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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: I'll Never Told You production of Iheartradium, And today we

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Speaker 1: are bringing back a classic that we did with Bridget

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Speaker 1: around politics and misinformation and disinformation. Because we are in

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Speaker 1: perpetual election season, it seems there's been a lot of

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Speaker 1: headlines recently about some AI generated photos that are misleading,

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Speaker 1: outright lies in some cases. And then I got this today.

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Speaker 1: I got a message about this, and I think we

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Speaker 1: should come back into a whole episode about it. But

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Speaker 1: it was from an article called women are Getting Off

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Speaker 1: birth Control a mid misinformation explosion. It's from the Washington

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Speaker 1: Post and I read it and I was very concerned

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Speaker 1: about it. It was all about like these lies that

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Speaker 1: women are being told about birth control that they're getting

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Speaker 1: from social media, largely things that are like it'll change

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Speaker 1: you're attracted to. It'll be somebody who's less traditionally masculine. Yeah, no, yep,

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Speaker 1: horror of horrors. I don't even know what you I

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Speaker 1: know what you mean, but I'm like, really, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, I feel like they're saying like the stereotype of masculine.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, it'd be that what we see is like

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Speaker 3: them calling themselves alphas or just dicks exactly, and therefore

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Speaker 3: how I feel, and that has nothing to do with

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Speaker 3: birth well, it was kind of a birth control. I

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Speaker 3: don't want to have a baby with you.

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Speaker 1: Right right, That's that's about how I feel. But also

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Speaker 1: like honestly threatening women that they'll gain weight, which I

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Speaker 1: think is very toxic, that you should just be cycling,

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Speaker 1: like timing yourmnstruation cycle for your brick control, which yea

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Speaker 1: science is that's not there. And surprise, surprise, there is

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Speaker 1: a very conservative push behind this, which is terrifying because

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Speaker 1: everything that's going on with abortion, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: have been coming in saying like I've been doing this

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Speaker 1: that I've read on that I saw on social media.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm pregnant and I can't get an abortion, and

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Speaker 1: the doctor's sort of like I also read this quote

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Speaker 1: from the article. To be anti fertility is to be

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Speaker 1: anti woman. So what when we like talking about our

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Speaker 1: Comstock episode we recently did. They're putting the roots down

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Speaker 1: even harder now with this. They are really like trying

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Speaker 1: to set the stage for what they're going to do

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Speaker 1: into further making it difficult to get access to reproductive rights,

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Speaker 1: to healthcare it is a bigger issue than I can

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Speaker 1: talk about. Obviously, I hope in a classic intro because

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Speaker 1: there's other pieces at play here for why it's exploding

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Speaker 1: right now. But all that being said, we are seeing

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Speaker 1: a huge wave of misinformation, so please keep that in mind.

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Speaker 1: I believe our listeners are very savvy. But it's just

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Speaker 1: worth saying because I've had two friends of mine tell

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Speaker 1: me a piece of news lately and I was like,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't seem right, and then when we got.

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Speaker 2: To the bottom of it, it was not. It was

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Speaker 2: not right, So can.

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Speaker 1: Happen to anybody? Please be aware, yes, But in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode.

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Speaker 2: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Steffan Never Told your protection of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Today listeners.

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Speaker 1: We are so excited we have such such a et

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Speaker 1: episode for you, and we have such a wonderful guest,

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Speaker 1: Bridget Todd, past host and host of There Are No

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Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet, the podcast, which you should absolutely

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Speaker 1: check out, is here joining us today.

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Speaker 4: Hello, I'm so excited to be here hang out with

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Speaker 4: you guys during the quarantine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, we're so excited to have you. And we're

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Speaker 1: also excited because this is the first of a regularly

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Speaker 1: occurring segment about women about the Internet. Would you like

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Speaker 1: to describe kind of what you're envisioning for this segment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what I'm envisioning is, you know, I'm the kind

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Speaker 4: of person who is online all day, every day on Twitter,

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Speaker 4: looking at memes and all of that, and from all

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Speaker 4: of that time, useless time spent online stories about women,

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Speaker 4: about marginalized voices about you know, how we are showing

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Speaker 4: up online always occur, and so I thought the smintee

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Speaker 4: listenership might appreciate going into those rabbit holes with me

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Speaker 4: and talking about some of the ways that a our

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Speaker 4: stories show up or don't show up.

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Speaker 5: On the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, the listeners know. I'm a big fan of

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Speaker 1: a good Internet rabbit hole. I like to spotlight a

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole today because you never know what you'll find.

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Speaker 1: And I've been like racking my brains trying to think

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Speaker 1: of a clever name for this segment. So if you

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Speaker 1: have any ideas on that, Bridget or any listeners have

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Speaker 1: any ideas, just just I'm all ears. I love a

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Speaker 1: good title for things. Yeah, I want to I want

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Speaker 1: to throw much to the listeners.

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Speaker 4: I bet listeners probably have some good some good ideas.

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Speaker 5: I hadn't thought about that though.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, we love good title alliteration is even better, So.

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Speaker 5: Alliteration can't be that yes, yes, yes, yes.

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Speaker 1: And I keep saying segment, which isn't totally accurate. This

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Speaker 1: is like a series, and for today, as we are

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Speaker 1: in the United States, we're in this. It feels like

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Speaker 1: more season is not accurate to say, but that's what

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Speaker 1: most people call it. We're talking about disinformation and misinformation

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Speaker 1: and election season and women and how all of that

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Speaker 1: interacts correct exactly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I was partly inspired by the episode that

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Speaker 4: y'all did on q Andon and women.

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Speaker 5: I think that we often assume.

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Speaker 4: That when things happen online, you know, the deep ball

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Speaker 4: assumption is that the person online is a white male,

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Speaker 4: and so as we know that is not true, we

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Speaker 4: often kind of leave out this very critical and growing

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Speaker 4: section of people who are having these important experiences online.

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Speaker 4: And so I was really happy to see that y'all

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Speaker 4: spotlighted women and QAnon and that very strange intersection there.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, it was just really inspired.

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Speaker 4: By the work that y'all have been doing.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's another interesting aspect too, because, as you say,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the default assumptions are this internet user

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Speaker 1: is white male, and even when you think of QAnon,

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Speaker 1: you think white male.

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Speaker 5: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: It is a.

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Speaker 1: Growing phenomenon that more and more women are becoming involved

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Speaker 1: in QAnon and being involved online in QAnon, which is, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're not hearing too much about that, but we really

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Speaker 1: should be looking into why that's going on exactly.

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Speaker 6: That's what we were talking about with the major candidate

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Speaker 6: that's running for the US House of Representative here in Georgia,

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Speaker 6: Marjorie Green, who is a QAnon advocate and has used

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Speaker 6: that as part of our platform and is winning and

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Speaker 6: is winning and is most likely going to be elected

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Speaker 6: because she's not being contested. The one man who was

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Speaker 6: contesting her in the Democratic Party dropped out because of

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Speaker 6: unknown threats. So that says a lot in itself. And

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Speaker 6: that's kind of one of the things that I love

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Speaker 6: that we're talking about this because not only are they

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Speaker 6: playing and I say they as a broader day of

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Speaker 6: QAnon and people of conspiracy theory, which originated as possibly

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Speaker 6: a joke to see what they can fish fish out

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Speaker 6: into this fear of motherhood and children and It's kind

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Speaker 6: of just opened up this huge world of oh my god,

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Speaker 6: what is happening and why are we being so misled

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Speaker 6: and why does it seem to be specifically targeting women

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Speaker 6: in this misinformation?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's These are all great points.

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Speaker 4: I think that you know, you brought up this connection

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Speaker 4: between like QAnon and like fear of motherhood. I think

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Speaker 4: that it really goes down to the fact that women

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Speaker 4: often are marginalized or not supported, They're not heard, and

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Speaker 4: so we have to take these issues that are very

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Speaker 4: real issues in our life to the Internet, and I

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Speaker 4: think that that can make us vulnerable in these like,

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Speaker 4: very specific ways. Combine that with the fact that people

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Speaker 4: assume that Internet users are all men.

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Speaker 5: The way the very specific.

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Speaker 4: Ways that women are being targeted and are vulnerable for

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Speaker 4: this kind of exploitation just go unexamined, untalked about. And

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Speaker 4: I think there's also an assumption that quote unquote women's

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Speaker 4: spaces online, you know, uh, places like Pinterest or places

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Speaker 4: like Facebook groups for moms or like anti vacs Facebook groups,

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Speaker 4: things like that, there's this assumption that there's nothing worth

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Speaker 4: investigating going on in these groups. But we know that

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Speaker 4: this allows them to be hotbeds for disinformation and misinformation,

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Speaker 4: which is actually really harmful.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And actually, before we get too deep into this conversation,

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Speaker 1: would you mind explaining the difference between disinformation and misinformation.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's a question I get a lot. So misinformation

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Speaker 4: is misleading or incorrect information that leads to somebody being misled.

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Speaker 4: They might not actually have, you know, bad intent, or

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Speaker 4: they're not there may not they may not necessarily be

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Speaker 4: like spreading bad or inaccurate information on purpose, but they

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Speaker 4: are leading somebody to be misled. Disinformation, on the other hand,

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Speaker 4: is nefarious intentional spread of inaccurate information. And so a

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Speaker 4: good way that you can think about it is misinformation

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Speaker 4: is misleading. Disinformation is a damn lie. Right, This is

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Speaker 4: like someone is lying to you on purpose to cause

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Speaker 4: some kind of problem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And we've seen a lot of that unfortunately during

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Speaker 1: this election cycle. And also it's been interesting seeing kind

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Speaker 1: of social media companies struggling to deal with this and

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Speaker 1: hearing a lot about that in the news of you know,

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Speaker 1: flagging this tweet is false or whatever. What in your

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Speaker 1: experience as someone who is on the internet a lot,

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Speaker 1: what kind of disinformation strategies are you seeing?

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Speaker 5: So many.

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Speaker 4: Right, So a big one that people are probably kind

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Speaker 4: of familiar with is people will impersonate, marginalize people, oftentimes

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Speaker 4: black women, to just honestly so discord and confusion. Right,

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Speaker 4: So that's one when it comes to women candidates really

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Speaker 4: playing into biases, so you know, spreading falsehoods about women

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Speaker 4: candidates being you know, shrill or unstrustworthy or incompetent. We

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Speaker 4: know these things are not grounded in fact, but these

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Speaker 4: are messages that really take off on social media and

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Speaker 4: I can really have a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 4: a big impact. Things like cheap fakes. You know, we

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Speaker 4: people are pretty familiar with deep fakes, these videos that

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Speaker 4: are you know, not real or manipulated in some way,

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Speaker 4: but we also have cheap fakes where a video is

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Speaker 4: taken out of context and spread on social media, you know,

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Speaker 4: saying as if like, oh so and so has said

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Speaker 4: this thing, but actually it's a it's an out of

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Speaker 4: context snippets that's a cheap fake.

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Speaker 5: But all of these different ways that are.

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Speaker 4: Really meant to create confusion in voters and really meant

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Speaker 4: to have people, particularly women and people of color, just think, well,

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Speaker 4: the system is rigged, The system is so confusing.

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Speaker 5: It's so chaotic.

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Speaker 4: That I'm just going to check out of the democratic

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Speaker 4: process altogether. It's not worth it, right, Yeah, And you know.

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Speaker 1: We've talked a lot about on this show those words

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Speaker 1: that you kind of use that we see leveled at

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Speaker 1: female politicians, and how ambition is like my favorite one,

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Speaker 1: where like a man being ambitious is great, but a

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Speaker 1: woman being ambitious Wait a minute now, And then I

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Speaker 1: remember the episode you and I did bridget where about

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Speaker 1: reporters in India getting slutshamed and just like waking up

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Speaker 1: to an inbox full of these very disturbing images of

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Speaker 1: your face on some other woman's body and some like

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Speaker 1: horrific act like violence being perpetrated against you, and sharing

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Speaker 1: those images with your family, with the world, with everybody,

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Speaker 1: And just how like even me thinking about that that

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Speaker 1: makes my just tense up, Like that's it's so awful.

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Speaker 1: And I was just wondering if you could speak to

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Speaker 1: sort of this gendered attack and gendered disinformation.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: There was actually a recent study by Lucina di Meco,

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Speaker 4: who is a senior expert and advocate and a writer

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Speaker 4: on women's leadership in gender equality. The study is called

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Speaker 4: She Persisted and it really shows the ways that disinformation

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Speaker 4: is so gendered, and so that's one of the reasons

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Speaker 4: why it's so important to.

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Speaker 5: Talk about it through this lens.

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Speaker 4: You know, social media can really be a double edged

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Speaker 4: sword for women in politics. On the one hand, it

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Speaker 4: really allows women to have this platform to cut through

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Speaker 4: chatter and have direct communication with the public, but also

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Speaker 4: that is where we get these incredibly biased, gendered, sexist attacks.

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Speaker 4: So the thing that you talked about with the journalist

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Speaker 4: in India, sensitive images, whether they're like sometimes doctored, sometimes

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Speaker 4: not real, that is a common occurrence for women running

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Speaker 4: for office or women in politics in general. And I

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Speaker 4: would even take it a step further and say women

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Speaker 4: in public, women who speak their mind or have an

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Speaker 4: opinion in public, right, Like, there is nothing people love

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Speaker 4: to pile on more than a woman who has an

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Speaker 4: opinion in public. And oftentimes the way that these attacks

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Speaker 4: are framed are very gendered. You know, research actually shows

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Speaker 4: that men, even men of color, when compared to their

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Speaker 4: female colleagues of color, don't get the same kind of attacks, right,

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Speaker 4: And so they're highly racialized and highly gendered.

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Speaker 6: And I think it's really interesting when we talk about

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Speaker 6: women of color being really ridiculed when we look at

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Speaker 6: Kamala Harris and her even debate style, the fact that

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Speaker 6: the matter was that she was holding back, but even

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Speaker 6: with our holding back and making a few faces still

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Speaker 6: made her a target as being overly disingenuous, untrustworthy, and

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Speaker 6: according to Trump, a monster. Like with that, how do

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Speaker 6: we actually talk about this kind of level of misogyny

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Speaker 6: slash racism, especially when we're in this type of debate,

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Speaker 6: especially in this type of election, Well, how do we

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Speaker 6: address it? How do we make sure we call it

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Speaker 6: out as we see it?

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Speaker 5: Well, that's a great question.

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Speaker 4: One of the organizations I work with, Ultraviolet, actually created

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Speaker 4: a media guide.

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Speaker 5: You can find it if you.

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Speaker 4: Just google Ultraviolet Media Guide. I'm sure you can find

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Speaker 4: it to help us spot and talk about these incredibly racialized,

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Speaker 4: gendered attacks on not just Kamala Harris, all women of color. Right,

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Speaker 4: they could often be very subtle, things like calling Kamala

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Speaker 4: Harris quote aggressive.

