WEBVTT - Toxic Positivity 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.360 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:17.799 Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:21.360 am your host Jen Kirkman. Today we were talking about 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:26.000 toxic positivity. Now you might be thinking, I love to 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:29.680 think positively. It's really helped me and I do a 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.280 vision board and I like to have hope. And we're 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:37.000 not saying don't do that. We're talking about toxic positivity. 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:39.400 So my guest today is the author of the book 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.879 Toxic Positivity, Keeping it Real in a world obsessed with 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:48.440 positive thinking, Whitney Goodman. As it says on her website, 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.560 every day we're bombarded with pressure to be positive from 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.840 good vibes. Only in life is good memes to endless 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.760 advice to look on the right side. We're constantly told 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:04.160 that the key to happiness is silencing negativity wherever it 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:07.319 crops up in ourselves and in others. Even when faced 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:11.319 with illness, laws, breakups, and other challenges, there's little space 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:15.000 for talking about our real feelings and processing them so 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.959 that we can feel better and move forward. But if 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.319 all of this positivity is the answer, why are so 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.399 many of us anxious, depressed, and burned out? That is 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:29.080 why she's a guest today on Anxiety Bites, because once again, 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:35.920 there is thinking positive and then there's subjecting yourself to 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:40.319 toxic positivity, where you feel an internalized pressure, whether it 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:42.760 comes from people in your life or just subtle messages 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.880 you get from culture, even Instagram accounts you might scroll, 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.640 or even just comparing your insides with other people's outsides, 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.400 and you think, I just have to think positive, and 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:55.640 you know this is all within my control. I can 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.080 manifest this. All of that kind of pressure. It's like 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:01.320 swallowing a poison pill on the inside, and it will 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:05.800 eventually make you anxious, depressed, and burned out. So there's 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:09.960 a way to look at your life where you make plans, 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.120 you hope for the best, and you prepare for the 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.600 fact that it may not work out the way you 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.040 wanted to. And that doesn't mean you did something wrong 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.120 or you've accidentally attracted negativity. It just means you're a 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:28.120 human living life in a world that's very random, and 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:31.080 we can only control things so much. I know that 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.440 the number one thing anxious people want is control. And again, 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.480 we do have a lot of control, mostly over the 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.440 fact that we can control how we react to the 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.320 fact that we don't have a lot of control, and 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.120 so we can take a more flow with it kind 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:50.119 of vibe um or we can take a kind of 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:56.080 let's deny everything terrible vibe, keep it positive. I know 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.040 I don't have control over the world, but let me 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.399 just put up my landers. And again, you may want 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.600 to rethink that. So if you're one of those people, 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.720 maybe check this episode out. If you're someone that is 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.840 thinking I knew it, I knew it, I knew this 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.080 friend that never really listens to what I'm saying and 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:16.680 just tells me everything happens for a reason, or I 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:18.440 knew it, I knew something was weird about that. I 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.360 feel so gross every time I get advice like that. 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:23.120 It just doesn't feel right. I feel like I'm not 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:25.800 being heard. Then this is the episode for you, because 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:31.120 it is backed by science and psychology that really doesn't 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.639 help us. So instead of hearing me go on and on, 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.400 we'll get right to my interview with Whitney Goodman. So 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.480 obviously Whitney Goodman is the author of that book we 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.800 just talked about. You can go to her website called 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.720 sit with wit dot com and I will link to 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.640 it in the show notes Whitney is a therapist, author, 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.240 and mother who is transforming the way we speak about 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.640 mental health and she believes that when we understand how 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.760 to make how to a make how to our emotions 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.440 work for us, anything is possible. She also has a 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:11.840 great Instagram account that we also talk about on the show. Um, 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.080 you know, there's a lot of Instagram therapists out there, 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:19.599 but I really enjoy Whitney's account because she again kind 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.599 of takes apart the tropes and the memes that, you know, 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:25.760 say we can manifest things and that's what we should 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.880 be doing. And so her instagram is at sit with 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:35.039 W W, H, I, T and M. One of my 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.320 favorite quotes that she says is life isn't meant to 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:42.840 be one endless self improvement project. You don't have to 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.080 pursue health and self improvement seven. You're allowed to watch 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.240 movies and TV with no educational component. You're allowed to 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:51.920 do nothing. You're allowed to sleep, You're allowed to eat 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.320 food just because it tastes good. You're allowed to read 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.200 something fun, you're allowed to move your body for enjoyment, 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:00.839 and you're even allowed to scroll on social media. So 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:03.560 check out her instagram page if you want to learn 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.400 more about not getting stuck in the self improvement spiral. 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:14.159 Of course, to all that after you listen to this episode, 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.440 what would be a toxically positive way for us to 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:21.880 start this episode? What would you have put you on 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.440 the spot? What would I say to you if I 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:29.360 were going to be uh full of toxic positivity? Oh gosh, 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:33.560 maybe something like you're here today because everything happens for 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:39.560 a reason. You know, everything that led up to this 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.600 moment is is why we're here together, and you are 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:44.800 here for a reason. That reason is is that you 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.359 said yes to my request to be on the show. 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:52.159 That is true. So yeah, your book and I'm holding 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.719 it up even though this is an audio podcast toxic positivity, 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.680 keeping it real in a world obsessed with being happy. 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:02.800 By you, Whitney Goodman, I wanted to start right out. Um. 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.880 You say in the book that the reason people are 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.240 so attracted to positive thinking, which I know is different 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:13.040 than toxic positivity, is that it gives us the illusion 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:17.159 of hope and control. And you know that's all that 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:21.320 anxious people want really is a sense of control. And 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:25.960 so take us through what is toxic positivity as opposed 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:28.800 to having a positive thought, like you know what, I 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.320 feel good this morning today is gonna be great. I 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.279 assume what I just said as a positive thought, that's 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:40.120 not toxic. Absolutely. So toxic positivity really hinges on the timing, 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:43.880 the audience, and the topic that's being discussed. So something 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.080 could be quite positive in one situation and and kind 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:51.760 of go into toxic territory in another. And what toxic 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:57.080 positivity is is really this like overarching pressure, this demand 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.440 to be happy, positive seeking that out all the time, 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.240 no matter what the circumstances. And I find that it 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:09.240 becomes toxic in these moments where people are really struggling 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.840 and having a hard time and someone is using positivity 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.840 as a way to help them cope with that. Right, 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.000 And and a lot of times it's imposed on us, 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:22.080 you're saying to by someone who's giving us advice. A 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:26.360 lot of times possible, for sure, I think it's imposed 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.480 on us from other people. We impose it on ourselves. 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:32.440 And it's also just like this cultural force, especially in 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.520 the United States, that we experience, you know, the right 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.560 to the pursuit of happiness and all of that. Yes, 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.600 so you're staying um in your book that positivity gives 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:46.119 us the illusion of hope and control. And I found 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.240 the word hope really interesting. I get that it gives 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.080 us a sense of control or the illusion of control, 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.880 which is again, as an anxious person, I was in 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.320 search of that my whole life, and honest to God, 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:00.520 for me, things didn't get better until I accepted I 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.280 don't have control, and I kind of found the almost 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:11.080 relaxation and that. But hope, now, am I am? I am? 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.880 I not understanding what you mean by hope because is 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.240 hope and illusion or you know, is what's wrong with hope? 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:20.480 And I know you're not saying anything's wrong with it, 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.280 but I'm being the Devil's ad becase. Yeah, no, I 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:27.840 hear you. I think that there's nothing wrong with hope. 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:32.400 It's when we're telling people that that's the only feeling, 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.520 that's the only thing they can think about, is that 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:37.240 they need to have hope. They need to have a 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.640 positive outlook, especially when things are just kind of shitty, 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.080 you know, like if somebody has just passed away. You know, 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.040 I've heard people you know, lost a child something like that, 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.640 and you're saying, like, well, you just have to hope 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.560 that it's going to get better. Or that something positive 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:57.360 is going to come along. And yes, hope is powerful 0:08:57.440 --> 0:08:59.680 and it's good, but I think we use that sometimes 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.760 to really pull people out of situations that they might 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.720 need to grieve or or be in for a moment. 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.680 So it sounds like, I mean, as with anything with 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.760 anxiety and mental health, we kind of have to lean 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.679 into how we're feeling instead of trying to cover it up. Now, 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:21.440 covering it up worked, awesome, Let's cover up our feelings. 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.520 Let's move on, let's have a great life. But I'm 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:28.440 assuming that when we cover things up and being overly 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:32.040 positive as a way to just kind of skirt how 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.000 we're feeling how someone else is feeling, it will come 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:36.920 back to bite us in the ass, right, like what 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:42.280 actually happens in our psyche, in our body, in our 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:45.120 nervous system. You know. Let's say let's give the example 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.400 of what you you know, you're talking the book about, 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.720 you know, people getting fired and it's like your fun employed, 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.560 you know, would be like a toxic positivity framing. So 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.440 let's just say someone's going through something it subjectively hard, 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.600 it's not uh, it's not an emotional experience they're having 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:04.360 where they're like afraid to be on a plane. That's 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.120 totally not crashing, but they really lost their job, they 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:11.439 are getting a divorce, they whatever. And first of all, 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.360 when other people tell you to be positive, it is 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:19.600 so dismissive. It's almost like they can't handle feelings and 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.840 so they want to be comfortable, so they're putting this 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.960 crap on you. But let's take it back to the 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:31.120 person doing it to themselves. If they have almost this 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.920 neurosis about like if I'm negative, I'll attract negative energy. 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:38.400 So I gotta stay positive about this unemployment. What will 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:44.320 eventually happen in weeks, months, years if people never uh 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:46.680 sit with how they're feeling and instead try to cover 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.560 it up with positivity. Yeah, the research is pretty clear 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.960 on this that when we suppress our emotions, we try 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.800 to stuff them down, they end up just intensifying, getting worse, 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.560 and maybe coming out in other ways. So I see 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:05.000 a lot of people who think they're really doing fine. 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.200 They're like, oh, I don't have a lot of negative feelings, 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:11.360 I'm okay. But their sleep is disrupted, um, their relationships 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:14.640 are strained, they're eating habits are kind of wonky, They're 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:20.400 maybe using substances excessively doing a lot of these behaviors 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.320 that relate to near our sides, Like you're trying to 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.600 suppress or control something that might be bothering you. And 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.160 the longer we do that, the more likely that you're 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:34.800 going to see things like anxiety, depression, um, those types 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:39.280 of symptoms kind of show up. So by trying to 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:43.360 push something away, you're effectively sort of ensuring that it's 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.000 going to come out, and then it's going to come 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:51.000 out works than it was, probably right, and so when 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.600 it comes out worse later, it's not even like the 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.880 feeling you have later isn't even associated probably with the 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:01.000 original thing. So now you've got two problems, is right? Yeah, 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.240 And I think that's why when people come to therapy 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:05.920 a lot of the times they present a problem that 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.440 isn't really the problem, and so you're working with a 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.760 therapist and saying like, Okay, how can we connect this 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.600 back to maybe this original thing that you're not seeing 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:20.199 how it's tied together. Sometimes we're just talking about symptoms. 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:25.320 It seems like something like toxic positivity really can throw 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.880 a wrench in anyone's development, like, let alone their progress, 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.319 like if they haven't even ever had a need to 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.880 go to therapy. This seems like you do enough of 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.920 this for a few years and you're really slowing down 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:41.240 like any development that you could have. Yeah, you're really 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:45.880 inhibiting your ability to learn how to solve problems, um, 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.160 to work through things, to create different types of solutions. 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.559 And that's what we see a lot with the research 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:55.240 on positive thinking is that when people say this is 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.680 all gonna work out, I don't need to worry about it, 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.199 they're not engaging in any type of iCal thinking of 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.679 like what could go wrong? What problems could I run into, 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.960 What skills do I need to have? Um that it 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.120 can leave you feeling really inapt in a lot of 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.760 situations and wondering why they didn't work out. That's really 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:19.760 interesting that people are unlearning. Well, they're not even unlearning, 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.920 they're not learning a life skill. So you could actually 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:28.320 probably reach some success, right like with positive thinking. I 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.320 don't know if it's that you actually managed you know 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.880 that a person actually managed to make it happen, or 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.680 it's just a coincidence. But let's just say someone only 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:38.640 does the positive thinking, they don't feel their feelings, they 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:42.160 don't learn to solve problems. Now, they've become the CEO 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:47.880 or the celebrity whatever. UM is this why I see 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.120 a lot of successful people who are kind of like 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.240 helpless babies, Do you know what I mean? Yeah, you 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.520 know you're making me think of I've been watching all 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.560 the shows about like that We Work Guy and Elizabeth 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.760 Holmes of Sarah Nose, and like, when you watch these shows, 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.280 you kind of see that positive attitude that borders on 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.600 delusion in some of these five powered people, right, And 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.200 so that can get you so far, but when things 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:17.360 start to fall apart around you, if you're stuck in 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:18.960 this space of like it's all going to work out, 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.560 it's meant to be, and you can't look at the 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.040 problem and say we have buyers to put out here. 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.840 That's where the anxious person who is able to call 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.480 it out and say we gotta do something about this 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:36.280 is probably going to be more successful. Yeah. I was 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.880 just thinking about UM. You know, people with like fifty 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.600 five assistants and like, you know, you read all these 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.520 I followed this account on Instagram which speaking of toxic, 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.880 but I can't get enough of it. It's it's like 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:53.400 a gossip account, and I've been reading recently about UM 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:57.240 these assistants who you know, work for celebrities, and the 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.880 things they have to do, like run to the person's 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.600 house at three am because they don't know how to 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.160 use their freezer, you know, things like like I'm not 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.640 blaming it on tongues of positivity, but I do think 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.680 there's a correlation between It takes a lot to achieve 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.080 a certain amount of like material success, and I think 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:18.960 a lot of times the roads people take, um do 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:21.280 kind of block them from learning a lot of life 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.800 skills at the very least, let's say that. And then 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.000 the anxiety of like I don't know how to use 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:30.240 my freezer. It's three am, Um, you're calling someone and 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.200 making them get out of bed to do it. Like, 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.920 I just find that like so interesting for people out 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.520 there listening who think, like, you know, this is the 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:44.280 way to get everything you want, um, And it's like maybe, 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:46.440 but maybe there's a price with that. And it sounds 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.160 like what you're saying is that you kind of don't 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:53.520 develop really yeah. Yeah, and some people just get lucky 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.520 at the end of the day, you know. And so yeah, 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.440 you talked about the notion of like that some people say, 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.480 change your thoughts to change your life. And that's very attractive, right, because, 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:05.960 as you said, it taps into our biggest fear, which 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.480 is uncertainty. So what do you tell what do you 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.480 do with that? Like, what do you do with with 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:15.480 patients who are struggling with uncertainty and they really want 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.240 something like a oh, if I just change my thoughts, 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.880 my life will change. Solution, Like, how do you wrangle 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:26.200 that under law ants? Yeah, so people are very drawn 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.400 to that, and I think we have to normalize and 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:34.640 de pathologize the human condition. I tell people really that 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.360 uncertainty is actually quite normal. I find what my clients 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.400 are talking about a lot is that like I'm the 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.640 only one that feels this way. Other people are so 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.560 sure they know what they want. And that comparison, I 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:48.640 think is what drives people into this place of like 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.960 I have to change this about myself. And of course, 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.280 as you know, as someone who talks about anxiety and 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:57.560 it's lived with it, like, there's a level of uncertainty 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:02.400 that becomes debilitating and in facitating, and that's not what 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:04.720 I think we should be normalizing. But I think there's 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:09.399 this middle road where uncertainty can actually give us a 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.200 lot of gifts of like trying to figure out what's 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:16.000 important to us, what we want, what we don't want, 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.879 and if we don't have that, we miss out on 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:25.240 so much data um and and so many life skills 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.760 that I try to teach people how we can use 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.800 uncertainty to our advantage and also normalize it, you know, 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.480 within limits. Right. So if I'm sitting here while I 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:38.520 am in a phase of uncertainty in my life, I 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.720 um live on both coasts. I don't know I'll be 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.640 able to do that next year. I write for Living 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.000 for television. But it's not like you work at a 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:49.880 bank for forty years and they give you a watch 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.400 and you retire. It's like, what show do I work 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.520 on next year? Will anyone hire me? You know? There's 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:59.560 so many factors, and I'm always in a state of uncertainty, 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:03.880 and so I have to kind of be like, Okay, well, 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:07.399 the certainty is that there is uncertainty, but I have 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:13.200 this resume, this pedigree, this whatever, and I'll figure something out. 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:16.320 But whenever I've tried to force it and be like, 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:18.439 you know what, this is how my career has to go, 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.600 I've been wrong, and like, honestly, better things have happened 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.000 than I could have imagined, and so like, if I 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.080 got everything I wanted, my life might actually be smaller 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.399 than it is today, you know. Um. And it was 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.199 because of the uncertainty, like the pandemic, the I mean, 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.560 I'm still going on, but like the first six months 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:39.080 of lockdown and no vaccine, and I was sitting at 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:43.320 home working, but I was thinking, I, I don't know what. 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:45.480 I've had enough time to sit home and think what 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:47.840 do I want in the next phase of my life, 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.320 you know. And that's where I came up with the 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.080 idea for this podcast. I probably wouldn't have thought to 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:57.800 do that if I didn't massive six months of complete 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.040 uncertainty about you know, the world, not just me, but 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:06.000 you know the world. And it's not an attractive thing 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.560 to offer someone, right if I were to mentor someone 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:10.720 and say, well, it all came together for me during 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.080 a global pandemic and nobody Nobody's like, oh cool, let 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.200 me um, you know, hope that that happens. And so 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.200 is there a way to make it attractive to people 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.520 to like calm down with the needing to figure it out? 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.480 Like how can we not just normalize it but make 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.919 it seem like, hey, it's kind of cool to be 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.200 into not knowing. I mean, I think you kind of 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.399 just did that. And I want to point out for 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.760 anyone listening, like what you just did, because I think 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:40.800 it was the opposite of toxic positivity and like so 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.520 well aligned of like saying, my career is really uncertain, 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.359 my life has been really uncertain. This is what's like 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.040 hard about it and validating that and then saying and 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:52.840 I know I have my resume to fall back on. 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:54.639 I know I have this pedigree, I know I have 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.879 this thing, and I have created something in moments of 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.600 uncertainty in the past that has worked out even better 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.000 for me. And I think the way you just talked 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:10.240 about how both can exist is actually really like liberating 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.479 to me at least, Like that's where I feel freedom 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.160 is like, Okay, can invalidate what's hard and what's going 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:18.920 on now and also believe in the potential that things 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:26.120 could get better and even be great. We'll be right back. 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:33.879 In your book, you talk about the law of attraction 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:38.240 and and you ask like, can you really manifest anything? Um, 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:41.280 And you talk about what the law of attraction promises, 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:45.240 which is that if you feel negative emotions, you attract negativity. 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.439 If you cultivate positive emotions, things are drawn to you. 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.080 And you say, is we just kind of discussed not 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:55.879 everything that comes your ways because you attracted it, And 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:58.520 you say, you know, the world can be cruel and random, 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:00.840 and and I'm assuming on the upside the world can 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:05.800 be awesome in random. But you know, it's like I'm 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.040 joking a little bit, but like you are going up 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:12.800 against like a huge societal thing that has been kind 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.320 of I'm not gonna say shoved down our throats, but 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:19.200 I will say ever present, ever since really Oprah started 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:26.040 validating speaking of validating this thing. And maybe Oprah understands 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:27.760 what she's saying, but when you kind of put it 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:32.360 out there and in the hands of inexperienced people, I 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.080 think she set off this like shock wave of people 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.040 thinking they could manifest things and then if they don't, 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:40.480 right then here comes to shame sparrows. So take us 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.840 through what the problem is with law of attraction or 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:48.520 that kind of thinking. Yeah, with any of these things, 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.440 law of attraction, manifestation, all this stuff that fits in 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.719 bad umbrella. I really think that when it's used in 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.200 a positive way to say, like I attracted these good 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:01.080 things to me. I put this out in the world, 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.440 so I got it back. That's a very positive thing 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.520 if you're using it in that regard. The problem comes 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:10.080 up when the world is cruel and random, and I 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:14.080 see so many people who have gone through the unthinkable 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.840 in life who then kind of come to this conclusion 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:23.640 through that rhetoric of like, I attracted this illness, this trauma, 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.680 this abuse to me because of something that I did. 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:32.800 And I've gotten in really spirited conversations with a lot 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:35.440 of people about this that there are people who really 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:39.600 do believe that you attracted it in another life. Um, 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:42.960 then your mother thought about it while she was pregnant 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.879 with you, and that's why it came to you. And 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:51.119 I find that belief to just not really serve anyone. 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:55.359 I've seen it bring people people into a place where 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:59.680 they're constantly on edge about their thoughts, about what they're thinking, 0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:03.280 about what they're attracting to themselves, and it gets into 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:07.320 this dynamic where we're very much like blaming the victim, 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:11.359 the person that we should be supporting and helping through something. 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:14.119 We're saying like, well, you did this to yourself, and 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:16.600 you should think a little bit more positive next time, 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:20.720 or change your phones. We're inviting shame to come in 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:23.520 right where we're shaming ourselves for not having done it right. 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:28.240 And I really am so happy to always talk about 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:30.560