1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,559 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 2: Brian Coburger stressed behind bars, Really inmates constantly harassing Coburger 3 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 2: through the air vnce boohoo, as we learn who Coburger 4 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: and his fleet of attorneys planned to blame. 5 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: For the murders. At trial, This. 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 2: As we learned the FEDS could seek the death penalty. 7 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: Even now, I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 3: Chilling crime scene photos released in the Brian Coberger case, 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 3: detailing the tragic murders of the four University of Idaho 11 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 3: students killed in the attack. 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 2: The irony that now we are learning about the true 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: brutality of these four murders after the deal is done. 14 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 2: This as we are learning Brian Coburger is stressed behind bars, 15 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 2: inmates constantly harassing. 16 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 1: Him through the air vents and more. 17 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 2: But before I get to those facts, I'm going to 18 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: go straight out to renown psycho analyst doctor Bethany Marshall 19 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: joining us out. 20 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: Of Beverly Hills, author of deal Breaker. 21 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 2: You can see her now on Peacock and you can 22 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 2: find her at doctor Bethanymarshall dot com. Doctor Bethany Marshall 23 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: I'm just a trial lawyer. You're the shrink. This is 24 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 2: completely mass awkwards. He's stressed behind bars, and he's whining 25 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: because inmates are whispering. 26 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: To him and yelling at him through the air vents. 27 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not exactly sure what a narcissist is 28 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,279 Speaker 2: when the whole world revolves. 29 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: Around me, me me, me, me me, me, me me me, 30 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: but I think that would be him. 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 4: Associate path is a narcissist on steroids. It is the 32 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 4: same disorder, Nancy. It's a spectrum disorder like narcissist lack empathy. 33 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 4: Sociopaths have no feeling for other human beings or even 34 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 4: for themselves, Nancy. So this whole idea that he's stressed 35 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,839 Speaker 4: behind bars could mean only one of two things. One 36 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 4: is that he's just manipulating the judge. That's it, because 37 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 4: I don't think he feels much at all. The other 38 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 4: is that maybe he's getting some kind of pleasure from 39 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 4: all the attention he's getting and he just wants to 40 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 4: talk about the Other is that he probably has not 41 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 4: received any consequences for his actions thus far in lives, 42 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 4: so the fact that he's actually having consequences is surprising. 43 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 4: To him, and so he has to talk about it. 44 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: You know, I'm learning so much as all pouring out 45 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 2: now that the deal is done, I'll tell you is 46 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: probably stressed, which I'm going to get to and just 47 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: to mow was Susan hendrickson Dave's Mac the people that 48 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: Brian Kiberger was planning to blame at trial forget about 49 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 2: him being not guilty. 50 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: According to him, of course, which is a lie. 51 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: But he was actually going to compound by blaming somebody 52 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: else for the murders, knowing full well he's guilty. 53 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: And I don't mean just some. 54 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 2: Hey there was another burglary down the street the week before. No, 55 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: he was actually going to blame a specific friend of 56 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: the victims, and that friend of the victims would have 57 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: those allegations hanging over his head the rest of his life, 58 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: even though Coberger knew he was guilty. That takes a 59 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: certain mindset. You're not just claiming I'm guilty. Don't see 60 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: me to the death penalty, You're. 61 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: Actually blaming another person. 62 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: And Philip Dbay without going to deathcom four in the 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: law Guy's Doby, veteran trial lawyer joining us out of 64 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: the LA jurisdiction debate. For a defendant to blame a 65 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: third person is the sod some other dude did it. 66 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: You can't just say, hey, crime statistics are up in 67 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: this neighborhood with burglary, so is one of them. To 68 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 2: bring in some other dude did it. You have to 69 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: have an actual dude. You have to have It can't 70 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: be an amorphous maybe this person did it. Maybe you 71 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 2: have to have somebody you're going to blame under the law, 72 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: that's the law in every jurisdiction. So Coburger's defense had 73 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: actually picked out somebody to blame. 74 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 5: It's not enough. 75 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 6: You have to show more than a means motive, an opportunity. 76 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 6: You have to show that there is corroborating evidence linking 77 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 6: that alternate perpetrator if you go to the crime itself, 78 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 6: and that's why you have the judges steps in and says, look, 79 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 6: if you can't link the two, then you're really asking 80 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 6: a jury to find unreasonable doubt. 81 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 7: As to who the real perpetrator is. And the judge 82 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 7: will step in and show you. 83 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,559 Speaker 2: What I'm taking that to Maine that you're trying to say, yes, 84 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 2: the defendant must point to a specific person, and in 85 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: this case, the defense had created a lot of links 86 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: between that person and the victims, knowing full well and 87 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: ultimately pleading guilty to the murders. 88 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: I mean doctor Bethany Marshall. Back to me me me me, me, 89 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: me me me. 90 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 2: Brian Coberger, who is stressed behind bars, he actually had 91 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: escapegoat that he was willing to take down for that 92 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: person forever. 93 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: To have that dark cloud over them. 94 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: Hey, maybe he did it for the rest of his life, 95 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: for the rest of his family's lives, so Coburger could 96 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,559 Speaker 2: walk free. That's a whole another layer of evil right there. 97 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: Not just I didn't do it, believe me, jurie, but 98 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: he did it. 99 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: Blame him. That's pretty bold, wouldn't. 100 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 4: You start ancb Oh, yeah, Nancy, you referenced narcissism early. 101 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 4: You know, the primary feature again is lack of empathy 102 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 4: towards others. The second feature of malignant narcissism is destructiveness. 103 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 4: People who are malignant narcissists want to take everybody down 104 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 4: around them. The destruction could be committing homicide, or for 105 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 4: anybody who's married to a malignant narcissist, it could be 106 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 4: destroying your friends, isolating you from other people. Total lack 107 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 4: of remorse over what happens to you. And then when 108 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 4: you get associopath on steroids, you have the addition of cruelty, 109 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 4: which is not just dragging other people in because you 110 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 4: don't care about them, but you enjoy seeing other people's sweat, 111 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 4: cry bleed, whatever it is, you get pleasure from that. 112 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 2: Straight out to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter, who 113 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 2: exactly was Brian Coberger planning to blame for four vicious murders? 114 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: This is a whole another layer of evil as just. 115 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: Now, well after the deal has already done, Sign Silvan 116 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 2: delivered on that guilty plea to escape the death penalty. 117 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: Now we're learning about the brutal nature of the crimes, 118 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: more and more details of him lying in wait, walking 119 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: around the murder scene, even finding and tracing his trail 120 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,679 Speaker 2: footsteps in the snow Coburger left behind. 121 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: But we're learning his defense. 122 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: His defense was to blame an innocent person, Dave mac 123 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: who did Coburger planned to blame. 124 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 3: Of the four people he planned to blame, one of 125 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 3: them was Kayleiganzovez's ex boyfriend known as j D, who 126 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 3: she shared the dog Murphy with. They actually had that 127 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 3: as their first child, and that's who he planned to 128 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 3: put all of this on. 129 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: Dave mac did I hear you say that there were 130 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: four people he planned to blame. 131 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 3: He did, and Nancy. Three of the four, by the way, 132 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 3: we don't have the names of any of them, but 133 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 3: three of the four had an acquaintance or some type 134 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 3: of social or other media involvement with one of the roommates. 135 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 3: But it came out that Kaylee Gonzavez had an ex 136 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 3: boyfriend who she actually tried to contact that morning. If 137 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 3: you remember, there were several phone calls that Kaylee and 138 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 3: Matty made to the ex boyfriend and it was, you know, 139 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 3: talking of they had a good relationship. Even though they 140 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 3: were broken up. Their families actually fully expected them to 141 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 3: get back together. They were just going through a down face. 142 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 3: But they did share the dog, Murphy, that was a 143 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 3: mutually owned pet, and that's what they were communicating about. 144 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 3: So coburger plan, his offense team was to roll this 145 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 3: ex boyfriend under the bus and blame him for everything. 146 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: Guys, earlier, you heard Dubey and he was correct where 147 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 2: the defense creates links between the phantom perpetrator and the 148 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: crime and in this case and correct me if I'm wrong, 149 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix joining us and Dave Mack. There were four 150 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: individuals Coburger planned to blame for the murders, one the 151 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: ex boyfriend, and the other. Speaking of those links that 152 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 2: Dubay brought up, the judge even noticed that three of 153 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: the friends lived within walking distance of the King Road scene, right, 154 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: so it's placing them in the scene. They were friends, 155 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 2: and they had likely been in the home, and their 156 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: fingerprints or their DNA would be in the home. Clearly 157 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: the ex boyfriend fingerprints or DNA would be in the home. 158 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: The point is those links between some other dude and 159 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 2: the murders could easily be demonstrated by fingerprints in DNA, 160 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: free living within walking distance, one having had a. 161 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: Romantic relationship with one of the victims. 162 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: Those would be the links that Coburger would capitalize upon 163 00:09:58,679 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: to blame somebody. 164 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: And what I'm saying Susan Hendricks with US now. 165 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 2: Investigative reporter and author of an incredible book, Down the 166 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: hiel My descended to the double murder in Delphi. Susan 167 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: blaming somebody else and naming them by name, to have 168 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: that forever hanging over their head. That's not why he's 169 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: stressed behind bars that he was going to stab somebody 170 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: else in the back. He's stressed behind bars because the 171 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: inmates are whispering to him through the events, calling him 172 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 2: the killer, and he's whining about it. 173 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: Seriously. 174 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 8: Absolutely, it's all about Brian Coworker and it's always has 175 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 8: been in Sadly, it doesn't surprise me. The finger pointing, Nancy, 176 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 8: I saw it in Delphi with the Odinis theory and 177 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 8: names were named. Meanwhile, the judge said, hey, there's no connection, 178 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 8: you can't use the third party descent, but he didn't care. 179 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 8: And bringing up Ca Lee's X. They were on an 180 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 8: off high school sweethearts Jack Declor. They called each other 181 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 8: several times that night. Also, Maddie tried to call him 182 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 8: and he was cleared by police and he just disappeared 183 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 8: because he was being harassed. And the finger pointing. This 184 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 8: is before Coburger was arrested. But it doesn't surprise me 185 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 8: at all that Coburger only cares about himself and being 186 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 8: stretched because of what he's going through, not the lives 187 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 8: he destroyed. 188 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: I mean, doctor Bethany Marshall, don't you know that Brian 189 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 2: Coberger and his defense team were just salivating, drooling when 190 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: they learned the ex boyfriend was scheduled to come in 191 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: and give fingerprints at the Moscow police station. They're like, hey, jackpot, 192 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 2: let's blame him. Regardless of what would do to the 193 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 2: ex boyfriend and the three other friends they planned to 194 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 2: blame what. 195 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: It would do to their lives, that meant nothing to them. 196 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 4: It was like, oh, happy day for them. It meant 197 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 4: absolutely nothing that these kids, and these were college kids, 198 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 4: their reputations would be ruined for the rest of their life. 199 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 4: But you know what it also shows, Nancy, is the 200 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 4: level of most autical planning that Coberger engaged in. His 201 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 4: whole life was organized around eventually committing this crime. From 202 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 4: being a criminology student to being a security guard, to 203 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 4: getting girls numbers at bars, to trying to be more 204 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 4: outward and outgoing. 205 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: Than he really was. 206 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 4: He thought about this for years, Nancy, So I wouldn't 207 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 4: be surprised if learning who was living on that block 208 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 4: and who the girls were dating and the ins and 209 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 4: outs of their lives were also a part of the sick, 210 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 4: twisted fantasy life that he engaged in. Probably this is 211 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 4: so sick. I hate to even say it, but even 212 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 4: imagining the sex lives of these girls with their boyfriends 213 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 4: and the nature of the interactions, and maybe even in 214 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 4: a cruel statistic way, wanting to throw those boys under 215 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 4: the bus because they got the girl, not him. 216 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 2: Okay, you know what, very often when trying cases, I 217 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: would ask a witness to repeat something, something that was 218 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: particularly probative or impactful. 219 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: I need to hear what you just said. 220 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 2: Because we have uncovered a friend of Coburger's has said 221 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 2: Coburg incessantly talked about wanting a girlfriend. I think he 222 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 2: was an inceel in voluntary celibate. That's neither here nor 223 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: there at this juncture, but it fits in with what 224 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 2: you just said. 225 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: Okay, very slowly, say. 226 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 2: That again, because it just hit me as he was 227 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,599 Speaker 2: digging up and trying to create who they're going to 228 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 2: blame the sexual enjoyment he may have had about thinking 229 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 2: of the friend. 230 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: What were you saying? 231 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 4: He wasn't just a satist, Nancy. He was a lawyer 232 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 4: and in cells hate women because they can't get them, 233 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 4: and he had a long history of not being able 234 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 4: to get a girlfriend or to have a satisfactory relationship. 235 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 4: So part of the preparation for the crime was a 236 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 4: lurid fascination with the sex lives of these girls, and 237 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 4: part of that was identifying their boyfriends, men who may 238 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 4: have lived on the block, spying on them, being incredibly 239 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 4: seeingly envious and jealous of those relationships, wanting to destroy them, 240 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 4: and wanting to throw these young men under the bus 241 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 4: to get them out of the way as sexual rivals. 242 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 243 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: Dave Mac joining us. Dave Mac, it went a long way. 244 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: It went. 245 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: A good distance as far as defenses go. Trying to 246 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: frame the other four individuals. Tell me about it. 247 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: What were they digging up in order to blame the 248 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: other people? 249 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 3: And events claimed that the that three of the four 250 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 3: suspects were within walking distance of the King Road house, 251 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 3: so they had an opportunity to be right there when 252 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: they needed to be. So that was one of the 253 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 3: big things that they had about these possible alternate suspects. 254 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 2: Philip Debay, have you ever had a twin case? And 255 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: what I mean by that is, when you're a defendant, 256 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 2: it's every prosecutor's worst nightmare, and it's every defense attorney's 257 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: favorite dream when the perp actually has a twin and 258 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: the DNA is extremely similar. I actually had a murder 259 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: case where there was a twin. 260 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 8: Yeah. 261 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 2: So the point is they the defendant will do anything 262 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 2: to blame somebody else. 263 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: And in this case, you've got. 264 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: The texting to the ex boyfriend, you've got the friends 265 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: down the street. I'm sure they could have dredged up 266 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 2: some type of a misunderstanding or disagreement or anything to 267 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: support those theories. 268 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 6: Of course, And by the way, I have had that 269 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 6: not often, I believe twice in my career. One was 270 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 6: a sex trafficking murder where they found a prostitute dumped 271 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 6: in a hefty bag off the freeway here in southern California, 272 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 6: and fortunately legally, the defendant had an identical twin. They 273 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 6: filed nonetheless because they had ample evidence putting him in 274 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 6: his car at the scene where the body was done. Now, 275 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 6: having said that, even if you want to blame it 276 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 6: identical twin, there has to be more than just the 277 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 6: motive means an opportunity in matching DNA. There has to 278 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 6: be something that links that twin to the crime, not 279 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 6: necessarily socially or interactively with the victim or victims. 280 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 7: They have to be linked. 281 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: Can I just save your breath we got a lot 282 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 2: to get into the program tonight. They had that link 283 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 2: because said fingerprints DNA of all four of the potential 284 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 2: suspects at the crime scene, because they had been in 285 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: probably more than they had of Coburger. Of course, their 286 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: DNA wasn't on the knife hilt. I mean, you know, 287 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, 288 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 2: Chagual State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on 289 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 2: Amazon at start of a Hit News series Body Bags 290 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 2: with Joseph Scott Morgan. We are also now learning about 291 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: the horrific brutality of these crimes. But my point to 292 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 2: you for right now anyway, Joe Scott, is that none 293 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 2: of those four individuals DNA or fingerprints were anywhere connected 294 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 2: to the crime, not on the victims' bodies, not in 295 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 2: a bloody fingerprint, not on the murder weapon sheath. 296 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: So you know what technical legal term, I don't know 297 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: if you've ever. 298 00:17:55,760 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 2: Heard this, Coburger was screwed because his DNA was on 299 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 2: the knife sheath and not just the sheath on where he. 300 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: Had pressed in the snap. 301 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 9: I mean, yeah, it's a major problem for them. But 302 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 9: here like that. Let me give you this and this 303 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 9: is so disgusting to me on the part of the defense. Okay, 304 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 9: so you've got access, you being the defense, to all 305 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 9: of this imagery. You see everything inside of that house. 306 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,479 Speaker 9: You know how brutal this event was. I'm not going 307 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 9: to say event massacre was inside of that thank you. 308 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: I was aboud to my head was blowing off when 309 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 2: you called it an event, like it's a church social 310 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: or a bridal shower, It's not an event. It's a 311 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 2: quadruple murder. Where Ethan's arterial blood squirted. 312 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: Up on the ceiling. And now I'm learning Joe. 313 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 2: Scott he was half hanging off the bed, half hanging 314 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: off Xana's bed where his had been slashed. 315 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 9: Yeah, right, you are, and it was the environment was 316 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 9: just super saturated with blood. The defense was aware of this. 317 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 9: So you're telling me going down this road as long 318 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 9: as they've gone. Remember it was just a few days 319 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 9: before they reached this deal that they were still, you know, 320 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 9: kind of putting this out there that there was somebody 321 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 9: else involved. Why is it that you care so little 322 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 9: about the community around this location that's never experienced anything 323 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 9: like this, that you're not climbing up onto the roof 324 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 9: of every house there, screaming it that there is still 325 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 9: a murderer out there. We have their name, we have 326 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 9: the information. No, you're allowing the people in this area 327 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 9: to walk around in fear. And that's what's so obscene 328 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 9: about this, Nancy, that they go down this road and 329 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 9: they believe that there is somebody out there that has 330 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 9: the ability to commit this level of violence. But yet 331 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 9: they're not going to interdict it, not going to help 332 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 9: the community at all. They just let this person roam loose. 333 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 9: So if you've got that information, let it go. I 334 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 9: don't care about the fantasy world of courtroom right here. 335 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 9: I'm talking about the real environment at the scene, and 336 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 9: there's a major disconnect here. I don't know where their 337 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 9: moral compass is because I got to tell you, the 338 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 9: needle's broken on it. 339 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 2: Nancy, unrecognizable because of the stabs to per face, so. 340 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 9: Many stab wounds, so many stab wounds. 341 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. 342 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 9: He brutalized each and every one of them. 343 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 2: Only now is the brutality of these crimes leaking. We're 344 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 2: now finding out how horrific the crime scene really was. 345 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 2: After being told at the get go. They were killed 346 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 2: in their sleep. They probably didn't even know what hit them. 347 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: B s Now will the FEDS seek the death penalty 348 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 2: on Brian Coburger? 349 00:20:58,520 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: Listen to this. 350 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 10: Over objection from the victims' families, the Moscow Police Department 351 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 10: releases hundreds of crime scene photos and videos related to 352 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,239 Speaker 10: the investigation. One of the shocking photos is blurred as 353 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 10: it is a picture of a bed where one victim 354 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 10: was murdered. 355 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: We have all. 356 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 2: Heard of double jeopardy, which means, for instance, Orenthal James 357 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: Simpson OJ Simpson was acquitted of double murder even if 358 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: he later confessed, such as in his video and book, 359 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 2: if I did it, please stop, still couldn't retry him 360 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: at the state level. However, FEDS have a death penalty. 361 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: It is not. 362 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 2: Considered double jeopardy because the FEDS are considered a different jurisdiction, 363 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 2: so to speak, a different sovereign, as opposed to the 364 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 2: state system where he took the week plea example, Luigi Mangioni. 365 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: The FEDS swooped in and are prosecuting him on what 366 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 2: could have been state charges. 367 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: We all remember the Rodney King case. 368 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 2: And more so straight out to Philip Dubay, joining US debate. 369 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 2: It is entirely possible for the FEDS to seek the 370 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: death penalty in this case for many reasons, including crossing 371 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: state lines from Pullman to Moscow. But explain in a nutshell, 372 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: this is not a law review article. Just explain in 373 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 2: a nutshell how this could happen. 374 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 6: And obviously Coldberger's doctoral curriculum did not include federal jurisdiction. 375 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 7: The bottom line is this that the FEDS have authority. 376 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 6: To prosecute any murder where a defendant uses interstate travel 377 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 6: or inner state communications lines because there is a federal 378 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 6: interest to capture, apprehend, and prosecute anybody that does that. 379 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 7: And as soon as he. 380 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 6: Got in the car and went from Moscow or from 381 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 6: Pullman to Moscow and return then to Pullman, he immediately 382 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 6: triggered federal jurisdiction. And there are other situations as well, 383 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 6: you know, like for example, maritime admiralty, you know that 384 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 6: kind of stuff. But he is absolutely at risk now. 385 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 6: As a practical matter, I sincerely doubt that they will 386 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 6: go after him, and if they did, they could seek 387 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 6: death and the method of execution would be from the 388 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 6: law of the state. And in this case, because Idaho 389 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 6: has the firing squad. He would be subjected to that 390 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 6: if the FEDS went after him, But because he pled 391 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 6: it pretty much closed the case out. But had he 392 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 6: have gone to trial, and let's say he would have 393 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 6: been acquitted, the FEDS would have swooped in and gone 394 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 6: after him, or let's say he would have been convicted 395 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 6: and the cases on appeal, and the Fed's had some 396 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 6: concern that maybe it could get reversed, maybe because of 397 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 6: his autism spectrum disorder. 398 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 7: They would then come after him federally, but those. 399 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 11: Would be wait wait, wait, wait, whoa whoa hold on 400 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 11: before you continue, doctor Bethany Marshall, can we stop with 401 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 11: the spectrum because that was never in all the. 402 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 2: Years of him being tested and getting his pH d, 403 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: for Pete's sake, never was autism brought up until his 404 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 2: defense team brought it up after he committed quadruple murder. 405 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to hear any more about all. 406 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 2: Of his mental defects, his emotional problems, or the spectrum. 407 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: All of that has never been proved. 408 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: Those are just arguments made up by the defense, just 409 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 2: like the argument that the ex boyfriend and three friends 410 00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 2: committed the murders. 411 00:24:59,000 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: Those are lies. 412 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 4: Hey, look, has he been on medication for autism spectrum disorder? 413 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 4: I haven't heard anything about that. And also, is there 414 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 4: any medical record he went through a PhD program. I 415 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 4: think this is an insult to people who are neuro diverse. 416 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 4: It's linking a mental condition with being homicidal, and the 417 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 4: two have nothing to do with each other. 418 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 1: You know, two especial guests joining us. 419 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 2: Chris McDonough, who has been to the scene many many times. 420 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 2: He is the star of the interview room on YouTube, 421 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 2: former homicide detective with over three hundred homicide investigations under 422 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 2: his belt. 423 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: You know, Chris McDonough. 424 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: At this juncture, with so many people, including some of 425 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 2: the victims' families, revolting against this guilty plea, why wouldn't 426 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: the FEDS seek justice? 427 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 5: You know that. I think it's still on the table 428 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 5: that they could, because there is a great push from 429 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 5: the family, specifically Kayley's family, that launts this justice in 430 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 5: terms of the death penalty. So if he does, like uh, 431 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 5: you know, Councilor said here a bit ago, if in fact, 432 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 5: he starts pushing an appeal, I could see the FEDS going, hey, 433 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 5: wait a minute, this could get out of control. Really 434 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 5: fast and step in. 435 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 2: Could a legal loophole bring Brian Koberger to the federal 436 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: death penalty despite his weak plea deal? Yes, a legal 437 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: loophole could see Coburger face the death penalty despite the 438 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: plea deal. Why he crossed state lines that puts him 439 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: in the cross hears of federal charges? But will it happen? 440 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: Straight out to Susan Hendricks joining US investigative reporter, what 441 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 2: if anything do you know about the. 442 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: Possibility the fast could still swoop in? 443 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 8: Absolutely, he said, there is a possibility that I know 444 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 8: who's hoping for that. That's Kaylee's father. Because as we're 445 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 8: getting more information, it's being uncovered that he said, Look, 446 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 8: this investigation was boss in terms of the prosecution what 447 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 8: the families wanted. He even went on to say that 448 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 8: he believed they were separating the families and hitting them 449 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 8: against each other so they wouldn't bond together and say no, 450 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 8: we want to go to trial, we want the death penalty. 451 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 8: And he believes the prosecution wanted this gone. And now 452 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 8: we said he's offended because the prosecutors on a media tour, you. 453 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,360 Speaker 2: Know, exacerbating everything is that we are learning during the 454 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 2: sentencing that Kelley Gonsolvas's mother gets a death threat. 455 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 12: Listen during Coberger sentencing, someone claiming to be inside the 456 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 12: courtroom was terrorizing the mother of Kaylee Goansolves, Christy Goinsolvus, 457 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 12: received an anonymous death threat on her phone during this sentencing. 458 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 12: Hearing The text reads, sitting near you in court and watching. 459 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: You is a joke. 460 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 12: You know that Brian is innocent, but that isn't all. 461 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 12: The message continues, I am in contact with a lot 462 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 12: of serial killers, including BTK, and I've been in contact 463 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 12: with the wanna be serial killer who is in Moscow, Idaho, 464 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 12: and I have given him your address. Kayleie's dad, Steve says, 465 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 12: authorities are investigating the messages. 466 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 13: And then let me ask you, did you on November thirteenth, 467 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 13: twenty twenty two enter the residents at one one two 468 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 13: two King Road in Moscow, Idaho with the intend to commit. 469 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 3: The develony crime. 470 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 13: And I don't know notation in emergency no way. 471 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 2: Can you imagine every after everything that Gonsalves family has 472 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: lived through and are still living through along with the 473 00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 2: other victims families that missus Gonsolves actually gets a death 474 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 2: threat as she is sitting in the sentencing hearing to you, 475 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 2: Susan Hendrick's investigative reporter, therefore the sentencing exactly what happened. 476 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely there was a threat sent to Kelly's mother 477 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 8: during this. I was inside of that courtroom and we 478 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 8: didn't know it at the time, But now it's starting 479 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 8: to make sense. Why Speed stood behind his wife during 480 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 8: her victim impact statement. I think to say, hey, I'm 481 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 8: propepting my wife. Imagine the worst day you could ever 482 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 8: imagine in your life, facing the monster that did this 483 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 8: to your daughter and someone inside is threatening you. But 484 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 8: the woman next to me, the public was allowed in. 485 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 8: They had to wait in line, as did I hours before, 486 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 8: the night before. She believed that he was not guilty. 487 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 8: The Frank Coberger was not guilty. And so I'm thinking, 488 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 8: now was it her who wrote that? Who wrote it? 489 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 8: I'm thinking who was in that courtroom and who had 490 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 8: the audacity the nerve to send that to Kaylee's mother. 491 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: Shit, of all people, Dodger Bethany Marshall, to send that 492 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 2: to a victim's. 493 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: Mother in the middle of sentencing. What who are these people? 494 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 4: Nancy there want to be sociopathic killers? I mean, it 495 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 4: is not surprising to me at all that a court 496 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 4: trial like this would draw other little mini Coburgers who 497 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 4: are admiring him, who are living salaciously off of the 498 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 4: details of the crime, want to hear every little minute 499 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 4: of it and even put their toe over the line 500 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 4: by making a death threat themselves. So this does not 501 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 4: surprise me at all, And in fact, I think in 502 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 4: court cases like this, people should be more carefully screened 503 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 4: to see what their background is, what their interest is, 504 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 4: because a lot of them are what we call a 505 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 4: fender identified. 506 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 2: You know what's interesting, doctor Bethany, This is at the 507 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 2: sentencing where he has already pled guilty and he's being sentenced, 508 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 2: yet people are still deluded and insisting that he is 509 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 2: innocent and going so far is to make a death 510 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: threat on the mom. I mean, exactly what was the threat, 511 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix? What did the threat say to missus gonsolves the. 512 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 8: Threat of something to the effect that they know that 513 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 8: Coberger is innocent and threatening harm against the family. I mean, 514 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 8: the lowest of the low, but I've seen it in 515 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,239 Speaker 8: other cases as well. I go back to Delphi. I mean, 516 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 8: people are sick even when he's played guilty. He said 517 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 8: he's guilty, and they're saying no, not so. 518 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 2: It says, I'm sitting near you in court and watching 519 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 2: you is a joke. That's what they're saying to Kill's mom. 520 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 2: You know, Brian is innocent. That's not all the Messa 521 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 2: has said. It says, quote, I am in contact with 522 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 2: a lot of serial killers, including BTK buying torture, killed 523 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,959 Speaker 2: Dennis Raider, and I've been put in contact with a 524 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: want to be serial killer who is in Moscow, and 525 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 2: I've given him your address. 526 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,959 Speaker 8: Yeah, that threat should be taken seriously. 527 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 2: That is an overt threat. And what I don't get 528 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 2: to you, Chris mcdonnaugh. The same people that are responsible 529 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 2: for this week plea deal are investigating that threat. How 530 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 2: hard can it be to find out who sent a text? 531 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,719 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, this is one sick puppy, whoever this 532 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 5: individual is, and it is not very hard at all 533 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 5: to track that number down. A lot of people believe 534 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 5: that once you get a burner phone, that there's no 535 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 5: way of getting you know, a connection back to who 536 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 5: may have that in their position, But in fact there is, 537 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 5: and it's a system called hooster w asteer, and they 538 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 5: will find you. 539 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:10,239 Speaker 2: This as now we're learning about the true brutality of 540 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 2: these crimes. Why was that not released sooner? Because there 541 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 2: would have been a riot at the courthouse as a 542 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 2: result of these Please listen. 543 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 10: Many of the photos released are so gruesome they are 544 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 10: heavily blurred. In surveillance video from a neighboring house, time 545 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 10: is documented that appears to show Coberger driving around the 546 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 10: neighborhood for fifteen minutes before stopping. The video documents what 547 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 10: seems to be noise coming from eleven twenty two King 548 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 10: Road at four seventeen and forty seconds what sounds like 549 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 10: a thud, followed by a person crying, then a dog 550 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 10: begins barking. 551 00:33:52,880 --> 00:34:00,959 Speaker 2: Crime Stores with Nancy Grace, you just heard about video 552 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 2: that is now just being released. The video is accompanied 553 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: with audio, and it is actually painful to listen to 554 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 2: because you hear what sounds like a thud, which is 555 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 2: clearly one of the four victims falling to the ground. 556 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 2: Some enhanced versions, you hear a whimper, and then you 557 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 2: hear the dog Murphy began barking violently. I wonder what 558 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 2: Coburger's reaction would be hearing this. Listen, you know, Joe 559 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 2: Scott more and just hearing that. I'm only going to 560 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 2: play it once. I don't want to hear it over 561 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 2: and over and over. It's the sound of one of 562 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 2: the victims getting stabbed and falling to the ground. 563 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:15,720 Speaker 1: I don't know what's victim. 564 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 2: One of the victims, one of the female victims stabbed 565 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 2: twenty thirty times in the face. 566 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: Was it her? And you hear the dog going berserk. 567 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 2: It's just to put yourself at that moment knowing that's 568 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 2: what's happening, right then, it's excruciating to me. 569 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 9: Yes it is, Yeah, it is Nancy. And you know, 570 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,399 Speaker 9: there's been these little bits of information that have come 571 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 9: out that when you take them all in context, it 572 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 9: just it's like a gut punch for me when I 573 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 9: first watched the surveillance video, that raw video, there's not 574 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 9: much that makes me uncomfortable any longer at this point 575 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 9: in my life. This did, because when you get to 576 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 9: that mark on this recording where you know that this 577 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 9: is going down, it's quite chilling. But Nancy kind of 578 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,280 Speaker 9: a redirect on me. I got to tell you something. 579 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 9: Those images from inside of the house, and this is 580 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 9: coupled with this video. Nancy, when you look at Kayley's room. 581 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 9: There's a shot of the floor in there, and if 582 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 9: you look very carefully look straight down, see those droplets 583 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 9: of blood right there. Do you know what that means? 584 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 9: Those are passive blood droplets. He was standing there with 585 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 9: the knife in his hand, not moving. For each one 586 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,280 Speaker 9: of those droplets that you see, that's a passive drop 587 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 9: that comes off of the tip of that blade or 588 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 9: off of his clothing and just drips. Think about how 589 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 9: long he lingered there and just kind of observing what 590 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 9: he had done, thinking about it. Where do I go next? 591 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 9: What do I do? And yet I haven't seen obviously 592 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 9: the horrific images of but just that alone, coupled with 593 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 9: a Tom stamp on that video, that's rolling, you know, 594 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 9: the dynamic in this house. He's in control at that moment, Tom, 595 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 9: and he has just butchered these precious kids one by one, 596 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 9: and he's contemplating where to go next, what to do next? 597 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 2: You know, he says in Hendricks joining US investigative journalist 598 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 2: and author, everyone said, why didn't the dog bark? The 599 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,439 Speaker 2: dog barked his head off. 600 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 8: Yeah, And I think that barking, as I'm listening to it, 601 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 8: may have saved Dylan's life because at that point, I'm 602 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 8: thinking he thought, Okay, I got to get out of 603 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 8: here at this time. And as we're listening and watching Nancy, 604 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 8: what shocked me as well listened to Steve Gonzalves talk 605 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 8: about I guess I automatically think they take the families 606 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 8: aside and say, Okay, we're going to release this now. No, 607 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 8: they're seeing this on the news as we are, And 608 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 8: he said, I believe that everyone should have information, but 609 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 8: of course not the most gruesome photos of their children. 610 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 8: And it's part for the course. I mean, this family's 611 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 8: been through hell and they continue to be blindsided by 612 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 8: all of this, and they have to go through foy 613 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 8: requests in court if they want to block anything from 614 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 8: being released. It's just making everything more difficult and horrific 615 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 8: for the families. 616 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 2: As you just heard investigative reporter Susan Hendrix state, all 617 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 2: of these horrific photos, videos, audios are being released without 618 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:34,760 Speaker 2: the famili's consent, just like the plea deal was reached 619 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 2: without the famili's consent, all done in secret. Why when 620 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 2: things are done in secret, that makes me very suspicious about. 621 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,839 Speaker 1: The motive to justice. 622 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 2: Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author 623 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,280 Speaker 2: and star of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Jo Scott, 624 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 2: I want to talk about what we are learning regarding 625 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 2: the brutal of these crimes. Every time there's another data dump, 626 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 2: it just gets worse. And I imagine there's a lot 627 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,479 Speaker 2: more that hasn't been released yet. 628 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 9: Yeah, there has been, and you know, I think that 629 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 9: I think that kind of the tranch of images that 630 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 9: have been released to this point, maybe less than two hundred. 631 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,439 Speaker 9: I would suspect in forensics, Nancy, when we're documented seeing 632 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 9: and you well know this, there's going to be thousands 633 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 9: of these images that have been taken all over the 634 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:36,359 Speaker 9: course of this thing. But what we can establish here, 635 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,439 Speaker 9: I think is a pattern of movement on the part 636 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 9: of this perpetrator as they moved through this residence, killing 637 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,879 Speaker 9: one by one these kids. That's the most striking thing. 638 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 9: And look, listen, I know the family doesn't want these 639 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 9: photos out there, but I have to give high marks 640 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 9: to the police in this bit. They're in control of 641 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 9: these images because they have I think, strategically released them, 642 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 9: as opposed to these things just coming out on the 643 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 9: internet and being dumped all at once, and this is 644 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 9: kind of a slow slow burn. I think that we'll 645 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 9: probably see more. They're in control of these images. I 646 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 9: think there's a lot more information that we would all 647 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,720 Speaker 9: like to know. But you have to think about the families. 648 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,439 Speaker 9: At the end of the day, they are the kids 649 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 9: are gone, but the families remain, and they are the 650 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 9: true victims. Now that the kids are gone, they are 651 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 9: the true victims, and they're going to be paying the 652 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 9: price for this, for the remainder of their data, and. 653 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 2: Now they can think about all the weirdos pouring over 654 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,280 Speaker 2: the graphic videos and photos of their children. 655 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: Listen. 656 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 10: Shocking crime scene photos taking hours after the massacre shows 657 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 10: a horrifying scene. Blood splatter clearly visible on the walls 658 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 10: and doors, blood drops and cast off photographed on the 659 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:56,439 Speaker 10: hardwood floors, and blood on the victim's betting doctor Bethany. 660 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 2: Marshall joining a psychoanalyst. How many times do you think 661 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 2: Brian Cooburger poured over these photos? 662 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: And why? 663 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 4: Oh, he poured over them but continuously, as are the 664 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 4: want to be Coburgers who are going to court, you know, Nancy, 665 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 4: These Coburger want to be is the reason they sent 666 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 4: the death threat is that the mighty king has fallen 667 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 4: and now they are stepping in to take his place. 668 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 4: That's one point. The other point is the indignities that 669 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 4: these families are suffering. There's one aspect we haven't talked about, 670 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 4: and that is the fact that Ethan's throat was slashed, 671 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 4: but the other girls were stabbed multiple times. This tells 672 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 4: me that Ethan, that Coberger, wanted to get Ethan, the 673 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 4: only male in the house, out of the way. He 674 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 4: was just dispensing with him. He didn't get the same 675 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 4: sadistic pleasure stabbing him multiple times. He wanted to do 676 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 4: that to the girls, just like he's throwing all the 677 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 4: rivals the and in the neighborhood under the bus. This 678 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 4: is one sick man. Nancy. His pull like his guiding 679 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,839 Speaker 4: principle in cel as you said earlier, like principle get 680 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 4: the other men out of the way so I can 681 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 4: have access to the women who are rejecting me, and 682 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 4: now I hate them. I'm going behind bars. I am 683 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 4: going to whine, I'm going to beg I'm going to complain. 684 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,479 Speaker 4: But all my little minions are coming into court. They're 685 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 4: stepping in after me because Nancy there are a lot 686 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 4: of other Coburgers behind him. And that's what worries me 687 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 4: about these crime scene photos. Not only is it disturbing 688 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 4: and retraumatizing to the families, it's stimulating to other perpetrators. 689 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 4: They have a lot of material in their hands now 690 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 4: to incite them to commit similar crimes. 691 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: Hey, what you just. 692 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 2: Said is very disturbing in that to you, Chris McDonough, 693 00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 2: we saw a coburger pouring over prior serial killers. 694 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: He was especially obsessed. 695 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 2: With Bundy and I think bt K his life works 696 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 2: was studying what they did. 697 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 1: And how they got caught. 698 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 2: And now, don't you know, serial killer wannabes all over 699 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 2: the world are saying, note to self, don't leave knife 700 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 2: sheath behind. And what they learned from him about disposing 701 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 2: of the weapon, stalking the victims ahead of time, pre 702 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 2: planning and pre planning and pre planning, and only now 703 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 2: we're learning about the brutality of the murders. Just the 704 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,320 Speaker 2: fact that what doctor Bethany just said, this is giving 705 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 2: a primer how to to other serial killer wannabes. 706 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, Nancy, And isn't that disturbing in of itself? 707 00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 5: And let's not also forget that he has access to 708 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 5: all of those digital photographs of that crime steam because 709 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 5: the defense and the defendant get access to all of 710 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,760 Speaker 5: that information. So if he's even thinking about an appeal, 711 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 5: let's think about this for a moment. He gets to 712 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 5: take that to the Department of Corrections and have that 713 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 5: in his cell as legal documents. And that's disturbing in 714 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 5: of itself because he's reliving those very night and that 715 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 5: very crime while incarcerated. That's disturbing in of itself. Like 716 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 5: Doc Morgan was talking on that photograph right there, he 717 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,799 Speaker 5: stood there and that knife from that blood groove on 718 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 5: that knife, that drop is a ninety degree what we 719 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,239 Speaker 5: call ninety degree blood spatter. If you look at the 720 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 5: other photograph, that is our curial spray where Ethan's throat 721 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 5: was cut and every heartbeat created that pattern of blood 722 00:44:58,800 --> 00:44:59,359 Speaker 5: on the wall. 723 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,239 Speaker 2: Dobey, defense attorney. Why should Coburger get to keep these 724 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 2: crime scene photos and pour over them and delight in 725 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 2: them even sexually behind mars? 726 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:11,880 Speaker 1: Why should he get that. 727 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 6: When the case is over, they're allowed to have it. 728 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 6: And the reason why is it's their file. A councilor 729 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 6: does not own the file where the mere custodian of it, 730 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 6: the guardian of it while their case is pending. 731 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 7: But afterwards it is theirs to have. 732 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 6: Unfortunately, that is the law, and in fact, if you 733 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 6: don't give it to them, the attorney can be in 734 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:34,399 Speaker 6: trouble with the state bar. 735 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:39,320 Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall, this is so wrong that these photos, 736 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 2: graphic photos of the victims are being released without the families. Okay, 737 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 2: and Coburger gets the photos. Can you imagine what he's doing. 738 00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: With the photos. And they're much worse than what we're 739 00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:57,319 Speaker 1: showing right now. 740 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 2: Their photos are all the dead bodies lying prone. 741 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 1: It's much worse than what we're showing on air nancies. 742 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 4: These photos are like a serial killer's pornography. Let's think 743 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 4: about the MO of these types of crimes. It is 744 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 4: to inflict maximum cruelty in order to achieve sexual pleasure. 745 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 4: That is the MO. Sadism is a perversion. People need 746 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,799 Speaker 4: to know that it is a perversion. Voyeurism looking through 747 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:33,879 Speaker 4: the windows, that is a perversion. So now this perverse, sadistic, 748 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 4: want to be serial killer has the crime scene photos. 749 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 4: What is he going to do? He's going to sit 750 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 4: in jail and masturbate all day long, and we've talked 751 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 4: about the families, the indignities inflicted upon them. They know this. 752 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 4: They're not stupid. They're listening to the news. They've studied psychopaths. 753 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 4: They know what's happening with their children's photos, crime scene photos. 754 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,840 Speaker 4: They have to live with this for the rest of 755 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:02,360 Speaker 4: their lives. 756 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 2: Noyle, tell me exactly what's going on one of our 757 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 2: one of the roommates who's passed out and she's drung 758 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 2: class and shall not wake me up? 759 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 4: Okay. 760 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 1: Oh, and they saw some man in their house house night. 761 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, his man. 762 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:19,760 Speaker 4: Are you in the patient? 763 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 5: Okay? 764 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,120 Speaker 4: I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around. 765 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 8: Can I just tell you what happened pretty much? 766 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 4: What is going on currently? If someone passed out right. 767 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:33,400 Speaker 8: Now, I don't really know what pretty much thorim Okay. 768 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 4: So I need to know what's going on right now? 769 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 11: If someone has passed out, can you find that out now? 770 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,279 Speaker 4: I'll come come on with musical check. 771 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:42,000 Speaker 12: We have to. 772 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,840 Speaker 2: Will the fads intervene and see the federal death penalty? 773 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,719 Speaker 2: Will Coberger continue to wind me, me, me, me me, 774 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 2: because the other inmates are harassing him behind bars through 775 00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:01,600 Speaker 2: the air vents. What more will we learn about the 776 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 2: night these four students were brutally murdered, not in their sleep. 777 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,760 Speaker 2: We wait as just as unfolds, and now we remember 778 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 2: an American hero, Deputy Sheriff ned Bird Wait County Sheriffs, 779 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 2: North Carolina, shot in the line of duty after thirteen 780 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:28,600 Speaker 2: years in Ellie, leaving behind grieving sister Mignon American hero 781 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:37,280 Speaker 2: Deputy Sheriff ned Bird Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend.