1 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: It was December twelfth, nineteen seventy three. It was a Wednesday. 2 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: My two older sisters were home from college for Christmas break. 3 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: My mom wanted to get some shoes for a Christmas party. 4 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: So my sister Sheila said, Hey, I'll drive you and 5 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: I will sit in the car with the two babies. 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: My sister Shelly, and now, while you go in real 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: quick and grab the shoes. So we go to the 8 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: local mall. So my sister Sheila pulled where you would 9 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: think it is kind of like the fire lane. So 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: my mom was door to door. Could just jump in 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: real quick, get the shoes, get back in the car, 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: and go. Well, little did I know that I was 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: about to witness my first death notification. Sheila was in 14 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: the driver's seat with the windows down. Me and Shelley 15 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: were in the back seat. We were five and six 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: and we were singing a Livington John saw If you 17 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: love me, let me know. I noticed a young boy 18 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: walking up to the driver's side and he said to Sheila, Hey, Sheila, 19 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: how are you doing. She recognized him immediately instantly, and 20 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: she was happy. She said, Hey, I'm just home from 21 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: college for Christmas break. What are you up to? His 22 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: face changed and he said, you haven't heard now. Sheila 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: was still smiling, but not as big, and she had 24 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: a little concern in her voice, and she said heard what. 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: And the young boy with long brown hair leaned into 26 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: the car and touched Sheila on the arm and said, 27 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: Ginger's been murdered. Ginger and her mom they were shot. Well, 28 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: the next several hours were just awful. They were scary, 29 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: they were confusing. There were rumors, there were some real details, 30 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: and the reality was rushing at all of us. Fifteen 31 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: years later, I was an intern for Max Clear in 32 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: the Secretary of State and there was a gentleman by 33 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: the name of Joe Drola who was the legislative liaison 34 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: for the DA's office. He was always funny, really bright, 35 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: and always had a story. I always loved running into him. 36 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: Four years later, I was working for the Crime Commission 37 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: and I would have the good fortune of working alongside 38 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: Joe on many cases. Ironically, Joe was the assistant distric 39 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: attorney who convicted the killers that had murdered my sister's friend, 40 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: Ginger and her mother. I always had this overwhelming need 41 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: to thank him for the job that he did on 42 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: that case. A death penalty case, and one late afternoon 43 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: I had the ability to do that. It was just 44 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: the two of us in an office, and I broke 45 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: the subject, and he immediately started talking about those murders, 46 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: and he told me things I had never known. He 47 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: was kind, he was smart, he was honest, He was compassionate, 48 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: and he spoke about this family with nothing but love 49 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: and concern. He was a true advocate. I admire Joe 50 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: his legal mind, but mostly his compassion. Sometimes in your 51 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: life there will be full circle moments that you could 52 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: never predict. My guest has had a full circle career, 53 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: and you ain't gonna believe it. She has written a 54 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: book that I could not put down, y'all. I ran 55 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: through that thing in a day. Lindsay Wade is a 56 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: retired detective with fourteen years at a Seattle, Washington. She 57 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: has arrested numerous cerrial rapists and cold blooded killers, and 58 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: it says right there on the sleeve of her book 59 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: she ain't never back down. She retired in twenty eighteen, 60 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: but she didn't go fishing. She went to Attorney General's 61 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: office as a senior investigator over the Sake program and 62 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: solved even more serial rate cases and cold cases. Lindsay 63 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: Wade had my undivided attention from Jump Street and she 64 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: never let it go. Detective Lindsay Wade, Welcome to Zone seven. 65 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I'm gonna tell 66 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: you something. I was so honored you sent me an 67 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: advanced copy of that book In My DNA, My Career 68 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: Investigating your Worst Nightmares. It was listen. You know how 69 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: you hear a song and you think, gosh, that literally 70 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: was written for me, like word for word. Everything about 71 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: it just made me think of my own career. That's 72 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: how I felt reading your book. Oh, I'm so glad now, 73 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: Detective Wade, can you tell us when your book will 74 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: be available, because again I got me an advanced copy. Yes, 75 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: so it actually is available for pre order right now 76 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: through the publisher at one Idea press dot com. So 77 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: you can actually pre order a copy that will be 78 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 1: signed by me. Those will ship out by April thirtieth. 79 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: The book will be available for purchase online and in 80 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: bookstores May thirtieth. Her book in My DNA, Chapter one, 81 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: line one, and I quote Dad, Dad, there's a man 82 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: in my room. So you run into your parents bedroom 83 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: and your parents basically try to calm you down, like, honey, 84 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: there's no monster, there's nobody in there. Right. Tell everybody 85 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: what your dad found on the recliner. Pocket knife. Now, y'all, 86 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: if that ain't a heart stopping moment for a parent. 87 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: You've got this little bitty girl running in your bedroom 88 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: like children will do. They're scared, you know, they think 89 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: they heard Something's all something. You calm them down, put 90 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: them back in bed, and you just walk the house 91 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: just to make sure, and you find a pocket knife 92 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: on your recliner. Well, you know, the strange sank Cheryl 93 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: is that I don't think he found the pocket knife 94 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: until the next day, and you know later when we 95 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: talked about it, because believe it or not, this is 96 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: not something we talked about. When I was a kid 97 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: kind of got I feel like swept under the rug, 98 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: and my parents had sort of put together what happened 99 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: unbeknownst to me. You know, my dad started putting the 100 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: pieces together, finding some strange things happening at our house 101 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: during that time. But you know, and he eventually figured 102 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: out who was in the house. But I didn't know 103 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: any of this stuff at the time. You know, in 104 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: my mind, I'm just thinking if I know what I saw, 105 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: I know what happened, and nobody really seemed to believe me. 106 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: So it was, Yeah, it was. It was. It was scary, horrifying. 107 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes parents think, well, if we do, 108 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: you know, don't ever mention it again. Maybe she'll just 109 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: forget about it and won't worry about it, when the 110 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: reality is, little children always know more than way think 111 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: they know, and especially in your kids, I think you 112 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: had that detective mind as a little child. Yeah, I 113 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: mean I think definitely from an early age I was 114 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: I had an interest in crime, and you know, by 115 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: the time I was in high school, no doubt, I 116 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: was reading about Ted Bundy. And you know, I actually 117 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: had a friend who, at one point in high school said, 118 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: in a joking way, you know, you're going to become 119 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: a detective one day and you're gonna end up solving 120 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: my murder, you know, which is just a bizarre thing 121 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: to say. But that stands out to me as you know, 122 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: something that I was on the path to way back 123 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: when as a teenager, and that's a remarkable another teenager 124 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: could see that in you. That's kind of cool. All right, 125 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: Let's get to chapter two where you say quote. Up 126 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: until that point, I didn't know that evil existed or 127 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: that monsters were real. Tell us what you're talking about there. 128 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: One of the things that happened during my childhood. There 129 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: were two young girls in my community who were murdered 130 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty six, and I didn't know either 131 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: one of the girls, but I was familiar with the area, 132 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: definitely familiar with the park where one of the girls 133 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: was killed, and they were kind of like urban legends, 134 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: you know, in my community. I mean, I think most 135 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: communities have those cases, right that like everybody knows about. 136 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: They're just long unsolved, this mystery and kind of a 137 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: black cloud that hangs over the town or the community, 138 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: and everybody seems to have like some little nugget of 139 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: information or connection to the case, right like, oh, my 140 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: sister's best friend went to school with her, or I 141 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: don't know if that's if that you know, it's true 142 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: where you are, But in Tacoma, it's not a small town, 143 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: but it's a small enough town that there's always it's 144 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: not six degrees of separation, it's like one degree of separation, 145 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: so there's always some connection. And that's kind of how 146 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: these cases were where It doesn't matter where you go, 147 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter who you talk to. I could walk 148 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: into any bar in Tacoma and if I said the 149 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: names of these two girls, there would be at the 150 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: least a half dozen people in there that knew what 151 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: I was talking about. There's several cases like that that 152 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: I'm fully aware of as well. And to your point, 153 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: somebody went to school with them, somebody dated their older sibling, 154 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: somebody went to church with them, was in Scouts with them, 155 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: lived in the same community next door. So yeah, I 156 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: mean you got a small town. You're absolutely right, one 157 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,119 Speaker 1: degree of separation. When I look back to my childhood, 158 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: you know, these are cases that really left a mark 159 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: because they were It was so terrifying, you know, to 160 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: be young. I mean I was eleven. The thought that 161 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, a twelve year old and a thirteen year 162 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: old could just be out, you know, for a bike 163 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: ride or you know, visiting a local park and somebody 164 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: snatches them in broad daylight and they're you know, they're 165 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: never seen again. And with Michelle, she was found later 166 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: the same evening by search and rescue, but Jennifer was 167 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: missing for almost a month before she was found. And 168 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, so it was just those cases. They were 169 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: just so horrific. Community was on edge because everybody thought 170 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: there was a serial killer on the loose. You know, 171 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: we already had Green River, the Green River Killer going 172 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,599 Speaker 1: in the background at that same time in our area. 173 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about it from that perspective, 174 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: we've already had Ted Bundy, he's coming gone. We have 175 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: the Green River Killer, you know, at work at that time, 176 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: and then we've got these two girls that are abducted 177 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 1: and murdered and nobody is apprehended. There were a lot 178 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: of questions and it was just flat out scary. And 179 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: you know, as a young kid, you don't understand victimology. 180 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: You don't understand jurisdictional things. All you know is a 181 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: girl got killed or a woman got killed, and it's horrible, 182 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: and it's on the news and it's you know, in 183 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: the paper, and that could have been me. I go 184 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: ride my bike all the time, I've been to that park. 185 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: I went to daycamp at that park. You just picture 186 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: yourself and not only does it kind of change the 187 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: way you view the world, but it changes the way 188 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: that your parents act, and you know, the way other 189 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: parents act. One hundred percent. There was a lot of 190 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: free range parenting. Prior to that. The kids ran out 191 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: the door, and I mean you went all through the neighborhood. 192 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: Nobody had a cell phone, you know, I got to 193 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: I was pretty pretty free to do what I wanted. 194 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I had to check in at certain times, 195 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: but that was about it. Our rule growing up. We 196 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: were encouraged get out of the house and come home 197 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: when the street light turns on in front of our house, right, 198 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: That was basically the rule. And we had five girls 199 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: in my family. And to your point, we had a 200 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: horrible serial killer in Atlanta from nineteen seventy nine to 201 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: eighty one, Wayne Williams, killing young African American boys, and 202 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: I'm in a house of five Caucasian girls. My mom 203 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: was completely freaked out during those times, even though I 204 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: wasn't a little kid. I was in high school, but 205 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: she didn't care. All she knew in her mind as 206 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: a mama was somebody was killing children. And she would 207 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: always say, you know, y'all go in a group, y'all 208 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: stay in a group. And again, I mean, I wasn't 209 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: a criminologist then, but I mean I kind of understood. 210 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I'm probably safe from this guy. But 211 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: my mama absolutely thought every child was in danger. And 212 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: that's kind of disconcerting for kids too, to see like 213 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: their neighbors parents are afraid, and people at church are afraid, 214 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: people you know at school, or afraid like adults. I mean, 215 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: that is a little unsettling. It is, you know, and 216 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: especially when you see, you know, kind of the way 217 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: parents viewed things, and you know, you don't really know 218 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: I was a kid, you don't get that perspective. You 219 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: just know that all of a sudden, Okay, well now 220 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: things have changed, and you know, you're not allowed to 221 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: go ride your bike alone anymore, or you can't walk 222 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: to Baskin Robbins by yourself, or you know, to seven 223 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: eleven to get a slurpee. It's you know, and you know, 224 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: for me, I don't particularly remember my parents saying like 225 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: you can't do this or you can't do that. I 226 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: just know that I had my own personal fear after 227 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: that happened, where like I didn't want to go anywhere 228 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: by myself. I don't know how it couldn't, but I 229 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 1: think it also probably whether you were aware at the 230 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: time or not, shaped the way you weren't the case 231 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: looking back on these other moments, you know, with Jennifer 232 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: and Michelle and this, you know, the incident where I 233 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: wake up and find this guy standing at the foot 234 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: of my bed. You know, all of those things I'm 235 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: sure came into play at least, you know, in my 236 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: subconscious just kind of changing, you know, the way I 237 00:13:53,880 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: view the world. So here's another quote that I love 238 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: you said. During the search of the vehicle, we found 239 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: six rolls of various kinds of tape, thin white rope, 240 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,719 Speaker 1: a black handle butcher knife under the driver's seat. It's 241 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: a rape kit. I also observed the interior passenger side 242 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: door handle was missing. What are you piecing together there? Well, 243 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: that was an interesting case that was a serial rapist, 244 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: and I think I don't know if it was that 245 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: case or another case, but I talked about some similarities, 246 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: you know, another case where the door either the door 247 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: handle was disabled or it was missing, and you know, 248 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: I just was thinking to myself, Holy cow, is there 249 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: is there a playbook? I mean, how do these guys 250 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: know how to do this? I mean, this is this 251 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: is like, you know, is there a class that they 252 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: take where, you know, like serial rapist one oh one, 253 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: you know, you hear, this is what you need to 254 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: have in your rate kit, and then you know, let's 255 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: think about how to disable locks and door handles and 256 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: things I got in your vehicle that really scared the 257 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: hell out of me. Those kinds of details stand out 258 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: because that's not your And I hate to ever say 259 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: typical rape, but when I hear something like that, or 260 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: hear a detail like that, that makes the hair on 261 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: the back of my next stand up, because that tells 262 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: me this is somebody that's got a lot of victims, 263 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: and this is somebody that it is at a different level. 264 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: This isn't like an opportunistic predator. This is somebody that 265 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: this is their job to be a predator, right, And 266 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: they're preparing that vehicle as a cage. And you know, 267 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: you don't have to be in this business too long, 268 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: and you learn there is a playbook, and there are 269 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: certain things for whatever reason, they all do, like domestic violence. 270 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: There's things they all say. If I can't have you, 271 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: nobody'll have you. There's things they do. They threatened to 272 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: take the children, they threatened to hurt the pet, They 273 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: threatened to hurt the pet in front of the children. 274 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: Rapists tend to do similar things too that want you 275 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: lock in on it, you know what you're looking at. 276 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: And I think that's a great point you're making. All right, 277 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: let's go to chapter seven where you right quote I 278 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: would go to the crime scene to get a feel 279 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: for the area, since I didn't have the advantage of 280 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: being there when the crime occurred. Detective I tell people 281 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: all the time, if you don't walt that scene, you're 282 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: not going to understand it. The perpetrator picked that place, 283 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: he picked that time, he picked that hour, he picked 284 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: that victim. So if you go there, you can get 285 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: insight to him. So kind of walk us through the 286 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: importance for you of walking that crime scene from a 287 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: cold case. I mean, I think there are a few 288 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: different reasons to do it. You know. For one thing, 289 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: photographs are only going to show you so much. You 290 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: can't really understand what the environment is truly like unless 291 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: you go there, and certainly in some cases the environment 292 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: is one hundred percent different by the time I'm going 293 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: back out there on a cold case, right Like, the 294 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: business may be gone, but you still can understand what's 295 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: you know, what's in the immediate area. You can understand 296 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: is this a residential area? You know, is there a 297 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: freeway nearby? What else is nearby? What kind of business is, 298 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: what kind of neighborhood is this, what's the activity like? 299 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: So I think that's really important. You know. The other 300 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: thing that's really important, I think is, you know, you're 301 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: going to be evaluating witness statements and things of that nature. 302 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: You want to be able to go, you know, to 303 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: the location to see if it even makes sense, if 304 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: what someone's telling you. Especially, you know, I had a 305 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: cold case where witness came forward. I think it was 306 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: maybe twenty years after the fact. And this was a 307 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: case that I was able to close, and there was 308 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: no DNA evidence or anything like that. It was just 309 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: based on very strong, circumstantial evidence and witness statements and 310 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: things of that nature. But this witness described this particular 311 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: location and that it was remote and you know, there 312 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: were certain a certain way you had to get back there. 313 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,239 Speaker 1: I couldn't just take his word for it. I had 314 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 1: to go out there and see, you know, does it 315 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: really you know, do I have to actually take the 316 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: route that he's talking about to get out there? Does 317 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: he know what he's talking about? Does it make sense? 318 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: Or you know, could this be made up? So I 319 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: think going out to the scene also will help you 320 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 1: evaluate the validity of someone's information. The other thing, and 321 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: probably you know what you were talking about initially is 322 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: kind of being able to get into that mindset of 323 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: the offender. And you know, that was probably the primary 324 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: reason for me to go in some cases to visit 325 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: some of the scenes multiple times, because I just wanted 326 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: to be out there at different times of the day. 327 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: I wanted to be out there to see what it 328 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: sounded like, what the you know, activity level was like, 329 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: who else could see me when I was out there, 330 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: just to try to kind of put myself in the 331 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: mindset what happened here? You know, why did the victims 332 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: stop here? You know, how did they connect? What could 333 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: have caused the victim to stop on this deserted road? 334 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: Did the offender user ruse? Was it a blitz attack? Like? 335 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: You know, running through all those different possibilities is easier 336 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: when you're there and you're inside the environment. And to 337 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: your point, we had a cold case where the police 338 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: report said the car was in an open area when 339 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: it was set on fire, trying to hide the initial crime. Well, 340 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: you know, in your head, to me an open area, 341 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: are you talking about a football field, and is the 342 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: car in the middle of it on fire where nobody 343 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: would have seen the smoke or notice the car? Is 344 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: it surrounded by woods? You know? Well, when I drove 345 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: to it, I'm in a residential area, and I mean 346 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: there's house after house, like really close together. When we 347 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: get to the spot where the car was found, it's 348 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: literally like a double driveway, and I'm like, this ain't 349 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: an area. This is like a small clearing, you know. 350 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: And so again it completely flipped who I thought the 351 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: perpetrator was because this person drove there because they knew 352 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: that spot and they knew where to run to get 353 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: back to a house. So in that regard, it changed everything. 354 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: This was not a way out of the way dumping 355 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: ground that a lot of people use. This was a 356 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: quick spot that I could get back to Mama's house. 357 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: One thing, and this is another reason for the Legend series. 358 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: But you are absolutely brilliant at utilizing resources, and you 359 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: do so many smart things, like you use somebody to 360 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: help you create a timeline that includes documents from law enforcement, 361 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: Department of Corrections, employment history, vehicle registration, address history. Can 362 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: you tell us who you use and how that came about. 363 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: My two go to places for getting timelines done was 364 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: the FBI, so the ViCAP unit, they were fantastic at 365 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: putting together really comprehensive timelines, and the National Center for 366 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: Missing Exported Children. If it was a you know, a 367 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: crime that involved a missing child or an abductive child, 368 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: they were just absolutely fantastic because you know, they can 369 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: pull those journal searches and offline searches going back to 370 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. Whatever information you can provide them they can 371 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: incorporate into the timeline. So you know, they don't have 372 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: access to your local law enforcement databases, you know, RMS 373 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: systems and things like that. They can incorporate what you've 374 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: already compiled with the resources that they've got access too. 375 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: But again, for somebody that's been a detective about a 376 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: week and a half, that's something for them to have 377 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: in their toolbox. Yeah. Absolutely, that maybe they don't realize 378 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: the National Center can do. And you talk about you know, 379 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: VYCAP and sake, I mean, you utilize every single thing 380 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: and I have one mantra. I have several, but I 381 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: have one that says every tool on every case, every time. Yes, absolutely, 382 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: you're the master at that I'm telling you. Look, I mean, 383 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,719 Speaker 1: here's the thing. It's like nobody knows it all, nobody 384 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: has the answers to it all. And so I think 385 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: that you know, the best way to be successful in 386 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: this business is to have a really good rolodex or 387 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 1: in this case, you know, a really good contact list 388 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: on your phone of people you can call people that 389 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 1: you know that they know their business. They can help 390 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: you do whatever it is that you need to get done, 391 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: because you know you can't do it all yourself. So 392 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: tell us about the John Doe warrant. This is another 393 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: thing that you did a couple of times that I 394 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: thought everybody needs to hear that and just be reminded. 395 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: It always surprises me when I talk with one perstman 396 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: and you know, I end up talking with detectives and 397 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: there are still people that are not familiar with John 398 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: Doe warrants. Basically, it's a warrant that is something to 399 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: stop the statute of limitations on a case. So it's 400 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: a case where you've developed probable cause to make an arrest. 401 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: You just don't know who the person is, but you 402 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: have their DNA profile. So instead of John Smith going on, 403 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: you know, as the name of the person being charged. 404 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: It's John Doe with their DNA profile listed in the 405 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: John Doe warrant. And that warrant just stops the statute 406 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: of limitations so that if later on down the road 407 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: the person is finally identified through DNA or other means, 408 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: they can be charged even if the statute of limitations 409 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: has run out. And that's the thing that I want 410 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: young detectives to hear. It stops the statue of limitations 411 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: from running out. Another thing that happened with you. You 412 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: find out that the Department of Corrections gets DNA from 413 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: inmates upon release, not upon entry. Now a lot of 414 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: people would learn that and go, God, that's truly not 415 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: a great plan. Somebody ought to do something about that. 416 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: But when you hear about it, you go, hey, that's 417 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: not really a great plan. I'm going to do something 418 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, tell us about what happened then. Yeah. 419 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: So it actually was not Department of Corrections. So this 420 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: is so strange, but it's actually like Department of Social 421 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: and Health Services is what it's called in Washington State, 422 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: and they run the Special Commitment Center. And so for 423 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: people not familiar with what that is, there are twenty 424 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: two states, and that includes DC and the federal I 425 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: guess twenty states plus DC and the federal government that 426 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: have civil commitment laws. And what that means is someone 427 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: who is deemed to be a sexually violent predator can 428 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: be detained civilly after their prison sentence. And in Washington 429 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: were I believe the first state to enact a civil 430 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: commitment sexual predator law back in nineteen ninety. So basically 431 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: what that means is that we have this island, it's 432 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: called McNeil Island. There used to be a prison there 433 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: and the prison has long since been abandoned and now 434 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: they just have the Special Commitment Center, which is where 435 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: they house these individuals who are sexual predators. And these 436 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: guys have and I say guys because I think there's 437 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: one female out there and the rest are males. They've 438 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: all either been convicted of sex offenses or they are 439 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: being detained out there. You know, actually, I would be 440 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: shocked if there was anybody out there that hasn't already 441 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: been convicted of at least one sex offense. But basically 442 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: these guys are the worst or the worst. I mean, 443 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: they've they've been deemed too dangerous to be let out 444 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: into society after serving their prison sentence, and so they 445 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: get they have to go through a trial and if 446 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: they are if they're found to be to meet the 447 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: legal requirements as an SVP, they get detained out there 448 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: indefinitely and they're they're basically considered residents. They're not considered 449 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: inmates or anything like that. And that program is run 450 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: by DSHS Department of Social and Health Services. So I 451 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,959 Speaker 1: happened to just stumble across this information on accident. I 452 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: was working on a cold case back in twenty eleven 453 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: and I was talking to someone from the Department of 454 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: Corrections who was assisting me on a particular case, and 455 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: I just for whatever reason, was like, Hey, just out 456 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: of curiosity, do all the guys at the Special Commitment 457 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: Center have their DNA and CODUS? And it turned out 458 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: that the answer was no, and they didn't have a 459 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: policy to collect from existing offenders basically once they got 460 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: there from DC. I don't know if it was assumed 461 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: that they had already provided their DNA while in prison, 462 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: but their policy was to collect it upon release. Well, okay, 463 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: some of those guys will never get released. In fact, 464 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: I would say a lot of them, if not most, 465 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: of them will never get released, some of them die 466 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: out there, and you know they're not collecting their DNA 467 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: at that point, so you know, there was this whole 468 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,360 Speaker 1: like missed opportunity, and you know, the thought process was, well, 469 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: I mean, they're detained, they're not going anywhere, and they're 470 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: not hurting anybody out here, and not even conceptualizing that 471 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: these guys could be responsible for unsolved crimes. Correct. It 472 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: was a fight. It took me a couple of years 473 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: to advocate and lobby, and you know, I had to 474 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: bring more people in from the Attorney General's office to 475 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: kind of light of fire to get them to collect 476 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: the samples from from these guys. And they were about 477 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: forty offenders out there that had never provided and some 478 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: of them had been out there since the center opened, 479 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: since they started the project back in the early nineties. 480 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: So you know, those guys concerned to me the most 481 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 1: because those are the guys that are you know, sort 482 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: of like operating. They were operating during that golden age 483 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: of the serial killer, you know, back in the seventies 484 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: and eighties and early nineties. After finally getting all those 485 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: samples collected, there was a hit to one of the 486 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: guys out there to a rape and murder from nineteen eighty, 487 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: So that was really exciting. And you know, the detective 488 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: that had been working on that case, he had probably 489 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: collected a couple of dozen DNA reference samples from suspects 490 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: on the case. He had been working the case for 491 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: like twelve years, I think, And this guy's name never 492 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: appeared anywhere in the case file. I mean, he never 493 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: would have connected him at all. And that's unusual because 494 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: most of the time their name is in there somewhere 495 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,479 Speaker 1: random complete stranger. And this was a home invasion. I mean, 496 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: I'm talking. You know, he didn't kick the door open, 497 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: but he knocked on her door. She opened it, and 498 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: he forced his way in complete strangers. Pretty frightening. And 499 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:24,479 Speaker 1: this guy had a just a really horrific history of rapes, 500 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: and you know, he admitted to lots of other crimes 501 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: that I think sometimes police don't take that seriously, like 502 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: indecent exposure. I don't remember all the numbers, but a 503 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: lot of different rapes that he was never linked to. 504 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: And peeping Tom, and you know those are the guys 505 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: like when I hear the peeping tom and the guy 506 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: exposed himself of those guys make the hair on the 507 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: back of my next stand up. Agreed, I hate the 508 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: term peep and tall. We all know in this business 509 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: that's not what they're doing. No, and here's one thing 510 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: I want people to understand. You mentioned that sometimes perpetrators 511 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: die before they release from prison. But I think it's 512 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: important for people to know that there was a couple 513 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: of inmates that did die and their DNA had not 514 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: been taken, but you were not deterred. Again, Yeah, I mean, 515 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: y'all want to talk about the white hat is coming 516 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,719 Speaker 1: and the good guys coming over the ridge again and again, 517 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: why don't you tell folks what you did with a 518 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: couple of the guys that had died out there on 519 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: that island. I was able to get autopsy samples, so 520 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: on some of those guys. In most states, if somebody 521 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: dies in prison, you know, there's a requirement to have 522 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: an autopsy, so law enforcement should know that that is 523 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: a place to look for. You know, a reference sample 524 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: is you know, if somebody was an inmate who died 525 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: in a state prison, there should be some evidence collected 526 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: during the autopsy that could provide a DNA reference sample. 527 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, in this case, I think I was able 528 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: to get four or five blood cards from these guys 529 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: who also died, you know, at the Special Commitment Center, 530 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: who did have autopsies, so you know, we were able 531 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: to get them into Kodas for the purpose of solving 532 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: cold cases even though they were done. Something I've noticed 533 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: about you is every time you have a success, it's 534 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: not like you just dropped back and take a vacation 535 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: and ride that out for a couple of years. You're 536 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: not one of those detectives that says, hey, remember what 537 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: I did twenty years ago. Because even with all of 538 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: these successes, you go right to the untested rape kits. 539 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: And you said something in chapter thirteen that cracked me up, 540 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: because this is when you want to know if somebody's 541 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: a veteran detective when she has a quote that tell 542 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: us what you said when you said, speaking of you know, 543 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: like perpetrators, I didn't see Oh yeah, yeah, I didn't 544 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: see shit. I don't know shit, and I didn't do shit. 545 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: Say it again, I don't know shit, I didn't see shit, 546 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: and I didn't do shit. That's when you know she's 547 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: a veteran and she's absolutely right. So when you come 548 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: across somebody like that. Again, you kind of zero win 549 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: on them, don't you, and say, I gotta I gotta 550 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: talk to him one more time, you know, you would think. 551 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: But I kind of got to the point where, yeah, 552 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: there were some people that it was fairly easy to 553 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: read them, I think with that Michelle Welton Jennifer Baston case. Though, 554 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: it got to be that there were so many good 555 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: looking suspects in the case, like you'd read their criminal history, 556 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, you'd run them up and see what they've 557 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: been up to since then, and you know, one after 558 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: the other, you'd think, oh, this has to be the guy. 559 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,959 Speaker 1: You know, sexual psychopath, escape from the mental hospital. You know, 560 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: no DNA collected, and blah blah blah, blah blah, and 561 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: one after the other they were eliminated. So it got 562 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: to a point where it was I was pretty frustrated, 563 00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: and I really didn't think that collecting DNA samples going 564 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: to solve it. My honest evaluation by the time I 565 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: retired from the police department in twenty eighteen was that 566 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: the guy was probably either dead or he was sitting 567 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: in prison somewhere in some state, and nobody had collective 568 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: as DNA because I just could not believe that somebody 569 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: who had committed these two horrific murders, sexually motivated murders 570 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: of children would just be out walking the street. But 571 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened. I mean, it's baffling. You would 572 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: think mathematically they would be in prison for something else. Well, 573 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about chapter eleven. 574 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: I saved this on purpose because here's the quote. Now, 575 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: I want y'all to hear me. What do you mean 576 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy's DNA isn't Incodus tell us about that day? Wow? Yeah, 577 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: so many things to say about Ted. Kind of shocking, right, 578 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: Like who would believe that I had to literally stop 579 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: reading for a second, and I have one to have 580 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: a laughing attack, And I have wanted to call and 581 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: make sure I've got a case right now that I 582 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: wasn't even sure somebody could put into CODAS. So I 583 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: made a phone call immediately and listen. Sure enough, because 584 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: I didn't take the DNA, so I didn't have the 585 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 1: sample to put into CODAS, but another investigator from another 586 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: jurisdiction did, and I called and sure enough it was 587 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 1: not in CODAS. So because I was reading your book, 588 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: I stopped immediately and made sure. So thank you for that. 589 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, appreciate you because I was like, surely 590 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: everybody isn't thinking the other person did it, right, And 591 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: that's what happened here. You've got an investigator in my department, 592 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: you've got me, you've got the DA's investigator, you've got 593 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: another jurisdiction, and everybody just assumed the other folks had 594 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: done it. And that's you know, that's why we have 595 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: this entire purpose area under the Sexual Assault Kit Initiative 596 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 1: right now to fund this very issue on a national level, 597 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: so any law enforcement agency in the country can get 598 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: funding from Department of j just to address this particular 599 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: issue of collecting DNA samples from convicted offenders who slipped 600 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: through the cracks, and there are every state has thousands, 601 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: if not tens of thousands of them. When y'all read 602 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: what she did, it will knock you out. And I'm 603 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: not going to tell you it would. It would be 604 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: one of the most interesting things you've read in a 605 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: long time. And again, when I tell you, Lindsay Wade, 606 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: don't quit, she don't quit. Doesn't matter what the obstacle is, 607 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 1: doesn't matter what while somebody built doesn't matter who tells 608 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: her no. And this was one of those things. When 609 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: I read it, I'm like, hmm, I'm not only a 610 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: huge fan, but this person is going to be in 611 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: my zone seven if I have anything to do about 612 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,760 Speaker 1: it immediately, because I just like the way you work 613 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: and I like the way you operate. And there's not 614 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: enough accolades I can say about you and the work 615 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: that you have done. There's just not well. I mean, 616 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: I greatly appreciate, it's just not so I wanted to 617 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: talk about chapter fifteen for sec get in the last 618 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: words that you say. I may never respond to another 619 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: crime scene, but seeking justice will always be in my DNA. 620 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: I know we all dream, we all talk about year 621 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: five into this business. When I retire, you know what 622 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: I'm going to do and put in the badge in 623 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: the drawer, so to speak. Tell us about the retirement, 624 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: tell us about how you are, in fact still seeking 625 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: justice for people. Well, you know, it's been a long road, 626 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: and as much as I've tried to step away from it, 627 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: you know, for my own sanity and probably mental health, 628 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: I'm always drawn to it. You know, I can't get 629 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: away from it at Geryl, whether I want to or not. 630 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: You know, I spent twenty one years as a police officer, 631 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: and you know that's all I wanted to do. I mean, 632 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: I knew I wanted to be a cop. I wanted 633 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: to work for Tacoma PDE. I mean, there was no 634 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: doubt in my mind. It was like, no one's getting 635 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: in my way, like it's going to happen. And you know, 636 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: after twenty one years, you know, I just I did. 637 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: I'm kind of done. I was burned out. I knew 638 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: I just needed a different challenge and something else. I'm 639 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 1: kind of a creative, you know, kind of a person, 640 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: so I have to have things that exercise my brain 641 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: or I get bored. You know. I decided that the 642 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: opportunity at the Attorney General's Office was too good for 643 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,320 Speaker 1: me to pass up. They had just gotten a Sexual 644 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: Assault Kit Initiative grant, and so I was going to 645 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: be able to come in on the ground floor and 646 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: help create the whole team and you know, build the 647 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: program from the ground up. And so I thought, well, 648 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: this is another way for me to contribute. I'm not 649 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: going to be you know, going out to scenes anymore, 650 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: and you know, being the lead detective anymore. But this 651 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: is still a great way for me to share my 652 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: knowledge and expertise with other people, help agencies with their cases, 653 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: and still make a difference. So, you know, working as 654 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: an investigator for the Attorney General's Office was fantastic, you know, 655 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: and I did that for I think it was about 656 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: four and a half five years. You know, I ended 657 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: up applying to my current job now at RTI, and 658 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: RTI is it's a global nonprofit, but they are a 659 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: government contractor, and so RTI has a lot of government 660 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: contracts and grants that we administer to include the Sexual 661 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: Assault get initiative. So now I'm working on that project, 662 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 1: but on the national level. Where As before I was 663 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: working at the state level as a site, you know, 664 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: a statewide site. Now I'm working and I primarily am 665 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: asked to sort of be a subject matter expert on 666 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: lawfully o DNA and so you know, that's kind of 667 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: my focus area as of right now. It's different than 668 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: being you know, an active law enforcement officer, but I 669 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 1: still really really enjoy being able to you know, impart information, 670 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: share information, generate ideas. You know, that creative side of 671 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: me is you know, still always there and I'm you know, 672 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: I'm still the person that watches the you know, the 673 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 1: Netflix documentary about some case and I'm like taking notes 674 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: and taking pictures of the TV with my phone so that, 675 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: you know, we need to, like, we need to look 676 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: into this guy. Do we know if it's DNA is 677 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,720 Speaker 1: in CODIS Like? I don't. That probably should be my tagline, 678 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: this is DNA and CODIS like, because there are so 679 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: many of these people that just slip on through. And 680 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: you know, genetic genealogy is fantastic and it's obviously changed 681 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: the game for solving crime, but how many of those 682 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: cases should have been solved with a CODIS hit. Yep. 683 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: And you can't turn it off. I mean you can't 684 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: stop who you are instinctively and just how you're describing 685 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 1: how you watch TV. I get it. I get it completely. 686 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll hear something about another jurisdiction in another state 687 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: and I still feel compelled to call them and just say, hey, 688 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: I know you don't know me, but if he thought 689 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: of this, you had such a full circle moment with 690 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: the child from your community that was killed, and then 691 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: you solving it when you were grown, I mean, I 692 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: just think that is an unbelievable twist of fate that was, 693 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: in my opinion, meant to be. Yeah, I'll tell you 694 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: something I think you'll find pretty cool. With Ginger's murder, 695 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: my sister's friend Joe told me years later how they 696 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 1: caught the people that killed her. So there were three 697 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 1: people that went in that murdered Ginger and her mother, 698 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: and they stole things out of the family's safe in 699 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: the wall of the living room, and one of the 700 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: things they took were a ton of one dollar bills 701 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: that had never been in circulation that were nineteen sixty three, 702 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: Joseph W. Barr notes, And the detectives in each point 703 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: put the word out everywhere, you know, Tennessee, South Carolina, Florida. 704 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: If y'all see these, let snow well. There was a 705 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: clerk in Florida that, because they had never been in circulation, 706 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: thought they were like counterfeit. She wasn't sure they were 707 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: even real money. So she called a detective friend of 708 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: hers who went over there and said, let me see 709 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,879 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. So he calls these point and says, hey, 710 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: we've got some. And then you know, they got the 711 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: video of the guy that used it, and he was 712 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 1: a cousin of one of the killers, and that's how 713 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 1: they were called. So again, you never know. And the 714 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: way you do, you call everybody, You let everybody know 715 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 1: the information, You include everybody, and that's how you get 716 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: stuff done. I mean crazy, right, just something almost like 717 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 1: a fluke. And this guy thought, man, we're in another state. 718 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,919 Speaker 1: You know they did. And I'm gonna get my cousin 719 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: to use it because he's not even on video anywhere. 720 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: He wasn't in the car, or he wasn't even there. 721 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,839 Speaker 1: They'll never suspect him of anything. That's just good police work. 722 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: It's all there is to it, and going that extra 723 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:01,879 Speaker 1: step exactly. But you know all about that. So I'm 724 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: going to end Zone seven the way that I always 725 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: do with somebody from my Zone seven. And tonight's quote 726 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: comes from Tray Sergeant Knine, expert, and she says, have 727 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: no regrets. Change the question mark into an exclamation point. 728 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: One person can change the world. And I think that 729 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: sums up Detective Lindsay Wade perfectly. I'm Cheryl McCollum and 730 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: this is Zone seven.