1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: A hidden Vatican document emerges undermining Pope Francis's rationale to 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: limit the Latin Mass. What did the bishops of the 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: world really think about the tridentine? Right? 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 2: The Prayerful Posse? 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: Next, welcome to this Arroyo Grande series, The Prayerful Posse. 6 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: Let's convene the Posse joining me now, Father Gerald Murray, 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 1: canon lawyer and priest of the Archdiocese of New York, 8 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: and of course Robert Royal, the editor in chief of 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: the Catholic Thing dot Org. I'm Raymond Arroyo. Go subscribe 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: to the Arroyo Grande channel now. We don't want you 11 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: to miss an episode of the show. And of course 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: you can also find the podcast on iHeart, Apple, Spotify or. 13 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 2: Our YouTube channel Arroyo Grande Show. Gents, we had to 14 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 2: hop on. 15 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: We weren't even going to do a show this week 16 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: with July fourth, but when independent journalist Diane Montga obtained 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: this survey that Pope Francis commissioned asking the world's bishops 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: their experience with the Latin Mass in their dioceses, I 19 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: thought we had to get on. 20 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 2: Now. 21 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: Everybody will recall they were asking what the bishop's thought 22 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: of Pope Benedict because he had expanded the celebration of 23 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: the traditional Roman rite. Now this was back in twenty twenty. 24 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: Pope Francis used the alleged results to bolster his twenty 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: twenty one decree, which severely limited the Latin mass. And 26 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: that's not just the language. It's an entire rite. It's 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: not just that, you know, some people think, oh, it's 28 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: just a language instead of Spanish or English. No, no, 29 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: it's a whole right, and it's very different in some ways. Well, 30 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: now it turns out the results of that survey were 31 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: the opposite of what we were told. Pope France has 32 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: claimed that the questionnaire quote persuades me of the need 33 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: to intervene, but in fact, the document obtained by Diane 34 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: Montga summarizes the global bishop's response this way. Quote the 35 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: majority of bishops who responded to the questionnaire and who 36 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: have generously and intelligently implemented some morem pontificum that was 37 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: Pope Benedict's permission to spread the Latin mess and celebrate 38 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: it widely, ultimately expresses satisfaction with it. End quote, Father, 39 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: why did the Pope and the Vatican lie about this? I? 40 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: Can only speculate Raymond, but it certainly fits a pattern 41 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 3: where the Pope decides on the course of action and 42 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 3: then enlists a group of what he thinks is going 43 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 3: to be sympathetic acolytes to give him the answer that 44 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 3: he wanted. You recall the first Senate on the Family 45 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 3: did not go along with his proposals regarding community for 46 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 3: divorce remarried, so he changed the cast. The second Senate 47 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: on the Family had a different group of people voting, 48 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 3: and they voted for what the Pope wanted. In this case, 49 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 3: it was a survey, and the survey results did not 50 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 3: match the Pope's hostility to the traditional Latin mess I 51 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 3: don't think the Pope ever thought that this information was 52 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 3: going to become public. So then he makes a statement saying, 53 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 3: I'm persuaded by the bishops of the world that this 54 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 3: is a problem. It wasn't a problem. So I'm glad 55 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 3: this came out because I remember at the time saying 56 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 3: to myself, wait a minute, where's the mass number of bishops, 57 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 3: you know, going on TV and radio saying we got 58 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 3: to stamp out the traditional Admit it wasn't there. My 59 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 3: experience here in New York was the cardinal was very 60 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 3: happy that the Latin mask people were able to be 61 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 3: accommodated at different parishes. 62 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: Bob, the fact is the Pope doesn't need the agreement 63 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: of all the bishops to make a decision. I mean 64 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,839 Speaker 1: we should say that up front, So why spin what 65 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: advice they were giving him and the feedback, the organic 66 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: and natural feedback about how the Latin mass was affecting 67 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: dioceses and the people in it across the world. 68 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, he was careful when he issued the document. Artsionis 69 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 4: custodis not to make this like a Plubis side. It 70 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 4: was his own decision to do this, But it's clear 71 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 4: that what he tried to do. And you know, there were, 72 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 4: of course a few bishops who objected, because there are 73 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 4: people who are a problem and you know around the world, 74 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 4: whatever right you're going to be using, there's going to 75 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 4: be some people who are going to object and make 76 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 4: trouble for the local bishop. But the remarkable thing about 77 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 4: the summary document is how much it I just reread 78 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 4: it before we came out on the air, how much 79 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 4: it really underscores how successful the adjustments that Pope Benedic 80 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 4: the sixteenth made that the people actually were happy. Bishops 81 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 4: were starting to be happy about this. You know, it's 82 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 4: very very different than we were led to believe. And 83 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 4: I think we have to say that Diane must have 84 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 4: you know, we all know Diane. We trust her. She's 85 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 4: a very very careful reporter. What she's found must be true. 86 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 4: Because the document has been out. We're recording on July second, 87 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 4: it's already been out for over twenty four hours. People 88 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 4: have asked the Vatican to respond whether this is an 89 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 4: authentic document or not. They haven't denied it, so there 90 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 4: must be some response being prepared. And maybe this is 91 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 4: a way for now Leo to make some changes and 92 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 4: go back to a more you know, a more generous 93 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 4: approach to people across the board. No one's being forced 94 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 4: to go to a Latin mass and no one's being 95 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 4: forced to go into a Novisorto mass. So it's very 96 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 4: regrettable that the Pope Friensis did this, and a lot 97 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 4: of people I think are very much upset. They were 98 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 4: upset with him while he was alive. Now they're except 99 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 4: they're upset with him now that he's dead. 100 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, father, I mean, look, the dicastro of the doctrine 101 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,239 Speaker 1: of faith. I mean, when you read the thing, there's 102 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: this quote. The bishops most attuned to this matter observed 103 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: that the older form of the liturgy is a treasure 104 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: of the Church to be safeguarded and preserved. It constitutes 105 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: a good to find unity with the past, to know 106 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: how to advance along a path of coherent development and progress, 107 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: and to meet as far as possible the needs of 108 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: the faithful. What was the problem with that, Father? That 109 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: was the recommendation by the way of the Congregation for 110 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: the Doctrine of Things. Who were collecting the reaction from 111 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: the bishops around the world. 112 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, this is an example of the you know, 113 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 3: the people in the field closest to the sheep, they were, 114 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,799 Speaker 3: you know, knowing what the sheep wanted. And it really 115 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 3: was an example of a consultation that brought a result 116 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 3: that wasn't desired. So you know, the interesting thing, of course, 117 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 3: is the Pope never published this himself. The survey included 118 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 3: comments from bishops. The surveys were kept secret, although, as 119 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: you may remember, maybe about a year after TRADITSI and 120 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 3: as Diane I was able to obtain some of those 121 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 3: survey answers from bishops and the quotes were really basically 122 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 3: supporting what now has been revealed. So, you know, there's 123 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: a whole school of thought in the Church which is 124 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 3: basically called, you know, the discontinuity school, which means anything 125 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: that came before Vatican two is an obstacle to the 126 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 3: Church accomplishing her mission at the present time. Pope Benedict 127 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 3: John Paul this and rejected that they were into a 128 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 3: continuity interpretation and the Latin the success of the traditional 129 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 3: Latin Mass bolstered that continuity. In other words, a new 130 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 3: Church wasn't born in Rome when the Vatican Council closed. 131 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 3: It was the same Catholic Church as before. There were 132 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 3: some different things being proposed in terms of how we're 133 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 3: going to approach the modern world. But the idea that 134 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 3: reverent liturgy no longer has a role to play in 135 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 3: converting the world. The survey reveals that it does, because 136 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 3: the bishops saw that people were responding. 137 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, but Bob, this runs to the heart of the matter. 138 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: The argument at the time was that this was a 139 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: radicalizing side show of a liturgy, a break with unity 140 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: that was creating hatred of Vatican too. But the Congregation 141 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: for the Doctrine of Faith in this report. The quote 142 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: is this The ecclesiological dimension of the hermoneutic of continuity 143 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: with tradition and with a coherent renewal and development has 144 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: not yet been fully embraced by some bishops. However, where 145 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: it has been received and implemented, it is already bearing fruit, 146 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: the most visible of which is. 147 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 2: In the liturgy. End quote. 148 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: They said it renewed the liturgy when it was implemented, 149 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: So why suppress that? And here's the big question, Bob, 150 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: where's the sinidelity. 151 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: In all this? 152 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, it's a sinidelity that's ideologically oriented what we 153 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,679 Speaker 4: got with the previous pope. I mean, it's very clear 154 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 4: that he knew that he didn't want there to be 155 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 4: this continuing element within the church. I mean, just as 156 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 4: there are extremists who wanted to reject the nous Ordo Mass, 157 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 4: there are people who seem to think that the old 158 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 4: Latin Mass, which Benedict properly said what was sacred in 159 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 4: the past, cannot become unsacred. It has to remain so 160 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 4: for those of us who are in this one Catholic 161 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 4: Church that has existed over two thousand years. And so 162 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 4: it's not surprising that Pope Francis went in and highlighted 163 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 4: the stuff that really was not very much prominent in 164 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 4: the original documents, that he he knew what outcome he 165 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 4: wanted and he didn't get it when the survey occurred. 166 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 4: And by the way, if you go back and look 167 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 4: at those remarks by individual bishops, a lot of them 168 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 4: are specified San Francisco probably, Archbishop of Corleone, or Baltimore, 169 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 4: Archbishop Glori, and others like that. So it's possible to 170 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 4: identify exact experience here in the United States and presumably 171 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 4: elsewhere in the world where people found that there was 172 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 4: no problem and when the bishop engaged the people properly 173 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 4: and didn't try to tell them that they were they 174 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 4: were way off in left field or maybe right field. 175 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 4: In this case, they got along very well, and this 176 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 4: was utterly unreported on It says if these results of 177 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 4: this survey were that the situation was so appalling, and 178 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,719 Speaker 4: Francis said he was saddened and he was preoccupied by 179 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 4: all the results that he had to intervene. I think 180 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 4: that this is I'm sorry I'd have to say this 181 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 4: about any pope. It's an outright lie and it's shameful. 182 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: Wow, Pope Francis wrote in twenty twenty one that he 183 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: limited the tridentine right quote because an opportunity offered by 184 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: Saint Pope John Paul the second, and with even greater 185 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: magnanimity by Benedict the sixteenth, was quote exploited to widen 186 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure 187 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: the church block her path and exposure to the peril 188 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: of division end quote? Was the teen right a source 189 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: of division? I mean, this report actually decried what would 190 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: eventually would happen. 191 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: But I'll let you react to that first. 192 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the Congregation of Doctor and the Faith didn't 193 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 3: think it was because they were saying that where it 194 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 3: was applied by bishops who took an interest in this 195 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 3: pastoral need that had produced great fruits. The fact that 196 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: the division, I'm always amazed because when you had the 197 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 3: Latin Mass being permitted in your average parish, it unified 198 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,479 Speaker 3: the parish because those people no longer going to independent 199 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 3: chapels or chapels run by the Society Saint Pius the tenth. 200 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 3: They were now participating in diocese and masses at diocese 201 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 3: and parishes and as regards the unity of the Church. 202 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,479 Speaker 3: Remember what Pope Benedict said and some more in Pontificum. 203 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 3: He wanted mutual enrichment between the New Mass and the 204 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 3: Old Mass. And that was going on because you know, 205 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 3: part of the experience of the traditional Latin Mass is 206 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 3: Gregorian chant, so and then the musical heritage of the 207 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 3: Latin Church, the Western Church, Renaissance polyphony and the like. 208 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 3: And it's quite clear there's a demand for that in 209 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 3: the world and in the Church. And that was highlighted 210 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 3: because how many of those you know, monastic chant CDs 211 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 3: were selling, you know, hundreds of thousands of copies. Well, 212 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 3: you don't need to buy a CD when they have, 213 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: you know, the availability in your local parish. So the 214 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 3: reality is the Pope was hostile to this form of worship, 215 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 3: and he tried to enlist the bishops of the world 216 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 3: to support him. They didn't, and then he basically said 217 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: that they did. 218 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: That's said a curious thing that when you read this 219 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: report closely, as I did, the bishops who refused to 220 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: allow the Latin Mass considered it dangerous. They wanted it suppressed. 221 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: But the Congregation found that Spanish speaking regions and the 222 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: Italian bishops were the most reticent to allow the Old Mass. 223 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 2: Why do you think that is? 224 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 4: Well, they didn't say redicent, they said they weren't interested 225 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 4: in all that budget. And I have to say, as 226 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 4: a kind of an amateur at these things, that when 227 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 4: I go to a mass that's in Italian or in Spanish, 228 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 4: it's closer to Latin. And maybe because the difference isn't 229 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 4: that large that for some people it just dispersed whatever 230 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 4: interest that they might have had in the older Latin. 231 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 2: Oh, that's kind of an interesting point. I hadn't thought 232 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: of that far. 233 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 4: But I mean, look, the report actually predicts accurately what 234 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 4: is going to happen. The couple of bishops said, look, 235 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 4: if you reverse this, it's going to make the situation 236 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 4: even worse. And that's precisely what happened. But suddenly this 237 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 4: thing's sprung up and instead of people coming together, they 238 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 4: were at one another's throats. And it didn't have to 239 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 4: be that way, except if you thought that somehow the 240 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 4: Old Latin Mass was a danger, as you rightly quote, 241 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 4: and the application of basically a weed killer is what 242 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 4: happened against the Old Latin Mass, where you're told you 243 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 4: can't have it in a parish, you can't list it 244 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 4: in a bulletin. I mean, this was so clearly an 245 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 4: attempt to wipe it out that you can only think 246 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 4: that there was some animus against this here. And by 247 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 4: the way, I would just like to put on the 248 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 4: record this point. The Eastern Church has had a unified 249 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 4: liturgy basically, you know, for fifteen hundred years. Does it 250 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 4: have unity? Because if there's only one right, the various 251 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 4: jurisdictions are always at one another's throats. A liturgy in 252 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 4: and of itself, a single liturgy in and of itself, 253 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 4: isn't a guarantee that people are going to be unified. 254 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 4: Circumstances in which we find ourselves in the church now 255 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 4: in twenty twenty five, we need to let a few 256 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 4: flowers bloom out there, and you know, not the craziert stuff, 257 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 4: but some stuff that connects us with our tradition and 258 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 4: maybe recovers, as Pope Leo has been saying about the 259 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 4: Eastern Rite, recovers some things that have been lost in 260 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 4: the West and that really draw people in, draw young 261 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 4: people in, and energize the faith again. It's it's a 262 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 4: win win to do this. 263 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: Father you got to take a crack at what Bob said. 264 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, about the Spanish and Italian thing first, which I 265 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: didn't I didn't even think about that, But that does 266 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: make sense that it's, you know, it's a latinate language. 267 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: Well, I'll put another perspective on it, which supports Bob's point. 268 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 3: The Latin mass was most popular in anglosphere world England, 269 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 3: United States, Australia, and it was popular in countries where 270 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 3: secularism has been aggressive, such as France and also in Germany, 271 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 3: which is a Protestant country. So countries where Catholic identity 272 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 3: had been maintained over the centuries because of an adherence 273 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 3: to the Roman faith and the Roman form of worship, 274 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: people were very very sensitive to and take the question 275 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 3: of Archibisipal of Reverend France. He saw that the removal 276 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 3: or the suppression of the Latin mass fit in with 277 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 3: the French revolutionary plan to desacralize public life, and they 278 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 3: didn't like it. And in the English speaking world, you know, 279 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 3: the aim of Cranmer and the Protestant Reformers was to 280 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 3: get rid of the Latin Mass. So and in the world, 281 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 3: you know, the Spanish world did have its brush with Freemasonry, 282 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 3: and there was a problem in Spain, but largely in 283 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 3: Latin American Italy, Catholic culture just continues and when the 284 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 3: Pope says we do something, we do it. So yeah, 285 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 3: and it is closer, of course, an expression to Latin. 286 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 3: So I think these are points to consider, and that's 287 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: I think, sadly something that Pope France has never understood. 288 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 3: The experience he had in Argentina was a slice of 289 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: Catholic life. And to say that the rest of the 290 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 3: world who doesn't go along with that kind of approach 291 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 3: is somehow disunified, that's just a mistake. 292 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 293 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: Well, it's shocking when you read this report and the 294 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: recommendation of the Doctrine of Faith is this, I'm going 295 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: to quote it. The majority of bishops who responded to 296 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: the questionnaire state that making legislative changes to some morum 297 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: pontificum that was Benedict's permission to celebrate the Mass would 298 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: cause more harm than good end quote. Pope France has 299 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: just ignored that bomb. 300 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, and I think that the reason we've actually 301 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 4: predicted this in the past, we spoke about how we 302 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 4: were mystified that there was apparently this outrage from bishops 303 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 4: and whatnot. It was a select of reading. I mean, 304 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 4: you have to really go in with a desire, like 305 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 4: with a fine tooth, come to find the bishops who 306 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 4: are actually objecting and what they're objecting to. Is interesting 307 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 4: that that in snippets that Diane was able to find 308 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 4: that the Archbishop of San Francisco, which is to say Corleone, said, 309 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 4: where there have been problems in his archdiocese, it's not 310 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 4: because of the right as such, it's because of people 311 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 4: who haven't been instructed. And how this all fits together 312 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 4: with Vatican two. And you know, you can live with 313 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 4: pluralism in the church if your own, your own take 314 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 4: on how you want to live your life is being 315 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 4: respected by the rest of the Church, then it's a 316 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 4: live and let live situation. We go along to get 317 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 4: along with one another. And just as long as we 318 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 4: don't step outside of orthodoxy, we can have divers expressions. 319 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 4: We already have it in the different rights that exist 320 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 4: in the church. 321 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: Well, and this is the key point. We've talked about 322 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: this for years now. When you go to these masses 323 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: and I go to them, I go to them in 324 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: other cities, I go to them in foreign countries, the 325 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: vast majority drawn to this traditional Latin Mass. 326 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 2: And again it's not just the language. 327 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: There are movements and rights, there's their prayers that are 328 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: omitted from the new Mass, their silence in an otherworldly 329 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: sandsum with the chant and the smells and the bells. 330 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: It is transformative and I think transportative for young people. 331 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: Here's what the CDF reports said. This is from twenty 332 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: twenty one. 333 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 2: Quote. 334 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: A constant observation made by the bishops is it is 335 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: young people who are discovering and choosing this older form 336 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: of the liturgy. The majority of the stable groups present 337 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: in the Catholic world are composed of young people, often 338 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: converts to the Catholic faith and those returning after a 339 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 1: time away from the church and the sacraments. 340 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 2: They're drawn by. 341 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: The sacredness, seriousness, and solemnity of the liturgy. What strikes 342 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: the most, also amid a society that is excessively noisy 343 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: and verbose, is the rediscovery of silence within sacred actions 344 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: and restrained and essential words, preaching that it is faithful 345 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: to the Church's doctrine, the beauty of liturgical life, chant, 346 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: and the dignity of the celebration. Quote A seamless hole. 347 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: That is deeply attractive. 348 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: Father. 349 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: Why would Pope Francis looking at those young people, converts, 350 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: the future, people who are returning to the sacraments, why 351 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: would he just say, no, we don't want any more 352 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: of that, we don't want that any longer. 353 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 3: Well, again, we can just go to what the Pope 354 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 3: himself said, how often he used this expression backwardists people 355 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 3: who had psychological difficulties and were seeking security and grasping 356 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 3: on to what they imagined were exterior forms of solidity. 357 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 3: I think the Pope had a deep hostility to those 358 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 3: who were not in agreement with his approach, and it's 359 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 3: amazing to me. You would criticize, They would say, the 360 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 3: people who like the traditional Latin masks don't like the 361 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 3: new mass, and that's unacceptable. But they themselves are the 362 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 3: sponsors of the Amazon right, the green mass isn't good 363 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 3: enough for them. They have to add other new elements. 364 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 3: And in fact, that's one of the unspoken realities of 365 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 3: white people. Like the traditional at mess. It doesn't change. 366 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 3: It's predictable, you know what was it? C. S. Lewis 367 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 3: said that literagy should feel like, you know, a comfortable 368 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 3: old shoe. You put it on and it doesn't give 369 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 3: you any problems. You know, you have to understand the 370 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 3: liturgy that require years of study and prayer. But you 371 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 3: know the cycle for princess, the cycle of readings in 372 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 3: the Old mess it's yearly, so you can remember, oh, yeah, 373 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 3: last year I heard that gospel, right, and then and 374 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 3: then the feast days and all the rest. Now, let's 375 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 3: get down to what you're questioning about young people. It's 376 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 3: a grave mistake to interpret youth with a revolutionary spirit, 377 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 3: and therefore to view people who don't have a revolutionary 378 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 3: spirit are not really young people. You know their problem cases. 379 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: And these are the young. 380 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, the backwards and you know this again sad to say, 381 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 3: it's Marxist interpretation. Marxists believe in historical inevitability, and therefore 382 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 3: young people who buy into that, they're just cooperating. What's 383 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 3: going to happen anyway. The rest of the people are 384 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 3: obstructionists and backwards, and we have to put them aside. 385 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 3: But Bob's father is a referenced before. 386 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: When the church is going broke, when you can't fill 387 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: the pews, this is a suicidal decision that and I 388 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: think it's one that befalls any group that thinks it's 389 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: that attempts to replace its audience with an imagined audience. 390 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: Is you always pay the penalty for that. We see 391 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: this in film, we see this in corporations. You can't 392 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: impose your will on the audience. They want what they want, 393 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: you have to give them what they want. 394 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the one thing that struck a chord 395 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 4: with me in the objections that some of the bishops 396 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 4: had was that the vocations in their dioceses were not 397 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 4: going to the diocesan seminary, but they were going to 398 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 4: the traditional Latin Mass seminaries. And look, the way that 399 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 4: you solve that problem is you make the Latin Mass 400 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 4: available within the diocese. And now that the if they're getting, 401 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 4: they're getting big bumpons in locations across the street. Well, 402 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 4: you bring some of those guy guys back because you 403 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 4: can see that that's the growing end of what the 404 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 4: church is. 405 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: Well, Bob, the CDF report did suggest at some point, 406 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: I don't have a quote in front of me, but 407 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: it did suggest that both the old and the New 408 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: Right should be taught in seminary. But my guess is 409 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: people feared that because then you'd have real competition, and 410 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: you know what the hearts of these young priests would gravitate. 411 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 4: Look, I mean we're still unfortunately in the Church, we're 412 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 4: still wrestling with one another over the interpretation of Vatican too. 413 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 4: And it's clear that Pope Francis had this if we 414 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 4: want to use the political term, a more progressive view 415 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 4: of what came out of Vatican Two. His father was 416 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 4: rightly saying he used a lot of very disparaging remarks 417 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 4: about priests and lay people and young people who seem 418 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 4: to be attached to something solid. But look, when you're 419 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 4: in a boat and the storm is all around you, 420 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 4: you want something solid to hold on to you. You 421 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,160 Speaker 4: want to be able to steer in a certain direction. 422 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 4: And in fact, Vatican two I never get tired of 423 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 4: saying this proposed two principles. People forget this, but the 424 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 4: one principle of which you could regard as kind of 425 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 4: look as not progressive. But I would say forward looking. 426 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 4: Isn't jornamento, you know, updating to the new Jordnal, the 427 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 4: new day. But it also recommended what it called russourceman, 428 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 4: going back to the sources of Christianity, the early Gospels, 429 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 4: the Great for the early church fathers, Augustine, Aquinas, etc. 430 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 4: And so you get this dynamic that it's moving in 431 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 4: two directions. It's not only one direction that you go 432 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 4: back to the roots to find out how do I 433 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 4: deal with these maybe unprecedented circumstances. And if you suppress 434 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 4: one side of it, if you suppress that going back 435 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 4: to the foundation and the roots of the church, you're 436 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 4: going to be flailing. And that's what's happened to a 437 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 4: lot of people. And that's why young young people in particular, 438 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 4: who are setting out in their lives are looking for 439 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 4: something more as they approach the future Father. 440 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: The report ends with a line from Pope Benedict in 441 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and again we never saw this report, 442 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,959 Speaker 1: but here's the quote. Lest the seamless tunic of Christ 443 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: be further torn, everyone has a place in the church. 444 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: Every person, without exception, should be able to feel at 445 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: home and never rejected. God, who loves all men and 446 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: women and wishes none to be lost, and trusts us 447 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: with this mission by appointing as shepherds of his sheep, 448 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: we can only thank him for the honor and the 449 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: trust he's placed in us. Let us therefore strive always 450 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 1: to be servants of unity. Why do you think Pope 451 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: Francis and even bishops to this day reject that idea 452 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: of being servants to unity and serving the natural desires 453 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: of young people and older people who want this sacred 454 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: style of worship and right. 455 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 3: I think Pope Francis and those who support his program 456 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 3: have a different definition of what unity means for them. 457 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 3: It's not the unity that's based on the common form 458 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 3: of worship in Christendom, you know, for over you know, 459 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 3: a thousand plus years. 460 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 2: Uh. 461 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 3: The unity was a new Vatican two understanding of the 462 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 3: relationship of the Church and the world. And as Bob said, 463 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 3: this gets back to an even better, even more fundamental 464 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 3: issue is the discussion of how Vatican Two was implemented 465 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 3: in not only the field of liturgy, but in theology 466 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 3: and philosophy. Because there's a good argument to be made 467 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 3: that the New Mass was not faithful to the vision 468 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 3: of the cart of the Council Fathers. In other words, 469 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 3: the complete rejection of Latin, the adding of new eucharistic prayers, 470 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 3: the reform of the calendar, the getting rid of you know, octaves. 471 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 3: You know, there's no more octave of the Holy Spirit, 472 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 3: expulsion of chant, expulsion of chant. They got rid of 473 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 3: Ember days. You know, the Lenten season began earlier than 474 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 3: ash Wednesday. Uh, you know the cover of statues. Now, 475 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 3: some of these elements were regained over time, but there 476 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 3: was a whole set of things that were just categorically 477 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 3: removed because the counts, the committee that was in charge 478 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 3: of revised liturgy, invented their own criterion and Pope Paul 479 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 3: the Six went along with it. And then that's where 480 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 3: the debate got started. And that's a legitimate debate. There's 481 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 3: no disloyalty to any pope to say, can we look 482 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 3: at what was done, how it was justified, and how 483 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 3: it result the implement By the way, you remember when 484 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 3: they got rid of coke, they called it new coke 485 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 3: and it failed, And what did they come up with? 486 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 3: Classic coke? Right, Well, they dropped the classic because eventually 487 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 3: people just got back to coke. But you know, the 488 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 3: whole idea was you've got to be sensitive to the 489 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 3: results of your actions because the actions are directed toward it, 490 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 3: not yourself, but to a whole group of people, meaning 491 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 3: the faithful in the pews. They weren't sensitive to it. 492 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 3: And that's where Benedict and John Paul the second I think, 493 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 3: really did great things, and that Poe Francis just implemented 494 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 3: his view of life and then claimed that others supported it. 495 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 3: It some did, but this report reveals not the people 496 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 3: he had told us reported it. 497 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 2: Well. 498 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: That that's the big the big takeaway is the majority 499 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,199 Speaker 1: of bishops were actually with the Latin Mass people. They 500 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: weren't adversaries. But Bob Father brings up a very interesting 501 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: point there. Pope Benedict by holding up what he called 502 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: the extraordinary right, the old Tridentine right and the New Mass, 503 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: putting them side by side, you see the deficiencies in 504 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: one or the other. And it did invite the people 505 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: to see what was and what is and to make 506 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: their own determination of what should be. 507 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it was it was an effort at healing. 508 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 4: It wasn't it wasn't suppressing, you know, either one side 509 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 4: or the other. He was giving people freedom. It's ironic 510 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 4: that in the papacy of Francis, who tried to decentralize, 511 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 4: I mean, he made a number of decisions in which 512 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 4: he seemed to want to decentralize power away for it 513 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 4: in that what in fact, and by the end of 514 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 4: his papacy was he was making a lot of decisions 515 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 4: over the heads of you know, of his nuncios and 516 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 4: the normal people he would consult with. And it's almost 517 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 4: a caricature. I mean, it's ironic to put it this way, 518 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 4: but a lot of people who are again to use 519 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 4: the term progressive in the church look back at the 520 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 4: pre Vatican to church and say, oh, it was so monolithic. 521 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 4: It just demanded that everybody be one thing. The best 522 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 4: unity is not totalitarian, It is not totally unified like 523 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 4: that where it suppresses all difference. The best unity when 524 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 4: we say all the time with diversity is our strength, 525 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 4: and that's true when we get the proper diversity, when 526 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 4: we're not using diversity as a term really for progressivism, 527 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 4: when we really talk about the authentic diversity that can 528 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 4: exist in the church, that is what really attracts a 529 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 4: lot of people. And when popes like Leo, you know, 530 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 4: very early on after his election, is talking about how 531 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 4: dioceses in the West should not seek to suppress the 532 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 4: Eastern Catholic churches that are there or draw people away 533 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 4: from them, because there are riches there, the authentic riches 534 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 4: that are part of a tradition that's two thousand years old. 535 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 4: You have to be sensitive to how to incorporate all 536 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 4: those to bring you forgotten riches back into active participation 537 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 4: in the life of the church. And that is where 538 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 4: the unity will come from. 539 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree, And in Detroit we should talk 540 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: about this is not something back at you know, we're 541 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: talking about this report from twenty twenty one. We are 542 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: still in the present moment dealing with the fallout from 543 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: Pope Francis's restrictions on the Latin Mass. 544 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: In Detroit. 545 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: On July first, the Mass was stamped out in all 546 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: but four of the seventeen parishes where it has been 547 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: celebrated for years and years. 548 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 2: So this continues. It's not the past. 549 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: Your thoughts on this extremism, if you will, Father, And 550 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: in light of this report surfacing, is Pope Leo come 551 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: peled to repair this wound or at least focus on this. 552 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I would say call off the battle against 553 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 3: the Latin Mass people. I mean, this is essentially an 554 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 3: assault on what they hold sacred, which is what the 555 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 3: Church holds sacred. By the way, the Latin Mass doesn't 556 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 3: belong to the Latin Mass goers it belongs to the church. 557 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 3: So the church is depriving herself of a spiritual treasure 558 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,719 Speaker 3: by telling people this can no longer be offered in 559 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 3: your parish church. And you know, in the perspective of 560 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 3: Christian history, when in the world did the Holy See 561 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 3: evict people from their parish church when they were worshiping 562 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 3: an orthodox form of worship. The only people you would 563 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 3: exclude would be heretics or sismatics. And the reason your 564 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 3: excluding is to call them back into unity by saying 565 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 3: you can return to the churches when you renounce your 566 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 3: heresy or submit to the authority of the Holy See. 567 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 3: The people go latiness, aren't heretics, and they're certainly not schismatics. 568 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 3: They believe in the doctrine of the faith. So yeah, 569 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 3: to your second question, I think Pope Leo, uh, really 570 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 3: it's it's an obligation in charity. Uh, to reverse what 571 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 3: Pope Francis did, to realize that it was a mistake, 572 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 3: that it was not something grounded in the actual needs 573 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 3: of the church, and that it reflected a personal hostility 574 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 3: to what Pope's John Paul the Second and Benedict had done. 575 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 3: And then to soften the appearance of that hostility was 576 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 3: basically masked as a papal response in charity to the 577 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 3: demands of the worldwide hierarchy. Well it turns out it 578 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 3: wasn't that. So now is the time just say, look 579 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 3: back to Samorum pontificum. You know, let people go to 580 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 3: church as they wish and in the form they wish, 581 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 3: and as you and Bob, you know, can attest by 582 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 3: your own travels everywhere you go. When you found a 583 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 3: Latin miss you find young people with kids, and what's 584 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 3: go wrong with that? 585 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? This is this is this is what we want. 586 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: This is the future of the church. Bob. 587 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: Is it time for Pope Leo to step up to 588 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: that here and put this to put these liturgy wars 589 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: to rest. 590 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 4: Well, I don't see how he can avoid doing it. 591 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 4: I mean, the whole question of how this document was 592 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 4: so called leak is of course an interesting one, and 593 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 4: maybe Diane Montana will have some news about that for us. 594 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 4: At some point it was either someone who wanted to 595 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 4: make sure that this was known, or it could have 596 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 4: been even from the very top of the church itself 597 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 4: that this was put out there. And look, I would 598 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 4: even go a little further, Well, maybe I don't know 599 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 4: if this is further farther than what you said about charity, 600 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 4: but I think it's a matter of justice. Yeah, you know, 601 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 4: it's people were unjustly treated by this kind of gin 602 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 4: d up and false reading of what the bishops of 603 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 4: the world actually wanted. Now, you know, any pope has 604 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 4: has a right to his opinion about about various things 605 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 4: about how to how to deal with the world. There 606 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 4: are wars or economic issues about climate, climate issues of climate, 607 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 4: but no pope can really just impose his own private 608 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 4: vision on the entire church. And what we got was 609 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 4: was clearly an unjust treatment of people who I think 610 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 4: if Leo is sensitive to bringing people together and he 611 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 4: talks a lot about unity, and he's just a different 612 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 4: type of man, he's not confrontational, he doesn't he doesn't 613 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 4: humiliate people who have a different view than he has. 614 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 4: I think it could be both a matter of justice 615 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 4: and of charity that these people who are were mistreated 616 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 4: now for the last several years are finally going to 617 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 4: get some remedy, and a remedy that's a substantial remedy, 618 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 4: so that we can go back to at least having 619 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 4: a certain stability and priests and peace. And by the way, 620 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 4: the document talks about stable communities, communities that have settled 621 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 4: themselves in and they're happy with what they are doing, 622 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 4: and they're in communion with their local bishop. That's ultimately 623 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 4: what we want, whether you're talking about the novice or 624 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 4: the traditional Latin mask. 625 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, you took the thunder out of my cloud. 626 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: Here about the leak that leak document and who leaked it, 627 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: because that. 628 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 2: Is the million dollar question. 629 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: And my guess is this was to set the stage 630 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: and create the ground so that should Pope Leo want 631 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: to reverse this, there's some justification for doing so because look, 632 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: and the Pope I said this at the top. Pope 633 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: Francis didn't need the permission or majority of bishops. There 634 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 1: have been great decisions made by popes in the past 635 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: that his bishops did not agree with. But this was 636 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: a situation where there was no controversy, there was no problem, 637 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: and he intervened and he stifled a community and stamped 638 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: out a legitimate, ilicit, holy ancient version and right of 639 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: the Mass just on his own whim. And I think 640 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: that has been exposed in this report, and I think 641 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: it makes it harder for Leo. 642 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: Not to do something. Now, I'll give you the last word, 643 00:34:59,160 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 2: Father on this. 644 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 3: I agree with both what you and Bob just said. 645 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 3: And I think you know the charity of a shepherd 646 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 3: is to say, if the sheep are wandering, I go 647 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 3: to follow them. And if it's they're wandering because the 648 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 3: shepherd told them to go away from what you know, 649 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 3: my predecessor told you could do, then it is an 650 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 3: obligation of justice to draw them back. And this is 651 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 3: a situation where I think Pope Leo can make it 652 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 3: quite clear to the world the love of Christ compels 653 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 3: him to do everything possible to support those who want 654 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 3: to worship and raise their children in the faith, and 655 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 3: to do so in the Mass that was celebrated for 656 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 3: more than a thousand years, the ritual. How can that 657 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 3: be bad? It's not bad now. 658 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: I have to think the more people that see it, 659 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: the more the adherents growth. 660 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 3: Yes, and you know what, Pope bendeddyt will go back 661 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 3: to that mutual enrichment. You know, the deficiencies in the 662 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 3: new Mass, And we could do a whole show on that. 663 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 3: Yes we should, yeah, we should, but the deficiencies are 664 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 3: to large extent the result of this free for all 665 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 3: spirit that came in, and then the omission of some 666 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 3: of the prayers from the Old Mass, which fitz Prinstan's 667 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 3: the auferatory, the confedio, and the prayers the foot of 668 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 3: the Old. I mean, you could restore elements from the 669 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 3: Old Mass in the vernacular to the New Mass, and 670 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 3: I think we would have general widespread acceptance by all 671 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 3: those who go to the New Mass. So, but you know, 672 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 3: I'll get another point. Discipline in the liturgy reflects reverence 673 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,280 Speaker 3: of spirit, and that's what people like. In the Old Mass. 674 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 3: There's an undisciplined ad hoc free for all. I mean, 675 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 3: how many masses have we seen on YouTube were the 676 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 3: priest's dressed like I saw a German priest dressed in 677 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 3: a rappers outfit and he was doing a wrap routine 678 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 3: at the homily time and I left. I said to him, iself, 679 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 3: this is insane. 680 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:50,720 Speaker 2: If I want. 681 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 3: Rappers, I know where to get them. I couldn't go 682 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 3: to church in Germany to do that. 683 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 2: Well, this is what I want. 684 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 3: I want. I want a bishop or a priest who 685 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 3: says a mask where he doesn't invent anything. That's what 686 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 3: we want. 687 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, Bob, I mean, this is the problem. 688 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: When you you know, when you have Catholics, we shouldn't 689 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: have to go shopping for a parish that has a 690 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: reverend liturgy and a sacred liturgy, you know, because oh, well, 691 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: you know Saint you know Confiti, or that's the guy 692 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: who's on the skateboard and does the you know, sing alongs. 693 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 2: So we're not going to go to that mask, So 694 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 2: I'm going to go over here. We shouldn't have to 695 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 2: do that. It's Catholics. 696 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, and look that those abuses are far more damaging 697 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 4: to the church than anything that a Latin mask would do. 698 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 4: I would just sort of say this in kind of 699 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 4: summary that I think that the way that Pope Leo 700 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 4: handles this is going to be quite indicative of what 701 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 4: his papacy is going to be like, because look, we 702 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,439 Speaker 4: know on the one hand that he is he does 703 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 4: retain a great affection for Pope Francis. For some reason, 704 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 4: the two of them seemed to click, and it's one 705 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 4: of the reasons perhaps why he was elected that he 706 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 4: seemed to the people who wanted to have a continuity 707 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 4: with Francis that there would be some of that, and 708 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 4: for others it looked like it would he would not 709 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 4: be a radical, that he would be a more centrist 710 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 4: kind of person. But the way that you handle this, 711 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 4: once you recognize that there was an injustice done here 712 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 4: on the basis of a kind of a false foundation, 713 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,280 Speaker 4: I think that that will tell us a lot about 714 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 4: what kind of pope he is. And he seems to 715 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 4: be a man, a steady man, a fair man, a 716 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 4: man who's not given to anger or emotions that are inappropriate. 717 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 4: And so I really would like to see him. I 718 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 4: don't know if he can reverse traduc on his custodius. 719 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 4: I would like that to happen. 720 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 3: He can, he can, he can't. 721 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you. 722 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 4: Can flap it away, you can restore it the whole 723 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 4: context that he comes out of. It's going to be 724 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 4: interesting to see how he does this. If he asked 725 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 4: a finesse it, that's fine. If he wants to reverse it, 726 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 4: that would be even better. 727 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we will leave it there. 728 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: Possibly, boy, we could go for another hour, but you 729 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: all have to get to dinner, and so do I. 730 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 2: There. We'll see you next time. And look, if you want. 731 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: More of the Royal Grande prayerful Posse, subscribe at a 732 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: Royal Grande show on YouTube or the Royal Grande Podcast 733 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: wherever you get yours on behalf of Robert Royal, Father 734 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,280 Speaker 1: Gerald Murray until the Posse rides again. Stay the course, 735 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: follow the life. I'm raiming Arroyo. We'll see you next time. 736 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and 737 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: is available on the iHeartRadio Apple wherever you get your 738 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: podcasts