1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Cool Media. 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 2: You were weekly reminder that I have a podcast. My 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 2: name is Margaret Kiljoy and it's a podcast called Cool 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 2: People Do Cool Stuff. You probably caught that when I 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,479 Speaker 2: said it the first time. But in addition to rambling, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 2: I also have a guest, and my guest is Jolie Holland. Hi, 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 2: how are you? 9 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: Hi? I'm the fine. How are you? I? 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 2: You know, before we hit record, we both were like, 11 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 2: how are you doing? And we were both like, well, 12 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: you know, I guess because the world isn't doing so great. 13 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 2: But it's okay because this is a history podcast, so 14 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 2: what does that matter? Jolie Holland For anyone who hasn't 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 2: heard of you, is a singer songwriter, musician? What's the 16 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: I don't know what? 17 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: Hey? 18 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, well I sing and I play songs and yeah, 19 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 3: I mean it's funny because I read them. 20 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: There's a nice The way they say it in Spanish 21 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: is really beautiful. Okay, sounds better in Spanish. 22 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: Yeah than singer slash songwriter. 23 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, because that's like a singer songwriter implies a genre 24 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 3: and I think that's silly. 25 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough. Well, anyone who hasn't heard should listen 26 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,199 Speaker 2: to Julie Holland, one of my friends who was staying 27 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: with me recently, was very excited that you were going 28 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: to be on the podcast, and we were arguing about 29 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 2: which songs are our favorite, and I picked Old Fashioned 30 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: Morphine and she picked I Want to Die. So there's 31 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: two options for anyone listening who's never heard your stuff, 32 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: but these were both a bit older. What's your more 33 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 2: recent stuff? 34 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: My last record is called Haunted Mountain. 35 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 2: It's also good. 36 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: Thank you. 37 00:01:54,520 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: I have a framed print of the song itself. Oh 38 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: you might have noticed, dear listener, that Sophie isn't here. Sophie, 39 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: where did you go? I know where Sophie went, but 40 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 2: did where did you go? It's been so many episodes 41 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 2: or producer lists. It's un produced, but we do have 42 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: an audio engineer who's named Rory. Hi Rory. You have 43 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: to say hi to Rory too, Hi. 44 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 3: Ri. 45 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: Our theme music was written forced by a woman who's 46 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 2: also a singer song writer. Okay, yeah, So I was like, well, 47 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: I have Jolie on, I have all these books about 48 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: an arcopunk, and I was like, I'm gonna do an 49 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 2: episode about an archo punk, and specifically, I am going 50 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: to do an episode about the band Crass. You heard 51 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: the band Crass? 52 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I had the same accountants as them for a minute. 53 00:02:55,480 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 2: Oh really, that's kind of wild. Before we get into it, 54 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 2: you probably know a fair amount of this story, and 55 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: maybe more of it than I do. But what do 56 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: you know about Crass and a narco punk coming into it? 57 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: I don't know much. 58 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting that that my you know, closest direct 59 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 3: connection with them is that I had the same business 60 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 3: managers as them for a minute. Like I have some 61 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 3: old records in storage that have Crass written on them 62 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 3: because they reused the boxes. 63 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: I'm excited about this. 64 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: Hell yeah, So we're gonna talk about punk, rock and anarchy, 65 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: and we're going to talk about a bunch of hippies 66 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: who started a punk band in the late seventies with 67 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: a token punk and uh completely reinvented the genre of 68 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: punk and changed the esthetic landscape of the world and 69 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: had more direct influence on modern anarchist politics than you 70 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: would expect. And uh, yeah, we're gonna talk about punk. 71 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: That's amazing. 72 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: Art is so much power, I know, I know, for 73 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: better and worse, which is fun. It's fun to play with. 74 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: So what's funny about punk is that it's a bit 75 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: of a blank canvas upon which many people have written, 76 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: kind of like a blank brick wall in a crumbling 77 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 2: city when you see a wall covered in graffiti. Some 78 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 2: of it's really cool and it says things like eat 79 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 2: the rich, and some of it is racist, and some 80 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: of it is people writing Bob was here. And I 81 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: think that's a good summation of punk. A those are 82 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: the three types of punk I think. And I'll put 83 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 2: up with Bob was here, and I quite like to 84 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: eat the rich. I can't fuck with the racist graffiti. 85 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: I can't in good conscience tell you that punk was 86 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: always anarchist, or that we have any real claim to 87 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 2: starting the whole thing. No one ideology or band can 88 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 2: really claim to have started the whole thing. Well, lots 89 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: of them do. Lots of them do, and they all 90 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: have kind of many of them have like a legitimate claim, 91 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: which means none of them can truly claim it. But 92 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: anarchists have been there from the beginning, and we've done 93 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: incredible things with it. And I'm going to start this 94 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: history of punk in the same place that I try 95 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 2: to start all of my stories when I can get 96 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: away with it. The Spanish Civil War, eh wow. Although 97 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: actually later we can talk with the etymology of punk 98 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: and there's literally punk music in the nineteenth century, but 99 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 2: we'll get to that. 100 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 3: I'm taking a non alcoholic drink in honor of that. 101 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 2: So I'm starting with the Spanish Civil War because I'm 102 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: going to start with a death knell of classical anarchism. 103 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 2: As people listen to the show, a lot people might 104 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: know that there was big, huge labor movement that had 105 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 2: all different types of socialists, and one of those types 106 00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: of socialists was libertarian socialists or anarchists. And after being 107 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: a major political force for nearly one hundred years, anarchists 108 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 2: were killed in such numbers at the opening of the 109 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: twentieth century, specifically, especially by the time we get up 110 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: into World War II, that their ideas went underground for 111 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 2: a long time. The Spanish Republic fell, fascist forces took 112 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: over Spain, anarchists went underground, and they did some good work. 113 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 2: They drove the tanks that liberated Paris from the Nazis. 114 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 2: But you've got this sort of dead period of anarchism. 115 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 2: You can claim the dead period started and ended at 116 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: different points. You can say from the fall of the 117 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 2: Spanish Republic in nineteen thirty nine until the rise of 118 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: the anti globalization movement at the end of the nineteen nineties, 119 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: or you could be like from the end of World 120 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: War II to the start of anti authoritarian stuff in 121 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 2: the pippy movements of the sixties and seventies. Whatever specific 122 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 2: numbers here don't really matter. But for decades, the part 123 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: that matters, the part that I'm excited about, there's this 124 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 2: period where they're it's just like, not these large social 125 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 2: movements that have large anarchist groups within it. For a while, 126 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: only two political forces were triumphant across the world, Western 127 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: capitalism and Soviet and Chinese communism. Right, those are the 128 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: two big middle of the twentieth century things going on. 129 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: But anarchism didn't go away. An anarchists didn't, well, a 130 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: lot of them did, a lot of them died. Whenever 131 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: people are like this is a tangent, Whenever people are like, oh, 132 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: you can't kill an idea, then I like look at 133 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: history and I'm like, well, you can get really close. 134 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: Yeah you can. 135 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 3: You can vary it layers of bullshit so that nobody 136 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 3: knows what it is anymore or like layer gossip on 137 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 3: top of it, you know, or kind of deflections. 138 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can. You can kill most of the practitioners, 139 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: and then the people who are left you can just yeah, 140 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 2: you can slander them. You can not bother to mention 141 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: that they have ideas beyond you know, this or that 142 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 2: music or whatever. You know. And you know, we've covered 143 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: some of the people who were doing things during this 144 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 2: time period before, like Murray Bukchin, who later inspired the 145 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: millions strong Democratic and federalist movement. It's happening right now 146 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 2: in Kurdistan what people usually call Roshava, and he hung 147 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: out in New York City running book clubs in like 148 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties with exiled Spanish anarchists. But mostly, and 149 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 2: this is the part that I'm getting to with the 150 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,239 Speaker 2: punk part, what kept anarchism alive during this dead period 151 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: was cultural anarchists rather than political anarchists totally. So you 152 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 2: get musicians, authors, religious anarchists, including a strong Christian pacifist 153 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: movement and also a more labor focused Jewish anarchist movement. 154 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: And visual artists. 155 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know as much about them yet, and 156 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 2: I like, I want to know more about them, and 157 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 2: you have groups like Bread and Puppet working towards new 158 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: ideas and community theater. A lot of the beats were anarchists. 159 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 2: A lot of them were misogynists. A lot of them 160 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: misogynists were anarchists. This turns out people are terrible no 161 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: matter what ideology they ascribed to. A lot of the 162 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: modernist literature authors were anarchists. Speaking of like Henry Miller 163 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: was an anarchist, and I don't know whatever. I can't 164 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: get through his books, but I'm under the impression he's 165 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: a misogynist. A couple decades later you have a Narco punk, 166 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: which was largely pacifistic and what could be disparagingly called lifestylist. 167 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 2: But in music, do you know why am I making 168 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 2: this trivia? Do you know what famous twentieth century mid 169 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 2: twentieth century composer was an anarchist? Now who Well? In 170 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty two in Woodstock, New York, there was a 171 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 2: festival meant to highlight all of the greatest composers and 172 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 2: pianists of the twentieth century, and a gay anarchist, one 173 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 2: of the most celebrated composers of the twentieth century stepped 174 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 2: onto stage. He sat in front of a piano and 175 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 2: he premiered his most famous piece. It is called four 176 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: thirty three. 177 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, dude. 178 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 2: For four minutes and thirty three seconds, that's how long 179 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: the piece takes. It is a very simple piece. It 180 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 2: is the only piece of his that I feel confident 181 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 2: that I could play. 182 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: It's really hard to play. 183 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, he uh. He didn't touch the piano for four 184 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: minutes and thirty three seconds. That's the piece, and it 185 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 2: is the kind of piece that drives right wing culture 186 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: people into like a violent rage. 187 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: That's that's the art. Yeah, yeah, the art is all 188 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 1: of that noise. 189 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 3: I know. 190 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 2: I like, I actually think four thirty three is really 191 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: funny and kind of interesting. But like overall, I'm like, 192 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: I like melody. I don't really go to noise shows. 193 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 2: A lot of my friends like noise shows. I'm gonna 194 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 2: lose my trans girl card if I talk too much 195 00:10:59,360 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: trash on noise. 196 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: But I love experimental music. 197 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 3: I love like really abstract stuff. I just get I 198 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: get tired of the eight notes. I'm fully fully done 199 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 3: with the eight notes, and I get tired of the 200 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 3: twelve notes. I just want to hear some I want 201 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 3: to hear some sound a lot of the time. 202 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 2: That's fair. I think a lot of the better musicians 203 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: that is where they end up. They end up real 204 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 2: bored of the the real basic stuff I love. 205 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 3: I mean I also love like, you know, kids jumping 206 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: rope and talking shit and like really simple musical stuff too. 207 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and oh man, you're just you're gonna love crass. 208 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 2: I mean, I think they got both of those. 209 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 3: I'm sad because I fully I was in a scene 210 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 3: where people loved crass. Yeah, but I we never listened 211 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 3: to them together. And like, I've just been such a 212 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 3: like rounder. My entire life just plays to place to place, 213 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 3: so like my favorite way to listen to music is 214 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 3: with people. And like, I don't know, they had just 215 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 3: they were just not in that phase when I was around, 216 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 3: so I didn't. I'm missing I'm missing out on my 217 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 3: my crass, the crass part of my life. 218 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: I uh. I wish. We're not really able for various 219 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 2: legal reasons to play music on this show, so everyone 220 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 2: has to go and listen to some crass at some 221 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 2: point during this I would recommend to you, dear listener, 222 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 2: if you've never heard crass, to listen to a song 223 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 2: called Big A Little A. That's maybe my favorite crass song. 224 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: I don't know, but to John Cage, he went and 225 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 2: sat in front of a piano and this just pissed 226 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: everyone off. And like you said, that is the art 227 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: of this kind of thing, is the like the reaction 228 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 2: it is provoking out of people. And it's it's kind 229 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 2: of funny because like the right wing spends all their 230 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: time complaining about snowflakes, but like they are absolutely incapable 231 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 2: of this just triggers the hell out of chuds if 232 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: you do abstract art. Yeah, Later he wrote about that 233 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 2: moment quote, they missed the point. There is no such 234 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: thing as silence. What they thought was silence because they 235 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 2: didn't know how to listen, was full of accidental sounds. 236 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 2: You could hear the wind stirring outside during the first movement, 237 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 2: during the second, raindrops began pattering on the roof, and 238 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 2: during the third, the people themselves made all kinds of 239 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: interesting sounds as they talked or walked out. 240 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 3: I really love that, and I love Cage's visual art 241 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 3: as well. 242 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 2: I've read some of his poetry and I've listened to 243 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 2: some of his music, but I actually haven't seen his 244 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 2: visual art. 245 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I used to go to the One of the 246 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 3: coolest things in my hometown of Houston, Texas is the 247 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 3: Rothko Chapel. 248 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: Have you ever been there? 249 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: No, it is. 250 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 3: I forget how many paintings there are, but it's like 251 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 3: octagonal or yeah, I think it's an octagonal space and 252 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 3: there's these giant black and you know black variant Rothkos 253 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 3: on all the walls and natural lighting and they just 254 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 3: kind of they just recently fixed the lighting in there 255 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 3: to go along more. 256 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: With his vision. 257 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 3: So I'm excited to go back and see that. But 258 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 3: there was a Cage exhibit there at one point I 259 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 3: think I was I was a teenager. I was a 260 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 3: homeless teenager, and I went to that show in Houston, 261 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 3: and I remember this other experience that is similar to 262 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 3: how Cage is describing the intent of four point thirty. 263 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: Three, where. 264 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 3: I used to be a visual artist, but I was 265 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 3: a homeless teenager, so like I couldn't go to school, 266 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 3: like I just I sort of tried, but I was 267 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 3: like I can't. 268 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: I can't figure this out. And then music took over. 269 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 3: So now all I do is design my merch design 270 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 3: my records, and sometimes I like, you know, actually physically 271 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 3: do the art instead of just working with people who, 272 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 3: you know, know how to use the digital layout and 273 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 3: stuff like this. I am, i am not a computer person, 274 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 3: but I'm I'm lucky that I'm surrounded by the most 275 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 3: beautiful nerds on the planet, so like it's normally not 276 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 3: like an issue in any kind of a way. I 277 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 3: just I'm like, people catch me, I cook for them. 278 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 3: It all works out. Yeah, But I loved this experience 279 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 3: of going to see the cage in the in the 280 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 3: cage stuff the place where I saw that, there's also 281 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 3: a Sy Twombly exhibit. 282 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: Do you know Sytombly's work. 283 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: I don't. 284 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: It's like. 285 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 3: It literally feels like what a tree would draw. Okay, 286 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 3: it's like little sketchy sketches, Like it's this very it's 287 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 3: just very like it feels non human in this really 288 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 3: beautiful way. And I, as a visual artist, like I 289 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 3: dissociated so hard on Side Twombly and just like really 290 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 3: fully immersed myself in his gestural work. And then I 291 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 3: remember walking outside and just feeling how everything was like that. 292 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 3: It's like I could feel the trees drawing after I 293 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 3: got into Side Twombly, So like, yeah, anybody who runs 294 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 3: away from that experience is just running away from themselves. 295 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 3: That's so that's an interesting, uh full on, you know, 296 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: point of the art. 297 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: Well, once he finished plane that song afterwards, someone shouted, 298 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 2: good people of Woodstock, let's drive these people out of town. 299 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: Really yeah, supposedly. I mean it's like quoted when people 300 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: talk about. 301 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: It, that's so funny, like pitchforks. 302 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Most of his compositions were you know, 303 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 2: full of musical notes and such, but he was obsessed 304 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 2: with silence, and he was also fighting specifically against I 305 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: didn't realize how far back musaic goes. The concept of 306 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 2: music goes back. I want to say, the twenties, thirties, 307 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 2: and now it's a trademark term has been for like 308 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: seventy years. Just background music, just the constant, irritating background 309 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: noise of modern civilization. He absolutely despised it, and I 310 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: really appreciate that because I'm actually someone who I don't 311 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: fuck with background music unless I have like a really 312 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 2: specific purpose, Like if I am writing in a crowded place, 313 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 2: I will put on stone or metal or something like 314 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,199 Speaker 2: to like obliterate my brain and get things done. But 315 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 2: like and I'll listen to music when I drive, when like, 316 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: when my brain can engage with it a little bit. 317 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: But I do not fuck with like just music just 318 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 2: constantly everywhere happening, because if you can't pay attention to it, 319 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: I'm like, this is anyway. So I like his hatred 320 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 2: of music. Yeah, And he was a particles have been 321 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 2: in the avant garde movement. He was looking to explore 322 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 2: the boundaries of what we understand his art. He didn't 323 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: talk much about his sexuality. He was gay. He lived 324 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 2: with his partner for almost fifty years. He didn't try 325 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 2: to hide it. He was also quite upfront about his politics, 326 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: and this is more hidden for him. He was an anarchist. 327 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 2: And he was an anarchist of a sort. I've read 328 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: about a ton of times when I read about art 329 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 2: figures who are engaged with anarchism. When someone is more 330 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 2: famous for something other than their political actions or their writings, 331 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 2: their anarchism is diminished to like a footnote in their biographies, 332 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 2: a sort of odd curiosity, because anarchism has so been 333 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: so thoroughly buried that most people writing about musicians and 334 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 2: artists literally don't know what the word means. Again, not 335 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 2: a huge Henry Miller fan, but at one point an 336 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 2: interviewer who wrote an entire book length interview with the 337 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: modernist author Henry Miller for People and from Here was like, 338 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 2: you call yourself an anarchist, but you're so organized. And 339 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 2: Henry Miller's like. 340 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't know what that word means. 341 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 2: No, they don't. They don't know what the word means. 342 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 2: That is the political label of the person they are 343 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 2: literally writing a book on. Yeah, and they're like, well, 344 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 2: why do you call yourself an anarchist? And he's like, 345 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 2: because I don't know. I like read Bakunin and shit, 346 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: you know. And so people sometimes think that John Cage 347 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 2: was an anarchist and that he pushed the boundaries of music. 348 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 2: He was, you know, anti the authority of the rules 349 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 2: of music, and he was that right, but he was 350 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 2: aware of it as a political force. In his mid seventies, 351 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 2: he wrote a poetry book called Anarchy, which opens on 352 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: an with an essay on anarchism. And the reason I'm 353 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 2: talking about this one. I just like talking about anarchism 354 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: whenever I can. But I think to understand anarcho punk 355 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: and the way in which politics and specifically anti authoritarian 356 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 2: and anarchist politics infuse culture and music. I feel like 357 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 2: this is like really useful, and I think a lot 358 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: of it goes back to him, and I can draw 359 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: a direct line from him to an arcopunk and that 360 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 2: makes me really happy. 361 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a very important figure. 362 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. On the first page of that, in that essay, 363 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 2: he writes, we don't need government. We need utilities, air, water, energy, 364 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 2: travel and communication means food and shelter. We have no 365 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: need for imaginary mountain ranges between separate nations, nor do 366 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 2: we have any need for the continuing division of people 367 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 2: into those who have what they need and those who don't. 368 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 2: Then he like the second page of it is like 369 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 2: basically a page length quote of recurring hero on this 370 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 2: pod Malatesta. John Cage just seemed like an incredible man. 371 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,719 Speaker 2: He was like into macrobiotic cooking when he ascivated it. 372 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 2: Had any regrets, he said he would have been a 373 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 2: botanist instead of a musician. He wrote a book about 374 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 2: mushroom foraging and he organized a society for amateur micologists. 375 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 3: I swear to God, anarchist culture is so beautiful, Like 376 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 3: you just get these people who. 377 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: Have such a strong sense of their center. They and they. 378 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 3: Realize what real authority is and that you know, it's 379 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 3: not it's not flimsy. 380 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And as he got to the end of 381 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 2: his life, he practiced four thirty three every day in 382 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: front of his piano, which is a kind of cool 383 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: meditative practice. 384 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 3: You know, I like that meditating for that long. That's 385 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 3: not as long as I want to meditate the same. 386 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. He died in nineteen ninety two of a stroke 387 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 2: at the age of seventy nine, and I've always wondered 388 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 2: whether he was going to get his own episodes, and 389 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: maybe he will one day, But I basically was like, hooray, 390 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 2: I got to talk about four thirty three guy. And 391 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 2: it's hard to overstate his influence on avant garde music. 392 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: Think of him as the first famous noise musician in 393 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: the modern sense. And he's going to influence some hippies 394 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: in the UK who are going to reinvent punk rock, 395 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 2: spearheaders genre called a narco punk, and dictate so much 396 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 2: of the radical political aesthetics of the Western world for 397 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 2: decades to come. But before someone can reinvent punk rock, 398 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 2: they have to cut to ads. It just happens. Actually, 399 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 2: Krass would fucking hate that I am doing this, But 400 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 2: that's what's happening right now. Because actually I have critiques 401 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: around class and crass, but we'll get to that later 402 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 2: because I understand the needs of working artists in a way. Whatever. Anyway, 403 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 2: here's ads. I have to put them here. Here they 404 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:39,479 Speaker 2: are so before someone can reinvent punk rock, someone has 405 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: to invent punk rock. As to who did that, I 406 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: don't fucking know. People like to argue about it. There's 407 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 2: an awful lot of proto punk bands. Iggy Pop and 408 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: the band the Stooges from Detroit did some punk rock 409 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 2: shit starting nineteen sixty seven. MC five started also in 410 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 2: Detroit nineteen sixty three. There was another Detroit band, an 411 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 2: all black band called Death that was formed in nineteen 412 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 2: seventy one. Have you seen that documentary about them? I 413 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 2: think it's called a band called Death. It's so good. 414 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: I really I really want to see that. 415 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the Velvet Underground is seen as proto punk 416 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 2: out of New York City. Have you heard of this 417 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 2: band called the Dictators? No, I don't like them. They 418 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 2: formed in nineteen seventy three in New York. The New 419 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 2: York Dolls were from New York nineteen seventy two. Punk 420 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 2: rock absolutely came out of rock, specifically came out of 421 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: garage rock, a sixty genre that was centered around Detroit 422 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 2: and New York City. A lot of these bands were 423 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 2: leftist or anarchists, most notably MC five, a working class 424 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 2: band with ties to veteran of the Pod Up against 425 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 2: the Wall Motherfuckers, who were a New York City anarchist 426 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 2: street gang. But most histories of punk seem to agree 427 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 2: that punk, what we call punk today, was actually built 428 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 2: out of maintainstream acts, the ramones, the sex pistols in 429 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: the Clash. By nineteen seventy six, you've got a bunch 430 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 2: of the classic first punk bands, also like the Slits 431 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 2: and the Damned. As for the word punk, it actually 432 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: has a different etymology than I thought coming into. 433 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: This weird Okay, I'd always. 434 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: Heard the like homosexual and like sex worker. Yeah, etymology, 435 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: that's what I thought. So it's two different etymologies that 436 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 2: got mashed together. The word punk is a reclamation of 437 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 2: a slur. I think most people know that Shakespeare used 438 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 2: the word a lot for female sex workers. There's a 439 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 2: song even older than Shakespeare called Simon the Old King 440 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 2: that says being drunk is quote a sin, as it 441 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 2: is to keep a punk. 442 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. 443 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 3: I didn't realize that punk referred to a female sex worker. 444 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:45,959 Speaker 1: I had never heard that. 445 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the oldest English version of it, to quote 446 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 2: an article called the Rotten Etymology of Punk by JP Robinson. Quote. Meanwhile, 447 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 2: on the other side of the Atlantic, a new meaning 448 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 2: for punk grew, a meaning that had never been used 449 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 2: in Britain. Punk as rotting wood used for tinder and 450 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,239 Speaker 2: eventually other things that smolder like fuses an incense. And 451 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 2: this was derived from the indigenous Lenape language. 452 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: What this is amazing. 453 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is a stronger etymology. It became a 454 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 2: word for things that are kind of shitty, like bad 455 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: performances were punk shows. 456 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: That's so beautiful. 457 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 3: I love that there's indigenous idnology to that. 458 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: That's so great. 459 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that the modern use of punk 460 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 2: derogatorily like don't be a punk or punk ass motherfucker 461 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: or whatever is actually pretty true to this old slang. 462 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 2: This like just something that's shitty, you know. 463 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: I love that. And then also it's like I think like. 464 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 3: New York City is like Lenape territory, So I think 465 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 3: that's that's adorable. 466 00:25:59,040 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: I love that. 467 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 2: Like, so it comes out of New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 468 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 2: Tons of music was being called punk in the nineteenth century. 469 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: In eighteen ninety nine, a West Coast guy named Otto 470 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 2: Wise wrote a skating review of some music he heard 471 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 2: in a music hall, calling it the most punk song 472 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 2: ever heard in a hall. And then it started being 473 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 2: used in the nineteen tens to mean sort of popular music, 474 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 2: non highbrow music. Wow, anything that is popular for being 475 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: kind of shitty and like lowbrow was punk. So then 476 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 2: people started using it positively as far back as like 477 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 2: nineteen tens, like yeah, so fucking what, we're not perfect 478 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 2: at this, we like it that way. There was like 479 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 2: all of these articles where people would say, oh, yeah, 480 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 2: so her voice is a little punk, but we like 481 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 2: it imperfect. 482 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: That is fucking great. I uh yeah. I just went 483 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 1: on this like personal deep dive with. 484 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 3: Man and the Witch, like really really trying to like 485 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 3: fully understand what she's talking about, and it just gave 486 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 3: me such a beautiful sense of working class pride. It's 487 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 3: like it's like even way way way wa way way 488 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 3: back before there was you know, this idea of unions, 489 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 3: like working class people were just like doing all this 490 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 3: amazing organizing, and like so much of what we think 491 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 3: of as being union based was just like working class 492 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 3: people drawing boundaries for themselves and trying to have a 493 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 3: good life. So I love like when something that you 494 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 3: didn't think was as old shows up way back. 495 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, but kind of like we've been doing this forever. 496 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 2: And also just even that the like like punk almost 497 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: feels like almost a modern slang, not just the word 498 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: like punk, like punk rock, but like, yeah, don't be 499 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 2: a punk that feels very modern. It is five hundred 500 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: plus years old. 501 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought, like, you know, maybe fifties forties. No, 502 00:27:58,800 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: this is that's so cool. 503 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like it's older than modern English the language. Yeah, 504 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 2: and it also became slang for delinquents, especially young gay men. 505 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 2: By the nineteen forties. It was slank in gay culture, 506 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 2: for the bottom in a gay relationship. 507 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: That's what I thought. That's what I. 508 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 2: Thought totally, and that one might have also come in 509 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 2: from the British use of it, right, but like delinquents 510 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,239 Speaker 2: who are kind of queer, very lowbrow. Of course this 511 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 2: gets applied to rock and roll. In nineteen sixty seven, 512 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 2: a journalist said quote, We've got kids out there in 513 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: Vietnam dying without a sound, and we've got punks here 514 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: who dress up like girls and make millions of dollars 515 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: doing it. The Rolling Stones were called punks, the Beatles 516 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 2: were called punks. Bob Dylan was called a punk, and 517 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 2: hippies were called punks. And it's funny because punk is 518 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 2: usually presented as an opposition to hippies. But it's actually 519 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 2: its natural growth. Really, it's dialectic. But I hate that. 520 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 2: I now know what dialectic means. I refused it to 521 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: just pretend I didn't say that. It's the thing that 522 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 2: responds to the thing. 523 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: Nah, I don't like I don't like it because it's 524 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: too political ease, you know. 525 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and it means different things to every single 526 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 2: person who says it. 527 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I I don't know. 528 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: I like the idea of saying like it's part of 529 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: a conversation. 530 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. 531 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 3: I really try to bring things back to vernacular and 532 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 3: as much as you can. 533 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 2: Oh no, totally. 534 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 3: And I had such a hard time with Caliban and 535 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 3: the Witch, and I was longing for Prop to do 536 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 3: a translation. 537 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And there are some critiques to be laid 538 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 2: at the feet of that book in terms of its 539 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 2: accuracy around the Witch Trials. But oh yeah, that's a okay. 540 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 2: So when early punk bands were called punk, it wasn't 541 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: like these bands suck or this is a new genre, 542 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 2: but it was more we're keeping with this history of 543 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 2: being like, this is low brow, delinquent, kind of queer music. 544 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 2: And this got cemented when that band MC five, when 545 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 2: a reviewer called them punks in nineteen seventy two. This 546 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 2: is sort of when it kind of sticks. But it 547 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 2: didn't even have a specific sound, not until those specific 548 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 2: bands like the Sex Pistols, and then it suddenly did. 549 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 3: I got to be on stage with Wayne Kramer one time. 550 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 3: It was so so beautiful. 551 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 2: Is that a sex Pistols? 552 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: Guy? 553 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 2: I can't remember names? 554 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: He's from MC five. 555 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: Oh shit, Oh okay, that's way cooler. Fuck. Yeah. I 556 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 2: struggle all the time with music trivia because I just 557 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 2: literally can't remember names, which is why I actually kind 558 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 2: of like punk, because like the singer of Crass being 559 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 2: Steve Ignorant, I'm like, I can remember Steve Ignorant. 560 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: You know, right, Yeah, And it's more about band names. 561 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, or art names like that totally yeah. But what 562 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 2: I can remember, Jolie is I can remember that I 563 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 2: need to do two ad break during each episode. I 564 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 2: remember that very well. And I bet you, dear listener, 565 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: remember the horrible jingles of our wonderful advertisers, whom I 566 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 2: all love very dearly. Here they are my favorite things 567 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: in the world, and we're back. So in nineteen seventy seven, 568 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,959 Speaker 2: an anarchist magazine called Fifth Estate, which is still around, 569 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 2: actually wrote about this new punk phenomena and they talked 570 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 2: about its political content in an article called punk Rock, 571 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 2: Musical fad or Radical Kernel, which is a pretty like 572 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 2: that's a correct question to ask around punk absolutely and 573 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: basically they're like, is this punk rock thing? Is it anarchist? 574 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 2: Is it right wing? Is it mainstream pop? And much 575 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 2: like the Wall that says eat the rich and then 576 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 2: some racist stuff and then Bob was here, the answer 577 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: is yes, it is anarchist, it is right wing, it 578 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 2: is mainstream pop. It is everything punks good and bad 579 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 2: in that And actually, to be clear, when I say 580 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: good and bad, some of the bobless here is actually 581 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: some of the best punk I really like. I really 582 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: like cocksparuh. But maybe I'll find out that they're terrible people. 583 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: I don't know, but I really like some of the 584 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: OI from early times, the non racist stuff anyway. So 585 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 2: in that article they admit that they are old hippies 586 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 2: looking at this thing from the outside, so they're not 587 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 2: being like, we are the punks, right, but they've clearly 588 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 2: got a lot of knowledge. They talk about how there's 589 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 2: They identify three different strains of punk in nineteen seventy seven. 590 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: The most popular was the one in the UK built 591 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 2: around the sex Pistols, which was mainstream. Then there was 592 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 2: the New York scene around CBGB's as Fifth State puts it, 593 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 2: and I think this is a slightly reductive way putting it, 594 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,719 Speaker 2: but Fifth State puts it. Groups like the Dictators merge 595 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 2: right wing lyrics manifest destiny disco with not so subtle 596 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 2: appeals to the fatish sato masochism now so popular in 597 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: the Big Apple. Not much there. That's their review of 598 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 2: the New York scene. I had never heard of the Dictators, which, 599 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,479 Speaker 2: if you're a music person you're listening to me, you're like, 600 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 2: what I thought she was punk? I don't care. They 601 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 2: are legitimately one of the founders of punk. There are 602 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 2: one of the proto punk bands, and I swear I'm 603 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 2: not expressing this just because of my bias. It is 604 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: so bland. This is the blandest proto punk I have 605 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 2: ever heard. They recently reunited and put out a song 606 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 2: called Goddamn New York and it's a bunch of seventy 607 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 2: year olds with like a really low energy, fuck the 608 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 2: rich song that still manages to complain about Chinese billionaires 609 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 2: and a far right guy from the metal band Man 610 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 2: of War is in that band. 611 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very boring. 612 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. And then there was a third strain in nineteen 613 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 2: seventy seven, a West Coast punk that was more independent 614 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 2: and hated the record industry. And they're interesting because that's 615 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 2: like kind of what grows up in the UK, and 616 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 2: everyone attributes it to the UK. But West Coast punk 617 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 2: built a network of zines, some of which were just 618 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: about music, but some covered politics. A magazine called New 619 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 2: Diseases with diseases spelled wrong because they're punks was already 620 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,320 Speaker 2: calling out Nazi punks with an article that read, Fascism 621 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 2: is on the rise. The time to renounce it forever. 622 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 2: Fascism is the negation and the end of the individual, 623 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 2: the end of creativity. Punk and anarchism is the shout 624 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 2: of the individual. It's creativity brought into our lives. It's 625 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 2: the end of the oppressor and not the myth of 626 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 2: the fascist dictator. It's not coy posing its revolution, which 627 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:53,479 Speaker 2: is a very punk uh not very However, from Fifth 628 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 2: Estate's analysis, UK punk grew out of working class resentment, 629 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 2: while West Coast US punk grew out of a rejection 630 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 2: of middle class values. But I found another source that 631 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 2: argued something different that I found kind of interesting. Maybe 632 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 2: I find this interesting because whatever, if you're listening to 633 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 2: this podcast, you probably like weird history shit. So in 634 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 2: the early nineties there was a federation of anarchists across 635 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 2: the US called the Love and Rage Federation, and in 636 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 2: their newsletter an author named Christopher Day wrote this, It 637 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 2: was a bit of a long quote, but it's about 638 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 2: the political climate and the economic climate that punk came 639 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 2: out of. Quote. After the Second World War, a deal 640 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 2: was struck in the United States between major corporations and 641 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 2: the organized labor movement that basically guaranteed a large privileged 642 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: section of the working class steady improvements in its standard 643 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 2: of living in exchange for social peace and support of 644 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,839 Speaker 2: the US military actions around the world in terms of consciousness, 645 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 2: if not always in terms of the economic position in 646 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 2: the overall process of exploitation. The effect of this deal 647 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 2: was to deproltarianize a huge section of the US workforce. 648 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 2: That deal was broken in the nineteen sixties. So basically, 649 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 2: it's saying like, after World War Two, a whole ton 650 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 2: of people, especially white working class people, became middle class. 651 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 2: And this is why everyone like dreams of the fifties 652 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 2: as like all the racists or like that was when 653 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 2: everything was perfect. It's because that's when more white people 654 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 2: got to be middle class. To continue the quote, that 655 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 2: deal was broken in the nineteen sixties when anti colonial 656 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 2: movements around the world and the Black liberation movement in 657 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 2: the US inspired millions of relatively privileged white youth to 658 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,879 Speaker 2: openly oppose and defy the US war against Vietnam. At 659 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 2: the same time, the enormous expenditures the US was making 660 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 2: to wage the war were undermining US domination of the 661 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 2: world economy. The other industrialized countries were becoming more competitive. 662 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 2: Opek forced industrialized countries to pay more for oil, and 663 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:56,720 Speaker 2: certain Third world countries like Korea and Brazil began to industrialize. 664 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 2: The global capitalist restructuring that has resulted has had several 665 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 2: main features. The most significant is the massive relocation of 666 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 2: the industrial production from the old imperialist countries to the 667 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 2: Third world. So basically it's like when the rust belt 668 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: starts rust belting to continue to quote. Hand in hand 669 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 2: with this de industrialization has gone a steady erosion into 670 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 2: standard of living of the US working class, both in 671 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 2: the form of lost jobs and wage cuts, and in 672 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 2: the form of cuts in social programs. While the worst 673 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 2: effects of this erosion have been borne by people of color, 674 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 2: it is important to note that the erosion has affected 675 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 2: the entire working class. Amongst the white working class accustomed 676 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 2: to middle class standard of living, the brunt of the 677 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 2: changes have been borne by their children as they have 678 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 2: entered the workforce. Young workers have always had to take 679 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 2: cruddier jobs at lower pay. What is different this time 680 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 2: is that those lower wages are not the first step 681 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 2: in a progression of better paying jobs. Rather, they are 682 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 2: a dead end. As probably the longest quote I've done 683 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 2: on this show, but it's so fascinating to me, and 684 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: I quoted at full in full, because this is what's 685 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:04,959 Speaker 2: happening now. 686 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, it's just a it's just another it's another 687 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: like level of degradation. 688 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like all of these people who got promised 689 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 2: to be middle class are not middle class. And a 690 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 2: lot of people who are promised upward mobility into the 691 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 2: middle class are not. That is not available to them. 692 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 2: And I remember reading something there's like a it was 693 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,439 Speaker 2: like a tweet or something. It's like, oh, the last 694 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 2: time that this happened, we at least got some good 695 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 2: music out of it, right. 696 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think about that, but it's that's uh you 697 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 4: and I feel how kind of evil that is that, like, 698 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 4: you know, it's getting harder and harder to make a living, 699 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 4: and especially for artists, and to say like, oh, make 700 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 4: some grow, grow some beautiful flowers out of this shit. 701 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. And what's funny is it's like I hate to 702 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 2: deny people the flowers that they might be able to grow. 703 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 2: But one of the major differences is that even though 704 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 2: they were seeing erosions in the social systems, they had 705 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,919 Speaker 2: more to begin with, exactly. And so like a lot 706 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 2: of people, especially in the UK, a lot of early 707 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 2: punk comes out of working class people or dropouts of 708 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 2: middle class who are able to live off of welfare, 709 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,839 Speaker 2: you know, or like shitty, low paying jobs are enough 710 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 2: because of access to social services, and so like, we 711 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 2: don't we don't have that this time. 712 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: No, absolutely not. 713 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,879 Speaker 3: And they also had that because of mass class solidarity 714 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 3: coming out of the Second World War, like people people 715 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 3: were like, well, we survived this horrible thing, so we're 716 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 3: gonna at least have healthcare. 717 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 2: Yeah totally. And now you know, because when you look 718 00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 2: at this like long quote, you're like, oh, well, they, 719 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 2: you know, sent jobs overseas, and you're like, theoretically, what 720 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 2: the right wing is claiming to do, and I don't 721 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 2: think that they'll have particular success with this is to 722 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,280 Speaker 2: bring jobs back to the US by like through tariffs 723 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,720 Speaker 2: and stuff, right, prioritizing US made stuff. But they're pairing 724 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 2: it with even further gutting of all social services. Like 725 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 2: so it's not actually helping the American working class at all. 726 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 2: I doubt I have to convince anyone who listens to 727 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 2: that show of this, but like. 728 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're just making people more desperate. 729 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 2: Yeah totally. And so instead it's like, oh, yeah, there 730 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 2: will be some jobs here and they will be absolutely 731 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 2: the worst. So in the seventies, workers were suddenly I'm 732 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,800 Speaker 2: not quoting anymore, workers were suddenly forced to compete with 733 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 2: workers in other countries like Mexico and Malaysia. A lot 734 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 2: of this early history of punk and anarchism that I'm 735 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,919 Speaker 2: pulling a lot of this from comes from a zine 736 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 2: put together by an anonymous editor, and that zene is 737 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 2: called Rebel Close, Rebel Songs, Rebel Pose, and it was 738 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 2: like someone who like literally went to the microfish and 739 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 2: read all the old stuff to put it together. And 740 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,280 Speaker 2: the editor of that zcene says, quote places like Mexico 741 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 2: and Malaysia incidentally, places that have raging, fucking punk scenes 742 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 2: that are centers of anarchist ideas and activity. 743 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 3: I don't know about Malaysian anarchism. 744 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: That's awesome, Yeah, I know. 745 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 2: So I know a little bit about Malaysian punk, and 746 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 2: it's mostly through the anonymous editor of the scene and 747 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 2: some of the people around that scene. And I want 748 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 2: to know more about It's like interesting because people like, 749 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 2: we'll talk about it later when we get further and 750 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,879 Speaker 2: further into how anarcho punk kind of brought anarchism back 751 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 2: way more than I realized. And it didn't just do 752 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 2: it in the Western world. It like spread and developed 753 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 2: its own traditions everywhere and anyway. It's cool. 754 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, because music doesn't have borders. 755 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, as John Cage put it doesn't have imaginary mountain ranges. 756 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 2: I really like that way of imagining borders. And people 757 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,879 Speaker 2: were promised a future and they were told to work 758 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 2: within the system to improve the system. You know, they're 759 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,399 Speaker 2: coming out of the sort of hippie era and people 760 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 2: are like, oh, okay, well we have a few environmental 761 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 2: protections now and don't worry, everything's going to be better 762 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 2: and you know whatever. And people kept seeing that that 763 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 2: wasn't happening, and so punk came with a promise, and 764 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 2: its promise was there is no future. You know. Its 765 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 2: promise was like, nah, that's all a lie. But dear listener, 766 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 2: you'd better hope there's a future because you're not going 767 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:30,919 Speaker 2: to get to hear the rest of this four parter 768 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 2: until the future. Thank you, Thank you. When we come 769 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:38,879 Speaker 2: back on Wednesday, we're going to talk about the rise 770 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 2: of punk in the UK, and we're going to talk 771 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 2: about how a bunch of not young hippies met a 772 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 2: young punk and started a band that changed the world. 773 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 2: But if people want to hear your band that it's 774 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 2: like kind of like it's funny because like Kress didn't 775 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 2: do this alone, and they very much know they didn't 776 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 2: do it alone, and like, but they're the like the 777 00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 2: one that people talk about the most. And I'm doing 778 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 2: it too, you know, But why am I saying that? 779 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody's part of a scene. 780 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like we collectively create a culture that influences 781 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,839 Speaker 2: and changes things. But if you want to hear the 782 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 2: one that you do, how can they do that? 783 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 3: You can find my music in all the places, you know, 784 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 3: it's everywhere. My band and my illegal name is Jolie Holland. 785 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you got you like lucked out with a 786 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,360 Speaker 2: legal name that works for a band. 787 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 1: It's the only thing my father gave me. 788 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 2: I'm actually curious, like where you see yourself in the 789 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 2: tradition of punk, cause, like I maybe just because I 790 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,760 Speaker 2: like first started hearing your music when I started hanging 791 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 2: out and like squats and things like that, and so 792 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 2: it was like around the same time I started hearing 793 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 2: like things that would be classified as punk. And I 794 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 2: would guess that most people don't classify your music as punk, 795 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,760 Speaker 2: but like the like broader world of that, I'm curious 796 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 2: how you see yourself fitting into that. 797 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: You know, I was. 798 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 3: A homeless street kid and we played the weirdest music, 799 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 3: you know. And then like I recorded my record Catalpa, 800 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,440 Speaker 3: which is just like all it was all just like 801 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 3: home recordings for just like really really flaky shit. 802 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:34,479 Speaker 1: There's like three coughs on that record. And then it. 803 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,800 Speaker 3: Was taken it face value as like so called folk music, 804 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 3: although you know, it's like I know a lot about 805 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 3: traditional music, and there's kind of a grounding of traditional 806 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,279 Speaker 3: music in my work, but it's not it's not all 807 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 3: of what I do. And then that record blew up 808 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 3: and it was like in the top ten in the 809 00:44:54,520 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 3: college charts on both coasts, like twenty years ago, and 810 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,359 Speaker 3: it blew my mind, like I because I had never 811 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,399 Speaker 3: played the East coast at that point because I'm from 812 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 3: Houston and I was living on the West coast. And 813 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 3: then I started playing shows with that band, and it 814 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 3: was so hard to figure out even how to present 815 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 3: it because it it was all. 816 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,760 Speaker 1: The flakiest shit, you know. Katalpa is so flaky. 817 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 3: And then we recorded Escondido, which is a lot more together. 818 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 3: That record it's whatever, it's a studio record, yeah, and 819 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,839 Speaker 3: I went out and I started playing shows. And this 820 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,720 Speaker 3: was in my late twenties, and I started playing shows 821 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 3: with that you know material, and I was on a 822 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 3: punk rock label. I was on Anti, which is a 823 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 3: sidiary of Epitaph Records, and I had like a you know, 824 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 3: NPR audience and it blew out my mind. 825 00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:57,120 Speaker 2: Interesting. 826 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 3: I was like, there's people wearing khaki pants in this audience, 827 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 3: and it totally freaked me out because like I, you know, 828 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 3: I was just such an outsider and it was like, 829 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 3: who are these people? 830 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,799 Speaker 1: You know, it was very it was very confusing. 831 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 3: So it's been I'm really happy that you heard my 832 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,799 Speaker 3: music in that context because to a lot of people, yeah, 833 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 3: I just think, like, you know, my music does come 834 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 3: out of a microcultural context. So it's always been bizarre 835 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 3: fitting in. It's never been fully natural. 836 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:41,840 Speaker 2: I mean, the mainstream craves authenticity, and not even always 837 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:43,839 Speaker 2: necessarily in a bad way. I think that people who 838 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,840 Speaker 2: live outside of subculture feel like they're missing something, and 839 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 2: so when people who come from inside of subculture are like, hey, 840 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 2: here's a thing and it's available to you, but it 841 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,400 Speaker 2: comes from subculture, I think people eat that up. 842 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 1: You know, if you want to hear part of the 843 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:02,840 Speaker 1: scene that I was in. 844 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 3: Listen to this absolutely atrocious noise music from band camp 845 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 3: called Donut Band. Okay, I love it so much. 846 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 2: And are you on this? 847 00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, you won't recognize me. I'm just like playing 848 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: some weird violin or something. 849 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 2: Okay. Well, that's where we're going to leave it for today, 850 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 2: and when we come back Wednesday, we're going to talk 851 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 2: about UK punk and we're gonna talk about weird hippies, 852 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 2: and we're going to talk about music that I think 853 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 2: is cool and interesting. And oh, I've got to shout 854 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 2: out my own things. I have a book coming out 855 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,919 Speaker 2: about punk rock Scooby Doo. See it's punk rock and 856 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 2: well it's the third book in the Daniel Kaine series, 857 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 2: which someone is called punk Rock Scooby Doo and I 858 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,000 Speaker 2: like that way of describing it. And it's a third book, 859 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,400 Speaker 2: but it also stands alone because it's a bit of 860 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,040 Speaker 2: a prequel. And I'm going to be kickstarting it in March, 861 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 2: which might be very soon if you're listening to this 862 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,839 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five, and you can back it. And 863 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 2: I'm gonna have audiobook versions of all three books in 864 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 2: the Daniel Kine series. So if you really want to 865 00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 2: hear all of them, you can, and you should do that. 866 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,960 Speaker 2: I guess if you want, all right, I'll see everyone 867 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:27,279 Speaker 2: all on Wednesday. Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is 868 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 2: a production of cool Zone Media and more 869 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 3: Podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, 870 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 3: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 871 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,879 Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.