Speaker 1: Cool Media.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff.
Speaker 2: You were weekly reminder that I have a podcast. My
Speaker 2: name is Margaret Kiljoy and it's a podcast called Cool
Speaker 2: People Do Cool Stuff. You probably caught that when I
Speaker 2: said it the first time. But in addition to rambling,
Speaker 2: I also have a guest, and my guest is Jolie Holland. Hi,
Speaker 2: how are you?
Speaker 1: Hi? I'm the fine. How are you? I?
Speaker 2: You know, before we hit record, we both were like,
Speaker 2: how are you doing? And we were both like, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I guess because the world isn't doing so great.
Speaker 2: But it's okay because this is a history podcast, so
Speaker 2: what does that matter? Jolie Holland For anyone who hasn't
Speaker 2: heard of you, is a singer songwriter, musician? What's the
Speaker 2: I don't know what?
Speaker 1: Hey?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I sing and I play songs and yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean it's funny because I read them.
Speaker 1: There's a nice The way they say it in Spanish
Speaker 1: is really beautiful. Okay, sounds better in Spanish.
Speaker 2: Yeah than singer slash songwriter.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because that's like a singer songwriter implies a genre
Speaker 3: and I think that's silly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough. Well, anyone who hasn't heard should listen
Speaker 2: to Julie Holland, one of my friends who was staying
Speaker 2: with me recently, was very excited that you were going
Speaker 2: to be on the podcast, and we were arguing about
Speaker 2: which songs are our favorite, and I picked Old Fashioned
Speaker 2: Morphine and she picked I Want to Die. So there's
Speaker 2: two options for anyone listening who's never heard your stuff,
Speaker 2: but these were both a bit older. What's your more
Speaker 2: recent stuff?
Speaker 1: My last record is called Haunted Mountain.
Speaker 2: It's also good.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I have a framed print of the song itself. Oh
Speaker 2: you might have noticed, dear listener, that Sophie isn't here. Sophie,
Speaker 2: where did you go? I know where Sophie went, but
Speaker 2: did where did you go? It's been so many episodes
Speaker 2: or producer lists. It's un produced, but we do have
Speaker 2: an audio engineer who's named Rory. Hi Rory. You have
Speaker 2: to say hi to Rory too, Hi.
Speaker 3: Ri.
Speaker 2: Our theme music was written forced by a woman who's
Speaker 2: also a singer song writer. Okay, yeah, So I was like, well,
Speaker 2: I have Jolie on, I have all these books about
Speaker 2: an arcopunk, and I was like, I'm gonna do an
Speaker 2: episode about an archo punk, and specifically, I am going
Speaker 2: to do an episode about the band Crass. You heard
Speaker 2: the band Crass?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had the same accountants as them for a minute.
Speaker 2: Oh really, that's kind of wild. Before we get into it,
Speaker 2: you probably know a fair amount of this story, and
Speaker 2: maybe more of it than I do. But what do
Speaker 2: you know about Crass and a narco punk coming into it?
Speaker 1: I don't know much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting that that my you know, closest direct
Speaker 3: connection with them is that I had the same business
Speaker 3: managers as them for a minute. Like I have some
Speaker 3: old records in storage that have Crass written on them
Speaker 3: because they reused the boxes.
Speaker 1: I'm excited about this.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, So we're gonna talk about punk, rock and anarchy,
Speaker 2: and we're going to talk about a bunch of hippies
Speaker 2: who started a punk band in the late seventies with
Speaker 2: a token punk and uh completely reinvented the genre of
Speaker 2: punk and changed the esthetic landscape of the world and
Speaker 2: had more direct influence on modern anarchist politics than you
Speaker 2: would expect. And uh, yeah, we're gonna talk about punk.
Speaker 1: That's amazing.
Speaker 2: Art is so much power, I know, I know, for
Speaker 2: better and worse, which is fun. It's fun to play with.
Speaker 2: So what's funny about punk is that it's a bit
Speaker 2: of a blank canvas upon which many people have written,
Speaker 2: kind of like a blank brick wall in a crumbling
Speaker 2: city when you see a wall covered in graffiti. Some
Speaker 2: of it's really cool and it says things like eat
Speaker 2: the rich, and some of it is racist, and some
Speaker 2: of it is people writing Bob was here. And I
Speaker 2: think that's a good summation of punk. A those are
Speaker 2: the three types of punk I think. And I'll put
Speaker 2: up with Bob was here, and I quite like to
Speaker 2: eat the rich. I can't fuck with the racist graffiti.
Speaker 2: I can't in good conscience tell you that punk was
Speaker 2: always anarchist, or that we have any real claim to
Speaker 2: starting the whole thing. No one ideology or band can
Speaker 2: really claim to have started the whole thing. Well, lots
Speaker 2: of them do. Lots of them do, and they all
Speaker 2: have kind of many of them have like a legitimate claim,
Speaker 2: which means none of them can truly claim it. But
Speaker 2: anarchists have been there from the beginning, and we've done
Speaker 2: incredible things with it. And I'm going to start this
Speaker 2: history of punk in the same place that I try
Speaker 2: to start all of my stories when I can get
Speaker 2: away with it. The Spanish Civil War, eh wow. Although
Speaker 2: actually later we can talk with the etymology of punk
Speaker 2: and there's literally punk music in the nineteenth century, but
Speaker 2: we'll get to that.
Speaker 3: I'm taking a non alcoholic drink in honor of that.
Speaker 2: So I'm starting with the Spanish Civil War because I'm
Speaker 2: going to start with a death knell of classical anarchism.
Speaker 2: As people listen to the show, a lot people might
Speaker 2: know that there was big, huge labor movement that had
Speaker 2: all different types of socialists, and one of those types
Speaker 2: of socialists was libertarian socialists or anarchists. And after being
Speaker 2: a major political force for nearly one hundred years, anarchists
Speaker 2: were killed in such numbers at the opening of the
Speaker 2: twentieth century, specifically, especially by the time we get up
Speaker 2: into World War II, that their ideas went underground for
Speaker 2: a long time. The Spanish Republic fell, fascist forces took
Speaker 2: over Spain, anarchists went underground, and they did some good work.
Speaker 2: They drove the tanks that liberated Paris from the Nazis.
Speaker 2: But you've got this sort of dead period of anarchism.
Speaker 2: You can claim the dead period started and ended at
Speaker 2: different points. You can say from the fall of the
Speaker 2: Spanish Republic in nineteen thirty nine until the rise of
Speaker 2: the anti globalization movement at the end of the nineteen nineties,
Speaker 2: or you could be like from the end of World
Speaker 2: War II to the start of anti authoritarian stuff in
Speaker 2: the pippy movements of the sixties and seventies. Whatever specific
Speaker 2: numbers here don't really matter. But for decades, the part
Speaker 2: that matters, the part that I'm excited about, there's this
Speaker 2: period where they're it's just like, not these large social
Speaker 2: movements that have large anarchist groups within it. For a while,
Speaker 2: only two political forces were triumphant across the world, Western
Speaker 2: capitalism and Soviet and Chinese communism. Right, those are the
Speaker 2: two big middle of the twentieth century things going on.
Speaker 2: But anarchism didn't go away. An anarchists didn't, well, a
Speaker 2: lot of them did, a lot of them died. Whenever
Speaker 2: people are like this is a tangent, Whenever people are like, oh,
Speaker 2: you can't kill an idea, then I like look at
Speaker 2: history and I'm like, well, you can get really close.
Speaker 2: Yeah you can.
Speaker 3: You can vary it layers of bullshit so that nobody
Speaker 3: knows what it is anymore or like layer gossip on
Speaker 3: top of it, you know, or kind of deflections.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can. You can kill most of the practitioners,
Speaker 2: and then the people who are left you can just yeah,
Speaker 2: you can slander them. You can not bother to mention
Speaker 2: that they have ideas beyond you know, this or that
Speaker 2: music or whatever. You know. And you know, we've covered
Speaker 2: some of the people who were doing things during this
Speaker 2: time period before, like Murray Bukchin, who later inspired the
Speaker 2: millions strong Democratic and federalist movement. It's happening right now
Speaker 2: in Kurdistan what people usually call Roshava, and he hung
Speaker 2: out in New York City running book clubs in like
Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties with exiled Spanish anarchists. But mostly, and
Speaker 2: this is the part that I'm getting to with the
Speaker 2: punk part, what kept anarchism alive during this dead period
Speaker 2: was cultural anarchists rather than political anarchists totally. So you
Speaker 2: get musicians, authors, religious anarchists, including a strong Christian pacifist
Speaker 2: movement and also a more labor focused Jewish anarchist movement.
Speaker 1: And visual artists.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know as much about them yet, and
Speaker 2: I like, I want to know more about them, and
Speaker 2: you have groups like Bread and Puppet working towards new
Speaker 2: ideas and community theater. A lot of the beats were anarchists.
Speaker 2: A lot of them were misogynists. A lot of them
Speaker 2: misogynists were anarchists. This turns out people are terrible no
Speaker 2: matter what ideology they ascribed to. A lot of the
Speaker 2: modernist literature authors were anarchists. Speaking of like Henry Miller
Speaker 2: was an anarchist, and I don't know whatever. I can't
Speaker 2: get through his books, but I'm under the impression he's
Speaker 2: a misogynist. A couple decades later you have a Narco punk,
Speaker 2: which was largely pacifistic and what could be disparagingly called lifestylist.
Speaker 2: But in music, do you know why am I making
Speaker 2: this trivia? Do you know what famous twentieth century mid
Speaker 2: twentieth century composer was an anarchist? Now who Well? In
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty two in Woodstock, New York, there was a
Speaker 2: festival meant to highlight all of the greatest composers and
Speaker 2: pianists of the twentieth century, and a gay anarchist, one
Speaker 2: of the most celebrated composers of the twentieth century stepped
Speaker 2: onto stage. He sat in front of a piano and
Speaker 2: he premiered his most famous piece. It is called four
Speaker 2: thirty three.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, dude.
Speaker 2: For four minutes and thirty three seconds, that's how long
Speaker 2: the piece takes. It is a very simple piece. It
Speaker 2: is the only piece of his that I feel confident
Speaker 2: that I could play.
Speaker 1: It's really hard to play.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he uh. He didn't touch the piano for four
Speaker 2: minutes and thirty three seconds. That's the piece, and it
Speaker 2: is the kind of piece that drives right wing culture
Speaker 2: people into like a violent rage.
Speaker 1: That's that's the art. Yeah, yeah, the art is all
Speaker 1: of that noise.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 2: I like, I actually think four thirty three is really
Speaker 2: funny and kind of interesting. But like overall, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I like melody. I don't really go to noise shows.
Speaker 2: A lot of my friends like noise shows. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: lose my trans girl card if I talk too much
Speaker 2: trash on noise.
Speaker 1: But I love experimental music.
Speaker 3: I love like really abstract stuff. I just get I
Speaker 3: get tired of the eight notes. I'm fully fully done
Speaker 3: with the eight notes, and I get tired of the
Speaker 3: twelve notes. I just want to hear some I want
Speaker 3: to hear some sound a lot of the time.
Speaker 2: That's fair. I think a lot of the better musicians
Speaker 2: that is where they end up. They end up real
Speaker 2: bored of the the real basic stuff I love.
Speaker 3: I mean I also love like, you know, kids jumping
Speaker 3: rope and talking shit and like really simple musical stuff too.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and oh man, you're just you're gonna love crass.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think they got both of those.
Speaker 3: I'm sad because I fully I was in a scene
Speaker 3: where people loved crass. Yeah, but I we never listened
Speaker 3: to them together. And like, I've just been such a
Speaker 3: like rounder. My entire life just plays to place to place,
Speaker 3: so like my favorite way to listen to music is
Speaker 3: with people. And like, I don't know, they had just
Speaker 3: they were just not in that phase when I was around,
Speaker 3: so I didn't. I'm missing I'm missing out on my
Speaker 3: my crass, the crass part of my life.
Speaker 2: I uh. I wish. We're not really able for various
Speaker 2: legal reasons to play music on this show, so everyone
Speaker 2: has to go and listen to some crass at some
Speaker 2: point during this I would recommend to you, dear listener,
Speaker 2: if you've never heard crass, to listen to a song
Speaker 2: called Big A Little A. That's maybe my favorite crass song.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but to John Cage, he went and
Speaker 2: sat in front of a piano and this just pissed
Speaker 2: everyone off. And like you said, that is the art
Speaker 2: of this kind of thing, is the like the reaction
Speaker 2: it is provoking out of people. And it's it's kind
Speaker 2: of funny because like the right wing spends all their
Speaker 2: time complaining about snowflakes, but like they are absolutely incapable
Speaker 2: of this just triggers the hell out of chuds if
Speaker 2: you do abstract art. Yeah, Later he wrote about that
Speaker 2: moment quote, they missed the point. There is no such
Speaker 2: thing as silence. What they thought was silence because they
Speaker 2: didn't know how to listen, was full of accidental sounds.
Speaker 2: You could hear the wind stirring outside during the first movement,
Speaker 2: during the second, raindrops began pattering on the roof, and
Speaker 2: during the third, the people themselves made all kinds of
Speaker 2: interesting sounds as they talked or walked out.
Speaker 3: I really love that, and I love Cage's visual art
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 2: I've read some of his poetry and I've listened to
Speaker 2: some of his music, but I actually haven't seen his
Speaker 2: visual art.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I used to go to the One of the
Speaker 3: coolest things in my hometown of Houston, Texas is the
Speaker 3: Rothko Chapel.
Speaker 1: Have you ever been there?
Speaker 2: No, it is.
Speaker 3: I forget how many paintings there are, but it's like
Speaker 3: octagonal or yeah, I think it's an octagonal space and
Speaker 3: there's these giant black and you know black variant Rothkos
Speaker 3: on all the walls and natural lighting and they just
Speaker 3: kind of they just recently fixed the lighting in there
Speaker 3: to go along more.
Speaker 1: With his vision.
Speaker 3: So I'm excited to go back and see that. But
Speaker 3: there was a Cage exhibit there at one point I
Speaker 3: think I was I was a teenager. I was a
Speaker 3: homeless teenager, and I went to that show in Houston,
Speaker 3: and I remember this other experience that is similar to
Speaker 3: how Cage is describing the intent of four point thirty.
Speaker 1: Three, where.
Speaker 3: I used to be a visual artist, but I was
Speaker 3: a homeless teenager, so like I couldn't go to school,
Speaker 3: like I just I sort of tried, but I was
Speaker 3: like I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't figure this out. And then music took over.
Speaker 3: So now all I do is design my merch design
Speaker 3: my records, and sometimes I like, you know, actually physically
Speaker 3: do the art instead of just working with people who,
Speaker 3: you know, know how to use the digital layout and
Speaker 3: stuff like this. I am, i am not a computer person,
Speaker 3: but I'm I'm lucky that I'm surrounded by the most
Speaker 3: beautiful nerds on the planet, so like it's normally not
Speaker 3: like an issue in any kind of a way. I
Speaker 3: just I'm like, people catch me, I cook for them.
Speaker 3: It all works out. Yeah, But I loved this experience
Speaker 3: of going to see the cage in the in the
Speaker 3: cage stuff the place where I saw that, there's also
Speaker 3: a Sy Twombly exhibit.
Speaker 1: Do you know Sytombly's work.
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 1: It's like.
Speaker 3: It literally feels like what a tree would draw. Okay,
Speaker 3: it's like little sketchy sketches, Like it's this very it's
Speaker 3: just very like it feels non human in this really
Speaker 3: beautiful way. And I, as a visual artist, like I
Speaker 3: dissociated so hard on Side Twombly and just like really
Speaker 3: fully immersed myself in his gestural work. And then I
Speaker 3: remember walking outside and just feeling how everything was like that.
Speaker 3: It's like I could feel the trees drawing after I
Speaker 3: got into Side Twombly, So like, yeah, anybody who runs
Speaker 3: away from that experience is just running away from themselves.
Speaker 3: That's so that's an interesting, uh full on, you know,
Speaker 3: point of the art.
Speaker 2: Well, once he finished plane that song afterwards, someone shouted,
Speaker 2: good people of Woodstock, let's drive these people out of town.
Speaker 2: Really yeah, supposedly. I mean it's like quoted when people
Speaker 2: talk about.
Speaker 1: It, that's so funny, like pitchforks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Most of his compositions were you know,
Speaker 2: full of musical notes and such, but he was obsessed
Speaker 2: with silence, and he was also fighting specifically against I
Speaker 2: didn't realize how far back musaic goes. The concept of
Speaker 2: music goes back. I want to say, the twenties, thirties,
Speaker 2: and now it's a trademark term has been for like
Speaker 2: seventy years. Just background music, just the constant, irritating background
Speaker 2: noise of modern civilization. He absolutely despised it, and I
Speaker 2: really appreciate that because I'm actually someone who I don't
Speaker 2: fuck with background music unless I have like a really
Speaker 2: specific purpose, Like if I am writing in a crowded place,
Speaker 2: I will put on stone or metal or something like
Speaker 2: to like obliterate my brain and get things done. But
Speaker 2: like and I'll listen to music when I drive, when like,
Speaker 2: when my brain can engage with it a little bit.
Speaker 2: But I do not fuck with like just music just
Speaker 2: constantly everywhere happening, because if you can't pay attention to it,
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is anyway. So I like his hatred
Speaker 2: of music. Yeah, And he was a particles have been
Speaker 2: in the avant garde movement. He was looking to explore
Speaker 2: the boundaries of what we understand his art. He didn't
Speaker 2: talk much about his sexuality. He was gay. He lived
Speaker 2: with his partner for almost fifty years. He didn't try
Speaker 2: to hide it. He was also quite upfront about his politics,
Speaker 2: and this is more hidden for him. He was an anarchist.
Speaker 2: And he was an anarchist of a sort. I've read
Speaker 2: about a ton of times when I read about art
Speaker 2: figures who are engaged with anarchism. When someone is more
Speaker 2: famous for something other than their political actions or their writings,
Speaker 2: their anarchism is diminished to like a footnote in their biographies,
Speaker 2: a sort of odd curiosity, because anarchism has so been
Speaker 2: so thoroughly buried that most people writing about musicians and
Speaker 2: artists literally don't know what the word means. Again, not
Speaker 2: a huge Henry Miller fan, but at one point an
Speaker 2: interviewer who wrote an entire book length interview with the
Speaker 2: modernist author Henry Miller for People and from Here was like,
Speaker 2: you call yourself an anarchist, but you're so organized. And
Speaker 2: Henry Miller's like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't know what that word means.
Speaker 2: No, they don't. They don't know what the word means.
Speaker 2: That is the political label of the person they are
Speaker 2: literally writing a book on. Yeah, and they're like, well,
Speaker 2: why do you call yourself an anarchist? And he's like,
Speaker 2: because I don't know. I like read Bakunin and shit,
Speaker 2: you know. And so people sometimes think that John Cage
Speaker 2: was an anarchist and that he pushed the boundaries of music.
Speaker 2: He was, you know, anti the authority of the rules
Speaker 2: of music, and he was that right, but he was
Speaker 2: aware of it as a political force. In his mid seventies,
Speaker 2: he wrote a poetry book called Anarchy, which opens on
Speaker 2: an with an essay on anarchism. And the reason I'm
Speaker 2: talking about this one. I just like talking about anarchism
Speaker 2: whenever I can. But I think to understand anarcho punk
Speaker 2: and the way in which politics and specifically anti authoritarian
Speaker 2: and anarchist politics infuse culture and music. I feel like
Speaker 2: this is like really useful, and I think a lot
Speaker 2: of it goes back to him, and I can draw
Speaker 2: a direct line from him to an arcopunk and that
Speaker 2: makes me really happy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a very important figure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. On the first page of that, in that essay,
Speaker 2: he writes, we don't need government. We need utilities, air, water, energy,
Speaker 2: travel and communication means food and shelter. We have no
Speaker 2: need for imaginary mountain ranges between separate nations, nor do
Speaker 2: we have any need for the continuing division of people
Speaker 2: into those who have what they need and those who don't.
Speaker 2: Then he like the second page of it is like
Speaker 2: basically a page length quote of recurring hero on this
Speaker 2: pod Malatesta. John Cage just seemed like an incredible man.
Speaker 2: He was like into macrobiotic cooking when he ascivated it.
Speaker 2: Had any regrets, he said he would have been a
Speaker 2: botanist instead of a musician. He wrote a book about
Speaker 2: mushroom foraging and he organized a society for amateur micologists.
Speaker 3: I swear to God, anarchist culture is so beautiful, Like
Speaker 3: you just get these people who.
Speaker 1: Have such a strong sense of their center. They and they.
Speaker 3: Realize what real authority is and that you know, it's
Speaker 3: not it's not flimsy.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And as he got to the end of
Speaker 2: his life, he practiced four thirty three every day in
Speaker 2: front of his piano, which is a kind of cool
Speaker 2: meditative practice.
Speaker 3: You know, I like that meditating for that long. That's
Speaker 3: not as long as I want to meditate the same.
Speaker 2: Yeah. He died in nineteen ninety two of a stroke
Speaker 2: at the age of seventy nine, and I've always wondered
Speaker 2: whether he was going to get his own episodes, and
Speaker 2: maybe he will one day, But I basically was like, hooray,
Speaker 2: I got to talk about four thirty three guy. And
Speaker 2: it's hard to overstate his influence on avant garde music.
Speaker 2: Think of him as the first famous noise musician in
Speaker 2: the modern sense. And he's going to influence some hippies
Speaker 2: in the UK who are going to reinvent punk rock,
Speaker 2: spearheaders genre called a narco punk, and dictate so much
Speaker 2: of the radical political aesthetics of the Western world for
Speaker 2: decades to come. But before someone can reinvent punk rock,
Speaker 2: they have to cut to ads. It just happens. Actually,
Speaker 2: Krass would fucking hate that I am doing this, But
Speaker 2: that's what's happening right now. Because actually I have critiques
Speaker 2: around class and crass, but we'll get to that later
Speaker 2: because I understand the needs of working artists in a way. Whatever. Anyway,
Speaker 2: here's ads. I have to put them here. Here they
Speaker 2: are so before someone can reinvent punk rock, someone has
Speaker 2: to invent punk rock. As to who did that, I
Speaker 2: don't fucking know. People like to argue about it. There's
Speaker 2: an awful lot of proto punk bands. Iggy Pop and
Speaker 2: the band the Stooges from Detroit did some punk rock
Speaker 2: shit starting nineteen sixty seven. MC five started also in
Speaker 2: Detroit nineteen sixty three. There was another Detroit band, an
Speaker 2: all black band called Death that was formed in nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy one. Have you seen that documentary about them? I
Speaker 2: think it's called a band called Death. It's so good.
Speaker 1: I really I really want to see that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the Velvet Underground is seen as proto punk
Speaker 2: out of New York City. Have you heard of this
Speaker 2: band called the Dictators? No, I don't like them. They
Speaker 2: formed in nineteen seventy three in New York. The New
Speaker 2: York Dolls were from New York nineteen seventy two. Punk
Speaker 2: rock absolutely came out of rock, specifically came out of
Speaker 2: garage rock, a sixty genre that was centered around Detroit
Speaker 2: and New York City. A lot of these bands were
Speaker 2: leftist or anarchists, most notably MC five, a working class
Speaker 2: band with ties to veteran of the Pod Up against
Speaker 2: the Wall Motherfuckers, who were a New York City anarchist
Speaker 2: street gang. But most histories of punk seem to agree
Speaker 2: that punk, what we call punk today, was actually built
Speaker 2: out of maintainstream acts, the ramones, the sex pistols in
Speaker 2: the Clash. By nineteen seventy six, you've got a bunch
Speaker 2: of the classic first punk bands, also like the Slits
Speaker 2: and the Damned. As for the word punk, it actually
Speaker 2: has a different etymology than I thought coming into.
Speaker 1: This weird Okay, I'd always.
Speaker 2: Heard the like homosexual and like sex worker. Yeah, etymology,
Speaker 2: that's what I thought. So it's two different etymologies that
Speaker 2: got mashed together. The word punk is a reclamation of
Speaker 2: a slur. I think most people know that Shakespeare used
Speaker 2: the word a lot for female sex workers. There's a
Speaker 2: song even older than Shakespeare called Simon the Old King
Speaker 2: that says being drunk is quote a sin, as it
Speaker 2: is to keep a punk.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I didn't realize that punk referred to a female sex worker.
Speaker 1: I had never heard that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the oldest English version of it, to quote
Speaker 2: an article called the Rotten Etymology of Punk by JP Robinson. Quote. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: on the other side of the Atlantic, a new meaning
Speaker 2: for punk grew, a meaning that had never been used
Speaker 2: in Britain. Punk as rotting wood used for tinder and
Speaker 2: eventually other things that smolder like fuses an incense. And
Speaker 2: this was derived from the indigenous Lenape language.
Speaker 1: What this is amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is a stronger etymology. It became a
Speaker 2: word for things that are kind of shitty, like bad
Speaker 2: performances were punk shows.
Speaker 1: That's so beautiful.
Speaker 3: I love that there's indigenous idnology to that.
Speaker 1: That's so great.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that the modern use of punk
Speaker 2: derogatorily like don't be a punk or punk ass motherfucker
Speaker 2: or whatever is actually pretty true to this old slang.
Speaker 2: This like just something that's shitty, you know.
Speaker 1: I love that. And then also it's like I think like.
Speaker 3: New York City is like Lenape territory, So I think
Speaker 3: that's that's adorable.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: Like, so it comes out of New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Tons of music was being called punk in the nineteenth century.
Speaker 2: In eighteen ninety nine, a West Coast guy named Otto
Speaker 2: Wise wrote a skating review of some music he heard
Speaker 2: in a music hall, calling it the most punk song
Speaker 2: ever heard in a hall. And then it started being
Speaker 2: used in the nineteen tens to mean sort of popular music,
Speaker 2: non highbrow music. Wow, anything that is popular for being
Speaker 2: kind of shitty and like lowbrow was punk. So then
Speaker 2: people started using it positively as far back as like
Speaker 2: nineteen tens, like yeah, so fucking what, we're not perfect
Speaker 2: at this, we like it that way. There was like
Speaker 2: all of these articles where people would say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: so her voice is a little punk, but we like
Speaker 2: it imperfect.
Speaker 1: That is fucking great. I uh yeah. I just went
Speaker 1: on this like personal deep dive with.
Speaker 3: Man and the Witch, like really really trying to like
Speaker 3: fully understand what she's talking about, and it just gave
Speaker 3: me such a beautiful sense of working class pride. It's
Speaker 3: like it's like even way way way wa way way
Speaker 3: back before there was you know, this idea of unions,
Speaker 3: like working class people were just like doing all this
Speaker 3: amazing organizing, and like so much of what we think
Speaker 3: of as being union based was just like working class
Speaker 3: people drawing boundaries for themselves and trying to have a
Speaker 3: good life. So I love like when something that you
Speaker 3: didn't think was as old shows up way back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, but kind of like we've been doing this forever.
Speaker 2: And also just even that the like like punk almost
Speaker 2: feels like almost a modern slang, not just the word
Speaker 2: like punk, like punk rock, but like, yeah, don't be
Speaker 2: a punk that feels very modern. It is five hundred
Speaker 2: plus years old.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought, like, you know, maybe fifties forties. No,
Speaker 1: this is that's so cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like it's older than modern English the language. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it also became slang for delinquents, especially young gay men.
Speaker 2: By the nineteen forties. It was slank in gay culture,
Speaker 2: for the bottom in a gay relationship.
Speaker 1: That's what I thought. That's what I.
Speaker 2: Thought totally, and that one might have also come in
Speaker 2: from the British use of it, right, but like delinquents
Speaker 2: who are kind of queer, very lowbrow. Of course this
Speaker 2: gets applied to rock and roll. In nineteen sixty seven,
Speaker 2: a journalist said quote, We've got kids out there in
Speaker 2: Vietnam dying without a sound, and we've got punks here
Speaker 2: who dress up like girls and make millions of dollars
Speaker 2: doing it. The Rolling Stones were called punks, the Beatles
Speaker 2: were called punks. Bob Dylan was called a punk, and
Speaker 2: hippies were called punks. And it's funny because punk is
Speaker 2: usually presented as an opposition to hippies. But it's actually
Speaker 2: its natural growth. Really, it's dialectic. But I hate that.
Speaker 2: I now know what dialectic means. I refused it to
Speaker 2: just pretend I didn't say that. It's the thing that
Speaker 2: responds to the thing.
Speaker 1: Nah, I don't like I don't like it because it's
Speaker 1: too political ease, you know.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and it means different things to every single
Speaker 2: person who says it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I I don't know.
Speaker 1: I like the idea of saying like it's part of
Speaker 1: a conversation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3: I really try to bring things back to vernacular and
Speaker 3: as much as you can.
Speaker 2: Oh no, totally.
Speaker 3: And I had such a hard time with Caliban and
Speaker 3: the Witch, and I was longing for Prop to do
Speaker 3: a translation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And there are some critiques to be laid
Speaker 2: at the feet of that book in terms of its
Speaker 2: accuracy around the Witch Trials. But oh yeah, that's a okay.
Speaker 2: So when early punk bands were called punk, it wasn't
Speaker 2: like these bands suck or this is a new genre,
Speaker 2: but it was more we're keeping with this history of
Speaker 2: being like, this is low brow, delinquent, kind of queer music.
Speaker 2: And this got cemented when that band MC five, when
Speaker 2: a reviewer called them punks in nineteen seventy two. This
Speaker 2: is sort of when it kind of sticks. But it
Speaker 2: didn't even have a specific sound, not until those specific
Speaker 2: bands like the Sex Pistols, and then it suddenly did.
Speaker 3: I got to be on stage with Wayne Kramer one time.
Speaker 3: It was so so beautiful.
Speaker 2: Is that a sex Pistols?
Speaker 3: Guy?
Speaker 2: I can't remember names?
Speaker 1: He's from MC five.
Speaker 2: Oh shit, Oh okay, that's way cooler. Fuck. Yeah. I
Speaker 2: struggle all the time with music trivia because I just
Speaker 2: literally can't remember names, which is why I actually kind
Speaker 2: of like punk, because like the singer of Crass being
Speaker 2: Steve Ignorant, I'm like, I can remember Steve Ignorant.
Speaker 1: You know, right, Yeah, And it's more about band names.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or art names like that totally yeah. But what
Speaker 2: I can remember, Jolie is I can remember that I
Speaker 2: need to do two ad break during each episode. I
Speaker 2: remember that very well. And I bet you, dear listener,
Speaker 2: remember the horrible jingles of our wonderful advertisers, whom I
Speaker 2: all love very dearly. Here they are my favorite things
Speaker 2: in the world, and we're back. So in nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 2: an anarchist magazine called Fifth Estate, which is still around,
Speaker 2: actually wrote about this new punk phenomena and they talked
Speaker 2: about its political content in an article called punk Rock,
Speaker 2: Musical fad or Radical Kernel, which is a pretty like
Speaker 2: that's a correct question to ask around punk absolutely and
Speaker 2: basically they're like, is this punk rock thing? Is it anarchist?
Speaker 2: Is it right wing? Is it mainstream pop? And much
Speaker 2: like the Wall that says eat the rich and then
Speaker 2: some racist stuff and then Bob was here, the answer
Speaker 2: is yes, it is anarchist, it is right wing, it
Speaker 2: is mainstream pop. It is everything punks good and bad
Speaker 2: in that And actually, to be clear, when I say
Speaker 2: good and bad, some of the bobless here is actually
Speaker 2: some of the best punk I really like. I really
Speaker 2: like cocksparuh. But maybe I'll find out that they're terrible people.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I really like some of the
Speaker 2: OI from early times, the non racist stuff anyway. So
Speaker 2: in that article they admit that they are old hippies
Speaker 2: looking at this thing from the outside, so they're not
Speaker 2: being like, we are the punks, right, but they've clearly
Speaker 2: got a lot of knowledge. They talk about how there's
Speaker 2: They identify three different strains of punk in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 2: The most popular was the one in the UK built
Speaker 2: around the sex Pistols, which was mainstream. Then there was
Speaker 2: the New York scene around CBGB's as Fifth State puts it,
Speaker 2: and I think this is a slightly reductive way putting it,
Speaker 2: but Fifth State puts it. Groups like the Dictators merge
Speaker 2: right wing lyrics manifest destiny disco with not so subtle
Speaker 2: appeals to the fatish sato masochism now so popular in
Speaker 2: the Big Apple. Not much there. That's their review of
Speaker 2: the New York scene. I had never heard of the Dictators, which,
Speaker 2: if you're a music person you're listening to me, you're like,
Speaker 2: what I thought she was punk? I don't care. They
Speaker 2: are legitimately one of the founders of punk. There are
Speaker 2: one of the proto punk bands, and I swear I'm
Speaker 2: not expressing this just because of my bias. It is
Speaker 2: so bland. This is the blandest proto punk I have
Speaker 2: ever heard. They recently reunited and put out a song
Speaker 2: called Goddamn New York and it's a bunch of seventy
Speaker 2: year olds with like a really low energy, fuck the
Speaker 2: rich song that still manages to complain about Chinese billionaires
Speaker 2: and a far right guy from the metal band Man
Speaker 2: of War is in that band.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very boring.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then there was a third strain in nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy seven, a West Coast punk that was more independent
Speaker 2: and hated the record industry. And they're interesting because that's
Speaker 2: like kind of what grows up in the UK, and
Speaker 2: everyone attributes it to the UK. But West Coast punk
Speaker 2: built a network of zines, some of which were just
Speaker 2: about music, but some covered politics. A magazine called New
Speaker 2: Diseases with diseases spelled wrong because they're punks was already
Speaker 2: calling out Nazi punks with an article that read, Fascism
Speaker 2: is on the rise. The time to renounce it forever.
Speaker 2: Fascism is the negation and the end of the individual,
Speaker 2: the end of creativity. Punk and anarchism is the shout
Speaker 2: of the individual. It's creativity brought into our lives. It's
Speaker 2: the end of the oppressor and not the myth of
Speaker 2: the fascist dictator. It's not coy posing its revolution, which
Speaker 2: is a very punk uh not very However, from Fifth
Speaker 2: Estate's analysis, UK punk grew out of working class resentment,
Speaker 2: while West Coast US punk grew out of a rejection
Speaker 2: of middle class values. But I found another source that
Speaker 2: argued something different that I found kind of interesting. Maybe
Speaker 2: I find this interesting because whatever, if you're listening to
Speaker 2: this podcast, you probably like weird history shit. So in
Speaker 2: the early nineties there was a federation of anarchists across
Speaker 2: the US called the Love and Rage Federation, and in
Speaker 2: their newsletter an author named Christopher Day wrote this, It
Speaker 2: was a bit of a long quote, but it's about
Speaker 2: the political climate and the economic climate that punk came
Speaker 2: out of. Quote. After the Second World War, a deal
Speaker 2: was struck in the United States between major corporations and
Speaker 2: the organized labor movement that basically guaranteed a large privileged
Speaker 2: section of the working class steady improvements in its standard
Speaker 2: of living in exchange for social peace and support of
Speaker 2: the US military actions around the world in terms of consciousness,
Speaker 2: if not always in terms of the economic position in
Speaker 2: the overall process of exploitation. The effect of this deal
Speaker 2: was to deproltarianize a huge section of the US workforce.
Speaker 2: That deal was broken in the nineteen sixties. So basically,
Speaker 2: it's saying like, after World War Two, a whole ton
Speaker 2: of people, especially white working class people, became middle class.
Speaker 2: And this is why everyone like dreams of the fifties
Speaker 2: as like all the racists or like that was when
Speaker 2: everything was perfect. It's because that's when more white people
Speaker 2: got to be middle class. To continue the quote, that
Speaker 2: deal was broken in the nineteen sixties when anti colonial
Speaker 2: movements around the world and the Black liberation movement in
Speaker 2: the US inspired millions of relatively privileged white youth to
Speaker 2: openly oppose and defy the US war against Vietnam. At
Speaker 2: the same time, the enormous expenditures the US was making
Speaker 2: to wage the war were undermining US domination of the
Speaker 2: world economy. The other industrialized countries were becoming more competitive.
Speaker 2: Opek forced industrialized countries to pay more for oil, and
Speaker 2: certain Third world countries like Korea and Brazil began to industrialize.
Speaker 2: The global capitalist restructuring that has resulted has had several
Speaker 2: main features. The most significant is the massive relocation of
Speaker 2: the industrial production from the old imperialist countries to the
Speaker 2: Third world. So basically it's like when the rust belt
Speaker 2: starts rust belting to continue to quote. Hand in hand
Speaker 2: with this de industrialization has gone a steady erosion into
Speaker 2: standard of living of the US working class, both in
Speaker 2: the form of lost jobs and wage cuts, and in
Speaker 2: the form of cuts in social programs. While the worst
Speaker 2: effects of this erosion have been borne by people of color,
Speaker 2: it is important to note that the erosion has affected
Speaker 2: the entire working class. Amongst the white working class accustomed
Speaker 2: to middle class standard of living, the brunt of the
Speaker 2: changes have been borne by their children as they have
Speaker 2: entered the workforce. Young workers have always had to take
Speaker 2: cruddier jobs at lower pay. What is different this time
Speaker 2: is that those lower wages are not the first step
Speaker 2: in a progression of better paying jobs. Rather, they are
Speaker 2: a dead end. As probably the longest quote I've done
Speaker 2: on this show, but it's so fascinating to me, and
Speaker 2: I quoted at full in full, because this is what's
Speaker 2: happening now.
Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, it's just a it's just another it's another
Speaker 1: like level of degradation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like all of these people who got promised
Speaker 2: to be middle class are not middle class. And a
Speaker 2: lot of people who are promised upward mobility into the
Speaker 2: middle class are not. That is not available to them.
Speaker 2: And I remember reading something there's like a it was
Speaker 2: like a tweet or something. It's like, oh, the last
Speaker 2: time that this happened, we at least got some good
Speaker 2: music out of it, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think about that, but it's that's uh you
Speaker 4: and I feel how kind of evil that is that, like,
Speaker 4: you know, it's getting harder and harder to make a living,
Speaker 4: and especially for artists, and to say like, oh, make
Speaker 4: some grow, grow some beautiful flowers out of this shit.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And what's funny is it's like I hate to
Speaker 2: deny people the flowers that they might be able to grow.
Speaker 2: But one of the major differences is that even though
Speaker 2: they were seeing erosions in the social systems, they had
Speaker 2: more to begin with, exactly. And so like a lot
Speaker 2: of people, especially in the UK, a lot of early
Speaker 2: punk comes out of working class people or dropouts of
Speaker 2: middle class who are able to live off of welfare,
Speaker 2: you know, or like shitty, low paying jobs are enough
Speaker 2: because of access to social services, and so like, we
Speaker 2: don't we don't have that this time.
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not.
Speaker 3: And they also had that because of mass class solidarity
Speaker 3: coming out of the Second World War, like people people
Speaker 3: were like, well, we survived this horrible thing, so we're
Speaker 3: gonna at least have healthcare.
Speaker 2: Yeah totally. And now you know, because when you look
Speaker 2: at this like long quote, you're like, oh, well, they,
Speaker 2: you know, sent jobs overseas, and you're like, theoretically, what
Speaker 2: the right wing is claiming to do, and I don't
Speaker 2: think that they'll have particular success with this is to
Speaker 2: bring jobs back to the US by like through tariffs
Speaker 2: and stuff, right, prioritizing US made stuff. But they're pairing
Speaker 2: it with even further gutting of all social services. Like
Speaker 2: so it's not actually helping the American working class at all.
Speaker 2: I doubt I have to convince anyone who listens to
Speaker 2: that show of this, but like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're just making people more desperate.
Speaker 2: Yeah totally. And so instead it's like, oh, yeah, there
Speaker 2: will be some jobs here and they will be absolutely
Speaker 2: the worst. So in the seventies, workers were suddenly I'm
Speaker 2: not quoting anymore, workers were suddenly forced to compete with
Speaker 2: workers in other countries like Mexico and Malaysia. A lot
Speaker 2: of this early history of punk and anarchism that I'm
Speaker 2: pulling a lot of this from comes from a zine
Speaker 2: put together by an anonymous editor, and that zene is
Speaker 2: called Rebel Close, Rebel Songs, Rebel Pose, and it was
Speaker 2: like someone who like literally went to the microfish and
Speaker 2: read all the old stuff to put it together. And
Speaker 2: the editor of that zcene says, quote places like Mexico
Speaker 2: and Malaysia incidentally, places that have raging, fucking punk scenes
Speaker 2: that are centers of anarchist ideas and activity.
Speaker 3: I don't know about Malaysian anarchism.
Speaker 1: That's awesome, Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2: So I know a little bit about Malaysian punk, and
Speaker 2: it's mostly through the anonymous editor of the scene and
Speaker 2: some of the people around that scene. And I want
Speaker 2: to know more about It's like interesting because people like,
Speaker 2: we'll talk about it later when we get further and
Speaker 2: further into how anarcho punk kind of brought anarchism back
Speaker 2: way more than I realized. And it didn't just do
Speaker 2: it in the Western world. It like spread and developed
Speaker 2: its own traditions everywhere and anyway. It's cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because music doesn't have borders.
Speaker 2: Yeah, as John Cage put it doesn't have imaginary mountain ranges.
Speaker 2: I really like that way of imagining borders. And people
Speaker 2: were promised a future and they were told to work
Speaker 2: within the system to improve the system. You know, they're
Speaker 2: coming out of the sort of hippie era and people
Speaker 2: are like, oh, okay, well we have a few environmental
Speaker 2: protections now and don't worry, everything's going to be better
Speaker 2: and you know whatever. And people kept seeing that that
Speaker 2: wasn't happening, and so punk came with a promise, and
Speaker 2: its promise was there is no future. You know. Its
Speaker 2: promise was like, nah, that's all a lie. But dear listener,
Speaker 2: you'd better hope there's a future because you're not going
Speaker 2: to get to hear the rest of this four parter
Speaker 2: until the future. Thank you, Thank you. When we come
Speaker 2: back on Wednesday, we're going to talk about the rise
Speaker 2: of punk in the UK, and we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about how a bunch of not young hippies met a
Speaker 2: young punk and started a band that changed the world.
Speaker 2: But if people want to hear your band that it's
Speaker 2: like kind of like it's funny because like Kress didn't
Speaker 2: do this alone, and they very much know they didn't
Speaker 2: do it alone, and like, but they're the like the
Speaker 2: one that people talk about the most. And I'm doing
Speaker 2: it too, you know, But why am I saying that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody's part of a scene.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like we collectively create a culture that influences
Speaker 2: and changes things. But if you want to hear the
Speaker 2: one that you do, how can they do that?
Speaker 3: You can find my music in all the places, you know,
Speaker 3: it's everywhere. My band and my illegal name is Jolie Holland.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you got you like lucked out with a
Speaker 2: legal name that works for a band.
Speaker 1: It's the only thing my father gave me.
Speaker 2: I'm actually curious, like where you see yourself in the
Speaker 2: tradition of punk, cause, like I maybe just because I
Speaker 2: like first started hearing your music when I started hanging
Speaker 2: out and like squats and things like that, and so
Speaker 2: it was like around the same time I started hearing
Speaker 2: like things that would be classified as punk. And I
Speaker 2: would guess that most people don't classify your music as punk,
Speaker 2: but like the like broader world of that, I'm curious
Speaker 2: how you see yourself fitting into that.
Speaker 1: You know, I was.
Speaker 3: A homeless street kid and we played the weirdest music,
Speaker 3: you know. And then like I recorded my record Catalpa,
Speaker 3: which is just like all it was all just like
Speaker 3: home recordings for just like really really flaky shit.
Speaker 1: There's like three coughs on that record. And then it.
Speaker 3: Was taken it face value as like so called folk music,
Speaker 3: although you know, it's like I know a lot about
Speaker 3: traditional music, and there's kind of a grounding of traditional
Speaker 3: music in my work, but it's not it's not all
Speaker 3: of what I do. And then that record blew up
Speaker 3: and it was like in the top ten in the
Speaker 3: college charts on both coasts, like twenty years ago, and
Speaker 3: it blew my mind, like I because I had never
Speaker 3: played the East coast at that point because I'm from
Speaker 3: Houston and I was living on the West coast. And
Speaker 3: then I started playing shows with that band, and it
Speaker 3: was so hard to figure out even how to present
Speaker 3: it because it it was all.
Speaker 1: The flakiest shit, you know. Katalpa is so flaky.
Speaker 3: And then we recorded Escondido, which is a lot more together.
Speaker 3: That record it's whatever, it's a studio record, yeah, and
Speaker 3: I went out and I started playing shows. And this
Speaker 3: was in my late twenties, and I started playing shows
Speaker 3: with that you know material, and I was on a
Speaker 3: punk rock label. I was on Anti, which is a
Speaker 3: sidiary of Epitaph Records, and I had like a you know,
Speaker 3: NPR audience and it blew out my mind.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 3: I was like, there's people wearing khaki pants in this audience,
Speaker 3: and it totally freaked me out because like I, you know,
Speaker 3: I was just such an outsider and it was like,
Speaker 3: who are these people?
Speaker 1: You know, it was very it was very confusing.
Speaker 3: So it's been I'm really happy that you heard my
Speaker 3: music in that context because to a lot of people, yeah,
Speaker 3: I just think, like, you know, my music does come
Speaker 3: out of a microcultural context. So it's always been bizarre
Speaker 3: fitting in. It's never been fully natural.
Speaker 2: I mean, the mainstream craves authenticity, and not even always
Speaker 2: necessarily in a bad way. I think that people who
Speaker 2: live outside of subculture feel like they're missing something, and
Speaker 2: so when people who come from inside of subculture are like, hey,
Speaker 2: here's a thing and it's available to you, but it
Speaker 2: comes from subculture, I think people eat that up.
Speaker 1: You know, if you want to hear part of the
Speaker 1: scene that I was in.
Speaker 3: Listen to this absolutely atrocious noise music from band camp
Speaker 3: called Donut Band. Okay, I love it so much.
Speaker 2: And are you on this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, you won't recognize me. I'm just like playing
Speaker 1: some weird violin or something.
Speaker 2: Okay. Well, that's where we're going to leave it for today,
Speaker 2: and when we come back Wednesday, we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about UK punk and we're gonna talk about weird hippies,
Speaker 2: and we're going to talk about music that I think
Speaker 2: is cool and interesting. And oh, I've got to shout
Speaker 2: out my own things. I have a book coming out
Speaker 2: about punk rock Scooby Doo. See it's punk rock and
Speaker 2: well it's the third book in the Daniel Kaine series,
Speaker 2: which someone is called punk Rock Scooby Doo and I
Speaker 2: like that way of describing it. And it's a third book,
Speaker 2: but it also stands alone because it's a bit of
Speaker 2: a prequel. And I'm going to be kickstarting it in March,
Speaker 2: which might be very soon if you're listening to this
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five, and you can back it. And
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have audiobook versions of all three books in
Speaker 2: the Daniel Kine series. So if you really want to
Speaker 2: hear all of them, you can, and you should do that.
Speaker 2: I guess if you want, all right, I'll see everyone
Speaker 2: all on Wednesday. Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is
Speaker 2: a production of cool Zone Media and more
Speaker 3: Podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com,
Speaker 3: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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