Speaker 1: Alsome Media.
Speaker 2: Hello everyone, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: It's me James today and I'm very lucky to be
Speaker 1: joined by Bryce from No More Deaths And what we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about today is this really excellent piece
Speaker 1: of data visualization and research that depicts a very sad topic,
Speaker 1: which is the deaths of migrant centering the United States.
Speaker 1: And Bryce, I know he's done a lot of work
Speaker 1: on this, so welcome to the show. Bryce, Thank you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're welcome. I guess maybe we can start off. I'm
Speaker 1: looking at this data visualization on a map right now,
Speaker 1: and we'll have links in the show notes for other
Speaker 1: people who want to look at it. Can you explain
Speaker 1: what this data set is?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we collected through a bunch of different sources,
Speaker 3: medical examiners, Justices of the Peace, SHERIFFISAL partner, CBPS owned data,
Speaker 3: just a bunch of data on individual micro along the
Speaker 3: US Mexican border.
Speaker 4: And so this is different data through each.
Speaker 3: Source, but generally we tried to get a lot of
Speaker 3: demographic data, location data, positive death, and at least some
Speaker 3: form of the instigram laertive to kind of get a
Speaker 3: little bit of the context of.
Speaker 4: How each of these people guide.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if people are looking at the map, they can
Speaker 1: see various colored dots, right, and they can click on
Speaker 1: that dot and that will give them the fiscal year
Speaker 1: the border trail sector. In some cases you'll see like
Speaker 1: the type of death, maybe a gender and age, things
Speaker 1: like that. Looking at it, like it's one of those
Speaker 1: things that maybe is more emotionally difficult to view if
Speaker 1: you're more familiar, Like I can look at these dots
Speaker 1: and I can think of places I've been. I can
Speaker 1: even think of that the day I was there, and
Speaker 1: it's quite know, it's impactful to see that all these
Speaker 1: people have died in places I know. So well, perhaps
Speaker 1: we can explain, like the scale of this is huge, right,
Speaker 1: do you know how many exactly how many data points
Speaker 1: there are on here?
Speaker 4: I think there's something like solve a thirteen thousand.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fast, which overall is like not a great
Speaker 3: sort of like indicator of how many people have actually
Speaker 3: died or even know how many people could be reported
Speaker 3: to have died, just because the Texas Day it all
Speaker 3: is so walky.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get into that.
Speaker 1: Then let's talk about maybe the sources for this data,
Speaker 1: and then maybe perhaps how your estimates are much high,
Speaker 1: even with some of the emissions. Like the data that
Speaker 1: you have tends to show under reporting, So like can
Speaker 1: you explain first like where does this data come from
Speaker 1: and how did you get it? You were saying the
Speaker 1: Texas numbers are lower, but can you explain how like
Speaker 1: there are these multiple jurisdictions and how you can't just
Speaker 1: like ask someone for this information.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a new people we're able to disask for it. Well,
Speaker 3: generally it all comes from formal public records requests from
Speaker 3: medical examiners. When we're lucky because medical examiners US we
Speaker 3: have really good easily shaped double data.
Speaker 4: So so we did for San Diego County, Yeah, that're
Speaker 4: very good.
Speaker 3: Pima County, the state of New Mexico, Al Passo, other
Speaker 3: places have a corner that are associated with for sheriff department,
Speaker 3: and that's usually a little dice year they're a little
Speaker 3: more reluctant to give up records. The Imperial County, for
Speaker 3: Yuma County and then Texas it's just like a medical
Speaker 3: legal nightmare. So there's if smaller counties don't have medical examiners,
Speaker 3: they just had justice into the peace culture.
Speaker 4: Part of like the courts and.
Speaker 3: They'll go out and investigate deaths and if an autopsy
Speaker 3: is needed, they'll send it off to another county to
Speaker 3: get an autopsy. There's a huge amount of counties in
Speaker 3: Texas like this. So that data all came from this researcher,
Speaker 3: Stephanie Luster from the University of Texas Austin, who is
Speaker 3: working on a different project, but was gracious enough to
Speaker 3: share everything that she had collected. But that was like
Speaker 3: just a huge amount of work physically going to each
Speaker 3: of these counties, looking at paper records from justices of
Speaker 3: the peace, writing down all that data. There's some that
Speaker 3: comes from like sheriff's department, some that comes from.
Speaker 4: Various other sources. So the Texas data and some of it.
Speaker 3: For example, Wegg County Medical Examiner, they don't give up
Speaker 3: their data to anybody, and there's a lot of issues
Speaker 3: with them potentially, like not having actually performed autopsy on
Speaker 3: a lot of autopsies on a lot of migrants, and
Speaker 3: there's some potential bookcases about that going on.
Speaker 4: But yeah, so.
Speaker 3: Texas is really messing and a lot of it you'll notice,
Speaker 3: like Texas has a lot of.
Speaker 4: The purple dots.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the purple dots are their location data from Border
Speaker 3: patrols database and so that ends in twenty eighteen. So
Speaker 3: we have data possible needs border patrol over not location data. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and so a lot of Texas on that being this
Speaker 3: just the border patrol data unless we have loved specific
Speaker 3: access to that places Justice of the Peace data. It's
Speaker 3: so the Texas data is pretty limited for about reason.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can see a sort of very few red dots,
Speaker 1: which which are your your other data sources like in
Speaker 1: Texas aside from it. So maybe Brooks County you're able
Speaker 1: to get Justice to the Peace data there because yeah,
Speaker 1: the density is profound.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just the So it's the Brooks County Chasta
Speaker 3: Department that actually puts together that data, and they're really
Speaker 3: keen on the whole thing. Okay, And partially it's because
Speaker 3: the data exists, but partially it really wills just to
Speaker 3: reach fluster death in that area because of a checkpoint
Speaker 3: south of there where people will get dropped off south
Speaker 3: of the checkpoint pipe around and it's just like massive,
Speaker 3: massive open grade yard in Brooks County.
Speaker 2: Jeez.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think I spent much time in that
Speaker 1: part of Texas, but certainly like some of these other
Speaker 1: ones that I'm much more familiar with. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: the CBP data, right, you mentioned it there. One of
Speaker 1: the things you found was that CBP has a systemic
Speaker 1: issue with undercounting deaths, right yeah, So where does that
Speaker 1: come from?
Speaker 3: So I've heard from I guess for years Humane Borders
Speaker 3: and Pema County Medical Examiner has been documenting this since
Speaker 3: at least twenty fourteen. The major undercount on border patrols data.
Speaker 3: But something I've here a lot is just that it's
Speaker 3: cases where border thetow wasn't personally involved in the search
Speaker 3: and that they had like changed their coounting system to
Speaker 3: only be counting cases where they were involved. And I
Speaker 3: think that may account for some of it.
Speaker 4: But in order.
Speaker 3: To compare these deaths, border patrols data is just really
Speaker 3: gnarly and messy, and that there's typos, there's misspelling. States
Speaker 3: are wrong, ages are wrong, genders are wrong. So you really,
Speaker 3: in order to compare them, you really have to go
Speaker 3: person by person.
Speaker 4: Go down the list, find the death and in.
Speaker 3: Order patrol database, look at Medical Examiner data on find
Speaker 3: of them person by person. So because we have so
Speaker 3: much of the incident narratives from the medical examiners, we
Speaker 3: can actually tell when Border patrol was involved, and so
Speaker 3: we mark when border patrols involved when they're not involved,
Speaker 3: and then when that case doesn't actually get counted by
Speaker 3: Border patrol.
Speaker 4: Okay, and it.
Speaker 3: Doesn't actually really line up. There's not a huge correlation there.
Speaker 3: I mean there is some correlation, like older skeletal remains
Speaker 3: things like that often won't get counted, but generally there
Speaker 3: are a lot of cases where they directly involved where
Speaker 3: even they were the first responders on the scene to
Speaker 3: a distress call or any number of things, where that
Speaker 3: person won't end up in Vorda patrols database. And then
Speaker 3: other cases where it seems like they had no involvement,
Speaker 3: that person ends.
Speaker 4: Up being in Vortical Patrol's database.
Speaker 3: So they've been in trouble with the GAO multiple times
Speaker 3: for under counting or in prop of the accounting or
Speaker 3: recording these debts, and so they have access to medical
Speaker 3: examiner data. Medical examiners send them the data, they just
Speaker 3: don't use it. We often also noticed that, uh, the
Speaker 3: causes of death really don't match up in a lot
Speaker 3: of like really specific cases like yeah, for Walfalls, for instance,
Speaker 3: was the most notable one. There'll be a huge amount
Speaker 3: of cases that medical examiner will say one force trauma,
Speaker 3: and then Border Patrols data will say medical examiner and
Speaker 3: detainment or exposure or any number of other things, which
Speaker 3: like for the most part, causes the death seem to
Speaker 3: line up. So the fact that these Waalfall deaths it
Speaker 3: happens to not line up is like, you know, I
Speaker 3: don't want to assume they have bad intent, although obviously
Speaker 3: Bordemtrol is bad intent, but it seems like it happens
Speaker 3: regularly enough that it's hard to feel like it's not
Speaker 3: as somewhat intentional that the cases that they're kind of
Speaker 3: choosing to change the causes of death.
Speaker 1: For right, So let get obfuscates the lethality of the
Speaker 1: border war, right length, it's the amount of people who
Speaker 1: it kills.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean to a huge degree too.
Speaker 3: I mean the fact that Bordertrol's data is kind of
Speaker 3: our only source of data for MCAN deaths and then
Speaker 3: specifically for deaths caused by border patrol or like Walfall deaths,
Speaker 3: means that the amount of death that we need the
Speaker 3: public has access to, like Walhall death, for instance, is
Speaker 3: just a drop in the bucket.
Speaker 4: Compared to what's actually happening.
Speaker 3: So all of the research and reporting and all the
Speaker 3: stuff that happens around at these CC related deaths is
Speaker 3: drawing off just like truly false numbers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and that leads to people growing bad conclusions,
Speaker 1: right right. The other thing that you found is that
Speaker 1: like that there seems to be an underreporting of in
Speaker 1: custody deaths, right, or an undercounting of people who die
Speaker 1: in custody. So can you explain how you're able to
Speaker 1: ascertain that different between the in custody death recorded by
Speaker 1: the Office of Professional Responsibility.
Speaker 2: That's just the ones that you found, right, right.
Speaker 3: So the opposite Professional Responsibility is part of CBP, and
Speaker 3: they're supposed to be recording all the saw CBP related deaths,
Speaker 3: including according to the Deats and Custody Reporting Act to
Speaker 3: like twenty thirteen or whatever it was, army destin plustody.
Speaker 3: There's a really specific definition of what in custody means,
Speaker 3: and so we tried to follow pretty strictly what that
Speaker 3: definition was to kind of make our own assessments using
Speaker 3: the incident narratives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious what does it mean, Like I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about door intention, right, Like does that count as in custody?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: So any only time if the person is in the
Speaker 3: process of being apprehended, if the person has been apprehended,
Speaker 3: if a person has been detained, as a person is
Speaker 3: physically in custody, bordertrol, in a bordertrol vehicle, in a
Speaker 3: CP facility, all those things would count. Is inculsody okay,
Speaker 3: which is important because and at least one of the cases,
Speaker 3: the border patrol agent involved said the person wasn't in custody,
Speaker 3: he was just detained, which for the purposes of reporting,
Speaker 3: there's actually no difference.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, but you said that clearly to.
Speaker 3: Not have it be labeled as in custody death right,
Speaker 3: and what it seems like that ended up not being
Speaker 3: able toserve in custody death So it's definitely I think
Speaker 3: they're they're aware the fact that these are being requoted
Speaker 3: and kind of tron not to have.
Speaker 1: That due to case they have too many of them,
Speaker 1: like appear Another interesting data interesting is your own word,
Speaker 1: but another data point here was the amount of death
Speaker 1: caused by pursuit right or in pursuit I guess maybe
Speaker 1: you should just explain what pursuit is to people if
Speaker 1: they're not aware.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's two kinds of pursuit. We listen at
Speaker 3: the same gear on the database. You can see the
Speaker 3: difference of there's chases on a motor vehicle and there's
Speaker 3: chases on foot. So for example, a person's getting chase
Speaker 3: through the desert and collapses and dies, they'll be considered
Speaker 3: a death your pursuit. Or if a person is like
Speaker 3: in al Paso or San Diego or Imperial County more
Speaker 3: is chased ends up falling in a canal or jumping
Speaker 3: into a canal escape and drowns. The idea chase on
Speaker 3: foot and then motor vehicle pursuits are yeah, the person
Speaker 3: is being chased by Border patrol and the glosing passions.
Speaker 4: And people are chilled. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Use of force cases also include some of these chases
Speaker 3: through OPR standards and CVP standards. If spike strips are deployed,
Speaker 3: or if a vehicle is ran by a Border Patrol vehicle,
Speaker 3: that's considered use of force. So that's where a person
Speaker 3: died due to that, we would call that a use
Speaker 3: of force death. Yeah, So I guess those are the
Speaker 3: two to three different times and perceived that's a.
Speaker 1: Great do and so like the yeah, those are as
Speaker 1: you say they're broken down the database, right, but in
Speaker 1: the spreadsheet they are combined. What is this data show
Speaker 1: us about? Like, I guess if we look at the
Speaker 1: last half decade or so, let's go back to like
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, right, border police, Like, what does it show
Speaker 1: us about like title eight, Title forty two, we're like
Speaker 1: a little too close to the Biden asylum band to
Speaker 1: have I guess, like good data on that yet. But
Speaker 1: do you see a clear pattern in like the border
Speaker 1: rhetoric and border quote unquote enforcement and the amount of
Speaker 1: death or the type of death?
Speaker 3: Well, definitely, yeah, it's it's immediately clear. I mean, even
Speaker 3: Biden's asylum band, I think there's an immediate effect. I
Speaker 3: mean even just with as a normal death volunteer, we
Speaker 3: started seeing people crossing the border, crossing the desert that
Speaker 3: just never would have yet made the attempt previously, you know,
Speaker 3: and then started to see as people reported in death
Speaker 3: data too. So I think all of that is pretty clear.
Speaker 3: So with Trump's restrictions on asylum, I think the biggest thing,
Speaker 3: honestly was all the metering policies rather than just Title
Speaker 3: forty two or like Protection Book protocols or any of that.
Speaker 3: It was just the fact that people weren't allowed to
Speaker 3: access the border country.
Speaker 4: Yeah, ended up kind of like going.
Speaker 3: Around to enter like other places in the desert border
Speaker 3: sort of pick them up. Then all this started happening, Yeah,
Speaker 3: And so it's kind of like a trickle in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 3: twenty twenty, a little bit more in twenty twenty one,
Speaker 3: and then twenty twenty two you suddenly see just huge
Speaker 3: amounts of people from countries other than Mexico and Central
Speaker 3: America starting to show up in the data. And then
Speaker 3: also like people who clearly were trying to seek asylum
Speaker 3: showing up in this death data all the way up
Speaker 3: until it slowed down after you know, the end of
Speaker 3: three twenty three, and then but definitely continue.
Speaker 1: Through through for Yeah, definitely, like I speaking from my
Speaker 1: own experience on the border here, we saw the same thing, right,
Speaker 1: like people crossing you wouldn't have seen making that crossing
Speaker 1: in places at times that they wouldn't have crossed, you know,
Speaker 1: before the Biden asylum ban, and like that definitely resulted
Speaker 1: in I mean there was a weekend in September where
Speaker 1: I think five people died September twenty twenty four, but
Speaker 1: we had a heat wave and like it immediately resulted
Speaker 1: in multiple fatalities that like wouldn't have been the case previously.
Speaker 1: I wonder, like what is this data set in terms
Speaker 1: of like recommendations, right in terms of like how we
Speaker 1: can use this data set? Obviously, we're at a time
Speaker 1: when I when I guess the Trump administration like had
Speaker 1: its complete asylum band stayed, but we're back at like
Speaker 1: people can't in good faith like turn up to a
Speaker 1: port of entry anymore and just be like, Hey, I'd
Speaker 1: like to claim asylum and really really hope for the best.
Speaker 1: Like what does this data set tell us in terms
Speaker 1: of like what policies kill more people? And like I guess,
Speaker 1: like like what recommendations arise from the data in terms obviously,
Speaker 1: I guess bit of the recommendation is to have laws
Speaker 1: that allow people to fucking enter this country and claim
Speaker 1: asylum without walking across a desert. But that seems like
Speaker 1: it's too much to ask, So like what do we
Speaker 1: learn in terms of like specific policies that are particularly
Speaker 1: fatal and like the ways that those that could be
Speaker 1: mitigated and if it's not already by like water drops
Speaker 1: and search.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a hard question, just because talking to you know,
Speaker 3: the older people and the more death's been around since
Speaker 3: like kind of the early years of prevention to the terrence. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they thought about sort of feeling like you know, when
Speaker 3: they were first out there, being like, man, this is
Speaker 3: really unsustainable. We can't out here all the time like this.
Speaker 3: Maybe like a few more years we could probably handle
Speaker 3: and then hopefully this prevention to the terrence thing will
Speaker 3: have like kind of stopped. They'll see like this is unsustainable,
Speaker 3: and then here we are all these years later and
Speaker 3: it's worse than it's et in. Yeah, And the original
Speaker 3: prevention to the terance policy is like this strategy of
Speaker 3: essentially killing people and the hopes, you know, people will
Speaker 3: stop trying to cross the border or something, and kind
Speaker 3: of just is the original thing that it's really hard
Speaker 3: to get away from. Yeah, the fact that we're now
Speaker 3: applying the same strategy of death and suffering to asylum
Speaker 3: seekers is really horrifying.
Speaker 4: So I think, yeah, Number one, open up courts.
Speaker 3: Eventually to allow asylum secret to seek asylum, bring back
Speaker 3: like even the sort of minimum asylum projections that we
Speaker 3: had back then. Other things like how people are dying
Speaker 3: really matters. Yeah, So for example, in the Lapasto sector,
Speaker 3: there was very very few deaths in twenty fourteen. The
Speaker 3: last couple of years it's been the deadliest single small
Speaker 3: area in the entire border, and a lot of that
Speaker 3: was just because the order has just become so militarized
Speaker 3: that even this like urban area where you know, people
Speaker 3: are dying a mile from town, people are dying in town.
Speaker 3: We I was part of the recovery where we this
Speaker 3: person was on a road, had been there for about
Speaker 3: three days dead. It was about forty feet from the
Speaker 3: busiest the busiest road in the entire town. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: that's just not something that really fits in with the
Speaker 3: ordinary narrative like prevenual Tuiterians people getting pushed out to
Speaker 3: these more remote areas, and I think just a level
Speaker 3: of militarization is just up to the level that it
Speaker 3: really is just deadly kind of. I mean even yeah,
Speaker 3: all these deaths in San Diego, as you know, also
Speaker 3: do so like all these Walfall deaths are pretty much
Speaker 3: all since like twenty seventeen or even more recently, so
Speaker 3: the construction of all this new border wall, you can
Speaker 3: point very directly to a huge amount of deaths.
Speaker 4: Just caused by walfalls.
Speaker 3: There's the canals in Imperial County and al Paso that
Speaker 3: there a huge amount of people. There's Alpaso right now
Speaker 3: is in the process of revamping their whole canal system.
Speaker 4: Would be a great opportunity.
Speaker 3: To add some sort of like safety systems in place
Speaker 3: so that people don't die. Yeah, there is all the
Speaker 3: pursue deaths which now are not just being caused the
Speaker 3: border patrol, but also like the Texas Department of Public
Speaker 3: Public Safety now that Operation Lone Star has helped up
Speaker 3: all these things where the kinds of death and the
Speaker 3: kinds of people dying and all that stuff has changed
Speaker 3: and increased really drastically in the last few years.
Speaker 4: And you can kind of point to a lot of them.
Speaker 3: But also it's like, yeah, I don't know, it's hard
Speaker 3: to really have any smart thoughts on it. Besides, just
Speaker 3: like bore control is underformable and just needs to be disbanded.
Speaker 1: Entire Yeah, and like this whole border regime, right, the
Speaker 1: whole idea of like an iron border that we enforce
Speaker 1: in a physical space. The point of it is to
Speaker 1: kill people, Like the point of it is to hurt
Speaker 1: people by having perfectly innocent people who you'd be happy
Speaker 1: to have with your neighbor die in the desert.
Speaker 2: Like that's that is, that is the policy goal.
Speaker 1: Like I'm just looking at like I'm looking at Pinto Canyon,
Speaker 1: which San Diego people will know. It's like it's pretty
Speaker 1: Like don't if you're listening to this, don't go to
Speaker 1: Pinto Canyon.
Speaker 2: You might die.
Speaker 1: It's not a place to just go looking around if
Speaker 1: you're not experienced traveling out in the desert. But like
Speaker 1: even Pinter Canyon is Nali, But looking along the wall,
Speaker 1: the wall kills way more people than this rugged and
Speaker 1: difficult piece of terrain in the middle of nowhere. Like
Speaker 1: it's it's things that we have paid a lot of
Speaker 1: money for that kill the most people. And that's pretty
Speaker 1: brutal to confront. One of the other things that you
Speaker 1: guys were able to determine was that like a number
Speaker 1: of United States residents had died right in this data sect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, can you explain that for people totally?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like you said, there's people you'd love to have
Speaker 3: as your neighbor dying in all these places, and not
Speaker 3: just that, but your actual neighbor. The amount of people
Speaker 3: whose main residence listed was just in San Diego County,
Speaker 3: in Oceanside, in Bakersfield and Indianapolis, places that we've all
Speaker 3: been to. We were able to record for San Diego
Speaker 3: County and a few other counties a lot of where
Speaker 3: people actually lived in some of the circumstances for why
Speaker 3: they were crossing through the desert in the first place.
Speaker 3: A lot of it is people who are very recently deported,
Speaker 3: or who just traveled to Mexico because they had to
Speaker 3: get some paperwork done or wanted to visit family or
Speaker 3: things like this. Just had entire lives in the United
Speaker 3: States and then and then passed away on the way
Speaker 3: back ends of the country.
Speaker 4: Yeah, including them.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's really heartbreaking to you can see, there's
Speaker 3: there's a lot of cases where the person who actually
Speaker 3: finds the body or recovers the body is not there
Speaker 3: some family members or their spouse or their children, even
Speaker 3: which only happens because you know, bord of Trol is
Speaker 3: generally not that interested in recovering bodies or in looking
Speaker 3: for people who are lost. So often often it'll be
Speaker 3: somebody's spouse who comes. I mean, when it's actually the
Speaker 3: first person on the stea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's very common right for volunteers to be
Speaker 1: alerted via like you know, I know some of the
Speaker 1: certain rescue groups are alerted by like Instagram for instance,
Speaker 1: that like someone is missing, right, It's not like there
Speaker 1: is like despite this being massively overfunded, you can't just
Speaker 1: call and they won't just send out an ambulance like
Speaker 1: a lot a lot of a lot of times it
Speaker 1: is either the family members or like a bunch of
Speaker 1: volunteers just driving out there in the trucks at last night.
Speaker 1: Like I can remember in running into some migrants in
Speaker 1: like twenty twenty three and then being like, hey, there
Speaker 1: are some other people down there, and I was like where,
Speaker 1: how do you know? And they found them on a
Speaker 1: snapchat mat wow, and like that that was you know,
Speaker 1: the only thing that maybe said those people's life. And
Speaker 1: yet it it's pretty brutal to think that like there's
Speaker 1: still really there's no one where there are people you
Speaker 1: can call, I'm help you, But it's not the people
Speaker 1: who are getting billions of dollars. Let's talk very briefly
Speaker 1: before we finish up about deaths outside of the United States.
Speaker 2: I see you have some data.
Speaker 1: Like obviously my familiarity is with the Daddy and GAP,
Speaker 1: which good luck getting. I don't think that data exists.
Speaker 1: But like, I see you have a number of data
Speaker 1: points within Mexico. Can you explain like how you came
Speaker 1: across thovis and to what extent that data is if
Speaker 1: at all like representative or complete.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's not at all representative or complete. It
Speaker 3: all comes from the National Institute of Integration, the.
Speaker 4: I and M in Mexico. Yeah, I guess.
Speaker 3: Actually the water working People's VETA are they're like sort
Speaker 3: of like quot n flot entity and it were migrants
Speaker 3: instituted by the government of Mexico in Mexico, and so
Speaker 3: we through the Mexican Golooya, you're able to get data
Speaker 3: from the group of veta, which throughout the years there's
Speaker 3: been kind of like changing locations of offices, so the
Speaker 3: data we had was just from where their offices are.
Speaker 3: So it's usually just sort of like a number of
Speaker 3: deaths for that particular office for that particular year. It's
Speaker 3: very very limited, and there's many, many, many deaths that
Speaker 3: we then have other data to show that doesn't exist here.
Speaker 3: So it's really just planet right, Yeah, shouldn't be taken
Speaker 3: as any kind of like representative sample, or it's just
Speaker 3: the one piece of Mexican data that we were able to.
Speaker 4: Quickly put on the map.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we did get other data from like specific states
Speaker 3: in Mexico, but we through because of time and capacity
Speaker 3: and just the data itself we were unable to turn
Speaker 3: back into.
Speaker 4: Yet we wouldn't do something with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it still remains true that like
Speaker 1: the single deadliest mind of this journey is the United
Speaker 1: States border, at least from this data that you're seeing.
Speaker 1: Would you say this data still supports that.
Speaker 4: Probably I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, probably, I just don't want to say, because
Speaker 3: the data is just so bad in so many places,
Speaker 3: especially in Mexico abought.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm thinking of like the Daddy in right, Like
Speaker 1: it's it's very deadly. I've seen people die there, Like
Speaker 1: it's obviously a very very difficult and rugged place. But
Speaker 1: I think comparatively, probably more people die in the US border,
Speaker 1: just because there were more of them and because people
Speaker 1: come like people are ye, not everyone has to cross
Speaker 1: a dairy end, like people can fly to Mexico or
Speaker 1: somewhere further south, right and then come up that way
Speaker 1: where if people want to find this data, or perhaps
Speaker 1: as someone who's like a ninja with with data and
Speaker 1: data visualization, they want to offer to help, like where
Speaker 1: can people find this and how can they reach out
Speaker 1: to no more desks if they'd like to help in
Speaker 1: some way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So just on the normal DOES website, we can
Speaker 3: see the report on the map and all that stuff.
Speaker 3: And in there there's a link to the media outreach email,
Speaker 3: which in the next couple of months is my email,
Speaker 3: and just feel free to send send an email there.
Speaker 3: And yeah, happy to.
Speaker 4: Give greater accent right now.
Speaker 3: The data is pretty anonymized for privacy and safety. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of the fields that we've kind
Speaker 3: of talked about that don't look here in the public database,
Speaker 3: so happy to share that with researchers, activists, advocacy.
Speaker 4: People, chain us, things like that.
Speaker 3: And also we desperately would have a lot to help, so
Speaker 3: you're interested in looking at some spreadsheets?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, cool, great, Thank you so much your time
Speaker 1: and for all the work on this. I know this
Speaker 1: was a lot of work getting those records and I
Speaker 1: think it. I know it gives us something to point
Speaker 1: to to show how many people this this border shit
Speaker 1: is killing totally.
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