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Speaker 5: We know that's a dog whistle for.

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Speaker 4: Black women who speak their mind are very assertive in

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Speaker 4: their speech style. So sometimes they can be really subtle.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes they can be really obvious, right, like Trump calling

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Speaker 4: Kamala Harris a monster, you know, after her debate style,

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Speaker 4: we know that these are just you know, especially when

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Speaker 4: you think about Trump, he has a pattern of lashing

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Speaker 4: out at black women when he feels attacked, and so

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Speaker 4: this is nothing new from him. But I also think

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Speaker 4: the media really plays a role in shaping how we

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Speaker 4: talk about and think about these kinds of sexist, gendered attacks.

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Speaker 4: And so one of the things that we've really been

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Speaker 4: working on with Ultra Violet is trying to have a

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Speaker 4: little bit of a media accountability and say, you know,

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Speaker 4: if Trump says something that is a racist, sexist attack

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Speaker 4: on a black woman in politics, don't put don't repeat

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Speaker 4: that in the headline so that it goes all over

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Speaker 4: social Because evidence shows that the more people see something,

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Speaker 4: even if it's not true, they believe it. And so

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Speaker 4: if Trump perpetuates a racist, sexist attack on a black woman,

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Speaker 4: if a news article puts that attack in the headline

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Speaker 4: and it just goes all over social media, people will

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Speaker 4: start to believe that, right, even if we all know

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Speaker 4: it's to be as And so really making sure that

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Speaker 4: we understand and know how to spot these attacks and

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Speaker 4: that we're able to hold the media accountable when they

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Speaker 4: you know, unwittingly perhaps, you know, perpetuate it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I know last time you were here,

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Speaker 1: you spoke about how in twenty sixteen there were these

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Speaker 1: Russian actors. There was a Senate inquiry that found that

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Speaker 1: these Russian actors were behind a lot of disinformation attacks

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Speaker 1: that were specifically targeting black people to keep them from

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Speaker 1: voting in twenty sixteen. And is that our foreign countries

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Speaker 1: normally behind disinformation.

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Speaker 5: That's a great question.

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Speaker 4: So in that case in twenty sixteen, you know, the

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Speaker 4: Senate inquiry did ton affirm that these were likely Russian assets.

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Speaker 4: But I almost find that focusing on foreign entities and

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Speaker 4: foreign and bad actors makes us let our guard down

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Speaker 4: for the reality, which is that a lot of these

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Speaker 4: tax and campaigns are actually domestic. They're you know, homegrown

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Speaker 4: attacks on women and people of color. And so I

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Speaker 4: think it's really important that we say, like, yes, we

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Speaker 4: have documented evidence that these things happen in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 4: but also in twenty twenty. It's not just foreign actors,

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Speaker 4: it's people right here in the United States who are

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Speaker 4: trying to sow chaos and distrust, right.

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Speaker 6: And I noticed the surge of accounts coming up with

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Speaker 6: stock photos of black men or black people who are

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Speaker 6: saying and it's all the same tweet essentially saying that

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Speaker 6: they were no longer going to be voting for Democrats

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Speaker 6: because they no a long with trust the system and

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Speaker 6: now are going to be Republicans and have for the

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Speaker 6: first time, you know, voted as a Republican.

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Speaker 5: What is this surge?

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Speaker 6: And is this kind of like the lazier form of

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Speaker 6: the buye because it's obvious stock photos when you start

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Speaker 6: like looking at it, but then it's kind of like, wait,

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Speaker 6: why even put that effort?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's almost kind of funny when you

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Speaker 4: look at it. I actually did an episode with this woman,

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Speaker 4: Shapeka Hudson, who you know, she started the hashtag your

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Speaker 4: slip is showing to call out some of these fake

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Speaker 4: accounts posing as black people. And what's funny is that

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Speaker 4: when you actually at first glance, you're like, oh, this

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Speaker 4: is a suspiciously good looking black person who is leaving

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Speaker 4: the Democratic Party after years, okay, But then when you

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Speaker 4: actually keep looking, you think like, oh, well, this the

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Speaker 4: way that he's phrased this sounds like this other tweet

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Speaker 4: I saw, or oh the way that he's using you know,

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Speaker 4: he's he the way that he's using like African American

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Speaker 4: vernacular English just seems a little bit off. Honestly, if

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Speaker 4: you dig into them and like look at them enough,

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Speaker 4: I think that they have these little tells.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, I.

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Speaker 4: Think, you know, creating this impression that there is a

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Speaker 4: mass exodus of black people from the Democratic Party by

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Speaker 4: using these fake accounts. I could see how it would,

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Speaker 4: you know, just be so confusing and like, I mean,

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Speaker 4: he's like, you see these tweets and you're like, what's

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Speaker 4: going on?

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Speaker 5: I could like the ultimate goal.

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Speaker 4: Was to get people to just be like, the political

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Speaker 4: process doesn't make sense to me. It's so confusing. I'm

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Speaker 4: not even going to be involved. And I can see

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Speaker 4: how that would actually, you know, lead to that. What's

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Speaker 4: funny is that in twenty sixteen, somebody sent me a

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Speaker 4: link to a Twitter account that used my picture from LinkedIn,

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Speaker 4: like an old headshot, and this person was saying all

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Speaker 4: of these very strange things about Hillary Clinton, and you know,

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Speaker 4: I flagged the account and it was taken down, But

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Speaker 4: I never quite figured.

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Speaker 5: Out what was going on. It just was a very

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Speaker 5: weird situation.

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Speaker 4: And this was way before we knew or I knew

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Speaker 4: any of this, and you know, I never.

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Speaker 5: I was just like, what is this?

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Speaker 4: Who would who would take my LinkedIn picture, make go

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Speaker 4: through the trouble of making a Twitter account and then

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Speaker 4: have these like incredibly like I don't know how to

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Speaker 4: put it, but incredibly fake bad like obviously not.

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Speaker 5: A non black person trying to pretend to.

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Speaker 4: Be a black woman kind of tweets like who would

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Speaker 4: do this?

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Speaker 5: Now? I know?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 5: Well?

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Speaker 6: And on top of that, as we were reading, we

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Speaker 6: know Canice Owens, who has been a big proponent for

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Speaker 6: Trump talking about black people for Trump, she actually created

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Speaker 6: a blexit event Like that feels like a whole new

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Speaker 6: level of trolling. And on top of that, admitting like

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Speaker 6: allegedly paying a few of the attendees to even.

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Speaker 2: Come to this event.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god, what kind of level is this? And

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Speaker 5: I have to say, you know, I live in Washington,

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Speaker 5: d C.

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Speaker 4: This happened, and this event happened at the White House.

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Speaker 4: I was so sam I like all the things you

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Speaker 4: just said, yes, yes, yes, But also I was so

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Speaker 4: curious when that event was happening because I'm thinking, you know,

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Speaker 4: there's still a pandemic. You have a group of black

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Speaker 4: people who are you know disproportionately impacted by COVID you

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Speaker 4: group'im on the White House lawn?

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Speaker 5: Who knows? Max? Who knows? Right?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 5: Who knows?

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Speaker 4: I was furious to see that, literally imber thinking from

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Speaker 4: what I understand, people got there lodging and.

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Speaker 5: Meals paid for by attending the event.

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Speaker 4: The idea of these people being like unleashed on my

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Speaker 4: city and going into restaurants.

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Speaker 5: I was furious, furious.

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Speaker 6: As you should be because that's irritating as well. But

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Speaker 6: speaking of canus Owens, I didn't want to kind of

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Speaker 6: talk about her whole play because it again coming back

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Speaker 6: to Kamala Harris and just anyone in person of color

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Speaker 6: in general coming out attacking Kamala for not being black enough,

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Speaker 6: not being Indian enough, not being able to qualify as

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Speaker 6: this type of person and able to speak and say yes,

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Speaker 6: I am a person who is making kind of headway

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Speaker 6: and trying to be in leadership. Why do you think

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Speaker 6: that this type of rhetoric is not only harmful but

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Speaker 6: can work in some cases in deterring people to vote

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Speaker 6: for her.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that we just really don't understand how

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Speaker 4: to talk about race and ethnicity and our heritages. I

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Speaker 4: really don't like Candice Owen, but you know, she tweeted,

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Speaker 4: I am so excited that they get to watch Kamala Harris,

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Speaker 4: who swore into Congress as a quote Indian American, now

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Speaker 4: plays a black woman card all the way to November, right,

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Speaker 4: Like I have to say, if you were someone who

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Speaker 4: was hell bent on misrepresenting people's identity to weaponize it

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Speaker 4: against them, that's effective, right, And so.

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Speaker 5: I think that she really I think that people.

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Speaker 4: Like Owen really play into the fact that people don't understand,

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Speaker 4: you know, people's identities in this country. The idea that

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Speaker 4: Kamala Harris, you know, her identity can contain multiple things.

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Speaker 4: That's how identities work. We don't have a lot of

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Speaker 4: I think that people don't really necessarily understand how to

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Speaker 4: talk about that, and so it leaves the issue very

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Speaker 4: vulnerable to be exploited by people who you know, want

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Speaker 4: to weaponize someone's actually like someone's identity, like who they are.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: Kamala Harris has been even before she was in the

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Speaker 4: national spotlight, has been so clear about the ways her

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Speaker 4: Indian American heritage and her you know, African American heritage

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Speaker 4: have really made her the person that she is, you know,

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Speaker 4: grounded her in her identity, and that's so beautiful and

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Speaker 4: so rich, and honestly, it's such an expression of I

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Speaker 4: would say, the platonic ideal of America, that someone could

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Speaker 4: have different identities and those identities could enrich them and

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Speaker 4: become part of who they are and their legacy. To

440
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 4: tear that down and then try to reframe that to

441
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 4: weaponize it against somebody I think is so like vile,

442
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 4: but unfortunately it's effective.

443
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And speaking of Kamala Harris, I know that when

444
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, forever ago, we saw these attacks on Hillary Clinton.

445
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: I remember being, oh my gosh, back.

446
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 2: When you could go out and do things.

447
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 1: I was at a rally and somebody had a sign

448
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: for Hillary Clinton and this was a college in Atlanta.

449
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 2: That said like go back to the kitchen.

450
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: So how would you say, like the difference, what differences

451
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: do you see in these attacks on Hillary Clinton and

452
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: the attacks on Kamala Harris.

453
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say, you know, I remember those attacks

454
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 4: on Senator Clinton.

455
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 5: You know, oh gosh, I mean it seems like forever.

456
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 4: Ago now, but you know, so many gendered attacks, like

457
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 4: do you remember when she had pneumonia and people acted

458
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 4: like she was, you know, one foot in the grade

459
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 4: that store.

460
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, she needed to quit, immediately, quit campaigning, quit everything

461
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 6: because she was about.

462
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 5: To die exactly. I mean, yeah, people, it's just so simple.

463
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 4: People just don't like women, right, And so definitely she

464
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 4: we all saw it. She had these incredibly gendered attacks

465
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 4: on her character. But I think when it comes to

466
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 4: you know, Kamala Harris, I think whenever you occupy intersecting identity,

467
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 4: So if you're a woman and you're also black or

468
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 4: you know, whatever intersection intersecting identities you have, that always

469
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 4: makes attacks more salient, right, because people are exploiting your

470
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 4: identity to create this sort of layered attack. And so

471
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 4: she's not just being attacked because she's a person of color.

472
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 4: She's not just being attacked because she's a woman. She's

473
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 4: being attacked because she's a woman of color. And it

474
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 4: has the added problem of the fact that if we

475
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 4: don't really know how to talk about race, and so

476
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 4: these attacks often go overlooked. It's almost kind of like

477
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 4: a gas lighting, right that she could be the recipient

478
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 4: of these gendered, racist attacks. But that because we don't

479
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 4: know how to talk about race, we would pretend that

480
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 4: they're not happening right when we're not talking about them.

481
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 4: And so I think that that it's always going to

482
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 4: be you know, it's hard for women, but I think

483
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 4: that for women of color it will always be disproportionately

484
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 4: more difficult.

485
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I it's strange because twenty sixteen does feel

486
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: so long ago, but it also feels like the specter

487
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: that's just like hanging over and it's I've seen arguments

488
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: still to this day of people being so hurt and

489
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: understandably so from that election. And that was, at least

490
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: in my case, one of the first instances I got.

491
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 1: I was familiar with disinformation, and especially on online social media.

492
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 2: As we are.

493
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: Entering twenty twenty, the people are voting now I voted,

494
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: what strategies?

495
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: How do you think it will be different?

496
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: How do you think disinformation will be different in twenty

497
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: twenty or what what do you think what do you

498
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: expect is going to happen in the realm of disinformation

499
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: and this twenty twenty election?

500
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 6: And can I add to this too, because now we're

501
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 6: also seeing not only disinformation from outside people, we're seeing

502
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 6: it directly from the source of our president at this

503
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 6: point in time, that he's retweeting things in disinformation, real

504
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,719
Speaker 6: disinformation that are harmful to many people out there, and

505
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 6: we see that as contant. He's getting on the damn

506
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 6: phone with people and going off rants with disinformation that

507
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 6: is being heard by instead of social media just being

508
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 6: by the forties fifty year old boomers, like the senior citizens,

509
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 6: who may truly believe what he is saying and ranting about.

510
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 6: Can you talk about that as well, and how that

511
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 6: is affecting this year's election as opposed to what it

512
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 6: was before.

513
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Sam, your point is so accurate. With

514
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 4: Trump in the White House, it is like a disinformation

515
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 4: super spreader of like event every day. You know, there

516
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 4: was just a study I can't remember the exact study,

517
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 4: but I can find it that said that Trump is

518
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 4: the number one spreader of COVID disinformation and misinformation, right,

519
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 4: And so think about that something that could impact someone's health,

520
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 4: something that in like physically harm communities. He is the

521
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 4: number one person who is spreading it, right, things about

522
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 4: false cures, things about you know, like when he when

523
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 4: he talked about how like like just in like completely incorrect,

524
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 4: harmful information. And so I think what's different this year

525
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 4: is that we do have someone who is has proven

526
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 4: time and time and time again that he is not

527
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 4: above spreading disinformation and misinformation, no matter how harmful it is.

528
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 5: And so I think that is a real difference.

529
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 4: You know, one of the things I've seen in my

530
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 4: research on disinformation is the way that when Trump tweets something,

531
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 4: it can get picked up on so quickly and spread

532
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 4: so fast, right, And so I think that's a real

533
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 4: difference that we are going to have to contend with

534
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty, that we have someone who is so

535
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 4: powerful and has such a huge megaphone and has so

536
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 4: many people's ears, like you said, you know, spreading this

537
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 4: information that could really get somebody hurt and really impacts

538
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 4: our democracy. I think I would say another thing that

539
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 4: we are seeing a lot of in twenty twenty that

540
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 4: I think has gotten worse is bad actors' willingness to

541
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 4: exploit existing fractures in our communities. And so, you know,

542
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 4: I did an episode of my show There Are No

543
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 4: Girls on the Internet about Vanessa Yinn, the soldier who

544
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 4: was killed, and you know that was during that happened

545
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 4: during earlier in the summer, when we had all of

546
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 4: these uprisings for you know, black lives, folks like Breonna

547
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 4: Taylor and George Floyd. And we saw bad actors online

548
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,239
Speaker 4: putting these messages on huge Facebook pages with lots and

549
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 4: lots and lots of reach, saying things like why should

550
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 4: the LATINX community support the Black community when quote they

551
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 4: killed one of.

552
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 5: Our own, right, And so everybody knows that.

553
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 4: Marginalized communities are stronger when we work together, but it's

554
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 4: very savvy how they exploit these existing fractures in communities

555
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 4: to continue to cause chaos and spread confusion, right. And

556
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 4: so I think that in twenty twenty, we've seen a

557
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 4: lot more willingness.

558
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 5: Of bad actors to exploit really.

559
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 4: Sensitive topics, topics that take nuance or thoughtfulness to discuss publicly,

560
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 4: and just collapsing them into you know, us against.

561
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 5: Them, or this is why we shouldn't vote.

562
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 4: Democrat, or these things that divide us instead of unite

563
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 4: us because we're so much stronger when we're united.

564
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: We have some more for you listeners, but first we

565
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: have a quick break for word from our sponsor, and

566
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: we're back.

567
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: Thank you sponsored.

568
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 6: As you're talking about the issue with the one marginalized

569
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 6: group up pitted against another in order to break down

570
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 6: and divide of I've just recently read an article talking

571
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 6: about how men in the Latino community are there's a

572
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 6: big chunk of them that are voting for Trump because

573
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 6: the appeal of his matismo, as they say, is like

574
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 6: that the manliness of his appeal has actually spoken to

575
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 6: this group of people. And I find that very interesting

576
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 6: because we see that played time and time again as

577
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 6: where he's exploited that I'm a man's man in order

578
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 6: to get these votes and get this louder vote, and

579
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 6: even to the point that we have groups that are

580
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 6: talking about make women great again.

581
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 5: Have you seen this?

582
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 6: No, So it's this whole campaign where they are there's

583
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 6: a group of men, right wing men who are going

584
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 6: around trying to take money for women to come to

585
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 6: conventions to be taught to be womanly, feminine and back

586
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 6: into the original role of what women should be.

587
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 5: But it's kind of they've taken.

588
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 6: This huge art on being who they are and playing

589
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 6: on it because of this new found need to have

590
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 6: this conversation about we need to be more manly but

591
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 6: community and Trump is getting us to be mainly again.

592
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 6: Have you seen this as a part of like a

593
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 6: push in this disinformation. Is this manly machismo kind of rhetoric.

594
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 4: Oh, first of all, I just have to I have

595
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 4: to ask, like, what the hell kind of things do

596
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 4: you think they're teaching women in these trainings?

597
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 6: Like I oh, oh my gosh, I think it's like

598
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 6: how much money was like ten thousand dollars. It was

599
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 6: at their Florida convention, ten thousand dollars, and then they

600
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 6: gave this march huge marked down price and it's just

601
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 6: like ten men talking to women about being feminine.

602
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 5: Oh my god.

603
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 4: If I if I could like wear like dress up

604
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 4: in some sort of disguise.

605
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,479
Speaker 5: And go to one of these with like a camera,

606
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 5: Oh my god, look out.

607
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 4: It's such a good question, though, I think that, you know,

608
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 4: you make such a good point. I think that it

609
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 4: really comes down to Trump's willingness and effectiveness at exploiting

610
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 4: these biases that exist in our society, so biases around women,

611
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 4: misconceptions of like what it is to be like.

612
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 5: A manly man or a womanly woman. You know.

613
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 4: I think that Trump is very effective at exploiting these things.

614
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 4: And the reason why they work is because these old

615
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 4: these old school stereotypical notions of what it means to

616
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 4: be a woman, what it means to be a man,

617
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 4: all of these sort of traditional ideas.

618
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 5: They have been baked into our society for so long.

619
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 4: I mean you you all do such a good job

620
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 4: of breaking them down every week.

621
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 5: Right.

622
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 4: We know that these things have staying power, and that's

623
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 4: why they're so effective for people at Trump and these

624
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 4: this group of whoever who is who was like charging

625
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 4: ten thousand dollars also talk about that price point that

626
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 4: is a lot of money.

627
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 6: That might be over exaggerating, but it was a lot

628
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 6: of money, and I was like, who the hell is

629
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 6: going to pay this?

630
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 5: What? I know?

631
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 4: I'm so curious. I would love to get a syllabus

632
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 4: for this.

633
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 6: Court web page and it's yeah, it's incredible. But yeah,

634
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 6: there's also this whole level of him coming after suburban wives.

635
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 6: Literally at the recent rally, he is begging suburban women,

636
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 6: please vote for me, please like me. I'm trying to

637
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 6: make your community safe again.

638
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

639
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 4: I think it really just goes back to his willingness

640
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 4: to try to exploit these very traditional ideas of.

641
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 5: What women want.

642
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 4: I'm not going to sit here and say that I

643
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 4: think that Trump has any kind of a good read

644
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 4: on what women want. But I think it's like his

645
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 4: him trying to him, assuming that he does, and trying

646
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 4: to trying to exploit that.

647
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 5: You know.

648
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 4: It really makes me think about how in earlier waves

649
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 4: of the alt right and things like that, organizing online,

650
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 4: all the ways that they were kind of appealing to

651
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 4: manly men who were sick of these like soy boy,

652
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 4: betas right it really it really, I mean gender the

653
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 4: jet like gender norms are our mother fer That's all

654
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 4: I can say, right, it really, really we are so

655
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 4: our society is it's so bake into our society in

656
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 4: these toxic, harmful ways that watching them play out on

657
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 4: you know, the election stage or in politics or online

658
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 4: in these ways, it's just so it's just truly so bizarre.

659
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: You know.

660
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 6: On top of that, as we're sitting here talking about it,

661
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 6: I have kind of named off every person that he's

662
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 6: been begging to notice him, whether it's using token black

663
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 6: people in order to get them into line and not

664
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 6: doing the blexit, or appealing to suburban women. But the

665
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 6: one group of people that he's really not talked to

666
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 6: or actually even notice are typically marginalized women women of color,

667
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 6: specifically black women.

668
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 4: Oh of course, right, if you look at the numbers

669
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 4: of black women who voted for Trump, we knew better.

670
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 4: Like black women were not falling for it, you know,

671
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 4: and I mean they always It's almost like a cliche

672
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:48,959
Speaker 4: at this point when we talk about politics, like listen

673
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 4: to black women, black women do we do know what's up?

674
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 5: Right?

675
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 4: But like whatever he was selling, we were not buying.

676
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 4: We see him attack black women, our sisters, like Kamala Harris,

677
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 4: like White House correspondent, you, michelsondor, you know, like April Ryan.

678
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 4: We see him attack our sisters every day. There's just

679
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 4: we're not We're not We're not going to do it.

680
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 4: Like there's nothing We're not buying what he's selling.

681
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 5: No.

682
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 4: It is funny that it's like he's he's he realizes

683
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 4: like I'm not gonna win with them.

684
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 5: It may I may as well just cut my losses.

685
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 6: You really, he's like literally just like throws his hands up,

686
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 6: like never mind.

687
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 5: Next.

688
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 6: It's really interesting when you really focus on his his

689
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 6: goals and you're.

690
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 5: Like, oh, we see who you're afraid of exactly.

691
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: I do want to add in here too.

692
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: One idea I was reading about this a couple of

693
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: years ago.

694
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 2: And it's just really stuck with me.

695
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: Is if you look at the here in the United States,

696
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, there's almost been

697
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: a masculinization and a feminization of like masculinization of the

698
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 1: Republican Party, feminization of the Democratic Party, and just seeing

699
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 1: that play out, and and the Republican Party really really

700
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: leaning into that because in our society, masculine is better, Right,

701
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: be aggressive, be rude, tell women that they belong in

702
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: the kitchen or whatever whatever, because you're speaking your mind,

703
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: and that's okay. But that is something that I've been

704
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: thinking about a lot, and I feel like I am witnessing.

705
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, just look at the way that they

706
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 4: talked about masks at the debate between Trump and Biden, Right,

707
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 4: Biden wore a mask his people he was with war masks.

708
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 4: I think it was a Republican commentator Tommy laren or

709
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 4: I don't know if that's her name, however you say it,

710
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 4: who tweeted something around along the lines of nice mask,

711
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 4: Biden may as well carry a purse what?

712
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 6: And this was after Trump and them tested positive.

713
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 4: Right, Like, do do some of these Republicans think that

714
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 4: you can be manlier than a virus, like you can

715
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 4: be you can sort of out masculine a contagion. What

716
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 4: do they think this this this equation with people on

717
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 4: the left with like feminization. So if you are wearing

718
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 4: a mask because you want to protect you and your

719
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 4: and your the people around you, that's you know, you

720
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 4: may as well be carrying a purse, right, you know

721
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 4: this idea that being I mean, they've they've even shown

722
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 4: that one of the big problems when it comes to

723
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 4: COVID is that men don't feel manly when they wear

724
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 4: a mask, so they don't And just think about how

725
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 4: how how sick that is, how how toxic that traditional

726
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 4: gender roles?

727
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 5: When when when, when like taken to.

728
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 4: This level, how harmful it is that people are willing

729
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 4: to get sick and make others sick just to conform

730
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 4: to these rigid ideas of gender. Is it really is

731
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 4: so sad, like gender is a hell of a drug.

732
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 6: Really, I mean, it really is kind of funny because

733
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 6: they did make this a masculine thing, to the point

734
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 6: that when Trump was sick and came back, they were like,

735
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 6: he beat it, He's a real man.

736
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 5: He out did this and he's.

737
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 6: Too strong for that, like literally putting on these things

738
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 6: as of he fought in a wrestling match and beat

739
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 6: a world champion, like it was that level.

740
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 5: And that's what people were pushing.

741
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 6: Even to the point that he's talking about being immune

742
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 6: and of course spreading more disinformation, causing this whole conversation

743
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 6: about wanting to kiss people, which is a whole different

744
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 6: weirdness that I was like, what is happening? But all

745
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 6: of that to say is like it has become this

746
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 6: fine line. And it started at the very beginning of

747
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 6: the virus, like at the very beginning when they're like

748
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 6: this could be preventative, let's try this, it became a

749
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 6: a is a female versus male thing, it's a feminine

750
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 6: versus a masculine thing. And it's played even deeper as

751
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 6: more and more, over two hundred and what fifteen thousand

752
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 6: people have died in our country and it's kind of like,

753
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 6: what is happening in this point as well as the

754
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 6: fact that the majority of people who are really affected

755
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 6: is the black community, is the elderly community, are those

756
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 6: with morbidities, and why are we seeing that as a week?

757
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought this up. I hate

758
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 4: that so much. I think that there's so much wrong

759
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 4: with this equating. You know.

760
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 5: So if you follow that logic.

761
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 4: That Trump is strong because he was able to quote

762
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 4: unquote beat COVID, you know, so whatever you know, does

763
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 4: that mean that the over two hundred thousand people that

764
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 4: we have lost were week And I also think it

765
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 4: really plays into this ablest trope around sickness, around healthy bodies.

766
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 4: You know, I really I hate the way that we

767
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 4: talk about it. I truly do. And I think we

768
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 4: saw it at the beginning of the pandemic when the

769
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 4: party line or the standard line was only the sick

770
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 4: and weak will die, and there was this sort of

771
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 4: implication of you know, A, they're expendable and B there

772
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 4: was a sort of unsaid vibe at least that I

773
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 4: felt like I saw where it's like, wouldn't we be

774
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 4: better off without them anyway?

775
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 5: You know? And I just think that like it really.

776
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 4: Played into these incredibly disturbing ablest tropes around you know,

777
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 4: whose lives are valuable and whose aren't, and who's are

778
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 4: expendable and who's aren't. Just because you're somebody who is

779
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 4: older or somebody who is you know, chronically ill.

780
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 5: Your life matters. You deserve to live a fulfilling.

781
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 4: And enriching life. You're not expendable in society. People talking

782
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 4: about like their grandparents. Just because your your grandparent is

783
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 4: elderly doesn't mean that they can just.

784
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 5: Die and it's fine.

785
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 4: I really, I really have a big problem with the

786
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 4: way that the way that that was framed early on,

787
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 4: and certainly the way that Trump talking about COVID as

788
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 4: you beat it like as if it was a wrestling match,

789
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 4: the way that that kind of played into it, I.

790
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 5: Really really hate it.

791
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 6: Right, and then again him counting this whole herd immunity,

792
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 6: which the World Health Organization just was like, police, this

793
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 6: is unethical and immoral to play pretend like this is okay,

794
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 6: because what you're saying in the herd immunity mentality is

795
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 6: people should die and they'll be okay. That literally giving

796
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 6: permission to kill off people because they're not quote unquote

797
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 6: strong enough when in actuality, we don't know who is

798
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 6: affected exactly why. I mean, we obviously know that some

799
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 6: of the people who have been affected, with not some

800
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 6: a lot of people who have been affected have com

801
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 6: abilities and have died. Doesn't mean they should have died,

802
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 6: doesn't mean they would have been dead without that. This

803
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 6: is kind of the argument that I've had to have

804
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,439
Speaker 6: with people. I'm like, yeah, but tell me this, because

805
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 6: the same argument that was like, well, everybody's dying of

806
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 6: COVID nowadays, even if it's not COVID, they're just putting

807
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 6: it on death certificate. So I'm like, but tell me this.

808
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 6: If it wasn't for COVID, would they be alive right now? Well, yeah, okay, then,

809
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 6: oh my god. It's this whole mentality.

810
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 4: Bless you for entertaining these conversations and trying to inform

811
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 4: the masses a loss of.

812
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 6: My family, to be honest, But anyway, uh yeah, that's

813
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 6: just such a whole big thing. But it kind of

814
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 6: comes down to once again this whole like masculine versus

815
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 6: feminine point of view and why we continue to have

816
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 6: to have a fight about what's wrong and what's right,

817
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 6: and we know, let's talk about the current Supreme Court

818
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 6: hearing in confirmation is the fact that there is a

819
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 6: lot at stake, especially for marginalized people, most likely for

820
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 6: mar Yeah, absolutely, can we talk about this whole like

821
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 6: they're trying to make her a hero because she is

822
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 6: a mom who has adopted black children, which I want

823
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 6: to vomit, but just go ahead and add that there

824
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 6: be because that's nothing more infuriating than tokenizing children because

825
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,959
Speaker 6: the family may have done something that is just fine

826
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 6: and responsible, and it is that something you're called to

827
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 6: do and if you find yourself in a good place

828
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 6: that you can adopt these wonderful children that need Holmes

829
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 6: was great, But we also know that a lot of

830
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 6: times this comes with white savior complex, which has a

831
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 6: lot of implications and a lot of trauma behind this.

832
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 6: And now we're seeing it played as her plant being

833
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 6: the hero and they're touting her.

834
00:44:58,640 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 5: As a new RBG.

835
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 6: Can we talk about how social media is kind of

836
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:03,720
Speaker 6: helping in this rhetoric.

837
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's funny that you say this.

838
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 4: So my in one of my day jobs, I'm working

839
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 4: with feminist groups and women's groups to you know, track

840
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 4: this and you know, keep an eye on how messages

841
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 4: about her are being framed online. And you're exactly right

842
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 4: that she is being framed as this feminist hero. And listen,

843
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 4: Sam to your point about the way that she has

844
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 4: been framed as a hero for adopting black children. I mean,

845
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 4: just one proximity to blackness does not make someone anti racist.

846
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 4: So being so saying like I have an adopted black daughter,

847
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,240
Speaker 4: I have a black you know spouse, I have black friends.

848
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 4: Obviously that doesn't make somebody anti racist. And two, what

849
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 4: really makes me sad is that that thinking, the thinking

850
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 4: that she is a hero for adopting black children, it

851
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 4: really just it really leaves out the adopted kids.

852
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 5: You know.

853
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 4: I just really hate the way that when we have

854
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,479
Speaker 4: these conversations, they often cent her, the white person who

855
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 4: adopts did children you know, their story, you know, as

856
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 4: a hero, or their story as someone who you know,

857
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 4: did this great thing, And it really just leads doesn't

858
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 4: leave a lot of room for the agency of the kids.

859
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 4: And I think that like most people who I know

860
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 4: who have adopted children for them, they say, you know, oh,

861
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 4: don't tell me that my kids are so lucky that

862
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 4: I adopted them. We are the lucky ones that we

863
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 4: adopted our kids. And I think that most people who

864
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 4: have adopted kids really want to center their kids and

865
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 4: not make it seem like they's some kind of a

866
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 4: hero for what.

867
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 5: They did, right. I think it's fun.

868
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,240
Speaker 6: I found it interesting because one of the first things

869
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 6: I saw about her was of course a misleading post.

870
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 6: Not misleading, it was misleading because they posted a picture

871
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 6: of her sister instead of her and their black children,

872
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 6: which I.

873
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 5: Hilarious, just walk about.

874
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 6: You can't even find their like hell family, I mean,

875
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 6: come on, But that's the first thing they wanted to

876
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 6: tell was well, obviously she can't be racist because she

877
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 6: has two children. Obviously she uh is anti choice because

878
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 6: she believes an adoption. And of course I am adopted

879
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 6: as well, And I get told that often to my face,

880
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 6: that I should be anti choice because I was, you know, saved,

881
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 6: because I wasn't aborted, And I'm like, well, no, there's

882
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 6: a whole lot of other complications to that story, and

883
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 6: we won't we won't go there. But being told that

884
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 6: you should be grateful and having these things, but honestly

885
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 6: putting this on a platform and making her the idealist.

886
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 6: But we know that, uh, the white couple that actually

887
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 6: drove the children off the cliff and killed themselves and

888
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:36,959
Speaker 6: the children with them. We see things like that which

889
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 6: doesn't always happen. I talked about a family recently who

890
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 6: are YouTube families, adopted an Asian child who was autistic

891
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:43,959
Speaker 6: and then gave them away.

892
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 5: I remember that. I remember that.

893
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 4: And what's what's a lot about that story is that

894
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 4: when they were trying to adopt their child, Hutsley, they

895
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 4: gave him a new name, but they chose was Huxley.

896
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 4: They were before that, they were on message boards asking

897
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 4: people were looking to adopt someone from another country who

898
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 4: has disabilities, but as they put it, like disabilities that

899
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 4: are easier to manage, you know, like they were it

900
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 4: seemed as if they were trying to gear upon Yeah,

901
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 4: they were hand picking.

902
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 5: You know, their child for what.

903
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 4: It seems like we want to get, we want to

904
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 4: get the attention that comes with this, but we don't

905
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 4: want it to be that hard. Like I really that story.

906
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 4: Not to go off on a tangent, but that story

907
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 4: just broke my heart. It really broke my heart. When

908
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 4: people say things like this to your face about how

909
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 4: you must feel about abortion because you're someone who was adopted.

910
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 5: What like what is that like? Like, what is your response?

911
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 6: Oh girl, this is a whole big conversation. But a

912
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 6: lot of I mean a lot of this has to

913
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 6: do with the anxiety of being having an imposter syndrome

914
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 6: and being told this is about what I should feel

915
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 6: and when I am against it or what I don't

916
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 6: feel that way, having to backtrack and explain myself even

917
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 6: more because I feel like I have to justify something

918
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 6: that shouldn't have to be automatically justified. That makes sense, Yeah,

919
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 6: and so yeah, it's this is a whole narrative that's

920
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 6: placed on me that I'm like, grew up with saying yes,

921
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 6: I'm so grateful, I'm so grateful, don't say anything bad,

922
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 6: don't say anything bad, and then waking up as an

923
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 6: adult be like that sucked. Some of these things are

924
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 6: really bad and having to acknowledge that. And that's kind

925
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 6: of the thing. Is like when you sit here in

926
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 6: the background and she's not necessarily she because I can't

927
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 6: say she did it, but whoever is trying to push

928
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 6: her forward as a saint is using her children as

929
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 6: the narrative, as subjects, as tokens for her her. It's

930
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 6: an incredibly distraught type of moment of like, what the

931
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 6: hell are you doing? You're using these kids without knowing

932
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 6: what the hell is happening behind behind the scenes, and.

933
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 4: Kids aren't props, you know, kids aren't props. To further

934
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 4: some rhetorical message or you know idea. It's just it's

935
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,919
Speaker 4: so like I said, I just feel I feel bad

936
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 4: for kids who have to whose stories get reduced in

937
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 4: public in this way. And I can't even imagine what

938
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 4: that feels like.

939
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 6: Right well, I mean, just now that I've gone on

940
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 6: my tangent, just to go back, it's kind of incredible

941
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 6: to see how social media has been pushing her this way,

942
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 6: even the White House tweets have been pushing her in

943
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 6: this way of trying to a make acb happen, as

944
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 6: if she is the new you know, Ruth Bader, and

945
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 6: I'm like, no, stop it and be trying to hide

946
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 6: any of her past stuff, including the several conversations and

947
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 6: seminars that she was a part of that was very

948
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 6: anti choice. And it's kind of interesting to see how

949
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 6: the social media narrative has really dwindled it down to

950
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 6: making her the hero.

951
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 4: Oh yes, oh yes, And I think that you know,

952
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 4: I like if you if like so. The hearing is

953
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 4: going on today right now as we're as we're recording this,

954
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 4: and I checked into it earlier, and the conversation on

955
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 4: social media one is really being dominated by folks on

956
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 4: the right who are doing exactly that. And so I

957
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 4: do think that they are just kind of hitting this message,

958
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 4: like you know, the idea that if you say something

959
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 4: a million times, it kind of makes it seem true.

960
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 4: They're just continuing to hit this message like she is

961
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 4: the new feminist hero. Isn't it great that we that

962
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 4: we get to, you know, have this new feminist hero.

963
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 4: Something that someone said when RBG died is that so

964
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 4: many of the things, the specific policies and things that

965
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 4: RBG gave us, you know, things that have made not

966
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 4: just the lives of women, but everybody better. It's like

967
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 4: RBG opened the door, and now the person who is

968
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 4: trying to take her place is shutting.

969
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 5: That door for so many of us. And it's just

970
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 5: it's like twisting the knife.

971
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 6: Man.

972
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 5: I don't know, it's so it's so hard.

973
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 4: It's been a rough it's been I mean not to

974
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:41,280
Speaker 4: be too dramatic, but when.

975
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 5: RBG died, it was.

976
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 4: The cherry on like it felt like the cherry on

977
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 4: a sandwich of a year. Like that's the one I

978
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 4: can say it.

979
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: We have a little bit more for you listeners, but

980
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: first we have one more quick break.

981
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:14,760
Speaker 2: For word from our sponsor and er back, Thank you, sponsor.

982
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 6: What are some things that we can do to stop

983
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 6: some of this misinformation from being spread right now?

984
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 4: Well, the most important thing to think about is, you know,

985
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 4: there's so much disinformation and misinformation out there. The most

986
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 4: important thing that all of us, anybody listening.

987
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 5: Right now, can do is to become.

988
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 4: A trusted source of accurate and positive information. Right so,

989
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 4: you know, make sure that the people in your community

990
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 4: have the accurate information they need to vote, make sure

991
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 4: that they understand what they're voting for, who they're voting for,

992
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 4: make sure that they have that information, and kind of

993
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 4: become an influencer.

994
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:52,720
Speaker 5: In your own little pocket of the internet.

995
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 4: Even if you only have five ten followers, somebody on

996
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 4: your timeline, whether it's your family member, your friend, probably

997
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 4: look to you and.

998
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 5: Thinks this person knows what they're talking about.

999
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 4: I can count on this person to provide accurate information.

1000
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 4: So focus on, you know, becoming that person in your

1001
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 4: online community.

1002
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,760
Speaker 5: And really that is a good the most.

1003
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 4: Important thing we can all do to inoculate our communities

1004
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 4: against disinformation. Another important thing to note is you don't

1005
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 4: want to inadvertently help disinformation or misinformation spread.

1006
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:26,439
Speaker 5: I see this all the time on social media.

1007
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 4: Because of the way that social media works, it's algorithm based.

1008
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 4: People you know, will see a tweet that's wrong or

1009
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 4: misleading and they'll retweet it to debunk it. But because

1010
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 4: the algorithm is just like pushing it into more people's

1011
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 4: feed so you're actually helping it grow. So never retweet,

1012
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 4: never share, even if it's to debunk it, because you're

1013
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 4: only going to make it grow. So instead focus on

1014
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 4: just posting positive information and accurate information about how people

1015
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 4: can vote and make sure that folks know, make sure

1016
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 4: that people have the information they need to vote in

1017
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 4: these new, these different ways that we're doing it now,

1018
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 4: vote by mail, all of that, make sure that they

1019
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 4: have the information they need to do it safely, and

1020
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 4: just focus on putting that message out.

1021
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:08,320
Speaker 2: Oh those are great tips.

1022
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: What are there any resources you want to shout out

1023
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: or any groups you want to shout out who are

1024
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,240
Speaker 1: particularly fighting disinformation right now?

1025
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 4: Well, Ultraviolet, a groups that I work with, is really

1026
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 4: doing a lot of work to make sure that just people,

1027
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 4: you know, everyday people have the information they need to

1028
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 4: you know, not make disinformation spread. Also, groups like the

1029
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 4: Pen America Foundation are putting together guides. Sam you mentioned

1030
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 4: that you often have conversations with your family if you're

1031
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 4: someone who's listening and you're like, yes, I know this,

1032
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 4: but my wild uncle posts wild things in the group

1033
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 4: chat or on the WhatsApp group or on Facebook.

1034
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 5: Pen America Foundation has a great.

1035
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 4: Guide about how to talk to the people in your

1036
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 4: community about their use or spread of disinformation or misinformation,

1037
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 4: Because nobody wants to be the person that's like getting

1038
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 4: into a long ass Facebook back and forth with your

1039
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 4: uncle that you're going to see at Thanksgiving and it's

1040
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 4: going to get awkward, and everybody's going to be seeing it.

1041
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 4: Like nobody wants that. There are better ways to do it,

1042
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 4: So definitely check out pen America's guide.

1043
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 2: Love it are there.

1044
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 1: What do you think like social media companies should be

1045
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 1: doing to deal with all of this?

1046
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I mean they've pretty much done nothing,

1047
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 4: so I think they could start by doing something. You know,

1048
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 4: I think we really have to have a real reckoning

1049
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 4: around the ways that social media platforms like Facebook and

1050
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 4: Twitter have allowed disinformation to run rampant and really cause

1051
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 4: chaos and our democracy. So at the very base level,

1052
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 4: I would love to see, you know, Facebook be more

1053
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 4: transparent about their policies and how they are enforced. Enforce

1054
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 4: their existing policies that are on the book, you know,

1055
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 4: every now and then when they have some sort of

1056
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 4: big pr disaster like that kid out in Kenosha who

1057
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 4: shocked those two protesters and used Facebook events to organize

1058
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,800
Speaker 4: you know, come to arms or you know, beare arms rally,

1059
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 4: that event went against their policies. So you know, it's

1060
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 4: difficult to trust Facebook when they come and say like, oh,

1061
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 4: we're gonna have a new policy, we're gonna crack out

1062
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 4: on this, or that they should be enforcing their existing

1063
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 4: policies and you know, having more transparency around how those

1064
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 4: policies are enforced. So that's the very baseline thing they

1065
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 4: can do to help prevent the spread of harmful disinformation

1066
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 4: and misinformation and also violence on their platforms.

1067
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I hope that. I hope that happens

1068
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 1: because I know all of us are being exposed to

1069
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: this more and more, and we have people we care

1070
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 1: about being exposed to it more and more. And I

1071
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: hope that next time you're on show, Bridget our conversation

1072
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: is more positive and upbeat.

1073
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 5: I don't know where.

1074
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 2: We'll be in a month from now.

1075
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: But fingers crossed, fingers crossed.

1076
00:56:58,440 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 5: I hope so too. I hope so too.

1077
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, so thank you so much for being

1078
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 1: here and having this conversation, much needed conversation. So looking

1079
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,240
Speaker 1: forward to having you on the show in the future.

1080
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: Where can the listeners find you in the meantime, Well, you.

1081
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 4: Can listen to and subscribe to my podcast. There are

1082
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 4: no girls on the internet. On iHeartRadio, this very network,

1083
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 4: we don't just have enraging conversations.

1084
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 5: Some some of them are fun and.

1085
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 4: Interesting and insightful or touching.

1086
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 5: They are not just in raging, I promise.

1087
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 4: And you can follow me on Twitter at at Bridget

1088
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 4: Marie or on Instagram at Bridget Marie and.

1089
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 1: DC awesome and definitely do that listeners if you're not

1090
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: doing it already. If you would like to contact us,

1091
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: you can Our email is Stuff Media Moms Stuff at

1092
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Instagram at

1093
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: stuff I Never Told You or on Twitter at mom

1094
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard.

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Speaker 5: Thanks Andrew, and.

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Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You,

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Speaker 1: The production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio is

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows.