Speaker 1: This is Master's in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: My special guest today is Brian Kelly, better known as
Speaker 1: the Points Guy. Uh. The firm now gets ten million
Speaker 1: unique visitors to their website each month. It was launched
Speaker 1: in sold to bank Rate in bank Rate was bought
Speaker 1: by Red Ventures in the firm now has over sixty employees.
Speaker 1: Is that right? Well, the Points Guy itself is over
Speaker 1: a hundred employees. Over a hundred. Wow. Well, Brian Kelly,
Speaker 1: welcome to Blue Thanks. So I'm kind of intrigued about
Speaker 1: the Points Guy site. Um, when I got a Amex
Speaker 1: Platinum card in the office, I gave up my Amex
Speaker 1: Gold card at home and ultimately wanted to replace it
Speaker 1: with something which became the Chase Sapphire Reserve card. And
Speaker 1: then I went to your site and said, turned out
Speaker 1: that that was a really good decision. Tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about the points Guy site. Who's your audience
Speaker 1: and who you're targeting? Absolutely? Yeah, So the Points Guy
Speaker 1: I started this as a fun side thing in I
Speaker 1: used to work at Morgan Stanley. I was in HR,
Speaker 1: traveling a ton and I was just I've always been
Speaker 1: really really good at points like even going back to
Speaker 1: the nineties. But it started it's just a hobby site
Speaker 1: where I would, you know, blog about one post a
Speaker 1: day on how to use am X points or how
Speaker 1: to fly to Paris. And you know, no one really
Speaker 1: read it for about six months and months aware because
Speaker 1: then it just took off somehow, you know, it started
Speaker 1: to catch and I wrote about one deal, and you know,
Speaker 1: it really started off with consultants. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: the consultans who are on the road four days a week.
Speaker 1: They started reading my site and sharing it like crazy.
Speaker 1: Didn't eventually make its way to a big New York
Speaker 1: Times article fairly early on. So it was April of
Speaker 1: eleven that Seth Coogel, the Frugal Traveler columnist of the
Speaker 1: New York Times. He's a very cynical person, he said,
Speaker 1: freaking flyer miles or pointless for budget travelers unless you
Speaker 1: can prove me otherwise. And it was actually sitting in
Speaker 1: my spam inbox for like two months, like cleaning out
Speaker 1: one day and I'm like, what times this is crazy.
Speaker 1: I met up with them and I said, are you crazy?
Speaker 1: I'm like, budget travelers are the number one people who
Speaker 1: should be maximizing points. I met up with them at
Speaker 1: a bar in New York for three hours. He booked
Speaker 1: a trip to Brazil that day and coach, but he
Speaker 1: saved a thousand bucks. He was blown away, and a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks later he wrote this crazy article that
Speaker 1: was like the number one travel site everyone needs to know.
Speaker 1: And I just remember sitting at my cubicope Morgan Stanley
Speaker 1: being like, oh my god, my life is going to change,
Speaker 1: you know, the New York because my site crashed with traffic.
Speaker 1: Emails were coming in and I knew all along that,
Speaker 1: you know, everyone has points and no one knows how
Speaker 1: to use them. But that was when it really got
Speaker 1: put on the map. Um, when did you come to
Speaker 1: the conclusion that hey, this is a business? Was it
Speaker 1: the Times article? Before the Times article helped propel it?
Speaker 1: It was actually before. So if I started the blogging
Speaker 1: June of it was February. A friend from college he
Speaker 1: had kept emailing me saying, Brian, Brian, you're writing about
Speaker 1: credit cards all day. You're a moron because you're linking
Speaker 1: directly to American Express dot com. And he had worked
Speaker 1: for a company called links Share, which is now Racutan.
Speaker 1: In their affiliate marketing. And he said, if you get
Speaker 1: into my program, I can get you in. You know,
Speaker 1: you can get paid two hundred dollars per credit card approval.
Speaker 1: And I remember at that time, I had like fifty
Speaker 1: thousand monthly readers, and I was like two hundred bucks.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I only need like one percent of one
Speaker 1: percent to make this thesite exactly. So he got me
Speaker 1: in in February, and uh, and it was amazing. I
Speaker 1: was just writing the same exact content, but I was
Speaker 1: just using his links instead of directly to that. And
Speaker 1: so there's like an Amazon affiliate marketing and and unbeknownst
Speaker 1: to me, credit cards are like the uh you know,
Speaker 1: the ace in affiliate marketing because it was actually more
Speaker 1: than two. Some cards were paying five, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: per click like most. They had to open account. And
Speaker 1: my readers, my readers were bankers, lawyers, and consultants who
Speaker 1: live in New York, l A, and Chicago. Talk about
Speaker 1: Taylor me. So I was joking about I was blogging
Speaker 1: on a gold mine. And you know, so I started
Speaker 1: putting those links in, and you know, because these credit
Speaker 1: cards are the best way to get points. It was
Speaker 1: so organic. No one even said a word. I mean,
Speaker 1: I put my disclosures. Hey guys, I'm gonna fill it.
Speaker 1: And then the first I got nervous that people would
Speaker 1: think I'm doing it just for money, because that's never
Speaker 1: how it started out. But my readers, who are smart
Speaker 1: people in business, were like sending me high five emails
Speaker 1: like Buddy, I sent your links to my whole family,
Speaker 1: like I want you to I want you to be successful.
Speaker 1: And that was a really cool moment when I was like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I can provide good content for freedom.
Speaker 1: My readers. They use my link and they're just clicking
Speaker 1: on its click here, Chase same or better offer them
Speaker 1: what they're getting anyway. So so I love the story
Speaker 1: where so now you have the affiliate marketing links running
Speaker 1: for a couple of weeks or months, and then one
Speaker 1: week ends something happens, you linked to something and suddenly
Speaker 1: boom dollars over the weekend. It was crazy. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: I mean that so it was a perfect storm. That
Speaker 1: day the New York Times came out was actually the
Speaker 1: day that Chase had launched a British Airways hundred thousand
Speaker 1: point offer, and I knew that was gonna be really
Speaker 1: popular with my readers because most of the time, you know,
Speaker 1: back in the late two thousand, I mean late what
Speaker 1: do you call them the odds two um, you know,
Speaker 1: credit card bonuses were like twenty five thousand free flight,
Speaker 1: you know. And then you know, once the recession. Out
Speaker 1: of the recession, I think a lot of the credit
Speaker 1: card companies were like, you know, we really missed the
Speaker 1: boat on millennials and getting this new era of consumers,
Speaker 1: so they started raising the bonuses, and it you know,
Speaker 1: benefited my sight because I was just writing, you know,
Speaker 1: here's how you get to get the most out of
Speaker 1: British Airways miles. And the trick was not flying British
Speaker 1: Airways because they have crazy high fees on their award tickets.
Speaker 1: So I was just writing these little posts about, you know,
Speaker 1: if you want to go to Machu Picchu or Easter Island.
Speaker 1: Was amazing deals using British Airways miles back then because
Speaker 1: they were a one World partner. So these things that
Speaker 1: I had known for years, you know, the average consumer
Speaker 1: didn't realize that, wait a minute, I've got a boatload
Speaker 1: of miles and this is how I can go to
Speaker 1: Hawaii or Miami. So um, and then the new York
Speaker 1: Times article came out, which not just you know that
Speaker 1: day traffic. But I had no idea what s c
Speaker 1: O was. I knew Google like me because my site
Speaker 1: was growing month over month, But that day that you
Speaker 1: get that New York Times link, they still swing a
Speaker 1: lot of weight. Yeah, I mean, so that's why you know,
Speaker 1: we getting uh making sure using press to help you know,
Speaker 1: buoy the site. That's what There's been a lot of
Speaker 1: other bloggers in the space, none have really cracked it
Speaker 1: like I have. So it's a So let's talk about
Speaker 1: how this went from a sort of side interest to
Speaker 1: a website to a business. We were speaking earlier about
Speaker 1: your first big affiliation, branding thirty dollars over the weekend.
Speaker 1: You had to look at that and go, hey, this
Speaker 1: really is a bit. Is this what happened on Monday
Speaker 1: when you went into your day job. Well, I remember
Speaker 1: being in the shower just crunching the numbers as as
Speaker 1: my posts were going viral across the internet about this chase.
Speaker 1: You know, the clicks would update every hour, and I
Speaker 1: just you know, on a normal day, I'd have like
Speaker 1: twenty clicks on a you know, on a credit card link,
Speaker 1: but then all of a sudden, was like two thousand.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, if this is even the
Speaker 1: tiniest conversion rate, I'm doing well. And every other day,
Speaker 1: you know, sales would load into the system and so
Speaker 1: on paper. I remember when I hit the first hundred thousand,
Speaker 1: it was like roughly within a month of getting into
Speaker 1: affiliate sales because of that New York Times piece that
Speaker 1: made it go viral and uh and I remember just thinking,
Speaker 1: on paper, I'm kind of rich, you know, like that
Speaker 1: was more than my annual salary at that point. And
Speaker 1: my parents were like, Brian, you know, I was twenty seven,
Speaker 1: I was about to get VP, and you know, human
Speaker 1: resources at Morgan Stanley that you shouldn't be well back,
Speaker 1: you know, I was. You know, that was you know,
Speaker 1: when you're in your late twenties about to get VP,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, you're it's better to take a
Speaker 1: risk than when you're young, and you could bounce back.
Speaker 1: Of course, of course now you know, not knowing what
Speaker 1: I know now, but you know, being a blog a
Speaker 1: professional blogger just wasn't really a thing inn But my
Speaker 1: parents actually loaned me money because even though in the
Speaker 1: affiliate portal, I said I had all this money coming
Speaker 1: to me, but it was on like a net ninety
Speaker 1: pay plus plus plus. It was actually months before I
Speaker 1: saw any of that money. But so you didn't use
Speaker 1: venture capital. I never used family money, friends and family.
Speaker 1: How much did you? I borrowed five thousand or ten
Speaker 1: thousand from my parents just to pay my rent. But
Speaker 1: it was already profitable up to that point, so, I
Speaker 1: mean it was from getting affiliate links. Uh. It was
Speaker 1: six months. It was that August that I made my
Speaker 1: first million. It was crazy. It just kept growing and
Speaker 1: growing and then I started hiring. So I never I
Speaker 1: owned a hundred percent of the company when I sold
Speaker 1: it to Great inelve So that worked out. Well. Is
Speaker 1: that a public figure? Can we just it's not a
Speaker 1: public figure? Um, I don't think it was ever really disclosed,
Speaker 1: but it was, you know, life changing amount of money
Speaker 1: for me at the time. Of course, they gave me
Speaker 1: a three and a half year earn out because that
Speaker 1: was twenty eight They're like, we're not going to give
Speaker 1: you everything, but um, but you stayed with him for
Speaker 1: almost a decade. Yeah, I mean I even after that
Speaker 1: three and a half years. I Uh, I renegotiated my
Speaker 1: deal to get a you know, I was a salaried employee.
Speaker 1: I didn't I don't own the points guy, but they
Speaker 1: saw how passionate I was about it um and so
Speaker 1: you are the points guy, and so I guess it helps.
Speaker 1: You know, people even when Red Ventures bought Bank great
Speaker 1: people like you know most founders, you know, when you sell,
Speaker 1: you get you know, but they take the money and run,
Speaker 1: take the money and run. But I and I just
Speaker 1: you know, signed out with Red Ventures. I'm gonna be
Speaker 1: there for years to come. I mean, I passionately love
Speaker 1: doing what we do and uh yeah, it's the coolest
Speaker 1: job in the world. Why would I give it up? So,
Speaker 1: so you started as a as a blogger, when did
Speaker 1: you hire your first employee? So my first employee was
Speaker 1: actually part time. It was my sister in law. She
Speaker 1: was a stay at home mom. She started doing email
Speaker 1: got because the emails were coming in, and I actually
Speaker 1: had a side business where I would charge people fifty
Speaker 1: bucks and I would book their award tickets for them.
Speaker 1: So you'd be able to email me and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I want to take my family to Italy four people
Speaker 1: in June, and I would say, pay me ch under
Speaker 1: bucks and I'll tell you exactly how to do it.
Speaker 1: So I had that business and then I would blog.
Speaker 1: So my my sister in law was my first part
Speaker 1: time employee. And then it was actually right after I
Speaker 1: sold the bank. Right then I was like, I gotta
Speaker 1: I gotta hire people. And now people would want to
Speaker 1: work for me, because before people were like, I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna work for some guy blogging out of his living room. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: once I sold, you know, bank rate was a publicly
Speaker 1: traded company pretty um, you know, they had banquet dot
Speaker 1: com was a huge site, and the credit cards dot Com. So,
Speaker 1: you know, once I and that was great because I
Speaker 1: could just focus on the content and um, you know,
Speaker 1: their HR and legal and all that stuff took took
Speaker 1: away all that stuff that I really never enjoyed doing.
Speaker 1: And if you think about it, it makes perfect sense
Speaker 1: for a site that spends so much time and effort
Speaker 1: analyzing credit cards to bring in totally the ultimate credit card.
Speaker 1: And I didn't realize it at the time. I mean
Speaker 1: when they because I only had like roughly fifteen months
Speaker 1: of revenue. Granted it was all profit for the most
Speaker 1: part because I didn't really have that many expenses, but
Speaker 1: you know, to me, It was astounding that credit cards
Speaker 1: dot Com, the behemouth site, you know, um would want
Speaker 1: this little niche travel premium, you know, credit card site.
Speaker 1: But premium is a good niche. It is and and
Speaker 1: it it was. It was. It's been a wild ride since.
Speaker 1: You know, I remember when when I sold the bank
Speaker 1: rate in May, fifty thousand monthly uniques um, which is
Speaker 1: really nothing, but it was pretty pretty profitable. Um, but
Speaker 1: the real you know, but it's a platform that you
Speaker 1: could build on. It was a good and the platform
Speaker 1: kept growing year every year. But sixteen was the year
Speaker 1: we actually launched the Sapphire Reserve card with Chase. So
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about that. They reached out
Speaker 1: to you guys to say, hey, we have an idea
Speaker 1: for a new credit card to challenge AMEX. Well they
Speaker 1: didn't even in the beginning, we didn't even know what
Speaker 1: it was. Um. We had to you know, come up.
Speaker 1: You know, we had been working with Chase since the beginning,
Speaker 1: so they knew we were good partners. We had the
Speaker 1: ability to create content that resonated, especially with millennials. I mean,
Speaker 1: and to this day, you know, we have a huge audience.
Speaker 1: We now are in the UK, we we serviced all
Speaker 1: types of you know readers. We've got a whole military section,
Speaker 1: We've got our family vertical. Today we're actually launching our
Speaker 1: TPG Women vertical for women and travel small business. But
Speaker 1: but really the points guy, we can speak to millennials.
Speaker 1: We put credit cards and financial products in a way
Speaker 1: that I think successful people in general, especially millennials, can understand,
Speaker 1: like I need to get this car because I will
Speaker 1: live a better life through travel and you know, be
Speaker 1: able to to get ahead. So so yeah, they approached
Speaker 1: us in sen We were under strict NDA for months
Speaker 1: and months. So it was months until I even knew
Speaker 1: what the Sapphire Reserve was. And when I heard the product,
Speaker 1: I literally got like faint in the knees. I was like,
Speaker 1: this is gonna be huge, like monstrous, and it was.
Speaker 1: It was out of control. They literally sold out and
Speaker 1: they ran out of the medal used to make the car.
Speaker 1: So we were their launch partner, and you know, word
Speaker 1: was getting out and leaking and we uh uh they
Speaker 1: and you know we basically hell, they wanted to launch
Speaker 1: it right after Labor Day in sixteen. The words started
Speaker 1: to get out because you know, they've got all these
Speaker 1: bank branches, so they because we were partners with them,
Speaker 1: they actually announced that the Sapphire Reserve is coming. I
Speaker 1: still remember where I was in Italy on summer vacation
Speaker 1: and they actually said it's coming and the Points Guy
Speaker 1: has all the information. And on a tweet they announced
Speaker 1: the best credit card to ever hit the market in
Speaker 1: a tweet with the link to the points guy dot
Speaker 1: com and our inside scoop on so which made all
Speaker 1: of our competitors had the link to us. I mean,
Speaker 1: traffic was who needs s e O with that stuff?
Speaker 1: So that raises a really interesting question. In my wallet,
Speaker 1: I have a Chase Sapphire Reserve card and an Amex
Speaker 1: Platinum card. You do business with all these other credit
Speaker 1: card companies, did anyone say, hey, you guys are partnering
Speaker 1: with Chase. We're a little concerned about that. You know,
Speaker 1: my mom was so worried about that. She goes, You're
Speaker 1: going to be known as the Chase guy. And you know,
Speaker 1: you know, first what, second you think, okay, so are
Speaker 1: we doing too much with one partner? But I think
Speaker 1: you know, Chase came to us and said, we believe
Speaker 1: in you two. Do we We did a ton more
Speaker 1: than just blog posts, we did events. We did uh
Speaker 1: Facebook live on the day of the launch with pamcottas body,
Speaker 1: who was their head of credit cards at the time,
Speaker 1: and we were answering reader questions live on social media,
Speaker 1: which your credit card company had never done before. And
Speaker 1: I think that launch with them well, I know because
Speaker 1: since then we've launched credit cards for City, their Prestige card.
Speaker 1: You know. We've worked really a lot with Capital One
Speaker 1: last year they added all these transfer partners And I
Speaker 1: think our credibility comes from the fact that a we
Speaker 1: never recommend products we don't like period full stuff. I've
Speaker 1: turned down offers all the time. We're not doing you know,
Speaker 1: crappy little partnerships with brands, just trying to get a
Speaker 1: buck from our readers, you know. And we're mathematical. We've
Speaker 1: got a team of really smart experts where people like
Speaker 1: you you can read through the bs like you. We
Speaker 1: put it in terms of these points, you know, and
Speaker 1: and how they will actually do it um you know,
Speaker 1: how you can actually get value from it. So so yeah,
Speaker 1: so the Sapphire Reserve, it was very Chase centric. But
Speaker 1: when that offer ended, it was actually one of our
Speaker 1: worst business months ever because we had focused so much
Speaker 1: on that offer nothing else was happening, and in scraping
Speaker 1: our knees. A month after it ended, we were like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, we had our worst month in like
Speaker 1: eight years. But it was a great wake up called hey,
Speaker 1: wait a minute. And then that's when we really retrenched
Speaker 1: with Amex and City and those partnerships, so totally I mean,
Speaker 1: and and everyone wins in the end. Let's talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about how you use various media to promote
Speaker 1: the business. We talked about the New York Times, we
Speaker 1: talked about the Chase Sapphire Reserve card. Let's talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about YouTube, Instagram and TikTok. How does that
Speaker 1: impact your business, your traffic and who your audiences. So,
Speaker 1: you know, we leaned heavily into social media. You know,
Speaker 1: Twitter was actually my first I thought Facebook was going
Speaker 1: to be a you know, a one lime thing and
Speaker 1: it wasn't going to really be a big business driver,
Speaker 1: which actually ended up being the opposite, because you know,
Speaker 1: in fourteen fifteen, we were investing heavily in Facebook. We
Speaker 1: wanted to build our likes up. And even though you know,
Speaker 1: Facebook likes today don't mean anything, you know, we were
Speaker 1: the first real travel blog to get over a million likes,
Speaker 1: and that was right before Chase engaged us to help
Speaker 1: with the launch of the Sapphire Reserve. So are you
Speaker 1: tracking traffic from from those channels? Yes, so we still
Speaker 1: get a about of our traffic, uh from social media
Speaker 1: from all the different channels. It's funny you mentioned TikTok
Speaker 1: because it's one of our new platforms that were just
Speaker 1: testing around within the powers wild. You know, we we
Speaker 1: had one of our edit giants. But it's excuse very
Speaker 1: it's interesting and it's just like Snapchat. I'm a little
Speaker 1: wary because Snapchat I used to love doing but then
Speaker 1: there was no there was no follow up, you know,
Speaker 1: there's no tracking, there was you know, the campaigns are
Speaker 1: all very high funnel, like oh awareness amongst a really
Speaker 1: young group about credit I'm like, meanwhile, I can go
Speaker 1: on Facebook and target the exact people I want with
Speaker 1: the right content and serve them different experiences. But yes,
Speaker 1: we you know Facebook, you know social media marketing, Yes
Speaker 1: we actually you know, we spent a ton of money
Speaker 1: every month and getting our content in front of the
Speaker 1: right people and those people get credit cards. But a
Speaker 1: large portion of it is also just building out our
Speaker 1: brand and and we send people around the world. I
Speaker 1: did a vlog this year on YouTube. Uh I never
Speaker 1: look at the dates when I look at your videos,
Speaker 1: so I really enjoy the Air Emirates experience you did. Um.
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to fly that some years ago.
Speaker 1: Air India is another one that I thought was was spectacular.
Speaker 1: What what vlog did you do this year that really
Speaker 1: stands out? So we so it's called being the points guy.
Speaker 1: We I went to Israel for the first time and
Speaker 1: it was amazing. So we flew United's new seven seven.
Speaker 1: It's great, great way to fly. Um. They actually fly
Speaker 1: from New York to San Francisco, which is awesome, and
Speaker 1: I flew l L back and l AL has a
Speaker 1: sketchy history as an airline. It's a security so their
Speaker 1: new plane. They have seven eight sevens as well, which
Speaker 1: are really nice and get great reviews. But I loved,
Speaker 1: you know, the seven forty seven, the Queen of the Sky.
Speaker 1: So I flew one of their last seven forty seven
Speaker 1: and this thing was like flying in the eighties. I
Speaker 1: mean they were astrays in the seats and uh so
Speaker 1: that screens, no, no, no screens. Uh it was and
Speaker 1: the food for some reason. I think I was in
Speaker 1: first class, and I think the food. The food was rancid.
Speaker 1: I mean I I'll eat anything on a plane, I
Speaker 1: mean even an economy. This food was truly bad. So
Speaker 1: we my friend who's a comedian, we filmed the vlog episode,
Speaker 1: you know, flying from from Tel Aviv to JFK on
Speaker 1: the seven forty seven, and it actually went viral and
Speaker 1: it actually made the news in Israel. I kept getting
Speaker 1: all these Google alerts for like weeks later that popular
Speaker 1: travel blogger flies, you know, Israel's flag carrier, and it's
Speaker 1: a hot mess. You know, Like, but what what else
Speaker 1: stands out to you amongst airlines? So the other day
Speaker 1: you mentioned Norway. Norwegian Airlines, which I've flown business class
Speaker 1: and it's amazing for the for what you get for
Speaker 1: the price, but the food is town The food is terrible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean Norwegians seven. You get a big, big, comfy reclients.
Speaker 1: This is not quite a flatbed technically premium. It's one
Speaker 1: of the best premium economies out there. Oh, it's much bigger. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The pricing is fantastic too, I mean last minute seven
Speaker 1: bucks more Europe round round trip under a thousand dollars
Speaker 1: to pass and you know, and especially when you're going
Speaker 1: to Europe, it's just under six hours these days, you
Speaker 1: know to spend you know, well from New Year JFK
Speaker 1: to Paris is just about eight hours if you include
Speaker 1: coming home time on the ground in London, I've done
Speaker 1: under six hours. Yeah, but anyway, so so but yes,
Speaker 1: so Norwegian Premium is a great product. But I'm actually
Speaker 1: about to uh et the Middle Eastern carriers are still so.
Speaker 1: Qatar Airlines their q Sweets business classes top notch. Those
Speaker 1: are like literally private rooms. It's it's crazy. And do
Speaker 1: they are they the ones with this the shower you
Speaker 1: can lay down in? Was that Emirates? So there's two
Speaker 1: airlines with showers commercially, it's Emirates. Uh and then Etti
Speaker 1: had so Etty Had not only has the showers, they
Speaker 1: have what's called the residents. And I flew it. It
Speaker 1: was my first vlog that I was their first passenger
Speaker 1: to fly JFK to Abu Dhabi. It was thirty three
Speaker 1: thou dollars of course zero because I expensed it to
Speaker 1: bankreat at the time. But you didn't you paid actually cash,
Speaker 1: you didn't use points, no, because with the residents, it
Speaker 1: would be millions and millions of points. So we paid cash,
Speaker 1: I earned points, expensed it to the parent company, UM
Speaker 1: and it must have been thrilled. But you know what
Speaker 1: the video got millions of people still come up to
Speaker 1: me today. So back to the whole point about how
Speaker 1: we use social media. Yes, we do it for conversions,
Speaker 1: but also the brand awareness that as we speak right now,
Speaker 1: people are viewing our videos being like, wow, I want
Speaker 1: to fly Emirates or this airline. They come to this
Speaker 1: I they get hooked in and so we're now you know,
Speaker 1: our our parent company, read Ventures is all about analytics
Speaker 1: and UM using data science to serve different experiences to people.
Speaker 1: So UM, yes we get a bunch of millions of
Speaker 1: visitors to the website, but we are now using social media, podcasts,
Speaker 1: um to reach all different audiences that come back to
Speaker 1: the site. And the big thing will be the app.
Speaker 1: The app. You're gonna launch a points guy app. So
Speaker 1: we have if you could, if you could make people's
Speaker 1: life easier showing them what their points could do. Well,
Speaker 1: just you wait that the home screen of the app
Speaker 1: is going to be your net worth and points really
Speaker 1: and then you're gonna be able to set trip goals.
Speaker 1: We're gonna be able to get live award availability to
Speaker 1: tell you, hey, you've got a mix points and Delta miles,
Speaker 1: you should actually use these points on these days. You're
Speaker 1: gonna pushing your target audience. I can have Delta. I
Speaker 1: have a hundred and twenty five thou Delta points. I
Speaker 1: have six hundred thousand Chase Reserve points. UM, I have
Speaker 1: the office am X points, which we then recycle into
Speaker 1: office travel. But it's always you know, when you travel
Speaker 1: for work, it's always either economy or comfort. Plus you're
Speaker 1: try and be responsible, um, when you're traveling for work,
Speaker 1: when you travel on your own. All right, you could
Speaker 1: you could indulge a little bit that said, it's all
Speaker 1: over the place, I don't know how to best this
Speaker 1: use that this app is gonna track your points. It's
Speaker 1: gonna we'll be able to instantly. We're building these algorithms
Speaker 1: and tools that look at what you're spending in the
Speaker 1: different categories, and then we'll actually slap your wrists and say, Barry,
Speaker 1: you should have been using this card for that purchase,
Speaker 1: because you actually would have gotten a ton more value
Speaker 1: back based on where you want to use your points.
Speaker 1: So it's gonna be I already have, I have the
Speaker 1: it's gonna be coming out in early but it's going
Speaker 1: to change the game because as of today, it's too confused.
Speaker 1: I mean, it is very confusing. It's challenging, and what
Speaker 1: ends up happening is you just end up accumulate what
Speaker 1: you describe as points hoarders. Um you. Now, I will
Speaker 1: use my Chase points for what for what I call
Speaker 1: um marriage counseling purchases. Meaning when our Weber grill that
Speaker 1: was twelve years old caught fire and I decided I
Speaker 1: want the big four burner grill that was twelve hundred
Speaker 1: bucks on sale at Amazon, delivered and installed, my wife's
Speaker 1: had exploded. She's like, just go replace the grill you
Speaker 1: bought for five hundred dollars twelve years ago. Well, twelve
Speaker 1: years ago is five hundred dollars. Now it's seven hundred
Speaker 1: dollars and I want the bigger one, and she's like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to spend thousand dollars on it. You're
Speaker 1: giving me a little bit of anxiety here though, because
Speaker 1: using Chase points for like merchandise, like there are all
Speaker 1: these different currencies like if you want, if you want
Speaker 1: to buy grills and merchandise and gift cards, there are
Speaker 1: cards for that, you know City double Cash that gives
Speaker 1: you two percent back. But to use those chase points
Speaker 1: where you're getting less than a center lesson value when
Speaker 1: you're three exit, can I tell you I'm dying a
Speaker 1: little bit. And it's a marriage. So whatever it costs,
Speaker 1: I wanted my damn grill. But but we'll talk more
Speaker 1: about that in a bit. So you get to travel
Speaker 1: a lot for work, and not just you know, the
Speaker 1: red Eye to Houston, but really fun places on on
Speaker 1: fun airlines. I have a whole bunch of questions. Let's
Speaker 1: start with what's your favorite place you've been to this year?
Speaker 1: This year, I um really enjoyed going to Well does
Speaker 1: it have to be a new place because Cape Town,
Speaker 1: South Africa. Really I've been seven times South. I saw
Speaker 1: the boxing Grandma's video. Yeah, that was really cool. We
Speaker 1: did that a couple of years ago. Those grannies don't
Speaker 1: fool around. I was blown away. But I love South Africa.
Speaker 1: We we do a ton of charity work. A lot
Speaker 1: of my travel is for the organizations we support, and
Speaker 1: but South Africa is just so beautiful. If you've never
Speaker 1: been Nevine Country, it's a it's a long fight. But
Speaker 1: starting in December of twenty nine, Team we Are United
Speaker 1: Airlines is gonna start finding Newark Cape Town NonStop. You
Speaker 1: know what I used to hate Newark. I live downtown Newark.
Speaker 1: I can get to in twenty minutes. JFK took me
Speaker 1: two hours the other day. And Newark now has clear
Speaker 1: The terminals are nice. I would I would push you
Speaker 1: to give it a give it a second thought. I
Speaker 1: have been giving away my clear you know, you get
Speaker 1: to five and I've been giving it to people, and
Speaker 1: you get a note when someone signs up. I am
Speaker 1: shocked that everybody isn't using that, although I was shocked
Speaker 1: that everybody wasn't using TSA PreCheck, And you still go
Speaker 1: to airports in the pre check lane, I mean empty
Speaker 1: two minutes max most of the time, and I see
Speaker 1: people waiting hours in line and normally how do people
Speaker 1: not value their time? Five years of pre check for
Speaker 1: eighty five dollars, it's the greatest deal in travel. So
Speaker 1: let's let's talk a bit. So you like Cape Town
Speaker 1: this year? What what's one of the most memorable trips
Speaker 1: you've taken well. I love my parents are just retired.
Speaker 1: They you know, my parents are like my best friends.
Speaker 1: I took them to Ghana. Um I do a good
Speaker 1: amount of charity work with phjam there. So we went
Speaker 1: to Ghana and then I took him to Tanzania on
Speaker 1: a Serengetti safari and we you know the image people
Speaker 1: people come back and talk about it for the most
Speaker 1: Safari if you've I mean, I love animals and mother nature.
Speaker 1: Safari is just spectacular. You you really only need three
Speaker 1: days of safari because you go out and you know,
Speaker 1: if you go in a real African safari, you're out
Speaker 1: for like five hours in the morning, five hours and
Speaker 1: they have a lot. By the end of like two
Speaker 1: to three days, you know you've seen it all. But
Speaker 1: that's why I like South Africa because you can do
Speaker 1: Cape Town and the stunning coastlines and the animals and
Speaker 1: wine country and safari. So that to me is like
Speaker 1: the ultimate trip. So so you're effectively a professional traveler.
Speaker 1: Tell us about some of your packing secrets and what
Speaker 1: gadgets do you like to travel? Yeah, I really so.
Speaker 1: I do the the stack in full method, which so
Speaker 1: you're not you don't roll don't roll. Nope, So I
Speaker 1: will take and I start with the heaviest item first,
Speaker 1: I'll take like a blaze. I'll do my two blazers,
Speaker 1: and then I'll do long sleeve shirts and then some
Speaker 1: T shirts. Fold the arms on and then fold them
Speaker 1: in half, smooth it out. I tell you what I
Speaker 1: can't tell you never know. I can't tell you the
Speaker 1: last time I've used a hotel, and the same thing
Speaker 1: with the hotel, I stack all the pants folded in half,
Speaker 1: folded in half again. You know if and the more
Speaker 1: you have, the less wrinkled it will be. If you've
Speaker 1: got two pants, they'll wrinkle. So and you have videos
Speaker 1: about this. Yes, So let's talk about gadgets. What what
Speaker 1: do you travel with? I see you also have the
Speaker 1: eleven Yes, I always have the best iPhone with the
Speaker 1: most storage. Um, I actually have this. They now have
Speaker 1: the dual sims, so I have a Google five card.
Speaker 1: Swap it out. So if I'm in some you know,
Speaker 1: because I've Verizon International, but sometimes they'll limit your data,
Speaker 1: so I always haven't hit that yet. It depends in
Speaker 1: certain areas and now they allow you to up it
Speaker 1: more or whatever. It's very cheap, so now in the
Speaker 1: United States, all the wireless services suck. Verizon Wireless is
Speaker 1: the least dirty shirt in the hampers. The way I
Speaker 1: describe it in general, I think, you know, T Mobile
Speaker 1: is great with their certain plans, but it's slow. I'm
Speaker 1: you know, I need some quick I'll pay whatever it
Speaker 1: takes to fast WiFi, so I'm a junkie I must have.
Speaker 1: The Google five is also really good too, as as
Speaker 1: the backup so Google fire works around the world. I
Speaker 1: forget what's it's not very expensive to have. You know,
Speaker 1: the iPhone that has dual SIMS so and then you
Speaker 1: can also click to SIM cards in that so you
Speaker 1: can flip back and forth. Do you land in a
Speaker 1: certain cards? You tell me? Yeah? What else you have?
Speaker 1: You travel with the duel SIM iPhone? I always have,
Speaker 1: you know, I've got my MacBook Air and always bring
Speaker 1: my own TV shows and movies on planes because you can.
Speaker 1: I tell you, I'm I'm so glad you say that
Speaker 1: I got the biggest, baddest iPad because I how often
Speaker 1: you stuck on a six hour flight when either you're
Speaker 1: halfway in the movie and it craps out or the
Speaker 1: whole for everyone else on the plane thirty minutes and
Speaker 1: like it's a two hour flight. So basically between between
Speaker 1: Netflix download and Dish anywhere, always have ours. That's a
Speaker 1: big thing with travel, control your own destiny. Same thing
Speaker 1: with noise canceling headphones. Yes, there will always be babies.
Speaker 1: Babies exist, They're not going anywhere people, And guess what,
Speaker 1: we all were crying babies once. So get your own
Speaker 1: bows headphones, you know, get get ones that you know,
Speaker 1: and of course sometimes you can still hear through the
Speaker 1: bow's headphone. But even then, I tell you it's really
Speaker 1: not bad. We had we had a babies behind us
Speaker 1: to and from Chicago for Thanksgiving, and um you pop
Speaker 1: in the headphones and everything in life, it's just your mindset.
Speaker 1: You know, if you walk into the airport aggrieved and mad,
Speaker 1: guess what your travel experience is gonna suck? Like just
Speaker 1: at you, I am so aren't you always angry and agreed?
Speaker 1: That part of our mindset, you know, I think in
Speaker 1: traveling and just being able to see the world and
Speaker 1: seeing how most people live, even a bad flight, you know,
Speaker 1: only one percent of the world will ever be on
Speaker 1: a plane or some crazy statistics like that, So you
Speaker 1: got to learn to roll with it. Go roll with it.
Speaker 1: Even when the in flight wifi's out. I know, I
Speaker 1: get all mad, but you know, sometimes I'll sit there.
Speaker 1: I just started doing meditations on plane. Planes are a
Speaker 1: great place to medic putting your headphones on. I do
Speaker 1: these guided meditations. That insight timer is the one that
Speaker 1: I have a friend who likes that one also and
Speaker 1: another friend who likes clean is a great time to
Speaker 1: meditate because you're sitting up right usually. Um, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of outside distractions that you can get. If that ball,
Speaker 1: if that derails you, it's a little bit of that's
Speaker 1: that's really interesting. So now let's play. Tell me what's
Speaker 1: wrong with my UM credit cards? And UM, I don't
Speaker 1: call this is what we call a wallet audit, that's right.
Speaker 1: So I I have my iPhone case, which is my
Speaker 1: new that's right, that's right, instead of a full blown wallet.
Speaker 1: So I'm showing you will pretend this is my Chase
Speaker 1: Sapphire Reserve home. Um, because I just the only problem
Speaker 1: with the iPhone wallets is you have three slots and
Speaker 1: I have a lot more jumped. So these are my
Speaker 1: two main credit cards. Memorize that number. UM, so I
Speaker 1: got the fire reserve of and the Business Gold Card,
Speaker 1: Business Platinum, this Business platinfum. Oh my god, I'm like that.
Speaker 1: And I got the Platinum specifically because if you travel
Speaker 1: domestically not first class, that will get me into most lounges. Yes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so the Platinum is the best card and the Business
Speaker 1: Platinum actually last yeart Our TPG awards one best business
Speaker 1: credit card. This card is good to any purchase over
Speaker 1: fifty or five thousand dollars. You get a fifty percent
Speaker 1: bonus that either UM and the Business Platinum gives you
Speaker 1: thirty five. So if you want to buy a thousand
Speaker 1: dollar flight Amex and most cards, it's a hundred thousand points.
Speaker 1: The Business Platinum gives you thirty five percent back, so
Speaker 1: it's only sixty five thousand points. Essentially, when you when
Speaker 1: you book through a flight through AMEX, are you're getting
Speaker 1: the same prices and a few get directly. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: mostly get the same prices once in a while. Actually
Speaker 1: a lot of times AMEX has cheaper prices and more
Speaker 1: flexible fares. Yeah, we book all of our travel at
Speaker 1: the points got through Amicx Travel. They have special especially
Speaker 1: with American Airlines and some others. They've got mostly Delta
Speaker 1: and a little bit of Jet. Pil is the other
Speaker 1: airline to Jeff blue Man, and even Jeff, I'm six seven,
Speaker 1: so even flying jeflue regular flu into coast to recave
Speaker 1: Jeff blue and I have to tell you Delta used
Speaker 1: to be twenty years ago. Delta was no fun. Yeah,
Speaker 1: don't they give my vote for the most improved airline
Speaker 1: the one they are consistently. I don't normally blow kisses
Speaker 1: to airlines. So so this is what I like about
Speaker 1: your strategy. So you've got the Sapphire Reserve, which is
Speaker 1: great for points that three x on travel and dining.
Speaker 1: So that's what you put all your travel and dining
Speaker 1: on the Sapphire Reserve. I mean yeah, because that's three
Speaker 1: x and that travel also includes tolls, parking, subways. It's
Speaker 1: a really broad travel plus no currency fee over on either,
Speaker 1: no foreign transaction fee, So yeah, you're good. The one
Speaker 1: area where I might recommend is this. This is like
Speaker 1: an advance. You could get a Chase or Freedom Unlimited
Speaker 1: card which is no annual fee, and that card gives
Speaker 1: one and a half points on everything you spend. So
Speaker 1: both of these cards only give you one point per dollar.
Speaker 1: So this is this is how you pair up to
Speaker 1: a power combo. So if you got the free Chase
Speaker 1: Freedom Unlimited, you would use that for for every day spend,
Speaker 1: you'd be earning one point five points, you'd be earning more,
Speaker 1: and then on travel and dining is what you put
Speaker 1: on your reserve and you can combine those points, so
Speaker 1: we call it um. So you just cherry picking where
Speaker 1: to spend. And this is what the tv G app
Speaker 1: is gonna help people is put you know, every day spend,
Speaker 1: like if you're gonna go to a store and buy
Speaker 1: a sweater, go to the supermarket, which which caused Supermarket.
Speaker 1: There are some cards that give pretty pretty good spend,
Speaker 1: but in general, I think you've got your AMEX for
Speaker 1: the perks, you've got the reserve for the points, and
Speaker 1: then if you've got like a Freedom Unlimited for every
Speaker 1: day spence, you're earning that one and a half points
Speaker 1: per dollar. That's a pretty big difference. And it's free,
Speaker 1: no annual fee card. How do you argue with that?
Speaker 1: It's a no brainer. So so I also noticed on
Speaker 1: your site you mentions I don't remember which card it was,
Speaker 1: but they're really good for hotels. So I normally will
Speaker 1: used the Sapphire Reserve for a hotel, especially if I'm
Speaker 1: going to You mentioned the Grand Cayman trip. We're in
Speaker 1: the Grand cam In a couple of times. Really enjoy
Speaker 1: enjoy that um anytime every February of March, you have
Speaker 1: to get to the Caribbean, get out of New York weather.
Speaker 1: What card do you use to I mean, so I used.
Speaker 1: So it's it's sad though, because so Capital one Ventures
Speaker 1: is an awesome all around card because they team up
Speaker 1: with Hotels dot Com. So Hotels dot Com is a
Speaker 1: pretty cool program, and that if you're not loyal to
Speaker 1: want any one chain, like getting low level hotel Elite
Speaker 1: settus isn't really that verty Hotels dot Com is great,
Speaker 1: and that it gives you one free night for every
Speaker 1: ten so they take the price of your the ten
Speaker 1: nights that you stayed and they give you the average
Speaker 1: price non consecutive trips, any multiple trips, so that you're
Speaker 1: basical getting ten percent back through the Hotels dot Com program.
Speaker 1: It's a solid return. With the Capital one Venture card,
Speaker 1: they give you a ten points per dollar on all
Speaker 1: Hotels dot Com, so that's another ten percent, so you're
Speaker 1: basically getting back on hotels and this is pretty much
Speaker 1: any hotel in the world. So. Um the sad thing
Speaker 1: about that that that partnership ends in January. Um, so
Speaker 1: Capital one Venture and Hotels dot Com has been my
Speaker 1: go to. The partnership ends in January. Wait, this is
Speaker 1: this is done. This is pretty much and they may
Speaker 1: extend it. I haven't heard yet, but that has been
Speaker 1: to go to. The other card I'll say is if
Speaker 1: you're actually know what City Prestige used to be the
Speaker 1: card for. They give you fourth night free and they
Speaker 1: just fourth night free hotel in the world. Over the years,
Speaker 1: I've gotten thousands and thousands. Did they still do that? They?
Speaker 1: You know, City has been pulling back a lot of
Speaker 1: the perks and so now they limited to two a
Speaker 1: year and the rates are not as low as they
Speaker 1: watered it down. That's too. Now that raises another question.
Speaker 1: People have been saying that people who I normally think
Speaker 1: of as astute travelers and points people that it's gotten
Speaker 1: much harder of late Chase Sapphire Reserve change the landscape
Speaker 1: for everybody, and some people will decided. Some companies decided
Speaker 1: to compete. Another companies said no, We're gonna make it
Speaker 1: more difficult. Well, I think all of them. I think so.
Speaker 1: My contrarian view to that is that things are actually
Speaker 1: way better than they've ever been because there are more
Speaker 1: wastearing credit cards today. You know, even the Amex Gold
Speaker 1: now offers four X on dining. They one up the
Speaker 1: Sapphire Reserve, so the Amex Gold is four X on
Speaker 1: dining and in several other categories. There's actually so many
Speaker 1: categories to earn. You just got to pick and choose,
Speaker 1: and choose the ones that you know give you the
Speaker 1: most value. Back now on the flip side, because there's
Speaker 1: so many miles in the ecosystem, you know, the airlines
Speaker 1: have been raising the amount of miles needed for flight.
Speaker 1: But considering you can still get eight hundred thousand points
Speaker 1: for sign up bonuses, then you're earning two, three, four, five,
Speaker 1: ten X on spend. The smart points maximizers are still
Speaker 1: coming out ahead. You just have to put the work
Speaker 1: in and you stick around a little bit. I have
Speaker 1: a ton of lush. Absolutely. We have been speaking with
Speaker 1: Brian Kelly, better known as the Points Guy. If you
Speaker 1: enjoy this conversation, we'll be shut and come back for
Speaker 1: the podcast extras. Will you keep the tape rolling and
Speaker 1: continue discussing all things travel. We love your comments, feedback
Speaker 1: in suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot net. Check out my weekly column on Bloomberg
Speaker 1: dot com. Follow me on Twitter at Rid Halts. I'm
Speaker 1: Barry Hults. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast, Brian. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: doing this. I don't I don't know what inspired me
Speaker 1: to reach out to you guys, but I'm a fan
Speaker 1: of the site. I really like what you're doing. Um.
Speaker 1: We were talking earlier about the YouTube stuff. I love
Speaker 1: the passenger shaming videos. They're so good. It's if you
Speaker 1: fly regularly. And I don't fly nearly as much as
Speaker 1: you do, but I fly enough. The behavior of people
Speaker 1: on airplanes, I mean it used to be bad on
Speaker 1: the commuter rail lines. People have kinda settled into a routine.
Speaker 1: But I don't think people fly enough to your stand
Speaker 1: um or we're reared by actual adult humans to understand that.
Speaker 1: Don't take off your shoes and socks and start clipping
Speaker 1: your toenails on the plane and you wegs your foot
Speaker 1: in between a seat and kind of creep around. How
Speaker 1: do you not just pull out a machete and chop
Speaker 1: that guy's foot off. It's it's imagine having a barefoot comprise.
Speaker 1: There's not more of that on on planes, you know,
Speaker 1: like all out assaults. I get I get bent out
Speaker 1: of shape when people don't think and are inefficient. So
Speaker 1: leaving the leaving the plane, we we got to we
Speaker 1: got to um LaGuardia early. There was a gate by
Speaker 1: some miracle ready for us in the new Delta D terminal,
Speaker 1: so it was all good. There's a couple I don't
Speaker 1: know why. She's sitting in ten D and she's in
Speaker 1: twelve B and they're having a conversation like that was crazy.
Speaker 1: When it's time to get off the plane, he decides
Speaker 1: he has to organize his Sunday New York Times. This
Speaker 1: I was like an arterial plaque and the entire plane
Speaker 1: is blocked up behind him, and I wanted to pull
Speaker 1: out the phone and videotape him, but I was like,
Speaker 1: I gotta roll with it. You gotta be Yeah, that's true,
Speaker 1: you can get upset by it, but I think in general,
Speaker 1: you just gotta let it, let it go. Some of
Speaker 1: the behavior is a little over the top. I love
Speaker 1: this little segment about the um stewardess call button, the
Speaker 1: things people use that for. Well, I've looked a little
Speaker 1: bit bad because I've been in first class before, and
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes the flight attendants go, M I A,
Speaker 1: and You're right, come on, and a lot of times
Speaker 1: I do pay for my ticket and I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: I kind of want a cocktail. I had no idea.
Speaker 1: And then and then well, Don Cathleen's like, never used
Speaker 1: the overhead for cocktails. I'm like, really you can. If
Speaker 1: you pay full boat, you could use that for cocktails.
Speaker 1: What you can't do is push the button and ask
Speaker 1: the stewardess to have the plane fly to lower altitude
Speaker 1: so you could get a picture of the Grand Canyon.
Speaker 1: And I'm assuming all the other examples stuff from life.
Speaker 1: She has stories, she espe she flew on a regional carrier.
Speaker 1: She has stories for days. But uh, it kind of
Speaker 1: reminds me. I flew with Madonna once and she we're
Speaker 1: delayed leaving JFK and the pilot comes out I'm so
Speaker 1: sorry it's raining, and she just goes step on it.
Speaker 1: While we're in the air. I need to make up
Speaker 1: time and the pilot was like okay. I was like,
Speaker 1: so really yeah, it was like I think she was
Speaker 1: kind of joking. Okay. I also, here's some one tip
Speaker 1: you should never do. I took my sleeping but this
Speaker 1: is my rookie days. This is like, you never take
Speaker 1: the pill. And I partner to do the same thing
Speaker 1: in a hilarious series of disasters. I took my I
Speaker 1: took it my pill, and then of course I'm putting
Speaker 1: my overhead bag and I'm starting to get woozy and
Speaker 1: I turned around and it's freaking Madonna boarding the plane.
Speaker 1: So then I'm trying to stay awake. We're delayed on
Speaker 1: the tarmac. She's doing all these antics. I'm like, why
Speaker 1: did I take this pill? And then I woke up
Speaker 1: the next morning like did that happen? Don't flying private
Speaker 1: well because of a lot of celebrities. Now most celebrities
Speaker 1: are now flying commercial because of the you know environment,
Speaker 1: and you can't be crusader for all right. I see
Speaker 1: tons of a list celebrities, royals, people, you know, there's
Speaker 1: people watching on planes. Wow, So I had I had
Speaker 1: the greatest experience yesterday with the pilot. I can't I
Speaker 1: don't ever recall seeing this. So there's all this weather
Speaker 1: going on Thanksgiving weekend, most of it to the west,
Speaker 1: but there's gonna be some potential issues on the flight back.
Speaker 1: He comes out and makes an announcement in the waiting
Speaker 1: area before people board. Hey, just want to let you
Speaker 1: know we're gonna hit a bunch of weather. The first
Speaker 1: half hour will be fine, but it will be bumpy
Speaker 1: and problematic for the second half. We'll do our best
Speaker 1: to work our way around the weather and get you
Speaker 1: there smoothly and safely. And and it was just like, wow,
Speaker 1: that's such a great and throughout the throughout the flight,
Speaker 1: like they're not great about communicating what really is going on.
Speaker 1: It always feels like they're reading a script like this guy, like, Wow,
Speaker 1: what approach. I've had pilots like that. I love that
Speaker 1: preflight brief, like some of them really. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think most pilots enjoy their job. I know they're all,
Speaker 1: you know, overworked and whatever, but yeah, I love Please
Speaker 1: don't tell me they're overworked overtired. You don't want to
Speaker 1: hear that, right, Although the planes can land themselves these
Speaker 1: days theoretically, so so let me get to some of
Speaker 1: the questions we missed. Um during the broadcast broadcast portion, Um,
Speaker 1: you you mentioned peace Jam. Let's so let's talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about inclusivity and giving back. Tell us what
Speaker 1: peace Jam is. So peace Jam is awesome. I you know,
Speaker 1: when when the business really took off, I really wanted
Speaker 1: to you know, there were tons of charities reaching out
Speaker 1: for right checks, right checks, and you know that's never
Speaker 1: anything you know, I wanted to get involved with an
Speaker 1: organization that was going to use travel to help change
Speaker 1: you know, the world, so to speak, even though that's
Speaker 1: a pretty wide thing. And a friend of mine said,
Speaker 1: you know, I love kids. I was almost a teach
Speaker 1: for America teacher out of college. And I think even
Speaker 1: being the Points Guy teach education or like a great
Speaker 1: joy from like watching people learn. And you know, so,
Speaker 1: um So peace Jam is fifteen of the world's best
Speaker 1: Nobel Peace Prize winner, So the Dalai Lama Desmond to
Speaker 1: to Lama Bowie. So they are the board members and
Speaker 1: it's their organization to take their learnings and their life
Speaker 1: story to kids around the world. So it's so peace
Speaker 1: Jam itself is in a bunch of different countries. At
Speaker 1: the Points Guy, we sponsor it in Guatemala, Ghana, Liberia,
Speaker 1: South Africa and East Team War. Do you sponsor it
Speaker 1: with points? So we do. So it started out we
Speaker 1: were we were giving points to the Nobel Laureates to
Speaker 1: you know, because even the Fly Ghana is our biggest chapter.
Speaker 1: Now to fly a Nobel Laureate and their assistant, it's expensive.
Speaker 1: How do you transfer your points to a Nobel Laureate
Speaker 1: so you can transfer to my loyalty account my Amex.
Speaker 1: Let's say a Fly Delta. They fly JFK to Acra Ghana,
Speaker 1: so we would transfer my Amex to my Delta and
Speaker 1: then I can you know, and once you have points,
Speaker 1: you can book it when you want. So that's how
Speaker 1: it started. We called Points for Peace. So basically we
Speaker 1: bring these Nobel Laureates about talk about perfect branding. So
Speaker 1: we so we've able to bring these Nobel Peace Prize winners.
Speaker 1: You know, we've got six hundred kids in in gone
Speaker 1: to high school kids. They study about the laureate all
Speaker 1: year long and then we bring the lor like the
Speaker 1: Nobel Peace Prize winner, they spend all weekend. We have
Speaker 1: this unbelievable you know, they learned how to fix the
Speaker 1: problems in their community. Start small, small actions then lead
Speaker 1: to bigger change. I mean, by the end of a week,
Speaker 1: I get chilse even thinking about it's spending time with
Speaker 1: you know, these Nobel Peace Prize winners who have helped
Speaker 1: end civil wars. Who are you know, we work with
Speaker 1: Jody Williams who and you know helped in land mines
Speaker 1: and should we bring her to kids around the world
Speaker 1: and it really empowers them to make their communities better.
Speaker 1: So that's been a I get to travel all around
Speaker 1: the world with you know, these amazing Nobel Peace Prize
Speaker 1: winners and bringing that message to kids. And let's talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about you're an out CEO and business founder.
Speaker 1: You also like to give back to the LGBT community.
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about what you do with that. Yeah, so,
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I'm so lucky, I'm I'm my parents
Speaker 1: love me, I've got a great partner. I'm out in
Speaker 1: business even you know, it's nervous racking when your business
Speaker 1: gets taken over? Are the are the new owners of
Speaker 1: the company going to be? You know? Allow me today,
Speaker 1: even today, I'm a Jewish white guy working in finance,
Speaker 1: so I know what it's like in New York so
Speaker 1: I know what it's like to be oppressed. Um, and
Speaker 1: I say that, you know, only half joking or fully joking.
Speaker 1: But let me say that again. It's hard to imagine
Speaker 1: in that that's still an issue in my little New York. Well,
Speaker 1: red Ventures, my parent company, they you know, all I
Speaker 1: heard was they're taking their Red Ventures is buying banquet
Speaker 1: and they're Charlotte based, and you know, in Charlotte, in
Speaker 1: North Carolina, there were some pretty nasty you know, the
Speaker 1: we had the whole HB two. Luckily I googled and
Speaker 1: and Rick Elias, who's our CEO. He's a staunch you know,
Speaker 1: you know, he's born in Puerto Rico. We do all
Speaker 1: this crazy social giving back and everything's fine. But there
Speaker 1: are a lot of friends, and I know, soul businesses
Speaker 1: they clash personally with you know, you're not a part
Speaker 1: of that inner click of boys or whatever. So so anyway,
Speaker 1: so I've been very fortunate. And I remember reading the
Speaker 1: New York Times two years go and it was about
Speaker 1: gay concentration camps in Czechnia. And I remember reading going,
Speaker 1: this is crazy. In twenty seventeen or eighteen, there cannot
Speaker 1: be concentration And in Chechnya. The leader that it was
Speaker 1: rounding up gay people and they were taking their phones
Speaker 1: and it was this they were actually in camps. Many
Speaker 1: people have been killed. So d Rainbow Railroad we we
Speaker 1: started donating our miles, so we actually booked flights for
Speaker 1: people who are in places like Czechnia. Jamaica is actually
Speaker 1: the one of the worst places in the world for
Speaker 1: LGBT people. Jamaica. I just went there was sixty minutes
Speaker 1: this year and we did a whole expose on if
Speaker 1: you're gay in Jamaica, there's a huge chance you'll get
Speaker 1: tossed in the street. They trans people are killed almost weekly.
Speaker 1: There's what that happens in the US. Also what happens everywhere.
Speaker 1: Luckily in the US, I think we've definitely made steps
Speaker 1: since the Matthew Shepard days in the nineties, but you know,
Speaker 1: uh and a lot of countries Egypt even you get
Speaker 1: kicked out at least is not especially gay friendly. So
Speaker 1: we so we used fregam flyer myse we donate our
Speaker 1: money and so we now bring Rainbow Railroad gets people
Speaker 1: asylum in countries like Canada and Argentina. So it's been
Speaker 1: really I've gotten a chance to meet last summer in Toronto.
Speaker 1: They were about thirty uh people from Czechnia that we
Speaker 1: actually have helped through our campaign. Our readers donated millions
Speaker 1: of miles and they looked me in the eyes and
Speaker 1: are like the minute that that plane took off from
Speaker 1: Moscow and I knew that I was on my way
Speaker 1: to freedom, they just started bawling. And so it's kind
Speaker 1: of cool. So my whole thing on a giving back
Speaker 1: is like the power of travel can change lives, and
Speaker 1: I know I've changed as a person. I believe the
Speaker 1: more people travel in general, you know, barriers breakdown. So uh,
Speaker 1: it's really cool to be able to uh, you know,
Speaker 1: to help others. Quite interesting. So I have to ask
Speaker 1: you a couple of more business questions because, um, everything
Speaker 1: that's going on these days with Google and Facebook, traditional
Speaker 1: web advertising as a business not so great these days.
Speaker 1: So how are you balancing that? Um? Are you more
Speaker 1: driven by advertising? Is it more affiliate? How do you
Speaker 1: how do you deal with the declining um CPMs? And
Speaker 1: just essentially the web is infinite, well funny enough, you know,
Speaker 1: when I started, I thought, oh my god, this affiliate
Speaker 1: thing seems shady, you know, And It's funny now all
Speaker 1: the major publications are going affiliate. You know, New York
Speaker 1: Times has Wirecutter and um so affiliates where it's at
Speaker 1: because if if you truly have good content that helps
Speaker 1: your reader get a product they want, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's the perfect but balance. So our our revenue has
Speaker 1: been wildly growing over the last several years. We also
Speaker 1: want to diversify so uh so we've never sold CPMs.
Speaker 1: Really we do some small packages, but in general, I
Speaker 1: mean the bulk of our sales are affiliate and the
Speaker 1: credit card markets are strong. My biggest concern isn't as
Speaker 1: much Google and um you know, the privacy is a
Speaker 1: bigger concern, and especially as we create this app where
Speaker 1: people are going to share where they want to go
Speaker 1: and the airlines they want to fly and sharing, you know,
Speaker 1: so that to me, you know, we're getting ready for
Speaker 1: the California privacy laws are about to go into effect
Speaker 1: in January, which changes the game. So that space is
Speaker 1: really challenging, um even how you target consumers and and look,
Speaker 1: I believe we should have more privacy on the Internet.
Speaker 1: Europe is not so far off with what they're doing
Speaker 1: of all the way I mean, California is arguably more
Speaker 1: um more strict than GDPR, So it's a it's a
Speaker 1: challenging landscape, but I think what we focused on is
Speaker 1: just continuing to build out content for people that they love.
Speaker 1: Ad Blockers don't work when the advertisement is the content
Speaker 1: that people want to read. So although ad blocker extensions
Speaker 1: for Chrome and things like that, they stop working. Now
Speaker 1: it's easy enough to detect them and blur the content
Speaker 1: and say, if you want to access the content for free,
Speaker 1: you have to disable your ad blocker. So so that
Speaker 1: arms races ended. I think you guys have the right balance,
Speaker 1: the idea that if you have the right audience and
Speaker 1: the right demographic and they're consuming the content because they
Speaker 1: want to, not because you trick them into a click,
Speaker 1: that's got exactly. And the thing we've doubled down onto
Speaker 1: is community. So we've got this huge Facebook. You know,
Speaker 1: so Facebook stopped showing publishers in the news feed. Oh crap,
Speaker 1: what do you do? So what we've been doing for
Speaker 1: years we have a community. But people come to our events.
Speaker 1: Uh So on Facebook, we've got a TPG lounge it
Speaker 1: as I think over eighty thousand members. We just launched
Speaker 1: a small business community, a family community. We just launch
Speaker 1: our women's community, so now, I mean, and that's what
Speaker 1: Facebook's all about. So you just as a publisher, you've
Speaker 1: got to just keep evolving with the time. And that's
Speaker 1: that's I think My job is CEO Now it's I
Speaker 1: don't write posts as much anymore, although I am very
Speaker 1: very much uh involved in our total editorial process and
Speaker 1: pushing the team to be better and how we review
Speaker 1: flights and you know, creating higher quality content. But now
Speaker 1: it's shifting the landscape and I do I mean, our
Speaker 1: app is going to be the uh, the next generation
Speaker 1: of our company and how we'll be able to target
Speaker 1: content to people exactly for what they want. Today it's
Speaker 1: one size fits all. It can be very confusing to
Speaker 1: go to the points guy and be like, it's a lot,
Speaker 1: where do I start watch card? I just want to
Speaker 1: go here, And these tools that we're building are gonna
Speaker 1: save people time and tons of money. So I'm really excited.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm looking forward to the app because the
Speaker 1: thing that you chastise me for before I have to
Speaker 1: ask about. So I will occasionally spend some money with
Speaker 1: Mike Chase Reserve card not on travel, spend some points
Speaker 1: on stuff, and often it's Amazon, because just drop it
Speaker 1: off on your front door. Um, you're telling me that's
Speaker 1: not the right way to do it. I'm much better
Speaker 1: off transferring those points to Delta. Well point, you can't
Speaker 1: transfer to Delta, But like Chase, points are super valuable
Speaker 1: when you transferred to United or high It or if
Speaker 1: you redeem for travel because you're getting one point five
Speaker 1: cents a point when when you say redeem for travel.
Speaker 1: So so Chase gives you two main options when it
Speaker 1: comes time to book travel. You can transfer United IT
Speaker 1: or Southwest or you know, Hiatt several other partners, or
Speaker 1: you can just use those points to buy tickets. Now
Speaker 1: with the Sapphire Reserve, what they will say is you
Speaker 1: get one point five cents a point, So a hundred
Speaker 1: thousand points is in travel. A hundred thousand points when
Speaker 1: used for gift cards is usually a thousand or less.
Speaker 1: So that's why I say where I cringe, use your
Speaker 1: Chase points for travel. And then if you truly want
Speaker 1: Amazon or merchandise, there are better cards that will give
Speaker 1: you more bang for your buck. So like a City
Speaker 1: double cash card, no annual fee, two percent back when
Speaker 1: you paid off each month. So if you spend a
Speaker 1: hundred thousand bucks on that, you're gonna get two thousand
Speaker 1: dollars to buy whatever you want. So you strike me
Speaker 1: as a guy who's got a dozen cards in as
Speaker 1: wallet probably double that. Really Yeah, well, I mean, isn't
Speaker 1: that kind of confusing to say I'm buying this? So
Speaker 1: let me figure out which? In our new app, it
Speaker 1: will literally say but you know, pay with this feature,
Speaker 1: so we'll tell you where you are. What you can say,
Speaker 1: I'm at Starbucks. We can actually say this this you know,
Speaker 1: this quarter put your Starbucks not on the sapphire, but
Speaker 1: you know, on your you know, Freedom card because Starbucks
Speaker 1: is the quarterly category. It's really really it changes. But
Speaker 1: that's the technology that we're building. And then we'll also,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of credit cards these days will
Speaker 1: give you bonuses, you know, especially the airline cards. If
Speaker 1: you're if you're chasing elite status, you know, you spend
Speaker 1: on an American Airlines card, you'll get a bump, you know,
Speaker 1: an elite mile. So our app is going to track
Speaker 1: all of that and to make sure that not only
Speaker 1: the points, but that you're getting the maximum perks as well.
Speaker 1: You know there's master cards now that will give you
Speaker 1: five dollars off every lift ride, which most people don't
Speaker 1: even realize. That's a big that this new world master
Speaker 1: card gives you five dollars off every ride. So most
Speaker 1: it's really confusing to keep track of When will I
Speaker 1: be able to use your app to just swipe that
Speaker 1: and never have to think about it. It's coming out,
Speaker 1: and I would say, March of we're still we're in
Speaker 1: testing right now, we're breaking it. Um, it's gonna be
Speaker 1: worth a wait though, So March I'm excited about all right,
Speaker 1: So let's say we'll kill me for saying that. But
Speaker 1: early now they know when they have to all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, you just gave them a deadline, all right,
Speaker 1: so let's do our speed round. We'll we'll blow through
Speaker 1: this pretty quickly. Um. The ideas to kind of get
Speaker 1: to know a little bit more about Brian Kelly than
Speaker 1: than we know already. So so tell us what you're streaming,
Speaker 1: listening to, downloading, watching what what which got your attention
Speaker 1: these I am into the Morning show on Apple Plus
Speaker 1: the Morning I really you know, going on morning shows
Speaker 1: quite a bit. It's actually you know, I always see
Speaker 1: you know, I'm only there from my segment and leave,
Speaker 1: but you can always sense that there's like these power
Speaker 1: struggles on set, and so it's it's a fascinating watch
Speaker 1: and it's also a microcosm of like what's going on
Speaker 1: in our world today. So I think they've done a
Speaker 1: good job with that. Anything else you're you're downloading any podcast?
Speaker 1: What are you listening to podcast? You know my friend
Speaker 1: Heather McMahon, she's really hysterical comedian, uh McMahon, Heather McMahon.
Speaker 1: Her her podcast is called Absolutely Not and she just
Speaker 1: rail is on everything and travel in life. So I
Speaker 1: like a I like to feel good laughing podcast. And also,
Speaker 1: you know, I have to plug my podcast talking Points.
Speaker 1: Not that I listened to my own podcast because I
Speaker 1: get to experience it, but so I sometimes just as
Speaker 1: an aside, I find like on a shorter flight, sometimes
Speaker 1: I'm not going to watch a movie and I could
Speaker 1: just pop in a freaking omics or a Mark and
Speaker 1: it's a right, it's a perfect hour, and like, oh
Speaker 1: I'm here already. That's it really does help pass the time.
Speaker 1: I don't I live a block away from work, so
Speaker 1: I don't luckily to walk to work. So yeah, it's
Speaker 1: on planes. When I do listen to podcasts, now I
Speaker 1: get sometimes you're too tired to read. You don't even
Speaker 1: you don't even want to watch something energy to listen,
Speaker 1: but just to close your eyes, just like take take
Speaker 1: me away, caln absolutely. Um. So what's the most important
Speaker 1: thing people don't know about you? So interesting? I don't
Speaker 1: think many people know that. But I'm actually a development
Speaker 1: chief in a tribe in Ghana about an hour and
Speaker 1: a half outside of Akras. My name is nen Quescy
Speaker 1: matt te Chu the first and about four years ago,
Speaker 1: through the charity work I do there, the uh, the
Speaker 1: guy who's my partner in crime there, we've kind of
Speaker 1: elevated him as our head of peace movement in Africa
Speaker 1: as a way of saying thank you to everything I've
Speaker 1: done for him. Um, he made me. He bequeathed his
Speaker 1: title to me, um as a as a way of
Speaker 1: saying thank you for helping elevate his life with all
Speaker 1: these nobel peace Probably you grew up in poverty and
Speaker 1: now he's on the global stage with these Nobel laureates.
Speaker 1: So he made me a development chief and I go
Speaker 1: back at least once or twice a year, and um,
Speaker 1: it's really amazing. I've got all my robes and they,
Speaker 1: uh it's a it's a very unique. I took my
Speaker 1: parents there and they were just like, you know, they're
Speaker 1: they're like, how did you how did you go from
Speaker 1: just growing up in the Philly suburbs to now being
Speaker 1: a chief in in Ghana? You know that's you mentioned
Speaker 1: your parents. Um, who are some of your early mentors?
Speaker 1: And I suspect your your parents might be one of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: My had I call him the original points guy. He's
Speaker 1: actually named Brian Kelly. He's the third boy of three
Speaker 1: boys and a girl. Um, and I always admired him.
Speaker 1: He was a business traveler and healthcare and um he
Speaker 1: taught me. And that was in the nineties is uh.
Speaker 1: He had points and he said, Brian, if you can
Speaker 1: I was twelve years old. He said, if you can
Speaker 1: figure out how to use these, will go on vacation.
Speaker 1: You know, family of six, we didn't have a ton
Speaker 1: of money to just blow on fancy vacations. And that
Speaker 1: was when I figured out how to go to the
Speaker 1: Cayman Islands and uh so, and he also started he
Speaker 1: gave me my first job. I started booking travel for him.
Speaker 1: Um because he so. My dad for sure is one
Speaker 1: of my earliest mentors. Now, did you ever tell him
Speaker 1: you were cheating and using Travelocity? I did, and and
Speaker 1: he's been at speaking gigs with me now and he
Speaker 1: laughed at me because I make it seem like he was.
Speaker 1: He was computer illiterate. That's why he paid me to do.
Speaker 1: He's like, you make me sound so stupid not knowing
Speaker 1: how to use a computer. I'm like, well, you kind
Speaker 1: of word that was information arbitrox. Um. So who influenced
Speaker 1: your approach to travel, to points to credit cards? Obviously
Speaker 1: your father? Who else? I mean Richard Branson in terms
Speaker 1: of travel and entrepreneurship and uh like he's just taught
Speaker 1: me a lot and I got got a chance to
Speaker 1: interview him on my podcast, and and just having fun
Speaker 1: in business. I think that was something I've lost along
Speaker 1: the way sometimes is it's not always fun, but too
Speaker 1: you do as a CEO of a business, you can
Speaker 1: set the tone, you know, and you can help hire
Speaker 1: people and motivate people to have fun. And I do
Speaker 1: believe businesses are more successful when people are really invested. Um.
Speaker 1: But in terms of traveling, I didn't grow. I didn't
Speaker 1: go to abroad until I was in college, really well
Speaker 1: besides the Cayman Islands. So I've learned to kind of
Speaker 1: be a traveler on my own in a certain way.
Speaker 1: But that's been kind of fun, um, I can imagine.
Speaker 1: So so let's talk about everybody's favorite question. Tell us
Speaker 1: about some of the books you enjoy reading. What What
Speaker 1: are some of your favorites? What are you reading now? So?
Speaker 1: I just finished Bob Iger's book The Ride of My Life,
Speaker 1: which I found really fascinating. And also, you know, I've
Speaker 1: been running the Points Guy for going on ten years now,
Speaker 1: and he had a similar thing where he no one
Speaker 1: wanted him to keep running Disney because he was the
Speaker 1: old guy, you know, fresh new leadership, and of course
Speaker 1: that always goes, you know, even though the Points Guy,
Speaker 1: frankly as a big business is only you know for
Speaker 1: the last several years. But I do worry about myself
Speaker 1: and staying and how do I be creative? How do
Speaker 1: we push and innovate? So I thought his book was
Speaker 1: really really I didn't know a lot of it behind
Speaker 1: the scenes stuff. I also read Travis the book Uh
Speaker 1: Super Pumped, which is the about I mean that have
Speaker 1: you read. It is insane, it's it's a page turner,
Speaker 1: and it's also a perfect model of how to not
Speaker 1: run a business. I mean the stories, I mean, and
Speaker 1: they're all sourced too. I mean, this is not just
Speaker 1: like a gossip, even though they want you to think that,
Speaker 1: like what was going on in the that bro culture.
Speaker 1: And so those two books I've read recently and I
Speaker 1: really liked. And then in terms of inspiration, Layma Bowie.
Speaker 1: She's a Nobel Peace Prize winner from Liberia. She brought
Speaker 1: hmen together to help end the bloody civil war there,
Speaker 1: and she wrote this book, Mighty Be Our Powers, and
Speaker 1: it's just the story. She was on the floor of
Speaker 1: a refugee camp, had no degree, had three kids and
Speaker 1: alcoholic husband, and it was her whole story and rising
Speaker 1: up being a community leader. And now she's, you know,
Speaker 1: on the floor of the u N opening up sessions
Speaker 1: and she is this world leader and it's like it
Speaker 1: really gives you that inspiration that you know, even on
Speaker 1: our worst days, we've got it pretty good, to say
Speaker 1: the least. By the way, if you liked the Uber book,
Speaker 1: did you read Bad Blood? I did not, so I
Speaker 1: haven't read the Uber book, but it's the top of
Speaker 1: my list, and it sounds very much like John Carrirew's
Speaker 1: book Bad Blood about Sarah Knows. Oh yeah, so I'm
Speaker 1: gonna make that I'm gonna do on Netflix, which we're
Speaker 1: not sane. It's insane. The book goes into so much detail.
Speaker 1: I I know, I'm going to really like the Uber book.
Speaker 1: And based on you really like Uber book, this is
Speaker 1: you should for your next flight. You'll plow through it.
Speaker 1: It was really a fast read. Um tell us about
Speaker 1: a time you failed and what you learned from the experience.
Speaker 1: I would actually say so in college in general, I failed,
Speaker 1: Like I'm a smart guy, but I just, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I do have a certain level of a
Speaker 1: d D. And going to lecture, I mean, I just
Speaker 1: I couldn't care less. I mean, I failed astronomy. I
Speaker 1: went to University of Pittsburgh and it wasn't But what
Speaker 1: I learned was I think I think I learned. So
Speaker 1: I was student body president, I was ahead of my
Speaker 1: fraternity recruitment. I was like, I really put all my
Speaker 1: energy into people and what I really like doing and
Speaker 1: I think, you know, and I got rejected from m
Speaker 1: y U in high school and it's always it crushed me,
Speaker 1: and now it's kind of cool that you know. I
Speaker 1: uh So, the lesson kids is don't worry about academics.
Speaker 1: It's the an extent. I mean, you look at so
Speaker 1: many successful people in business and now many academics are
Speaker 1: very successful. But I don't know, just throw yourself into
Speaker 1: something that you like that's going to get you further.
Speaker 1: And what I learned being student body president was more
Speaker 1: than any you know, intro to you know, economics one
Speaker 1: on one. So I was gonna ask you what you
Speaker 1: do for fun? But it seems travel right, Well, you know,
Speaker 1: if I could teleport, I would I true, I mean
Speaker 1: I have look, I have a good time. I have
Speaker 1: a good time on playing well, let me let me
Speaker 1: interrupt you. Are you a star Trek fan? I am
Speaker 1: not at all right, so you should be aware of
Speaker 1: the fact. The problem with teleportation is hold the hold
Speaker 1: the physics issues asside. Essentially, we take you apart molecule
Speaker 1: by molecule, make a map of exactly what you are,
Speaker 1: and transport you send energy to another location where the
Speaker 1: rebuild you molecule by molecule. So effectively, we've killed you
Speaker 1: and rebuilt a new one of you. Not the greatest
Speaker 1: thing in the world. What what is it like? Is
Speaker 1: it like jet lag times at thousand? Whenever you teleport?
Speaker 1: Well from the strange trek version is you're fine, You're
Speaker 1: just stopping going so and you are limited in distance,
Speaker 1: but you can teleport from space to wherever. But when
Speaker 1: you actually think about the way it works. What was
Speaker 1: the recent Netflix show or maybe it was the Amazon
Speaker 1: Prime show? Um, I'm drawing a blank on it where
Speaker 1: effectively someone goes to get clones and they killed the
Speaker 1: clone to kill the original and keep the clone. The
Speaker 1: clone is updated and healthier, and I'm drawing a blank
Speaker 1: on the name. But so, okay, maybe I won't time travel,
Speaker 1: but for fun, I do like exploring, not other universes,
Speaker 1: but the underwater world. I'm a huge scuba dive, So
Speaker 1: what do you like to go? So you mentioned the Caymans,
Speaker 1: which is great. I'm actually one of my best size
Speaker 1: was cams. I do Maldive, so I'm actually going there
Speaker 1: this holiday seasons. Um. I had a disappointing dive in
Speaker 1: the Great Barrier Reef. It was bad conditions. But one
Speaker 1: of my big trips I want to take that I
Speaker 1: haven't really done is Palau, South Pacific little because all
Speaker 1: those reefs are going away, right, It's crazy down there,
Speaker 1: the barrier reef is dying. It's I mean it's visible
Speaker 1: from face space. Yes, actually, uh you could see the
Speaker 1: in the in the some of the satellite photos. Huge
Speaker 1: miles and miles have died also. It's crazy. Um, So
Speaker 1: what are you most optimistic about relative to travel today?
Speaker 1: And what do you most pessimists. I think we just
Speaker 1: start touched on. The most pessimistic is the climate. You know,
Speaker 1: I live in Miami too, I split split my time there,
Speaker 1: and just seeing that, you know, reading the article, is
Speaker 1: that in thirty years Miami could be underwater. And now
Speaker 1: that they may, they may stop. You know, the whole
Speaker 1: state may go under soon. Because you know, let's be honest, though,
Speaker 1: that wouldn't be the worst, right right, No, No, I'm
Speaker 1: not New Yorker. And you know you look at Florida.
Speaker 1: It's like, all right, if Florida goes underwater, they're a
Speaker 1: worse environment. So yeah, so the climate chain stuff and
Speaker 1: and you know, Fran the guilt from you know, even
Speaker 1: though we carbon offset all of our employees travel, you know,
Speaker 1: it's you know, I'm in a business that's encouraging millions
Speaker 1: of people to travel more so that now I still believe,
Speaker 1: you know, travels ten percent of global GDP. It lifts
Speaker 1: people up, it changes people. So but it isn't you know,
Speaker 1: seeing what's happening on Earth is pretty It isn't Airline
Speaker 1: travel much more efficient than getting in the car and
Speaker 1: driving cross country. I mean, I think there's a lot
Speaker 1: of ways to slice and dice it. I mean, for
Speaker 1: frequent flyers, your carbon footprint is much more than anyone
Speaker 1: in a car um But optimistically speaking, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think this is a golden age of travel in terms
Speaker 1: of you know, these new planes that are more carbon efficient, safer,
Speaker 1: you can now travel. I just sent one of my
Speaker 1: employees on that quantist flight from JFK to Sydney NonStop.
Speaker 1: N I think it might have even crossed twenty But
Speaker 1: even you know, New Ork to Singapore's eighteen and a
Speaker 1: half now, So the fact that you can fly on
Speaker 1: safe safer than ever, it's still cheap. You can still
Speaker 1: go to Europe from under five bucks. We had Asia
Speaker 1: deals this class. You know recently that we're to go
Speaker 1: to Asia round trip, but you can't. Really, it's crazy
Speaker 1: and even business class. So I think I'm optimistic. In general,
Speaker 1: travel is connecting the world more than ever, Um, But
Speaker 1: we just gotta we gotta treat mother Earth a little
Speaker 1: bit better. And what sort of advice would you give
Speaker 1: to a recent college grad just starting their career who
Speaker 1: was interested in in either travel or points or even website.
Speaker 1: The biggest thing is, you know, first of all, treat
Speaker 1: your credit score like an asset. I was dumb in college.
Speaker 1: I didn't pay I didn't pay a Verizon bill. I
Speaker 1: moved down to my frat house. Three years later, I'm
Speaker 1: living in New York and it's two thousand dollars or
Speaker 1: docking my pay. It was like the biggest pain I've
Speaker 1: ever dealt with. So never stick your head in your
Speaker 1: sand with your finances, even if you can't handle it,
Speaker 1: there's so many ways, and even if you just pay
Speaker 1: the minimum to and then you know, but never mess
Speaker 1: up your credit score. It takes years. And then in
Speaker 1: terms of UH in general, I see. So you know,
Speaker 1: college grads, um, take the opportunity has given you. At work,
Speaker 1: I've I've even you know, most of my employees are millennials.
Speaker 1: Take the take the job that may not seem to
Speaker 1: you at the time to make a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: But when people give you an opportunity, jump on it. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I think the millennials always so worried about
Speaker 1: I don't want to get stuck in doing this for
Speaker 1: the rest of my life. Like, take this project, you're
Speaker 1: not going to you know, if you're a good employee,
Speaker 1: if you you bring a lot to the table, and
Speaker 1: if you're a team player, that's what's going to propel
Speaker 1: you more so than staying on this. Oh, I like
Speaker 1: this specific thing that I'm doing now, and I want to,
Speaker 1: you know, make yourself uncomfortable. That's how you become valuable
Speaker 1: for the company and they'll find the place to put
Speaker 1: you totally. And our final question, what do you know
Speaker 1: about the worlds of Points and travel today that you
Speaker 1: wish you knew ten or twenty years ago when you
Speaker 1: first started playing the Points game? You know, I learn
Speaker 1: every day. You know. Actually, when I launched it, I
Speaker 1: there were other and there so are other travel blockers
Speaker 1: who are way smarter than me in terms of the
Speaker 1: points and miles, and um, I think in general, um,
Speaker 1: it's not about being the smartest. I still learned stuff
Speaker 1: every single day from our community and emails. It's it's
Speaker 1: you know, we always peg ourselves as this going to
Speaker 1: be am I the best at this? Uh. I think
Speaker 1: in general points, I mean, and anything you learn, it's
Speaker 1: going to constantly evolve and change. So UM, I would
Speaker 1: just say this industry will keep changing. It's not over
Speaker 1: and it's been changing for time as well. So instead
Speaker 1: of uh, you know, just be optimistic in general about
Speaker 1: everything and go with the flow. Quite fascinating. We have
Speaker 1: been speaking with Brian Kelly, better known as the Points Guy.
Speaker 1: If you enjoy this conversation, well look up an Inch
Speaker 1: or Down an Inch on Apple iTunes, where you can
Speaker 1: see any of the three hundred previous such conversations we've
Speaker 1: had over the past five years. We love your comments,
Speaker 1: feedback and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net, Go to Apple iTunes, Please give
Speaker 1: us a review, share your thoughts with us. Check out
Speaker 1: my weekly column on Bloomberg dot com. Sign up for
Speaker 1: our daily reads at dalts dot com. I'm Barry Rihalts.
Speaker 1: You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio
Speaker 1: m