Speaker 1: This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I
Speaker 1: am your host Jen Kirkman. Today we were talking about
Speaker 1: toxic positivity. Now you might be thinking, I love to
Speaker 1: think positively. It's really helped me and I do a
Speaker 1: vision board and I like to have hope. And we're
Speaker 1: not saying don't do that. We're talking about toxic positivity.
Speaker 1: So my guest today is the author of the book
Speaker 1: Toxic Positivity, Keeping it Real in a world obsessed with
Speaker 1: positive thinking, Whitney Goodman. As it says on her website,
Speaker 1: every day we're bombarded with pressure to be positive from
Speaker 1: good vibes. Only in life is good memes to endless
Speaker 1: advice to look on the right side. We're constantly told
Speaker 1: that the key to happiness is silencing negativity wherever it
Speaker 1: crops up in ourselves and in others. Even when faced
Speaker 1: with illness, laws, breakups, and other challenges, there's little space
Speaker 1: for talking about our real feelings and processing them so
Speaker 1: that we can feel better and move forward. But if
Speaker 1: all of this positivity is the answer, why are so
Speaker 1: many of us anxious, depressed, and burned out? That is
Speaker 1: why she's a guest today on Anxiety Bites, because once again,
Speaker 1: there is thinking positive and then there's subjecting yourself to
Speaker 1: toxic positivity, where you feel an internalized pressure, whether it
Speaker 1: comes from people in your life or just subtle messages
Speaker 1: you get from culture, even Instagram accounts you might scroll,
Speaker 1: or even just comparing your insides with other people's outsides,
Speaker 1: and you think, I just have to think positive, and
Speaker 1: you know this is all within my control. I can
Speaker 1: manifest this. All of that kind of pressure. It's like
Speaker 1: swallowing a poison pill on the inside, and it will
Speaker 1: eventually make you anxious, depressed, and burned out. So there's
Speaker 1: a way to look at your life where you make plans,
Speaker 1: you hope for the best, and you prepare for the
Speaker 1: fact that it may not work out the way you
Speaker 1: wanted to. And that doesn't mean you did something wrong
Speaker 1: or you've accidentally attracted negativity. It just means you're a
Speaker 1: human living life in a world that's very random, and
Speaker 1: we can only control things so much. I know that
Speaker 1: the number one thing anxious people want is control. And again,
Speaker 1: we do have a lot of control, mostly over the
Speaker 1: fact that we can control how we react to the
Speaker 1: fact that we don't have a lot of control, and
Speaker 1: so we can take a more flow with it kind
Speaker 1: of vibe um or we can take a kind of
Speaker 1: let's deny everything terrible vibe, keep it positive. I know
Speaker 1: I don't have control over the world, but let me
Speaker 1: just put up my landers. And again, you may want
Speaker 1: to rethink that. So if you're one of those people,
Speaker 1: maybe check this episode out. If you're someone that is
Speaker 1: thinking I knew it, I knew it, I knew this
Speaker 1: friend that never really listens to what I'm saying and
Speaker 1: just tells me everything happens for a reason, or I
Speaker 1: knew it, I knew something was weird about that. I
Speaker 1: feel so gross every time I get advice like that.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't feel right. I feel like I'm not
Speaker 1: being heard. Then this is the episode for you, because
Speaker 1: it is backed by science and psychology that really doesn't
Speaker 1: help us. So instead of hearing me go on and on,
Speaker 1: we'll get right to my interview with Whitney Goodman. So
Speaker 1: obviously Whitney Goodman is the author of that book we
Speaker 1: just talked about. You can go to her website called
Speaker 1: sit with wit dot com and I will link to
Speaker 1: it in the show notes Whitney is a therapist, author,
Speaker 1: and mother who is transforming the way we speak about
Speaker 1: mental health and she believes that when we understand how
Speaker 1: to make how to a make how to our emotions
Speaker 1: work for us, anything is possible. She also has a
Speaker 1: great Instagram account that we also talk about on the show. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of Instagram therapists out there,
Speaker 1: but I really enjoy Whitney's account because she again kind
Speaker 1: of takes apart the tropes and the memes that, you know,
Speaker 1: say we can manifest things and that's what we should
Speaker 1: be doing. And so her instagram is at sit with
Speaker 1: W W, H, I, T and M. One of my
Speaker 1: favorite quotes that she says is life isn't meant to
Speaker 1: be one endless self improvement project. You don't have to
Speaker 1: pursue health and self improvement seven. You're allowed to watch
Speaker 1: movies and TV with no educational component. You're allowed to
Speaker 1: do nothing. You're allowed to sleep, You're allowed to eat
Speaker 1: food just because it tastes good. You're allowed to read
Speaker 1: something fun, you're allowed to move your body for enjoyment,
Speaker 1: and you're even allowed to scroll on social media. So
Speaker 1: check out her instagram page if you want to learn
Speaker 1: more about not getting stuck in the self improvement spiral.
Speaker 1: Of course, to all that after you listen to this episode,
Speaker 1: what would be a toxically positive way for us to
Speaker 1: start this episode? What would you have put you on
Speaker 1: the spot? What would I say to you if I
Speaker 1: were going to be uh full of toxic positivity? Oh gosh,
Speaker 1: maybe something like you're here today because everything happens for
Speaker 1: a reason. You know, everything that led up to this
Speaker 1: moment is is why we're here together, and you are
Speaker 1: here for a reason. That reason is is that you
Speaker 1: said yes to my request to be on the show.
Speaker 1: That is true. So yeah, your book and I'm holding
Speaker 1: it up even though this is an audio podcast toxic positivity,
Speaker 1: keeping it real in a world obsessed with being happy.
Speaker 1: By you, Whitney Goodman, I wanted to start right out. Um.
Speaker 1: You say in the book that the reason people are
Speaker 1: so attracted to positive thinking, which I know is different
Speaker 1: than toxic positivity, is that it gives us the illusion
Speaker 1: of hope and control. And you know that's all that
Speaker 1: anxious people want really is a sense of control. And
Speaker 1: so take us through what is toxic positivity as opposed
Speaker 1: to having a positive thought, like you know what, I
Speaker 1: feel good this morning today is gonna be great. I
Speaker 1: assume what I just said as a positive thought, that's
Speaker 1: not toxic. Absolutely. So toxic positivity really hinges on the timing,
Speaker 1: the audience, and the topic that's being discussed. So something
Speaker 1: could be quite positive in one situation and and kind
Speaker 1: of go into toxic territory in another. And what toxic
Speaker 1: positivity is is really this like overarching pressure, this demand
Speaker 1: to be happy, positive seeking that out all the time,
Speaker 1: no matter what the circumstances. And I find that it
Speaker 1: becomes toxic in these moments where people are really struggling
Speaker 1: and having a hard time and someone is using positivity
Speaker 1: as a way to help them cope with that. Right,
Speaker 1: And and a lot of times it's imposed on us,
Speaker 1: you're saying to by someone who's giving us advice. A
Speaker 1: lot of times possible, for sure, I think it's imposed
Speaker 1: on us from other people. We impose it on ourselves.
Speaker 1: And it's also just like this cultural force, especially in
Speaker 1: the United States, that we experience, you know, the right
Speaker 1: to the pursuit of happiness and all of that. Yes,
Speaker 1: so you're staying um in your book that positivity gives
Speaker 1: us the illusion of hope and control. And I found
Speaker 1: the word hope really interesting. I get that it gives
Speaker 1: us a sense of control or the illusion of control,
Speaker 1: which is again, as an anxious person, I was in
Speaker 1: search of that my whole life, and honest to God,
Speaker 1: for me, things didn't get better until I accepted I
Speaker 1: don't have control, and I kind of found the almost
Speaker 1: relaxation and that. But hope, now, am I am? I am?
Speaker 1: I not understanding what you mean by hope because is
Speaker 1: hope and illusion or you know, is what's wrong with hope?
Speaker 1: And I know you're not saying anything's wrong with it,
Speaker 1: but I'm being the Devil's ad becase. Yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: hear you. I think that there's nothing wrong with hope.
Speaker 1: It's when we're telling people that that's the only feeling,
Speaker 1: that's the only thing they can think about, is that
Speaker 1: they need to have hope. They need to have a
Speaker 1: positive outlook, especially when things are just kind of shitty,
Speaker 1: you know, like if somebody has just passed away. You know,
Speaker 1: I've heard people you know, lost a child something like that,
Speaker 1: and you're saying, like, well, you just have to hope
Speaker 1: that it's going to get better. Or that something positive
Speaker 1: is going to come along. And yes, hope is powerful
Speaker 1: and it's good, but I think we use that sometimes
Speaker 1: to really pull people out of situations that they might
Speaker 1: need to grieve or or be in for a moment.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like, I mean, as with anything with
Speaker 1: anxiety and mental health, we kind of have to lean
Speaker 1: into how we're feeling instead of trying to cover it up. Now,
Speaker 1: covering it up worked, awesome, Let's cover up our feelings.
Speaker 1: Let's move on, let's have a great life. But I'm
Speaker 1: assuming that when we cover things up and being overly
Speaker 1: positive as a way to just kind of skirt how
Speaker 1: we're feeling how someone else is feeling, it will come
Speaker 1: back to bite us in the ass, right, like what
Speaker 1: actually happens in our psyche, in our body, in our
Speaker 1: nervous system. You know. Let's say let's give the example
Speaker 1: of what you you know, you're talking the book about,
Speaker 1: you know, people getting fired and it's like your fun employed,
Speaker 1: you know, would be like a toxic positivity framing. So
Speaker 1: let's just say someone's going through something it subjectively hard,
Speaker 1: it's not uh, it's not an emotional experience they're having
Speaker 1: where they're like afraid to be on a plane. That's
Speaker 1: totally not crashing, but they really lost their job, they
Speaker 1: are getting a divorce, they whatever. And first of all,
Speaker 1: when other people tell you to be positive, it is
Speaker 1: so dismissive. It's almost like they can't handle feelings and
Speaker 1: so they want to be comfortable, so they're putting this
Speaker 1: crap on you. But let's take it back to the
Speaker 1: person doing it to themselves. If they have almost this
Speaker 1: neurosis about like if I'm negative, I'll attract negative energy.
Speaker 1: So I gotta stay positive about this unemployment. What will
Speaker 1: eventually happen in weeks, months, years if people never uh
Speaker 1: sit with how they're feeling and instead try to cover
Speaker 1: it up with positivity. Yeah, the research is pretty clear
Speaker 1: on this that when we suppress our emotions, we try
Speaker 1: to stuff them down, they end up just intensifying, getting worse,
Speaker 1: and maybe coming out in other ways. So I see
Speaker 1: a lot of people who think they're really doing fine.
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, I don't have a lot of negative feelings,
Speaker 1: I'm okay. But their sleep is disrupted, um, their relationships
Speaker 1: are strained, they're eating habits are kind of wonky, They're
Speaker 1: maybe using substances excessively doing a lot of these behaviors
Speaker 1: that relate to near our sides, Like you're trying to
Speaker 1: suppress or control something that might be bothering you. And
Speaker 1: the longer we do that, the more likely that you're
Speaker 1: going to see things like anxiety, depression, um, those types
Speaker 1: of symptoms kind of show up. So by trying to
Speaker 1: push something away, you're effectively sort of ensuring that it's
Speaker 1: going to come out, and then it's going to come
Speaker 1: out works than it was, probably right, and so when
Speaker 1: it comes out worse later, it's not even like the
Speaker 1: feeling you have later isn't even associated probably with the
Speaker 1: original thing. So now you've got two problems, is right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that's why when people come to therapy
Speaker 1: a lot of the times they present a problem that
Speaker 1: isn't really the problem, and so you're working with a
Speaker 1: therapist and saying like, Okay, how can we connect this
Speaker 1: back to maybe this original thing that you're not seeing
Speaker 1: how it's tied together. Sometimes we're just talking about symptoms.
Speaker 1: It seems like something like toxic positivity really can throw
Speaker 1: a wrench in anyone's development, like, let alone their progress,
Speaker 1: like if they haven't even ever had a need to
Speaker 1: go to therapy. This seems like you do enough of
Speaker 1: this for a few years and you're really slowing down
Speaker 1: like any development that you could have. Yeah, you're really
Speaker 1: inhibiting your ability to learn how to solve problems, um,
Speaker 1: to work through things, to create different types of solutions.
Speaker 1: And that's what we see a lot with the research
Speaker 1: on positive thinking is that when people say this is
Speaker 1: all gonna work out, I don't need to worry about it,
Speaker 1: they're not engaging in any type of iCal thinking of
Speaker 1: like what could go wrong? What problems could I run into,
Speaker 1: What skills do I need to have? Um that it
Speaker 1: can leave you feeling really inapt in a lot of
Speaker 1: situations and wondering why they didn't work out. That's really
Speaker 1: interesting that people are unlearning. Well, they're not even unlearning,
Speaker 1: they're not learning a life skill. So you could actually
Speaker 1: probably reach some success, right like with positive thinking. I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's that you actually managed you know
Speaker 1: that a person actually managed to make it happen, or
Speaker 1: it's just a coincidence. But let's just say someone only
Speaker 1: does the positive thinking, they don't feel their feelings, they
Speaker 1: don't learn to solve problems. Now, they've become the CEO
Speaker 1: or the celebrity whatever. UM is this why I see
Speaker 1: a lot of successful people who are kind of like
Speaker 1: helpless babies, Do you know what I mean? Yeah, you
Speaker 1: know you're making me think of I've been watching all
Speaker 1: the shows about like that We Work Guy and Elizabeth
Speaker 1: Holmes of Sarah Nose, and like, when you watch these shows,
Speaker 1: you kind of see that positive attitude that borders on
Speaker 1: delusion in some of these five powered people, right, And
Speaker 1: so that can get you so far, but when things
Speaker 1: start to fall apart around you, if you're stuck in
Speaker 1: this space of like it's all going to work out,
Speaker 1: it's meant to be, and you can't look at the
Speaker 1: problem and say we have buyers to put out here.
Speaker 1: That's where the anxious person who is able to call
Speaker 1: it out and say we gotta do something about this
Speaker 1: is probably going to be more successful. Yeah. I was
Speaker 1: just thinking about UM. You know, people with like fifty
Speaker 1: five assistants and like, you know, you read all these
Speaker 1: I followed this account on Instagram which speaking of toxic,
Speaker 1: but I can't get enough of it. It's it's like
Speaker 1: a gossip account, and I've been reading recently about UM
Speaker 1: these assistants who you know, work for celebrities, and the
Speaker 1: things they have to do, like run to the person's
Speaker 1: house at three am because they don't know how to
Speaker 1: use their freezer, you know, things like like I'm not
Speaker 1: blaming it on tongues of positivity, but I do think
Speaker 1: there's a correlation between It takes a lot to achieve
Speaker 1: a certain amount of like material success, and I think
Speaker 1: a lot of times the roads people take, um do
Speaker 1: kind of block them from learning a lot of life
Speaker 1: skills at the very least, let's say that. And then
Speaker 1: the anxiety of like I don't know how to use
Speaker 1: my freezer. It's three am, Um, you're calling someone and
Speaker 1: making them get out of bed to do it. Like,
Speaker 1: I just find that like so interesting for people out
Speaker 1: there listening who think, like, you know, this is the
Speaker 1: way to get everything you want, um, And it's like maybe,
Speaker 1: but maybe there's a price with that. And it sounds
Speaker 1: like what you're saying is that you kind of don't
Speaker 1: develop really yeah. Yeah, and some people just get lucky
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you know. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: you talked about the notion of like that some people say,
Speaker 1: change your thoughts to change your life. And that's very attractive, right, because,
Speaker 1: as you said, it taps into our biggest fear, which
Speaker 1: is uncertainty. So what do you tell what do you
Speaker 1: do with that? Like, what do you do with with
Speaker 1: patients who are struggling with uncertainty and they really want
Speaker 1: something like a oh, if I just change my thoughts,
Speaker 1: my life will change. Solution, Like, how do you wrangle
Speaker 1: that under law ants? Yeah, so people are very drawn
Speaker 1: to that, and I think we have to normalize and
Speaker 1: de pathologize the human condition. I tell people really that
Speaker 1: uncertainty is actually quite normal. I find what my clients
Speaker 1: are talking about a lot is that like I'm the
Speaker 1: only one that feels this way. Other people are so
Speaker 1: sure they know what they want. And that comparison, I
Speaker 1: think is what drives people into this place of like
Speaker 1: I have to change this about myself. And of course,
Speaker 1: as you know, as someone who talks about anxiety and
Speaker 1: it's lived with it, like, there's a level of uncertainty
Speaker 1: that becomes debilitating and in facitating, and that's not what
Speaker 1: I think we should be normalizing. But I think there's
Speaker 1: this middle road where uncertainty can actually give us a
Speaker 1: lot of gifts of like trying to figure out what's
Speaker 1: important to us, what we want, what we don't want,
Speaker 1: and if we don't have that, we miss out on
Speaker 1: so much data um and and so many life skills
Speaker 1: that I try to teach people how we can use
Speaker 1: uncertainty to our advantage and also normalize it, you know,
Speaker 1: within limits. Right. So if I'm sitting here while I
Speaker 1: am in a phase of uncertainty in my life, I
Speaker 1: um live on both coasts. I don't know I'll be
Speaker 1: able to do that next year. I write for Living
Speaker 1: for television. But it's not like you work at a
Speaker 1: bank for forty years and they give you a watch
Speaker 1: and you retire. It's like, what show do I work
Speaker 1: on next year? Will anyone hire me? You know? There's
Speaker 1: so many factors, and I'm always in a state of uncertainty,
Speaker 1: and so I have to kind of be like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: the certainty is that there is uncertainty, but I have
Speaker 1: this resume, this pedigree, this whatever, and I'll figure something out.
Speaker 1: But whenever I've tried to force it and be like,
Speaker 1: you know what, this is how my career has to go,
Speaker 1: I've been wrong, and like, honestly, better things have happened
Speaker 1: than I could have imagined, and so like, if I
Speaker 1: got everything I wanted, my life might actually be smaller
Speaker 1: than it is today, you know. Um. And it was
Speaker 1: because of the uncertainty, like the pandemic, the I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm still going on, but like the first six months
Speaker 1: of lockdown and no vaccine, and I was sitting at
Speaker 1: home working, but I was thinking, I, I don't know what.
Speaker 1: I've had enough time to sit home and think what
Speaker 1: do I want in the next phase of my life,
Speaker 1: you know. And that's where I came up with the
Speaker 1: idea for this podcast. I probably wouldn't have thought to
Speaker 1: do that if I didn't massive six months of complete
Speaker 1: uncertainty about you know, the world, not just me, but
Speaker 1: you know the world. And it's not an attractive thing
Speaker 1: to offer someone, right if I were to mentor someone
Speaker 1: and say, well, it all came together for me during
Speaker 1: a global pandemic and nobody Nobody's like, oh cool, let
Speaker 1: me um, you know, hope that that happens. And so
Speaker 1: is there a way to make it attractive to people
Speaker 1: to like calm down with the needing to figure it out?
Speaker 1: Like how can we not just normalize it but make
Speaker 1: it seem like, hey, it's kind of cool to be
Speaker 1: into not knowing. I mean, I think you kind of
Speaker 1: just did that. And I want to point out for
Speaker 1: anyone listening, like what you just did, because I think
Speaker 1: it was the opposite of toxic positivity and like so
Speaker 1: well aligned of like saying, my career is really uncertain,
Speaker 1: my life has been really uncertain. This is what's like
Speaker 1: hard about it and validating that and then saying and
Speaker 1: I know I have my resume to fall back on.
Speaker 1: I know I have this pedigree, I know I have
Speaker 1: this thing, and I have created something in moments of
Speaker 1: uncertainty in the past that has worked out even better
Speaker 1: for me. And I think the way you just talked
Speaker 1: about how both can exist is actually really like liberating
Speaker 1: to me at least, Like that's where I feel freedom
Speaker 1: is like, Okay, can invalidate what's hard and what's going
Speaker 1: on now and also believe in the potential that things
Speaker 1: could get better and even be great. We'll be right back.
Speaker 1: In your book, you talk about the law of attraction
Speaker 1: and and you ask like, can you really manifest anything? Um,
Speaker 1: And you talk about what the law of attraction promises,
Speaker 1: which is that if you feel negative emotions, you attract negativity.
Speaker 1: If you cultivate positive emotions, things are drawn to you.
Speaker 1: And you say, is we just kind of discussed not
Speaker 1: everything that comes your ways because you attracted it, And
Speaker 1: you say, you know, the world can be cruel and random,
Speaker 1: and and I'm assuming on the upside the world can
Speaker 1: be awesome in random. But you know, it's like I'm
Speaker 1: joking a little bit, but like you are going up
Speaker 1: against like a huge societal thing that has been kind
Speaker 1: of I'm not gonna say shoved down our throats, but
Speaker 1: I will say ever present, ever since really Oprah started
Speaker 1: validating speaking of validating this thing. And maybe Oprah understands
Speaker 1: what she's saying, but when you kind of put it
Speaker 1: out there and in the hands of inexperienced people, I
Speaker 1: think she set off this like shock wave of people
Speaker 1: thinking they could manifest things and then if they don't,
Speaker 1: right then here comes to shame sparrows. So take us
Speaker 1: through what the problem is with law of attraction or
Speaker 1: that kind of thinking. Yeah, with any of these things,
Speaker 1: law of attraction, manifestation, all this stuff that fits in
Speaker 1: bad umbrella. I really think that when it's used in
Speaker 1: a positive way to say, like I attracted these good
Speaker 1: things to me. I put this out in the world,
Speaker 1: so I got it back. That's a very positive thing
Speaker 1: if you're using it in that regard. The problem comes
Speaker 1: up when the world is cruel and random, and I
Speaker 1: see so many people who have gone through the unthinkable
Speaker 1: in life who then kind of come to this conclusion
Speaker 1: through that rhetoric of like, I attracted this illness, this trauma,
Speaker 1: this abuse to me because of something that I did.
Speaker 1: And I've gotten in really spirited conversations with a lot
Speaker 1: of people about this that there are people who really
Speaker 1: do believe that you attracted it in another life. Um,
Speaker 1: then your mother thought about it while she was pregnant
Speaker 1: with you, and that's why it came to you. And
Speaker 1: I find that belief to just not really serve anyone.
Speaker 1: I've seen it bring people people into a place where
Speaker 1: they're constantly on edge about their thoughts, about what they're thinking,
Speaker 1: about what they're attracting to themselves, and it gets into
Speaker 1: this dynamic where we're very much like blaming the victim,
Speaker 1: the person that we should be supporting and helping through something.
Speaker 1: We're saying like, well, you did this to yourself, and
Speaker 1: you should think a little bit more positive next time,
Speaker 1: or change your phones. We're inviting shame to come in
Speaker 1: right where we're shaming ourselves for not having done it right.
Speaker 1: And I really am so happy to always talk about
Speaker 1: shame as this kind of like hidden nugget of what
Speaker 1: keeps us anxious and panicking. And it really seems like
Speaker 1: in the weirdest way, it's comfortable in a weird way
Speaker 1: for people, Like even blaming ourselves can sometimes feel comfortable
Speaker 1: because it still feels like in a negative way. If
Speaker 1: I blame myself, that's like a negative hope, like okay,
Speaker 1: well next time, I'll not do it right. Right. I
Speaker 1: think what you're alluding to is like it gives you
Speaker 1: some control. Actually, it gives you a reason. And that's
Speaker 1: what a lot of people are looking for, is like
Speaker 1: I got sick because I did this. I, you know,
Speaker 1: have panic attacks because I can't be like everybody else
Speaker 1: and everyone's better than me. And the human brain really
Speaker 1: likes certainty, likes knowing, and so we create narratives and stories,
Speaker 1: even if they're bad or they're punishing us, they still
Speaker 1: feel better than this, Like I wonder why this happened,
Speaker 1: and I don't know why it happened that feels scary
Speaker 1: to us, but we know that things are so multi factorial.
Speaker 1: And that's like the problem with a lot of the
Speaker 1: research on this stuff is that you can't look at
Speaker 1: a person who got well from cancer or something and say, oh,
Speaker 1: it was just their mindset. It's very, very difficult to
Speaker 1: just pull out that one piece and say nothing else
Speaker 1: influence that. Like the opposite of tongues of positivity is
Speaker 1: not negativity, right, Yes, you know you you have a
Speaker 1: chapter in your book about making positive affirmations work for you.
Speaker 1: You know, um, like you're not denying the power of
Speaker 1: positive language and loving yourself. And I love that you
Speaker 1: talk about the notion that everyone else says, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: you just love yourself, and how you had a therapist
Speaker 1: you would make you say that in the mirror. Yes, sorry,
Speaker 1: go ahead, Oh no, I was just wanted to hear
Speaker 1: more about that about you know, obviously, yes, we should
Speaker 1: love ourselves. So how do we, uh, if someone is
Speaker 1: attracted to something like the law of attraction, how do
Speaker 1: we allow them to do their version of positive thinking
Speaker 1: that's not destructive? And how what's the work around for
Speaker 1: something where you're screaming into the mirror. I love myself
Speaker 1: and it doesn't feel right, like that's not going to
Speaker 1: make you love yourself. I think the key piece here
Speaker 1: is that it shouldn't feel dismissive, invalidating, or untrue for you.
Speaker 1: So I was really shocked by the research on positive affirmations,
Speaker 1: just because it's something that I have always been told
Speaker 1: to use as a therapist. When I started reading the data,
Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, this really doesn't work for people
Speaker 1: with low self esteem. So it's so fascinating. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: what we find, or what they have found in the
Speaker 1: very few studies exist on this, is that people with
Speaker 1: low self esteem, when they say these things to themselves,
Speaker 1: it actually can bring up feelings of shame. Like we
Speaker 1: talked about, is like I know this isn't true. There's
Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance between like what I think is true about
Speaker 1: myself and what I'm saying to myself, and so they
Speaker 1: ultimately end up rejecting it um or almost looking for
Speaker 1: reasons to reject it, which puts you back in that
Speaker 1: negative spiral. So what I've discovered, just anecdotally through working
Speaker 1: with clients is that if you can make the affirmations
Speaker 1: more believable, more possible, and more dynamic that makes them
Speaker 1: work better. So instead of saying I love myself, you
Speaker 1: would say, I am trying to love myself. I am
Speaker 1: working on loving myself. I would like to love myself,
Speaker 1: or even breaking it down in like I show myself
Speaker 1: love by drinking water. I show myself love by going
Speaker 1: to bed at night. I'm really trying to back up
Speaker 1: these affirmations with action because the other thing I see
Speaker 1: a lot is like I told myself I love myself
Speaker 1: ten times today, but everything else I did was in
Speaker 1: direct conflict with that. You know, I negatively to myself.
Speaker 1: I didn't eat, I didn't sleep, I didn't go outside.
Speaker 1: So that's not the actions of somebody that loves themselves.
Speaker 1: And that also creates a big gap between the affirmation
Speaker 1: and what you're actually doing. Right, Like, we can't think
Speaker 1: ourselves into these actions. We must have to take them,
Speaker 1: which will build a self esteem. Right and then right
Speaker 1: and and and I love that idea. I did affirmations
Speaker 1: for anxiety and panic, and I did what I call
Speaker 1: true affirmations that they may not be positive, but you know,
Speaker 1: when you're panicking and you're telling yourself you're going to die,
Speaker 1: I would say nobody's done from a panic attack. You've
Speaker 1: been here before. Yeah, this sucks, but you'll get through it.
Speaker 1: These aren't lies, you know. That's that's perfect. It's validating
Speaker 1: and solid evidence. So you you prefer a tool that
Speaker 1: you call whoop w O O P. What is what
Speaker 1: is whoop? So? Whoop is a tool that was developed
Speaker 1: by another psychologist that wrote the book um Rethinking positive thinking,
Speaker 1: And in this tool, you're really looking at like what
Speaker 1: is your ideal wish? Um, what do you want the
Speaker 1: outcome to be? What obstacles could possibly get in your way?
Speaker 1: And this is very different from positive thinking in the
Speaker 1: sense that you're actually looking out for problems that could
Speaker 1: come up, but you're also thinking about like what's my
Speaker 1: ideal outcome? What are the possibilities? What do I want
Speaker 1: to happen? So you can have this sort of like
Speaker 1: vision board esque thing that also includes having, um, you know,
Speaker 1: a problem solving session and thinking like, wow, that might
Speaker 1: be hard for me to achieve without doing X, Y
Speaker 1: and C. I love that because you know anyone listening
Speaker 1: who might be like, God, I guess life is just
Speaker 1: cruel and random and we should just let it happen.
Speaker 1: And it's like no one is saying that it's okay
Speaker 1: to make a plan, it's okay to you know, think
Speaker 1: about what you want and all of that. It's it's
Speaker 1: like learning how to make a plan and not beating
Speaker 1: yourself up when it doesn't go quite the way you
Speaker 1: think for sure, for sure, And I think that's one
Speaker 1: of the very positive aspects of manifestation, positive thinking, all
Speaker 1: of this is that identification of this is what I want,
Speaker 1: this is what I imagine for myself, this is what
Speaker 1: I can visualize for me, but also bringing in that
Speaker 1: realistic piece of life. We may not all be able
Speaker 1: to all achieve everything we want, and that's okay. Everyone
Speaker 1: has different skill sets and abilities and really trying to
Speaker 1: lean into what that is for you. We'll continue the
Speaker 1: interview on the flip side of a quick message from
Speaker 1: our sponsors. Do you think that this positive thinking toxic
Speaker 1: positivity phenomenon is somehow tied in with like kind of
Speaker 1: the American Uh, you know, being such a privilege and
Speaker 1: wealthy country, Like we have too much choice in that
Speaker 1: sense that like we're not just in survival mode all
Speaker 1: the time, so um, we're always trying to manifest great
Speaker 1: things and uh, then we get on ourselves when when
Speaker 1: they don't come true. And I guess what I'm trying
Speaker 1: to say is like, I know a lot of mental
Speaker 1: health issues like low key depression and anxiety are from
Speaker 1: kind of a modern life where we have so many
Speaker 1: choices and we're told to choose things that make us happy,
Speaker 1: and in a weird way, it if life were simpler,
Speaker 1: we may not have all of these issues. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think you're onto something there, and I feel like it
Speaker 1: has a lot to do with, you know, the American dream,
Speaker 1: the pursuit of happiness, all these auctions. I talk about
Speaker 1: happiness scripts in the book, which is something that's like
Speaker 1: these prescribed methods of achieving happiness in our world that
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are afraid to step
Speaker 1: outside of the lines, Like maybe I don't want to
Speaker 1: get married, maybe I don't want to have kids, maybe
Speaker 1: I don't want to have this type of career, but
Speaker 1: we're told like, no, if you do this, you'll be happy.
Speaker 1: So there's a there's a certain pressure there for sure.
Speaker 1: And I know you said, you know, towards the end
Speaker 1: of your book, what about opting out of the quest
Speaker 1: for happiness, you know, looking at a value driven life,
Speaker 1: versus happiness, So what is the what is the difference?
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, if we live a value driven life
Speaker 1: and it's working out, will probably end up feeling happiness
Speaker 1: is a byproduct, right, absolutely, So the difference is that
Speaker 1: in a happiness driven life, I find that people are
Speaker 1: so focused on feeling constant happiness that they may be
Speaker 1: cut people out of their life, don't choose experiences that
Speaker 1: disrupt that, et cetera. With the value driven life, you're
Speaker 1: living in life with your values, and that means living
Speaker 1: in life is what's important to you. And when you
Speaker 1: do that, you discover that those things are probably going
Speaker 1: to bring you happiness and joy and fulfillment, but they
Speaker 1: also might be painful and difficult, and part I I
Speaker 1: compare this a lot to parenting that I know for
Speaker 1: me is a huge wake up called like, okay, it
Speaker 1: sexs me happy, but it's also really really hard. And
Speaker 1: when you're told that something is only going to make
Speaker 1: you happy, I think it can be really confusing for
Speaker 1: people when it's a mixture of emotions. Do you think
Speaker 1: that there's something to that? People? I feel that the
Speaker 1: only one and I get it. You don't know that
Speaker 1: until you find out that other people feel this way.
Speaker 1: But isn't it hard when you do find out you're
Speaker 1: not the only one? In a weird way that like
Speaker 1: it would almost be easier if you were the only one,
Speaker 1: because it would opt you out of having to do
Speaker 1: anything about it would mean like you're such a rare
Speaker 1: case that like we're still working on the solution. But
Speaker 1: once you find out everyone goes through something, it can
Speaker 1: be hard to be like, oh, well, I guess I
Speaker 1: have to get to work on changing that. You know,
Speaker 1: it can be hard. It is it is. It's so
Speaker 1: interesting in therapy that I find that people don't want
Speaker 1: to be alone, but they also want to be very unique.
Speaker 1: And so it's like, is weird like conundrum of being
Speaker 1: a human being. I don't know how you do it
Speaker 1: because I would go crazy. They get have the patients,
Speaker 1: I'd be like, you know, the person that came in
Speaker 1: before you said the same exact thing. You know what,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go get her. She's still in the waiting room.
Speaker 1: I would be fired immediately, and you know, I have
Speaker 1: my license taken away. But um, but you talk about
Speaker 1: the need to feel difficult emotions, right, and so we've
Speaker 1: talked earlier about like if you don't feel them, um,
Speaker 1: it can come up later. But then you talk about
Speaker 1: some patients of yours that you've talked to. I mean,
Speaker 1: easier said than done, right, Like, oh great, I'll skip
Speaker 1: the positive thinking and I'll get to feeling my emotions.
Speaker 1: But how do you do that? I mean one of
Speaker 1: your patients was like, I'm fine, and you could see
Speaker 1: in her face that she wasn't. And maybe she's not
Speaker 1: connecting to a feeling. So how do you um teach
Speaker 1: people too? There's a whole chapter in your book about
Speaker 1: process and emotion. The first step my thing is really
Speaker 1: just getting people in touch with their physical bodies. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people are only in their heads
Speaker 1: with their thoughts, and so trying to figure out, like
Speaker 1: what do certain emotions feel like when they manifest for
Speaker 1: me physically? How can I label them? How can I
Speaker 1: make them known to me? And once you know what
Speaker 1: you're feeling, you can give it a name. It's much
Speaker 1: easier to figure out what do I need to do
Speaker 1: about this? What do I have access to and move
Speaker 1: yourself through that feeling process. I thought this was so interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I didn't really know this. I
Speaker 1: never thought about it. But in your book, I'm going
Speaker 1: to read your own book to you, you define an
Speaker 1: emotion versus a feeling, and I honestly, I think if
Speaker 1: you had just asked me, is there a difference, I'd
Speaker 1: say no, um. And emotion is a physiological experience like
Speaker 1: rapid heartbeat or difficulty breathing, that gives you information about
Speaker 1: the world. It's a complex reaction pattern that is determined
Speaker 1: by the significance of the event. A feeling is your
Speaker 1: conscious awareness of the emotion itself. That's mind blowing. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So feelings are the things we experience in our heads
Speaker 1: more and emotions in our bodies. Yeah, feelings are more
Speaker 1: of like the conscious awareness of like giving it a label.
Speaker 1: So for you, anxiety might be like uh, sweaty poems,
Speaker 1: racing heartbeat, your stomach. As I've said, you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is anxiety. You're giving it a name, You're making
Speaker 1: it known to you as a feeling. Other people might
Speaker 1: identify that as something else, like oh, I I feel
Speaker 1: excited or I feel scared, or there are so many
Speaker 1: different ways to label and interpret the ways that emotions
Speaker 1: come up in the body. I'm such a geek about
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff that it makes me so happy.
Speaker 1: And so lastly on this topic before I want to
Speaker 1: talk about your Instagram career too, but you talk about
Speaker 1: not forcing gratitude, and you know, I'm actually a big
Speaker 1: fan of gratitude journals. My listeners have heard me go
Speaker 1: on and on about this, but I will tell you
Speaker 1: the reason I like them is because I don't feel
Speaker 1: anything when I'm writing in my gratitude journal. So I
Speaker 1: try to It's just a part, just a way to
Speaker 1: get connected to my umself in the morning, and I
Speaker 1: handwrite it just that I don't like immediately start checking
Speaker 1: email or make coffee. You know, I will just write
Speaker 1: ten things I'm grateful for and I don't have to
Speaker 1: feel it. I'm not sitting there like singing on a
Speaker 1: mountaintop and feeling spiritual. But it's just very concrete things,
Speaker 1: you know, friendships, I don't know. I just looked in
Speaker 1: the mirror and hey, I look pretty good. You know.
Speaker 1: I like that I accept myself today or whatever. And
Speaker 1: then I now have this notebook of proof of things
Speaker 1: that are kind of awesome in my life. And so
Speaker 1: when my ruminations are going or I want to beat
Speaker 1: myself up, I just can't look at what I wrote.
Speaker 1: You know, no one else wrote. It's not bullshit, And
Speaker 1: so I like it as like I'm keeping a record, um,
Speaker 1: but you're talking about in your book that you know. Again,
Speaker 1: here comes the shame. It's like we shame ourselves into
Speaker 1: thinking we have to feel gratitude all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think gratitude can drift into like toxic positivity territory
Speaker 1: when we are using it to shame ourselves or as punishment.
Speaker 1: It sounds like what you're doing is like a very
Speaker 1: calculated positive decision to sit down and reflect on those things. Now,
Speaker 1: if you were crying about something I'm really upset and
Speaker 1: someone was like, you need to be grateful, you should
Speaker 1: go sit down and write in your gratitude journal, that
Speaker 1: would probably be a really different experience, um than your
Speaker 1: morning ritual that you've developed. And that's the fine line there,
Speaker 1: I think where it's all about. It's it's a great tool,
Speaker 1: but not all tools fit in every situation, and you
Speaker 1: have to be careful not to tell people that are
Speaker 1: going through a hard time. You're like, well, they're starving
Speaker 1: kids here, or at least it's not that like gratitude
Speaker 1: using shame to adduce gratitude is not effective. And by
Speaker 1: the way, like if we are these people that live
Speaker 1: in a wealthy country and have a pretty good life,
Speaker 1: like we're in a position to help others and and
Speaker 1: shaming ourselves is really not going to help anybody, and
Speaker 1: so you know it doesn't Yeah, it doesn't solve any
Speaker 1: problems at all. But I do think that, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a fine line, right like, there is something to
Speaker 1: be said for perspective, which is which is um, you know,
Speaker 1: there's someone going through a hard time, and then there
Speaker 1: can be someone who is like an anxious person who's
Speaker 1: caught in like negative loopy thinking where they're like literally
Speaker 1: believing that everything is so hard for them when it's
Speaker 1: really not. But again, I don't think like gratitude is
Speaker 1: the solve for that, right right I. Perspective is extremely powerful.
Speaker 1: I just think it's again about the timing and also
Speaker 1: thinking about like how can I organically a lot like
Speaker 1: you were doing, Notice what's good in my life? So
Speaker 1: if I'm going through a hard time, I can say, like,
Speaker 1: this has been really hard, and I'm so glad I
Speaker 1: have support of my friends to get through this, and
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that I had a meal dropped off
Speaker 1: for me tonight, Like there are ways to validate what
Speaker 1: you're going through and recognize that something is is good. Lastly,
Speaker 1: the word I meant to mention earlier was compassion. That
Speaker 1: that seems to be your um you know, like for you,
Speaker 1: like the the opposite of toxic positivity sounds like it's
Speaker 1: really like compassion for yourself because there there isn't a
Speaker 1: lot of compassion for yourself in you all of this
Speaker 1: positive thinking. You know, yeah, I think compassion for yourself,
Speaker 1: accepting what is and I'm having hope for the future
Speaker 1: are like the powerful combo that we all could benefit from.
Speaker 1: And self compassion is like a really good brick on
Speaker 1: the road to loving yourself, right, It's like you can
Speaker 1: start there at least exactly. And so along this talk
Speaker 1: of positivity is you know, we see it every day
Speaker 1: on social media. We see all kinds of horrible things
Speaker 1: on social media, but there are so many people that
Speaker 1: whether it is they are some kind of influencer or
Speaker 1: even just someone who's posting a lot of memes or whatever,
Speaker 1: you know, social media can be a really hard place
Speaker 1: to not go into that like comparing and despairing or
Speaker 1: not get sucked into wanting to be like these people
Speaker 1: and do positive thinking. But you have a great um
Speaker 1: social media presence, like you're known as Instagram's favorite therapist,
Speaker 1: right and you have sit with wit and so how
Speaker 1: has social media been, for lack of a better word,
Speaker 1: a positive thing for you? Yeah? So you know, I've
Speaker 1: really crafted my social media and way that I'm only
Speaker 1: following people now that I like to follow, and if
Speaker 1: someone's making me feel really bad about my life, I
Speaker 1: don't follow them. I'm trying to rework my relationship with
Speaker 1: social media now because the algorithm is always changing. They're
Speaker 1: always wanting you to do something different. Um that I
Speaker 1: feel like, I love the community that I've built there.
Speaker 1: I love being able to interact with people, but I
Speaker 1: also have to watch myself with how much a time
Speaker 1: I spend dedicated to that space, or even comparing myself
Speaker 1: to other therapists, other people that are doing I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's launching this, she has that, and it can I
Speaker 1: can fall into that same trap. It must be so
Speaker 1: hard because therapy is to be such a literally private practice,
Speaker 1: and now you can have a social media presence and
Speaker 1: you can be this kind of circuit therapist for people
Speaker 1: before they get help, or just to get a different
Speaker 1: perspective even if they aren't therapy. And it must be
Speaker 1: hard to not fall into ut um trap of like
Speaker 1: comparing yourself to others and like trying to push that
Speaker 1: angle of your career um which didn't really exist ten
Speaker 1: years ago, you know, like you didn't get into it
Speaker 1: for Instagram, you know, no, no, And and there's definitely
Speaker 1: like people who think that therapists shouldn't be doing that.
Speaker 1: There's people who think it's good. It's it's so complicated,
Speaker 1: it's I am grateful for it. I hope you had
Speaker 1: fun listening to my conversation with Whitney Goodman. And here
Speaker 1: are the takeaways from our conversation. And again you can
Speaker 1: find these on my website Jen Kirkman dot com and
Speaker 1: then click anxiety Bites again. The link will be in
Speaker 1: the show notes. So toxic positivity is an overarching pressure,
Speaker 1: a demand to be happy and positive and seeking that
Speaker 1: out all of the time, no matter the circumstances. Toxic
Speaker 1: positivity can imposed on us from other people, or we
Speaker 1: can impose it on ourselves. And sometimes it's just a
Speaker 1: cultural force. When we tell people that the only feeling
Speaker 1: they can have during a tough time like the death
Speaker 1: of a loved one is hope, and that they need
Speaker 1: to have a positive outlook. Sometimes we're just using hope
Speaker 1: to try to pull others out of situations that they
Speaker 1: might actually need to stay in and grieve first. When
Speaker 1: we suppress our emotions with positive thinking, they can end
Speaker 1: up intensifying and coming out in other ways. People who
Speaker 1: say they don't have negative feelings may still have strained relationships,
Speaker 1: disrupted sleep, wonky eating habits, or substance abuse, again, all
Speaker 1: signs that they're not processing and feeling their emotions. If
Speaker 1: you're trying to suppress or control something that's bothering you
Speaker 1: with positive thinking, eventually you will see things like anxiety
Speaker 1: or depression symptoms show up. Turning only to positive thinking
Speaker 1: can inhibit one's ability to learn how to solve problems
Speaker 1: and create different types of solutions. The research on positive
Speaker 1: thinking is that when people insist that things will all
Speaker 1: work out, they're not engaging in any type of critical
Speaker 1: thinking of what could go wrong, what problems could develop,
Speaker 1: what skills do I need to have. It can leave
Speaker 1: someone feeling inept in situations and wondering why things didn't
Speaker 1: work out. Anxious people who are able to call out
Speaker 1: problems and want to do something about it may be
Speaker 1: more successful at handling things than someone who only practices
Speaker 1: positive thinking, which can only take you so far until
Speaker 1: things start to fall apart. Whitney Goodman wants us to
Speaker 1: normalize and deep pathologize the human condition and let people
Speaker 1: know that uncertainty is normal. There's a middle road of
Speaker 1: uncertainty that can give us gifts of trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what's important to us, what we want, what we
Speaker 1: don't want. In not accepting uncertainty, we miss out on
Speaker 1: data and learning life skills, and we can use uncertainty
Speaker 1: to our advantage and normalize it within limits. Instead of
Speaker 1: pushing toxic positivity on others. We can validate what's hard
Speaker 1: for us and for others, and also believe in the
Speaker 1: potential that things could get better and even be great.
Speaker 1: The problem with relying too heavily on the law of
Speaker 1: attraction is when the world is cruel and random, it
Speaker 1: can cause people who have gone through difficult things to
Speaker 1: conclude that they attracted their illness or their trauma because
Speaker 1: of something they did. The law of attraction can venture
Speaker 1: into toxic positivity when people are constantly on edge about
Speaker 1: their thoughts and what they're attracting to themselves. The notion
Speaker 1: of manifesting can be toxic when there's a dynamic of
Speaker 1: blaming the victim. The person we should be supporting and
Speaker 1: helping through something is instead hearing that they did this
Speaker 1: to themselves and they should be more positive next time.
Speaker 1: The human brain really like certainty, and so we create
Speaker 1: narratives where even if the narratives are bad or punishing us,
Speaker 1: we still feel bad or because we feel like we
Speaker 1: know why something happened. Research shows that positive affirmations don't
Speaker 1: actually work well for people with low self esteem. Being
Speaker 1: told to say things like I love myself can bring
Speaker 1: up feelings of shame, and this person will end up
Speaker 1: looking for reasons to reject the notion or get caught
Speaker 1: in a negative spiral. Whinney works with clients on more
Speaker 1: believable and dynamic affirmations. Instead of saying I love myself,
Speaker 1: she would suggest affirming something like I am trying to
Speaker 1: love myself, or I am working on loving myself, or
Speaker 1: even something more specific like I show myself love by
Speaker 1: drinking water or I show myself love by going to
Speaker 1: bed at night. When people with low self esteem are
Speaker 1: told to affirm I love myself many times a day,
Speaker 1: what they're doing maybe in direct conflict with that, like
Speaker 1: not eating well, not sleeping, not going outside. Those aren't
Speaker 1: the actions of someone who loves themselves. There are, of course,
Speaker 1: positive aspects of manifesting, such as the identification of knowing
Speaker 1: what you want, learning to imagine something for yourself and
Speaker 1: being able to visualize it, but also bring in that
Speaker 1: realistic piece of accepting that we may not all be
Speaker 1: able to achieve everything we want and that's okay. Looking
Speaker 1: at trying to create a value driven life versus a
Speaker 1: happiness driven life is one way out of the trap
Speaker 1: of toxic positivity. Choosing a value driven life, you're living
Speaker 1: in line with what's important to you instead of avoiding
Speaker 1: experiences that disrupt in order to stay quote happy, and
Speaker 1: living a value driven life will most likely bring you
Speaker 1: to things that provide joy and fulfillment. As a therapist,
Speaker 1: witness sees a weird conundrum of being human, and that
Speaker 1: is that people don't want to feel alone in their problems,
Speaker 1: but they also want to be very unique. An emotion
Speaker 1: is a physiological complex reaction pattern that is determined by
Speaker 1: the significance of the event. Feeling is your conscious awareness
Speaker 1: of the emotion itself. And the opposite of toxic positivity
Speaker 1: isn't negative thinking, but instead having compassion for yourself, accepting
Speaker 1: what is, and having hope for the future. Again, if
Speaker 1: you would give this podcast a five star review, a
Speaker 1: positive but not toxically positive review on iTunes and Spotify,
Speaker 1: that will help other people find the podcast, which helps
Speaker 1: me maybe do another season of this show. So the
Speaker 1: more people that listen, the better the chances of that,
Speaker 1: and you help that all in your hands, so please
Speaker 1: go write a five star review. You can even just
Speaker 1: give it five stars and write love it something simple.
Speaker 1: Send me an email Anxiety Bites Weekly at gmail dot
Speaker 1: com if you would like to submit your tips and
Speaker 1: tricks for your anxiety disorder, if you have any questions
Speaker 1: or just want to make a general comment about any episode,
Speaker 1: and as well, you can find everything you need to
Speaker 1: know about Whitney Goodman in the show notes. Thanks again
Speaker 1: for listening, and remember Anxiety Bites, but You're in control.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows,