WEBVTT - Zone 7 Legends: Detective Lindsey Wade 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:14.080 It was December twelfth, nineteen seventy three. It was a Wednesday. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:18.360 My two older sisters were home from college for Christmas break. 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.840 My mom wanted to get some shoes for a Christmas party. 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.119 So my sister Sheila said, Hey, I'll drive you and 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.000 I will sit in the car with the two babies. 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.200 My sister Shelly, and now, while you go in real 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.199 quick and grab the shoes. So we go to the 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:38.040 local mall. So my sister Sheila pulled where you would 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:39.800 think it is kind of like the fire lane. So 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:42.040 my mom was door to door. Could just jump in 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:44.559 real quick, get the shoes, get back in the car, 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:47.800 and go. Well, little did I know that I was 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:51.680 about to witness my first death notification. Sheila was in 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.160 the driver's seat with the windows down. Me and Shelley 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.600 were in the back seat. We were five and six 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.880 and we were singing a Livington John saw If you 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.960 love me, let me know. I noticed a young boy 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:08.039 walking up to the driver's side and he said to Sheila, Hey, Sheila, 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:12.520 how are you doing. She recognized him immediately instantly, and 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.560 she was happy. She said, Hey, I'm just home from 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:18.479 college for Christmas break. What are you up to? His 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:23.319 face changed and he said, you haven't heard now. Sheila 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.360 was still smiling, but not as big, and she had 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:30.640 a little concern in her voice, and she said heard what. 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.720 And the young boy with long brown hair leaned into 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:38.040 the car and touched Sheila on the arm and said, 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:43.560 Ginger's been murdered. Ginger and her mom they were shot. Well, 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.080 the next several hours were just awful. They were scary, 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.800 they were confusing. There were rumors, there were some real details, 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:57.200 and the reality was rushing at all of us. Fifteen 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.240 years later, I was an intern for Max Clear in 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.080 the Secretary of State and there was a gentleman by 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.600 the name of Joe Drola who was the legislative liaison 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:10.720 for the DA's office. He was always funny, really bright, 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.600 and always had a story. I always loved running into him. 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.120 Four years later, I was working for the Crime Commission 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.960 and I would have the good fortune of working alongside 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:28.080 Joe on many cases. Ironically, Joe was the assistant distric 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:32.680 attorney who convicted the killers that had murdered my sister's friend, 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.880 Ginger and her mother. I always had this overwhelming need 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.080 to thank him for the job that he did on 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.359 that case. A death penalty case, and one late afternoon 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:45.400 I had the ability to do that. It was just 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:47.760 the two of us in an office, and I broke 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:51.800 the subject, and he immediately started talking about those murders, 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.760 and he told me things I had never known. He 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.000 was kind, he was smart, he was honest, He was compassionate, 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:02.480 and he spoke about this family with nothing but love 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:06.560 and concern. He was a true advocate. I admire Joe 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:12.400 his legal mind, but mostly his compassion. Sometimes in your 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:16.960 life there will be full circle moments that you could 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:22.480 never predict. My guest has had a full circle career, 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:25.760 and you ain't gonna believe it. She has written a 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:30.480 book that I could not put down, y'all. I ran 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.840 through that thing in a day. Lindsay Wade is a 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:40.400 retired detective with fourteen years at a Seattle, Washington. She 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:45.280 has arrested numerous cerrial rapists and cold blooded killers, and 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:47.680 it says right there on the sleeve of her book 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:52.440 she ain't never back down. She retired in twenty eighteen, 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.720 but she didn't go fishing. She went to Attorney General's 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:00.560 office as a senior investigator over the Sake program and 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:05.920 solved even more serial rate cases and cold cases. Lindsay 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:11.200 Wade had my undivided attention from Jump Street and she 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:16.360 never let it go. Detective Lindsay Wade, Welcome to Zone seven. 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.000 Thank you so much for having me. I'm gonna tell 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:21.359 you something. I was so honored you sent me an 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.960 advanced copy of that book In My DNA, My Career 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:30.520 Investigating your Worst Nightmares. It was listen. You know how 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:34.480 you hear a song and you think, gosh, that literally 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.800 was written for me, like word for word. Everything about 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:41.279 it just made me think of my own career. That's 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.800 how I felt reading your book. Oh, I'm so glad now, 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.440 Detective Wade, can you tell us when your book will 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:52.120 be available, because again I got me an advanced copy. Yes, 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:57.280 so it actually is available for pre order right now 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:01.560 through the publisher at one Idea press dot com. So 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.480 you can actually pre order a copy that will be 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:08.799 signed by me. Those will ship out by April thirtieth. 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:12.320 The book will be available for purchase online and in 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:19.080 bookstores May thirtieth. Her book in My DNA, Chapter one, 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:23.440 line one, and I quote Dad, Dad, there's a man 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:27.080 in my room. So you run into your parents bedroom 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:31.120 and your parents basically try to calm you down, like, honey, 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.640 there's no monster, there's nobody in there. Right. Tell everybody 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:40.080 what your dad found on the recliner. Pocket knife. Now, y'all, 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:42.760 if that ain't a heart stopping moment for a parent. 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.680 You've got this little bitty girl running in your bedroom 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.040 like children will do. They're scared, you know, they think 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.080 they heard Something's all something. You calm them down, put 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.640 them back in bed, and you just walk the house 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:57.000 just to make sure, and you find a pocket knife 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.599 on your recliner. Well, you know, the strange sank Cheryl 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.520 is that I don't think he found the pocket knife 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:07.880 until the next day, and you know later when we 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:09.719 talked about it, because believe it or not, this is 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.000 not something we talked about. When I was a kid 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:14.920 kind of got I feel like swept under the rug, 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:17.839 and my parents had sort of put together what happened 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.760 unbeknownst to me. You know, my dad started putting the 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.880 pieces together, finding some strange things happening at our house 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.240 during that time. But you know, and he eventually figured 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:31.960 out who was in the house. But I didn't know 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.080 any of this stuff at the time. You know, in 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:36.159 my mind, I'm just thinking if I know what I saw, 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.760 I know what happened, and nobody really seemed to believe me. 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:45.720 So it was, Yeah, it was. It was. It was scary, horrifying. 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.600 And you know, sometimes parents think, well, if we do, 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.760 you know, don't ever mention it again. Maybe she'll just 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.640 forget about it and won't worry about it, when the 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.200 reality is, little children always know more than way think 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.760 they know, and especially in your kids, I think you 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.240 had that detective mind as a little child. Yeah, I 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.320 mean I think definitely from an early age I was 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.640 I had an interest in crime, and you know, by 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.680 the time I was in high school, no doubt, I 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:19.800 was reading about Ted Bundy. And you know, I actually 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:23.000 had a friend who, at one point in high school said, 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.120 in a joking way, you know, you're going to become 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.080 a detective one day and you're gonna end up solving 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.360 my murder, you know, which is just a bizarre thing 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.160 to say. But that stands out to me as you know, 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:38.000 something that I was on the path to way back 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:42.320 when as a teenager, and that's a remarkable another teenager 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.280 could see that in you. That's kind of cool. All right, 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:49.600 Let's get to chapter two where you say quote. Up 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.800 until that point, I didn't know that evil existed or 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.280 that monsters were real. Tell us what you're talking about there. 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:00.760 One of the things that happened during my childhood. There 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:04.720 were two young girls in my community who were murdered 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.600 back in nineteen eighty six, and I didn't know either 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.840 one of the girls, but I was familiar with the area, 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.440 definitely familiar with the park where one of the girls 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:19.000 was killed, and they were kind of like urban legends, 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.600 you know, in my community. I mean, I think most 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.760 communities have those cases, right that like everybody knows about. 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:30.840 They're just long unsolved, this mystery and kind of a 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.800 black cloud that hangs over the town or the community, 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.320 and everybody seems to have like some little nugget of 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:42.400 information or connection to the case, right like, oh, my 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.640 sister's best friend went to school with her, or I 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:47.920 don't know if that's if that you know, it's true 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.920 where you are, But in Tacoma, it's not a small town, 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.080 but it's a small enough town that there's always it's 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:58.080 not six degrees of separation, it's like one degree of separation, 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.720 so there's always some connection. And that's kind of how 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.840 these cases were where It doesn't matter where you go, 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:07.719 it doesn't matter who you talk to. I could walk 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.280 into any bar in Tacoma and if I said the 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:12.559 names of these two girls, there would be at the 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:14.760 least a half dozen people in there that knew what 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.520 I was talking about. There's several cases like that that 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.000 I'm fully aware of as well. And to your point, 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.160 somebody went to school with them, somebody dated their older sibling, 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:26.960 somebody went to church with them, was in Scouts with them, 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.680 lived in the same community next door. So yeah, I 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.079 mean you got a small town. You're absolutely right, one 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:37.119 degree of separation. When I look back to my childhood, 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:39.720 you know, these are cases that really left a mark 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.480 because they were It was so terrifying, you know, to 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.400 be young. I mean I was eleven. The thought that 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:47.040 you know, a twelve year old and a thirteen year 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:48.920 old could just be out, you know, for a bike 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:52.640 ride or you know, visiting a local park and somebody 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:57.200 snatches them in broad daylight and they're you know, they're 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:01.520 never seen again. And with Michelle, she was found later 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.680 the same evening by search and rescue, but Jennifer was 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:09.439 missing for almost a month before she was found. And 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:12.280 you know, so it was just those cases. They were 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:16.800 just so horrific. Community was on edge because everybody thought 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.160 there was a serial killer on the loose. You know, 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.199 we already had Green River, the Green River Killer going 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.599 in the background at that same time in our area. 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:28.840 I mean, if you think about it from that perspective, 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.920 we've already had Ted Bundy, he's coming gone. We have 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.360 the Green River Killer, you know, at work at that time, 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:39.559 and then we've got these two girls that are abducted 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.839 and murdered and nobody is apprehended. There were a lot 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.880 of questions and it was just flat out scary. And 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.319 you know, as a young kid, you don't understand victimology. 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.319 You don't understand jurisdictional things. All you know is a 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.240 girl got killed or a woman got killed, and it's horrible, 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.120 and it's on the news and it's you know, in 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.760 the paper, and that could have been me. I go 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.440 ride my bike all the time, I've been to that park. 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:05.920 I went to daycamp at that park. You just picture 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:12.360 yourself and not only does it kind of change the 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.360 way you view the world, but it changes the way 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.040 that your parents act, and you know, the way other 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:21.600 parents act. One hundred percent. There was a lot of 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.960 free range parenting. Prior to that. The kids ran out 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.880 the door, and I mean you went all through the neighborhood. 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.480 Nobody had a cell phone, you know, I got to 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.360 I was pretty pretty free to do what I wanted. 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.000 I mean, I had to check in at certain times, 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:39.319 but that was about it. Our rule growing up. We 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.720 were encouraged get out of the house and come home 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.520 when the street light turns on in front of our house, right, 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.880 That was basically the rule. And we had five girls 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:53.040 in my family. And to your point, we had a 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:57.520 horrible serial killer in Atlanta from nineteen seventy nine to 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:03.960 eighty one, Wayne Williams, killing young African American boys, and 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:08.200 I'm in a house of five Caucasian girls. My mom 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.440 was completely freaked out during those times, even though I 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.440 wasn't a little kid. I was in high school, but 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.640 she didn't care. All she knew in her mind as 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:22.040 a mama was somebody was killing children. And she would 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:23.880 always say, you know, y'all go in a group, y'all 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.200 stay in a group. And again, I mean, I wasn't 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.720 a criminologist then, but I mean I kind of understood. 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:33.160 I'm pretty sure I'm probably safe from this guy. But 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:38.040 my mama absolutely thought every child was in danger. And 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.160 that's kind of disconcerting for kids too, to see like 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.800 their neighbors parents are afraid, and people at church are afraid, 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.640 people you know at school, or afraid like adults. I mean, 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.240 that is a little unsettling. It is, you know, and 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:57.280 especially when you see, you know, kind of the way 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.000 parents viewed things, and you know, you don't really know 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:01.720 I was a kid, you don't get that perspective. You 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:03.400 just know that all of a sudden, Okay, well now 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:06.280 things have changed, and you know, you're not allowed to 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.880 go ride your bike alone anymore, or you can't walk 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:11.360 to Baskin Robbins by yourself, or you know, to seven 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.680 eleven to get a slurpee. It's you know, and you know, 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.240 for me, I don't particularly remember my parents saying like 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:18.840 you can't do this or you can't do that. I 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:22.120 just know that I had my own personal fear after 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.760 that happened, where like I didn't want to go anywhere 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.000 by myself. I don't know how it couldn't, but I 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.079 think it also probably whether you were aware at the 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.959 time or not, shaped the way you weren't the case 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:38.520 looking back on these other moments, you know, with Jennifer 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.760 and Michelle and this, you know, the incident where I 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:44.560 wake up and find this guy standing at the foot 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.360 of my bed. You know, all of those things I'm 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.960 sure came into play at least, you know, in my 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.760 subconscious just kind of changing, you know, the way I 0:13:53.880 --> 0:14:01.160 view the world. So here's another quote that I love 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.800 you said. During the search of the vehicle, we found 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:08.640 six rolls of various kinds of tape, thin white rope, 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.719 a black handle butcher knife under the driver's seat. It's 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:17.600 a rape kit. I also observed the interior passenger side 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:22.960 door handle was missing. What are you piecing together there? Well, 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.240 that was an interesting case that was a serial rapist, 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.760 and I think I don't know if it was that 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.920 case or another case, but I talked about some similarities, 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.880 you know, another case where the door either the door 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.400 handle was disabled or it was missing, and you know, 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.400 I just was thinking to myself, Holy cow, is there 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.560 is there a playbook? I mean, how do these guys 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:47.480 know how to do this? I mean, this is this 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.680 is like, you know, is there a class that they 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.760 take where, you know, like serial rapist one oh one, 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:54.600 you know, you hear, this is what you need to 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:56.440 have in your rate kit, and then you know, let's 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:59.640 think about how to disable locks and door handles and 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.960 things I got in your vehicle that really scared the 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.640 hell out of me. Those kinds of details stand out 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.560 because that's not your And I hate to ever say 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.720 typical rape, but when I hear something like that, or 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:14.520 hear a detail like that, that makes the hair on 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.240 the back of my next stand up, because that tells 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.880 me this is somebody that's got a lot of victims, 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:23.560 and this is somebody that it is at a different level. 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:27.640 This isn't like an opportunistic predator. This is somebody that 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.440 this is their job to be a predator, right, And 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.840 they're preparing that vehicle as a cage. And you know, 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:36.960 you don't have to be in this business too long, 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.400 and you learn there is a playbook, and there are 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:45.600 certain things for whatever reason, they all do, like domestic violence. 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.200 There's things they all say. If I can't have you, 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.880 nobody'll have you. There's things they do. They threatened to 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.200 take the children, they threatened to hurt the pet, They 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.200 threatened to hurt the pet in front of the children. 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.720 Rapists tend to do similar things too that want you 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.920 lock in on it, you know what you're looking at. 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.520 And I think that's a great point you're making. All right, 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.920 let's go to chapter seven where you right quote I 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:11.360 would go to the crime scene to get a feel 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.040 for the area, since I didn't have the advantage of 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.520 being there when the crime occurred. Detective I tell people 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:19.760 all the time, if you don't walt that scene, you're 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:24.040 not going to understand it. The perpetrator picked that place, 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.680 he picked that time, he picked that hour, he picked 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.640 that victim. So if you go there, you can get 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:35.280 insight to him. So kind of walk us through the 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:39.040 importance for you of walking that crime scene from a 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.680 cold case. I mean, I think there are a few 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.800 different reasons to do it. You know. For one thing, 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:46.800 photographs are only going to show you so much. You 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:51.320 can't really understand what the environment is truly like unless 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:55.400 you go there, and certainly in some cases the environment 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.480 is one hundred percent different by the time I'm going 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.080 back out there on a cold case, right Like, the 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.359 business may be gone, but you still can understand what's 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.119 you know, what's in the immediate area. You can understand 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.840 is this a residential area? You know, is there a 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.879 freeway nearby? What else is nearby? What kind of business is, 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.080 what kind of neighborhood is this, what's the activity like? 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.040 So I think that's really important. You know. The other 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:25.600 thing that's really important, I think is, you know, you're 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.439 going to be evaluating witness statements and things of that nature. 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:30.679 You want to be able to go, you know, to 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.600 the location to see if it even makes sense, if 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.639 what someone's telling you. Especially, you know, I had a 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.639 cold case where witness came forward. I think it was 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.560 maybe twenty years after the fact. And this was a 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.280 case that I was able to close, and there was 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.320 no DNA evidence or anything like that. It was just 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.520 based on very strong, circumstantial evidence and witness statements and 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:58.720 things of that nature. But this witness described this particular 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:02.000 location and that it was remote and you know, there 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:03.960 were certain a certain way you had to get back there. 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:06.239 I couldn't just take his word for it. I had 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:08.159 to go out there and see, you know, does it 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.960 really you know, do I have to actually take the 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:12.960 route that he's talking about to get out there? Does 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.200 he know what he's talking about? Does it make sense? 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.000 Or you know, could this be made up? So I 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:22.240 think going out to the scene also will help you 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:29.719 evaluate the validity of someone's information. The other thing, and 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.600 probably you know what you were talking about initially is 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.720 kind of being able to get into that mindset of 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:41.040 the offender. And you know, that was probably the primary 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.960 reason for me to go in some cases to visit 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:47.639 some of the scenes multiple times, because I just wanted 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.200 to be out there at different times of the day. 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:52.639 I wanted to be out there to see what it 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.480 sounded like, what the you know, activity level was like, 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.200 who else could see me when I was out there, 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.040 just to try to kind of put myself in the 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.280 mindset what happened here? You know, why did the victims 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.520 stop here? You know, how did they connect? What could 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:13.000 have caused the victim to stop on this deserted road? 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.639 Did the offender user ruse? Was it a blitz attack? Like? 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.240 You know, running through all those different possibilities is easier 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.520 when you're there and you're inside the environment. And to 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.800 your point, we had a cold case where the police 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.840 report said the car was in an open area when 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:35.080 it was set on fire, trying to hide the initial crime. Well, 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.920 you know, in your head, to me an open area, 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.240 are you talking about a football field, and is the 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:42.280 car in the middle of it on fire where nobody 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:44.879 would have seen the smoke or notice the car? Is 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:48.200 it surrounded by woods? You know? Well, when I drove 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.119 to it, I'm in a residential area, and I mean 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:56.159 there's house after house, like really close together. When we 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.040 get to the spot where the car was found, it's 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:03.359 literally like a double driveway, and I'm like, this ain't 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:07.280 an area. This is like a small clearing, you know. 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:11.480 And so again it completely flipped who I thought the 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:14.760 perpetrator was because this person drove there because they knew 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.640 that spot and they knew where to run to get 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:22.320 back to a house. So in that regard, it changed everything. 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.040 This was not a way out of the way dumping 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.679 ground that a lot of people use. This was a 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.200 quick spot that I could get back to Mama's house. 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:35.000 One thing, and this is another reason for the Legend series. 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:42.480 But you are absolutely brilliant at utilizing resources, and you 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:47.280 do so many smart things, like you use somebody to 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:53.160 help you create a timeline that includes documents from law enforcement, 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:58.440 Department of Corrections, employment history, vehicle registration, address history. Can 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.119 you tell us who you use and how that came about. 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:06.439 My two go to places for getting timelines done was 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:10.560 the FBI, so the ViCAP unit, they were fantastic at 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:15.480 putting together really comprehensive timelines, and the National Center for 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.000 Missing Exported Children. If it was a you know, a 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.160 crime that involved a missing child or an abductive child, 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.920 they were just absolutely fantastic because you know, they can 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.439 pull those journal searches and offline searches going back to 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:32.080 nineteen ninety. Whatever information you can provide them they can 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:34.600 incorporate into the timeline. So you know, they don't have 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:39.320 access to your local law enforcement databases, you know, RMS 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:42.200 systems and things like that. They can incorporate what you've 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:46.640 already compiled with the resources that they've got access too. 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.280 But again, for somebody that's been a detective about a 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:52.840 week and a half, that's something for them to have 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:56.800 in their toolbox. Yeah. Absolutely, that maybe they don't realize 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:00.280 the National Center can do. And you talk about you know, 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.920 VYCAP and sake, I mean, you utilize every single thing 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:07.600 and I have one mantra. I have several, but I 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:13.280 have one that says every tool on every case, every time. Yes, absolutely, 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:17.640 you're the master at that I'm telling you. Look, I mean, 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:20.719 here's the thing. It's like nobody knows it all, nobody 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:24.359 has the answers to it all. And so I think 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:27.080 that you know, the best way to be successful in 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:31.159 this business is to have a really good rolodex or 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:33.400 in this case, you know, a really good contact list 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.520 on your phone of people you can call people that 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:38.880 you know that they know their business. They can help 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:40.760 you do whatever it is that you need to get done, 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:44.120 because you know you can't do it all yourself. So 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:46.800 tell us about the John Doe warrant. This is another 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:48.480 thing that you did a couple of times that I 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:51.880 thought everybody needs to hear that and just be reminded. 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:57.000 It always surprises me when I talk with one perstman 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:01.520 and you know, I end up talking with detectives and 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:04.880 there are still people that are not familiar with John 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:13.000 Doe warrants. Basically, it's a warrant that is something to 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:17.720 stop the statute of limitations on a case. So it's 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:21.720 a case where you've developed probable cause to make an arrest. 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:24.119