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Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph

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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. Now my mom and my mom

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Speaker 1: and breathing, breathing, breathing, not breathing, not breathing. You have

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Speaker 1: help on the world. We're going to help your mother.

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Speaker 1: Only right now. Imagine coming home in the evening and

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Speaker 1: you call out, hey, where is everybody? Anybody home? And

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Speaker 1: you walk through the home. You walk through your house,

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Speaker 1: you know it by heart. You don't have to turn

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Speaker 1: on all the lights, and you look and you look

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Speaker 1: from room to room. Nobody's there until you get to

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Speaker 1: your mom's room and you find your mom and you

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Speaker 1: find out why she's not answering and why she didn't

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Speaker 1: come to the door. She's dead, covered in blood, naked,

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Speaker 1: lying on her bed. Clearly a horrible, horrible struggle has occurred,

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Speaker 1: and the killer has rammed a waste basket over her

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Speaker 1: head and you can't even process it. This is a

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Speaker 1: story of Norah Jackson, a girl who finds her mother dead.

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Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. What happened to Jennifer? What happened to

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Speaker 1: Norah's mom? The mystery goes on. I want to expose

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Speaker 1: the facts as we know them and joining me a

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Speaker 1: very special guest. I want you to meet her. Lisa

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Speaker 1: Hickman has written the book, literally written the book on

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Speaker 1: this murder mystery, Stranger to Truth, and it is awesome.

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Speaker 1: First I heard about it, then I got it on

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Speaker 1: Amazon dot Com and I read it immediately and couldn't

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Speaker 1: put it down. I mean, even the cover is captivating

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Speaker 1: to me, even the cover. Lisa, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. I mean, that's an awesome book, the way

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Speaker 1: you compilated all the facts. But what's interesting to me

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Speaker 1: is I described just then the way Nora came in.

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Speaker 1: Nora Jackson came in and found her mother. But actually

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Speaker 1: that night there's a little more to the story of

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Speaker 1: her coming in. Also with me the Duke Alan Duke

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Speaker 1: joining me out of l A Alan. She comes home.

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Speaker 1: She's been out with her friends that night, and I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about the daughter Nora, and as spelled n O.

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Speaker 1: You are that that's Nora correct, because sometimes I've heard

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Speaker 1: her pronounced Nora. Lisa, is it Nora or Nora? Nora

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Speaker 1: pronunciation is the same as it's a slightly different spell.

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Speaker 1: I guess, gotcha. So she had been out with her

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Speaker 1: friends that night, Alan, and they had been to some

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Speaker 1: Italian festival. They live in the Memphis area, and they

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Speaker 1: have been out partying and drinking and having a good time.

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Speaker 1: So she gets home and immediately perceives that there has

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Speaker 1: been a burglary, that something's not right with the entry way.

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Speaker 1: Did you get that part? Alan? She didn't just walk in.

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Speaker 1: She knew immediately that the home had been burglarized. Did

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Speaker 1: you did you see that point? Yes, something that didn't

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Speaker 1: seem right according to what she said. What was it? Lisa?

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Speaker 1: So when she comes home, she doesn't just walk in,

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Speaker 1: and nobody answers it's not exactly how it happened when

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Speaker 1: she drove in. How did she know someone had been

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Speaker 1: in the home? I think, um, the glass. There was

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Speaker 1: glass all over the kitchen floor, and I believe that's

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Speaker 1: what the first thing that let her know something was

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Speaker 1: a myth she came in. That's right, there was glass.

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Speaker 1: There was one of those um doors between the garage

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Speaker 1: and the kitchen that you could I think, break through

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Speaker 1: and reach in and unlock it right there. That indicates

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Speaker 1: very strongly it's someone that knows the family. It could

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Speaker 1: be a neighbor, it could be a delivery person because

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Speaker 1: that door was not visible from outside. You had to

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Speaker 1: know to get into the garage, and there was something

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Speaker 1: hinky about the lock. You had to know how to

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Speaker 1: do it. Am I right on that? Am I remembering correctly? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: They described it as a secret butterfly lock that you

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Speaker 1: would have had you have reached your arm through the

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Speaker 1: hole that was in the glass and unlock it. And

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Speaker 1: you would had to have known it was there to

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Speaker 1: even have any idea that's what you would do. So

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Speaker 1: it was a very peculiar place question. Yeah, the glass,

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Speaker 1: the glass, The glass was on the in the um

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Speaker 1: on the kitchen floor, and it was a pretty pretty

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Speaker 1: um defined round hole UM in the center pane of

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Speaker 1: that dark where somebody punched through. Okay, all right, so

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Speaker 1: she comes in and she immediately sees that has happened.

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Speaker 1: Then where does she go to? Lisa? And I believe

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Speaker 1: she went down the hallway to toward her mother's bedroom

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Speaker 1: and um that was up of course when she discovered

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Speaker 1: her mother's body, and it was twilight, so it was

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Speaker 1: um that was such early morning hours. It was sort

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Speaker 1: of semi dark in the house. Now didn't she run?

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Speaker 1: Didn't she run to a neighbor and said, I think

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Speaker 1: someone's broken in our house, and the neighbor comes with us.

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Speaker 1: After she actually been in her mother's bedroom, she ran

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Speaker 1: across the street and asked them to screaming at their

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Speaker 1: front door and asked them to help her that there

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Speaker 1: had been an intruder in their house. And that's when

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Speaker 1: the neighbor grabbed his gun and um, you know, walked

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Speaker 1: ahead of her for a while across the street, and

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Speaker 1: then she actually ran in in front of him. That

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Speaker 1: was a real problem for the why minute she got

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Speaker 1: in front of the neighbor who had the gun because

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Speaker 1: she ran in front of him. So they go in

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Speaker 1: and they find the mom. Allan, the description of the

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Speaker 1: crime scene is gruesome. Please describe the photos that I

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Speaker 1: saw blood, the mother laying with no clothing on the

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Speaker 1: bed and just an awful lot of blood. Is that

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Speaker 1: the best way to say at Lisa? Yes, And she

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Speaker 1: actually was on the floor when she was found, Um

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Speaker 1: at the footboo at the foot bed or the you know,

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Speaker 1: towards the bottom of the bed, but on the floor.

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Speaker 1: Her head was close to the door. What was it immediate?

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Speaker 1: Should it immediately have been apparent that she had been

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Speaker 1: stabbed or could it have been you would assume that

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Speaker 1: she had just been shot or was that obvious? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think anybody who just glanced in that room would

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Speaker 1: have just seen all the blood and they would not

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Speaker 1: have had any ideas it was she'd been stabbed or

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Speaker 1: murder shot. There's just blood everywhere, so I wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: it would be immediately apparent. Now, as a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: it turns out the mom has been stabbed nearly thirty times.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot all around the torso neck, face. Jennifer

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Speaker 1: just complete, eatly, completely destroyed. Everything about her is covered

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Speaker 1: in stabs, including defensive stabs. Now, what has always intrigued

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Speaker 1: me is the fact that a wicker basket had been

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Speaker 1: shoved down over her head, over her face. Lisa and

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Speaker 1: a lot of um. I mean, I just made it

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Speaker 1: such a personal crime, uh that you know whoever it

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Speaker 1: committed this, I did not want to see her and

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Speaker 1: her eyes were open. She was just thirty nine years old,

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Speaker 1: just absolutely beautiful, is stunning, vivacious. A successful bond trader

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Speaker 1: can't be an idiot to do that, and a triathlete.

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Speaker 1: This is the mother, the thirty nine year old mother

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Speaker 1: found stab dead and I mentioned thirty times, it was

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Speaker 1: more like fifty times. Fifty stab wounds over fifty stab wounds.

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Speaker 1: There were so many stab wounds they could not count

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Speaker 1: them after a certain point because many of them overlapped

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Speaker 1: each other and the body was such a mess. They

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Speaker 1: know that it was over fifty stab wounds. At that point,

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Speaker 1: what happens to Nora because her her dad's already dead.

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Speaker 1: Her dad was shot. Let's see about a year before that,

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Speaker 1: Nasmi was his name now. The dad and Jennifer had

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Speaker 1: been living apart for a period of time, several years.

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Speaker 1: They were estranged. He was a successful business owner. He

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Speaker 1: owned several businesses in the Memphis area, and he was

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Speaker 1: at one of them one night and there was a

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Speaker 1: security surveillance camera and he's then he's in there and

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Speaker 1: you can see him, and an unknown assailant comes in,

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Speaker 1: manages to avoid the security camera, shoot him down execution style.

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Speaker 1: You can't tell who the person was, and leaves. There

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Speaker 1: is no attack, there is no theft, no burglary, nothing.

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Speaker 1: They come in, shoot him dead and leave. Then about

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Speaker 1: a year later, Jennifer is murdered. So this girl is

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Speaker 1: left without either a parent, Alan and a little bit

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Speaker 1: of an inheritance too. Why do you say things like that,

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Speaker 1: A little bit of an inheritance. It's only it's over

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Speaker 1: a million dollars. That's not an awful lot of money.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like you told me that your

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Speaker 1: dad for the railroad, as did mind. So I don't

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Speaker 1: know what planet you're living on, but a million dollars

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Speaker 1: is a lot of money. Alan, Earth to Alan before

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Speaker 1: we talk about the inheritance. That night, Lisa, what happened

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Speaker 1: to Nora? Where did she go? Well, by the time

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Speaker 1: the her neighbors had been over and um they called

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Speaker 1: the first responder, it was close to early morning, and

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Speaker 1: she UM, she sat on the front curb and talked

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Speaker 1: with the neighbors and UM and then eventually some friends

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Speaker 1: showed up and picked her up and she left with

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Speaker 1: him and UM drove around and UH just was and

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Speaker 1: she was on and off at the crime scene because

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Speaker 1: there were times when you know, she was confronted by

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Speaker 1: a lot of people showing up, relatives and friends of

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Speaker 1: her mother, and they would have, you know, various conversations.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true that she admitted that she was drinking

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Speaker 1: and smoking pot that night? She did admit that. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but she had been out and you know, so she

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Speaker 1: probably needed a couple of hours to cyber up. Yes. Um,

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Speaker 1: she did eventually, of course, ride downtown with um Detective Connie.

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Speaker 1: Just this and uh, she actually fell asleep. Um on

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Speaker 1: the ride down downtown. She was exhausted. Well well, well

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, she fell asleep in the car. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm projecting, Lisa. I know I'm projecting, and that's not

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Speaker 1: good when you're analyzing a crime or a crime scene.

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Speaker 1: But I remember two distinctly. After my fiancee was murdered.

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Speaker 1: There was no falling asleep, the shock and the just

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Speaker 1: trying to grasp and understand what was happening. There was

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Speaker 1: no sleeping. I remember even into the night, like one

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Speaker 1: or two o'clock in the morning. Um. Our family doctor

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Speaker 1: finally brought over some kind of sedative so I could

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Speaker 1: go to sleep. It didn't work. I was just so

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Speaker 1: strung out. So she fell asleep in the police car

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Speaker 1: after finding her mother's dead body. She did. Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: just weird. When did they notice the big cut on

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Speaker 1: her hand? That that they noticed that early? And um

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Speaker 1: they took photographs of it. Um when she was downtown

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Speaker 1: was detected Justice and um, like you know, she had

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Speaker 1: a she had for that A variety of different stories

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Speaker 1: as to how they cut occurred. What we were talking about,

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Speaker 1: Lisa Hickman, author of Stranger to the Truth about the

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Jackson murder, is the daughter had a huge cut

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Speaker 1: on her hand that cops had to notice. How did

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Speaker 1: she explain that away? Well, it was um actually covered

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Speaker 1: with some adhesive tape when by the time they were

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Speaker 1: at the police station, and um, they was never examined

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Speaker 1: underneath the tape. And she said that people were breaking

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Speaker 1: beer bottles at the Italian festival and that she um

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Speaker 1: tripped and cut it on one of the broken beer bottles,

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Speaker 1: And that's what she told Detective Justice. Did any of

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Speaker 1: her friends recall her tripping and cutting her hand, any

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Speaker 1: of the friends she was with that night, No, they

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Speaker 1: did not. Well, they really didn't have time to focus

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Speaker 1: on her tripping on and getting cut with a beer

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Speaker 1: bottle because of her of the mom, Jennifer's boyfriend, This

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Speaker 1: on again, off again boyfriend she had had called the

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Speaker 1: mom that very night. They had a very volatile relationship.

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Speaker 1: What was their relationship about the one the mother Jennifer

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Speaker 1: had been dating this guy. What do we know about him? Well,

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Speaker 1: he's a Methodist minister and um, at this point in

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Speaker 1: their relationship, just before the murder occurred, he was quite

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Speaker 1: insistent that they get married. He was he wanted um

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Speaker 1: to take it to the next level, and she was

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Speaker 1: hesitant to do that. Isn't that pushing the nuclear button?

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Speaker 1: I mean getting married? Well, what was the rush for him?

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Speaker 1: Apparently it was, you know, extremely important. And Jennifer, having

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Speaker 1: been married and divorced was twice by then, was you know,

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Speaker 1: reluctant to get married. And uh, it seems fairly content

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Speaker 1: to keep things as they were. So that led to

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Speaker 1: a number of breaking you know, breaking up and getting

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Speaker 1: back together. And that was a scenario at the time.

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Speaker 1: She had called even wanted to drive to he was

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Speaker 1: in Jackson, Tennessee, drive and uh see him for his birthday.

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Speaker 1: And um he was luke lukewarm to know about that idea.

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Speaker 1: And that very night he called her. Yeah, he was

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Speaker 1: having none of it. It was either get married or

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Speaker 1: I guess face his anger. He had tried and tried

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Speaker 1: to get her to get married. She wouldn't do it.

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Speaker 1: That night he called her. What was his excuse for

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Speaker 1: calling her. What did he say, Well, they never spoke. Um,

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Speaker 1: she didn't get the call, didn't take the call, and um,

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Speaker 1: we'll really never know what he was calling about. That

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Speaker 1: was about midnight. But he gave a story about why

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Speaker 1: he called. Didn't he say it was an accident like

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Speaker 1: a pocket dial? Um? He said he decided that it

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Speaker 1: was too late to be calling any hung up. He

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Speaker 1: was afraid she might be right? So what at? What time?

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Speaker 1: Did they place the time of death as best as

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Speaker 1: they could, Lisa, I believe they it was quite broad.

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Speaker 1: I want to say between one and three am there

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Speaker 1: was I wouldn't quite a window of time. And what

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Speaker 1: time was his phone call? Wasn't his phone call around twelve?

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Speaker 1: Around twelve? So just before the attack he's calling her

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Speaker 1: and he lived out of town, right, Yes, he was

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Speaker 1: in Jackson, Tennessee. Interesting, I mean, some would argue, some

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Speaker 1: would hypothesize that he was calling to make sure she

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Speaker 1: was at home before he came over. That could be

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Speaker 1: a very compelling argument. So police, of course, alan look

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Speaker 1: at the boyfriend, the X, the current spouse. That's where

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Speaker 1: they start every investigation because the statistics typically it's your

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Speaker 1: partner that kills you, sad but true, So they start

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Speaker 1: looking at this guy methodist minister. Right, Yeah, I'm wondering

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Speaker 1: why they weren't looking at the dead former husband Nasmi

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Speaker 1: who killed him? Because if just months earlier, or you're earlier,

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Speaker 1: one spouse is murdered and then another one is, don't

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Speaker 1: you just think they might be connected? Did they, Lisa?

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Speaker 1: Did they ever try to connect those two killings? I

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Speaker 1: do believe they looked into that, and um, they just

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Speaker 1: know there was just no evidence that um, you know,

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Speaker 1: connected the murders. Well, they couldn't find any evidence because

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Speaker 1: they never knew Alan who killed Nasmi. That still remains

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Speaker 1: a mystery. They have the killer on video, they have

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Speaker 1: well they have it in Missy Beavers too, but that

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean they've got him in jail. For Pete's sake,

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Speaker 1: they don't know, they don't know who did it. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's true, but the maybe there was some connection, I'm

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Speaker 1: just saying, and maybe they don't have a way of

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Speaker 1: knowing that. Well. I agree with you on that, Alan,

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Speaker 1: I agree. I mean it's just too coincidental that the

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Speaker 1: dad is murdered, there's no doubt whether it was an accident,

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Speaker 1: and the mother is murdered shortly thereafter. And it's no

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Speaker 1: accident that clearly we're both victor was of homicide. That's

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Speaker 1: just what one in a million. The reason we don't

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Speaker 1: know who murdered Nasmy Lisa Hickman. Can you see the

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Speaker 1: purps You can't. You can never see the perps face

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Speaker 1: in the in the ship, in the shooting death. Correct.

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Speaker 1: Are they disguised or they just keep their face away

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Speaker 1: from the camera. Right, just had UM acknowledge of where

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Speaker 1: the cameras were placed and UM able to avoid them. Okay,

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Speaker 1: right there, knew how to avoid the surveillance cameras. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So we've got the killer of Nasmy as a potential suspect.

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Speaker 1: We have the boyfriend who called her that night. Some

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Speaker 1: would argue to make sure she was home before he

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Speaker 1: showed up. There is a break in. Now, was there

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Speaker 1: any evidence of a sex attack on Jennifer? No, there

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Speaker 1: was not. Umm, although she was naked, that's true. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and there was a used find him in the room,

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Speaker 1: but um, nothing that that linked that to Jennifer. Okay,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, So she's in her

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Speaker 1: bedroom naked and there's a used condom and they don't

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Speaker 1: think there was a sex attack. The medical examiner, you know,

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Speaker 1: it ruled that there was not. The examiner placed the

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Speaker 1: time of death between twelve thirty am and five ten am.

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Speaker 1: Was um. That was So what Lisa Hickman is saying

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Speaker 1: in a very delicate manner, is that, regardless of her

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Speaker 1: being in her bedroom completely naked and there's a used

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Speaker 1: condom in there, if the medical examiner did a rape

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Speaker 1: kit and there's no evidence on the body, then either

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Speaker 1: all of that was left from another incident or it

300
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Speaker 1: was staged. There's the only two choices, because I'm telling you,

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Speaker 1: even I looking under a microscope can tell the difference

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Speaker 1: as to whether there's any indication sperm is there. It's

303
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Speaker 1: it's very clear under a microscope. So if the emmy

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Speaker 1: says no sex activity, the emmy is right. So forget

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Speaker 1: about that now. That leads me to another question. Was

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Speaker 1: anything stolen from the home, Lisa UM. I believe there

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00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 1: were a few items missing that some some eventually turned

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Speaker 1: up in a bin in the sun room. I think

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Speaker 1: her driver's license, but as far as any valuables, no,

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Speaker 1: and her driver's license in a ben. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: that Jennifer's driver's like when you say, Ben, are you

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Speaker 1: talking about a trash can? No, No, just like a

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Speaker 1: storage you know container. Um, some stuff was just kind

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Speaker 1: of strewn around. Okay, I find that very odd. There's

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Speaker 1: no sex attack, nothing is stolen, no jewelry, no money,

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Speaker 1: the DVD, DVD play, nothing like that. And her driver's

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Speaker 1: license is displaced. Okay. Let's I want to get back

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Speaker 1: to where Nora was that night. She's saying she's at

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Speaker 1: the Italian festival. That's confirmed. I still don't did anybody

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Speaker 1: confirm her falling on the beer ball? No, no one

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Speaker 1: did that, that was not confirmed. All right, What can

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Speaker 1: you tell me about her being at a walgrains buying

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Speaker 1: bandages that night? Lisa? Right, that was um, that was

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Speaker 1: all caught on surveillance. Um. And she uh just walked

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Speaker 1: in of course, and um, you know, as the the

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Speaker 1: fellow checking you know, checking out, um, first of all

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Speaker 1: offers of paper towels, and he gave her some and

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Speaker 1: she used those on her hand and then bought a

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Speaker 1: number of medical supply What time was that, Lisa? I

330
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Speaker 1: believe that was around to a m um and she uh,

331
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Speaker 1: you know, had been on her phone pretty often on

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Speaker 1: all night basically except for a period of time when

333
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: it was quiet, and um, yes, went into Walgreens for

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Speaker 1: you Well, you're putting it. You're certainly putting perfume on

335
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Speaker 1: the big She lived on the cell phone. She was

336
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Speaker 1: on it constantly, but then there was a period of

337
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: time between let's say, like one and three, she went

338
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Speaker 1: totally quiet, not one single phone call. There was an

339
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: odd period of time she was not on the phone,

340
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Speaker 1: and then she picked right back up again. And during

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Speaker 1: this time, I think it's when she spotted on surveillance

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Speaker 1: video at the pharmacy buying bandages. So that was around

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Speaker 1: one o'clock. You're saying, um, right right in there, between

344
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Speaker 1: one and two. Okay, So you know what was interesting

345
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: Alan about when she went to the pharmacy to get bandages.

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Speaker 1: What the pharmacy employee said, did you see that? I

347
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: saw that. I saw the surveillance video that said she

348
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Speaker 1: was sure she was obviously bleeding and had a bandage

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Speaker 1: on her hand. Okay, there's a little bit more to it,

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Speaker 1: he said. The employees said it was openly bleeding, And

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Speaker 1: what I mean by that is it had just happened

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Speaker 1: unless she reinjured it and it started bleeding again. Lisa.

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Speaker 1: What did she say at the pharmacy as to what

354
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Speaker 1: happened to her hand? No, I don't remember exactly to

355
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: tell you the truth. Um if she gave any kind

356
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 1: of an explanation for her or not the hand. Um.

357
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Speaker 1: She told her her off on and off boyfriend Perry,

358
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Speaker 1: that she cut it in her house chasing her kitten.

359
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: She told her Aunt Grace she cut it. Um she

360
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Speaker 1: burned it making macaroni and cheese. There are just a

361
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Speaker 1: number of different stories about the cut on her hand.

362
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Speaker 1: And um, okay, hold on, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa? What

363
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: happened to falling on the beer bottle? That was one

364
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: of the stories too. There's several different accounts for how

365
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Speaker 1: the cut occurs. Alan are you hearing this? Mr? Innocent

366
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Speaker 1: until proven guilty? Well, at least O. J. Simpson stuck

367
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Speaker 1: to the story about how he cut his hand. At

368
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Speaker 1: least we have that but with that similarity. But you

369
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: think they're broken glass in the middle of consumption of alcohol,

370
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Speaker 1: right right? Exactly? What? So? He? I guess I do

371
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: have to give that decemps. And he did stick with

372
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Speaker 1: his story. Nora Jackson has multiple stories. Now. That is

373
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Speaker 1: when I got concerned about Nora Jackson. First of all,

374
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Speaker 1: knowing about that hinky lock and how to get in.

375
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: That's why I was asking you about the glass. Was

376
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: it on the kitchen floor or the garage floor? That

377
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: would tell me which way the intruder from which angle

378
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: they were punching the glass. Then the fact that the

379
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: waste basket was put over the mom's face. A random

380
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: killer doesn't take time to do that. They hit it

381
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: and quit it. They're gone. They don't care about the

382
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: victim looking at them. No sexist, sex attack, nothing stolen.

383
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: And now this cut on her hand. This is not

384
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: typically if you look at statistics a female crime, this

385
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: is statistically not committed by a woman. Also, matricide or

386
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: killing your mother less than one percent of all homicides,

387
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: less than one percent is the murder of your own mother.

388
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: So trying to pen this on Nora Jackson is statistically improbable.

389
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: But then enter the various stories she gives. I mean

390
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: to me, it was unlikely that you happened to fall

391
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: on a broken beer bottle number one, But number two,

392
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: I mean to me, you'd hit your knees first. Just

393
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: to me, that's an unlikely scenario. But I I could

394
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: go with it, but changing the story, that is a problem.

395
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: I want to go through her changing stories again. Who

396
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 1: did she tell what Lisa? She told Perry her Um,

397
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: as I said, her on and off again boyfriend. She

398
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: was chasing her kitty. She she picked up a little

399
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: kitten that day from a neighbor who was giving them away,

400
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: and Um cut it on the glass in the kitchen floor.

401
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: And then she told her aunt Grace that she burned

402
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: it making macaroni and cheese. And then of course the

403
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 1: police officers, she told you know that there was broken

404
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,959
Speaker 1: glass at the Italian festival and as she fell and

405
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 1: cut it on that. I used to go through this

406
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: with defense attorneys in court all the time. The fact

407
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: that they would argue, well, your witnesses, your witnesses change

408
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: their story, and I would argue back, no, Alan, they

409
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: haven't changed their story. They have embellished their story. They've

410
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: added to this story because they're finally being asked the

411
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: right questions. They will never ask these questions before. There's

412
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: a big difference, Alan, in changing your story and adding

413
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: to your story. Once you start changing your story, you're

414
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: in hot water. But did she only tell one story

415
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: to police, to the police. Yes, yes, I believe to

416
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: the police it was so and that's what's relevant. What

417
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: do you mean that's what's relevant? I mean well, I

418
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: mean she to investigators, she did not tell multiple stories.

419
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: And this boyfriend, I mean, are there reasons we wouldn't

420
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: trust necessarily his memory? Well, I don't know. He was

421
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: partying too, but um, I couldn't. I don't know about

422
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: his memory. Okay, the wait a minute, you're saying because um,

423
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: he had been drinking that night, he didn't remember what

424
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: she said about the wound to her hand. Well, are

425
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: you trying to suggest he did it? He had been

426
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: using drugs, right, He had been using drugs right, Yes

427
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: he did. Um, he was using ecstasy that night. There

428
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: you go. Okay, So who did she tell about the kitten?

429
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: Who is that? Okay, that's um, that's tell His name

430
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: is Perry and he was on again, off again boyfriend. Andrew. Um,

431
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: the individual we were talking about earlier. Uh, he um

432
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: was also someone he was a friend, but at times

433
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: like they had more of a relationship than a friendship.

434
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: As he described, I've got three stories so far. What

435
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: Lisa he described on the witness stand. Uh, friends with

436
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: benefits with how he described his relationship to Nora Andrew Hamrick.

437
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: During her police investigate interrogation, Nora Jackson says she was

438
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: out at the Italian Festival that night. She went to

439
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: two parties after that at friends homes. At six a m.

440
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: She tells police she went to a gas station to

441
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: buy cigarettes, then went to another friends home at three

442
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: thirty a m. There's a big gap right there. Coincidentally,

443
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: at the time her mother is murdered. A m. She's

444
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: buying cigarettes. Three thirty a m. She's at a friend's house.

445
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: That's a two and a half hour, two hour and

446
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: forty five minute gap. Then at four twenty a m.

447
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: She buys gas and heads home. Cops point out no

448
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: activity on her cell phone between one and three a m.

449
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: She forgot to tell police. She went to a Walgreens

450
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: at four a m. The surveillance video shows she asked

451
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: a cashier for a paper towel, not just to buy

452
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: band aids. She has to get a paper towel to

453
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: stop the bleeding from her hand. Then she buys bandages

454
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: in a bottle of hydrogen peroxide. Okay. Cops believe Jennifer

455
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: was murdered between one and four a m Several prosecution

456
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: witnesses state that Nora gave them different excuses from broken glass.

457
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: She told one person a barbed wire, another person cooking

458
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: mac and cheese, and then the other person says she

459
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: said a cat scratched her, a kitten scratched her while

460
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: she was trying to get it out of the garage.

461
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: M hmm, okay, it's starting to look bad for her.

462
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: Take a listen, judge for yourself. Here is Nora Jackson's

463
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,959
Speaker 1: nine one one call from What's Good that doesn't one

464
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: knew even avenue. What's the phone coming back? My mom?

465
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: Because my mom is breathing. She's breathing, breathings, not breathing,

466
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: not breathing. Blease them with anyone's shot like every clease,

467
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: I need a puttying. I didn't a mother burying nine

468
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: years old? Oh my god, oh my god, clean, please

469
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: help me, please in come Okay looking to me, ma'am,

470
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: I ne can't calm down. Okay, so we can help

471
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: your mother. Okay, breezy, okay, listen to me. Did you

472
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: see what happened? No, my good, fe long if someone

473
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: broken through your home, he had one still get my

474
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: kicking out of the kicking in his gloss everywhere in

475
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: your three Okay, we have help on the way. We're

476
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: going to help your mother. Only right now, man, money

477
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: canna come now, we can help her. Okay. Prosecutors say

478
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: that Nora Jackson murdered her mother to get access to money.

479
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: I'm talking about a lot of money. In fact, Nora's uncle,

480
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: Eric Sherwood, Jennifer's brother, states he heard Nora and her

481
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: mother discussing the mom's assets and life insurance policies just

482
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: one week before his sister is found stabbed dead. Alan,

483
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: you have questions, as do I about some evidence found

484
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 1: at the scene. What's your concern? Well, why didn't they

485
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: test the blonde hair found in the grasp of the mom?

486
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: Nora didn't have blonde hair? Whose hair was that? I mean?

487
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: Did they not want to know? This reminds me so

488
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: much of the O. J. Simpson crime scene and that

489
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: there should be a lot of evidence around footprints, DNA

490
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: from the perpetrator, that kind of thing. But that's completely

491
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: absent from this crime scene. Is she's so brilliant in

492
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: cleaning up and that did she stage the blonde hair

493
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: in her mother's grasp? Why didn't they test it and

494
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: find out. Lisa, what do we know about that? I

495
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: don't know why they didn't test it, and that's just

496
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 1: been a nagging question. Um. The judge said, he offered

497
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: the money to actually have that test performed to the

498
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: defense team, and they chose not to test the blond hairs.

499
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: But is it their job to do that? Oh? Whoa,

500
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: you're so right about that? Hold on Alan before he

501
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 1: started crying and sobbing about a hair that wasn't tested.

502
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: I agree with the prosecution, who has to do that?

503
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 1: Quite a minute. The prosecution doesn't have to do anything.

504
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: The prosecution has to carry a burden, and they didn't

505
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: test the hair. Now, if it were me, I would

506
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: have wanted the hair tested. But let me point out

507
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: that the mom had her hair bleach blonde and the

508
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: daughter had her hair bleached blonde. I don't know if

509
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: it was blonde at the time though, but they both

510
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: had put highlights in their hair. And it's interesting to

511
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: me that neither side wanted to test the hair. Um,

512
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: So the the defense could have had it tested for free. Right,

513
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: they can ask for tests just like the state does.

514
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: The state doesn't have to do that, and if the

515
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: defense wanted it tested. They could have it detested. Have

516
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: it tested. I've got another issue. The phone calls around

517
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: UM three eighteen a m. Nor Jackson starts using her

518
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: phone again. She calls a friend named Eric Whittaker, asking

519
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: him wanting to come over to his house and hang out.

520
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: This isn't three eighteen in the morning. He agreed. She

521
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: drove to his house, but when she got there, he

522
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: was just leaving by the time she got there, so

523
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: they only chatter for two or three minutes and she

524
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: left all right. Next four oh one a m. About

525
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: one hour before she calls nine one one. That's when

526
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: she goes to Walgreen. But there's another phone call, isn't

527
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: there a phone call to a friend Around twelve fifty nine,

528
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: that's one am in the morning, a friend of Nora's

529
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: gets a hang up from Norah's home phone where the

530
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: mother is murdered. We don't know whether it was nor

531
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: that made the call, but just ten minutes later one

532
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: oh nine, she calls from her cell phone and leaves

533
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: a voicemail, but she says she wasn't home. Is that true? Um? Uh?

534
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: The friend you know who received a phone call from

535
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: the landline just said that. Um. There's no way that

536
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: Jennifer would be calling him, and that Nora always called

537
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 1: his cell phone. But there was a phone call from

538
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: the Jackson home land line um at that time. I mean, Alan,

539
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: has my mother ever called? You know? She's never done that? Okay,

540
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,720
Speaker 1: So don't you think it would be a little odd

541
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 1: for Nora to now argue it was her mother callowing

542
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: calling her friends at one o'clock in the morning. It

543
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: had to be here. He's at home at the time

544
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: of the murder. Alt If I'm looking for my daughter

545
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: at one o'clock in the morning, I might call one

546
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: of her friends. I probably have done that before, so

547
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 1: that's not unusual. But but the fact that she called

548
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: would never called before. Ever, she had not even called

549
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: Nora looking for Nora, according to the phone call the

550
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: phone records. Don't you think if she was looking for

551
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: Nora should call Nora first, of a friend she doesn't

552
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: even know. I'll give you that, But I think it's

553
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: more unusual, believe it or not, that there's no DNA

554
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: evidence linking this Nora to the crimes. Would there be?

555
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: There was no sex attack, blood dripping blood, Where are

556
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: her bloody clothes? You can't stab somebody fifty times and

557
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: not get blood on you. Let's talk about clothes, because

558
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 1: Nora changed her clothes. Mm hmmm. She began wearing immediately,

559
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: including at the funeral, long sleeves and with then hold

560
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 1: the sleeves over her hands with her fingers up under

561
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 1: the sleeves. I'm glad you brought that up, Alan, thank

562
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: you so the clothes. She did change her clothes that evening.

563
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: But you're right. The defense points out the lack of

564
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: forensic evidence that an evidence that points away from Nora.

565
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 1: Beside the cut on her hand, no bruises or any

566
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: other injuries. Even her manicured nails were not chipped. Norah's

567
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: blood was not found at the scene, and the mother

568
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: had blonde hair in her hand. Now, preliminary tests excluded

569
00:39:54,719 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: Nora as the source of those hairs, but it no

570
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: one tested it any further. There was no d NA

571
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: known from anyone on the victim's pillow or the blood

572
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 1: soaked bedsheet. So you're right. The d n A does

573
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: not help the state at all. Um, Why would somebody

574
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: go out and start partying at four o'clock in the morning, Alan,

575
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to relate to that at this age.

576
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: But when I was eighteen years old, I did that.

577
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: I did that. I didn't attack anybody. I didn't. That's

578
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: just me. Hey, no place where we left off, we

579
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: were talking to thank you? Uh question regarding the money.

580
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 1: As we speak, Nora Jackson is waging a battle to

581
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: get her mother's over one million dollar estate. Just so

582
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 1: you know, Nora Jackson was convicted in her mother's murder,

583
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: but as fate would have it, the prosecution failed to

584
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: turn over a piece of evidence and the whole thing

585
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: was reversed. She was set free. She then pled guilty

586
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: under an Alfred plea, which means I don't admit and

587
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: I don't deny, but I'm pleading guilty. Her lawyers say

588
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: the reason she did that is to avoid any more

589
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:40,919
Speaker 1: jail time. Nora Jackson is walking free today. The death

590
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: of her father remains unsolved, his murder, and she is

591
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: mounting a battle for her mother's estate. Lisa, is that true?

592
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 1: That is true? But I believe they have reached a private,

593
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: confidential agreement on the on the money. Um, what do

594
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: you you what? What's the amount of the estate. It

595
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: was um a million and a half and um the

596
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: siblings Jennifer's two sisters and brother would have received that

597
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 1: money and had received it, but they did reach an

598
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 1: agreement with Nora. There was some sort of a settlement

599
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: that was confidential there. So that's so because of their conviction,

600
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: Jennifer's siblings got the money and then they had to

601
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: wait a settlement to give a portion of it. Genera,

602
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: is that what you believe happened. They didn't have to

603
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: they they could have had a civil trial, and um

604
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: they had. They had filed the paperwork for that because

605
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: you have to do that within one year of the murder,

606
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: and but instead of proceeding with that civil trial, they

607
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: chose to reach an agreement with Nora. Thank you for

608
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: being with us, Lisa Hickman, author of Stranger to the

609
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: Truth on Amazon dot com. You can also go to

610
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: Stranger to the Truth dot com. It has its own website.

611
00:43:05,440 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Climb Stories. Goodbye friend, m sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss sassasssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss s