WEBVTT - Truckers Are Working Countless Hours That They're Not Getting Paid For 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:14.280 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.480 I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy, you know, 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:21.080 we've done a lot of truck driving episodes on the show, 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.239 by note, but it is kind of crazy that we 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.680 haven't actually spoken to a truck driver all trucking all 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:30.160 the time, except with the drivers themselves apparently. Yeah, it's 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:33.000 kind of bad. We we really, you know, because essentially 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:35.480 people talk about poor conditions, they talk about poor pay, 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:37.640 they talk about certain ways. You know, there's a lot 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:40.640 of talking the industry about a so called truck driver shortage, 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:42.800 which is this talking point media has reported for a 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.879 long time. But how can you discuss these things, you know, 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:50.519 without actually hearing from a truck driver. Why perhaps the 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:54.400 industry has had trouble hiring and retaining drivers, right, but 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.680 also just talking about some of the supply chain issues 0:00:57.720 --> 0:00:59.800 as we happen for the past two years or so, 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:03.680 and all the talk about you know, things being stuck 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:06.640 at the ports or things being stuck at rail yards 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.160 and truck drivers getting caught up in those and having 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.680 to wait hours and hours and hours to pick up 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.720 or drop off a load. But we haven't actually spoken 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:18.680 to the people who are living that very experience, right. 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:20.959 So one dynamic, and we talked about it on a 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:25.280 recent episode with Rachel Premac, is this fact that truck 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.080 drivers are paid by the mile, right, and you even 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:29.959 see it on the back of trucks. Often when they're 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:32.040 trying to recruit drivers, they talk about how much you 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:35.640 can get paid per mile, which has the drawback potentially 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:38.640 of you don't get paid for time. And therefore, if 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:42.000 you're at a warehouse and you're depositing a load or 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.920 picking up some goods, you can wait around for a 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:49.000 really long time, potentially hours if the warehouse is inefficient 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:51.680 or blocked or just sort of very crowded, which a 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.680 lot of infrastructure has been over the last couple of years, 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:57.760 and you're not getting paid for that time. It's detention, 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.200 is they call it in the industry, And if it's 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:03.600 really bad, if it's an efficient, that's just hours of 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.400 your life wasted because it's not a mile, right. And 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.200 so the supply chain crisis has kind of shown a 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.280 light on this practice, and the question now is whether 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:15.040 or not it starts to change, because clearly, if you're 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.160 talking about how difficult it is to get stuff from 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:22.000 point A to point B. And a big part of 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.000 the choke point is while people are just waiting all 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:27.640 day to pick that stuff up at a particular port 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.919 or rail yard or depot or whatever. Then you could 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.440 see people maybe want to start to alleviate some of 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.360 that weight time and right. And that's what happens, I 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.200 think in a so called supply chain crisis, is you 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.400 noticed various choke points or an efficient that you maybe 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.119 you tolerated private or previously, or that weren't a big deal, 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.560 and so, okay, we have this problem where people are 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:54.079 wasting their time at the warehouse is waiting for load 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:56.760 or unload, but whatever, it's okay because things are still 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.360 moving smoothly. When you get the real seas up and 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:02.160 you're like, oh, these are like dramatic inefficiencies and the 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.880 cost of adjustment falls on the truck drivers themselves because 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.040 they're the ones that have to essentially eat the cost 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:11.480 by wasting time. Yeah, exactly. So when you get these 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:13.960 choke points, as you mentioned, it seems like a good 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.400 time to sort of evaluate the process on a whole 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:19.920 and what can be done to alleviate them. And you know, 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:21.720 some people are like, oh, it's apps and we need 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.000 like algorithms like uber and stuff like that and make 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.919 everything more efficient. But you know, at that point it's 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.239 just speculations. So let's talk to a driver and let's 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:32.799 find out what really is going on and how much 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.520 time and waste and if there are any potential solutions 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:38.720 to this issue of truck driver detention. Let's do right, 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.040 I'm really excited about our guests. We're gonna be speaking 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.800 to a truck driver and also the author of the 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:48.640 Autonomous Trucker's Substack, Gordon McGill. Gordon, thank you so much 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.680 for coming on, Odd Lots, Hello, Odd Lots, Hi Tracy, 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:53.800 Hi Joe, thank you for having me on. Thanks for 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:55.360 coming on. What do you sort of give your some 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:57.960 wary How does a truck driver get paid? And what 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:01.640 is detention? There's numerous three ways truck drivers get paid. 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.520 Some get paid by percentage of hall, some get paid 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.600 by the mile, some get paid salaries, some get paid 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.600 by the hour. It depends on what part of the 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:15.760 market you're in, what capacity you're working in, whether it's local, regional, 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.320 or over the road, or if you're like a drade 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:23.120 trucker working on ports, there's many different pay models, but 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:28.279 the pay is downstream of basically piece work and the 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.960 quoted rate that the company you work for gives to 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.800 their customer. So talk to us a little bit more 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:39.799 about driver detention then, why exactly does detention happen at all? 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:43.719 And have you, you know, personally noticed a change in 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.080 the amount of time that you're spending waiting to either 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:51.920 pick something up or drop it off. So detention is 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.159 it can be caused by any number of things. I mean, 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:59.560 you know, as they as the famous T shirt and 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:04.960 bumper sticker says, you know, ship happens, um so sometimes 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.680 it's you know, it's it's it's just you know, mechanical breakdowns, 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:15.039 personnel shortages, whatever. But with distribe the distribution of freight 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:21.120 in America, the entire system is set up and predicated 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:24.479 on the fact that all of the time efficiencies and 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:30.160 problems get downloaded onto the drivers because there's no cost 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:34.800 associated with their time, and there never has been, So 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.839 you just end up sitting and waiting and it could 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.719 be for any reason under the sun. And it's been 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.520 like that basically since forever. Do you have a sense 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.400 of like how much time you like, what's a week 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:49.839 look like for you or a month look like for you? 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:52.200 And do you have any sense of how much time 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.359 you in particular? And then maybe the industry drivers as 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.920 a whole waste in unpaid attention. So there was a 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.119 study done. I'm gonna I'm gonna quote the science seeing 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.000 as how this you know, very popular thought terminating cliche 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.359 circulates around the internet and the discourse. There was a 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.960 study done by there's like a subdivision of M I 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:18.240 T which studies logistics and trade, and they showed that 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:22.320 the average trucker in America, although they are allowed to 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:26.839 drive eleven hours a day, only drives on average about 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.400 six and a half hours because their day gets sucked 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.520 up with waiting to load and unload so much that 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:38.839 they literally lose almost you know, liketent of their available 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.200 driving time. There's been a lot of discourse, as you 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.679 guys mentioned in your opening about problems supply chain. Well, 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.040 a pretty major problem is when fortent of your available 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:55.840 trucking capacity is being held up right, right, So you 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.839 mentioned the eleven hours there, and this was gonna be 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:03.840 my next question, like don't truckers and I apologize and 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.440 advance her a very basic question but don't truckers have 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.520 like a certain limit on the amount of driving time 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:12.560 that they can do per day. But you're saying that 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.440 the waiting time doesn't factor into it, or are there 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:19.280 any sure So yeah, so it's called hours of service 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:23.200 and all truckers in America and and most other western 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:27.080 countries are governed by DHS rules. In the United States, 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.560 you're allowed to drive eleven hours a day, and you 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.960 get like a fourteen hour window to complete those eleven hours, 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.160 and then the other three hours are safe pre trip inspections, loading, 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.120 unloading on the other duties you have to take care of. 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.360 But like you know, if those other duties exceed three 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.160 hours and then eat into the eleven of driving, you 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:50.960 lose them. And that happens all the time. And again 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:53.280 as as Joe, as you guys mentioned at the beginning, 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.720 the amount of time you sit cuts into the amount 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.360 of time that you can drive. And there for the truck, 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.560 which is considered you know, an asset and a part 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:08.720 of logistics capacity is now just sitting there wasting not 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.600 making any money, right, correct me if I'm wrong, But 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.160 in the price of a trip or in the cost 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:18.600 of a trip, there are sometimes attempts to compensate for 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:22.960 expected way times or if a if a shipper has 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:27.400 a reputation for having inefficient warehouses or for long wait 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.760 times picking up or dropping off. In theory, they do 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.560 pay more to the to the owner operator or to 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.920 afraid broker, who then theory pass it along like there 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.000 is some cost to them that sometimes factored into what 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.160 they pay per mile for the trip. Well that's in theory, 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:48.200 but again because of the hyper competitive nature of the 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.240 trucking business. You know, I was speaking with an owner 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.480 operator a friend of mine the other day and he, 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.440 you know, mentioned, you know, he's always worried about you know, 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:01.000 the other guy, the other guy, the other company that's 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:04.800 willing to like forego that cost. And it's always used 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.560 as a threat um, you know, like, yeah, if you 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:09.800 guys charge us too much for the marriage time, we 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:12.760 just won't use you and we'll use another trucking company. 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:18.079 So there's this, you know, playing off um companies against 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:21.280 each other to try and remove that. Some companies do 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:25.400 pay it, typically and specialized or niche markets, there's very 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.640 low tolerance for waiting time. I drove truck in New 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:30.680 Zealand for a little while and because the cost of 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.160 doing business down there is so much higher and the 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:38.720 margins are that much thinner, they don't tolerate waiting time. 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.600 And then in other countries it's mandated that drivers get 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:46.839 paid by the hour, and because you're paying by the hour, 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:51.520 you can't waste those people's time because it's coming out 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.000 of the bottom line of the company who's holding you up. 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:59.319 Whereas in the United States there's nothing to force anybody 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:04.480 to a out for drivers time like whatsoever. So there's 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.400 a very small minority of companies that will pay for that, 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:11.400 but they're so inconsequential that the rest of the business 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.080 they just they just don't pay. Well, maybe this is 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:17.400 a good time to talk about how we ended up 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.280 with that system in the US, because, as you mentioned, like, 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:24.240 it does seem strange. You know, for most people in 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.600 the States, they work forty hour weeks and then if 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:32.120 they work over time, they'll get some sort of extra compensation, um, 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:34.840 you know, to compensate them for that. But in the 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.120 case of truckers it seems to be different. So how 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:41.600 did we end up with this system? In nineteen thirty eight, 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.600 during Roosevelt administration, they passed a piece of legislation called 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:50.520 the Fair Labor Standards Act, which included the idea of 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.320 paying people over time and included the idea of the 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:58.760 standard forty hour week, and a few different occupations were 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:05.320 exempted from that included transportation and truck drivers were explicitly 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:09.079 exempted from being paid overtime. And it's been like that 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.600 ever since. So the entire industry has built it's like 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:16.040 rate structures, the way it does business, the way it 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:21.439 pays people, the way it schedules things around the fact that, hey, 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:23.800 we don't have to pay these guys any extra for 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:27.360 their overtime, and that's fine, and we're just gonna keep 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:32.559 doing that. So they've created like a two tier system 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:36.079 where you know, you might be at a Walmart warehouse 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.600 or whatever distribution center and everybody that works there gets 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.040 paid over time if they have to work for the hours, 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.360 except the dozens or hundreds of truckers sitting outside in 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.840 their cabs waiting to get loaded or unloaded. So what 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.240 would it is there would it have to be a 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.800 law that would change this, Like what would be a 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.480 way out to so that? Okay? Because what you first 0:11:57.520 --> 0:11:59.480 of all, what you say makes sense that in countries 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.680 in which you have to pay truckers by the hour. 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.439 Then it becomes a real cost to the shippers if 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.480 they're just holding you there for hours. So what would 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:10.720 it take to get into a mode where that's how 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:15.079 truckers are paid. You make a good point, Joe, um 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:21.640 the the system here, because there's no cost associated with 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.880 the driver's time, it creates what they call a market failure. 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:27.040 Like I lean a little bit libertarian. I used to 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.679 be a pretty strident libertarian in the past, but like 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:36.680 we're we're seeing this confluence of different factors where because 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.959 it's not legally acquired and because there's so many humongous 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:45.840 so called mega carriers in the market who have built 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:51.600 their business model around turning and churning through drivers and 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.200 not paying them what they're worth. And as you know, 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:58.520 the professor Steve as Shelley said in his book The 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:02.120 Big Greg Walking in the Client of the American Dream, 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:08.280 that it doesn't cost them any extra money to manage 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:15.319 driver attention and driver turn So these companies have essentially 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.640 built it into their operating model that you just don't 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:21.040 pay over time and you don't worry about it. So 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.600 it just might be you know, as much as the 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:28.880 libertarian part of my brain doesn't want this that the 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:34.040 government has to basically say, look, you're this industry and 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:38.680 the supply chain system that keeps America going is dependent 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:43.719 on having professionals and safe people that are happy with 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.360 their jobs don't want to stick around, and this model 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.880 of not paying them isn't sustainable. So maybe, and I 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.320 could be wrong, but maybe it is the you know, 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:58.319 like the Guaranteeing Overtime for Trucker's Act, where there's that 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.920 requirement that drivers be paid for their time in order 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.040 to force all of these clowns to actually pay people 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:10.280 what they're worth and to stop the ongoing churn retention cycle. 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.000 Can I just ask a Devil's Advocate question because I 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:32.680 think this comes up a lot. But so in the States, 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.240 truckers are paid by the mile or per trip for 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.040 the most part. And one of the things that comes 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.040 up when you start talking about well we should pay 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.600 them over time is well, how are you actually going 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:49.400 to track and monitor? And then you know, I'm so 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.960 glad you brought up just to be clear, Devil's Advocate, 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:58.040 but please give us your response. That is a fantastic question. 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:03.160 And um, y'all went to grade school and high school 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:08.680 before they had uh smartphones, and some of those places 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.359 they taught you how to use this thing called a calculator. 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:16.600 And then the calculator got turned into an app on 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:20.560 your cell phone and on your laptop. And there's this 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:24.560 little thing we can do called pro ration. And guess 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.720 what the government does pro ration on the miles you 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.240 travel to figure out who to allocate fuel taxes to 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:35.720 the states. Why can we not pro rate miles to 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:39.160 figure out what your average hourly mileo D rate is, 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.080 to then figure out what your base hourly rate would 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.880 be based on those miles, to then calculate what your 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.440 overtime would be. This is so simple, but like I 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.080 think that, like truckers have spent so many decades of 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:58.920 just being abused and pummeled by all these forces beyond 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.480 our control, and then you have people like the American 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.760 Trucking Association who represent these mega carriers that just go 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.720 right along with it, that we can't imagine something as 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:14.480 simple as a calculator being able to figure this out 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:19.000 for everybody, especially given that many trucking companies these days, 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.440 much like Twitter who elon Musk, just cut out all 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.760 of these sort of like parasitical non work people that 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.520 don't produce anything. Trucking companies have the same problem with 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.800 like compliance and human resources managers and all these people 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.360 that like have to basically make sure that the trucking 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.560 companies don't get crushed by the d O T. So, 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.840 like can they not operate calculators? Can they not figure 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:48.200 out how to pay people? Like? This is real simple. 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:51.240 As an avid Twitter user who wants the site to 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.280 remain stable, I'm a little worried that he may have 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.560 let go of people who are crucial but and not 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:01.040 entirely all parasites. Um. But nonetheless, I take your I 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:02.680 take your point. I just I want I want the 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.680 site to remain functioning and high quality engineers to work there. 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:07.919 But that's a sidetrack I want to get. You know, 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.119 you just mentioned um, the A T A and you know, 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:14.280 for years you hear about the so called truck driver shortage. 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.480 But as you just pointed out, or as you argue 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.800 that for also years that the mega carriers have had 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:22.440 this like churn mentality, they're like, well, it's okay if 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:24.920 a driver only stays in the industry for a few 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.919 months or a year, etcetera. Can you talk a little 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:32.080 bit more about that model the churn that, like, let's 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.840 just turn through the driver's model and it's okay if 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.520 it's cheap and it's okay, and how sustainable that is 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.320 and what the cost of that is? Well, okay, So 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.640 the short answer is is, A, it's not sustainable and 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:48.040 B it's not sustainable because of the costs that have 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:54.119 been externalized. Right, So the costs are on both the 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:59.720 drivers themselves who again enter these models working for freight 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:04.960 companies where they go through some kind of truck driving 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:10.359 school and often enough owned by the carriers themselves, and 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.159 then they get either the carrier gets subsidized by the 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.360 government in some way through subsidies of grants to hire drivers, 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:20.679 or they offload the cost of the training onto the 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:25.440 drivers through these like credit obligations with ridiculous interest rates, 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.240 and then they have to sign a contract and stay 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.040 with the company. But then the company abuses them, and 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.800 then they discover that they waste half of their life 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:37.080 waiting at docks or being at the mercy of dispatch 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:41.520 systems that are often wonky, and nobody seems to care 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:46.560 because you're at the other end of a surveillance technology 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.440 like a qual calm or something in the truck, and 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.040 and and the companies don't necessarily care about where you 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.919 are what your time is. So there's a lot of washout. 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.360 And then there's also a lot of accidents. Um. There 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:03.440 was a a report released here recently that showed UM, 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:07.880 since the in position of the electronic Logging device mandate 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.280 that like truck accidents continue to climb. So there's this 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.119 cost sent to society. I like to I like to 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:17.760 call the drivers shortage narrative. I've come to this recently. 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.680 I want to call it the Pardo's truck driver shortage. 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:25.440 So there's there are companies who are short drivers, right 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:27.359 like the guys some people I used to work for 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.520 in Canada have about twenty trucks sitting. But they're a 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:35.200 specialized niche carrier and they need competent, good drivers that 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:38.679 know what they're doing. And so what happens is because 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:43.240 the other eight percent of the business is stuck going 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:47.840 through this retention problem and churning through drivers because they 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.720 can get away with it because the government subsidizes it, 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.040 and or they offload the cost of training onto the 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:56.760 drivers and get them stuck in this credit problem, and 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.200 it sucks in all kinds of people into the business 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:05.840 who shouldn't be driving. That basically turns off the number 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.600 of people who would come into it, who are competent 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.320 and who would graduate through the system, the pipeline, so 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:14.880 to speak, from being a new driver to a good 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.840 competent driver to moving on to a really good paying 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.920 job that's you know, in a niche market saying doing 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:25.159 oversize or hazardous materials or or some such other commodity 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.720 that pays a little better, and then sticking with it. 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:33.760 So the percent of the parado distribution that's locked in 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:39.080 by this really bad model of turning through drivers that 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.720 drivers shortage is fake. They just keep going through them. 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:46.120 There's no shortage. There's tons of people with CDLs. They 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.840 just end up quitting. And then at the other end, 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.520 the of people who are really competent, the companies and 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:56.119 that part of the market, they can't get people because 0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:01.760 the people who would come through the system and graduate 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.840 towards those good jobs quit before they get a chance, 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.240 because they're just like this is the ship show, Like 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.320 why would we stay here? Why would we stay in 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.520 this business that doesn't value our time? And they end 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.040 up quite It seems like there's a really interesting sort 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.400 of like kind of perverse economic phenomenon where people here 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:21.280 about how there's a driver's shortage, and they say, Okay, well, 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:24.760 why don't we subsidize going to drivers school, Why don't 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.000 we make it easier to get your CDL bring new 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:31.080 people in? But the real upshot of that, essentially it 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:34.760 sounds like it's just sustained the churn model rather than 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.320 that's right because what what what they're what they're doing 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:41.280 is they're they're they're using these systems to take care 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.959 of the bottom end of the problem rather than the 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:46.159 top end of the problem. Right, So like instead of 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:49.760 trying to keep people, like why pay people more, why 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:54.320 treat them better? Why improve the material conditions if you 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.560 can just keep on going through. And I hate to 0:21:57.600 --> 0:21:59.919 sound like, you know, a snob or anything, but like 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:04.120 these systems suck up people who are desperate. And one 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:08.320 of the problems in our economy over thirty forty years 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.800 of you know, Reaganomics, neoliberalism, whatever you want to call it, 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:15.960 um shipping at all of our manufacturing base to China 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:18.680 and Mexico and whatnot. Well, you can't ship out the 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:23.000 truck drivers. So the trucking industry, as represented by the 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:27.760 American Trucking Association, may they burn in hell? Uh, they've 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:31.440 basically created the system where it's like, we can't get 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:33.880 rid of the drivers, so somehow we have to make 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:37.360 them as cheap as the third world places we've sent 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.240 all of the other jobs too. And so they've created 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:44.720 this system, and now, you know, any suggestion at changing 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:48.119 that system is met with like a wall of inertia, 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:51.160 right like, oh, no, you can't do this because then 0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:55.199 it's gonna cost the economy more money. Or you know, 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:58.480 it's gonna affect the supply chains because now you're constricting 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:01.040 the available drivers. If you say, make it more difficult 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:06.080 to get a cd L or can I pay? Just 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:08.600 just on this point, um, And this is another sort 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.520 of devil's advocate question, But I feel comfortable asking you 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:16.320 this because you mentioned your libertarian roots. Is there is 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:22.840 there like attention between the deregulated trucking industry low barriers 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:26.280 to entry, you know, sort of maybe attracts a certain 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:29.399 type of person to be a driver, someone who wants 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:32.239 to work for themselves, who wants to have freedom, not 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:35.639 have to jump through a red tape and then actually 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:42.320 reforming the industry, maybe putting in more restrictions, more training, 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:46.920 more regulations. Is that like a sure that that is attention? 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:49.320 And that's a very good question, and I'm glad you 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:53.320 asked it, because what happens with that tension is so 0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:56.359 there's been a lot of discourse around about the downstream 0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:59.720 effects of the nineteen eight Motor Carrier Acts finned into 0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:03.040 law by Jimmy Carter and the effects that's had on 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:08.120 the trucking business and the you know, the downward pressure 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:12.080 on rates and wages. And that's a thing that's true. 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:16.800