WEBVTT - Mapping Border Deaths 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:05.600 Alsome Media. 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:08.520 Hello everyone, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.240 It's me James today and I'm very lucky to be 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:14.280 joined by Bryce from No More Deaths And what we're 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.040 going to talk about today is this really excellent piece 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:22.759 of data visualization and research that depicts a very sad topic, 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.160 which is the deaths of migrant centering the United States. 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:27.960 And Bryce, I know he's done a lot of work 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.880 on this, so welcome to the show. Bryce, Thank you, Yeah, 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:34.360 you're welcome. I guess maybe we can start off. I'm 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.159 looking at this data visualization on a map right now, 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:39.279 and we'll have links in the show notes for other 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:42.960 people who want to look at it. Can you explain 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:46.000 what this data set is? 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:51.280 Yeah, So we collected through a bunch of different sources, 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:56.160 medical examiners, Justices of the Peace, SHERIFFISAL partner, CBPS owned data, 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.600 just a bunch of data on individual micro along the 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:01.680 US Mexican border. 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.160 And so this is different data through each. 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.000 Source, but generally we tried to get a lot of 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:10.520 demographic data, location data, positive death, and at least some 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.440 form of the instigram laertive to kind of get a 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:14.959 little bit of the context of. 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:16.199 How each of these people guide. 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:18.920 Yeah, if people are looking at the map, they can 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.640 see various colored dots, right, and they can click on 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.280 that dot and that will give them the fiscal year 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.720 the border trail sector. In some cases you'll see like 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:32.000 the type of death, maybe a gender and age, things 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.960 like that. Looking at it, like it's one of those 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.680 things that maybe is more emotionally difficult to view if 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.640 you're more familiar, Like I can look at these dots 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.319 and I can think of places I've been. I can 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:47.880 even think of that the day I was there, and 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:52.120 it's quite know, it's impactful to see that all these 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.000 people have died in places I know. So well, perhaps 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:58.880 we can explain, like the scale of this is huge, right, 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:00.800 do you know how many exactly how many data points 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:01.640 there are on here? 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:04.480 I think there's something like solve a thirteen thousand. 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:08.280 Yeah, it's fast, which overall is like not a great 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:12.000 sort of like indicator of how many people have actually 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.920 died or even know how many people could be reported 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.560 to have died, just because the Texas Day it all 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:18.239 is so walky. 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:21.120 Yeah, let's get into that. 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.840 Then let's talk about maybe the sources for this data, 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:29.720 and then maybe perhaps how your estimates are much high, 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.400 even with some of the emissions. Like the data that 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.480 you have tends to show under reporting, So like can 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.200 you explain first like where does this data come from 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:41.120 and how did you get it? You were saying the 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.880 Texas numbers are lower, but can you explain how like 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.920 there are these multiple jurisdictions and how you can't just 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:48.760 like ask someone for this information. 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:52.200 Yeah, there's a new people we're able to disask for it. Well, 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:56.800 generally it all comes from formal public records requests from 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.120 medical examiners. When we're lucky because medical examiners US we 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.200 have really good easily shaped double data. 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:05.639 So so we did for San Diego County, Yeah, that're 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:06.359 very good. 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:09.880 Pima County, the state of New Mexico, Al Passo, other 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.440 places have a corner that are associated with for sheriff department, 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:17.239 and that's usually a little dice year they're a little 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:21.200 more reluctant to give up records. The Imperial County, for 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:25.560 Yuma County and then Texas it's just like a medical 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:31.440 legal nightmare. So there's if smaller counties don't have medical examiners, 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.440 they just had justice into the peace culture. 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:35.160 Part of like the courts and. 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.840 They'll go out and investigate deaths and if an autopsy 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.040 is needed, they'll send it off to another county to 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.560 get an autopsy. There's a huge amount of counties in 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.680 Texas like this. So that data all came from this researcher, 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.840 Stephanie Luster from the University of Texas Austin, who is 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.200 working on a different project, but was gracious enough to 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.960 share everything that she had collected. But that was like 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.680 just a huge amount of work physically going to each 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.600 of these counties, looking at paper records from justices of 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:07.520 the peace, writing down all that data. There's some that 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:11.480 comes from like sheriff's department, some that comes from. 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.880 Various other sources. So the Texas data and some of it. 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.600 For example, Wegg County Medical Examiner, they don't give up 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.279 their data to anybody, and there's a lot of issues 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.760 with them potentially, like not having actually performed autopsy on 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.159 a lot of autopsies on a lot of migrants, and 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.120 there's some potential bookcases about that going on. 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:32.360 But yeah, so. 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.719 Texas is really messing and a lot of it you'll notice, 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:36.719 like Texas has a lot of. 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:37.600 The purple dots. 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:42.560 Yeah, the purple dots are their location data from Border 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:46.600 patrols database and so that ends in twenty eighteen. So 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:50.719 we have data possible needs border patrol over not location data. Yeah, 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:52.920 and so a lot of Texas on that being this 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.680 just the border patrol data unless we have loved specific 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:02.760 access to that places Justice of the Peace data. It's 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.000 so the Texas data is pretty limited for about reason. 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.560 Yeah, you can see a sort of very few red dots, 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:14.000 which which are your your other data sources like in 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.560 Texas aside from it. So maybe Brooks County you're able 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.799 to get Justice to the Peace data there because yeah, 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.080 the density is profound. 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.600 Yeah, it's just the So it's the Brooks County Chasta 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.880 Department that actually puts together that data, and they're really 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.680 keen on the whole thing. Okay, And partially it's because 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.480 the data exists, but partially it really wills just to 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:38.120 reach fluster death in that area because of a checkpoint 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.040 south of there where people will get dropped off south 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.599 of the checkpoint pipe around and it's just like massive, 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.600 massive open grade yard in Brooks County. 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:49.240 Jeez. 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:51.599 Yeah, I don't think I spent much time in that 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:53.920 part of Texas, but certainly like some of these other 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.440 ones that I'm much more familiar with. Let's talk about 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.320 the CBP data, right, you mentioned it there. One of 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.440 the things you found was that CBP has a systemic 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:10.200 issue with undercounting deaths, right yeah, So where does that 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:10.640 come from? 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.960 So I've heard from I guess for years Humane Borders 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.479 and Pema County Medical Examiner has been documenting this since 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.440 at least twenty fourteen. The major undercount on border patrols data. 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:24.680 But something I've here a lot is just that it's 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:28.280 cases where border thetow wasn't personally involved in the search 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.440 and that they had like changed their coounting system to 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.240 only be counting cases where they were involved. And I 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.760 think that may account for some of it. 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:37.200 But in order. 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:41.599 To compare these deaths, border patrols data is just really 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:46.400 gnarly and messy, and that there's typos, there's misspelling. States 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.560 are wrong, ages are wrong, genders are wrong. So you really, 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:52.640 in order to compare them, you really have to go 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:54.240 person by person. 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:56.200 Go down the list, find the death and in. 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.760 Order patrol database, look at Medical Examiner data on find 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.120 of them person by person. So because we have so 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.400 much of the incident narratives from the medical examiners, we 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.080 can actually tell when Border patrol was involved, and so 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.360 we mark when border patrols involved when they're not involved, 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.720 and then when that case doesn't actually get counted by 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:15.360 Border patrol. 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:16.600 Okay, and it. 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:20.440 Doesn't actually really line up. There's not a huge correlation there. 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.600 I mean there is some correlation, like older skeletal remains 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.520 things like that often won't get counted, but generally there 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.679 are a lot of cases where they directly involved where 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.760 even they were the first responders on the scene to 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:35.760 a distress call or any number of things, where that 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.440 person won't end up in Vorda patrols database. And then 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:40.520 other cases where it seems like they had no involvement, 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:41.880 that person ends. 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:43.560 Up being in Vortical Patrol's database. 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:47.000 So they've been in trouble with the GAO multiple times 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.640 for under counting or in prop of the accounting or 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.640 recording these debts, and so they have access to medical 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:57.320 examiner data. Medical examiners send them the data, they just 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.960 don't use it. We often also noticed that, uh, the 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:03.560 causes of death really don't match up in a lot 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:07.520 of like really specific cases like yeah, for Walfalls, for instance, 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.720 was the most notable one. There'll be a huge amount 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.760 of cases that medical examiner will say one force trauma, 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.800 and then Border Patrols data will say medical examiner and 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:22.800 detainment or exposure or any number of other things, which 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.320 like for the most part, causes the death seem to 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.240 line up. So the fact that these Waalfall deaths it 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.280 happens to not line up is like, you know, I 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.720 don't want to assume they have bad intent, although obviously 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.640 Bordemtrol is bad intent, but it seems like it happens 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:40.960 regularly enough that it's hard to feel like it's not 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:44.120 as somewhat intentional that the cases that they're kind of 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.480 choosing to change the causes of death. 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:50.120 For right, So let get obfuscates the lethality of the 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:52.439 border war, right length, it's the amount of people who 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:52.960 it kills. 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:54.880 Yeah, I mean to a huge degree too. 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.240 I mean the fact that Bordertrol's data is kind of 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:00.200 our only source of data for MCAN deaths and then 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.560 specifically for deaths caused by border patrol or like Walfall deaths, 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.640 means that the amount of death that we need the 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.960 public has access to, like Walhall death, for instance, is 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:11.360 just a drop in the bucket. 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:12.400 Compared to what's actually happening. 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:14.760 So all of the research and reporting and all the 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.640 stuff that happens around at these CC related deaths is 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.640 drawing off just like truly false numbers. 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:26.120 Yeah, yeah, and that leads to people growing bad conclusions, 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:40.920 right right. The other thing that you found is that 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.360 like that there seems to be an underreporting of in 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.680 custody deaths, right, or an undercounting of people who die 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:49.679 in custody. So can you explain how you're able to 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.720 ascertain that different between the in custody death recorded by 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:55.640 the Office of Professional Responsibility. 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:57.760 That's just the ones that you found, right, right. 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:02.360 So the opposite Professional Responsibility is part of CBP, and 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.240 they're supposed to be recording all the saw CBP related deaths, 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:11.280 including according to the Deats and Custody Reporting Act to 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.120 like twenty thirteen or whatever it was, army destin plustody. 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.920 There's a really specific definition of what in custody means, 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:21.000 and so we tried to follow pretty strictly what that 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:25.000 definition was to kind of make our own assessments using 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:26.480 the incident narratives. 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.880 Yeah, I'm curious what does it mean, Like I'm thinking 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.240 about door intention, right, Like does that count as in custody? 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:33.840 Yeah? 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.080 So any only time if the person is in the 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.840 process of being apprehended, if the person has been apprehended, 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:41.680 if a person has been detained, as a person is 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:45.600 physically in custody, bordertrol, in a bordertrol vehicle, in a 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.360 CP facility, all those things would count. Is inculsody okay, 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:52.400 which is important because and at least one of the cases, 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.720 the border patrol agent involved said the person wasn't in custody, 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:59.040 he was just detained, which for the purposes of reporting, 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:00.320 there's actually no difference. 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.760 Right, Yeah, but you said that clearly to. 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.720 Not have it be labeled as in custody death right, 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.400 and what it seems like that ended up not being 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:11.880 able toserve in custody death So it's definitely I think 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:14.760 they're they're aware the fact that these are being requoted 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:16.240 and kind of tron not to have. 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.600 That due to case they have too many of them, 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.200 like appear Another interesting data interesting is your own word, 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:25.480 but another data point here was the amount of death 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:29.560 caused by pursuit right or in pursuit I guess maybe 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.240 you should just explain what pursuit is to people if 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:33.920 they're not aware. 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.840 Yeah, so there's two kinds of pursuit. We listen at 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.640 the same gear on the database. You can see the 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:45.120 difference of there's chases on a motor vehicle and there's 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:49.080 chases on foot. So for example, a person's getting chase 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:52.600 through the desert and collapses and dies, they'll be considered 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.839 a death your pursuit. Or if a person is like 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.480 in al Paso or San Diego or Imperial County more 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:03.560 is chased ends up falling in a canal or jumping 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.720 into a canal escape and drowns. The idea chase on 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:12.520 foot and then motor vehicle pursuits are yeah, the person 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.840 is being chased by Border patrol and the glosing passions. 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:16.640 And people are chilled. Yeah. 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:20.439 Use of force cases also include some of these chases 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:25.800 through OPR standards and CVP standards. If spike strips are deployed, 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.960 or if a vehicle is ran by a Border Patrol vehicle, 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.480 that's considered use of force. So that's where a person 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:34.959 died due to that, we would call that a use 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.439 of force death. Yeah, So I guess those are the 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.360 two to three different times and perceived that's a. 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.160 Great do and so like the yeah, those are as 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.320 you say they're broken down the database, right, but in 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:51.360 the spreadsheet they are combined. What is this data show 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.840 us about? Like, I guess if we look at the 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.360 last half decade or so, let's go back to like 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:02.280 twenty sixteen, right, border police, Like, what does it show 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.520 us about like title eight, Title forty two, we're like 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.200 a little too close to the Biden asylum band to 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:14.320 have I guess, like good data on that yet. But 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:18.400 do you see a clear pattern in like the border 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:23.040 rhetoric and border quote unquote enforcement and the amount of 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:24.240 death or the type of death? 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:30.000 Well, definitely, yeah, it's it's immediately clear. I mean, even 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.400 Biden's asylum band, I think there's an immediate effect. I 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.080 mean even just with as a normal death volunteer, we 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.920 started seeing people crossing the border, crossing the desert that 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.120 just never would have yet made the attempt previously, you know, 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.160 and then started to see as people reported in death 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:49.120 data too. So I think all of that is pretty clear. 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:55.240 So with Trump's restrictions on asylum, I think the biggest thing, 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.800 honestly was all the metering policies rather than just Title 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:01.640 forty two or like Protection Book protocols or any of that. 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:04.320 It was just the fact that people weren't allowed to 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:05.600 access the border country. 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:07.880 Yeah, ended up kind of like going. 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:11.080 Around to enter like other places in the desert border 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.000 sort of pick them up. Then all this started happening, Yeah, 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.440 And so it's kind of like a trickle in twenty nineteen, 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.040 twenty twenty, a little bit more in twenty twenty one, 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.800 and then twenty twenty two you suddenly see just huge 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:26.360 amounts of people from countries other than Mexico and Central 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:29.600 America starting to show up in the data. And then 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:33.880 also like people who clearly were trying to seek asylum 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.160 showing up in this death data all the way up 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.680 until it slowed down after you know, the end of 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:45.080 three twenty three, and then but definitely continue. 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:49.400 Through through for Yeah, definitely, like I speaking from my 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.800 own experience on the border here, we saw the same thing, right, 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.280 like people crossing you wouldn't have seen making that crossing 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:01.240 in places at times that they wouldn't have crossed, you know, 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.080 before the Biden asylum ban, and like that definitely resulted 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.280 in I mean there was a weekend in September where 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:12.480 I think five people died September twenty twenty four, but 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.400 we had a heat wave and like it immediately resulted 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:19.880 in multiple fatalities that like wouldn't have been the case previously. 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:25.120 I wonder, like what is this data set in terms 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.560 of like recommendations, right in terms of like how we 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.920 can use this data set? Obviously, we're at a time 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.320 when I when I guess the Trump administration like had 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:36.960 its complete asylum band stayed, but we're back at like 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:39.680 people can't in good faith like turn up to a 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:41.440 port of entry anymore and just be like, Hey, I'd 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:43.800 like to claim asylum and really really hope for the best. 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.280 Like what does this data set tell us in terms 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.640 of like what policies kill more people? And like I guess, 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:53.040 like like what recommendations arise from the data in terms obviously, 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.080 I guess bit of the recommendation is to have laws 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.640 that allow people to fucking enter this country and claim 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.840 asylum without walking across a desert. But that seems like 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:03.520 it's too much to ask, So like what do we 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.800 learn in terms of like specific policies that are particularly 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:11.600 fatal and like the ways that those that could be 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:15.920 mitigated and if it's not already by like water drops 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:16.280 and search. 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:21.320 Yeah, that's a hard question, just because talking to you know, 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.000 the older people and the more death's been around since 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:27.560 like kind of the early years of prevention to the terrence. Yeah, 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.080 they thought about sort of feeling like you know, when 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.000 they were first out there, being like, man, this is 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.120 really unsustainable. We can't out here all the time like this. 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:37.840 Maybe like a few more years we could probably handle 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:40.760 and then hopefully this prevention to the terrence thing will 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.480 have like kind of stopped. They'll see like this is unsustainable, 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:45.800 and then here we are all these years later and 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.120 it's worse than it's et in. Yeah, And the original 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.080 prevention to the terance policy is like this strategy of 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:54.800 essentially killing people and the hopes, you know, people will 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:58.240 stop trying to cross the border or something, and kind 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.000 of just is the original thing that it's really hard 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.520 to get away from. Yeah, the fact that we're now 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:08.440 applying the same strategy of death and suffering to asylum 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:10.439 seekers is really horrifying. 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:14.200 So I think, yeah, Number one, open up courts. 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:16.880 Eventually to allow asylum secret to seek asylum, bring back 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.720 like even the sort of minimum asylum projections that we 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:23.240 had back then. Other things like how people are dying 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:27.359 really matters. Yeah, So for example, in the Lapasto sector, 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.720 there was very very few deaths in twenty fourteen. The 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.960 last couple of years it's been the deadliest single small 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.960 area in the entire border, and a lot of that 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.800 was just because the order has just become so militarized 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.880 that even this like urban area where you know, people 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.560 are dying a mile from town, people are dying in town. 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.159 We I was part of the recovery where we this 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:51.879 person was on a road, had been there for about 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:55.800 three days dead. It was about forty feet from the 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.879 busiest the busiest road in the entire town. Yeah, and 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.119 that's just not something that really fits in with the 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.960 ordinary narrative like prevenual Tuiterians people getting pushed out to 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:10.359 these more remote areas, and I think just a level 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.840 of militarization is just up to the level that it 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.480 really is just deadly kind of. I mean even yeah, 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.080 all these deaths in San Diego, as you know, also 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:21.760 do so like all these Walfall deaths are pretty much 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:24.800 all since like twenty seventeen or even more recently, so 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.200 the construction of all this new border wall, you can 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:29.960 point very directly to a huge amount of deaths. 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:31.000 Just caused by walfalls. 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:37.040 There's the canals in Imperial County and al Paso that 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.080 there a huge amount of people. There's Alpaso right now 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.359 is in the process of revamping their whole canal system. 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:44.680 Would be a great opportunity. 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:46.880 To add some sort of like safety systems in place 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.440 so that people don't die. Yeah, there is all the 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:52.399 pursue deaths which now are not just being caused the 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.840 border patrol, but also like the Texas Department of Public 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.280 Public Safety now that Operation Lone Star has helped up 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:03.040 all these things where the kinds of death and the 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:06.880 kinds of people dying and all that stuff has changed 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:10.280 and increased really drastically in the last few years. 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.240 And you can kind of point to a lot of them. 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.080 But also it's like, yeah, I don't know, it's hard 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.520 to really have any smart thoughts on it. Besides, just 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:22.639 like bore control is underformable and just needs to be disbanded. 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:26.119 Entire Yeah, and like this whole border regime, right, the 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.280 whole idea of like an iron border that we enforce 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.920 in a physical space. The point of it is to 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.800 kill people, Like the point of it is to hurt 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:40.879 people by having perfectly innocent people who you'd be happy 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:42.840 to have with your neighbor die in the desert. 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:45.520 Like that's that is, that is the policy goal. 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.200 Like I'm just looking at like I'm looking at Pinto Canyon, 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.040 which San Diego people will know. It's like it's pretty 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:52.440 Like don't if you're listening to this, don't go to 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:53.159 Pinto Canyon. 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:54.160 You might die. 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.959 It's not a place to just go looking around if 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.560 you're not experienced traveling out in the desert. But like 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:03.640 even Pinter Canyon is Nali, But looking along the wall, 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.440 the wall kills way more people than this rugged and 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:09.840 difficult piece of terrain in the middle of nowhere. Like 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.040 it's it's things that we have paid a lot of 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.680 money for that kill the most people. And that's pretty 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:31.000 brutal to confront. One of the other things that you 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:34.119 guys were able to determine was that like a number 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:38.960 of United States residents had died right in this data sect. 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:42.200 Yeah, can you explain that for people totally? 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:42.320 So? 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:44.840 Yeah, Like you said, there's people you'd love to have 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.960 as your neighbor dying in all these places, and not 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.679 just that, but your actual neighbor. The amount of people 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:55.119 whose main residence listed was just in San Diego County, 0:20:55.240 --> 0:21:01.120 in Oceanside, in Bakersfield and Indianapolis, places that we've all 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:04.680 been to. We were able to record for San Diego 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:08.080 County and a few other counties a lot of where 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:12.720 people actually lived in some of the circumstances for why 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:14.560 they were crossing through the desert in the first place. 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:17.800