1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome to Stuff 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. And it's Crampus Night, isn't it. That's right? 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: Today is or tonight rather is Crampus Knocked, the night 6 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: during which the Beast of Christmas comes down from the 7 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: mountains and terrorizes alpine towns around the world. Right, it's 8 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: so given that this episode falls on Crampus Knock, we 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: realized we had a solemn duty, a solemn holiday duty, 10 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: to explore Crampus in depth. Man, I think Crampus just 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: took a walk through our kitchen because I just went 12 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: through there and there was such a reek. There was 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: like a waft of aged shrimp all throughout the microwave area. 14 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: Does Crampus smell? You know? I would imagine you would 15 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: smell somewhat of sulfur and rot. Yeah, I mean one 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: would think or or certainly the hides would have a 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: daintness to them, right. Um. But but the smell was 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: often overlooked because generally it's more it's it's generally thought 19 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: of as more visual spectacle. Uh, certainly for those of 20 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: us far away from the Alpine regions that that either 21 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: have to make do with some facsimile of Crampus rights 22 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: in our own cities or simply have to make do 23 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: with with footage and images and illustrations of what these 24 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: rights consist of. Now, Crampus was really having a moment 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: like a couple of years ago. I think like the 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: suddenly interest in this creature surged, uh, And I feel 27 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: like it's it's calmed down enough now that we that 28 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: we can properly tackle it. Yeah, but I think the 29 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: good news is that I think it has calmed down 30 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: to like a steady infection of of Western civilization beyond 31 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: the Alpine regions. You know, certainly here in the United States, 32 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: like Crampus Uh has you know, sir urged infected the 33 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: holiday host And now I think we can say Crampus 34 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: is part of our our holiday traditions here in the 35 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: United States. Now, another thing is you said you were 36 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: going to be leaning into the holidays this year, and 37 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: man you have been. But what we we do promise 38 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: it's not going to be all Christmas stuff the rest 39 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: of the year. It was just that you saw that 40 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: it was coming out on Crampus knocked and we we 41 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: couldn't do but go to the horns exactly. So let's 42 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about Crampus, because some of 43 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: you may not actually be familiar with crampas or you 44 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: might not have you know, as you know, a robust 45 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: and understandings as other folks out there. So the short version, 46 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: of course, is that Crampus is an Alpine holiday monster 47 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: used as negative reinforcement, a threat of punishment for bad 48 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: behavior against children. He is the bad cop to St. 49 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: Nicholas's good cop. He is uh the stick, whereas St. 50 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: Nicholas is the carrot, though much more directly so than St. 51 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 1: Nicholas being the carrot, because the child doesn't actually want 52 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: to see St. Nicholas in their house that would perhaps 53 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: be traumatic. You want the treats and the goodies and 54 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: the presence that St. Nicholas brings, So the St. Nicholas 55 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: is like an indirect giver of the carrot. Crampus is 56 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: himself quite the stick, right and and but he is 57 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: something you wish to avoid. And that's the general idea. 58 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: The Crampus is what happens to the bad children. You, 59 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: young one, are not one of the bad children, are you. 60 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: Uh wait, so what exactly does Crampus do to the 61 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: bad children? Well? Uh so so it it very I mean, 62 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: the basic idea is that Crampus is going to come 63 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: and crampallow go and describe Crampus for everyone, though again 64 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: this is a situation where the exact incarnation of Crampas 65 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: is going to drift a little bit, and we're going 66 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: to discuss the wise of that in a bit a 67 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: little bit. Baffa metti, Yeah, a goat like beast man, 68 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: kind of a satyr, kind of a pan figure, kind 69 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: of a demon, like a furry, shaggy alpine demon from 70 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: the cold mountain wilderness comes down. Uh you know, he's 71 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: covered in bell's uh as a basket on it on 72 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: his back as switches may bring coal as well. Sometimes 73 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: it's shown to have like a big lolling uh you know, 74 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: giraffe like tongue. And basically he's going to come in 75 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: scare the bad children with the bad children with his switches, 76 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: and if you're particularly bad, throw you into his basket 77 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: and take you with him back to the wilderness to 78 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: either eat you out there maybe or maybe take you 79 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: to hell. Is is that sometimes part of it. Uh, yeah, 80 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: I think again, the exactly exact details are going to vary. 81 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: Sometimes I wonder if it's like, because clearly Crampus has coal, 82 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: perhaps he needs the children to work in the coal mine. 83 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: But that's just me. That's my my possible twist on it. 84 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: Now you're probably wondering, you know, where does this idea 85 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: come from. We know that it it definitely seems to 86 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: originate in the Alpine regions of Europe, but it's unsure 87 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: if it's truly a pre Christian pagan tradition. Um. Some 88 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: people say that it is, though it undoubtedly invokes pre 89 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: Christian pay and ideas and images, um, you know, regardless 90 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: of where it's actually or when it's actually emerging. But 91 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: at heart, he's a He's just a general bogey, right, 92 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: the embodiment of negative reinforcement of cultural norms in children. 93 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: And perhaps going back to our discussion of Jenny Green teeth, uh, 94 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: the bogey that is used to warn children away from 95 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: from still waters that are dangerous. Perhaps Crampus is an 96 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: embodiment of, you know, the general message that bad things 97 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: will happen to you if you do not take seriously 98 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: the rules and advice that your parents and your elders 99 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: present you with. So while yes, misbehaving will not actually 100 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: result in foul beastmen venturing down from the mountains and 101 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: dragging you away to some horrific fate, but misbehaving could 102 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: result in bodily harm, and certainly the potential for violent 103 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: mistreatment by others is you know, is possible in certain circumstances. 104 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: Either way, Crampus is an embodiment of fear in a 105 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: holiday that is often reduced to just a notion of 106 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: pure joy right, especially in the United States traditionally, But 107 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: his spirit is is certainly of the winter from which 108 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: our holiday traditions emerge. Uh, you know, he is the 109 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: the darkness of the holidays that is ultimately essential to 110 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: to winter um rights and winter belief systems that you 111 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: find in cultures around the world. Now, one thing that 112 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: I think is an interesting difference is that, like whether 113 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: or not there's really a St. Nicholas to bring you presents, 114 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: children will often end up with presents on Christmas Morning 115 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: with the implication that they have come from St. Nicholas, 116 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: but nobody ever actually gets carried off by Crampus. Yeah, 117 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: you know, you'll he's one of the big things here 118 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: is you have Crampus parades, traditional Crampus parades in alpine areas, 119 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: in which people dressed in the crampas costumes will parade 120 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: through the streets and um and scare children. Though certainly 121 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: nowadays they are not They're generally not permitted to touch 122 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: the children or to actually strike the children with sticks, 123 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: much less drag them away. Uh. But in previous decades, Uh, 124 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: you know, I imagine they perhaps had a little more leeway. Yeah, 125 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: I guess so. But either way, Yes, the idea is 126 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: that Crampus is a a performance. It is a is 127 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: a folk festival performance in which people dress up as 128 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: the monster and then the monsters parade through the streets. 129 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: And in this, you know, it touches on so many 130 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: other different folk traditions. There's something about Crampus that seems 131 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: to embody just like it just checks off so many 132 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: boxes for folk traditions, uh that you find throughout Europe 133 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: but also in around the world, you know, like the 134 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: making of bread totems that resemble Crampus, Crampus wearing the bells, 135 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: bells being objects that are typically used in folk decisions, 136 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: worn off evil spirits. Uh, Crampus as being a kind 137 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: of horned god as another thing that is often brought up, 138 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: you know, and of course there are many versions of 139 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: horned gods and horned beings and various religions and myth cycles, 140 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: uh you know, tied you know, particularly with the horned 141 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: god to the unpredictable nature of the hunt. Uh. So 142 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: he he really you know, stands uh, you know, on 143 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: this kind of nexus of so many different ideas, Like 144 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: it's easy to just go nuts chasing cramps through the 145 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: you know, through the centuries of of of human folk history. Well, 146 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: he's also just a classic hybrid monster. Yeah, yeah, I 147 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: mean that at heart he is kind of part part man, 148 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: part goat. I guess you'd say, part sheep, maybe part 149 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: you know, part beast, and in that like he ties 150 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: into some of our our oldest you know, magical ideas. 151 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: A hybridity is key to monstrosity. And what is thought 152 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: to be the first monster in the human imagination is 153 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 1: none other than the uh what the the low and 154 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: mench figuring from about thirty five to forty thousand years ago. Well, 155 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: the first that we have physical epiens. Because yeah, as 156 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: we talk about in our episode about the first monster. 157 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: You can't know what the first monster was, but this 158 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: seems to be like the earliest one where there's a 159 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: physical record of the monster. Yeah, and we did a 160 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 1: whole episode on that talking about like, you know, you 161 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: know certainly how this example was found and what experts 162 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: have thought about it, and how it ties into just 163 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: how how our minds work, like bringing two uh different 164 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: ideas together into a new idea, and what this new 165 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: idea encompasses totally. So what happens on Crampus Knocked, well, uh, 166 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: Crampus Knocked is the eve of the Feast of St. Nicholas. 167 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: It occurs every December five, and so Crampus descends from 168 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: the mountain, terrorizes with the children, drags the worst of 169 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: them away in that foul wicker basket covered in bells. 170 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes he he hands out coal or root and bundles 171 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: of sticks, which is interesting. The bundles of sticks are 172 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: sometimes also met musical instruments, of course, because they can 173 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: be used to it with a percussion instrument. Um. But 174 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: you know, this is the overall just a parade in 175 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: which there's this threat of greater beatings or abduction if 176 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: you do not behave yourselves and um. And this is 177 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: another thing, like the Crampus parade through the streets also 178 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: has this kind of unruly atmosphere to it that ties 179 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: in with a lot of parade traditions that involve masks 180 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, be steel guys is that people 181 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: take on and this you know, so again it runs 182 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: parallel to so many different things in human culture. Well, 183 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: it's one of the great ironies in the belief in 184 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: demons and devils that have haaunted us throughout the centuries, 185 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: which is that they are often used precisely to enforce 186 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: order like orderly behavior among children, and yet they are 187 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: themselves figures of chaos. It's like this unruly, unpredictable, wild 188 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: kind of thing will be there to punish you if 189 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: you break the rules. Why is that? I don't know 190 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: that that's interesting to me. Yeah, we'll certainly get into 191 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: the psychology of this more in the later portion of 192 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 1: the episode. Asked for the name Crampus comes from cramping, 193 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: which means claw in German, so which has a you know, 194 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: a nice nasty connotation to it, like this is the 195 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: claw the claw man. Um, let's see, goodness, where do 196 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: you even even go from there? So we talked about 197 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: crampas come, Crampas comes to town, Crampus parades through the streets, 198 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: or the Crampus, the cramp i, you know, multiple cramp 199 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: Crampus is some of these, especially these these modern Crampus parades. 200 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: You're talking like four hundred crampuses parading through the streets. 201 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: They're quite a festival. Sometimes there's fire, uh, you know. 202 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes the costumes are a little more modern, but other 203 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: times they put a strong emphasis on maintaining traditional originality. 204 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: Wooden masks, actual um, you know, goat and sheep skins, 205 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So they are the basic ideas that, okay, 206 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: Crampus either incorporates pagan ideas or emerges from pagan ideas, 207 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: or even is ultimately rooted in pre Christian pagan traditions. 208 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: But then St. Nicholas does come along rounds. This is 209 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: the solemn Catholic precursor to the sort of jolly modern 210 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: Santa Claus that most of us grew up with, and St. 211 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 1: Nick gained popularity among German speaking people during the eleventh century. Now, 212 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: the story of St. Nicholas is itself full of fascinating diversions, 213 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: Like there's a great story where St. Nicholas. I believe 214 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: he comes across a place where an evil innkeeper or 215 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: somebody like that has murdered some young boys, and then 216 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: then St. Nicholas murdered them, chopped them up and pickled them, 217 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: and then St. Nicholas resurrects the chopped up, pickled boys. Uh. 218 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: And I guess the innkeepers somehow punished, Yeah, and and 219 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: and St. Nicholas. Is this the rather different figure from 220 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: from modern Santa Claus? To him that he is, I mean, 221 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: he's essentially like a former bishop of of what is 222 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: now Turkey. I think so. Yeah, he's and he's this 223 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: dour individual. So he's not really jolly. I guess he's 224 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: jolly in comparison to the beast man Crampus, but he's 225 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: not quite Santa Claus, that's for sure. He's more like 226 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: a Christmas saw Uman kind of. I don't know. I 227 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: think he's yeah, yeah, I guess he has kind of 228 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: It's kind of. Yeah. Anyway, in the centuries to follow, 229 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: Crampus becomes an essential part of these traditions. You have 230 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: Crampus and you have St. Nick. Uh. Certainly you have 231 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: Crampus knocked ahead of the coming of St. Nicholas and uh, 232 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: and this just becomes, you know, just a popular part 233 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: of the holiday, and at times it actually gets a 234 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: little too popular for some people. So Crampus has always 235 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: been just as Crampus as this this darkness to the light, uh, 236 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: compared to the light of St. Nicholas. You know, Crampus 237 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: even today is I think sometimes seen as kind of 238 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: an enemy of craft Christmas. Well, you know, the same 239 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: way they say, like it's hard to make an anti 240 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: war movie because war is inherently thrilling. It might be 241 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: hard to make an anti Satan like demon character because 242 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: demon characters are inherently kind of fun to act out, 243 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: and so like, there's always the risk that people might 244 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: be having a little too much fun acting out their 245 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: Crampus roles, unless the Church might need to bring the 246 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: hammer down, that's right. So you know, the Catholic Church 247 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: attempted to ban these festivals in the seventeen and eighteenth centuries, 248 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: but they weren't able to do so. Uh. And then 249 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: before Nazi Germany's Night invasion of Austria, Catholic Austro fascist 250 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: briefly held power and is reported in a ninety five 251 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: New York Times article titled Crampas disliked in Fascist Austria. Uh. 252 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: They pointed out that that at the time, the people 253 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: in power saw Crampus as a demonic, unruly and potentially 254 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: communist usurper of Christian traditions. Yeah. So basically the Crampus, 255 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: according to this article, Crampus postcards and candies you know, 256 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: had always been popular. But but they had they had 257 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: become so popular that Crampus had virtually taken over from 258 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: Sander like he was he was becoming the gift giver 259 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: as well. Um So, at any rate, there was an 260 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: attempt to uh uh, you know, to to to oust Crampus, 261 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: to to you know, to say it was a communist 262 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: because ultimately in some depictions he was reading wearing red 263 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: I guess. But they ordered anyone in a Crampas costume 264 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: to be arrested on site. Festive Crampas dances were outlawed, 265 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: and they even required all Santa clauses as well to 266 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: be licensed by the state and monitored. Fascist ruin everything 267 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: now um uh. In modern times, of course, there have 268 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: also been concerns about the potential trauma of subjecting children 269 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: to the idea of Crampus, or certainly the reality of 270 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: frightening um grown people in crampas costumes breaking through the street. 271 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: According to a two thousand six reports from Reuter's, concerned 272 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: parents and one child psychologists spoke out against the demons 273 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: violent influence, as well as so called childhood crampus trauma, 274 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: of which there are only a few cases, but at 275 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: any rate enough for some individuals to to want to 276 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: sound the alarm. Uh And you know what what made 277 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: the situation particularly interesting was that while Santa ended up 278 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: being banned for visiting kindergartens in Vienna at the time, 279 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: Crampus apparently still had access to the children, and so 280 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: there was a certain amount of outrage over that. Well. 281 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: You know, so I'm of two minds about this. Of course, 282 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: I love Crampus. I love the demons and the monsters 283 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: and all that that. That's sort of my personal jam. 284 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: But I also am very naturally disposed against terrorizing children 285 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: with supernatural threats. Uh So, I mean, I would I 286 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: would propose making Crampus more of a Halloween style thing. 287 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: What what vampires and goblins are to Halloween, Crampus could 288 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: be to the Christmas season, you know, not something that 289 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: you are taught is literally an existent threat that will 290 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: hurt you, but just kind of like a fun trapping 291 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: of the season. Ah, you know, and this week kind 292 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: of referring back to our episode on cuteness and monsters. Right, Ultimately, 293 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: if you want to declaw the monster, if you want 294 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: to deflux declaw the Crampus, what you need to do 295 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: is make him funny and or cute, especially cute. The 296 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: cuter Crampus becomes the you know, the less terrifying he is. 297 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: But then how will we get the children to behave um? 298 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: And now I mentioned earlier about how you know, the 299 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: tradition of of of Crampus has spread over the world 300 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: and uh, and as such you'll see some crampas parades 301 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: where there's more of a Hollywood and horror of film 302 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: culture reflected. Uh. Certainly, if you just start looking at 303 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: Crampus images online, some of them are going to look 304 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: more like demon costumes that you might buy at a 305 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: Halloween superstore. And then you're gonna see things that are 306 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: that are far more traditional looking. Um. And I was 307 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: looking at one particular article. This is a New York 308 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: Times article titled he sees you when You're sleeping and 309 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: gives you nightmare my Melissa Eddie, this is about the 310 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: celebration of Crampus and Munich. And in this article I 311 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: point out that that in in this particular Munich Crampus parade, 312 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: they only allow really traditional crampuses. So this means wooden masks, horns, 313 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: goat and sheep pelts, bells and switches. Um and uh. 314 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: She writes that local crampus clubs there will spend between 315 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: eighteen hundred and euros upwards of three thousand dollars each 316 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: year on masks and costumes made from local materials. How 317 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: do you join a crampus club? Is that very exclusive? Um? 318 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: I get the impression it's kind of like joining a 319 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: crew with a k uh down in New Orleans, you know, 320 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: for various parades. You know, it's kind of like you 321 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: have clubs that get together and put put together. Uh, 322 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: you know these these particular costumes and performance. It's not 323 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: like a horned beast. Country club is not where crampus 324 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: is gathered to use the pool and place. I don't 325 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: think so, but she points out the master or in 326 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: this case car from lime, Swiss pine or alderwood, and 327 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 1: the skin are going to be sheep or goats. Quote. 328 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: Although no one turns away a cramps wearing wild board, 329 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: which is nice, and so four crampas is strong. They 330 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: take to the streets, but there are rules no drinking 331 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: and again no actual hitting the children. But crampus traditions 332 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: are going to vary as well, al right, and our 333 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: pointed out on Atlas Obscure back in that it's it's 334 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: not what crampas looks like, so much is what he 335 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: does or threatens to do that matters. For instance, entire 336 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: all the cramps tradition there is that crampus is essentially 337 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: wearing this big suit of straw. So the crampuses look 338 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: kind of like a hay bale with the you know, 339 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: beast legs, arms and head and um, and and that's 340 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,959 Speaker 1: just gonna be the way that cramps is depicted in 341 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: that particular area. And then you can you know, travel over. 342 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: For instance, there's a part of Bavaria where they don't 343 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: even have crampus. Instead it's a bouten Munden, which is 344 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: like a crampus figure. So um. The author here that 345 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: as Alice obscure Piece says, quote, like the tooth fairy, 346 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: he had a definite function but no definite form, which 347 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: I think it's a nice way of putting it. Now, 348 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: another thing that right and our points out is that 349 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: crampas traditions were ultimately, you know, traditionally a thing of 350 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: the country. They spread slowly and then eventually made their 351 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: way to the cities where illustrators there might have never 352 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: heard of such traditions before, so in depicting them, they 353 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: too might have had to rely on other demonic motifs, 354 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: such as devil motifs that were already you know, prevalent 355 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: in religious iconography, as well as pan and sader motifs 356 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: from art culture. So this would and then I would 357 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: imagine that this would end up influencing through the traditions 358 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: to some extent as well. So again it ultimately the 359 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: exact appearance of the creature is going to vary, but 360 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: it's the the intent that is that is almost pure 361 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: and its chaotic menace. I wonder what exactly it was 362 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: it caused the sudden international surge in crampus interest a 363 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: few years ago. Well, there's there's one possible answer to that. 364 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: I was treating an article in the Chicago Tribune from 365 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: from this year by Rick Cogan, and he points out 366 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: that the US explosion of Crampus might in part be 367 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: due to the two thousand four publication of The Devil 368 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 1: in Design the Crampus Postcards by Mont Beauchamp, an award 369 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: winning Chicago art director and graphic designer. So the idea 370 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: here is like this book came out, these images started 371 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: circulating around. UM. The images zo ended up being licensed 372 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: in some cases, or at least they were licensing request. 373 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: And this kind of sets off the online fascination with 374 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: Crampus and these Crampus images. You know, suddenly here's this 375 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: this new dark spin on the holidays. It starts appearing 376 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: in television shows. Uh what Venture Brothers I think was 377 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: one of the first things, first shows in which I 378 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: saw a depiction of Crampus, but I understand he's shown 379 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: up on like Supernatural was another one UM and eventually 380 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: had his own horror movie. I think that was in 381 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: the last couple of years. That was that. So my 382 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: dad's a big fan of it. This is like that. 383 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: That was probably the peat Crampus year, I think. So yeah, 384 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: would be like or something. Yeah, And of course, you know, 385 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: crap Crampus parades can now be found throughout the United States, 386 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: and there's one every year right here in Atlanta. That's 387 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: also it's sort of a more of a pub crawl 388 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, unless it's changed, uh, then like 389 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: a pure parade, like an actual license parade. But then 390 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: unsurprisingly you'll find parade crews in New Orleans that that 391 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: put on a Crampus parade every year through the streets 392 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: and then they finish up at a German restaurant there 393 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: in uh, in New Orleans. Okay, you Hollywood development people, 394 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: I've got an idea. I'm gonna pitch it to you 395 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: right now. Okay, it's a Miracle on thirty four Street, 396 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: but with Crampus instead of Santa Claus. So a little 397 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: girl be friends a goatman who thinks he who says 398 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: he's the real Crampus, and you don't know the whole 399 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: movie is either real Crampus or is he just a 400 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: regular goat man who thinks he's Crampas. I don't know. 401 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: I think, I mean, that's that's the thing. Americle on 402 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: thirty or four Street is a story about Santa and 403 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: a story about about letters and language, right uh. And 404 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: Crampus is basically unlanguaged, like there are no words with 405 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: Crampus there are no there are no prayers, there are 406 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: no letters to cramp just the unspoken implication get in 407 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: the basket. Yeah, he is just just just pure menace. 408 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: He's like Jason Jason befoorhees. Yeah, it doesn't need to speak, 409 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: you just his intentions are clear. Well, it goes back 410 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: to the lion man. It goes back to the basic 411 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: hybridity of monsters. Monsters don't have to say anything because 412 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: monsters are the message, right, their form speaks for them exactly. 413 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, Crampas doesn't have to say a thing. Crampus 414 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: is the message. All right. Well, for the rest of 415 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: the episode, we're going to be exploring the biology and 416 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: the psychology of of Crampus knocked. But before where we 417 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 1: do that, we probably need to take a break, right, Yes, 418 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: so we will be right back with more. 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Support the show, watch what 447 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 1: you want and protect yourself at express vpn dot com, 448 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: slash mind blown. Thank alright, we're back. So I admit 449 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: that was kind of an extended ramble in the first 450 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: part of the episode, but hopefully we were able to 451 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: get across some of the basic points of the Crampas traditions. 452 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: But it can be kind of difficult because again it's 453 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: it varies from place to place, from time to time. 454 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: Crampus is pure in his intent, in his just physical message, 455 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: but everything else is kind of up for grabs. You know. 456 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: I think it's time to play one of our favorite 457 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: games on the show, which is, let's take this monster 458 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: in a biologically literal way. Yes, uh, which is actually 459 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,719 Speaker 1: kind of difficult to again to do with Crampus because 460 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: the actual interpretation of him changes so much. But uh. 461 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: I will start by mentioning like two literary worlds that 462 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: come to mind that provide fun parallels to the Crampus idea. 463 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: So one is a book by Michael Crichton, the book 464 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: Eaters of the Dead. Have you read this? I actually haven't. 465 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: I went through a strong Michael Crichton phase when I 466 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: was younger, but never got to this one. I was 467 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: in all the techno thrillers, not this one. Yeah, this 468 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: one is the odd non techno thriller, but it's really good. 469 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 1: It's essentially a spin on Bayo Wolf. Instead of Grendel, 470 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: the singular monster, you have of the people known as 471 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,479 Speaker 1: the Windell, who are possible Neandertal descendants superiodically descend from 472 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: the mountain to raid vikings settlements. Uh so um, you know, 473 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: the clear inspiration for this again being Grendel who comes 474 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: down from the wilds and Bayowulf to assault the mead Hall. 475 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: Another literary parallel, it comes to mind the White Walkers 476 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: and George R. Martin's Song Lice and Fire Books, particularly uh, 477 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: the situation with Craster of Craster's Keep, who sacrifices his 478 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: male children to the White Walkers in order to sort 479 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,239 Speaker 1: of protect himself, to maintain like this weird alliance with 480 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: the forces of of wilderness and gold and death. Yeah. Yeah, 481 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: these uh, these demonic entities to live out in the 482 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: in the freezing woods, and they they and they represent 483 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: a threat to human children. Right, So, playing with these 484 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: extrapolations of monsters from the winter wild, we might arrive 485 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: at a view of Crampus as a as as a 486 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: people who come down from the mountains to raid the 487 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: civilizations of man, but who might be bought off through 488 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: an offering of our worst human children, which they presumably 489 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: eat or yeah, or maybe put to work in the 490 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: coal mines. Um. As far as I can tell, this 491 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 1: would be you know, a pretty unique arrangement. Uh, in 492 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: part because outside of our myths and fictions, there are 493 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: no beast men. There are no inhuman others to deal 494 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: with in this manner. Uh. Though tantalizing lee enough, we 495 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: are dealing with Europe here, a place where humans end 496 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: any and Neanderthals seem to have coexisted for a number 497 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: of years. Um, And I was looking around. I was wondering, like, 498 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: surely somebody has has written about the possibility of cramps 499 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: having something to do with the anderw Toals, but but 500 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: nobody else has made that, uh gone out on that 501 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: that that limb, that's just me on that limb. But 502 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: at any rate, as we discussed in our recent cannibalism episode, 503 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: there there is clear evidence that both Neandertals and prehistoric 504 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: humans engaged in cannibalism, but there's nothing solid to suggest 505 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: that they really ate each other, though child sacrifice itself 506 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: can be found throughout cultures of the ancient Near East, 507 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: pre Columbian America's, pre modern Europe, parts of Africa, etcetera. So, so, 508 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: you know, this is just me spitballing here, But but 509 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: I don't don't think there's anything unbelievable about the idea 510 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: of humans offering up their worst children to a species 511 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: of mountain creatures, um as the you know, cold demands 512 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: of winter set in. In fact, you know, when you 513 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: think about one of the predecessors to Christmas was Roman Saturnalia, 514 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: which involved a great deal of public ruckus and sacrifices, 515 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: though apparently not of the human variety, or so we're told. Yes, Now, 516 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: as far as thinking about crampus creatures biologically, I mean 517 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: we we simply, you know, we could imagine them as 518 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: a cold weather adapted to Hamad species, uh, you know 519 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: what with all the fur and and again, it is 520 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: interesting to think about the fact that Neanderthals may have 521 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: been essentially that species adapted too cold the cold weather 522 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: the ice ages, though interpretations vary on that as well. 523 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: For instance, there's even one theory that states that Neanderdal's 524 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: might actually have been killed out by a cold dry 525 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: spell spanning centuries during the period of their decline. But 526 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: also when we can think about the fur and the 527 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: horns of the crampas, we can interpret that as clothing 528 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: and ritual garb, just like human beings might wear and 529 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: certainly do wear when they dress up as cramp as 530 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: in the streets. But we could also imagine some horned 531 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: humanoid as well. We have countless examples of such creatures 532 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: and beings and global myths, and even cases of humans 533 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: in the past with horn like growths, but nothing on 534 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: the level of a horned biped mammalian species. Now, as 535 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: for that tongue, I'm always intrigued by, especially some of 536 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: these cramp as illustrations in which the tongue is actually 537 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: wrapping around is screaming child. The closest analog you can 538 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: really find in nature is probably the eighteen to twenty 539 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: inch centimeter prehensile giraft. That's a good tongue. Yeah, if 540 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: you certainly you've got to see a giraffe at the zoo, 541 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: you've or certainly in the wild, if you've been so lucky, 542 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: then hopefully you've you've you've seen the way that tongue 543 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: can wrap itself around vegetation and then you know, pull 544 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: it free. It's like a snake coming out of the mouth. Yeah, 545 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,959 Speaker 1: so that would be a possibility for our imagined Cramps creature. 546 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: But then that would again come to down to what's 547 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: the function of this tongue. Does that mean that Crampus 548 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: actually depends, you know, primarily on vegetation, and why would 549 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: he have the tongue and hands as well? Like that 550 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: seems like the physical form would be over investing in 551 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: vegetation manipulation unless he has to eat all those leaves 552 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: while scooping up screaming children, in which case I don't know. 553 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's interesting. Or another way you could look 554 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: at it is, what if Crampus is not in fact 555 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: by people? Crampus could be a four like a critter, 556 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: right Yeah, perhaps perhaps is mostly going out on four legs, 557 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: but rat rises up on two legs when when wanting 558 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: to display a threat, right to make himself look bigger, 559 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: right right? Um? However, the I do have to say 560 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: that the idea of Cramps being a vegetarian, of course, 561 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: that that would play in well with what we know 562 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: of other like bovine creatures, and certainly uh, giraffe and 563 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: the and the related creatures like these are these are 564 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: herbivores so primarily so, so you know, those would be 565 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: the main parallels to some sort of a goat man 566 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: I imagine. But then again, if you go back in 567 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: the fossil record, you'll you'll find things like Andrew Sarkis, 568 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: which some paleontologers interprets a clothing hoofed carnivore. So you know, 569 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: I think there's hope there that you could have. You 570 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: could there, you could theoretically have some sort of a 571 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: hoofed goat creature that feasts sun flesh. Nice, But there's 572 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: already that stereotype that goats will lead anything, right, you 573 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: feed him a tin can and and the leader. I 574 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: don't know to what extent that's true. I'm sure you 575 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: shouldn't do Yeah, I certainly you should not. But but 576 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: you know, if you're like a petting zoo, certainly goats 577 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: are curious and they will they'll nibble on a lot 578 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: of different things. Um, it could be kind of a 579 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: squirrel situation here, the thing that uh that primarily eats vegetation. 580 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: But uh, you know, who knows what they'll dip into 581 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: given the opportunity. So to come back to the question, 582 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: could crampus exist, Yeah, I think theoretically, like there's nothing 583 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: you know, completely unrealistic about the idea. So um, you know, 584 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: you're sort of getting into like the plausibility of sasquatch 585 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: things like a large, hairy, bipedal creatures, uh, you know, 586 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: may dwell outside the bounds of human civilization. Now here's 587 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: an interesting question though, which is more real crampus who 588 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: no one is claiming to have seen in the wilds 589 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,959 Speaker 1: or sasquatch in which people do make that claim and 590 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: and do devote their lives to the idea that it 591 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: really exists. Like one is extremely real in the in 592 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: the imagination, in human traditions, and the other is has 593 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: this cryptozoological standing for the most part, with with some 594 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: creep into you know, the cultural area as well well. Obviously, 595 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,399 Speaker 1: I mean I'm pretty skeptical of of both. But I mean, 596 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: if you had to rule one is more plausible than 597 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: the other, obviously it would be it would be the squatch, right, 598 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: because the squatch is oriented toward plausibility. And not to 599 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: read too much into people's intentions, but you almost get 600 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: the sense that some of the reports are kind of 601 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: crafted in order to make it seem like a more 602 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: biologically plausible thing, right, Uh, and not just like a 603 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: fantasy monster. And then I saw in the woods, and 604 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: then ultimately, ultimately cramp is a celebration of a fantasy 605 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: monster that is a part of holiday traditions. You know, 606 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: the fantasy monsters are better. They carry baskets and sasquatch 607 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: does not. That's right. Yeah, So all this talk of 608 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: Crampus has got me wondering. So you've got to St. 609 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: Nicholas on one hand, the big bag full of toys 610 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: for all the good boys and girls, and then you 611 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: got Crampus, who has got the whip or the switch 612 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: the basket to carry the bad children off somewhere wretched. 613 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,879 Speaker 1: I was wondering which idea is actually more effective at 614 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: motivating good behavior? Uh? And I want to be clear, 615 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 1: We're certainly not encouraging you to terrorize your children with 616 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 1: threats of monsters and other supernatural punishments. But I am 617 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: curious just in the abstract, which is more motivating to 618 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: two people in general and to children the promise of 619 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: rewards like toys or the threat of punishment is that 620 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: toys or horns? Yeah, this is This is one of 621 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: those big questions that I think every parent struggles with, uh, 622 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: you know, trying to figure out, you know, to what 623 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: extent should we keep it positive positive reinforcement? Uh, and 624 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: to what extent do you actually dip into the negative? 625 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: And you know, ultimately you generally don't want to dip 626 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: into the negative reinforcement. You don't we certainly don't want 627 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: to invent imaginary horrors to scare children. But on the 628 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: other hand, it comes back to the reality of the 629 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: Jenny Green teeth that there are real pressing threats to 630 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: a child's life in their immediate vicinity, and you want 631 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: to get the message across. Uh. You know, you don't 632 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: want to think about, uh, your child getting hit by 633 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: a car, for instance, by wandering into the street, but 634 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: you want to you want to drive home the message 635 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: that this could happen and so you should certainly not 636 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 1: do this thing. Well, right, I mean, it's totally different question. 637 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: I think once you get into the area of like 638 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: clear life threatening types of things. I mean, I think 639 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: the things people deal with on a more often day 640 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: to day basis, or just like how do you regulate behavior. 641 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: How do you get the child to to not, you know, 642 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: behave in a like obnoxious selfish way, uh, toward other children, 643 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: toward teachers and parents and all that. So I'm asking 644 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: the question in a general way here. We'll try to 645 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: give a general answer if I can, But obviously this 646 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: is going to depend on a lot of individual circumstances, 647 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,280 Speaker 1: both of the people being motivated, the situation they're in, 648 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: the types of rewards and punishments on offer. And given 649 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: that reality, you probably won't be surprised to find that 650 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: the evidence here is somewhat mixed and confusing about whether 651 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 1: rewards or punishments are more effective. It depends a lot, 652 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 1: but I'll try to flesh it out a little bit. 653 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: So one thing that's important to remember is the difference 654 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: between positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, and punishment, which are three 655 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: distinct categories in psychology. Though the terms negative reinforcement and 656 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: punishment are sometimes used interchangeably, they do have subtle differences. 657 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: So positive reinforcement is when an action is encouraged with 658 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: a reward. So imagine you're designing a car that encourages 659 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: people to wear their seat belts. For positive reinforcement, every 660 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: time you put on your seat belt, maybe the car 661 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: gives you a candy, or it displays a little thing 662 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: that says good job. For negative reinforcement, you have to 663 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: imagine that the car does what many cars actually already do. 664 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: It makes an annoying sound or keeps beeping until hill 665 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: you put your seat belt on. So for negative reinforcement, 666 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: what this actually means is there's an existing negative stimulus, 667 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: which is the sound of the negative reinforcer, and you 668 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 1: can only make the negative reinforcer go away by doing 669 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: the desired action of putting on the seat belt. Punishment 670 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: is similar but slightly different. Instead of presenting a bad 671 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: effect and then removing it when you do something good, 672 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: it threatens you with subsequent bad effects if you do 673 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: something bad. So punishment would be more like your car 674 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: automatically writing you a ticket every time you drive somewhere 675 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: without your seat belt. Uh, And so negative reinforcement is 676 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: something that's already painful or unwanted, and you have to 677 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: do something right to make it stop. Punishment is something 678 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: bad that will happen to you if you do something wrong. 679 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: And then even within that, I think technically there's both 680 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: like positive punishment and negative punishment. Positive punishment would be 681 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: doing something you don't like, like the car shocking you 682 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,760 Speaker 1: after you drive somewhere with without a seat belt. Negative 683 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: punishment would involve like taking away a benefit as a punishment, 684 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: so like if the car automatically disabled its air conditioning 685 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 1: after you drove without your seat belt. So which one 686 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,720 Speaker 1: of these is cramp us? Uh? Crampus kind of shows 687 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 1: the way that some of the categories do have some overlap, 688 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: they kind of bleed together. I suppose it is in 689 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: one sense a threat of positive punishment, like this monster 690 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: will be coming to possibly whip you, But it's also 691 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: a bit of negative reinforcement, maybe because like maybe helping 692 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: mom and dad do the chores could do something to 693 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: alleviate the negative reinforcer, which is the nagging fear of 694 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: crampus that haunts your mind. Yeah, I think that's that's fair. Again, 695 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: there there's a an amorphous aspect to crampus, so it 696 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: would be it would be too much to expect him 697 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: to fit firmly in any kind of category. Well, but 698 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: it's not just crampus. Also, it's like tons of things, 699 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: like it's difficult to know exactly like where they fit 700 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: on the skip because you can frame them in different ways, 701 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: Like you can frame doing the exact same thing as 702 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: like an inhibition or a positive behavior, like are you 703 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 1: remembering to turn the lights off when you leave the 704 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: room a positive behavior? Or are you not leaving the 705 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 1: lights on when you leave the room. I mean, it's 706 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: sort of like hard to tell which is which in 707 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: some cases. Um, but so so to look at some studies, 708 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: there was one study from the nineteen seventies that came 709 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,479 Speaker 1: across by Arthur F. Constantini and Kenneth the Hoving called 710 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: the Effectiveness of reward and punishment contingencies on Response inhibition, 711 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: and this was in the Journal of Child Psychology nineteen 712 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: seventy three, and so this looked at the relative strength 713 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: of rewards and punishments in in motivating behavior. It involved 714 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: training two groups of forty kindergarteners and forty second graders 715 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: in something called response inhibition training. This is training that 716 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,839 Speaker 1: teaches children to suppress actions that are inappropriate for the context. 717 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: Their quote from the paper is, this is uh the 718 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 1: tendency to inhibit irrelevant acts and to select appropriate ones. 719 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: So basically it's self control, like in a laboratory context. 720 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: This kind of training might take the form of anything 721 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 1: from the marshmallow test, like getting kids to resist eating 722 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: a treat on the promise that a better treat is 723 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: coming later, to something called the Stroop test, which involves 724 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 1: showing people the name of a color printed in a 725 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 1: different color, and then they have to say the color 726 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: that the word is printed in. So, for example, you'd 727 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,439 Speaker 1: see the word red printed in green, and you would 728 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: have to say green instead of red. And this is 729 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: taken as a suppressing activity, but because it requires the 730 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 1: suppression of the dominant response behavior, which is to simply 731 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: read the word you're seeing. But there are all kinds 732 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:52,800 Speaker 1: of analogies for response inhibition training in the behavioral education 733 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 1: of children. If you're trying to train a child not 734 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: to grab things out of other people's hands or not 735 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: to wine when they want something, that's a form of 736 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: response inhibition training. Anyway. The short version is that this 737 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: study found that for this particular type of training, children 738 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: at both age groups learned the response inhibition on the 739 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: given task more efficiently when they were threatened with punishment 740 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: than when they were promised rewards. Though I should know, 741 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: because it's probably relevant what the punishments and rewards consisted 742 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: of Basically, children were shown an assortment of toys and 743 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: told that their performance on these training tasks would determine 744 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: a payout of marbles, which they could then use to 745 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: purchase the toys that they had been shown. So, in 746 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: the reward condition, good performance on the task was were 747 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: rewarded with the accumulation of marbles. You do good and 748 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: you get more marbles. In the punishment condition, you had 749 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: some marbles, and bad performance on the task was punished 750 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: with the removal of marble's awarded at the beginning. So basically, 751 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: the rewards and the punishments here both had to do 752 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 1: with toy buying power. And granted, toy buying power is 753 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: an immensely powerful force, and in the child's mind, oh, 754 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: I remember it. I remember that power. Uh. And and 755 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: so the author's right quote. The motivational effect of losing 756 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: marbles is apparently greater than receiving them, even when the 757 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: actual number retained by or given to the subjects is 758 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 1: the same under both conditions. Uh. Now note here that 759 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: the punishment, even though it is incredibly motivating to have 760 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: toy buying power, the punishment here is not an intrinsically 761 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: painful effect, but rather the withdrawal of previously awarded positive reinforcers. 762 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: And this probably has very important differences from a demon 763 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: with a whip. Yeah, this this would have more just 764 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: in common with sort of the crampest free idea that 765 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: Santa will either bring you the toys you want, less 766 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: toys or no toys based on your behavior exactly. So 767 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,359 Speaker 1: this is just one study from the seventies, and I 768 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,880 Speaker 1: was reading more recent opinions of scholars and child psychologists, 769 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: and the picture continue used to get more complicated from there. 770 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: So another thing I was looking at was a column 771 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: in Psychology Today by a pretty well known American child 772 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: psychologist named j. Belski, who had actually been the subject 773 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: of some kind of controversy after he published research that 774 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,760 Speaker 1: seemed to show some mildly negative behavioral outcomes for children 775 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: who had spent a lot of time in daycare. I 776 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: don't know enough about him or his research to have 777 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:23,959 Speaker 1: an opinion on that issue, but I thought I should 778 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 1: flag it since I saw something about it. But anyway, 779 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: Bellski argues here that rewards are generally more effective than 780 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: punishment at teaching good behavior, especially for young children. Uh. 781 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 1: And specifically he gives the example of rewarding good behavior 782 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: but simply ignoring bad behavior, and he writes that you know, 783 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 1: a lot of parents are are kind of intuitively averse 784 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: to this, like they would think, you know, why would 785 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: ignoring bad behavior be better than meeting out punishment when 786 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: a child does wrong? And Bellski calls attention to the 787 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: work of a of Dutch neuroscientists who study the effects 788 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,399 Speaker 1: of simple rewards and punishments, and these are about as 789 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: mild as you can get for rewards and punishments. Basically, 790 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: it was children ages eight to nine and children ages 791 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,040 Speaker 1: eleven to twelve, and they were trained to do a 792 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: computer task in which they had to discover and follow 793 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,800 Speaker 1: some rules, and the inferring and following of the rules 794 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: could be reinforced either by rewards, which would consist of 795 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,759 Speaker 1: a check mark when they got the right answer, or 796 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,760 Speaker 1: punishments a big X when they got the wrong answer. 797 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,439 Speaker 1: And the study found that the younger children improved more 798 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: when the feedback was positive, whereas the older children improved 799 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: more when the feedback was negative. Young adults eighteen to 800 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: twenty five also responded more to negative feedback in a 801 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:47,360 Speaker 1: similar test, and The neuroscientists who carried out this research 802 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: had the children undergo brain scans while while learning through 803 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 1: these tasks, and the brain imaging work showed differences between 804 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: the brains of the younger children and the older children 805 00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: while doing the computer task. The areas of the Surrey 806 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: real cortex associated with cognitive control, which is related to 807 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 1: the self control and the response inhibition we were just 808 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 1: talking about. In these areas, older children showed stronger activation 809 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: in response to negative feedback and younger children showed stronger 810 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,320 Speaker 1: activation in response to positive feedback. So what could fully 811 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 1: account for the difference here, like why would younger children 812 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 1: learn faster from minor rewards and older children and young 813 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: adults learn faster from minor punishments. Belski offers an explanation 814 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: that's in line with the authors of the study quote, 815 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: information which stipulates that you did something wrong, is more 816 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 1: complicated than information stipulating that you did something well. So 817 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 1: younger children may simply have an easier time processing simpler, 818 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:53,480 Speaker 1: positive rewarding information than negative feedback. As the authors noted, 819 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,120 Speaker 1: learning from mistakes is more complex than carrying on in 820 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: the same way as before. You have to ask yourself 821 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,359 Speaker 1: precisely what went wrong and how it was possible. That is, 822 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,400 Speaker 1: it takes more analysis to figure out that what was 823 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: done is mistaken than that it is correct. So if 824 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: you think about it, I think that makes sense. Positive 825 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,880 Speaker 1: reinforcements and rewards are actually often so simple as to 826 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 1: be nearly mechanical, Like, whatever you just did that was good, 827 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: keep doing that, do more of it. Punishments let you 828 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 1: know that you're screwing up, but they don't necessarily tell 829 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: you what you should be doing. Instead, they don't necessarily 830 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: model a positive behavior, so they can be confusing, frustrating, 831 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,759 Speaker 1: de motivating. Uh. And so it seems that for pre 832 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:41,359 Speaker 1: adolescent children, modeling and rewarding positive behavior is probably more 833 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 1: effective than punishing bad behavior, since it's easier for them 834 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,560 Speaker 1: to understand and repeat. So, of course, an an important 835 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,319 Speaker 1: note of difference here the difference between the effects of 836 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,680 Speaker 1: like simple mild rewards and punishments that you get in 837 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,719 Speaker 1: real time during an experiment, versus the effects of the 838 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,880 Speaker 1: promise of rewards and the threat of like terrifying punishments 839 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 1: extended far into the future. Like Obviously, it's one thing 840 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 1: to test the difference between more toys and less toys 841 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 1: right now or checks and x's right now versus the 842 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,640 Speaker 1: you know, the difference between awesome toys and monstrous doom 843 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 1: many months down the road. And I I wasn't able 844 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,320 Speaker 1: to come across anything that was able to really model 845 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,320 Speaker 1: like the threats of punishment and promises of rewards exactly 846 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,840 Speaker 1: as they're presented to children around these kind of Christmas ideas. 847 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 1: But I have to imagine the like time delay plays 848 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 1: a big role there, right, You've got to get very 849 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,640 Speaker 1: different effects when you're talking about rewards and punishments that 850 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:43,879 Speaker 1: are long off in the future versus immediately apparent. Yeah, 851 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 1: I mean, especially when you're talking about Christmas, because we 852 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 1: all have I think has experience. When you're when you're 853 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: an adult, December just flies by like any month. But 854 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,480 Speaker 1: when you're when you're a child, Um, you know, the 855 00:48:55,520 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 1: holiday time passes an entirely different way. Yeah, you know this, 856 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:05,280 Speaker 1: the span of time between between December one and December 857 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,520 Speaker 1: it seems immense um and uh and and certain and 858 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,920 Speaker 1: yet at the same time, like are you gonna invoke 859 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,640 Speaker 1: Santa Claus in April or in July? You know, like 860 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,239 Speaker 1: that's it's so far away that it seems like it 861 00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,279 Speaker 1: would lose its impact. You know. Yeah, well that's a 862 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,640 Speaker 1: good question. What at what time of year does Santa 863 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,880 Speaker 1: Claus start to matter? Yeah? Or or for instance, the 864 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 1: elf on the shelf. You know, another sort of aspect 865 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: of this, uh, you know, penopticon, notion of of Santa 866 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,080 Speaker 1: watching you at all times, or possibly watching you at 867 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,440 Speaker 1: all times. You don't know, you don't know what's going 868 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 1: on in the eye of the panopticon. The panopticon, for 869 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: anyone who's not familiar with that term like this refers 870 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,040 Speaker 1: back to a basic design for a prison in which 871 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,880 Speaker 1: you have a large settilance cylindrical space with the cells 872 00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,919 Speaker 1: of the prison lining the inside walls. And at these 873 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,560 Speaker 1: center of this vast cylinder there's a single guard tower 874 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,279 Speaker 1: and there's really only like you know, one or two 875 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,880 Speaker 1: guards in there, but you can't see where they're looking. 876 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 1: They could be looking into your cell. All cells are 877 00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,399 Speaker 1: visible to the panopticons central tower. Um, you just don't 878 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: know who they're looking at right now, and may well 879 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: be you. I mean I I certainly I bristle at 880 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:27,640 Speaker 1: the idea of of enforcing the panopticons, especially supernaturally on children. 881 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,279 Speaker 1: But then at the same time I think, well, that's 882 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: not unusual historically, right, I mean it just it seems 883 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,880 Speaker 1: to be the norm that children are generally taught about 884 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,960 Speaker 1: Santa Claus or ELpH on the Shell for about, you know, 885 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,760 Speaker 1: just supernatural deities or anything like that that's always watching 886 00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:48,080 Speaker 1: what they do. Uh. So not not to suggest that 887 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,439 Speaker 1: because it's been normal historically, it's okay, but yeah, that's 888 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 1: got to be like I mean, I was like that 889 00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 1: when I was a kid. I remember thinking that, Yeah, 890 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,839 Speaker 1: they're seeing everything. Yeah, and if you believe at all, 891 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,160 Speaker 1: there's a crowd room full of folks watching everything you do, 892 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 1: every every vile deed you've perpetrated as a child. Uh, 893 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,320 Speaker 1: Santa Claus is their crampus and elf Um, God Jesus, 894 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,920 Speaker 1: you're the spirits of your elders. They're all they're just 895 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,440 Speaker 1: waiting for you to slip up. Yeah. Anyway, coming back 896 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,920 Speaker 1: to the research I was just talking about, So we 897 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,319 Speaker 1: were talking about the possible reasons why rewards could be 898 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:27,279 Speaker 1: more salient for young children, and it's because in some 899 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,920 Speaker 1: cases it's a reward is an easier type of reinforcement 900 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:35,640 Speaker 1: to process mentally and understand that punishments can be confusing. 901 00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,640 Speaker 1: It's harder to establish exactly the link between what you 902 00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,680 Speaker 1: did wrong, the punishment, and what you should be doing instead. 903 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 1: But the other question would be the other side of 904 00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,799 Speaker 1: the coin, what's going on in adults that appears to, 905 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,279 Speaker 1: at least in many cases, make punishments more powerful than 906 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,160 Speaker 1: rewards for them. Uh, this doesn't really explain it, but 907 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,080 Speaker 1: it does seem in keeping with a widely observed principle 908 00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,960 Speaker 1: in cognitive psychology known as law aversion, which is this 909 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,719 Speaker 1: bias where simply put, on average people are much more 910 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,720 Speaker 1: strongly motivated to avoid losses than they are to acquire 911 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,440 Speaker 1: equivalent gains. So what this means is that you've got 912 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,200 Speaker 1: a bunch of experiments showing people would work harder, would 913 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:21,239 Speaker 1: do more to avoid losing ten dollars they already have, 914 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,239 Speaker 1: than they would to acquire ten dollars they don't have yet. 915 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,840 Speaker 1: So monetarily the loss in the road, it's exactly equivalent. 916 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,560 Speaker 1: But it's just the question of like it feels so 917 00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,239 Speaker 1: much worse to lose something you have than to not 918 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,560 Speaker 1: get something you could get. It's kind of I've become 919 00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,400 Speaker 1: accustomed to a certain lifestyle mentality, and it's there in 920 00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,400 Speaker 1: all kinds of fiction, right, you know, like why is 921 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,880 Speaker 1: why are the tragedies always about kings and stuff about 922 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,239 Speaker 1: people in in great exalted places of power. It's like 923 00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,239 Speaker 1: there's this idea that that being reduced from a from 924 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,040 Speaker 1: a high starting point is so much more awful and 925 00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,759 Speaker 1: tragic than having a thing has happened to you if 926 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,960 Speaker 1: you were already suffering. Yeah, and I mean and certainly 927 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,400 Speaker 1: for a child. You know, when when you get into them, 928 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:11,200 Speaker 1: like the material possession of toys, like to to take 929 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,920 Speaker 1: the toy away is it says, it's like almost a 930 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:18,239 Speaker 1: violent act. You know, you've you've taken away, um, you know, 931 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,560 Speaker 1: a part of their body almost. Um. There was there 932 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:25,759 Speaker 1: was recently a time where my wife took our son 933 00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,000 Speaker 1: to like a thrift store and there was a stuffed 934 00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:33,000 Speaker 1: animal he really wanted and he m he remarked to 935 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,799 Speaker 1: my life, he said, he said, this, U my, my 936 00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,879 Speaker 1: whole body wants this toy, you know, which I thought 937 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 1: was great because that really does sum out just how 938 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:46,239 Speaker 1: um important Uh, these these physical toys are to us 939 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,840 Speaker 1: as children, like our whole body wants them, and we 940 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 1: will be incomplete if we do not have it. And likewise, 941 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,320 Speaker 1: if it is taken away from us you were taking 942 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,520 Speaker 1: away a part of them. I don't know this is 943 00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,800 Speaker 1: the case, but I would suspect it's a lot harder 944 00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,760 Speaker 1: to deny a toy to a child once the child 945 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,040 Speaker 1: has already had it in their hands. Like it's there's 946 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,719 Speaker 1: gonna be way more grief about, Like you can't have 947 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:12,880 Speaker 1: a toy that they've already picked up in a handle 948 00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,520 Speaker 1: versus one that's still on the shelves. And it's always 949 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:17,920 Speaker 1: the worst when you're in like a Barnes and Noble 950 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,960 Speaker 1: or something, you know, and then you see that your 951 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,640 Speaker 1: child is carrying something from with them now from another aisle, 952 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,640 Speaker 1: like they've already like the toy has imprinted on them. 953 00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,080 Speaker 1: It's gonna be that much harder and how much more 954 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,279 Speaker 1: tragic to extract from the store without a purchase. It's 955 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,560 Speaker 1: the pain. I feel it, all right. We need to 956 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,799 Speaker 1: take a quick break, but we'll be right back. It's 957 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,240 Speaker 1: the time of year when everyone is traveling or running 958 00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,080 Speaker 1: around getting thoughtful gifts for the people you care about. 959 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,120 Speaker 1: Think about giving yourself the gift of an audible membership. 960 00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,080 Speaker 1: Now is the best time to do it. With a 961 00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,200 Speaker 1: special offer of fifty three percent off your first three 962 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,640 Speaker 1: months you can access an unbeatable selection of audio books, 963 00:54:55,640 --> 00:55:00,560 Speaker 1: including bestsellers, motivation, mysteries, thrillers, memoirs, and more. You can 964 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,479 Speaker 1: choose three titles every month, one audio book and two 965 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,840 Speaker 1: exclusive Audible originals that you cannot hear anywhere else. 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That's more than half off the regular price. 973 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,399 Speaker 1: You know, I've recently been really enjoying an audible book, 974 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,600 Speaker 1: so I'm listening to the most recent in Philip Pullman's 975 00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,120 Speaker 1: Book of Dust series and the sequel to the original, 976 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,839 Speaker 1: His Dark Materials, which is one of my favorite like 977 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,799 Speaker 1: fantasy book series ever. Philip Pullman is a great writer. 978 00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:48,520 Speaker 1: The new one is called The Secret Commonwealth, you know, 979 00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,680 Speaker 1: named after that great book by I think it was 980 00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,640 Speaker 1: like a Scottish clergyman who wrote about the elves and 981 00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:56,400 Speaker 1: fawns and fairies and all this kind of stuff. But 982 00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:58,880 Speaker 1: the the audio book is read by Michael Sheen and 983 00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,120 Speaker 1: it's just fantastic. The book is so good and it's 984 00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:06,640 Speaker 1: a really really great audible audiobook performance. I'm loving it. Well. 985 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,600 Speaker 1: My son and I are currently enjoying Michael Inda's The 986 00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:13,920 Speaker 1: Never Ending Story. Uh, fantastic book. Of course, people for 987 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,040 Speaker 1: me with the movie, but fantastic book. And it is 988 00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,880 Speaker 1: available on Audible right now. So right now, for a 989 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,400 Speaker 1: limited time, you can get three months of Audible for 990 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,719 Speaker 1: just six a month. That's more than half off the 991 00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:29,319 Speaker 1: regular price. You choose one audiobook and two Audible originals 992 00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:34,120 Speaker 1: absolutely free. Visit audible dot com slash mind Blown or 993 00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:38,880 Speaker 1: text mind Blown to five hundred five hundred. That's audible 994 00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:43,640 Speaker 1: dot com slash mind Blown or text mind Blown to 995 00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:49,600 Speaker 1: five hundred five hundred and start listening. Thank alright, we're back. 996 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,320 Speaker 1: So a couple more studies. I was reading about rewards 997 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,319 Speaker 1: and punishment and in their variable effects. So one was 998 00:56:55,360 --> 00:57:00,920 Speaker 1: published in Cognition by Jan Cubanick, Lawrence Snyder, Richard Abrams, 999 00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:03,600 Speaker 1: and I was reading a write up of this in 1000 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,319 Speaker 1: the wash You School of Medicine news site. UM So 1001 00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,520 Speaker 1: this was study dealing with the relative effects of rewards 1002 00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,520 Speaker 1: versus punishments on a difficult task where subjects had to 1003 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,480 Speaker 1: count numbers of like binaral clicks that they were hearing 1004 00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,920 Speaker 1: and headphones, or count numbers of localized flashes of light 1005 00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,280 Speaker 1: they saw, and it was a difficult test. And then 1006 00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,920 Speaker 1: they were given randomized payouts of different value tokens between 1007 00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,440 Speaker 1: five and twenty five cents, and the tokens were awarded 1008 00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:36,000 Speaker 1: for correct answers or taken away for incorrect answers, and 1009 00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:40,440 Speaker 1: so subjects who were rewarded tended to repeat their previous answer. 1010 00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:42,800 Speaker 1: That's not surprising because, like you know, when you get 1011 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,440 Speaker 1: a reward, you the simplest thing to do is just 1012 00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:49,840 Speaker 1: do what you did before. Meanwhile, subjects who were punished 1013 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:54,960 Speaker 1: strongly avoided repeating their previous answers, and the magnitude of 1014 00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,880 Speaker 1: these effects were asymmetrical. This is what they found. They 1015 00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:02,200 Speaker 1: found that losses had two to three times more motivating 1016 00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,840 Speaker 1: power than equivalent gains did, but also effects for the 1017 00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:10,120 Speaker 1: punishment factor. We're strong no matter no matter the magnitude 1018 00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,840 Speaker 1: of the punishment, even very small punishments deducting five cents, 1019 00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:18,280 Speaker 1: we're strongly motivating to produce changes in behavior. And so 1020 00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:21,840 Speaker 1: one of the authors, Jan Kubanick, said to this news 1021 00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,840 Speaker 1: site quote regarding teaching strategies, our studies suggests that negative 1022 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:30,080 Speaker 1: feedback may be more effective than positive feedback at modifying behavior. 1023 00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,720 Speaker 1: Our study showed that such feedback does not have to 1024 00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,080 Speaker 1: be harsh, since it appears that we tend to react 1025 00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:38,200 Speaker 1: in the same manner to any amount of negative feedback. 1026 00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,840 Speaker 1: From an evolutionary perspective, people tend to avoid punishments or 1027 00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,400 Speaker 1: dangerous situations. Rewards, on the other hand, have less of 1028 00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:49,280 Speaker 1: a life threatening impact. Uh So, okay, so that's one 1029 00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,240 Speaker 1: thing here, But then a little bit on the other hand, 1030 00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:56,160 Speaker 1: I was reading article in the Harvard Business Review by 1031 00:58:56,160 --> 00:59:00,320 Speaker 1: a cognitive neuroscientists at University College London named Tali Shiro, 1032 00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,240 Speaker 1: and contrary to what we were just learning about punishments 1033 00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,360 Speaker 1: being more motivating than rewards and adults, Shiro begins the 1034 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,800 Speaker 1: article by drawing attention to a two thousand eleven study 1035 00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,280 Speaker 1: carried out at New York at a New York State 1036 00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:17,320 Speaker 1: hospital published in the journal Clinical and Infectious Diseases by 1037 00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,560 Speaker 1: Donna Armelino at All and the basic gist is like this, 1038 00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,680 Speaker 1: So You've got healthcare workers and they are supposed to 1039 00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:27,960 Speaker 1: sanitize their hands whenever they enter and exit a patient's room. 1040 00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:31,960 Speaker 1: Healthcare workers are constantly reminded of this fact and of 1041 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,720 Speaker 1: how important the practice is for stopping the spread of 1042 00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:40,400 Speaker 1: potentially deadly infectious disease. And yet, when this hospital installed 1043 00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:44,840 Speaker 1: cameras at hand hygiene stations to monitor the healthcare worker behaviors, 1044 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:49,160 Speaker 1: they discovered a dismal compliance rate. Only about ten percent 1045 00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:53,400 Speaker 1: of medical staff sanitize their hands upon entering and exiting 1046 00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,440 Speaker 1: patient rooms, even though they knew the cameras were present. 1047 00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,480 Speaker 1: Then the hospital introduced a feedback mech is M to 1048 01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,320 Speaker 1: see if this would improve the hygiene. It was a 1049 01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:07,120 Speaker 1: simple electronic board on the wall which gave positive messages 1050 01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,800 Speaker 1: like good job to workers who fully sanitize their hands 1051 01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,800 Speaker 1: when they were supposed to, and the rates of hand 1052 01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:18,480 Speaker 1: sanitization rocketed up from about ten percent to about nine percent. 1053 01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:22,440 Speaker 1: And then these results were replicated at another hospital. So 1054 01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,920 Speaker 1: the question is why, like why would this simple trivial 1055 01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,000 Speaker 1: reward be more powerful as a motivator than the threat 1056 01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:35,240 Speaker 1: of potentially spreading infectious disease which could literally kill people. 1057 01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,680 Speaker 1: And Schiro has got a very interesting answer here. The 1058 01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,960 Speaker 1: the suggestion is that this is actually consistent with a 1059 01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:46,120 Speaker 1: large body of research in psychology and neuroscience that shows 1060 01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,200 Speaker 1: that there's a difference based on whether you're trying to 1061 01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:53,320 Speaker 1: get people to do something to perform an action, or 1062 01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:57,360 Speaker 1: trying to prevent them from performing an action, and Shiro 1063 01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,840 Speaker 1: says that the evidence indicates the threats of punishment or 1064 01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:07,000 Speaker 1: more effective when trying to keep people from doing bad things. Meanwhile, rewards, 1065 01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:11,320 Speaker 1: even minor positive reinforcements, are more effective if you're trying 1066 01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:14,520 Speaker 1: to get people to actively do something, if you're trying 1067 01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,680 Speaker 1: to motivate an action rather than prohibit it. So by 1068 01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:21,320 Speaker 1: this token, the threat of spreading infectious disease might be 1069 01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:25,360 Speaker 1: more effective at keeping people out of a restricted pathology lab, 1070 01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:28,240 Speaker 1: so you know, the threat motivates you to stay out, 1071 01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:31,720 Speaker 1: whereas the smiley face and the good job message are 1072 01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,120 Speaker 1: more effective at motivating people to perform a simple positive 1073 01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:39,560 Speaker 1: action over and over, like using the hand sanitizer and uh, 1074 01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,840 Speaker 1: this was interesting. Shiro thinks this is consistent with the 1075 01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:48,000 Speaker 1: evolutionary context in which motivation and inhibition arose. So like normally, 1076 01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:50,360 Speaker 1: if you think about for an animal to get a reward. 1077 01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:54,440 Speaker 1: Usually it needs to do something to go foraging for food, 1078 01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:56,840 Speaker 1: to put in the effort to wu a made or whatever. 1079 01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,240 Speaker 1: But in order to avoid danger, most of the time 1080 01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,400 Speaker 1: it needs to not to do something like don't go 1081 01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,680 Speaker 1: in the deep water, don't go off on your own, 1082 01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,760 Speaker 1: don't eat this plant, that kind of thing. And the 1083 01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:10,720 Speaker 1: author gives the example that this is why one of 1084 01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:14,120 Speaker 1: the most primal reactions animals have to a threatening stimulus 1085 01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,479 Speaker 1: is to freeze. When there's a threat and you don't 1086 01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,680 Speaker 1: fully understand it yet you're still processing what the threat is. 1087 01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:26,600 Speaker 1: The instinctual reaction is don't do anything, just freeze. And 1088 01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,360 Speaker 1: I think that's an interesting explanation for what might be 1089 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,240 Speaker 1: going on there, But they also write that this might 1090 01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:34,640 Speaker 1: be part of the explanation is probably not the full story, 1091 01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,960 Speaker 1: because they're probably also social incentives for things like, you know, 1092 01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:41,000 Speaker 1: showing something on a board in a hospital where everybody 1093 01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,600 Speaker 1: can see it. Right. But Shiro and colleagues who also 1094 01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:48,920 Speaker 1: conducted research showing a similar dynamic, where the short version 1095 01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:52,280 Speaker 1: is volunteers were faster to press a button when they 1096 01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,600 Speaker 1: would get a dollar than they were to press a 1097 01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,960 Speaker 1: button to avoid losing a dollar. So the reward motivates 1098 01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,960 Speaker 1: the action, but they were better at refraining from pressing 1099 01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:04,400 Speaker 1: a button when doing so would prevent them from losing 1100 01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,600 Speaker 1: a dollar than it would result in them gaining a dollar, 1101 01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:12,720 Speaker 1: So the threat of punishment motivated inhibition. Uh. And another 1102 01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,480 Speaker 1: interesting finding was the right that people often interpret positive 1103 01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:21,000 Speaker 1: information like the promise of rewards as relevant to them personally, 1104 01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:25,320 Speaker 1: while interpreting negative information like the threat of punishments as 1105 01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,680 Speaker 1: not applying to them personally, as being you know, maybe 1106 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,360 Speaker 1: just something about other people that have the crampus happens 1107 01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:35,040 Speaker 1: to bad kids, right exactly. But Sharrow concludes by saying, 1108 01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:38,160 Speaker 1: it's not very effective to try to scare people into 1109 01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:42,600 Speaker 1: action to make people actively do good things as opposed 1110 01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:46,680 Speaker 1: to refraining from bad things. Rewards, even small rewards, are 1111 01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:50,400 Speaker 1: usually more powerful than threats of punishment. And yet our 1112 01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,680 Speaker 1: basic Santa story is totally screwed up because the hell 1113 01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:56,160 Speaker 1: thing is Santa's watching, and there are all these things 1114 01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,960 Speaker 1: you better not do in order to get the reward. 1115 01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:03,200 Speaker 1: It's not it's not like the the the positive reward 1116 01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:07,880 Speaker 1: is not attached to any kind of positive action usually, well, 1117 01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:09,320 Speaker 1: I mean, for I think for a lot of kids 1118 01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,240 Speaker 1: and maybe it's like, you know, you do your chores, 1119 01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:13,400 Speaker 1: you help out around the house, you share, or you 1120 01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,720 Speaker 1: do that kind of thing, right, Yeah, I guess so. 1121 01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:20,640 Speaker 1: But it seems like the like the basic Christmas Carol 1122 01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:25,160 Speaker 1: Ebenezer Scrooge kind of messaging towards adults, that the holidays 1123 01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:27,200 Speaker 1: at a time when you should make, you should act, 1124 01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:30,000 Speaker 1: you should do things to help give to charity, and 1125 01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:32,880 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Like that's more about the adults 1126 01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,919 Speaker 1: Christmas messaging as opposed to the childhood Christmas messaging, which 1127 01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:40,280 Speaker 1: is more like just don't be bad, which is kind 1128 01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:44,400 Speaker 1: of a low threshold to set, right, Um, maybe it 1129 01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,760 Speaker 1: should be more along the lines of go out and 1130 01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:50,160 Speaker 1: do good things. Uh, you know, ask about ask about 1131 01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:53,920 Speaker 1: helping out in the house more, ask your your parents 1132 01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,920 Speaker 1: about doing things in your community, that sort of thing. Well, yeah, 1133 01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:59,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I think one thing that comes up here 1134 01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,280 Speaker 1: is that there's a lot of the way that rewards 1135 01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:06,280 Speaker 1: and punishments work, or even not even rewards and punishments, 1136 01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:10,680 Speaker 1: maybe things more just like motivation work for child behavior. 1137 01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:13,920 Speaker 1: Can it can be sensitive to how you frame the 1138 01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,880 Speaker 1: issue for the child, right, just like putting the exact 1139 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,720 Speaker 1: same behavior in a different context. It seems like it 1140 01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:23,720 Speaker 1: could sometimes have a pretty strong effect on how that 1141 01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:29,200 Speaker 1: behavior is regulated, right, Like instead of when a child 1142 01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:32,000 Speaker 1: is being selfish or something and won't share their toy, 1143 01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:34,120 Speaker 1: like you could yell at them and say they're being 1144 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,320 Speaker 1: bad and you know, they need to learn how to share. 1145 01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,360 Speaker 1: Or you could say, hey, you know, let's let's practice 1146 01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:43,280 Speaker 1: modeling sharing behavior or something, and and ultimately you're getting 1147 01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:46,040 Speaker 1: at the same activity but framing it in a very 1148 01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:49,280 Speaker 1: different way. I guess. One of the big things too, 1149 01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:54,240 Speaker 1: is that certainly you may employ negative or positive reinforcement 1150 01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:57,400 Speaker 1: in a given scenario like that, um, you know, depending 1151 01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,800 Speaker 1: on the situation, in your exact parenting style. It's but 1152 01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:06,760 Speaker 1: how many people really use the Christmas mythology and Christmas 1153 01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:11,120 Speaker 1: ritual as negative or positive feedback? I don't know how 1154 01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:13,040 Speaker 1: many do that. I don't know, Like I mean, in 1155 01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:18,120 Speaker 1: my experience as a former child and current parent, I mean, 1156 01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:21,920 Speaker 1: it seems like like gifts are obtained, like everything is 1157 01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:24,840 Speaker 1: set in motion pretty early on, and it would have 1158 01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:28,960 Speaker 1: to be some really bad like cramp is worthy behavior 1159 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,280 Speaker 1: to make they actually say, okay, we're scaling back on 1160 01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:33,080 Speaker 1: the gifts. Now. This one's going back to the store, 1161 01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,080 Speaker 1: they've been too bad. I mean, it seems like more 1162 01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:38,560 Speaker 1: a situation where the holiday is set in motion and 1163 01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:40,880 Speaker 1: then you say, oh, by the way, just be a 1164 01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,320 Speaker 1: good child right now because we've got a lot on 1165 01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,720 Speaker 1: our plate just making it through December. Well yeah, I 1166 01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:49,640 Speaker 1: mean it's so you're you're talking about the reality there 1167 01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,160 Speaker 1: that like often even when a child is maybe like 1168 01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:55,200 Speaker 1: threatened with rewards or punishments concerning Christmas, a lot of 1169 01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:59,320 Speaker 1: times there's not necessarily a lot of real causality taking place. 1170 01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:01,680 Speaker 1: But they mean it could be a situation to where 1171 01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:05,560 Speaker 1: the ritual has lost its potency in modern time. Certainly, 1172 01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:08,440 Speaker 1: that would that would be in keeping with what our 1173 01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,600 Speaker 1: holidays have become totally, and you know that there there 1174 01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:14,120 Speaker 1: are other things too that you know might make you 1175 01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,080 Speaker 1: think twice, even about the even if you're saying, okay, 1176 01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:19,479 Speaker 1: well I'm not going to punishment route, I wouldn't threaten 1177 01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:22,880 Speaker 1: child with with with crampus or whatever, which, okay, good 1178 01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:25,600 Speaker 1: on you, But that might make you think twice, even 1179 01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:28,400 Speaker 1: with the reward framing. Because I was reading an article 1180 01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:31,080 Speaker 1: in The New York Times from by a therapist named 1181 01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:34,360 Speaker 1: Heather Turgeon who pointed out some things I've never read 1182 01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:39,520 Speaker 1: about before. She just mentioned some possible downsides of rewards 1183 01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:42,960 Speaker 1: in addition to punishments for controlling child behavior, which are 1184 01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:46,960 Speaker 1: For example, some studies find um that the introduction of 1185 01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:52,560 Speaker 1: a reward structure can sometimes decrease intrinsic motivation for for like, 1186 01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:56,120 Speaker 1: good behaviors, so like. And I'm not sure how consistently 1187 01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:58,120 Speaker 1: this holds up, but at least in a few experiments, 1188 01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:00,800 Speaker 1: like if a kid likes to draw all and then 1189 01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:04,400 Speaker 1: you start paying them to draw, they will naturally start 1190 01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:08,320 Speaker 1: to draw less. The same for sharing. Right, introduce a 1191 01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:14,480 Speaker 1: payout scheme for sharing, and sharing decreases under naturalistic conditions. Uh. 1192 01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:17,040 Speaker 1: And the author here writes, quote, this is what psychologists 1193 01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:21,800 Speaker 1: called the over justification effect. The external reward overshadows the 1194 01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:25,280 Speaker 1: child's internal motivation. Which I mean, that sounds like a 1195 01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:27,920 Speaker 1: really tragic effect. If you actually were to bring something 1196 01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:31,439 Speaker 1: like that about, right, I mean, you're you should your 1197 01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:35,000 Speaker 1: your desire to do something should not be destroyed by 1198 01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,200 Speaker 1: rewards for doing that thing, not until you enter the workforce. 1199 01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:41,160 Speaker 1: And exactly isn't that I mean, like, that's one of 1200 01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:43,519 Speaker 1: the dangers about you know. I mean, on one hand, 1201 01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:45,160 Speaker 1: it's great to be able to do what you love 1202 01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:47,400 Speaker 1: for a living, but there's a dark side to it. 1203 01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:49,519 Speaker 1: Do right, you know, if you do what you love 1204 01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,360 Speaker 1: for a living, it kind of has it has some 1205 01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:54,960 Speaker 1: power to corrupt what you love it and makes it 1206 01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:57,200 Speaker 1: about money. It makes it like this is what I 1207 01:08:57,280 --> 01:08:59,519 Speaker 1: have to do. Yeah, now I get to stress out 1208 01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:01,599 Speaker 1: about the thing that used to be my hobby. Yeah. 1209 01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:05,080 Speaker 1: So anyway, I would say in the end, rewards and punishments, uh, 1210 01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:08,400 Speaker 1: their effects on us, I think are very complicated. I 1211 01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:11,120 Speaker 1: hope you have learned something for that from this, even 1212 01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:13,519 Speaker 1: though I can't clearly say it's just one way or 1213 01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:16,280 Speaker 1: the other. Rewards are better, punishments are better. But I 1214 01:09:16,320 --> 01:09:19,120 Speaker 1: will say, do not punish your children with threats of demons, 1215 01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:21,920 Speaker 1: no matter what I think, that is across the board 1216 01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,759 Speaker 1: going to be bad. So, as with any Crampus ritual, 1217 01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:27,360 Speaker 1: you may well have learned nothing, but hopefully it was 1218 01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:31,599 Speaker 1: at least a spectacle. That's uh. At least it hopefully 1219 01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:35,000 Speaker 1: entertained you. I hope your your tongue is lolling violently 1220 01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:39,679 Speaker 1: thirty inches out of your mouth. Now. Obviously, we would 1221 01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:41,680 Speaker 1: love to hear from folks out there, because I know 1222 01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,679 Speaker 1: we have we have listeners around the world, certainly we 1223 01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:47,479 Speaker 1: we have we probably have some listeners in the United 1224 01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:52,240 Speaker 1: States that have participated in some of the newer Crampus 1225 01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:55,120 Speaker 1: traditions here and then hopefully we have some listeners who 1226 01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,680 Speaker 1: have witnessed or participated in some of the more traditional 1227 01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:02,920 Speaker 1: rights of these alpine regions that we mentioned. And of course, 1228 01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:05,920 Speaker 1: in general, I think we all have something no matter what. 1229 01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:10,120 Speaker 1: If you celebrate anything like uh, you know, you know 1230 01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:13,519 Speaker 1: Christmas or holiday traditions, or even if you don't, you 1231 01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:17,080 Speaker 1: probably have something to say about negative and positive reinforcement 1232 01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:19,720 Speaker 1: as a child or a or a parent. Uh, And 1233 01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:22,400 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you about that. In the meantime, 1234 01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:24,040 Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff 1235 01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:25,840 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, he don't know, over to Stuff 1236 01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:28,400 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where you'll find them. Uh, 1237 01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:31,479 Speaker 1: let's see what else. Um. Yeah, there's a merch store 1238 01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:33,120 Speaker 1: up there if you want to check out our merch 1239 01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, they're all sorts of year end sales going 1240 01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:39,400 Speaker 1: on at the moment. Good place to get Christmas gifts. Yeah. 1241 01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:42,600 Speaker 1: And then in terms of other shows, uh, there's the 1242 01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:46,120 Speaker 1: second oil age for horror and science fiction. All those 1243 01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:49,200 Speaker 1: episodes are out and you can binge them and then invention. 1244 01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:53,639 Speaker 1: Our other podcasts, the podcast about human techno History, we've 1245 01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,800 Speaker 1: been doing some episodes on toys, classic toys and where 1246 01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:59,759 Speaker 1: they came from, who invented them, because certainly even something 1247 01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:04,000 Speaker 1: like a slinky UH that had to be created, that 1248 01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:07,160 Speaker 1: had to emerge from the human mind and and UH 1249 01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:11,280 Speaker 1: and be brought to life through technology, and the story 1250 01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:13,320 Speaker 1: of how that comes together is fascinating. So I hope 1251 01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,479 Speaker 1: you check that show out as well, and whichever show 1252 01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:19,040 Speaker 1: you're listening to, just make sure that you have subscribed 1253 01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:21,559 Speaker 1: and that you were rating and reviewing it, because that 1254 01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:23,320 Speaker 1: is a great way to help these shows out in 1255 01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:27,040 Speaker 1: and ensure that they have more life absolutely huge things. 1256 01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:30,439 Speaker 1: As always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 1257 01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:32,120 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1258 01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:34,599 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest 1259 01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:37,080 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, just to say hello, you 1260 01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:40,280 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 1261 01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:49,600 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a 1262 01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:52,400 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radios. How stuff works For more podcasts 1263 01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:54,799 Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio is the iHeart Radio app Apple 1264 01:11:54,840 --> 01:12:05,040 Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows by 1265 01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:13,520 Speaker 1: point four point four foot