1 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy, you know, 3 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: we've done a lot of truck driving episodes on the show, 4 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: by note, but it is kind of crazy that we 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: haven't actually spoken to a truck driver all trucking all 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: the time, except with the drivers themselves apparently. Yeah, it's 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: kind of bad. We we really, you know, because essentially 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: people talk about poor conditions, they talk about poor pay, 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: they talk about certain ways. You know, there's a lot 10 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: of talking the industry about a so called truck driver shortage, 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: which is this talking point media has reported for a 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: long time. But how can you discuss these things, you know, 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: without actually hearing from a truck driver. Why perhaps the 14 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: industry has had trouble hiring and retaining drivers, right, but 15 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: also just talking about some of the supply chain issues 16 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: as we happen for the past two years or so, 17 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: and all the talk about you know, things being stuck 18 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: at the ports or things being stuck at rail yards 19 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: and truck drivers getting caught up in those and having 20 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 1: to wait hours and hours and hours to pick up 21 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: or drop off a load. But we haven't actually spoken 22 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: to the people who are living that very experience, right. 23 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: So one dynamic, and we talked about it on a 24 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: recent episode with Rachel Premac, is this fact that truck 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: drivers are paid by the mile, right, and you even 26 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: see it on the back of trucks. Often when they're 27 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: trying to recruit drivers, they talk about how much you 28 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: can get paid per mile, which has the drawback potentially 29 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: of you don't get paid for time. And therefore, if 30 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: you're at a warehouse and you're depositing a load or 31 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: picking up some goods, you can wait around for a 32 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: really long time, potentially hours if the warehouse is inefficient 33 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: or blocked or just sort of very crowded, which a 34 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: lot of infrastructure has been over the last couple of years, 35 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: and you're not getting paid for that time. It's detention, 36 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: is they call it in the industry, And if it's 37 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: really bad, if it's an efficient, that's just hours of 38 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: your life wasted because it's not a mile, right. And 39 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: so the supply chain crisis has kind of shown a 40 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: light on this practice, and the question now is whether 41 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: or not it starts to change, because clearly, if you're 42 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: talking about how difficult it is to get stuff from 43 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: point A to point B. And a big part of 44 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: the choke point is while people are just waiting all 45 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: day to pick that stuff up at a particular port 46 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: or rail yard or depot or whatever. Then you could 47 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: see people maybe want to start to alleviate some of 48 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: that weight time and right. And that's what happens, I 49 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: think in a so called supply chain crisis, is you 50 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: noticed various choke points or an efficient that you maybe 51 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,119 Speaker 1: you tolerated private or previously, or that weren't a big deal, 52 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: and so, okay, we have this problem where people are 53 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: wasting their time at the warehouse is waiting for load 54 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: or unload, but whatever, it's okay because things are still 55 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: moving smoothly. When you get the real seas up and 56 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, these are like dramatic inefficiencies and the 57 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: cost of adjustment falls on the truck drivers themselves because 58 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: they're the ones that have to essentially eat the cost 59 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: by wasting time. Yeah, exactly. So when you get these 60 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: choke points, as you mentioned, it seems like a good 61 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: time to sort of evaluate the process on a whole 62 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: and what can be done to alleviate them. And you know, 63 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: some people are like, oh, it's apps and we need 64 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: like algorithms like uber and stuff like that and make 65 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: everything more efficient. But you know, at that point it's 66 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: just speculations. So let's talk to a driver and let's 67 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: find out what really is going on and how much 68 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: time and waste and if there are any potential solutions 69 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: to this issue of truck driver detention. Let's do right, 70 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: I'm really excited about our guests. We're gonna be speaking 71 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: to a truck driver and also the author of the 72 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: Autonomous Trucker's Substack, Gordon McGill. Gordon, thank you so much 73 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: for coming on, Odd Lots, Hello, Odd Lots, Hi Tracy, 74 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: Hi Joe, thank you for having me on. Thanks for 75 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: coming on. What do you sort of give your some 76 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: wary How does a truck driver get paid? And what 77 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: is detention? There's numerous three ways truck drivers get paid. 78 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: Some get paid by percentage of hall, some get paid 79 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: by the mile, some get paid salaries, some get paid 80 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: by the hour. It depends on what part of the 81 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: market you're in, what capacity you're working in, whether it's local, regional, 82 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: or over the road, or if you're like a drade 83 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: trucker working on ports, there's many different pay models, but 84 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: the pay is downstream of basically piece work and the 85 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: quoted rate that the company you work for gives to 86 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: their customer. So talk to us a little bit more 87 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:39,799 Speaker 1: about driver detention then, why exactly does detention happen at all? 88 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: And have you, you know, personally noticed a change in 89 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: the amount of time that you're spending waiting to either 90 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: pick something up or drop it off. So detention is 91 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: it can be caused by any number of things. I mean, 92 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, as they as the famous T shirt and 93 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: bumper sticker says, you know, ship happens, um so sometimes 94 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's it's it's just you know, mechanical breakdowns, 95 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: personnel shortages, whatever. But with distribe the distribution of freight 96 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: in America, the entire system is set up and predicated 97 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: on the fact that all of the time efficiencies and 98 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: problems get downloaded onto the drivers because there's no cost 99 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: associated with their time, and there never has been, So 100 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: you just end up sitting and waiting and it could 101 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: be for any reason under the sun. And it's been 102 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: like that basically since forever. Do you have a sense 103 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: of like how much time you like, what's a week 104 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: look like for you or a month look like for you? 105 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: And do you have any sense of how much time 106 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 1: you in particular? And then maybe the industry drivers as 107 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: a whole waste in unpaid attention. So there was a 108 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,119 Speaker 1: study done. I'm gonna I'm gonna quote the science seeing 109 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: as how this you know, very popular thought terminating cliche 110 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 1: circulates around the internet and the discourse. There was a 111 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: study done by there's like a subdivision of M I 112 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: T which studies logistics and trade, and they showed that 113 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: the average trucker in America, although they are allowed to 114 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: drive eleven hours a day, only drives on average about 115 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: six and a half hours because their day gets sucked 116 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: up with waiting to load and unload so much that 117 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: they literally lose almost you know, liketent of their available 118 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: driving time. There's been a lot of discourse, as you 119 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,679 Speaker 1: guys mentioned in your opening about problems supply chain. Well, 120 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: a pretty major problem is when fortent of your available 121 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: trucking capacity is being held up right, right, So you 122 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: mentioned the eleven hours there, and this was gonna be 123 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: my next question, like don't truckers and I apologize and 124 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: advance her a very basic question but don't truckers have 125 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: like a certain limit on the amount of driving time 126 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: that they can do per day. But you're saying that 127 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: the waiting time doesn't factor into it, or are there 128 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: any sure So yeah, so it's called hours of service 129 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: and all truckers in America and and most other western 130 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: countries are governed by DHS rules. In the United States, 131 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: you're allowed to drive eleven hours a day, and you 132 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: get like a fourteen hour window to complete those eleven hours, 133 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: and then the other three hours are safe pre trip inspections, loading, 134 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: unloading on the other duties you have to take care of. 135 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: But like you know, if those other duties exceed three 136 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: hours and then eat into the eleven of driving, you 137 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: lose them. And that happens all the time. And again 138 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: as as Joe, as you guys mentioned at the beginning, 139 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: the amount of time you sit cuts into the amount 140 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: of time that you can drive. And there for the truck, 141 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: which is considered you know, an asset and a part 142 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: of logistics capacity is now just sitting there wasting not 143 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: making any money, right, correct me if I'm wrong, But 144 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: in the price of a trip or in the cost 145 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: of a trip, there are sometimes attempts to compensate for 146 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: expected way times or if a if a shipper has 147 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: a reputation for having inefficient warehouses or for long wait 148 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: times picking up or dropping off. In theory, they do 149 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: pay more to the to the owner operator or to 150 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: afraid broker, who then theory pass it along like there 151 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: is some cost to them that sometimes factored into what 152 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: they pay per mile for the trip. Well that's in theory, 153 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: but again because of the hyper competitive nature of the 154 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: trucking business. You know, I was speaking with an owner 155 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: operator a friend of mine the other day and he, 156 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: you know, mentioned, you know, he's always worried about you know, 157 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: the other guy, the other guy, the other company that's 158 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: willing to like forego that cost. And it's always used 159 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: as a threat um, you know, like, yeah, if you 160 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: guys charge us too much for the marriage time, we 161 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: just won't use you and we'll use another trucking company. 162 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: So there's this, you know, playing off um companies against 163 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: each other to try and remove that. Some companies do 164 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: pay it, typically and specialized or niche markets, there's very 165 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: low tolerance for waiting time. I drove truck in New 166 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: Zealand for a little while and because the cost of 167 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: doing business down there is so much higher and the 168 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: margins are that much thinner, they don't tolerate waiting time. 169 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: And then in other countries it's mandated that drivers get 170 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 1: paid by the hour, and because you're paying by the hour, 171 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: you can't waste those people's time because it's coming out 172 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: of the bottom line of the company who's holding you up. 173 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: Whereas in the United States there's nothing to force anybody 174 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: to a out for drivers time like whatsoever. So there's 175 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: a very small minority of companies that will pay for that, 176 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: but they're so inconsequential that the rest of the business 177 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: they just they just don't pay. Well, maybe this is 178 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: a good time to talk about how we ended up 179 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: with that system in the US, because, as you mentioned, like, 180 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: it does seem strange. You know, for most people in 181 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: the States, they work forty hour weeks and then if 182 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: they work over time, they'll get some sort of extra compensation, um, 183 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: you know, to compensate them for that. But in the 184 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: case of truckers it seems to be different. So how 185 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: did we end up with this system? In nineteen thirty eight, 186 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: during Roosevelt administration, they passed a piece of legislation called 187 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: the Fair Labor Standards Act, which included the idea of 188 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: paying people over time and included the idea of the 189 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: standard forty hour week, and a few different occupations were 190 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: exempted from that included transportation and truck drivers were explicitly 191 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 1: exempted from being paid overtime. And it's been like that 192 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: ever since. So the entire industry has built it's like 193 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: rate structures, the way it does business, the way it 194 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: pays people, the way it schedules things around the fact that, hey, 195 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: we don't have to pay these guys any extra for 196 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: their overtime, and that's fine, and we're just gonna keep 197 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: doing that. So they've created like a two tier system 198 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 1: where you know, you might be at a Walmart warehouse 199 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: or whatever distribution center and everybody that works there gets 200 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: paid over time if they have to work for the hours, 201 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: except the dozens or hundreds of truckers sitting outside in 202 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: their cabs waiting to get loaded or unloaded. So what 203 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: would it is there would it have to be a 204 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: law that would change this, Like what would be a 205 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: way out to so that? Okay? Because what you first 206 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: of all, what you say makes sense that in countries 207 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: in which you have to pay truckers by the hour. 208 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: Then it becomes a real cost to the shippers if 209 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: they're just holding you there for hours. So what would 210 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: it take to get into a mode where that's how 211 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: truckers are paid. You make a good point, Joe, um 212 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: the the system here, because there's no cost associated with 213 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: the driver's time, it creates what they call a market failure. 214 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: Like I lean a little bit libertarian. I used to 215 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: be a pretty strident libertarian in the past, but like 216 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: we're we're seeing this confluence of different factors where because 217 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: it's not legally acquired and because there's so many humongous 218 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: so called mega carriers in the market who have built 219 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: their business model around turning and churning through drivers and 220 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: not paying them what they're worth. And as you know, 221 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: the professor Steve as Shelley said in his book The 222 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: Big Greg Walking in the Client of the American Dream, 223 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: that it doesn't cost them any extra money to manage 224 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: driver attention and driver turn So these companies have essentially 225 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: built it into their operating model that you just don't 226 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: pay over time and you don't worry about it. So 227 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: it just might be you know, as much as the 228 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: libertarian part of my brain doesn't want this that the 229 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: government has to basically say, look, you're this industry and 230 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: the supply chain system that keeps America going is dependent 231 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,719 Speaker 1: on having professionals and safe people that are happy with 232 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: their jobs don't want to stick around, and this model 233 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: of not paying them isn't sustainable. So maybe, and I 234 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: could be wrong, but maybe it is the you know, 235 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 1: like the Guaranteeing Overtime for Trucker's Act, where there's that 236 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: requirement that drivers be paid for their time in order 237 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: to force all of these clowns to actually pay people 238 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: what they're worth and to stop the ongoing churn retention cycle. 239 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: Can I just ask a Devil's Advocate question because I 240 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: think this comes up a lot. But so in the States, 241 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: truckers are paid by the mile or per trip for 242 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: the most part. And one of the things that comes 243 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: up when you start talking about well we should pay 244 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: them over time is well, how are you actually going 245 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: to track and monitor? And then you know, I'm so 246 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: glad you brought up just to be clear, Devil's Advocate, 247 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: but please give us your response. That is a fantastic question. 248 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: And um, y'all went to grade school and high school 249 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: before they had uh smartphones, and some of those places 250 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,359 Speaker 1: they taught you how to use this thing called a calculator. 251 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: And then the calculator got turned into an app on 252 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: your cell phone and on your laptop. And there's this 253 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: little thing we can do called pro ration. And guess 254 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: what the government does pro ration on the miles you 255 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: travel to figure out who to allocate fuel taxes to 256 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: the states. Why can we not pro rate miles to 257 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: figure out what your average hourly mileo D rate is, 258 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: to then figure out what your base hourly rate would 259 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: be based on those miles, to then calculate what your 260 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: overtime would be. This is so simple, but like I 261 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: think that, like truckers have spent so many decades of 262 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: just being abused and pummeled by all these forces beyond 263 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: our control, and then you have people like the American 264 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: Trucking Association who represent these mega carriers that just go 265 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: right along with it, that we can't imagine something as 266 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: simple as a calculator being able to figure this out 267 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: for everybody, especially given that many trucking companies these days, 268 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: much like Twitter who elon Musk, just cut out all 269 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: of these sort of like parasitical non work people that 270 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: don't produce anything. Trucking companies have the same problem with 271 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: like compliance and human resources managers and all these people 272 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: that like have to basically make sure that the trucking 273 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: companies don't get crushed by the d O T. So, 274 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: like can they not operate calculators? Can they not figure 275 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: out how to pay people? Like? This is real simple. 276 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: As an avid Twitter user who wants the site to 277 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: remain stable, I'm a little worried that he may have 278 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: let go of people who are crucial but and not 279 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: entirely all parasites. Um. But nonetheless, I take your I 280 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: take your point. I just I want I want the 281 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: site to remain functioning and high quality engineers to work there. 282 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: But that's a sidetrack I want to get. You know, 283 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: you just mentioned um, the A T A and you know, 284 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: for years you hear about the so called truck driver shortage. 285 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: But as you just pointed out, or as you argue 286 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: that for also years that the mega carriers have had 287 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: this like churn mentality, they're like, well, it's okay if 288 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: a driver only stays in the industry for a few 289 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: months or a year, etcetera. Can you talk a little 290 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: bit more about that model the churn that, like, let's 291 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: just turn through the driver's model and it's okay if 292 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: it's cheap and it's okay, and how sustainable that is 293 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: and what the cost of that is? Well, okay, So 294 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: the short answer is is, A, it's not sustainable and 295 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: B it's not sustainable because of the costs that have 296 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: been externalized. Right, So the costs are on both the 297 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: drivers themselves who again enter these models working for freight 298 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: companies where they go through some kind of truck driving 299 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: school and often enough owned by the carriers themselves, and 300 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: then they get either the carrier gets subsidized by the 301 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: government in some way through subsidies of grants to hire drivers, 302 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: or they offload the cost of the training onto the 303 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: drivers through these like credit obligations with ridiculous interest rates, 304 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: and then they have to sign a contract and stay 305 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: with the company. But then the company abuses them, and 306 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: then they discover that they waste half of their life 307 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: waiting at docks or being at the mercy of dispatch 308 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: systems that are often wonky, and nobody seems to care 309 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: because you're at the other end of a surveillance technology 310 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: like a qual calm or something in the truck, and 311 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: and and the companies don't necessarily care about where you 312 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: are what your time is. So there's a lot of washout. 313 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 1: And then there's also a lot of accidents. Um. There 314 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: was a a report released here recently that showed UM, 315 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: since the in position of the electronic Logging device mandate 316 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: that like truck accidents continue to climb. So there's this 317 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: cost sent to society. I like to I like to 318 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: call the drivers shortage narrative. I've come to this recently. 319 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: I want to call it the Pardo's truck driver shortage. 320 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: So there's there are companies who are short drivers, right 321 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: like the guys some people I used to work for 322 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: in Canada have about twenty trucks sitting. But they're a 323 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: specialized niche carrier and they need competent, good drivers that 324 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: know what they're doing. And so what happens is because 325 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: the other eight percent of the business is stuck going 326 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: through this retention problem and churning through drivers because they 327 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: can get away with it because the government subsidizes it, 328 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: and or they offload the cost of training onto the 329 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: drivers and get them stuck in this credit problem, and 330 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: it sucks in all kinds of people into the business 331 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: who shouldn't be driving. That basically turns off the number 332 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: of people who would come into it, who are competent 333 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: and who would graduate through the system, the pipeline, so 334 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: to speak, from being a new driver to a good 335 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: competent driver to moving on to a really good paying 336 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: job that's you know, in a niche market saying doing 337 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: oversize or hazardous materials or or some such other commodity 338 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: that pays a little better, and then sticking with it. 339 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: So the percent of the parado distribution that's locked in 340 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: by this really bad model of turning through drivers that 341 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: drivers shortage is fake. They just keep going through them. 342 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: There's no shortage. There's tons of people with CDLs. They 343 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: just end up quitting. And then at the other end, 344 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: the of people who are really competent, the companies and 345 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: that part of the market, they can't get people because 346 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: the people who would come through the system and graduate 347 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: towards those good jobs quit before they get a chance, 348 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: because they're just like this is the ship show, Like 349 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: why would we stay here? Why would we stay in 350 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: this business that doesn't value our time? And they end 351 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: up quite It seems like there's a really interesting sort 352 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: of like kind of perverse economic phenomenon where people here 353 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: about how there's a driver's shortage, and they say, Okay, well, 354 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: why don't we subsidize going to drivers school, Why don't 355 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: we make it easier to get your CDL bring new 356 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: people in? But the real upshot of that, essentially it 357 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: sounds like it's just sustained the churn model rather than 358 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: that's right because what what what they're what they're doing 359 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: is they're they're they're using these systems to take care 360 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,959 Speaker 1: of the bottom end of the problem rather than the 361 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: top end of the problem. Right, So like instead of 362 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: trying to keep people, like why pay people more, why 363 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: treat them better? Why improve the material conditions if you 364 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: can just keep on going through. And I hate to 365 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: sound like, you know, a snob or anything, but like 366 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: these systems suck up people who are desperate. And one 367 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: of the problems in our economy over thirty forty years 368 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: of you know, Reaganomics, neoliberalism, whatever you want to call it, 369 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: um shipping at all of our manufacturing base to China 370 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: and Mexico and whatnot. Well, you can't ship out the 371 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: truck drivers. So the trucking industry, as represented by the 372 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: American Trucking Association, may they burn in hell? Uh, they've 373 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: basically created the system where it's like, we can't get 374 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: rid of the drivers, so somehow we have to make 375 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 1: them as cheap as the third world places we've sent 376 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: all of the other jobs too. And so they've created 377 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: this system, and now, you know, any suggestion at changing 378 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: that system is met with like a wall of inertia, 379 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: right like, oh, no, you can't do this because then 380 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: it's gonna cost the economy more money. Or you know, 381 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: it's gonna affect the supply chains because now you're constricting 382 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: the available drivers. If you say, make it more difficult 383 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: to get a cd L or can I pay? Just 384 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: just on this point, um, And this is another sort 385 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: of devil's advocate question, But I feel comfortable asking you 386 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: this because you mentioned your libertarian roots. Is there is 387 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: there like attention between the deregulated trucking industry low barriers 388 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: to entry, you know, sort of maybe attracts a certain 389 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: type of person to be a driver, someone who wants 390 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,239 Speaker 1: to work for themselves, who wants to have freedom, not 391 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: have to jump through a red tape and then actually 392 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: reforming the industry, maybe putting in more restrictions, more training, 393 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: more regulations. Is that like a sure that that is attention? 394 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: And that's a very good question, and I'm glad you 395 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: asked it, because what happens with that tension is so 396 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of discourse around about the downstream 397 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: effects of the nineteen eight Motor Carrier Acts finned into 398 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: law by Jimmy Carter and the effects that's had on 399 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: the trucking business and the you know, the downward pressure 400 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: on rates and wages. And that's a thing that's true. 401 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: And it was a first identified academically by this guy 402 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: named Michael Belzer who wrote a book and that was 403 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: published in two thousands called Sweatshops on Wheels. And a 404 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: thing that Belser identifies in the book, which I have 405 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: also seen and a lot of other truckers have also seen, 406 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: is that instead of regulating the business side of it, 407 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: like freight lanes, how much your rates are gonna be 408 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: all that side of the business, they now overregulate the 409 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: operational side, so they regulate the driver's right. So and 410 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: and there's gonna be another book being published next month 411 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: by an academic at Coronell named Karen Levy, which is 412 00:24:55,119 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: called data driven Trucker's in the New workplace, a veilance, 413 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: and she has spent ten years studying like the effects 414 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: of all of the regulatory imposition on the driver through 415 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: surveillance technology, driver facing cameras, e l d s, all 416 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,239 Speaker 1: of this stuff that's meant to regulate us because of 417 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: the public sphere of you know, drivers driving tired, over 418 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: their hours, all this stuff, which is an effect of 419 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: the fact that the market has been pummeled by deregulations. 420 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: So there's this regulation question, but it's not looked at 421 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: correctly that that they've deregulated the market. But they just 422 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: moved the regulation from the operations of the companies and 423 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: the rating and the business side of it, and they've 424 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: moved all the regulation onto the operations and onto the driver. 425 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: Which is another reason people wash out because if you're 426 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: somebody like me who has been in the business my 427 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: entire life, my dad was a trucker, both my uncles 428 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 1: were truckers, my grandt was a trucker. I was fixing, 429 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: helping mechanics, fixed trucks and driving around when I was 430 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: a teenager after school and I'm one of the sort 431 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: of last of the big game hunters. I know what 432 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: I'm doing. If somebody is a professional and knows what 433 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 1: they're doing, they don't want to be told how to 434 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: do their job by some human resources heridan or health 435 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: and safety pencil neck person that's breathing down their neck. 436 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: And that's a factor. Like another thing, and this applies 437 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: more to than just trucking, is like the psychology of 438 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: people who work for a living. Most people that work 439 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: for a living just want to do their jobs and 440 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: be left alone. And we have this like management mentality, 441 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: were like every single thing has to be done exactly 442 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: as the computer models tell us and as safe as possible, 443 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: and like they're trying to impose theory on material real reality, 444 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: and it drives the people actually doing the work insane. 445 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: So you know, you want to like end driver churn 446 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: and driver attention. One of the factors causing that is 447 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: that they've overregulated the people doing the work rather than 448 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: the people in charge of the markets and which the 449 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: work is being done. Like does that make any sense? Yeah, 450 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: that's and that's an incredible point. And I hadn't really 451 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: thought about this before. This idea that's like, okay, the 452 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: business of trucking, the business of pay etcetera increasingly deregulated, 453 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: even as more burden gets shifted to the driver in 454 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 1: the truck. And the idea of monitoring and so essentially 455 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: sort of redistributing the imposition of where the regulation happens. 456 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: And I hadn't really thought about it before, but it 457 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: sort of leads me to where I was going to 458 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 1: go with my next question. And you know, one of 459 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,479 Speaker 1: the things that Tracy and I have talked about, and 460 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 1: we interviewed the CEO of a freight brokerage kind of 461 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: is this attempt to make it even more computerized, like 462 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: the like the uberization of trucking, that all deal are, 463 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: all gigs are an app and you put in your 464 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: requirement and then a job shows up. What have you 465 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: seen in terms of how that affects you? This attempt 466 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: to essentially apply apply this sort of algorithm uper model 467 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: to your industry. Well, that model can work in certain sectors, 468 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: but not all of them. So trucks move everything right, 469 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: and not all commodities, not all products get moved in 470 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: the same type of truck right right now, eye haul logs, 471 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: you cannot do anything with logging trailer I pulled except 472 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: haul logs. That's it. That's all it's good for. Right. 473 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: A really good friend of mine, owner operator is name's Chris. 474 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: He has a he works for a company that does 475 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: bulk pneumatic stuff. So like it's like bulk commodities that 476 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: are like either powder eyes or small pellets and they 477 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: get blown in and out of his tanker trailer with 478 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: a vacuum or or a pressure system. You can't just 479 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: put that on uber. The uberization of trucking is only 480 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: for like freight, where like you have a box trailer 481 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: with doors on the back and everything comes in and 482 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: out on the forklift. And so the trucking industry because 483 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,719 Speaker 1: it's so diverse and there's so many different angles on it, 484 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: like the uberization thing only applies to certain parts of it. 485 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Yeah? Absolutely? Can I ask one more, 486 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: one more like specific example, which is I was reading 487 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: your blog, which is great, by the way, but you 488 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: mentioned that in your three decades of trucking experience that 489 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: you had one experience with someone who actually paid you 490 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: over time for trucking. Can you talk a little bit 491 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: about that, like why why would some people pay overtime 492 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: versus the vast majority who are not paying extra. How 493 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: does that work? Yeah, that one employer was b here 494 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: in the United States, and I'm not sure if that 495 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: was a function of state law or just the fact 496 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: it was like hazardous materials and they wanted to be 497 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:16,239 Speaker 1: able to keep people around. And it was seasonal right. 498 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: The commodity I held with propane, and a lot of 499 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: people in the North used propane to heat their homes. 500 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: Soince it gets really busy in the winter, busy to 501 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: the point where you're working seventy eight hours a week, 502 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: and if it didn't over time, they probably wouldn't get 503 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: anybody to work for them, whereas other companies I've worked for, 504 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: it was either straight mileage or percentage. And you know, 505 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: I learned very early on in my truck and career 506 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: that you know the freight market, the you know, pulling 507 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: a box trailer, it's because of all the factors we've 508 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: just discussed. It's not it's not the place you're gonna 509 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: make tons of money. And I've always done oversized loads, 510 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: heavy stuff, bualt, commodities, hazardous materials of all a lot 511 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: of fuel blogs. I've tried to stay away from the 512 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: freight market. But the I mean, it's easy enough for 513 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: somebody who's been in the business long enough like me 514 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: and who is competent to say that, but we still 515 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: have to have something for the vast majority of drivers 516 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: who are stuck in this freight market that just won't 517 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: seem to heal itself and correct the factors which make 518 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: it underpaid. Turned through drivers cause accidents, offload all of 519 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: these costs onto society insurance claims for accidents. There's this 520 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: whole discourse around like what do they call it nuclear claims? 521 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: Were like or nuclear verdicts, where you know, there's an 522 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: accident and some people are killed and then like the 523 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: judge just goes to crazy on the on the trucking 524 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: company in question. And then there's another issue in the 525 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: trucking business with self ensuring. A lot of these large 526 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: mega carriers, they're so big and they and they have 527 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: have so much throughputting, they make so much money that 528 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: they self ensure. And when you self ensure, you're not 529 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: playing by the same rules as other insurance companies who 530 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: might want to vet drivers better or impose experience limits. Right, 531 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: So there's there's just all these different factors affecting the 532 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: business that make it very difficult to say, you know, 533 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: here's one solution that's gonna work for everybody. Right, I 534 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: want to get to just sort of the current state 535 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: of the sort of marketing, the economy and diesel prices. 536 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: But one last sort of very just a detail question. 537 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: What do you do while you're waiting there for hours? 538 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: What do you truck drivers do while you're waiting? Do 539 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: you like do you like haunk your horn and complain 540 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: and say I don't know. You know, the few times 541 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: back in the day when I hauled freight, I just 542 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: carried lots of books with me and I read. Some 543 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: guys polished their wheels. Some guys catch up on sleep. 544 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: Some guys, I mean, you know, now they're smartphones, so 545 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,239 Speaker 1: they just scroll reads, catch up on sleep whatever. And 546 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: I mean it should be noted that during the COVID regime, 547 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: where everybody was like scared of this marginally if effective virus, 548 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: that many distribution centers and facilities across America and Canada 549 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't let drivers into use their facilities. A lot of 550 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: them don't. As a matter of course, anyway, there's this 551 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: whole problem with like distribution centers not letting you use 552 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: their lunch rooms or bathrooms or anything. They just expect 553 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: you to stay in your truck the whole time. So 554 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: you're basically being treated like a pariah as a matter 555 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: of course, like it's sort of an industry standard thing. 556 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: And then COVID like crank that up to eleven and 557 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: made it even worse. So you basically spend a lot 558 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: of time sitting with yourself. Why don't we broaden it 559 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: out a little bit and talk about the general environment 560 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: for trucking at the moment, because you know, this has 561 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: garnered quite a lot of attention. People like to look 562 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: at freight rates as indicative of where we're heading in 563 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: the economic cycle. So what are you seeing in terms 564 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: of I guess load activity and also the rates that 565 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: you're actually being paid. I'll give you a good reference 566 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: my friend Jamie Hagen, who's very active on Twitter, real 567 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: good Twitter follow at hell bent hagen Um. He's an 568 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: owner operator, has a bunch of his own trucks. He 569 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: made a tweet on the weekend about watching um the 570 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: spot load market. Loadboards drop almost instantaneously like you would 571 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: try and book a load, and like a load might 572 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: pay a dollar fifty a mile and then it would 573 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: all of a sudden drop down to a dollar a mile. 574 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: And we had a conversation about this, and he mentioned that, 575 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: you know, typically trucking gets really slow in January and February. 576 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: There's always this like post holiday lull, and that's that 577 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: happens regardless of whatever the other economic circumstances are. It's 578 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: sort of like a truism and trucking that you know, 579 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: January and early part of February or slow. We're seeing 580 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: now that that drop off and slowness is happening now 581 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: when it should be peak season. Um loads, loads being 582 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 1: moved in advance of Christmas holiday shopping, you know, um, 583 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: you know, people ordering things from Amazon. So you know, 584 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: there was there was an article on freight waves recently 585 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: about like FedEx is like furlowing drivers. But it's it's 586 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: only mid November, right, So the market such as it is, 587 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 1: seems really unhealthy right now. Plus you know we're I 588 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: I live in upstate New York. Uh, six dollars and 589 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: five cents a gallon seems to be fairly average around 590 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,760 Speaker 1: here for fuel. That's unsustainable without significant fuel search charges 591 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: out of the freight bills. I can't I can't speak 592 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: for the rest of the country, but like you know, 593 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: the we're not looking at a very good time. So 594 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: I just have I guess one last question here, but 595 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,760 Speaker 1: whether it's you know, this sort of broader the sustainability 596 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: of existing trends, the current macro climate and sort of 597 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: all of it put together, do you see any prospect 598 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: for change positive in the industry and or internally or 599 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: self motivated or is it all sort of going to 600 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: like setting aside, whether things even improve, or whether there's 601 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: a new pay model which was probably not gonna happen 602 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: for a while. What do you see as lasting changes 603 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,479 Speaker 1: from the sort of the ructions that we've seen during 604 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,439 Speaker 1: all the supply chain stress in COVID. Well that's hard 605 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: to protect. But I mean the nice thing has been 606 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: the sort of level of awareness And I wanna, you know, 607 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: credit you guys with this a little bit. You know, 608 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: since the whole COVID thing for the last couple of years, 609 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people being that they're sort of stuck 610 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: at home in the in the in the brighter amongst 611 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: them are wondering how everything is still moving while the 612 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: keyboard warriors and email case stays at home. Is that 613 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 1: like there's this new there, there's there's some attention being 614 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: paid to the to the material economy. Um, whether or 615 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: not that attention manages to last, and whether or not, 616 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: you know, people like you know, Representative Andy Levin who's 617 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 1: been primaried out and won't be in Congress next year 618 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: and is guaranteeing overtime for Trucker's Act bill keeps moving forward. 619 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: Remains to be seen, but like you know, a lot 620 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 1: of these problems have been highlighted. I don't I don't 621 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: know whether or not whether or not I should be 622 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: optimistic about this, because you know, the truck dry verse, 623 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: they're deeply cynical people, right because this the exemption to 624 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: us being paid overtime has been around for so long. 625 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 1: The sort of like the just nature of the business 626 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: and and so many different factors affecting trucking and making logistics. 627 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: You just kind of sort of shrug your shoulders and 628 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: say it is what it is. And I know that's 629 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: not like a complete answer for you in your audience, 630 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: but like it's hard to tell, but I am sort 631 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: of heartened somewhat at the interest shown to this business 632 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: in the wake of the COVID stuff. You know, guys 633 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: like yourselves and the popularity of people online such as 634 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: like huntsmen and various logistics specialists. You know, that's good. 635 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,240 Speaker 1: Whether or not that translates into legitimate attempts to fix 636 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: the business, I don't know, but like one of the 637 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: reasons I wrote my latest substract about the American Trucking 638 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: Association is if UM norms in like you know, NPR 639 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: American podcast listeners keep coming to the American Trucking and before, 640 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: so thank you for that. Well we had, we had Gordon, before, 641 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: we had an at least. Okay, that's good. That's good. No, 642 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: but like um, it's good that you guys spoke with me, 643 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,280 Speaker 1: and I think like speak with more people on the ground, 644 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: you know, to borrow my friend Oliver Bateman's phrase, doing 645 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: the work, like doing the actual work of the material economy, 646 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 1: and and and like the last thirty forty years of 647 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,720 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, Reagonomics, neoliberalism, Clinton whatever, globalism, 648 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,919 Speaker 1: global much in ad whatever you wanna call it, has 649 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: shifted so much attention away and concern away from the 650 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: working class. If you keep focusing on those people, keep 651 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: having use conversation you know, as they say, the devil 652 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: is in the details and where the folks on the 653 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 1: ground actually doing things. Keep keep keep that up and 654 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: you might actually start fixing things. Gordon McGill such a 655 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: treat speaking to really appreciate you taking time out of 656 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: your day to talk and I hope to have you 657 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: back on at some point. That was a really fantastic 658 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,280 Speaker 1: and thank you so much. Oh no, thank you guys, 659 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,760 Speaker 1: Like I say, keep it up. I appreciate your fetishization 660 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: of freight, nursery and logistics and whatnot. It makes it 661 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: fell feel good. Thank you, sure, take care of Thank you. 662 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: I thought that was a fantastic conversation with Gordon and 663 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: just extremely in a short time, extremely illuminating about some 664 00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: of the pain points and trucking that I hadn't fully appreciated. Absolutely. 665 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,320 Speaker 1: I also I hadn't realized that we had not actually 666 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: spoken to a truck driver. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty 667 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: sure we've spoken to some informally at various conferences over 668 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: the years, but not officially on the podcast. But I 669 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: also thought, you know, the point he made about if 670 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: you're concerned about supply chain issues, choke points at ports 671 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: and depots, and things like that. The idea of having 672 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 1: an actual chunk of your trucking capital tied up waiting 673 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: and not being particularly efficient. I thought that was a 674 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: good point, and I really thought it was interesting. You know, 675 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought it's like, okay, there's a shortage of 676 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: you know, people keep talking about the truck driver shortage, 677 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: and on some level, fun we can accept that. But 678 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:44,919 Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought it's like, Okay, it makes sense, 679 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: like make it easier to get a CDL, make it 680 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: easier to go to truck driver school, make it easier 681 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,280 Speaker 1: for people to come into the business. But I hadn't 682 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: thought about this idea that what that does, ultimately is 683 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: it just sustained a churn model where yes, you solve 684 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: the problem of people coming in, but you don't solve 685 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: the problem of truck driver retention people actually staying in 686 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: the industry. Yeah. Absolutely, all right, Well, plenty more trucking 687 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: episodes to come. I'm sure. Shall we leave it there 688 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: for now? Let's leave it there, Okay. This has been 689 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. 690 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway, and 691 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wi isn't, though. You can follow me on 692 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,320 Speaker 1: Twitter at the Stalwart, check out the autonomous Trucker subject 693 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: of our guest Gordon McGill, follow our producer Kerman Rodriguez 694 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,760 Speaker 1: at Carmen Arman, and for all of our podcasts at Bloomberg, 695 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: check out the handle at podcasts. And I wanted to 696 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: let you know about a special event that we're holding 697 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 1: four listeners. My co host Tracy Alloway and I will 698 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 1: be speaking with past guest Josh Younger as well as 699 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 1: Columbia law professor levmanand in a special live episode of 700 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: The Odd Lots podcast on November twenty nine. We're gonna 701 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 1: be holding it at Bloomberg h Q, and you're welcome 702 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: to come Mingo Joint. We're gonna have cocktails, cannapay and 703 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: other stuff on that day along with the live recording. 704 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: So if you're interested in attending a live episode of 705 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: the Odd Lots podcast as well as meeting me and Tracy, 706 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: as well as meeting our guests, and as well as 707 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 1: meeting other Odd Lots listeners, go find the rs VP. 708 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: Both Tracy and I have tweeted about it. It's also 709 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg dot com slash odd lots. Sign up and 710 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: join us in New York City at Bloomberg h Q 711 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 1: on November twenty nine. Thanks for listening.