1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:21,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, broken record listeners, It's justin Richmond. We'll be 2 00:00:21,476 --> 00:00:24,756 Speaker 1: back with our regularly scheduled episode next week, but today 3 00:00:24,956 --> 00:00:27,396 Speaker 1: I'm bringing you a preview of a new show from Pushkin. 4 00:00:27,636 --> 00:00:30,276 Speaker 1: I think you're really going to like. It's called Story 5 00:00:30,276 --> 00:00:33,676 Speaker 1: of the Week with journalist Joel Stein. A lot of us, 6 00:00:33,756 --> 00:00:36,876 Speaker 1: myself included, wish we had the time and attention span 7 00:00:36,996 --> 00:00:40,196 Speaker 1: to leisurely pass through the latest and long form journalism. 8 00:00:40,236 --> 00:00:44,836 Speaker 1: But the reality is most of us don't. Joel Stein, however, does, 9 00:00:45,396 --> 00:00:49,156 Speaker 1: and is sharing his findings with all of us. Each week, 10 00:00:49,236 --> 00:00:52,996 Speaker 1: Joel chooses an article that fascinates him, convinces the writer 11 00:00:53,076 --> 00:00:55,476 Speaker 1: of said article to tell him all about it, and 12 00:00:55,516 --> 00:00:59,876 Speaker 1: then interrupts it perfectly good conversation by mostly talking about himself. 13 00:01:00,316 --> 00:01:02,516 Speaker 1: The story Joel covers on a given week might be 14 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:05,316 Speaker 1: one everyone is talking about, or it could be a 15 00:01:05,356 --> 00:01:08,716 Speaker 1: story that you missed, like the Vergess piece about a 16 00:01:08,836 --> 00:01:12,756 Speaker 1: rock groupie termed Hacker who had huge corporations at her mercy. 17 00:01:13,356 --> 00:01:15,956 Speaker 1: Either way, it'll always be a story you tell your 18 00:01:15,996 --> 00:01:18,836 Speaker 1: friends about, a story that sticks with you long after 19 00:01:18,876 --> 00:01:23,396 Speaker 1: you forget whatever headline you just doomscrolled through Today's story 20 00:01:23,596 --> 00:01:27,116 Speaker 1: about smoking hallucinogenic toads was written by Commone de Grief 21 00:01:27,556 --> 00:01:30,756 Speaker 1: for The New Yorker. A Mexican doctor turned to toad 22 00:01:30,756 --> 00:01:34,036 Speaker 1: poison to help cure himself of a crack addiction. The 23 00:01:34,156 --> 00:01:37,356 Speaker 1: doctor then talked about his experiences during a TEDx talk 24 00:01:37,476 --> 00:01:40,476 Speaker 1: at Burning Man, which started his career as a world's 25 00:01:40,556 --> 00:01:43,996 Speaker 1: leading proponent of the drug. All right, here's the clip 26 00:01:44,036 --> 00:01:46,316 Speaker 1: about the toad smoking doctor. I hope you enjoy it 27 00:01:46,396 --> 00:01:48,476 Speaker 1: as much as I did. You can hear the full 28 00:01:48,516 --> 00:01:51,196 Speaker 1: episode and more from Story of the Week wherever you 29 00:01:51,236 --> 00:01:58,676 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. The Story of the Week is The 30 00:01:58,916 --> 00:02:03,236 Speaker 1: Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads by command de Grief from 31 00:02:03,276 --> 00:02:11,956 Speaker 1: The New Yorker. Back in May, a friend of mine 32 00:02:11,956 --> 00:02:14,196 Speaker 1: invited me to a rich person's house in the Hollywood 33 00:02:14,276 --> 00:02:17,476 Speaker 1: Hills for one of these elite all day networking events. 34 00:02:18,276 --> 00:02:20,956 Speaker 1: I'd gone to dinner she'd organized before, and they were fun. 35 00:02:22,236 --> 00:02:24,156 Speaker 1: A few days before I was going to go, she 36 00:02:24,436 --> 00:02:27,836 Speaker 1: called me to give me some more details. It was 37 00:02:27,956 --> 00:02:32,636 Speaker 1: a mushroom party where we were going to take mushrooms 38 00:02:32,676 --> 00:02:34,676 Speaker 1: and then go home and somehow take care of our 39 00:02:34,716 --> 00:02:39,756 Speaker 1: kids after eating mushrooms. This seems to be happening all 40 00:02:39,796 --> 00:02:43,036 Speaker 1: the time. Over the last few years, psychedelics have become 41 00:02:43,116 --> 00:02:47,116 Speaker 1: weirdly mainstream. People I know go to mushroom parties, take 42 00:02:47,196 --> 00:02:50,436 Speaker 1: trips to South America to do ayahuasca and see couple's 43 00:02:50,436 --> 00:02:54,676 Speaker 1: therapists in which they bond while on psilocybin. Then there's 44 00:02:54,836 --> 00:02:59,436 Speaker 1: Toad Poison from the Sonoran Desert. Toad is the Mount 45 00:02:59,436 --> 00:03:02,556 Speaker 1: Everest of psychedelics. The trip can be as short as 46 00:03:02,596 --> 00:03:05,836 Speaker 1: a half an hour, but apparently it's so intense it 47 00:03:05,876 --> 00:03:09,396 Speaker 1: can wipe out your ego, leaving you all alone in 48 00:03:09,436 --> 00:03:12,756 Speaker 1: the empty void, kind of like hosting a new podcast 49 00:03:12,796 --> 00:03:16,796 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two. Nevertheless, celebrities like Joe Rogan and 50 00:03:16,836 --> 00:03:20,476 Speaker 1: Mike Tyson love Toad. You know, once I did, I 51 00:03:20,516 --> 00:03:23,076 Speaker 1: wanted to do it again and again and again, And 52 00:03:23,076 --> 00:03:25,356 Speaker 1: they say you shouldn't do it too much. Way, I gotta, 53 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:27,596 Speaker 1: you know, grasp, what's going on here? Why am I 54 00:03:27,636 --> 00:03:30,236 Speaker 1: feeling that? Why? Why did this? In a weird way? 55 00:03:30,316 --> 00:03:32,756 Speaker 1: Like humbled you. I don't think you should listen to 56 00:03:32,756 --> 00:03:34,676 Speaker 1: the people say you shouldn't you know too much. I 57 00:03:34,716 --> 00:03:36,036 Speaker 1: think you should do it as much as you want. 58 00:03:36,116 --> 00:03:38,356 Speaker 1: That's what I agree with, too. Yeah, I agree you 59 00:03:38,356 --> 00:03:41,596 Speaker 1: could handle it. Apparently the ego dissolution doesn't last so 60 00:03:41,676 --> 00:03:44,396 Speaker 1: long it keeps you from going on Joe Rogan. So 61 00:03:44,436 --> 00:03:46,116 Speaker 1: I was pretty excited when I saw a story in 62 00:03:46,116 --> 00:03:49,476 Speaker 1: The New York Are titled The Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads, 63 00:03:50,076 --> 00:03:55,636 Speaker 1: and I had a lot of questions. Writing is hard? 64 00:03:55,836 --> 00:03:59,156 Speaker 1: Who's got that kind of time when you're already busy 65 00:03:59,236 --> 00:04:01,916 Speaker 1: trying to be Joe Stein until it turns on the 66 00:04:02,116 --> 00:04:06,036 Speaker 1: mike me It twiddles enough because the journalist friend, who's 67 00:04:06,076 --> 00:04:11,156 Speaker 1: got in that jewel job? Single story? Just listen to 68 00:04:11,276 --> 00:04:22,076 Speaker 1: smart people speak conversation. Filming information is a story. The 69 00:04:22,156 --> 00:04:24,516 Speaker 1: story in The New Yorker was written by Command de Grief. 70 00:04:25,116 --> 00:04:28,156 Speaker 1: He's a South African journalist who often covers the illegal 71 00:04:28,196 --> 00:04:31,756 Speaker 1: trading of endangered animals like abalone, which is how he 72 00:04:31,796 --> 00:04:34,716 Speaker 1: found the Sonoran desert toad, which was being foraged for 73 00:04:34,756 --> 00:04:38,716 Speaker 1: its hallucinogenic properties. But that led him to a much 74 00:04:38,756 --> 00:04:42,716 Speaker 1: weirder story about the number one toad Guru. Okay, so 75 00:04:42,756 --> 00:04:46,956 Speaker 1: you heard about this Mexican doctor named Octavio Reddick who 76 00:04:46,996 --> 00:04:49,996 Speaker 1: had become like the guy you go to to smoke toad. 77 00:04:50,516 --> 00:04:52,636 Speaker 1: So he went down to meet him at his house 78 00:04:52,956 --> 00:04:56,876 Speaker 1: in Mexico, And so, first of all, can he describe 79 00:04:56,956 --> 00:04:59,516 Speaker 1: what he looked like and what he what he was 80 00:04:59,556 --> 00:05:05,196 Speaker 1: like to be around. Yeah, he is good looking. He's 81 00:05:05,556 --> 00:05:09,276 Speaker 1: kind of leanly muscular. He has long, dark hair, he 82 00:05:09,316 --> 00:05:13,476 Speaker 1: has a beard, kind of like a telegenic cliche reincarnation 83 00:05:13,476 --> 00:05:15,876 Speaker 1: of Jesus in a sense, like he looks like a guru. 84 00:05:16,276 --> 00:05:19,716 Speaker 1: He looked like every cult leader on all the Netflix 85 00:05:19,796 --> 00:05:25,916 Speaker 1: documentaries about Yeah, besides his good looks, he's very intelligent. 86 00:05:26,116 --> 00:05:30,556 Speaker 1: He's very charming. He gives the impression that he really 87 00:05:30,596 --> 00:05:32,556 Speaker 1: wants you to like him in a way that you 88 00:05:32,556 --> 00:05:35,996 Speaker 1: don't dislike him for it. There's something almost quite oh wow, 89 00:05:36,476 --> 00:05:39,516 Speaker 1: there's something quite pure about it. So you liked him 90 00:05:39,556 --> 00:05:42,476 Speaker 1: at times? I liked him very much, and it was 91 00:05:42,716 --> 00:05:44,836 Speaker 1: it was interesting to kind of notice that in myself 92 00:05:45,076 --> 00:05:46,996 Speaker 1: a lot of people like him very much. A lot 93 00:05:47,036 --> 00:05:50,276 Speaker 1: of people venerate him in fact, like a god literally 94 00:05:50,476 --> 00:05:53,276 Speaker 1: some people. And he hates shirts, takes his shirt off 95 00:05:53,316 --> 00:05:58,156 Speaker 1: quite often. Yeah. Octavio the Guru of Toad grew up 96 00:05:58,156 --> 00:06:01,276 Speaker 1: in Guadalajara. His dad taught calculus at a college and 97 00:06:01,316 --> 00:06:04,116 Speaker 1: his mom owned a bookstore. He went to medical school, 98 00:06:04,196 --> 00:06:08,996 Speaker 1: got married, had a kid, But then he tried crack cocaine, 99 00:06:08,876 --> 00:06:12,836 Speaker 1: and like many who try crack cocaine, he became addicted. 100 00:06:13,516 --> 00:06:17,116 Speaker 1: His life fell apart completely. At one point, he takes acid, 101 00:06:17,436 --> 00:06:20,196 Speaker 1: picks up a hitchhiker, falls in love with her, and 102 00:06:20,396 --> 00:06:24,276 Speaker 1: ends his marriage. Then, in two thousand and six, a 103 00:06:24,396 --> 00:06:29,076 Speaker 1: friend introduced him to the toad. Octavia says that as 104 00:06:29,196 --> 00:06:32,636 Speaker 1: soon as he inhaled, his cravings for crack completely went away. 105 00:06:33,316 --> 00:06:37,596 Speaker 1: He found peace and his calling. He kicked his habit, 106 00:06:37,996 --> 00:06:40,396 Speaker 1: he told me, by locking himself in a room and 107 00:06:40,436 --> 00:06:44,276 Speaker 1: smoking toad secretion for an entire year, which is just 108 00:06:45,316 --> 00:06:47,756 Speaker 1: kind of crazy for me to think about that volume 109 00:06:47,876 --> 00:06:52,956 Speaker 1: of psychedelic experience being compressed into a year. But he 110 00:06:53,036 --> 00:06:55,196 Speaker 1: was clean for the first time in years, and then 111 00:06:56,956 --> 00:06:59,596 Speaker 1: you know, he started offering it to friends and giving 112 00:06:59,596 --> 00:07:03,436 Speaker 1: it to other people. This is a weird definition of clean, right, Well, 113 00:07:03,436 --> 00:07:07,956 Speaker 1: he wasn't, yeah, I suppose, so it looked like many 114 00:07:07,996 --> 00:07:11,996 Speaker 1: other psychedelics. Toad secretion is not in any way chemically addictive, 115 00:07:13,196 --> 00:07:17,156 Speaker 1: or it's thought to be very low intoxicity as well, 116 00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:19,916 Speaker 1: so it's not like a thing of cravings. Some people 117 00:07:19,996 --> 00:07:21,796 Speaker 1: just end up using it a lot, because I guess 118 00:07:21,836 --> 00:07:25,076 Speaker 1: they like dissolving their ego a lot. I'm not sure. 119 00:07:26,076 --> 00:07:29,396 Speaker 1: I am certainly not someone who would do that myself, 120 00:07:29,396 --> 00:07:32,796 Speaker 1: but a lot of people do. Doctor Octavio got obsessed 121 00:07:32,836 --> 00:07:37,236 Speaker 1: with toad when his brother visited his apartment. He said, quote, 122 00:07:37,636 --> 00:07:39,596 Speaker 1: you would sit on the couch and a toad would 123 00:07:39,676 --> 00:07:42,876 Speaker 1: jump out. He started looking into the history of toad 124 00:07:43,356 --> 00:07:45,756 Speaker 1: and got introduced to this Seri tribe and had them 125 00:07:45,796 --> 00:07:49,676 Speaker 1: try it. The elders there started talking about an ancient 126 00:07:49,676 --> 00:07:53,716 Speaker 1: tradition of smoking toad, and that gave Octavio a sales pitch. 127 00:07:54,476 --> 00:07:57,956 Speaker 1: Octavio got famous by making that very pitch. At a 128 00:07:57,996 --> 00:08:01,916 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen TEDx talk at burning Man about smoking toad, 129 00:08:02,516 --> 00:08:05,756 Speaker 1: which sounds like an onion headline. He stood up and 130 00:08:05,836 --> 00:08:11,916 Speaker 1: he said, basically, I myself by smoking toad, I discovered 131 00:08:11,956 --> 00:08:15,156 Speaker 1: myself that this medicine healing of more than three and 132 00:08:15,156 --> 00:08:19,156 Speaker 1: a half years of proby adiction. And then I went 133 00:08:19,196 --> 00:08:25,116 Speaker 1: and I healed this marginalized Native Mexican community, and through 134 00:08:25,116 --> 00:08:29,036 Speaker 1: that work resurrected this practice that had been wiped out 135 00:08:29,836 --> 00:08:33,716 Speaker 1: during the colonial era, which is about as good a 136 00:08:33,716 --> 00:08:36,556 Speaker 1: pitch for a psychedelic as I think anyone would could 137 00:08:36,596 --> 00:08:40,516 Speaker 1: come up with. And the craziest thing is that it 138 00:08:40,636 --> 00:08:43,196 Speaker 1: might be true. There is no way of knowing if 139 00:08:43,236 --> 00:08:46,316 Speaker 1: it's true. You don't think it's true, though, I don't 140 00:08:46,356 --> 00:08:49,036 Speaker 1: know if it's my place as a non indigenous white 141 00:08:49,036 --> 00:08:52,476 Speaker 1: guy from South Africa to really weigh in. As another 142 00:08:52,676 --> 00:08:56,596 Speaker 1: non indigenous white guy, I will weigh in. Non indigenous 143 00:08:56,636 --> 00:09:00,916 Speaker 1: white people are eager to believe this. We love a 144 00:09:00,996 --> 00:09:04,316 Speaker 1: story about how non white people can teach us simple truths. 145 00:09:05,236 --> 00:09:08,236 Speaker 1: Usually that person's Morgan Freeman. But we'll listen to an 146 00:09:08,276 --> 00:09:11,476 Speaker 1: indigenous try if it's an excuse to get high. If 147 00:09:11,476 --> 00:09:15,116 Speaker 1: an indigenous person said, don't build this pipeline, we'd never listen. 148 00:09:15,516 --> 00:09:19,076 Speaker 1: But smoking a toad, we're totally in for that. So 149 00:09:19,316 --> 00:09:21,996 Speaker 1: you buy to everyone in the world, it's gonna be 150 00:09:22,396 --> 00:09:26,796 Speaker 1: a direct way through hober something inside of you that 151 00:09:26,996 --> 00:09:29,676 Speaker 1: you just can't remember. He goes, We're a full off, 152 00:09:29,916 --> 00:09:40,476 Speaker 1: so they were. Soon after the TEDx Talk, white people 153 00:09:40,516 --> 00:09:43,436 Speaker 1: with dreadlocks started arriving in the Scenoran Desert just smoke 154 00:09:43,516 --> 00:09:48,396 Speaker 1: toad and spend money. Octavia became the world's lead proponent 155 00:09:48,596 --> 00:09:51,956 Speaker 1: and practitioner of toad smoking, like If you want to 156 00:09:51,956 --> 00:09:54,116 Speaker 1: go to the top toadsmoking guy in the world, you 157 00:09:54,316 --> 00:09:57,676 Speaker 1: travel to see Octavio, or just wait till he shows 158 00:09:57,756 --> 00:10:00,076 Speaker 1: up with a basket of toads at your all day 159 00:10:00,076 --> 00:10:03,516 Speaker 1: networking event in the Hollywood Hills. Toad smoking needed a 160 00:10:03,636 --> 00:10:08,036 Speaker 1: rock star because it's not inherently appealing, not just because 161 00:10:08,036 --> 00:10:11,796 Speaker 1: if it's scary, effects because the idea of it's gross, 162 00:10:11,796 --> 00:10:14,876 Speaker 1: Like you can romanticize eating a mushroom that grew up 163 00:10:14,916 --> 00:10:18,756 Speaker 1: from Mother Earth, but extracting poison from a frog and 164 00:10:18,836 --> 00:10:21,796 Speaker 1: putting that into your body does not seem like a 165 00:10:21,836 --> 00:10:25,676 Speaker 1: good idea. Now, all my knowledge about toad comes either 166 00:10:25,756 --> 00:10:29,316 Speaker 1: from this Michael Pollen book about psychedelics or Beavis and 167 00:10:29,436 --> 00:10:34,876 Speaker 1: butt Head. Are you sure you're licking right? Yeah? I 168 00:10:34,916 --> 00:10:37,276 Speaker 1: don't get it. It's supposed to pack an awesome above 169 00:10:39,356 --> 00:10:44,716 Speaker 1: and the Simpsons, Dad, are you liking toads? Nut licking toad? 170 00:10:45,756 --> 00:10:48,956 Speaker 1: And in those situations people licked the toad, which is 171 00:10:48,956 --> 00:10:51,116 Speaker 1: what I thought you did, But that's not at all 172 00:10:51,116 --> 00:10:54,756 Speaker 1: what you do. If you lick practically any species of toad, 173 00:10:54,836 --> 00:10:57,716 Speaker 1: you're likely to be hospitalized and may die. And some 174 00:10:57,756 --> 00:11:00,876 Speaker 1: people have died from from doing exactly that. So just 175 00:11:00,996 --> 00:11:03,556 Speaker 1: licking a toad. All toads are a little poisonous, yeah 176 00:11:03,596 --> 00:11:05,836 Speaker 1: they are. They are very choices. But in this case, 177 00:11:06,196 --> 00:11:09,356 Speaker 1: you grab this specific toad and I watch them do it. 178 00:11:09,436 --> 00:11:11,916 Speaker 1: You basically go to these little bumps on their skin 179 00:11:11,996 --> 00:11:14,196 Speaker 1: and you pop them like zeitz, and you put a 180 00:11:14,236 --> 00:11:19,916 Speaker 1: glass above it, and there's white kind of ooze sticks 181 00:11:19,916 --> 00:11:22,236 Speaker 1: to the glass and then you dry it and crystallize 182 00:11:22,236 --> 00:11:26,676 Speaker 1: it and smoke it. Yeah, okay, And you know, the 183 00:11:26,716 --> 00:11:29,836 Speaker 1: toads don't have the best time being picked up and squeezed, 184 00:11:29,916 --> 00:11:32,276 Speaker 1: especially now that so many people are doing it. Some 185 00:11:32,316 --> 00:11:35,956 Speaker 1: toads are caught and handled and squeezed repeatedly to the 186 00:11:35,996 --> 00:11:38,916 Speaker 1: extent that their toad secretion has a kind of pinkish 187 00:11:38,956 --> 00:11:43,396 Speaker 1: color from drops of blood getting into the toad. And 188 00:11:44,476 --> 00:11:46,556 Speaker 1: you know, these toads used to be very abundant in 189 00:11:46,596 --> 00:11:49,436 Speaker 1: pots of sonora in summer they would kind of bloom. 190 00:11:49,476 --> 00:11:54,116 Speaker 1: And many areas where these toads were are now conspicuously 191 00:11:54,196 --> 00:11:57,756 Speaker 1: absent of toads. So there are some concerns that they 192 00:11:57,796 --> 00:12:00,196 Speaker 1: may be in trouble. And to any listeners who are 193 00:12:00,196 --> 00:12:03,556 Speaker 1: curious about the mind bending effects of toad I would 194 00:12:03,596 --> 00:12:07,436 Speaker 1: just say that the psychoactive compound in TOAD five m 195 00:12:07,436 --> 00:12:11,676 Speaker 1: e O dmt can be synthesized cheaply and safely in 196 00:12:11,756 --> 00:12:17,436 Speaker 1: laboratories and gives, according to a large number of TOAD smokers, 197 00:12:17,676 --> 00:12:20,556 Speaker 1: in identical high without harming any toads. So there's a 198 00:12:20,596 --> 00:12:23,356 Speaker 1: lot of people who say, smoke synthetic, don't smoke toad. 199 00:12:23,796 --> 00:12:28,996 Speaker 1: This is the weirdest PSA that's ever been done. People, Please, please, 200 00:12:29,076 --> 00:12:32,596 Speaker 1: for your own safety, smoke the synthetic toad, not the 201 00:12:32,636 --> 00:12:36,356 Speaker 1: real toad. Yes, that was a preview of Story of 202 00:12:36,356 --> 00:12:40,036 Speaker 1: the Week with Joel Stein, a new podcast from Pushkin Industries. 203 00:12:40,636 --> 00:12:43,396 Speaker 1: Find Story of the Week wherever you get your podcasts.