1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: today's best minds. 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 2: And AOC said, stop playing nice. 5 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: There has to be a political price to pay for 6 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: Elon Musk's takeover of the government. We have such a 7 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: great show for you today. Historian Thomas Zimmer stops by 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: to parse the inner workings of Trump and his Project 9 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five agenda. Then we'll talk to Harvard's Theta 10 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: Scotch Pole about the history of the right and how 11 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: we got here. 12 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: But first the news. 13 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 3: Somali so much, so much going on. Trump instituted these 14 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 3: tariffs on Mexico and Canada, and then some quote unquote 15 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 3: concessions were made that kind of aren't really concessions. What 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 3: are you seeing here? 17 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: So Trump was sort of almost about to get into 18 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: a trade war with Mexico and Canada. He put he 19 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: said it was going to tear off goods from them, 20 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: five percent tariff on all goods from Mexico and Canada. 21 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: Big excitement, would mean totally dismantling the North American Free 22 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: Trade Agreement, which again he had sort of redone in 23 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: his last administration. But Mexico and Canada called him on 24 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: the phone and asked him not to and then promise 25 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: they'd do things that they were already doing, like spending 26 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: more money on the border, which they were already doing, 27 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: and stopping the flow of fen at all, which they 28 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: were already doing. And Donald Trump decided not to teariff them, 29 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 1: though he is still doing a ten percent tariff on 30 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: goods from China, and that I think is still going, 31 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: which will actually make things more expensive as well. I 32 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: think that Trump knew, you know, on Monday, when he 33 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: said he was going to do the tariffs, the doubt 34 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: just sort of toppled and was down a lot. It 35 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: was down in pre trading, and he realized that tariffs 36 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: were going to really hurt the markets. And you'll remember 37 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: that Donald Trump still does love the equity markets. 38 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: He wants the dow to go up. 39 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: That's basically the one thing that is sort of the 40 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: check on this presidency. So once he made this deal, 41 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: but you know, it is the same deal the New Republic. Noted, 42 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: Mexico sent fifteen thousand troops the border in twenty nineteen 43 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: and sent ten thousand again in twenty twenty one. So 44 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: shine Baum basically agreed to do what she's just been doing. 45 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: But Trump is going to sell that as a victory 46 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: to his people, and as long as he feels he 47 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: can sell it to a victory, then he's happy with it. 48 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 4: Yeah. 49 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 3: I think it is a funny way to deal with 50 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 3: the toddlers, just say oh, yeah, sure, I'll do this 51 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 3: thing that I've already been doing already. 52 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: Well, that's what everybody's doing, and again, like that's what 53 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: the people, the CEO of Facebook is doing, That's what 54 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: all of these companies are doing. But it is also 55 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: partially they are obeying, right, I mean they're obeying or 56 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: they're making it look like they're obeying. 57 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 2: So what is like playing. 58 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: Along with him and what is enabled autocracy? I think 59 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: it's going to be a delicate dance there. 60 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, speaking of obeying, the FBI has turned over 61 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 3: details of five thousand employees who worked on the January 62 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 3: sixth case to Trump's Justice Department, and that's scary. 63 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: You know. 64 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: Look, Trump wants to purge the FBI of everyone who's 65 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: worked on a January sixth case. 66 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: That's like a lot of the FBI. 67 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: And I think that it's worth I think we talked 68 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: about this last time. But like, there are a lot 69 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: of people in the FBI who are white Republican men 70 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: who may have worked on a January sixth case. 71 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 4: But being nice, right all. 72 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: And you know it's a it's an agency head by Republicans, 73 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: staffed by Republicans, and now Trump is going to take 74 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: some of them out because they wandered into his case. 75 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: So the Deputy Attorney General Emil Bouvet in a Friday 76 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: memo he with a subject that said terminations. He's given 77 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: FBI officials to a noon deadline to submit the details 78 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: of who has worked on the January sixth investigations. It's 79 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: worth pointing out here that almost immediately the FBI filed 80 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: a lawsuit to prevent this, and so you know there's 81 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: a lot by the way, there's so much legal action 82 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: happening here, Like FBI is suing, a lot of these 83 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: federal employees are suing. There's just going to be a 84 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: ton of legal action. And rightly, so, look, Trump is 85 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: trying to break the law. The question is will he 86 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: listen to what the courts tell him. 87 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 3: All you law students graduate were worried about your jobs, 88 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 3: just head to DC right now. I promise. The foods 89 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 3: as bad as everyone told you, but you got a 90 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 3: job at least, so after I'm done making light of things. 91 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 3: One of the things the rich span on Earth likes 92 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 3: to do is late night agreeing with really, really questionably 93 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 3: bad tweets. And we have one here. 94 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: So Elon is up at night posting about white South Africans. 95 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: And I don't even think we need to go into 96 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: detail here except to point out that this guy white 97 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: South Africans. He's retweeting something white South Africans persecuted for 98 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: their race in their home country. You know, with Elon, 99 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: it's never about what's really happening. It's about lots of 100 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: other crazy stuff. And clearly he is not happy about 101 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: South Africa. I mean, I would unpack this, but it's 102 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: so unseemly I don't even want to. I think you 103 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: guys get the idea. He's late, late at night, he's tweeting, 104 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: and it does seem like he is perhaps not the 105 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: hero that we need right now. That's the understandment of 106 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: the year. Actually, that's the worst thing I've ever said. 107 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: Let's just say he's engaging in some late night racist tweets. 108 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 3: We use the term fever dreams sometimes for when people 109 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,239 Speaker 3: are saying something crazy, I'm thinking ketamine dreams here, ketamine dreams. 110 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: The point is, none of this is like sober, grown 111 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: up behavior. And he's running the federal government now, so 112 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: it's pretty bad. 113 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 2: Ye, not great. 114 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: He says he's shutting down USAID, and the Lever News 115 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 3: has an interesting story on why he might want to 116 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 3: do that. 117 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 1: Musk is targeting this agency that is inspecting his company's 118 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: Starlink equipment, right, and I want to point out that 119 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: in September, the agency's inspector general and worth remembering that 120 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: Trump has fired all the inspector generals. Remember that, so 121 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: you can see why Trump is not a fan of 122 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: inspector generals. Right, They're meant to root out corruption. He 123 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: told Congress that USAID's oversight of the Starlink satellite terminals 124 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: proved the Ukrainian government that USAID's efforts to protect against 125 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: sexual exploitation and abuse in Ukraine, and so USAID web 126 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: pages mentioning SpaceX and Starlink seemed to have disappeared from 127 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: the agency's website. I mean, USAID is this like large 128 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: government aid organization that goes into a lot of countries 129 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: that need help and sort of exercises this American soft power, 130 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: and you know, it's perhaps possible that Elon has run 131 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: a foul with them. Remember there was all sorts of 132 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: stuff with Starlink where he you know, he was accused 133 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: of turning it off at times when he wasn't supposed to. 134 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: And again we don't know if those accusations lead to anything. 135 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: But not great. 136 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: And then so this is a pretty interesting thing. I 137 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: would also add that there's just a little bit more here. 138 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: The other thing about USAID that I think is funny 139 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: is that and I saw this on Twitter, and I 140 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: thought it was really funny. Was you know, I come 141 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: from a lefty family, so I just always assumed and 142 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: I bet you thought this too, Jesse, that Usaid was 143 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: just like where the did stuff. 144 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 3: I knew that there was a little more time, but. 145 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: I thought, ever for Cia. 146 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 3: I figured this was like some real like Gladio coup 147 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 3: d'etas stuff that we like, just fun and stuff, or 148 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 3: we shut people up with some aid that we don't 149 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 3: want to rebel exactly. 150 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: It's so funny. 151 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: It's like we're in yet another moment where we just 152 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: the Republicans making us like things that we always thought 153 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: were a little bit sketch. Thomas Zimmer is a historian 154 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: at George Washington University and the author of the substack 155 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: Democracy Americana, Welcome Back, Too Fast Politics, George Shown Professor, 156 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: friend of the pod, very smart academic, Thomas Zimmer, thank. 157 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 4: You so much for having me. I honestly hope that 158 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 4: one of these days we will get to talk about 159 00:08:55,559 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 4: some pleasant things rather than a rapidly escalating constitutional crisis. 160 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, well let's talk about that. What's going on? 161 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 4: I mean, that's a good question, is it. I mean, look, 162 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 4: we are in the midst of a completely unconstitutional takeover 163 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 4: of central government institutions, resources functions. It's unfolding at at 164 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 4: dramatic pace. It's all based entirely on the regime's assertion 165 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 4: of absolute power and impunity. It's pretty I mean, even 166 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 4: for people who were probably expecting this to be very 167 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 4: different from twenty seventeen, more comprehensive, more aggressive. I believe 168 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 4: both you and me were in that camp, right, We 169 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 4: were both expecting this is not going to be like 170 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 4: twenty seventeen. It's not just going to be a rerun. 171 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 4: This is going to be worse but to me, the 172 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 4: speed and the aggressiveness with which this is unfolding is 173 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 4: still absolutely remarkable, and so yeah, to me, the best 174 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 4: way of thinking about this is, honestly, we're not looking 175 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 4: at maybe this is going to lead to a constitutional crisis. 176 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 4: We are in the midst of this. This is a 177 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 4: full on assault on constitutional government. This is in many ways, 178 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 4: this is a coup. I mean, we have right now 179 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 4: we have a private citizen who has absolutely zero constitutional 180 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 4: authority is occupying government agencies and departments and it's installing 181 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 4: his I don't even know what to call these people, 182 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 4: tech engineer goons who apparently are like young men in 183 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 4: their late teens or early twenties with zero relevant experience 184 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 4: installing these people across the government. This is outrageous. It's 185 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 4: absolutely outrageous, and it is very dangerous. 186 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 187 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: One of the things that I think has made everything 188 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:41,719 Speaker 1: move a lot faster is Doge because remember when we 189 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: started talking about Project twenty twenty five, Doge didn't exist 190 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: and Elon Musk was not on the scene. So they 191 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: had a plan to dismantle the federal government down to 192 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: the studs, which is happening right now. 193 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 2: But the Doge part of it, the. 194 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: Elon on going in there and sort of dismantling things 195 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: have hazardly like getting into the payment system. 196 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: That stuff is pretty new, right. 197 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 4: Yes, And I will also say this isn't just an 198 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 4: extension of Project twenty twenty five, right, So I think 199 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 4: it's really important to see a big part of what 200 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 4: is happening, and a big part of what makes this 201 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 4: different than twenty seventeen is Project twenty twenty five. All 202 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 4: the planning that went into this, all the executive orders 203 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 4: that were drafted and ready this time and we're not 204 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 4: in twenty seventeen. That's a big part of it, right. 205 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 4: So I'm not saying this isn't they're not enacting Project 206 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 4: twenty twenty five. But I think there's also on top 207 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 4: of that this sort of the tech right, the Silicon 208 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 4: Valley tech barons, kind of embodied by your musk, they're 209 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 4: also seizing on this, and they are also doing kind 210 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 4: of their own thing, and to some extent this alliance 211 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 4: with the vision of Project twenty twenty five. You said, 212 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 4: you know, Project twenty twenty fift is about dismantling certain 213 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 4: parts of the government, we should say, right, not all 214 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 4: of it, because they also want to use other parts 215 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 4: of the government, weaponize it, mobilize it to sort of 216 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 4: impose a certain vision of society onto America. And so 217 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,119 Speaker 4: mask is basically I think the assault on the constitutional 218 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 4: order is coming from different angles all at the same time. 219 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 4: If you think about, like, what are the different factions 220 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 4: that make up the Trump is right, there's different factions, right, 221 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 4: they're not all the same. There is the Project twenty 222 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 4: twenty five crew that's basically Heritage Foundation, reactionary leads, Christian 223 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 4: Nationalists does sort of camp. There is also sort of 224 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 4: the the Maga America first nativist scene that's like think 225 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 4: Stephen Miller, right, these kinds of people. There's a lot 226 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 4: of overlap between those two, but they're not the same, right, 227 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,599 Speaker 4: It's different factions. Then there is also sort of the 228 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 4: feudal tech lords like Elon Musk, Right, that's a different faction. Again, 229 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 4: they are aligning in a lot of ways, but they're 230 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 4: not all the same. And then there's like the Trump factor, 231 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 4: if you will, And I think what's happening right now. 232 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 4: A big question going into the Trump administration this time 233 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 4: was how are these different factions and they're not always 234 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 4: eye to eye. We saw this just a few weeks 235 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 4: ago when remember when Musk and Bannon had like a 236 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 4: shouting match and it was all about work visas, yes 237 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 4: or no? Right, is that a good thing or a 238 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 4: bad thing? And like the MAGA nativists were like, we 239 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 4: want to get rid of these work visas. We don't 240 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 4: want to bring these these brown people in. And then 241 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 4: like the masks of tech right, They're like, no, we 242 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 4: need those because we want the cheap labor to come in, right. 243 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 4: And so there is friction between these different factions. So 244 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 4: big question was how would they interact and like who 245 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 4: would get to do what they want to do and 246 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 4: who would have to take a step back. And I 247 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 4: think what we're seeing right now is no one is 248 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 4: taking a step back, and they're all just going all in. 249 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 4: This is a feeding frenzy. Like all of these different 250 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 4: MAGA factions have just been given the green light to 251 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 4: go ham on the constitutional order and they're all going 252 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 4: all in all at the same time. And I think 253 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 4: that is a lot of the dynamic that you're seeing 254 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 4: and of this complete escalation is because this is not 255 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 4: just Project twenty twenty five. It is also the feudal 256 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 4: tech lords and the mogernativists. They're all going all in 257 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 4: all at the same time, and it's basically because they've 258 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 4: been given the green light to just just go do 259 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 4: whatever you want. I don't think this is a sustainable 260 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 4: model of governance. At some point they will have to 261 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 4: sort of deal with the wreckage that they're creating here, 262 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 4: But for now, it is creating an enormous of destructive energy, 263 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 4: and I think that is what we're kind of seeing here. 264 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: Right. 265 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:30,239 Speaker 1: There's going to be enormous unintended consequences and some intended consequences. 266 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: But you can say what you will about all of 267 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: these conservative think tanks, the Heritage Foundation, these people, they 268 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: all have different peccadillos, different wants, different goals, but these 269 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: are goals that they've had for a long time, right. 270 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: I Mean, what I think is the most interesting when 271 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: you read through Project twenty twenty five is it's like 272 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: a wish list of things they've been trying to do forever, right, 273 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: Like taking back the Patama Canal that was a conservative 274 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: talking point from post Carter, right, like that none of 275 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: this stuff is new, and a lot of it has 276 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: been so they've been trying to do forever whereas Elon 277 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: was a Democrat, right, So what he is trying to. 278 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 2: Do is sort of a new idea. 279 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,239 Speaker 1: Now that said tech bros have wanted to end mainstream 280 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: media since they came on the scene, So that okay, 281 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: I mean in some ways it is like we're seeing 282 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: like the sort of typical Silicon Valley tropes intersecting with 283 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: the typical far right tropes. 284 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 4: Right, yeah, I think so. And I think the perception 285 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 4: of someone like Elo Musk and this whole st of 286 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 4: VC Silicon Valley tech class as kind of liberal ish 287 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 4: or libertarian ish that was always I think a misunderstanding. 288 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 4: I think it was a kind of mistaking technical progress 289 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 4: for progressive right. And it's kind of mistaking the fact 290 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 4: that these people are not Someone like Musk is not 291 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 4: socially conservative. He's not a religious conservative, right, and he 292 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 4: liked being close to power, and that included in like 293 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 4: say the nineties and early two thousands and Obama era, 294 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 4: that includes some democratic power. But you know, the second, 295 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 4: the second the government and whoever is in charge of 296 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 4: the government was sort of slightly more serious about actually 297 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 4: imposing any kind of regulation on these people. They're like, no, 298 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 4: wait a minute, that's actually not what we signed up for, right, 299 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 4: Because I think someone like Musk has always been entirely convinced, right, 300 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 4: entirely convinced that any kind of restriction for him is illegitimate, 301 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 4: because he truly believes, I mean, the guy is completely delusional. 302 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,359 Speaker 4: He truly believes that the very interest of humanity itself 303 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 4: aligns entirely with his personal ambition. Right, That's how these 304 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 4: guys look at the world. Hey, we are the sort 305 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 4: of creative, disruptive geniuses who will take humanity into the 306 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 4: better future. How dare you come up with, Like, I 307 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 4: don't know, any kind of regulation, any kind of HR requirements, 308 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 4: any kind of like. And I think that's also why 309 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 4: they're so angry at their own HR departments, Right, That's 310 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 4: what's going on here, Like they're looking at their own 311 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 4: HR departments. And as someone says, hey, Musk, listen, here's 312 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 4: the thing, Right, we cannot hire entirely like white boys 313 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 4: age nineteen to twenty three who all look the same. 314 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 4: We're going to have to do something about this, right, 315 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 4: And he thinks that's outrageous. He thinks that's absolutely outrageous. 316 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 4: This is sort of the grievance underlying all of this, 317 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 4: they really think, and this is why you have this 318 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 4: kind of pipeline from tech libertarian ish to far right 319 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 4: fascist right. There's kind of this. This is sort of 320 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 4: the peed Teal trajectory, this Elon Musk trajectory. So I 321 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 4: think it's a misunderstanding to ever think there was these 322 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 4: guys were liberals or they were sort of on board 323 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 4: with a liberal democratic order. They were not. They were 324 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 4: fine with sort of hanging out with Obama as long 325 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 4: as Obama was sort of inviting him to the White House. 326 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 2: That's soundst deferential. 327 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 4: Yes, that's exactly right, that's exactly right. But they are 328 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 4: completely convinced all the regulations need to go. 329 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 2: Right, which will be not great. 330 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: A lot of what's happening here is that people are 331 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: telling Elon that there are things that are bad, and 332 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: then he's attacking them. So USA it is a really 333 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: good example, right, This is huge federal agency that does 334 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: aid for countries that we have destroyed in earlier wars. 335 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 2: I mean, really like. 336 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: Not to put too fine a point on it, but 337 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: like they're in Vietnam, they're in you know, they're in Africa. 338 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: There are places that have been decimated by America in 339 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: previous wars, not just those countries, but there's certainly a 340 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: fair amount of that. And they do things like, you know, 341 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: help democracy, which again is like a bad word in 342 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: trump Land, but for obvious reasons, right, because it runs 343 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 1: contrary to what they want to do. But being rich 344 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: does not give you the constitutional authority to take away 345 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: federal agencies in the name of tax cuts. 346 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 2: So explain to me what you think is going on here. 347 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 4: I think they've just announced that they will shut down 348 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 4: quick which shut down USAID, which I mean, this is 349 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 4: a federal agency that was created in the early nineteen 350 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 4: sixties by an Act of Congress. Neither Musk nor Trump 351 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 4: himself has the authority to just abolish this or shut 352 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 4: this down. This is not how it's supposed to work. Again, 353 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 4: this is utterly and entirely unconstitutional. Right, there's no absolutely 354 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 4: no constitutional for it. Again, not just Musk. Also, Trump 355 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 4: cannot do this. This was established by an Act of 356 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 4: Congress I think in nineteen sixty one. And yes, I mean, 357 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 4: you're absolutely right. This is kind of a on the right, 358 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 4: there's this idea that USAAD specifically is kind of a 359 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 4: hotbed of like far leftist extremism, that this is a 360 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 4: way for leftists who remember, they truly believe are kind 361 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 4: of in charge of all these government institutions, agencies, that 362 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 4: this is sort of the way the left the conquerte left. 363 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 4: And it has nothing to do with a real existing left, 364 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 4: but the left. 365 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: Right, it's antifa, it's a van to say. 366 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 4: Sometimes they call it socialism, communism, Marxism is all the same. 367 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 4: They truly believe there is this vast conspiracy across the 368 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 4: American government and that these conspiratorial, radical leftist forces have 369 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 4: taken over all these institutions and now they're using them 370 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 4: to spread their dangerous ideas, and in the case of USAD, 371 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 4: they're spreading them across the world. Right, So this is Bunkers, right, 372 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 4: But they truly believe USAD is spreading like dangerous Marxist 373 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 4: transgenderism whatever across the planet. And I mean, it's completely bonkers. 374 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 4: And so now again this is why I'm saying we 375 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 4: are in the midst of a constitutional crisis because this 376 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 4: is so fundamentally unconstitutional. 377 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: But what we're careening towards is that just like with 378 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: the spending free is the OMB memo that was last 379 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: week's drama, right, was the OMB memo where they froze 380 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: all federal spending, something that again the Empowerment Act prevents. 381 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: The post Nixonian Anti Corruption Empowerment Act of nineteen seventy 382 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: four is meant to prevent. There was a stay on that, 383 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: so they're not allowed to do it, though who knows 384 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: if they're doing it. Now we have another situation where 385 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: undoubtedly a court is going to come in and tell 386 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: them they can't do it. See, I feel like we're 387 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: hurtling towards a constitutional crisis. But what happens when a 388 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: court says no, you can't do that, and they say 389 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: fuck you, which is where this is going. 390 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 4: So first of all, yes, that's absolutely where it's going. 391 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 4: I think when they announced they would end Berfright citizenship 392 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 4: also via executive order, also once again completely unconstitutional. The 393 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 4: president cannot just rewrite the Constitution via an executive order. 394 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 4: I think the playbook there was clearly more in line 395 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 4: with what they did with. If people remember the travel 396 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 4: ban or so called Muslim ban of twenty seventeen that 397 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 4: was also first stopped by the courts, given back to 398 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 4: the administration, they kind of changed around the wording whatever 399 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 4: it went back to the courts, courts stopped at a 400 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 4: second time, went back to Trump or you know, the 401 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 4: Trump administration, they changed it around again, and the third 402 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 4: time around the courts let it pass. Right. So, within 403 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 4: like six months or so this going back and forth 404 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 4: a little bit, they had theirs of travel ban, and 405 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 4: I was thinking, this is probably what they're going for. 406 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 4: They're going with sort of a maximalist kind of initial 407 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 4: he is our executive order. Court's going to stop it. 408 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 4: We're going back back and forth a little bit. Will 409 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 4: not get everything we want, but we'll get a version 410 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 4: of this. Right. This is I think with many of 411 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 4: the executive orders, how it's going to go. Now, where 412 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 4: I'm not entirely sure what's going to happen is what 413 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 4: are we doing about the fact that I mean, Musk 414 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 4: is literally occupying these federal agencies and departments. I mean 415 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 4: he's literally installed these people in the Treasury and there. 416 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 4: I'm not entirely sure. This is not like an executive 417 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 4: order where a court can say, hey, we're going to 418 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 4: stop this, right, here's your injunction stop it. Something else 419 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 4: will have to happen, something physical will have to happen. 420 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 4: Right with the fact that Elon Musk is now in 421 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 4: charge of the federal government's centralized financial and information system, 422 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 4: because that is a fact. I see this as different 423 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 4: than the O and b A memo where they said, hey, 424 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,479 Speaker 4: funding freeze, and then you know, but that's in and 425 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 4: of itself not a fact. Yet, that's sort of an 426 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 4: order right to the federal government. And then the courts 427 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 4: come in and say this order isn't valid. But there's 428 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 4: now a physical reality in which Elon Musk and his 429 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 4: goons have occupied these nerve centers of the federal government, 430 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 4: and something physical will have to happen there like they have, 431 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 4: they will have to be removed. Right. I think it's 432 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 4: an immensely dangerous situation because it's unprecedented, completely unprecedented. And 433 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 4: I also think it'd be great if we had an 434 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 4: opposition party that would know how to handle this in 435 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 4: some productive way rather than just say, Congress will have 436 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 4: to investigate. What do you mean investigate? There is evidently, 437 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 4: very clearly in front of our eyes some very clearly 438 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 4: unconstitutional legal stuff happening. Right. You can't just say Congress 439 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 4: will have to investigate, you have something more will have 440 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 4: to happen here well. 441 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 2: And then the other thing is if we want to 442 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 2: talk about. 443 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: This is like FBI, right, so Trump is a war 444 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 1: with the FBI. But a lot of these FBI agents 445 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: are trumpy people, right, Oh yeah, yeah, like white Republican. 446 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: It's been now led by Republicans forever and ever and ever. 447 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And. 448 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 1: A lot of these FBI agents were actually slow walking 449 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: their investigations of January six because they felt perhaps politically, 450 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: they had political feelings that, you know, they didn't think 451 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: it was so bad to support their guy. Those guys 452 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: are now going to at least theoretically possibly be fired. 453 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, that's what they're trying to do, right, 454 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 4: They're attempting this was all I mean, by the way, 455 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 4: this is all the past seventy two hours, so this 456 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 4: was all coming down Friday. You know, they're attempting to 457 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 4: purge the FBI by basically trying to fire or forts 458 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 4: to resign everyone even remotely involved in January sixth prosecutions, 459 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 4: which I mean that was one of the biggest things 460 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 4: the FBI ever had to do. So this is potentially 461 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 4: thousands of agents and higher officials. I've seen numbers fig 462 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,959 Speaker 4: The New York Times had numbers going all the way 463 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 4: up to like six thousand agents. That would be like 464 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 4: forty percent of the FBI personnel. It's crazy, and you're 465 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 4: absolutely right. I mean, this is if you fire six 466 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 4: thousand FBI agents, you probably have fired at least four 467 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 4: and a half thousand Trump voters. It's completely unclear where 468 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 4: this is supposed to go. I mean it's also I 469 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 4: think very clearly if you think about this stuff in 470 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 4: terms of state capacity and government capacity to actually do 471 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 4: its job right, because I mean the federal government. And 472 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 4: this is a lot of people are saying, oh, like, 473 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 4: this is like what Musk did with Twitter. Okay, fair enough, 474 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 4: but if Twitter breaks down, we don't have twitlter anymore. 475 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 4: But if the federal government breaks down, I mean, this 476 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 4: is something completely different. Right, There's millions of people who 477 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 4: depend in this country every day who depend on the 478 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 4: federal government doing its job right. Like I no funding 479 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 4: and whatever it may be, all these different functions. I 480 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 4: just don't know where any of this is going. You're 481 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 4: definitely right. We don't know yet. Nothing has reached the 482 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 4: Supreme Court yet, right, so this is going to be 483 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 4: a big, big thing. A lot of this stuff, like 484 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 4: right now, federal judges on the district level on the 485 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 4: circuit level, they are saying, look, no, you can't do this, 486 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 4: We're going to stop this. But that just means this 487 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 4: stuff will make its way up to the Supreme Court, 488 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 4: and then what happens. 489 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: Right, No, well, I mean I actually don't and I 490 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: think that's a real question. I'm not sure the Supreme 491 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: Court gives him the blind check he wants. 492 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 4: My expectation would be that John Roberts does not like this. Well, look, 493 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 4: he's on board with the general vision right of sort 494 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 4: of entrenching white Christian patriarchal dominance, but he doesn't want 495 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 4: to look bad doing it right. In his mind, he 496 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 4: wants to at least be able to uphold this idea 497 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 4: of being an institutionalist and all this kind of stuff. 498 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 4: So my working assumption is also that the Supreme Court 499 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 4: will stop the most outrageous kind of stuff, like, for instance, 500 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 4: as of right now, I don't think they would green 501 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 4: light them ending but afraid citizenship, they would probably say 502 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 4: you can't do this, but then also probably let through 503 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 4: and kind of you know, support a lot of the 504 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 4: other stuff they're doing. Right, so they might stop I 505 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 4: don't know, ten percent, twenty percent and let eighty percent through. 506 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 4: But I think overall that that still puts us squarely 507 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 4: in the territory of regime change. This is not like 508 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 4: what they're trying to do here is not an acting 509 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 4: different policy. They are an acting regime change. They are 510 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 4: completely fundamentally changing the rules of how power is being 511 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 4: wielded in this system, who gets the wield power, who 512 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 4: gets the control power. That is fundamentally changing as we speak. 513 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 4: And I think that will have lasting, lasting effects. Well 514 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 4: that's the goal, right, absolutely, Yes, regime change, that's the goal. 515 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 2: Yes, Thank you, Thomas Zimmer, Thank you so much. 516 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: Theda scotch Pole is a professor of government and sociology 517 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: at Harvard University and the author of russ Belt Union Blues. 518 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: While working class voters are turning away from the Democratic Party, 519 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: welcome back to fast politics, Theda. 520 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 5: Nice to be here, Amalie. If I can call you. 521 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 2: That, yes, please do. I'm so glad you're hearing you know. 522 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: I am not the only person who thinks of you 523 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: as this, but you're just an incredibly brilliant academic who 524 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: this is your area in a lot of ways. The 525 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: last I interviewed you was this summer. We talked about 526 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five and the sort of roots of it. 527 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: Now we are in the second Trump presidency, so give 528 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: me as much as you can sort of how we 529 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: got here. 530 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 5: We got here because of Trump, but we also got 531 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 5: here because the Republican Party has been radicalizing from a 532 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 5: buff and below for about twenty years. I don't think forever. 533 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 5: I'm not one of these people who thinks this is forever. 534 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 5: You know. Trump kind of synthesizes the desire of the 535 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 5: super rich to destroy government's ability to tax them, regulate them, 536 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 5: and open up opportunity and security for most Americans. And 537 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 5: at the same time, there's been a kind of movement 538 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 5: in and around the Republican Party from below that's angry 539 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 5: about immigration above all, but also the changes in gender 540 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 5: and race relations. And Trump put all that together into 541 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 5: one big ball of resentment and catering to the super rich. 542 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 5: And what's new now is that for round two there 543 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 5: are very carefully laid plans by a whole series of 544 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 5: elite groups around Donald Trump. He hasn't really changed. He 545 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 5: wants to watch TV, he wants Axians, and he wants 546 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 5: money for his family and friends. But the rest of 547 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 5: them are much more prepared to sort of destroy the 548 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 5: federal government. And of course it's all a link to 549 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 5: a minority, but an intensely feeling minority of Republicans and 550 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 5: maybe a majority of his supporters who want to bash immigrants. 551 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 5: And so we're getting that on TV. But meanwhile we're 552 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 5: getting an attempt to destroy the federal government's capacities. 553 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are really separate things here, right There is 554 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: a group of very rich people who want to unravel 555 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: the federal government, and that comes from a sort of 556 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: Koch Brothers ethos, a libertarian sort of rage at the 557 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: federal government. 558 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: It's the war on FDR and the Social Safety Net. 559 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: Talk to us more about sort of how this group 560 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: Discovery sort of came together with the racist group, even 561 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: though you know what I mean, the sort of the 562 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: very you know I call. 563 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 5: The methno nationalists, the grassroots yeap. It's not been a 564 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 5: single organization or a single conspiracy. I mean, I think 565 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 5: for many years leading into Trump one, the Coke network 566 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 5: where they organize multi billionaires around Charles and David was alive. 567 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 5: Then their project to sort of gut the federal government, 568 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 5: destroy unions. But we've now got another iteration of that 569 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 5: because once Trump got into power, you know, every rich 570 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 5: person on the right and now increasingly across the board 571 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 5: wants access to them because they want to be able 572 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 5: to pay them off in return for regulatory breaks and 573 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 5: tax cuts. They want access. And the latest round of this, 574 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 5: of course, is Elon Musk and the other tech bros. 575 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 5: And they're kind of an iteration beyond the Coke network 576 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 5: because they're the ultimate narcissistic business people who believe they 577 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 5: should rule the world and who have the communication means 578 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 5: to reach a lot of the alienated ethno nationalists who 579 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 5: are just angry. They think America has changed in ways 580 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 5: they can't control. They're fed a constant diet of lies. 581 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 5: I don't see why as an academic I should not 582 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 5: use the word that's correct. 583 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about another thing, because 584 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: when there was this murderer of this healthcare ceo, you know, 585 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: when Luigi Mangione murdered this healthcare executive, I would say 586 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: people did not want to condemn it. There was a 587 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: lot of people on the populist left and the populist 588 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: right who did not want to condemn it. 589 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 2: This in my mind, and again I'm no. 590 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: Academic, struck me as a very bad sign, right, because 591 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: murdering people is bad. Much of our social contract is 592 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: predicated on the idea that murder is bad. Here is 593 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: the celebration of a murder of someone who is a 594 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: very rich person. Now on the other side, we have 595 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: tech broke billionaires becoming celebrities trying to sell the American 596 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: people on cutting what little assistance they get from the 597 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: federal government. Does this make you think we're about to 598 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: hit a perfect storm, because that's what it makes me think. 599 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 5: Well, not sure what you mean by a perfect storm. 600 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 5: I think we're in a very big crisis, and part 601 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 5: of it is the breakdown of any kind of political 602 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 5: capacity to build faith in and use effectively government. And 603 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 5: you know that there have been problems with that, because 604 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 5: when you're dealing with a niilist right that wants to destroy, 605 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 5: it's easier to destroy than it is to sustain and use. 606 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 5: But I also think we have to recognize the big 607 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 5: changes in culture communications. The way Americans think about themselves 608 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 5: is a real unleashing of narcissistic anger and of demands 609 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 5: that's facilitated by social media, facilitated by a communications system 610 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 5: that rewards yelling and screaming and hatred. Really, it's all tilted, right, 611 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 5: But there are people across the spectrum and engage in it. 612 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 5: And I think a lot of the resentment of the 613 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 5: United Healthcare CEOs. You know that people are saying they 614 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 5: resent assurance companies. Okay, well that's fine. You can't deal 615 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 5: with that problem at all by killing an individual, right. 616 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: They have resentment towards the wealth amassed by a few. 617 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: So here are these wealthy people trying to get more 618 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: money from the federal government to pay for tax cuts, right, 619 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: I mean that's what this is. 620 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 5: Well, yeah, sure, no, they want to basically want to 621 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 5: raid the federal government. They do want people in the 622 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,719 Speaker 5: liberal states that tend to be net contributors of taxes. 623 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 5: Where I come from in Massachusetts, we send a lot 624 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 5: of money to the federal government and they want to 625 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 5: keep that, but they want to hand it out to 626 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 5: their friends, not to poor people in Mississippi or the Midwest. Now, 627 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 5: I would not attribute to most Americans resentment of great wealth. 628 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 5: I would call it ambivalence about great wealth. This is 629 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 5: a country where people want to get rich. We haven't changed. 630 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 5: And so part of Trump's formula has always been to 631 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 5: say I'm so rich. I can stand with you. I mean, 632 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 5: that's the formula for plutocratic populism anyway, but it has 633 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 5: a real side to it. And I think this must thing, 634 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 5: I think this must thing is going to cost him. 635 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 5: I don't. I think people are increasingly and by people, 636 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 5: I don't mean the hardcore maga, I mean the majority 637 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 5: that would determine things are increasingly seeing through this. But 638 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 5: it's still ambivalence. 639 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: You know, Musk's polling keeps going down for obvious reasons. 640 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the reasons why Trump has been 641 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: so allergic to cutting government spending is because it's not 642 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: very popular. 643 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 5: Can you talk about that, well, it definitely isn't. I 644 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 5: mean that Americans don't want things from government. I mean, 645 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 5: my first book about the nineteenth century was about that, 646 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 5: about how civil war pensions were the most generous disability 647 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 5: and old age pensions in the world at the time, 648 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 5: at the same time that we were talking about ourselves 649 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 5: as rugged individualists that don't need anything from government. I mean, 650 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 5: Trump has definitely understood that. Basically his core constituencies, at 651 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 5: least the geographic areas they come from. Our net takers 652 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 5: of all kinds. We're talking about social security, we're talking 653 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 5: about Medicare, we're talking about veterans benefits, we're talking about 654 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 5: disability payments, really disability payments, you name it. And that's 655 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 5: why this episode last week, this last week has been 656 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 5: so interesting. They put out a metalw no doubt Trump 657 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 5: and I Musk inspired that we're just going to freeze everything, 658 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 5: and then they suddenly begin to realize, well, wait a minute, 659 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 5: that means our people. So yeah, that's a big contradiction. 660 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 5: I interpret what's going on right now as the Republican 661 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 5: Party is trying to avoid having to vote on any 662 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,439 Speaker 5: of these things, and Trump doesn't want them to either. 663 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 5: He just wants to do things by fat and then 664 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 5: he will, like a beneficent king, he will reintroduce the 665 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 5: things that his people want. That's what he thinks. 666 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this as known nationalist crew. 667 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,399 Speaker 1: Pretty well, are these the same people as the Tea 668 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: Party movement? 669 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 5: Well, the Tea Party was the start of it in 670 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 5: Many well or the accelerator of it, and any living 671 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 5: Tea partiers now are over the top. MAGA. But there 672 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 5: are more more. Young men have been recruited, of course, 673 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 5: some women. It's never perfectly one way or another. The 674 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 5: Christian Conservatives, many of them remain very loyal to Trump 675 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 5: on no matter what, are willing to offer moral justifications 676 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 5: for the most heinous things. So he's got a pretty 677 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 5: durable core. But you know, it's not a majority. That's 678 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,399 Speaker 5: why I think people need to calm down a little 679 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 5: bit and recognize that the task of people who are 680 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 5: horrified by this betrayal of what America stands for, because 681 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 5: that's what it is, is really not popular with anything 682 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 5: like a majority of citizens. And so the thing is 683 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 5: to engage the disengaged and to give pope at heart 684 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 5: and tactics to those who want to slow this juggernaut 685 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 5: and begin to defeat it. In twenty twenty six, that's 686 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 5: the next opportunity. It may be the only opportunity. 687 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a really important point here, because we 688 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 1: know that midterms are state elections, and once we get 689 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: into federal elections, it's going to be a little bit different. 690 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 5: He stacked the DOJ with people who, unlike last time, 691 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 5: will overturn elections, and now I don't think Trump's going 692 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 5: to be running again. I think that's a red herring. 693 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 5: You know, these Republicans who will have to vote for 694 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 5: some things. They're trying to avoid it, but they're going 695 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 5: to have to because the dead limit is coming out. 696 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 5: They are on the ballot, a lot of them, and 697 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 5: so we should be holding their names, their feet to 698 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 5: the fire and spending a little less time chasing every 699 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:58,959 Speaker 5: Trump rabbit down every rabbit hole. 700 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 2: I think that's a really important point. 701 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: What are the things that you feel like are the 702 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: most important In my mind? I keep saying to myself, 703 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: like protecting norms and institutions, like the sort of fundamentals 704 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: of democracy, the free press. I mean, that's a teetering 705 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: on the brink. But what are the in your mind, 706 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: what are the sort of tent poles to keep us 707 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: in the free and fair elections world. 708 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 5: Well, those things are important, but you can't talk to 709 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 5: the majority of voters, including the more disengaged in those 710 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 5: who are not college credentialed, about that stuff. That is 711 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 5: not going to work. What you have to do instead 712 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 5: is say, hey, wait a minute, he promised the lower prices. 713 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 5: Are you paying less? What does it mean if our school, 714 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 5: including in many rural communities, has to fire a lot 715 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 5: of teachers because we aren't getting grants anymore. What does 716 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 5: it mean if the local hospital, and I would name 717 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 5: it is going to have to close a wing, or 718 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 5: is going to have to close down or is going 719 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 5: to have to close drug rehab. These are things that 720 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 5: are not just in urban America, but an exurban America 721 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 5: where the Trump crowd are powerful because the aim is 722 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 5: to pin the blame on a Congressman X who's voting 723 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 5: for that stuff or who isn't standing up against it. 724 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 5: And boy, there's plenty to work with. There really is. 725 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 5: And that's how the first resistance in twenty seventeen actually 726 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 5: made headway. They talked about the Affordable Care Act and 727 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 5: they saved it. 728 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's the thing. 729 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: It's like people are right now being like Democrats have 730 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: no plan, and the reality is they couldn't have a 731 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: plan until Trump started doing this stuff because there was 732 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 1: a moment between the election and the inauguration where and 733 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 1: this was his problem in the campaign. You couldn't make 734 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: people understand that Trump was going to do this stuff 735 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: because he hadn't the last time. 736 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, we have to look back over America and in 737 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 5: world history and realize that in the wake of major pandemics, 738 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 5: there's a powerful desire to forget to just block that 739 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,320 Speaker 5: time out. This is not a partisan thing if you 740 00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 5: go back and look at the flu up in them 741 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 5: at the end of World War One. It was written 742 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 5: out of American politics and culture because people yearned to 743 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 5: forget that which they were powerless to deal with. And 744 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 5: terrible disease is one of those things. So are terrible fires. 745 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 5: And so Trump benefited from that because he was able 746 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,919 Speaker 5: to say, oh, it was better before, and a lot 747 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 5: of people thought it was better before. And they also 748 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 5: thought he didn't do the things that everybody said he 749 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 5: was going to do. And you know, I think it's 750 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 5: too much to ask people to understand write down to 751 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 5: the details. Who he's got around them. Now they have 752 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 5: to see it. Unfortunately, I hope the scene isn't too late, 753 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 5: because we have seen this in other countries where it 754 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 5: starts out with an election and it ends up with 755 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 5: no ability of the opposition to contest anymore. 756 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: That's really scary and also really true. I'm thinking about 757 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: the De Cameron and like this plague literature stuff. 758 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 2: Was that true with the bubonic plague? 759 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 5: Well, you know, at the beginning of the pandemic, and 760 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 5: we had a faculty that met by zoom and read 761 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,720 Speaker 5: back all the way to the Babanic Pike. The scapegoating 762 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,320 Speaker 5: of ethnic groups, the desire to just forget it and resume. 763 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 5: This is very strong in these kinds of terrible global disasters. 764 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: Oh interesting, So what was the ethnic group that was 765 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:18,720 Speaker 1: scapegoated after the Black Plague? 766 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 5: Just Jews of course, right. 767 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: And in nineteen eighteen it was like immigrants and Italians 768 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: and Gypsies. 769 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 5: I'm not so sure, but Germans certainly. It happened during 770 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 5: a war. There was a strong sense even during it. 771 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 5: I mean President Wilson didn't even do anything. He kept 772 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 5: holding parades, but spread it. Remember this was one that 773 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 5: hit young adults, that killed zillions of young adults. There 774 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 5: was no vaccine, so, I mean, you would think we 775 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 5: would be so much better off. But this desire when 776 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 5: it's over for the survivors to say, we that's over, 777 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 5: We'll just go back to normal, and then to forget 778 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 5: who might be responsible for whatever happened during that's very strong. 779 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so interesting. 780 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: What sort of shook Americans out of that nineteen eighteen 781 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:08,399 Speaker 1: kind of. 782 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 5: Great depression and the New Deal? I mean, hopefully we 783 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 5: don't have to wait. I mean, look, I don't think 784 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 5: that's the core. That's an ingredient, and how Trump was 785 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 5: able to sell himself to the less attentive as better 786 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 5: than Biden. But those people will wake up soon. I 787 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 5: think they're already beginning to wake up. I think they're 788 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,879 Speaker 5: spreading disillusionment about the ties to Mosque and any kinds 789 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 5: of cuts which they have to cut a lot of 790 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 5: things that communities and people depend upon to pay the 791 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 5: bill for what they want to hand to the trillionaire class. 792 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 5: They just do. And so they will be doing these things. 793 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: And this is what you see in the Mosque versus 794 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: Bannon fight, right. 795 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 5: Yeah, to some degree, Bannon is of course back on 796 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 5: board because he thinks it's all working. But yeah, they 797 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 5: disagree about immigration. But look, we haven't talked about that. 798 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 5: I think immigration is theater. Notice that they aren't going 799 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,319 Speaker 5: into the states with the most undocumented immigrants, or where 800 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,840 Speaker 5: undocumented immigrants are crucial to the economy. They are construction 801 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 5: workers in Texas and Florida, they are agricultural workers in 802 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 5: many Trump areas. They're going into cities, and they're bringing 803 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,879 Speaker 5: along the cameras. This is meant to divide, which it does, 804 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 5: and to embarrass Democrats and Trump is watching it and 805 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 5: they'll keep doing it, and it's incredibly cruel, but it 806 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 5: is not really going to happen at anything like the 807 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 5: scale they're talking about. 808 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: So so so interesting. Thank you, thank you, thank you. 809 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: I hope you will come back. 810 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 2: Okay, well, keep at it. 811 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 5: We all have to. 812 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 1: They're no moment perfectly Jesse Cannon Molly. 813 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 3: One of the things I've always been told is Marco 814 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,320 Speaker 3: Rubio is a normal Republican. Oh no, little Marco, He's 815 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,320 Speaker 3: going to save us all with his sanity. Turns out 816 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 3: one second as a Trump official and we have absolutely psychotic. 817 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 1: Behavior, absolutely psychotic behavior. 818 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 2: Rubio floats dark. 819 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: Plan to deport US citizens to third country. Okay, it's 820 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: hard to parse who's the worst here. It seems to 821 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,919 Speaker 1: me like it's sort of disappointing that that Rubio has 822 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,359 Speaker 1: turned out. I mean, we always knew who was like this, 823 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: but there's Rubio. Then there's all this craziness with RFK 824 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: just came out of committee and he's probably going to 825 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:35,320 Speaker 1: get voted in TALSI. It's just a cavalcade of crazy. 826 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,240 Speaker 1: I talked to a reporter friend of mine who said, 827 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,799 Speaker 1: might as well have them get in the people he 828 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,200 Speaker 1: would pick the other people would pick would also be 829 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: crazy too. I don't know if that's true. We're seeing 830 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: a lot of Republicans just debase themselves for Trump, which 831 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 1: I guess is then why should today be any different 832 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: than any other day? Right? So, congratulations Republicans, you really 833 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: you know what, if we ever get out of this 834 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 1: Trump president, say, there will be no one left in 835 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: the Republican Party who has not just completely debased and 836 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:12,840 Speaker 1: destroyed themselves for Trump. Yep, that's it for this episode 837 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and 838 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 1: Saturday to hear the best minds and politics make sense 839 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast, please 840 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. 841 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:32,280 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.