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Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of I Heart Radio

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Speaker 1: and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised.

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited to be joined for this very special

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Speaker 1: episode by my friend, amazing historian Dan Jones, who's joining

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Speaker 1: us via via seamless internet technology from across the pond

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Speaker 1: in England. Damn, thank you for joining me. It's absolutely

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Speaker 1: my pleasure. We like was so good at technology that

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Speaker 1: this was set up. We didn't was the easiest thing.

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Speaker 1: We knew how to do. Our headphones, our microphones. Both

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Speaker 1: of us just nailed it immediately first try. I definitely

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Speaker 1: had the microphone thing lockdown? Did you my end? Contrary

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Speaker 1: to what people are saying, my microphone was on the

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Speaker 1: entire time. It was fully, fully turned on. That wasn't

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Speaker 1: the mistake I was making. You were brought back on

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Speaker 1: this podcast by popular demand, that the people demanded you,

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Speaker 1: and so we had to bring you back. But you

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Speaker 1: were the Charles the second of podcast guests. Thank you

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Speaker 1: very much. That's probably my favorite Charles of all the three.

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Speaker 1: Of all the three. So I was I was asking

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Speaker 1: you before we started, how how is the new king

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Speaker 1: over there? Well? I think that you guys are thinking

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Speaker 1: about it a little bit more than we are. We

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Speaker 1: we did, we had quite a lot of it last year,

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Speaker 1: and now we're just The coronation will be along in

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Speaker 1: a few months time, and I think we'll have another

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Speaker 1: that'll go at it then. But by and large, no

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Speaker 1: one's playing it that much attention. I think. I think

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Speaker 1: of the two of us, I am the only one

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Speaker 1: who read Prince Harry's book. Is that true? That is true,

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Speaker 1: assuming you did read it. I didn't read it. I

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Speaker 1: have no reason to doubt you. And it's the sort

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Speaker 1: of thing you would do that like professionally or actually curious.

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Speaker 1: They sent me a copy, so this is full disclosure.

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Speaker 1: As I got a copy for free, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I would have like shelled out for it. And

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Speaker 1: then I was just curious as a document. I was

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Speaker 1: just like, so, what is this guy really saying? Did

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Speaker 1: you find out? By the end of the book. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I think he's past off, isn't it. He's really mad

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Speaker 1: and I think he had a very sad family life.

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Speaker 1: I felt bad for him by the end of it.

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Speaker 1: I was like, it must have been really lonely. Your

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Speaker 1: dad never hugging you like that would have been awful,

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Speaker 1: But I do kind of think he's mad about the

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Speaker 1: wrong things a little bit, like he's holding these family

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Speaker 1: grudges and I feel sorry for him, but it also

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Speaker 1: feels like, I don't know if he realizes it's not

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Speaker 1: that's not like the main problem with the monarchy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it does seem to be quite um. He does seem

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Speaker 1: to have misconstrued and misconceived quite a lot of things

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Speaker 1: that you would have thought like by the time you

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Speaker 1: get to around the age of forty. He's a little

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Speaker 1: bit younger than me, but you know, by the age

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Speaker 1: of forty ish, you're supposed to have just started to

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Speaker 1: work out certain things about your life situation. And he

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Speaker 1: seems to have got some of them wrong, and the

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Speaker 1: ones that he hasn't got wrong, he's reacted to in

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Speaker 1: a really bad way. It does seem as though he's

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Speaker 1: the only one in this family who's gotten therapy, and

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Speaker 1: so clearly a therapist is like it would have been

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Speaker 1: nice if your dad hugged you, and then he's like yes,

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Speaker 1: and then really decided to write a book about it.

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Speaker 1: But was this a specialist therapist? Because I think it's

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Speaker 1: like a certain you need a special like one that

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Speaker 1: just does royals really like, basically you I could do it.

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Speaker 1: You seem you seem like you should be in the

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Speaker 1: person that would do therapy, because you'd probably think about

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Speaker 1: this more than than a normal therapist. It's true of

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Speaker 1: the category of case. Do you know the most deranged

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Speaker 1: thing that I've ever said out loud in my life

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Speaker 1: to my husband? I said, I said the words, and

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Speaker 1: I meant it is there's the really messed up part.

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Speaker 1: I said, if I had married into the royal family,

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Speaker 1: I would have been able to hack it. Like I

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Speaker 1: would have been able to do it. I can follow

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Speaker 1: rules really well. I would wear that right now, polished colors.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't read the news. I would just like curtsy

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Speaker 1: the right way. I would follow all the rules. But

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Speaker 1: you've also done your research, like this is what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: I don't. I would have known when I was getting

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Speaker 1: into I think, so do you? What do you wanted

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Speaker 1: to do it? I mean absolutely think yourskin seems great,

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Speaker 1: and like I'm not sure you harry a fit or whatever,

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Speaker 1: But like, would you in in the abstract have wanted

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Speaker 1: that job at any level? No, it's to me that

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Speaker 1: the job of being a royal. It seems like you

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Speaker 1: are quietly drinking all day with people I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I would like, I'm not a big drinker. And

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Speaker 1: also you have to go to a lot of like

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Speaker 1: ceremonial hospital openings. It feels like you're going to like

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Speaker 1: three graduation ceremonies a day, and your kid is never graduating. Right,

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Speaker 1: the job seems boring. I totally agree, And yet there

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Speaker 1: is a small, like distinct subset category of people who well,

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Speaker 1: there's two on there. There's there's the people who are

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Speaker 1: born into it and like totally deal with it, Like, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: this is like a like I could have definitely been

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Speaker 1: born into a much worse era in history or social position.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to just accept that the cost of having

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Speaker 1: all this great stuff is like a super boring job,

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Speaker 1: even more boring than like being a square john in

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Speaker 1: an office. Yeah, at least a square john in an office.

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Speaker 1: You get to go have your fun without people making

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Speaker 1: fun of you. Well yeah, so, but there was more

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Speaker 1: of a royals who are like, yo, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: take this. I'll take this deal. It's not a perfect deal,

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Speaker 1: but I sense there are other worst deals and the

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Speaker 1: possible so that I can sort of sort of get

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Speaker 1: my head of. The ones that definitely are unusual are

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Speaker 1: the sort of K. Middlesen type people who look at

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Speaker 1: that and think it through, so they do the thing

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Speaker 1: you've done that possibly making didn't do, and then go,

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Speaker 1: oh no, no, that is actually what I want. That's

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Speaker 1: the weird thing, and then doesn't seem to have any

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Speaker 1: regret or or remorse, like, was right, that was what

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Speaker 1: you want. She's very good at at what she has

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Speaker 1: to do, which is being conventionally attractive and thin and

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Speaker 1: wear clothing in public. Would you go to Mars if

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Speaker 1: someone offered your ticket? Absolutely not. Now wants I want

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Speaker 1: somebody and I don't care if his evil musk. I

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Speaker 1: just I don't care who it is. I want a

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Speaker 1: human being to go to Mars. But if you ask me,

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Speaker 1: would I be that? Yeah? But would you do that?

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Speaker 1: I would say no. I would say I would be

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Speaker 1: like the person to go to Mars. Yeah, Okay, after

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Speaker 1: they do it for a while, I wonder is it

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Speaker 1: the safety that you're worried about with Mars? Yeah? And

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Speaker 1: it just seems, um, I don't know what I would

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Speaker 1: be getting out of it. Yeah, the safety and and

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Speaker 1: for what reward. I'm not a rock scientist. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I would be the best person to put there.

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Speaker 1: I could see you as a rock scientist, that you've

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Speaker 1: got science in your locker, haven't you? That's true? Could

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Speaker 1: would you wouldn't go to Mars? Why wouldn't you go

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Speaker 1: to Mars? The safety so that I saw the Martian

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Speaker 1: with mc damon and growing potatoes that tie us into Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it looked It's just just just the length of the journey.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm a little I don't think it would

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Speaker 1: be for me the length of the journey, you know, Dan,

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Speaker 1: But people, I think a lot of people would say

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Speaker 1: that being a historian would be boring. You've had to

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Speaker 1: spend a lot of time reading very old books. You

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Speaker 1: don't find you don't find that barring. No, I don't.

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Speaker 1: Actually I quite like it. Yeah, but I don't know

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Speaker 1: a lot of m Are there a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who looked at his story and when I think that's

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Speaker 1: going to be boring? Because I think the case that

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Speaker 1: we've been talking about is people who think something is

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Speaker 1: going to be better than it is. I was pretty

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Speaker 1: sure about what being his stor you didn't think it

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Speaker 1: was going to be like Indiana Jones. Now that's an archeologist,

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Speaker 1: but he's sort of in the same it's the same academic.

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Speaker 1: He's a professor. Oh, he's a he's a professor. That

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Speaker 1: but that I wouldn't have done. I'm not a professor.

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Speaker 1: I could never ever have been a professor. And that's

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Speaker 1: actually important. So when I graduated from my degree in

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Speaker 1: two two, I was going he went to Cambridge. He's

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Speaker 1: not going to mention, but he went to Cambridge. You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I like other people to bring it up

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Speaker 1: for me. And it's the real one as well, not

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Speaker 1: there like proxy one in Massachusetts. When I graduated and

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Speaker 1: I was thinking, only should I do like loads to

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Speaker 1: more degrees and stay at Cambridge? Sort of everyone that

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Speaker 1: had taught me and knew me was like, I don't

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Speaker 1: think you'll like that. I don't think you're like any

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Speaker 1: aspect of that's whatsoever. And so the life that I've

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Speaker 1: chosen is distinctly not that of an institutionalized profess. So

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Speaker 1: it's the life where I just sort of do my

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Speaker 1: own thing and read what I want to read, and

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Speaker 1: write what I want to write, and sit in my

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Speaker 1: little office in my pajamas. Now, this is an audio medium,

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Speaker 1: but I do want people listening to this to know

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Speaker 1: that Dan is in a very nice set of pajamas,

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Speaker 1: sole set of pajamas, like he's in like notting Hill

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Speaker 1: or something. I've never seen anyone in like a full

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Speaker 1: set of pajamas. And it's not that late that we're recording,

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Speaker 1: but he got ready for bed. Yeah, but I knew

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Speaker 1: that after we finished it would be about my bed time.

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Speaker 1: And then I just thought I'd just be ready. I

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Speaker 1: could just die straight into bed and just worm my

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Speaker 1: way and I have a little you know sleep. Well,

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Speaker 1: if we're talking about diving straight in, you're here because

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Speaker 1: you have a novel that's coming out in the United

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Speaker 1: States in paperback? Is it coming out in paperback or

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Speaker 1: hard hard back? Over here? Hardcover hardcover of course, yes,

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Speaker 1: the real deal. I think we'd go hard yeah, hardcover, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: hardcover of people that's right here, Yeah, yeah, that's us.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. And he's drinking wine. He just pulled

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Speaker 1: a goblet of wine out from behind the behind the camera.

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Speaker 1: It's almost it is. It's quite a large one glass,

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Speaker 1: but with not much wine in it. So yeah, it

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Speaker 1: does have a sort of goblet vibe to it's Monday night.

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Speaker 1: I would not drink heavily on a Monday night. Of course.

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Speaker 1: Well we are here to talk, of course, about his

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Speaker 1: wonderful novel Essex Dogs, which I had the privilege of reading.

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Speaker 1: It's just a it's a wonderful novel. If you like

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Speaker 1: this podcast because you like interesting stories from history well told.

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Speaker 1: Obviously A Sex Dogs is a fictionalization, but it is

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Speaker 1: based on a very true story. And that's what I

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Speaker 1: would like to talk to you about. Oh, that would

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Speaker 1: be fun. Let's do it. So tell me the story.

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Speaker 1: And my achilles heel is French pronunciation because my Eastern

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Speaker 1: European tongue doesn't curl the right way. But the say

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Speaker 1: the name of the campaign to save me from myself here,

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Speaker 1: so as it's still is set in the Cressy campaign.

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Speaker 1: Oh Cressy, that's I could have done that. You can say,

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Speaker 1: reci Yeah, there's a little there's an accent that throughout

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Speaker 1: the house made me near Chrissy. But but Cressy is fine. Um.

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Speaker 1: So that's one of the first major campaigns of the

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Speaker 1: Hundred Years War, which took place in the summer of

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Speaker 1: the year thirty and forty six, which is right at

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Speaker 1: the start of the Hundred Years War. With Hundred Years

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Speaker 1: War from thirty thirty seven through fifty three were loaded

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Speaker 1: at the beginning with the Third Reign. I'm gonna I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna interrupt before before we dive in for people who

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Speaker 1: are just listening and and have heard probably the term

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Speaker 1: Hundred Years War, but don't know exactly what it is.

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Speaker 1: Can you set up a bit about what this conflict

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Speaker 1: was and why they were fighting it for so long? Yeah? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and that is very very cool. The Hundred Years War

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Speaker 1: is a dispute in the Late Middle Ages in the

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Speaker 1: fourteenth and fifteenth century between the two royal rival houses

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Speaker 1: of the Kingdoms of England on the one hand and

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Speaker 1: France on the other. And at the very core of

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Speaker 1: the dispute is who should be the King of France.

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Speaker 1: Starts with the with the third who claims that he

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Speaker 1: should be the rifle King of France because he has

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Speaker 1: a claim through his mother and his cousin Philippa, who

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Speaker 1: is the King of France. Philip six, at the outset

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Speaker 1: Hundreds War says, well, I beg to differ. I am

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Speaker 1: actually the King of France and I have a claim

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Speaker 1: through my father and my father the king of Brands.

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Speaker 1: It's rather wasn't the King of France. But so there's

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Speaker 1: a but he's he's got I think inarguably a better

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Speaker 1: claim than Edward. However, there are other reasons for them

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Speaker 1: disputing who's going to be the King of France, rather

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Speaker 1: than they both want to be the King of France.

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Speaker 1: One of them is that you have an anomalous, weird

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Speaker 1: position by the time he gets to the fourteenth century,

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Speaker 1: which goes all the way back to the normal conquest

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Speaker 1: of ten sixty six, whereby kings of England have lands

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Speaker 1: in France, and sometimes that's Normandy and it's great s

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Speaker 1: extent on the Henry. Second it's Normandy, Aquitaine and Gumain

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Speaker 1: Brittany each other an like this, the huge sway either

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Speaker 1: almost a third of the current territorial land mass of

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Speaker 1: France is at some point held by English kings technically

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Speaker 1: as nobles of France. And that's a weird situation and

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Speaker 1: changes and evolves throughout the plantation years. But by the

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Speaker 1: time you get to end of the third there's still

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Speaker 1: have a small amount of land Gascony, and the French

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Speaker 1: kings aren't very happy about that, sterrritating to have another

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Speaker 1: king as one of your lord's vassals Vassels. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: part of the reason for for this dispute over the

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Speaker 1: crown of France is a kind of nuclear escalation of

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Speaker 1: this argument. End of the third sees that one of

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Speaker 1: the best ways to counter phillips claim to kick him

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Speaker 1: out of Gascony is to say, you can't kick me

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Speaker 1: out of Gascony because actually I'm the King of France.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, let's have a really long war

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Speaker 1: about whether or not this is the case, and it

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Speaker 1: goes generated a hundred years is underplaying. It just goes

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Speaker 1: on for six notes, not quite a hundred and sixty

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Speaker 1: hundred and seventeen something. Once one of my favorite tidbits,

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Speaker 1: I think from one of your books, the book on

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Speaker 1: the Ward the Roses, is when fast forwarding obviously you know,

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Speaker 1: a hundred years from this event, when I hope I'm

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Speaker 1: doing this right, because it is from your book. Henry

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Speaker 1: the sixth is trying to establish his claim in France

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Speaker 1: and they're distributing propaganda posters, trying to trace his lineage

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Speaker 1: back to St. Louis to be like, no, no, he's

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Speaker 1: he's right. Look at the poster that we made. They

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Speaker 1: get right into it and it opens up this enormous

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Speaker 1: kind of worms which which you then start seeing the

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Speaker 1: domestic politics of England and France as well of people say, oh,

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Speaker 1: no way, I should be the king because x y Z.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's what underpins the wars of the

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Speaker 1: Roses in England the fifteenth century. Your Plancaster quote unquote

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Speaker 1: conflict for the crown is really some of the principles

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Speaker 1: established in the Hundred As War, which are like I've

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Speaker 1: not a better claim to the ground than you, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to fight you with my now enormous armies

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Speaker 1: and improving siege weaponry and so on and so forth. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: said back to the Hundred Years War as well as

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Speaker 1: a dynastic dispute for the quote unquote dynastic dispute for

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Speaker 1: the crown of France, it's such a draw in more

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Speaker 1: and more and more competence around Europe. So you have

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Speaker 1: the Scots fighting the English, you have Castile drawn into

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Speaker 1: this eventually, have sort of kingdoms of Portugal drawn into it.

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Speaker 1: You have Flanders is an enormously important sort of theater

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Speaker 1: of hot and Cold War. You have the sort of

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Speaker 1: German states in the pressing campaign. You have the Battle

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Speaker 1: of Crescy, as we hopefully get to, you have five

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Speaker 1: different kings on the battle. So this, this apparent sort

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Speaker 1: of neighborly dispute between England and France, in fact spills

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Speaker 1: out into basically the whole of Western Europe fighting each

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Speaker 1: other in various combinations for generations. So now explain what

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Speaker 1: the Cressy campaign is. We have King Edward the Third

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Speaker 1: in England trying to retain his claim in France, and

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Speaker 1: what happens. So at this point, which is thirty six,

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Speaker 1: the war is young. War is less than nine less

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Speaker 1: and ten years old, and there have been already different

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Speaker 1: spheres of operation open up. There's fighting going on down

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Speaker 1: a gascony. There's been a great sea Battle of Choice there,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of a modern Netherlands. But this is

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Speaker 1: the first big invasion by one side of the other.

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Speaker 1: So in July six d of the Third Lands approximately

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Speaker 1: fifteen thousand troops on one of the Normandy beaches. And

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Speaker 1: whant to say Normandy beaches You probably think D Day

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Speaker 1: World War two, and you're right to, because it is

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Speaker 1: a beach on the cutting Tampa Peninsula of Normandy slightly

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Speaker 1: up from what in the Second Worldar was called Utah

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Speaker 1: Beach should a place called some Valo where Edwards put

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Speaker 1: fifteen thousand men onto a beach, and you can sort

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Speaker 1: of imagine this as a medieval saving Private Ryan. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the idea of a medieval saving Private Ryan, you know,

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Speaker 1: medieval d Day was the first picture I had in

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Speaker 1: my head the sparks what became the novel of Esex Dogs,

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Speaker 1: because I felt like I'd never seen a kind of

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Speaker 1: band of brothers saving Private Ryan, an American hard boiled

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Speaker 1: version of a medieval amphibious invasion. But that's how the

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Speaker 1: Cressy campaign starts. Edward the third says, you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm after, France, and I'm gonna well, that is he

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Speaker 1: actually going to try and take Philip's throne in Paris.

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Speaker 1: Possibly He's certainly going to cause as much trouble for

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Speaker 1: Philip the sixth of France as possible in northern France

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Speaker 1: in order to discomfort him so much that possibly his

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Speaker 1: nobles are rebelled against him and the people will start

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Speaker 1: to abandon their their fealty to him. So that's what Edwards,

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Speaker 1: Edward sets about twelfth of July, he lands his huge army,

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Speaker 1: probably over the course of the next few days. They

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Speaker 1: DeCamp onto the beach. They are opposed by local militias,

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Speaker 1: but the local militias who are opposing them soon see

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Speaker 1: that this is an enormous, enormous army, I mean a

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Speaker 1: gigantic invasion army. This is the biggest army that has

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Speaker 1: ever been taken from England to France, and they're going

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Speaker 1: to do some some serious damage. So they would say

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Speaker 1: the small militia who were on the coast, because Edwards

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Speaker 1: kept his invasion plans or the location of his invasion

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Speaker 1: at least secret spies of in in London for months

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Speaker 1: and months, they knew an invasion was coming, but they

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Speaker 1: had no idea where that parallels with d Day in

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Speaker 1: are striking um, there's there's not much opposition and they

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Speaker 1: start falling back and so Edward really has them the

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Speaker 1: run of the Gotta Tupe Peninsula, this bit of Normandy

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Speaker 1: that sticks out going up to subar So between Normandy

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Speaker 1: and Calais. So it's hard without drawing you a map,

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Speaker 1: but there's a sort of pointy bit that's not Brittany

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Speaker 1: Franz that's the bit of Normandy we're talking about. So

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Speaker 1: and they come in right at the tip of it.

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Speaker 1: And the French strategy for the first couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: is essentially a Fabian one. Is to fall back, try

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Speaker 1: and delay the English advances as much as possible by

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Speaker 1: breaking bridges, by burning things, by but not by engaging.

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Speaker 1: And so the English do what will become a standard

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Speaker 1: tactic of the Hundred Years War, and they sort of

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Speaker 1: launched it in Earnest in thirteen forty six, and it's

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Speaker 1: called the Cheval shape. So they set their army out

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Speaker 1: essentially into the field to just burn and plunder and

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Speaker 1: cause as much terror and mayhem as possible. It is

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Speaker 1: to carve a path through the landscape, a path of terror.

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Speaker 1: Now I wrote Essex Dogs. When I finished writing, I

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Speaker 1: finished writing it's through March, shortly before the Russian invasion

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Speaker 1: of Ukraine. But if you can cast your mind back

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Speaker 1: to Russian tactics at the beginning of the war in Ukraine,

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Speaker 1: which was to burn and plunder and rape and kill

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Speaker 1: and cause as much mayhem and terror as possible. That's

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Speaker 1: borrowed directly from a long military playbook. And of the

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Speaker 1: third did not invent the chevrochet. The Mongols have done

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Speaker 1: it before. I'm sure you know in the Bronze Agent

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Speaker 1: has happened. You know, we can go back probably as

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Speaker 1: far as human history and mounted warriors anyway, go to

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Speaker 1: see examples of similar tactics. It wo, but this is

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Speaker 1: like Edward really master the English master the chevrochet in war.

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Speaker 1: And so the first sort of or probably half of

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Speaker 1: the Gressive campaign is effectively one big, long, just campaign

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Speaker 1: of absolute terror, as the English pushed through the Norman

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Speaker 1: countryside through the sort of kas and all the stuff.

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Speaker 1: You again, if you know you're saving private Ryan or

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Speaker 1: band of brothers, you know these little lanes and head

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Speaker 1: English just burn a sway through it, heading for the

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Speaker 1: major towns of Normandy, which will lead them to the

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Speaker 1: same valley, and then they can go up river towards Paris.

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Speaker 1: And so in your fictional version, we're joined by ten

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Speaker 1: men in Essex, Doug. The story is ten men who

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Speaker 1: are sort of more loyal to each other than any crown. Right.

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Speaker 1: So this story of the Christic campaign has been told

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Speaker 1: in history and in fiction many times, but it struck

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Speaker 1: me when I was thinking about it, or thinking more

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Speaker 1: generally about the realities of warfare in this period, which

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Speaker 1: is something I've written a reasonable amount about in my

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Speaker 1: history books. Struck me that we very seldom see medieval

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Speaker 1: warfare through the eyes of what in the World War

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Speaker 1: two film you'd call the ordinary grunts, right, just the

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Speaker 1: rank and file. The Chrissy Campaign is really famous in

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Speaker 1: medieval history for things that aristocrats and nobles do. There's

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Speaker 1: there are lots of little famous sort of vignettes to

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Speaker 1: set pieces. When end of the Third land on the

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Speaker 1: beach of sam Lug, for example, he he trips over

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Speaker 1: in the surf, bangs his nose into the sand and

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Speaker 1: gets a nose bleed, and he has the quick wit

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Speaker 1: to say, ah, this just shows the land wants me

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Speaker 1: because I was worried this might be you know moment.

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Speaker 1: When we get to later in the campaign, at the

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Speaker 1: Battle of Chrissy, the Black Prince supposedly performs great heroics.

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Speaker 1: He's in danger. His father refuses to come to his aid,

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Speaker 1: so the story goes, this hasn't led him win his spurs,

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Speaker 1: and this is you know, at sixteen years old, this

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Speaker 1: is the Black Prince kind of magnificent emergence as a

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Speaker 1: chivalric warrior, anyway, Chris, he throws up lots of these

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Speaker 1: vignettes through the writings of chronicles like Jean Froissart and

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Speaker 1: various others of that type, but we don't often hear

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Speaker 1: anything at all in this campaign about what it was

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Speaker 1: like for ordinary people. Now, if we consider that in

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Speaker 1: a medieval army of about fifteen thousand, somewhere between ten

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Speaker 1: and would be what would call nobles and knights, that

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Speaker 1: still that leads the vast majority of the army as

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Speaker 1: not nobles and knights. And what I wanted to do

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Speaker 1: was somehow or other capture the experience of one small

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Speaker 1: group of warriors on this campaign who were ordinary people.

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Speaker 1: And so I created this little platoon really called the

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Speaker 1: Essets Dogs, who are quite typical of what we know

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Speaker 1: of the rank and file of medieval armies in this period,

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Speaker 1: in that they're not professional soldiers, because there are no

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Speaker 1: professional armies in this point. They are sort of just

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Speaker 1: you call immerce and mercenary freebooters. Chances, you know, in

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Speaker 1: in war time they will seek out military contracts and

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Speaker 1: go fight for whoever is paying, and in peace time

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Speaker 1: they'll use exactly the same skills for whatever jobs require

428
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: them and that tends to be sort of thieving piracy.

429
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: If you need someone beating up poojical, you know they did.

430
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 1: So there are a group of violent of men pH

431
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,479
Speaker 1: violence is their profession, but not all of them are

432
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,959
Speaker 1: violent men. And so within this group you have some

433
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 1: people who are unthinkingly committed to the profession of fighting

434
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: and causing mayhem, and there are some who are new

435
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 1: to it and don't really know what they've gotten themselves into.

436
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,119
Speaker 1: And there are some most or best epitomized by their

437
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 1: leader Loveday, who was into a birth, starting to have

438
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: second thoughts. And so you what we see unfold across

439
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: their adventures within the Crazy Campaign is the dissolving of

440
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 1: the bond between that group q as they all Osten's.

441
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: We try and keep the group to get you know,

442
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 1: they're they're committed. They're all verbally and in some sense

443
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: mentally committed to one another to keeping this this band together.

444
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 1: But actually it's it's all going to ship inside the

445
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 1: end of the Beatles. You know, everyone wants this thing

446
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 1: to continue, but it's it's you know, it has to

447
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: be has to finish. Although by the end of Crescy

448
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: and the Siege of Calais. It's a victory for the English,

449
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: isn't it? At this point. That's the thing about the

450
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 1: Creasy campaign. You have this Chevrochet, you have several big

451
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: sort of dramatic scenes in Norman towns. At Saalo con Rouen,

452
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: you have drama dramatic crossings of two rivers, the River

453
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: Seine and the north of that, the River So and

454
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: then you have this enormous battle at Cressy at the

455
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 1: end of August six, which is a seemingly miraculous victory

456
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: for the English. Subsequent to that they go off to Calais,

457
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 1: beseach Calais. That's the topic of the book I'm writing

458
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: at the moment, which is a sequel Dresserslves the Wolves

459
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: of Winter. Sorry to spoil the ending. Wikipedia would do

460
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 1: the job just as well. So of spoiling, I mean,

461
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: not a not a wristing a novel. No, but AI

462
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 1: might be might be close behind, and I think GBT

463
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: four might have and I like to say five for

464
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 1: the actually four that's going to catch me, I think,

465
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: so yeah. And then well then you have the Siege

466
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: of Calais which follows, which is a very different cattle fish.

467
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: If the Cresty campaign lasts roughly seven weeks. The Calais

468
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: campaign is an eleven month siege which ends with them

469
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 1: starving the people out of Calais. But yeah, the the

470
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: end fronduct of the of the Crest Cambais is they

471
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: take Calais and that's in English hands. Until Mary Tudors right,

472
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: it is wild to consider starving a city out as

473
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: a victory. Yeah, but that's that's the tactic in medieval siegecraft,

474
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: by and large, just hang around until someone gets bored

475
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: and gives up, or gets hungry and gives up, and

476
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: the victory is that Calais falls into English hands. And

477
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: this is not just why we took a city military terms,

478
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: there's an enormous economic component to this warfare. Now in

479
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 1: Essex Dogs, when I try and show really really up

480
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 1: with the camera locked to this very small group of men,

481
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: is what does the war look like from this in

482
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: this claustrophobic environment of the single military platoon. What I'm

483
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: trying to do with the siege of Calais in Wolves

484
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 1: of Winter is to show actually one of the other

485
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 1: interests in this war, because we've all heard the cliche

486
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: talking about British and American an Allied activity in the

487
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: Middle East over the course of our lifetimes. Ah, it's

488
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: all about the oil. It's just all about money. Well,

489
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of people say that because there's a

490
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: lot big part of that. That's true. It's also true

491
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages that it's about the economy. And

492
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: Calais is an enormously important strategic town halfway between between

493
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: France and Flanders. It controls are very narrow, the narrowest

494
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,479
Speaker 1: bit of the English Channel. It's in easy reach of

495
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: the most economically prosperous sports towns in southern England, and

496
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 1: it's the sinc Ports. It's been a haven for pirates

497
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: for years and years and years who can pray on

498
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 1: passing shipping. It's both a menace and an incredibly it

499
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: will be a bridge head for any further English military operation.

500
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: But fundamentally, once the siege of Catwan's Calais falls in

501
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: thirty seven, Edward the Third clears out everyone who lives

502
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: in Calais invites in the richest merchants from England to

503
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: take over this town and run it as an economic

504
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: contropoe on the continent. Again not new thinking, this was

505
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: exactly what had happened in the Holy Land during the Crusades.

506
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: The same thing had happened the Crusades. Yes, they had

507
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: a big religious purpose to go to Jerusalem. But then

508
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 1: there was the thing that kept every and interested was

509
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: the economic viability of the port. Tack. Well, this is

510
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: the sort of the same in the hundred Years ward.

511
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 1: That's there's a massive financial imperative to doing this, And

512
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 1: the only reason that these wars are possible is because

513
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: people are prepared to lend ed with the third astonishing

514
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: amounts of money. Astonishing amount of He bankrupts bank, he

515
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: bankrupts the body bank, He almost bankrupts the Fresco Baldi.

516
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: He he's running up these gigantic debts to syndicates of

517
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: merchants from the richest towns in England to continue paying

518
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 1: for this war. And they're all very happy to continue

519
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: financing the war because war is fantastic for business. The

520
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: more money they lend him, he mortgages. It actually creates

521
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: a mortgage to pay for these wars. He says, give

522
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: me the money now, and you can take over to

523
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: the tax revenues of all these different rich ports around England.

524
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: So the whole merchants take over the ports, all the

525
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: Yarmouth merchants take over the tax of the ports of Yarmouth,

526
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: the London merchants in London, and some of the Dover

527
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: and so so once you really start getting under the

528
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 1: skin of this war, which looks like if you read

529
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: Quassa Nights and nobles doing heroic deeds, that's just all like,

530
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: that's the that's the icing. This is really just about

531
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: merchants and pirates struggling financial dominance and poor grunts dying

532
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: because of it. If we're talking, you know, chivalric deeds.

533
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: I feel like the legend of Edward the Black Prince,

534
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: who is the son of King Edward the third. Obviously

535
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: Edward dies and never takes the throne, you know, leads

536
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: to challenges in the world the roses. But he's in

537
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: my understanding in British culture, very much seen as a

538
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: gallant hero. How did you portray him in your book,

539
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: she answered, in a non leading question. How nice, she

540
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: to asked, Yeah, it was it was the Black Print's

541
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: eldest son of Edward third, does have this this grand

542
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: reputation as the sort of paragonal of chivalry. It's it's him,

543
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: It's Henry the fifth after him, and it's leverage of

544
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 1: the line art before him. I don't think he would

545
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: have wanted to run into any of those three. Ah.

546
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: Actually I was concerned a dark alley, but anywhere ever, well,

547
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: I would I I'm very charming in a lady. They

548
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: would be very nice to me. They wouldn't. That's learns

549
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: the horrible thing that they really, absolutely massively would. None

550
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: of those three men would be nice to you at all.

551
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: They would be ghastly to you, and there would be

552
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: ghastly to me as well, because I would be a

553
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: sort of Welsh peasant person. So um. But it is

554
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: the Blackfrint. He has this great reputation. I think. Is

555
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: it's great that he never became king, because the reputation

556
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: will have evaporated. He was, by no means as subtle

557
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: as his father. He was in later life an extraordinarily

558
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: effective war lords medieval military tactician, if not a strategist.

559
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: He was being brute, absolutely like Henry the Fit, absolutely

560
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: brutal in an age which demanded that labine large of

561
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: its military leaders in the Kressy campaign. He's often romanticized

562
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: as having been this kind of sixteen year old is

563
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: first time on campaign, and so the story goes based

564
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: on very very thin evidence. He quits himself immensely. Well, well,

565
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: what do we mean he quits himself. Well, he sort

566
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: of doesn't really do anything for the whole of the

567
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: campaign because he's been babysat by the Marshal of the Army,

568
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: Thomas Beecham, Earl of Warwick, and the Constable of the Army,

569
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: William to Boone, Earl Northampton. When he does sort of

570
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: have an opportunity to do anything, the first thing he

571
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: does of real note during the campaign is sack a monastery.

572
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: Then he allows then a bit later, once his father

573
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: has issued instructions they're on the run from Phillip's army.

574
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: At this point between the sen and Song, on no

575
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: account are we stopping to sack monasteries. He lets his

576
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: then sack another monastery, for which twenty of his men

577
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: are hanged summarily by his father. And then when we

578
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: get to the Battle of Crescy well Edward, the Black

579
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: Prince comports himself in quite a strange way. He's placed

580
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: he sort of front and center of the action, but

581
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: he doesn't really obey orders or seem to understand the

582
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: tactics of the battle very well, and he allows himself

583
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: to be pulled out of the English lines and effectively

584
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: captured and his standard face and this is a big

585
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: disaster in the in the heat of the battle for

586
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: the English. Now, the legend goes that he had been

587
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: seen around it and his father was who was commanding

588
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: the battle from the rear, up on a windmill so

589
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: he could see across the whole battlefield. His father was

590
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: informed that he was in trouble and said, oh, you know,

591
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: let it, let him win. His spurs had improved himself

592
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: a man. But none of that in point of historical fact.

593
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: And it's been some amazing research on crazy. Historical research

594
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: on crazy recently by Michael Livingstone, which has revised the

595
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: location of the battlefield and everything basically happened on the

596
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: battlefield says that that's really not what happened at all.

597
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: He was captured and he was enormously lucky to be

598
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: rescued m hm um and his father was extremely annoyed

599
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: with him after the battle. Anyway, So in my not

600
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: knowing all this, as I'm trying to write the Black

601
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: Prince into the story of Essex Dogs, I also asked myself. Well, firstly,

602
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: you say, well, people can change out their career. And

603
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: I asked myself, what would a sixteen year old placed

604
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: in charge of an army when his dad's also the king,

605
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: actually be like? And my answer was not so. Well,

606
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: there's a degree of petulance, which, to go back to

607
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: the beginning of our conversation, one does see sometimes in

608
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: princes of the royal blood there's an enormal carmanorum. Yeah,

609
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: thank you, enormous amon of arrogance. There's a total irresponsibility.

610
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: And since I was trying to write a fun novel

611
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: and there's almost nothing that's known in reality about the

612
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: Black Prince's character from this time, it's not written afterwards

613
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: by people just seeking to lionize him, I thought, well,

614
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: let's make him a drunk, Let's make him a sufficious

615
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: little swine, but also a guy who has beat And

616
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: then here's Harry again, has had to deal with the

617
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: fact of a father as a king. His father has

618
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: been king since he was fifty. His father is not

619
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: deemed to all his school plays. Let's say he's he's

620
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: a horrible little shit because he's lonely, but that doesn't

621
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: excuse his atrocious behavior. Throughout Essex songs, and that we

622
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: have a mirror character among the Essex songs is called Romford,

623
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: who's also sixteen, but who's a sort of street kid

624
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: from London who has been found his way into this

625
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: group of theirs. Told of the last minute, literally as

626
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: they're getting on the boat to leave France. He's trying

627
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: to run away from England and succeeds. He and the

628
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: Prince cross paths with for Romford emotionally disastrous consequences and

629
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: for the Prince absolutely no consequences whatsoever. He learns nothing,

630
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: he sees nothing, he's he's completely untouched by the gentle

631
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: suffering of his his little acolyte. And so there's a

632
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: kind of it's not quite a romance between them at all,

633
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: but there is a collision of these two sixteen year

634
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: olds in war that I found quite interesting to write.

635
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: I was going to ask, I don't want to do

636
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: another too much about leaving question, but there is a

637
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: little interesting thing you play with around sexuality, and can

638
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about the fluidity maybe of

639
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: sexuality in the th hundreds that maybe modern audiences don't

640
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: understand necessarily or want to think about. Yeah, there's look

641
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: at this quite a lot of really respectable authors and

642
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: I can't possibly include myself in that bracket, but you know,

643
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: there's there's there's proper writers writing about the Middle Ages

644
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: at the moment. The temptation, of course, for modern novelists

645
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 1: approaching the Middle Ages is to just dump twenty one

646
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: century priorities onto this canvas because it's like it's a

647
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: cool mash up and I get it, it's heynani no,

648
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: but guess what, we're all sort of gender fluid or

649
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: whatever it might be. Because some of these novels are

650
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: great in their way, but I found it like, not

651
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: that satisfying a thing for me to do, to go

652
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: to go and do that. And what I tried to

653
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: draw out in Essex Dogs, particularly in this story I've

654
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: alluded to between Romford and the Black Prince, is something

655
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,959
Speaker 1: about what sexuality was like in the Middle Ages, which

656
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: is not so categorized, let's say, as it is now. Yeah,

657
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: we have in the tw first century a weirdly nineteen

658
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,439
Speaker 1: century pseudo scientifical scientific sort of approach that we've we've

659
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: put into gender and sexuality that were we to see

660
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: it in terms of ethnicity and like the shapes of

661
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: heads and ship. You go, oh my god, that's the

662
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: wackiest end of the wackiest, wackiest end of nineteenth century pseudoscience.

663
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: But we've we've sort of got a version of that

664
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: around section in the Middle Age. You don't have any

665
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: of that. You've got lots of really wacky, weird nonsense science,

666
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,399
Speaker 1: but it doesn't seem to have been applied to categorizing sexuality.

667
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 1: So the love between men, which we would probably categorize

668
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: as homosexual, isn't really thought of in that way. As

669
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: the Middle Ages. There are distinct categories of sexual in misconduct. Well,

670
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: there's really one which is buggery. That's how to make

671
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: anything that as we were telling me, yeah, son of yeah,

672
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: there's that, and then there's everything else, or rather there's

673
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: there's what's a legit in the church law in terms

674
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: of sexual conduct, which is very strictly by this stage

675
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: defined as sex between one man and one woman for

676
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: the purposes of procreation. And then there's everything else, which

677
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: is pretty my guinet, which could be gathered about. Now

678
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: that's a very strict church definition and it's not very

679
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: well policed, and I don't think it's very well observed

680
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: or eBay if that is definitely not very well observed

681
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: or obeyed by ordinary people. But as regards you know,

682
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: the sort of versions of same sex attraction, which in

683
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: the twenty fi century we would be extremely keen to

684
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: categorize and delineate and make sort of names for and

685
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: acronyms and hashtags and stuff like. That's that's us. They

686
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: just don't do that. I'm not like passing judgment, really,

687
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that that's not how it works in

688
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: the Middle Ages. When you try and make the Middle

689
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: Ages do that, it doesn't ring very true. So what

690
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: I try to do, as it stokes, it's just play

691
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 1: with this idea that there is an attraction certainly from

692
00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: Romford side. Yes, that came across as as a reader. Yeah,

693
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: older men are attracted to Romford. Robert doesn't really know

694
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: what he's about because he's just like a fiend and

695
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: a drifter. He quite likes the Prince, but he doesn't

696
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: it doesn't sort of torture himself by asking what that

697
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: makes him. He just has this kind of attraction towards

698
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: the Prince, which is in some sense sexual, but it's

699
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: also in that is sexual attraction is indistinguishable from a

700
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: role that Romford is given as a squire, as a

701
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: sort of social inferior to the prince. So he's sort

702
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 1: of he looks at him with this kind of daunted

703
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 1: admiration which spills over into sexual attraction. But that's so

704
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: much of that is part of his feeling, like the

705
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: social difference between them, and you can't unpick in the

706
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: Middle Ages that the difference for me between social longing

707
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: and sexual longing. They're bound up in the same thing.

708
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 1: And so the love story such as is between them

709
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: is quite subtle. I think it's certainly in its resolution, yeah, yeah,

710
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: and doesn't push it into the psychological component of romance

711
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 1: that we are familiar. And that that really something I've

712
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: tried to do throughout Essex Dogs Is is showing you

713
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: the Middle Ages with as little twenty one century psychological

714
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: intrusion as is possible without making it just totally confusing

715
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: and weird. So they do in order to make it comprehensible,

716
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: they speak in a sort of form of modern idium,

717
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: but they don't do things. Even the sympathetic characters don't

718
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 1: aren't really sympathetic in ways that are we would find

719
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: sympathetic in a novel set in contemporary time. I find

720
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: that challenge so relatable. I wrote a book and another

721
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: book coming out in February that takes place in the

722
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: early eight hundreds, and I tried to keep everything as

723
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: heldable for a modern audience as I could, while still

724
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: maintaining the feel of, you know, the regency period, pre

725
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: regid spirit in this sense. But my copy had a

726
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: her and I went back and forth a lot because

727
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: I wanted to have characters say okay, and she was like,

728
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: you can't, and I was like, I know it's not

729
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: historically accurate, but to me, it conveys sort of a

730
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: youthfulness and a teenage, you know, conversationality that a younger

731
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: character would do. That I kept them. So it's like

732
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: even the mistakes that I mistakes, I put an air

733
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: quotes I made. I think I tried to make us

734
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: deliberate choices for the text. As you know, I absolutely

735
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: loved Nat, Thank you very much. Cannot wait through immortality,

736
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: and I I think you're brilliant. And I just I

737
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: read that that first boview was in like one. I didn't.

738
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: I didn't put him up to this. You absolutely didn't.

739
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: You absolutely didn't felt it barely knew when I bought

740
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: it and I read it in one go and I

741
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: was transfixed by I remember as I was reading, I

742
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: was send your message, say this is just such like

743
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: I was transported to that to Edinburgh at that time,

744
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: and I thought that you just handled all of the

745
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: stuff that I've been agonized I was agonizing over as

746
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: I was writing Essex Stalks at the time. I was

747
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,959
Speaker 1: reading that just like it just felt and I'm sure

748
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: effortless it's not the right word, because no, no, I

749
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: I agonized when those lists too. You have to make

750
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: those the sort of choices, but as a result that

751
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: you end up with feels just you know, once the

752
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: reader falls under your spell in anatomy, you know they're

753
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 1: just they're they're in that world and it just everything

754
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: feels right. And I think you've got to You've got

755
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: to earn that. And don't know, I think you know,

756
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 1: as you know, I thought you you earned it magnificently

757
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: in that book. But I think any writer has you

758
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: have to earn the right to do things that aren't

759
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 1: period accurate within a period book. Then that means getting

760
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: an awful lot of stuff right or close to right.

761
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: So that you're then you you then say okay, well

762
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: you earn the reader's trust and they're going to go

763
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: with you even when it is clear that you're doing

764
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 1: things that are not possible in that period. So in essence, dogs,

765
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: you know you've said, you have people saying okay, I

766
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: I really struggled with I'm writing a book about men

767
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: in an army. How am I going to have them

768
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: speak to one another? Because they's got to be somewhat profane.

769
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: But the profanity of the Middle Ages is blasphemy for

770
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: the fundamentally, our profanity is schatology and and it's and

771
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: it's sexual. That's how we swear. But so I had

772
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: a lot of trouble about am I going to use

773
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: the F word in this? And eventually yeah, I use

774
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: fairly liberally to punctuate military speech to because you have

775
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: to translate dialogue from communicate it to a modern audience

776
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: what you need to convey. It's part of the Tiffany

777
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: for oublem, right, the Tiffany problem. Yeah, it's a So

778
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: it's that's just sort of the colloquial name for it.

779
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: The fact that like if someone hears the name Tiffany,

780
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: they're they're like, oh, let's go to the mall. But

781
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 1: Tiffany is a name that existed in the Middle Ages

782
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 1: and the him you know, and for for years and

783
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 1: hundreds of years. But if you wrote a historical fiction

784
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: book and made your main character named Tiffany, it would

785
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 1: seem wrong even if it's right. And so the typically

786
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: problem is a is a colloquial version that someone told

787
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: to me when I was writing anatomy, where sometimes you

788
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 1: have to make things a little wrong so they feel right.

789
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: To monorn readers, do you know what I love that?

790
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: I've never heard it describes the Tiffany problem before, But

791
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: it's that's that says that says everything. I always think.

792
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 1: It's like castles, you know, I like Headed Castle a

793
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 1: famous watch watch Dan Jans Walk Your Castles on Netflix.

794
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: Please please squander your life in this pursuit. But they're

795
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: the wrong cut, you know, you see them now. They're

796
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: so bland. All medieval churches that's just devoid almost there

797
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: the usually devoid of wall paintings and color and no

798
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: with whitewash. If I went down the Windsor Castle Runch

799
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: is about five miles down the road from my house

800
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: with my tin of whitewash, and I just whitewash one

801
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: of the towers. I reckonized, I reckon trees and laws

802
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: would be dusted off. But they in the Middle Ages,

803
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: it would not be unusual to have a sort of

804
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: a bright new colored castle. But we just think so

805
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: even if you saw it on ILM, you'd say that's

806
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: absolutely non to These people don't know anything about the

807
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: Middle Age, So you're right. This is a version of

808
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: the Tiffany. I call it the white washing windsor castle

809
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: white washing winter castle problem, copyrighted Dan Jones. Another thing

810
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: I also think, I mean, I I loved ethex Dogs,

811
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: I like I thought it was just I felt like

812
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: I was learning. This was a period of history I

813
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: didn't know much about, and it made a battle feel

814
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 1: so immediate and personal when I tend to be so

815
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: bored by military history. It was so brilliantly done. Your

816
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: characters are so well sketched, and I think that your

817
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: use of violence and gore is so well placed. You

818
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 1: don't use it gratuitously, but you convey how brutal these

819
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: battles were. Well. Thank you. And there's I don't read

820
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: a lot of military fiction, and I don't write. I

821
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: mean I sort of some of them the books. In

822
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: books like The Crusade, you can't get away from it,

823
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: but the political as well as military, and it's not

824
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a battle nerd, really, but I

825
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: am a kind of people. And if one of the

826
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: techniques that I tried, or the main technique I tried

827
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 1: to use an Essex Dogs in order not to have

828
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: very sort of either cliche or just like gratuitously unpleasant

829
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: battle scenes, was just a lock focus, super super tight

830
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: with one character and you follow mainly two characters. You

831
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: follow the group of characters, but you're locked with a

832
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: couple of viewpoints love Day and Romford through most of

833
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: Essex Dogs, and not as much as you. But I

834
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: have worked in TV as well as in writing, and

835
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: one of the directors I worked with on a show

836
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: a few years ago gave me a very good piece

837
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: of advice, which is, if you're having trouble writing your

838
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: way through a scene, just lock that camera on one

839
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: person's shoulder. I found that the more I did that

840
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: in Essex Dogs, the more the battles sort of gained

841
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: very similitude. And there's one which is the one I

842
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: suppose it's really is a crescy where for part of

843
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: it where with Romford and he's just on the floor,

844
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 1: just on the floor, and we could see his feet

845
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: have been kicking it. But then it's really but he

846
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: can't get a real can't get up, and you don't

847
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: see anything out like flashes, you see other stuff that

848
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: also I found, like, firstly, it freed me from having

849
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: to write endless, endlessly long boring battle scene, so you've

850
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: just got this like confused chaotic vision through one person's eyes.

851
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,959
Speaker 1: But I found also enabled me to make jokes because

852
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: anyone who knows is invested in the history of the

853
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: Crescent Campaign will come to us themselves and we'll be

854
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: able to see where there are there's little easter eggs

855
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: for the homeboys, right, like if you know that the

856
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: Black Prince, if you if you heard about the Black Princes, go, well,

857
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: it wasn't actually true that the Black Prince wore black armor.

858
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: That's a Victorian myth. Right, let's st get this. Then

859
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: there's a there's a joke for you about why how

860
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: he gets that name and the way he acts when

861
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: someone offers to give him some black armor is like

862
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: it's but if you don't know. It doesn't marry says

863
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: in character, but the picking viewpoints that are attached closely

864
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: to one character, you know, usually a lonely part of

865
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: the of the social hierarchy. I just found I had

866
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 1: much been a ways of having jokes and subverting history

867
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: and messing around with it, and and I enjoyed myself

868
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: doing that a great deal. But then look, i'd have

869
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: written a novel before. It was all new to me,

870
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 1: and now you're doing another. There's a sequel coming out.

871
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: I believe it's part of a trilogy. It's number two

872
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: of a trilogy. Yeah, and I've gotta I gotta really

873
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: finished writing that thing. Yeah, get on it so that

874
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: I can have you back on and we can talk

875
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 1: about it again. Siege craft is different. Siege craft is very,

876
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: very different. Narrative challenge. I'm finally writing a the story

877
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: of a siege to the story of a campaign, a

878
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 1: military campaign. Is it's pretty easy? Like, oh, of course, yeah,

879
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: famously easy. All of us are thinking that. But what

880
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: you do, what you have built into it is narrative imperative.

881
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: It goes forward because the army is moving and all

882
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: you've got to well not all you've got to do.

883
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: But that the thing you've got to actually a thing

884
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: you've got to do with the battle campaign that's difficult

885
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: is not make it inevitable the way they go in,

886
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: and you've got to throw red herring after red herring

887
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 1: in and give them different diversion so that it's not

888
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: just that, well, they're on a train and the trains

889
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: go into the station. Stop them here. Yeah, the difference

890
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 1: of the siege is, man, this train isn't going anywhere

891
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,720
Speaker 1: the Strangers station. It's going to be at the station

892
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: and delivering gets off. So it's very, very rich in

893
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: textural opportunity. Unless it a very teenage girl and a

894
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: horse who thinks she talks to God. It shows up.

895
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: That's good for your siege. You know that you said

896
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: about the trol with Calli's trouble with Keli. The trouble

897
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: is it's not or Lane no true what you do

898
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: have just in the same way, Elier, you've got Joan

899
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: of Arc and the White Horse and every you know

900
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: instantly when you say that, everyone knows what you're thinking

901
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 1: if they listen to this podcast. Anyway, I haven't done

902
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: a Joan of Arc episode, but I will. Well, you

903
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: gotta get Helen Caster to come and do it. She

904
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: is brilliant. Yeah, she's she's she's the best. Put that aside. Cali,

905
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 1: you have a very very very very very fam us

906
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: end to the siege. So if you've been to Calais,

907
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: there's a row down sculpture in Calais of the six

908
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 1: Burghers of Calais, and they're coming out with the nooses

909
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: around the next to offer their lives to Edward to

910
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: buy the freedom of everyone who's left in the city,

911
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:20,240
Speaker 1: who's survived baiting, rats and horse leather and whatever, whatever, whatever.

912
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: And it's a really famous, really famous scene. And then

913
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: you have cause Edward says, no, you hang you all,

914
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: and his wife Siliver, oh please through that? Okay that

915
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: I won't. It's a bit more dramatic than that, more

916
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: paces in it than that impression suggested. But there are

917
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: things in Cali to write towards that. They're there from

918
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: the history, and so I've that's helpful. I love this.

919
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about this. There's so much history, Dan,

920
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: That's the lesson of history, isn't it. There's there's tons

921
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: of it. Every time I think you've you've got to

922
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: handle on it there's some more comes along. I've been

923
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 1: reading nonstub history for a few years, doing this podcast constantly,

924
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 1: and I've never heard about these burgers coming out with

925
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: nooses or on their necks. The Rodance. Just doing google

926
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: the Rodan sculpture, because the Rodand sculpture, there's two of them.

927
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: There's another one, I think in London. Maybe I've not

928
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: long to make somewhere else. I made a couple of

929
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: films that like the Real History of Essence Dogs and

930
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: made them in the summer last year, and we went

931
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,240
Speaker 1: to Calais and I said and looked at that Rodand sculpture,

932
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: and it's just I mean, obviously it's it's not fourteenth century,

933
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: it's Rodin, it's modern, but it's a sensational piece of

934
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 1: sculpture which each of these six Burgers has a different

935
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: form of grief conveyed by their mannerisms in their face,

936
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 1: and they are what's amazing about it is that he

937
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: has given them individual character. And when we think about

938
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: so many of these set pieces from medieval history, if

939
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: it's not the king or someone like near the level

940
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: of the King, or Joan of Arc or whatever, they're

941
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: just sort of generic noble or generic knight or generic

942
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 1: peasant or generic archer or whatever. And what road Down

943
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: does so brilliantly in that sculpture is say, these were

944
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: real people, each one individual at each with a different

945
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: reaction to this what we now see as a sort

946
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 1: of a fixed historical tableau. And row Down is in

947
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,879
Speaker 1: a measurably greater artist than I will ever be, obviously,

948
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: but the I don't know, he never owned as sex dogs. Well,

949
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: but the aim is to capture some of that, is

950
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: to say, like an army of fifteen thousand is fifteen individuals,

951
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: and each one of them with their own take on

952
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: the thing that they're experiencing. And when we think of

953
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: medieval archer, yeah, okay, that's like that's a type. That's

954
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: somebody who shoots a pretty similar bow with a similar

955
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: arrow out of a similar bow and a similar place.

956
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 1: But each one of those people was an individual, and

957
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 1: and in the realm of fiction at least, that gives

958
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: you such rich opportunity to do things with the past

959
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: that nonfiction doesn't always allowed to do. So that's for

960
00:50:55,760 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: me why I've enjoyed my little gap here. Fiction brilliantly said,

961
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: A six dogs comes out in America February fourteen. I

962
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: believe makes a great balance and take the week before. Yeah,

963
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: it's it's a pregame to immortality. Are I'm I'm twenty eight,

964
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: two weeks before. It's okay, but plenty of time to

965
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: read it and get ready for immortality. Your February could

966
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: be sensationally good fiction wise, couldn't right? Get a good

967
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: Valentine's Day gift for the medieval history lover in your life. Yeah,

968
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:38,439
Speaker 1: and then get a get book after that. Yeah, thank

969
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: you so much for joining me. Uh, clearly when you're

970
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: ready to go to bed. This is this is what

971
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: I planned. Fire sell roll from straight into vice slumber.

972
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: And next time I'm in London, will you take me

973
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: on another tour? Can we go do something? Yeah? What

974
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: you want to say? I'm coming this summer, are you? Yeah,

975
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: I'm leading at tore to Cornwall, but I'm going to

976
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: be in London for a bit. Okay. So we went

977
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,839
Speaker 1: to Westminster Abbey last time, didn't we? Yeah? I got

978
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 1: a personal tour from Dan Jones in Westminster Abbey. Not

979
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 1: to brag, but it was. It was wonderful. We had

980
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: to queue up. I've never done that before. It was.

981
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: I know. He was like, he's like, you're on TV.

982
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: You don't have to wait line. Well, what don't we

983
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: go to the Tower of London. Done, I'm there, let's

984
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 1: do it. Tower of London is good. Yeah, we'll do that. Great.

985
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: I'll see you this summer, and I'll see you even

986
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,280
Speaker 1: sooner because we're talking about your book again for your launch.

987
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: Oh and then I'm coming to l a al, I'm

988
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,720
Speaker 1: coming to see Iggy Pop. You're going to get so tired.

989
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 1: I'll see you so much. This is good. I know,

990
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 1: this is fantastic. Great, order Dan's book. Dan, I'll see

991
00:52:40,360 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: you so soon. Noble Blood is a production of Art

992
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron