1 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to Okay Epp Daily with 2 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: me your girl Daniel Moody, having prerecorded from the home bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to be bringing you conversations that I've 4 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: had with Imagine twenty two hundred, which is a fixed 5 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: climate fiction contest, with some of the finalists of that contest. 6 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,959 Speaker 1: And let me tell you a little bit about Imagine 7 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: twenty two hundred and recognizes stories that envision the next 8 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty years of equitable climate progress, imagining 9 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: intersectional worlds of abundance, adaptation, reform, and hope. And I'm 10 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: bringing you these conversations as a way to inspire, enlighten, 11 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: and provide a bit of hope. I think too often, 12 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: as you all know from listening to me on a 13 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: regular basis, that we have a tendency to dwell right 14 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: in the dystopia, the cruelty, the anger, the violence that 15 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: is being visited upon this country and our communities. On 16 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: a regular basis, it is daunting and exhausting to think 17 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: about how far this country has fallen and how we 18 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: are at a place where the climate crisis is no 19 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: longer impending. We're living it we're living it. Every hurricane season, 20 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: every tornado season, every fire season. You know, in the 21 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: beginning of November, which November, as folks know as my 22 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: birthday month, my birthday month, shout out to scorpios. It 23 00:01:55,040 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: has been consistently in the seventies for the last several years. 24 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: That's not normal. I don't remember a time while I 25 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: was growing up on Long Island that November was a 26 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: time for sleeveless tops and you know, an extension of 27 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: rose season. And yet it has become increasingly the norm 28 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: over the last several years as this earth, as our 29 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: planet continues to warm, and we have those that are 30 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: in power in this country and around the globe that, 31 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: because of greed, refused to do anything of note to 32 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: fix it because their issue is just like, oh why 33 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: fix it when we couldn't make money? Now, who cares? 34 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: We won't be around forever and at least we can, 35 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, sit on top of our billions and think 36 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: that that's going to protect us as the tsunamis and 37 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: monsoons and you know, hurricanes and fires takeover. So what 38 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: I love about imagine twenty two hundred and the authors 39 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: that we have been and are profiling is their stories 40 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: are not absent of the reality of where this world 41 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: is or how we have gotten into this world that 42 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: they have created, but it is about the hopefulness that 43 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: comes from a place of destruction. Frankly, and so this 44 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: next author, TK Rex, whose story I just enjoyed so much. 45 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: I've enjoyed all of their stories, and we are linking 46 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: to them in the show notes section so that everyone 47 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: can click on the link and either read or just 48 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: sit back and listen to some of these stories, because 49 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: they really do just take you away. And I think 50 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: that it's really important for us to find good, hopeful, 51 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: abundant ways of removing ourselves from the present and allowing 52 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: our selves to be in a dreamscape, to be in 53 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: a RESTful space where we can imagine other worlds, where 54 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: we can imagine alternatives to the obstacles that we're facing. 55 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: So Tk Rex, their story is entitled A Holdout in 56 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: the Northern California designated Wildcraft Zone and inquisitive and thoughtful 57 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: drone responsible for protecting a forest ecosystem stumbles upon a 58 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: surprise deep in the woods. And in my conversation with 59 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: Tk we talk about their story and we talk about 60 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: the hopefulness. That is a part of it that makes 61 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: us believe that, Yeah, clearly we are still living at 62 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: a time of deforestation. Clearly we are living at a 63 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: time where we're readily polluting the waters and emitting so 64 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: much carbon into the air that we're alternating how Earth spins. 65 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: Remember I shared that story and that was a true one. 66 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: But in her story, it is also not just about 67 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: the damage that humankind has done to the planet, but 68 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: how humans have the ability to also be the antidote 69 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: right to what is ailing us. So I hope that 70 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: you will enjoy this interview as much as I did 71 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: with author tk Rex and going over her wonderful story 72 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: A Holdout in Northern California Designated Wildcraft Zone And if 73 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: you are interested in reading the full twenty twenty two collection, 74 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: head to gris dot org slash climate and learn more 75 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: or click the link in the show notes. Coming up 76 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: next my conversation with tk Rex, Folks. I am very 77 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: excited to welcome to wok F Daily for the first 78 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: time story writer author tk Rex, who is the author 79 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: of A Holdout in Northern California Designated Wildcraft Zone. They 80 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: are part of Imagine twenty two hundred Fixed Climate Fictions Contest, 81 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: which recognizes stories that envision the next one hundred and 82 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: eighty years of equitable climate progress, imagining intersectional worlds of abundance, adaptation, reform, 83 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: and hope. TK thank you so much for making the 84 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: time to join woke F I loved your story for 85 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: so many reasons, but I want to give you before 86 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: we dig in, give you the opportunity to tell folks 87 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: about the themes the theme of your story. Yeah, So 88 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: the central premise is there's a whole suath of northern 89 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: California that's in designated a wildcraft zone for like both 90 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: carbon sequestration and like potentially food and materials production from wildcrafting. 91 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: And it's managed by an AI, by a network intelligence 92 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: that has like individual drones that have their own individual 93 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: they're individually intelligent. So the main character point of view 94 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: character in the story is one of these drones, and 95 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: it encounters a woman in the woods who shouldn't be 96 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: there because everybody should have left and gone to the cities. 97 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: By that and the theme of like who belongs in nature, 98 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: I think is a great question in this story and 99 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: related stories that I've been working on, And what does 100 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: it mean to be a part of the landscape and 101 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: to be responsible for the landscape. I loved it so 102 00:07:54,080 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: much because one, I want to get into the lead character, 103 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: July and her story. But you know what I loved 104 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: about it, and what I love about this entire series 105 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: is the fact that all of science fiction, at not 106 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: all of it, but a large swath of science fiction, 107 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: a large swath of futurism is d is steeped in 108 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: dystopia and the idea that our future does not have 109 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: to be so bleak, our future doesn't have to be 110 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: about robots taking over and enslaving humankind, or that there 111 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: were scorched earth in sky and were forced underground. And 112 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: so what I loved about this was when the drone 113 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: is introduced as this rewilding drone, And so I just 114 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: wanted you to talk a little bit about the imagery 115 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: and the idea around rewilding and kind of what had 116 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: happened in your story in Northern California to kind of 117 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: force this rewilding. Yeah, oh man, that's a whole So 118 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: I started with years ago. There had been like a 119 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: whole novel that I wrote that's in this world that 120 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: takes place later on the timeline that ended up being 121 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: another story that's coming out in January, and this is 122 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: like a little bit earlier in that timeline because this 123 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: period of time where like the rewilding is an active 124 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: thing and people are still like holding out, was so interesting. 125 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: But the the events that led up to that have 126 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: changed since I first came up with the idea. The 127 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: original idea was like, oh, what if like we rewilded 128 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: everything and everybody just lived in the cities, And wouldn't 129 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: that be like the most ecological like friendly thing to do? 130 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: And this was years ago, And the more I dug 131 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: into that, the more I realized that actually was like 132 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: deeply problematic and there're actually been like a whole history 133 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: of that, you know, which I knew a lot of that, 134 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: Like I grew up like um next door to the 135 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: Navajo Nation, and um, like had I knew how people 136 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: had been relocated in the past, but like I hadn't 137 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: connected that to like what might have happened in ecology. 138 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: And I worked for the National Park Service for a summer, 139 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: you know too, and I didn't I didn't know the 140 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: whole history of how they had moved people out to 141 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: make parks, and that was kind of what I was 142 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: recreating and my so called utopia, and I was like, 143 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: wait a minute, like I have to rethink that a 144 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: little bit, if I'm going to write this, and my 145 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: mom also totally called me on it, so um, I 146 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: love that. Yeah. So at first I had to like 147 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: try and come up with some kind of crazy science 148 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: fiction scenario where like that would have had to happen. 149 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: And I had some ideas, Oh well, maybe like global 150 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: politics changed so radically that like the the like other 151 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: like nations that had finally become like fully industrialized decided 152 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: to punish like the Western nations for all of the 153 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: pollution that they've done. And I was like, I don't 154 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: know if that's ever going to happen. And then I 155 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: started to see these little pieces like come in real 156 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: life of like all of the fires we have in 157 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: the West, ye and how people were entire cities were 158 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: burning town, you know, and like people had to move 159 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: in the cities because like their rural areas were no 160 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: longer safe. And that's not that's that's still not something 161 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: that's like extremely common, but it keeps happening. And I 162 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: find that like every time I go staying like and 163 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: Airbnb to get out of the city. It's in an 164 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: area that's how a disaster recently, and I'm like, is 165 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: this just the trend now? Is this happening? And it's 166 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: weird seeing it and you can see I so I 167 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: have this, I have this timelines and this isn't exactly 168 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: in the story all, but like the timeline that leads 169 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: up to that is actually one that I'm seeing playing now, 170 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: and it's it's starting to look more and more realistic 171 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: where rural areas are no longer at tenable places to 172 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: live in the West because they just want to want 173 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: to ensure them. The infrastructure is going to start to 174 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: fall apart as the population gets smaller and smaller, and 175 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: then after a while there might even be like incentives 176 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: to move people in closer to the cities so that 177 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: we can maintain infrastructure and a sustainable way, and like 178 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: that will be maybe good for some people, it will 179 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: probably suck for a lot of people, you know, people 180 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: who will never move. You you say that, and I 181 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: you know, it conjures all of the things that images 182 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: of things that we've discussed on this show, which is 183 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: you know, Mississippi's infrastructure in Jackson at Jackson Mississippi and 184 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: not having any clean water with the breakdown of you know, 185 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: factories being sent abroad. And so you I remember going 186 00:12:54,840 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: to Detroit, Michigan for the first time, and it was it. 187 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: And now in my mind, I guess I would call 188 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: what was happening to the buildings and the areas that 189 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: had been deserted because of people leaving in order to 190 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: go and find work, because the the entire UH city 191 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: infrastructure had just crumbled. Right then if there are no 192 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: people that are there, then they're going to be forced out. 193 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: And there was like I mean entire ivy plants that 194 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: had taken over what was formerly a library, you know, 195 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: and trees in in now growing up inside of a 196 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: fire station like it was. It was so it was 197 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: so wild, you know, like wild to see. But then 198 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: also what had been there prior to development, right prior 199 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: to the creation of these of these towns and cities 200 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: you had to flatten right wildlife UH and and land 201 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: in order to in order to allow for communities UH 202 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 1: to grow UM. And so when I you know, when 203 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 1: I was, when I was listening to your your peace, 204 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: it was conjuring those memories of of going to Detroit 205 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: and kind of leaving feeling very um, very very much 206 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: grief stricken, right Like it was one what what we 207 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: have done to communities that then have no choice but 208 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: to leave a home that they've known, and then what 209 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: we've done to nature? Uh, and nature we wanting to 210 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: reclaim it's its space. Um. In in your story, I 211 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: also thought that it was amazing that UM, the Rangers, 212 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: as the Drone is, is kind of in communication with 213 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: the network to get a sense of how much time 214 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: uh they have in order to convince the lone woman 215 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: that they have stumbled upon to leave to head into her. 216 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: What you wrote was like humans natural ecosystem, So I 217 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: wanted you to to speak a little bit about like 218 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: what this idea of humans natural ecosystem is. Yeah, So 219 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: in the story, the the Drone network has this idea 220 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: that humans belong in the city where they're like that's 221 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: their designated zone, and so they think of it as 222 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: like one of the many ecosystems that they tend and 223 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: that's the one where like the humans should be going 224 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: so that they can be together and have all their 225 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: schools and hospitals and electricity and stuff like that that 226 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: they need. UM and the Rangers are sort of this 227 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: separate entity. And I don't want to give away like 228 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: the whole story. No, no, no, no no, But the 229 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: Rangers are sort of this separate entity, and you believe 230 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: it's very much like their purview to say who can 231 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: and can't be outside of the city walls UM and 232 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: the relationship between those two entities. I think it's interesting 233 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: and I won't give anything away because it's splured a 234 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: little bit in the story and a little bit more 235 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: and some of the other stories that they're writing in 236 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: that world. U remind me what the question was. No, 237 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: I just just like this idea that essentially humans don't 238 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: really belong in this idea of nature, right, like that 239 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: that humans essentially because of the way that we have 240 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: mowed over nature in order to create schools and hospitals 241 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: and build homes at all of these things. That it 242 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: that it's almost as if by the drones and the 243 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: network's perspective, they're like, Oh, you don't belong in this 244 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: space because essentially you ruin it. Yeah. Yeah, I was 245 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: absolutely coming from at the time when it first came 246 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: up with like the some of the earliest world building 247 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: for this UM it's around twenty fifteen I was taking 248 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: an ecology class actually over in Philadelphia, and I was 249 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: spending all the time on the train, and so I 250 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: wrote the very first version of Something in This World 251 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: on a train thinking about that ecology class and everything, 252 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: Like I had learned and my parents are both en biomentalists, 253 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, and had I had grown up very much, 254 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: like very close to nature and like in rural areas 255 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: and like taught that, you know, the earth like the guy. 256 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: I knew what the guy a hypothesis was when it 257 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: was like seven, you know what I mean, Like I 258 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: had I had this whole personal relationship with nature, but 259 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: all around me I was seeing like how destructive humans 260 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: had been to nature and the early premise where oh, no, 261 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: we should be separating everybody from this so we can 262 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: let the land hell or something like that. Like I 263 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: had this idea early on that that was probably a 264 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: good thing, that he would should just like step all 265 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: the way outside of this and just do our own 266 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: thing for a little while and let nature recover. And 267 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: then when I started the moment, I started actually digging 268 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: into that idea, I found that now there's the moment, 269 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: the moment I had to have a real setting and 270 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: not an imaginary setting. And I was like, it's going 271 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: to be northern California because I have spent the most 272 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 1: time there and I know the land the best, and 273 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: I want to learn more about the place I live 274 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: in too, you know, and so writing a book is 275 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: always a great way to learn new things. The moment, 276 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: I had to make it a specific place and get 277 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: into like, Okay, if we're going to do wildcrafting at 278 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 1: a city population level scale of the feed everybody and 279 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: have like native foods that don't need irrigation, what foods 280 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: are they going to be? So it's not easy to 281 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: find out, actually, Like I had to really get detailed 282 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: about it, Like I had to get books to read books, 283 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: you know. And my god, this is a book called 284 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: Tending the Wild that's all about like the different plants 285 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: that native Californians had used for. At the time it 286 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: was written, it was thought like maybe ten to twelve 287 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 1: thousand years and now I'm hearing like fourteen thousand years 288 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,959 Speaker 1: or maybe longer that people have been living in California 289 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:26,959 Speaker 1: are the place and the incredible detail to which we 290 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: have just the stuff that we have documented, which so 291 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: much was lost, you know, so much was lost, but 292 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: like just the things that we actually have documented historically 293 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: from that time, and like the traditions that remain and 294 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: the knowledge that remains in the indigenous communities is like, 295 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: it was mind blowing for me just how much California 296 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: had been a managed to landscape before colonialism. How like 297 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: every all these places that I think I know so well, 298 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: Like in California we have these like famous kind of 299 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: golden hills in the fall, all that grass, it's all 300 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: European grass. The Spanish came in and just restated everything 301 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: so they could have cattle and wow. Yeah, and the 302 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: way I mean, I think more and more people will 303 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: know this now. But like the fires that we have 304 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: are so bad in part because around the turn of 305 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: the last century, around like nineteen hundred dish there had 306 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: been a lot and stated to not allow any fires 307 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: in the state. And then include that includes the cultural 308 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: burning practices of indigenous people who were here, and it 309 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: turns out like they actually, yeah, they had been maintaining 310 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: like all of these regular burning patterns all over the state, 311 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: not just to prevent big, dangerous fires, but also because 312 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: like so many of the plants here benefited from that, 313 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: and so many of the plants here, we're able to 314 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: be more productive because of that, for like all kinds 315 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: of complicated reasons, like new shoots growing in a specific 316 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: way after a fire so that you could use them 317 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: for arrows or building or construction or baskets. And then 318 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 1: like oak trees because acorns were such a staple food here, 319 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: and we have so many different kinds of oak trees, 320 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: but so many of them that underbrush. When you burn 321 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: that underbrush under the oak tree, the oak tree is 322 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: going to be fine, especially if it's an old oak 323 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: tree and they live for so long, but that clears 324 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: out the pests that then get into the acorns when 325 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: like the harvests happened, so the acorn there's like an 326 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: acorn worm that gets into the acorns, But if you 327 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: burn all the leafletter under the tree, you don't get 328 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: as many acorn worms, and soad there's more acorns to teat. 329 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: And there's so many intricate little ways that it was managed, 330 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: and it was so it was so much richer even 331 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: than I imagined a science fictional version of it could 332 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: be in the future. When I actually look at and 333 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: read about the accounts of like how geese had darkened 334 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: the skies and their migration in California and how like 335 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: full of salmon the rivers had been. It was. It 336 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: was so far beyond like what I even imagined we 337 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: could build back up to in the future with like 338 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: AI that I was like, oh crap, my AI. They're 339 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: going to realize that too, you know what I mean, 340 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: And they're going to be like, hold on, were people 341 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: that for nature? But that's a that's a that's a 342 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: side flat that evolves in like an interesting way over 343 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: several different stories. That's incredible, honestly because I think that 344 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: so much, so much obviously has been lost, um in 345 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: indigenous culture, that colonization has wiped out right and and 346 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: and disallowed the history and the richness of those traditions 347 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: to really continue to permeate how we exist. Um. It's 348 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: like you, the idea about evolving into an industrialized nation, 349 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, wiped out any basis for the foundations like 350 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: those indigenous cultures and practices where the foundations of how 351 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: industry was built. And so the idea that we don't 352 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: actually intertwine and lift up what would allowed industry to 353 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: take place is kind of spelling our disaster and our demise. 354 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: That we are witnessing in every single historic fire season 355 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: that we've had, in every single you know, historic hurricane 356 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: that we are seeing. You know, one of the questions 357 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: that I have for you too is that quarantine in 358 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: COVID provided a really interesting time around the world. And 359 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: I remember, you know, in twenty twenty, as humans were 360 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: forced inside because of the rampant COVID nineteen virus, that 361 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: in Venice, dolphins had come back to the canal, that 362 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: there was like a regrowth in a lot of areas, 363 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: particularly in the waters, were becoming cleaner with just a 364 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: few months of removal of human activity. So it's almost 365 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: like for me, as I was listening to your story, 366 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: COVID provided a bit of a window into the impact 367 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: that our footprint has had on the environment, and that 368 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: the removal, even just for a small while, like the 369 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: earth will replenish itself and fairly and fairly rapidly. So 370 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: what are your what are your hopes tk that that 371 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: folks take not only from your story, but this this 372 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: reimagining of our future in a in an optimistic and 373 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: hopeful light. Yeah, I think firstly, I I thought that 374 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: dolphins were photoshop like there are so many days I 375 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: thought the dolphins though, Like I was like, that's really weird, 376 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: and I thought it was weird. But there are dolphins 377 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 1: in the Hudson in New York and that I swear 378 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: to God that that come in. So I to me, 379 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: I was just like potoshop that I knew there had 380 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: been some photoshops things in that whole trend. But yeah, no, 381 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: it is. It's real too, And um, I hear you. 382 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: I definitely, um, I definitely. You know have seen, We've 383 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: all seen how quickly nature can take back like a 384 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: space it's untended. There's I live in downtown San Francisco, 385 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: you know, surrounded by tall buildings, and there's a lot 386 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: right across the street from me that like I can't 387 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: see it from street level because there's a big like 388 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: black painted fence that people are always like having to 389 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: repaint every single day, And like, why not just let 390 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: it be a mural or something like, just let people 391 00:25:58,480 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: put art on it if it's just going to be 392 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: a CeNSE figures anyway. That's besides the point. From like 393 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: up a little bit higher, you can see in and 394 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: it's just filled with plants and how do they get there? 395 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: Like the wind? You know, the birds. I don't know, 396 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: but it's already this. You leave something untended and it's 397 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: going to rewild itself, that's for sure. But like with 398 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: what and like how how is that? How is whatever? 399 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: It's just the default going to play with the rest 400 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: of the ecosystem, especially with so many invasive species around everywhere. 401 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: And is it going to be something that's is the 402 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: fastest thing that comes back? Isn't necessarily the thing that's 403 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: going to be the most broadly like beneficial to the 404 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: existing ecosystem. And there's also you know, one of the 405 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: things that I kind of explore in this is in 406 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: this world is how can we have a rewilded landscape 407 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: that then is also use for us in a way 408 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: that helps keep that relationship sustainable? You know, something that 409 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: like parks back to we we historically as human beings 410 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: have had so so many ways to use everything in 411 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: our environments and like fulfill all of our needs, like 412 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: in like for crafting household items like baskets or you 413 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: know whatever, and and food and medicine. And my grandma 414 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: was an herbalist, so I was brought up like going 415 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: on walks with her if in the forest and the 416 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: Olympic Peninsula, and she would always point out like every 417 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: single plant and like its scientific name, and like what 418 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: the pioneers use it for and what the native people 419 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: to use it for. And so I grew up with 420 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: that knowledge of like, oh, all of these things are 421 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: inherently useful for us and need to be like both 422 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: like respected and taken care of and protected, you know, 423 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: and take all of them, you always leave some for 424 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: the next person. That kind of stuff is like what 425 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: I was raised with, you know, So I wanted to 426 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: put that in a story. Yeah, I mean, I hope 427 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: that not only your story, but the entire series um 428 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: Imagine twenty two hundred, that it prompts some hopefulness and 429 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 1: some light and possibility in people. That isn't this dark 430 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: and dystopian machine, you know, future, that nature can still 431 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: very much be a part and needs to be. Otherwise 432 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: we don't thrives as human beings. And you know, as 433 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,239 Speaker 1: as the Drone said to July and your story, you know, 434 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: as animals right like that that we were that we remember, 435 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: we remember that piece U t K. Thank you so 436 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: very much for making the time to join Woke a F. 437 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: I enjoy your story so very much. Folks, it will 438 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: be in the link in the description. The story is 439 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: entitled A Holdout in the Northern California Designated Wildcraft Zone 440 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: and it is part of Imagine twenty two hundred Fix 441 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: Climate Fiction Contest. Thank you, sha you. That is it 442 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: for me today. Dear friends on Woke a f as 443 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: always Power to the people and to all the people power, 444 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: Get woke and stay woke as fuck.