ever Harvard women

463
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: winning the IVY League tournament championship, and I'm like, how

464
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,719
Speaker 1: is it possible that Kathy somehow won eleven IVY titles

465
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: but never you know, must have won the regular season

466
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: and I didn't. Okay, so they're mispleading me too.

467
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 2: So I think I played in two. Okay, that's the most.

468
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: But still still a very recent edition. Okay, yeah, you're

469
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: off the hook. I'm on the book for my research

470
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 1: and for trusting the media full of lies as always right, misleading.

471
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: How did you approach teaching smarty pants kids with no

472
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: scholarships differently than you might had you been at a

473
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: big program?

474
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I probably so. I have this principle

475
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,959
Speaker 2: called to act as if it's in my book. Everyone

476
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 2: wanted me to name the book Act as if I'm

477
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 2: sort of famous for that, and so that is. It's

478
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: not faked till you make it, but it's similar. It's

479
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: just a little more proactive, and I acted as if

480
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 2: I belonged at Harvard. However, inside I was very intimidated

481
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 2: and very curious about these nerds. Yes you Sarah, that

482
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: I'm going to coach, And the opposite is true. You know,

483
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 2: they're books smart, but they're life stupid. I'm sorry, I'm

484
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 2: not saying they're life stupid, but sometimes, yeah, there's lots

485
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 2: they could learn. And they are the reason I stayed

486
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: at Harvard for forty years. So there, you know. And

487
00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: are there some that are too smart? Hell? Yes, yeah,

488
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 2: let's unwind you a little bit. I mean I would

489
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: have to slap them and say, stop trying to be perfect,

490
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: you know, let's celebrate your mistakes a little bit here.

491
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 2: That's that's the biggest challenge I think. Right in IVY.

492
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: League, Yeah, you got into meditation training too, right, and

493
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: helping that bridge this gap for them, getting out of

494
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: that mindset of maybe overachieving type A control and into

495
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: the flow of the game.

496
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 2: Yes, and not everyone buys in, And so they all

497
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: went through the motions because I would take your head

498
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,479
Speaker 2: off if they didn't. But like so, we would do

499
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 2: like a visual meditation before every game. And then once

500
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: at Darmouth, I was so into it because I still

501
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 2: I'm a big believer in meditation. Yeah, and I was

502
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: doing it and verbalizing the visualization and everyone my eyes

503
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 2: were closed and everyone snuck out of the locker room

504
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: and I did not know it. And when I finished

505
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: the visualization and opened my eyes, there was not a

506
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 2: player in the law.

507
00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was punky kids.

508
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 2: They won the games so they didn't get in trouble.

509
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: How often did you get calls to go elsewhere? You said,

510
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: the kids are why you stayed there. How close were

511
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: you to ever leaving?

512
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 2: Never? Close to leaving? Never? And I probably told everybody

513
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 2: that I had probably one or two offers, and then

514
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: then I didn't because everyone I just think there was

515
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: no better place for me than Harvard. And I come

516
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 2: from a very big family and they're all around here,

517
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 2: and this is where I wanted to stay. Money didn't matter,

518
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: It didn't make a great salary. Sorry Harvard.

519
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean sometimes they have endowed positions where it's

520
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: better than other places. Then other mid majors are smaller

521
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: in terms of performance, but still not the same as

522
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: the down stay multi multi millions at South Carolina. Now,

523
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: your path at Harvard looked a little like your path

524
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: at Westwood. You started out and it was a struggle,

525
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: but only a couple of seasons in you were really

526
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: starting to make waves. When did you realize you were

527
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: building something special? Not just having success, but I think

528
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: I want to be a part of this and stay

529
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: here and keep building. How long did it t to.

530
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 2: I knew probably my first title three years in that

531
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: I loved the challenges of coaching that kind of a

532
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 2: student athlete, and I view so I'm a very present person.

533
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: So I'm never like I wonder if I can win

534
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 2: the title next year. I'm like, I'm going to take

535
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 2: here today today. You know, I want to have a

536
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: I want to have a great practice today. And I

537
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: would get cranky and miserable when my practices were bad,

538
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: never mind you know, playing poorly in a game. I

539
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 2: think staying present has kept me off of social media

540
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: and really happy. I might be one of the happiest

541
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: people you ever meet.

542
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: I love that. What's the best perk of being at

543
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: Harvard for forty years? Is it the incredible people who

544
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 1: come on campus and speak? Is it get to tell

545
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: everyone you're from HAVD. What's the is it the campus?

546
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: Is it the access to things? What did you love

547
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: the most about that part of it that was outside

548
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: of basketball.

549
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 2: I love the I love the student athletes, and I

550
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: loved I loved a lot of the people that worked

551
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: at Harvard. Not all of them, for sure, the energy

552
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: on the campus, this unspoken feeling that you are among

553
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,959
Speaker 2: people who are going to accomplish great things. I just

554
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: always felt that, and so people would say, how do

555
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: you recruit when there's no scholarships and there's no this,

556
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: And I'm like, because what's at Harvard is very special

557
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: and if you take advantage of it. And I think

558
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: that is true of all of the IVY League. I

559
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: just think Harvard's location, you know, with the river runs

560
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 2: through it and Boston is so fond and our accents

561
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: are fabulous.

562
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: How did it feel watching them back at the tournament

563
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: this year? Nerves, excitement, jealousy that you weren't on the sideline.

564
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: No jealousy whatsoever. I did not. I don't want to

565
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: draw a last second play. I think the tank emptied

566
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: at six one years, quite honestly.

567
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: But I think they've had a good run.

568
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they did a good job. I heartbroken

569
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 2: that they didn't have their best game in the loss.

570
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: That broke my heart.

571
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: Well, hopefully it's the beginning of another run for them.

572
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: You know. I listened to an interview did you talked

573
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: about players coming back to you later in life and

574
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: saying how much they learned from you. You just talked

575
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: about with the book, how many players came back and said, coach,

576
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: your wisdom needs to be shared. But they also sometimes

577
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: talked about how they hated you when they played for you. Now,

578
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: I think hate might be too extreme. You're probably being

579
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: trd on yourself, but safe to say you took a

580
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: bit of a tough love approach.

581
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I my self criticism is I was

582
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: too nice. I was like, oh, you're tired. They pulled

583
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: an all lighter and I would say. I had assistant

584
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 2: coaches who would come from other programs and they were like, hey,

585
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: kill um. So I mean, there's never a one size

586
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: fits so I and I have been blessed one I

587
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: will say my breast cancer journey. You know, there are

588
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: people who thought I was going to die and came

589
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: out of the woodwork and tell me, you know, how

590
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: much they loved me and whatever. I think. That was

591
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: shocking to me because I always thought, you know, no,

592
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: everyone criticizes you. Everyone can do We live in a

593
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: culture where everyone can do our job better than we can.

594
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 2: Of course, it's the single only job in the world

595
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: where everyone can coach better than we can. Including the players.

596
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: So and then in my retirement, I have I zoomed

597
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: every player I ever coached to write the book, and

598
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: I was blown away by our conversations. And retirement for

599
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 2: me is I say yes to everything and everybody. It's

600
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: so fun.

601
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: I love that. I feel like there's some pretty good

602
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: life lessons to be learned from understanding the importance of

603
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: being challenged to do better, to be better, to work harder,

604
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: and that in the moment it sucks, and then later

605
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: you're so grateful for the people who pushed you. And

606
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: that is the sign of a great coach. But also

607
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: I think the sign of a good athlete is someone

608
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: who can do it. You told a story on one

609
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: of the interviews that was mind blowing about your top player,

610
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: straight A's at Harvard, top scorer on the team, did

611
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: not try hard, and when you said to her, I

612
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: need you to work hard, she said, I've gotten this far,

613
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: have it worked hard a day in my life? Why

614
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: would I start now? And you had her leave the

615
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: team your top scorer.

616
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean.

617
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: That's wild.

618
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: I know where did I get the courage to do

619
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: that and be three and twenty five that year?

620
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: We love it I didn't that part wasn't part of

621
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: the other interview important part. But I mean what you

622
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: said is right, one bad apple. Right. If your best

623
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: player is showing the worst habits, that trickles down and

624
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: the people who can't afford not to try, who can't

625
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: afford to be lazy, start to get that way, and

626
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: now the whole team is sunk. I love your act

627
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: as if. I think fake it till you make it

628
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: as a decent one. I've used that phrase a lot,

629
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: especially in my career, where you've got to like start

630
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: without any support or fans or belief, and you're kind

631
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: of like selling a house, except it to you. Everyone.

632
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: Isn't this so wonderful?

633
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: You know?

634
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: Like even if I know that there's a bunch of

635
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: shit in the basement, I'm not telling you. I'm just

636
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: gonna tell you how great it is. Right, But act

637
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: as if is so great because I think it's essentially

638
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: mind over matter. It's basically when I'm in a tough

639
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: situation and I know it's not something I want to do.

640
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: If I say, act as if you loved holding a

641
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: giant snake, because I want to be someone who's not

642
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: afraid act as if you're not afraid of bungee jumping,

643
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: because I want to be someone who's not afraid of

644
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: anything in life. And if you have the power of

645
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: your mind to do that, I mean, I beg you

646
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: the examples. What's an example from your book of using

647
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: that act as if when it really stood out to you.

648
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 2: I could give you a million, but I'll give you two.

649
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: So backtball wise was Stanford. It was act as if,

650
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: you know, because we didn't get a lot of respect.

651
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: People are going, did you unpack your suitcase? Are you

652
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: reading books tonight? Yeah? Like we really were a mid

653
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: major that no one knew about, so we had to

654
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: act as if. But I have used it healing. I've

655
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 2: had several back surgeries, and you act as if you

656
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: feel strong. You act as if you're feeling well, and

657
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: surprisingly you will feel better more quickly. You will feet

658
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: stronger and get stronger more quickly. It's very powerful. I'm

659
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: a big believer in it.

660
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, not to go to the complete extreme, but like

661
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: if you think about monks who are able to sit

662
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: in one position for hours at a time, or even

663
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: self immolating to the to the furthest extreme of sitting

664
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: quietly while aflame. It's an idea of like you just

665
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: tell your body I'm in charge of you instead of

666
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: the other way around, And in a lot of ways

667
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: it could be really powerful. I remember listening to Kristin Press,

668
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: the soccer player, in an interview and saying, sometimes when

669
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: she's in the middle of the hardest workout possible, the

670
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: wind sprints and all the strength and all the other stuff,

671
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: she just focuses on her pinky and she's like, Oh,

672
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: what is my pinky to feeling right now? How does

673
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: my pinky toe feel? Is it warm? Is it cold?

674
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: Is it hurting?

675
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: Is it?

676
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: And that focus somewhere else pulls her mind away from

677
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: the parts of her that are working hard. And it's

678
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: really amazing what our minds can do if we if

679
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,919
Speaker 1: we think about it. Let's talk about your your book

680
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 1: written Wit, which I'm one thousand percent reading after this interview.

681
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: It came out in January. It's described as a memoir

682
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: meets leadership and action, inspired by John Wooden and the

683
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: courageous spirit of Brene Browns Darren Greatly, I'm already sold

684
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: on this, but tell me especially, I'm interested in how

685
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: Brene's messages come through.

686
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: So I have always coached and led non traditionally, like

687
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: at Harvard, I was highly criticized because I wanted my

688
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 2: players to call Kathy in the early eighties, and that

689
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: was you'll get no respect. And I'm like, well, why

690
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: would I get respect just because someone's saying coach and

691
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 2: mostly they can't remember my name, that's why they're saying coach. Like, so,

692
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: I'm just non traditional and so I used my instincts

693
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 2: and I used relational leadership and it has just served

694
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: me well. However, I was very vulnerable. I was very

695
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: I would be the first one. I'll be in practice,

696
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 2: I'll go on and on about teaching a drill, and

697
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 2: I'll make a mistake, you know, and a lot of coaches,

698
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: our egos sort of want to hide that mistake. And

699
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: I was the opposite. I was like, shit, I just

700
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 2: taught that wrong and then I fixed it. And in

701
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: asking my players why they drank my puncher, why my

702
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: leadership was so important to them, they said, because you

703
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: were genuine, genuine, and you were authentic, and that wrong

704
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: true with me. And that's Brene Brown's shick. That's what

705
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 2: I have a girl crush on her because she's you know,

706
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: she was the first one to come out and change male,

707
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 2: white male traditional hierarchy leadership, which desperately needs to be

708
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: changed in our world.

709
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 1: So is it true that the book was originally titled

710
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: get your Head out of your Ass because You're missing Out?

711
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: And why did you change the title?

712
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: I don't know these stupid people that made me change.

713
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm not gonna lie. Grittin Wit sounds like another

714
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,439
Speaker 1: coaching book. Get your Head out of your Ass because

715
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: You're missing Out sounds like the first one. I'm picking

716
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: up off the shelf.

717
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: Thank you, Sarah. I think we are aligned. I'm gonna

718
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie to.

719
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: You second release. Try it with the other titles. See

720
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: what happens.

721
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 2: Well, I think we're going to have a book too,

722
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: because everyone, hey, you forgot this story, Kathy, You've got

723
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 2: this story right. So they wanted me to not rule

724
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 2: out thirteen year old girls. They think it's an easy

725
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 2: it's very easy read. There's some funny stories, and there's

726
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: a message, you know, for parents and coaches and leaders

727
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 2: and kids and young girls who you know are have

728
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 2: fluctuating levels of confidence. So they thought the foul language

729
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 2: would rule them out. And then they said, well, academically,

730
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: you know, Harvard Coop's not going to put it in

731
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 2: their bookstore. Well, that's a.

732
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: Problem all these years, Harvard, don't you don't you ower

733
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: a title of a book with ass in the name.

734
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 1: I do love it, though, because I think the point

735
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: of that was what we talked about earlier, with just

736
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: getting women the confidence to decide that they could take

737
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: something on even if they aren't quite ready, even if

738
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: they're not the very best and the most of an expert.

739
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: But you'll miss out if you're so desperate to be

740
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: perfect or have it all right and figured out.

741
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you're brilliant, you are.

742
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: You are slip through the cracks. Yeah, Kathy was so

743
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 1: great to talk to you. I'm just I can't wait

744
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: to read your book. I really I loved prepping for

745
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: this interview and learning from you, just from Afar so

746
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: even more so, and getting to talk to you in person.

747
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for the time.

748
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: It was great. I love you podcast. I'm a big fan.

749
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: I love it.

750
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: Thanks again to Kathy for taking the time. I absolutely

751
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: loved our chat. We got to take another break when

752
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: we come back. A pregame stroke of genius. We draw

753
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: your attention to what's easyl e the best way to relax,

754
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: aren't you glad I'm making all these funds? Welcome back slices.

755
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: We love that you're listening, but we want you to

756
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: get in the game every day too. So here's our

757
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 1: good game play of the day. Pick up a copy

758
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 1: of Kathy's book Grit and Wit Empowering Lives and Leaders.

759
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: We know we're going to we'll link to it in

760
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: the show notes, and you know we love to hear

761
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,439
Speaker 1: from you. To hit us up on email. Good game

762
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: at wondermedianetwork dot com, and don't forget to subscribe, rate

763
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: and review It's Easy slices. Watch Coloring, Painting and finding

764
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: your Inner Artist, rating ten out of ten. Destressing and

765
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 1: nerve calming stars review. We learned before Sunday South Carolina

766
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: game that star Chloe Kits turns to colored pencils and

767
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: coloring books before games to get herself in the right headspace.

768
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: Here a good game. We understand the power of a

769
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: little arts and time. Producer Mish recently took a pottery class.

770
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: I recently went to a painting class and painted one

771
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: of my dogs. And producer Alex is just an amazing artist.

772
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: You can actually buy her stuff on Etsy. Her shop

773
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: is called Azi Artwork. So shout out to you Chloe

774
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 1: for hitting the books coloring books, and to all you slices.

775
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: Go find an artistic outlet this week. Now it's your

776
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: turn rate and review. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.

777
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: Good game, Kathy, Good game, Chloe, kimk you self doubt.

778
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: You know, if you're not group chatting battle plans to

779
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: journals or accidentally firing then rehiring nuclear safety experts, then

780
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 1: you're already doing better than some of the most powerful

781
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 1: men in America. Act as if you got this because

782
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,280
Speaker 1: you do. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart

783
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.

784
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

785
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,

786
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 1: our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive

787
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: producer a Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rutterer.

788
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez, and Grace Lynch.

789
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Lucy Jones. And I'm your host,

790
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: Sarah Spain