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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. In the last hours, we

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Speaker 1: learned that accused killer Brian Koberger is detailing his visual

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Speaker 1: snow battle and posts what what is a visual snow syndrome?

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Speaker 1: Why is there a battle? And my immediate concern is

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Speaker 1: Kenny somehow use this at trial as a defense with me.

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Speaker 1: Renowned psychologist clinical psychologist doctor Chloe Carmichael, best selling author

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Speaker 1: of Nervous Energy, Harness The Power of Your Anxiety, and

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Speaker 1: you can find her at doctor Chloe dot com. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Chloe Carmichael, thank you for being with us. What is

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Speaker 1: visual snow syndrome? Hi, Nancy, good to do with you

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Speaker 1: as well. Visual snow syndrome is a visual hallucination in

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Speaker 1: which you know you might be seeing kind of like

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Speaker 1: when you watch TV and there's a core connection. They

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Speaker 1: call it snow when you might see a little bit

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Speaker 1: of an overlay like that around you. One thing I

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Speaker 1: do think that's interesting about Brian asserting that he struggles

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Speaker 1: with this is that I believe he actually is also

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Speaker 1: has described himself I think as a former heroin addict

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Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, and actually visual snow can be

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Speaker 1: a side effect sometimes of some of the brain changes

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Speaker 1: that can occur with serious long term drug use. So

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Speaker 1: I can't help but wonder if there could be a

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Speaker 1: connection there. Doctor Chloe Carmichael waging An. I understand that

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Speaker 1: Koberger actually writes about his so called battle with visual

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Speaker 1: snow syndrome, and I'm trying to find out about it.

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Speaker 1: Is Is it not some rare neurological condition. It's definitely

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Speaker 1: very rare, and you're absolutely correct to tie it to

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Speaker 1: the brain, which again is why in some cases it's

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Speaker 1: actually associated with drug use. And you know, as for

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Speaker 1: him saying that he's had a battle with it, personally,

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Speaker 1: I would be curious to know if he actually went

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Speaker 1: and ever requested or received treatment for it. L Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, certainly it can obviously be annoying and frustrating.

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Speaker 1: There can be anxiety and depression that just you know,

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Speaker 1: come from having this visual no effect, you know, happening

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Speaker 1: wherever you're going. There's there's not a lot of research

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Speaker 1: that's actually been done about it. But you know, again

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Speaker 1: with his drug use, we don't really know a lot

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Speaker 1: about at least I don't know a lot about what

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Speaker 1: kind of treatment he may have received post drug use,

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Speaker 1: because people don't when they become a drug addict, a

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Speaker 1: serious drug addict of heroin, as I believe was the

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Speaker 1: case in his situation. They're running from something, They're trying

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Speaker 1: to escape something. There's an unresolved issue. But if you

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Speaker 1: just stop the drug use but you don't deal with

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Speaker 1: the underlying issue, then you're kind of like what they

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Speaker 1: call a dry drunk. Right. You may have stopped the

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Speaker 1: drug use, but you haven't dealt with the underlying issue.

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Speaker 1: Let me understand, Chloe, So, in your regular life, for instance,

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Speaker 1: right now, as I'm looking at the camera, I would

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Speaker 1: see a snowy field like I'm looking at a bad

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Speaker 1: reception screen on the TV. Yes, So in your regular walk,

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Speaker 1: is it constant or does it come and go? They

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Speaker 1: say that it can come and go, and that it

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Speaker 1: can especially tend to arise during periods of stress or anxiety,

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Speaker 1: and that it can also be associated with migraine. You

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Speaker 1: know what, It's reminded me of those people that have

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Speaker 1: tonightas they have a constant sound in their ear like

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Speaker 1: all the time. Twenty four seven three. Really, because I

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Speaker 1: just thought of like this constant thing, this buzzing and

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Speaker 1: this uh snow syndrome visual snow syndrome sounds like something

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Speaker 1: that's constant that may come in and out, and you're

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Speaker 1: saying it can be exacerbated during stressful moments. Yes, that

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Speaker 1: is what you know is said about it, though I

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Speaker 1: would see again that there's limited research on it because

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Speaker 1: it is so rare. Let me ask you this in

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Speaker 1: your experience, Guys. I'm talking to doctor Chloe Carmichael, renowned psychologist,

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Speaker 1: and you can find her at doctor Chloe dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Chloe, do you believe that I'm thinking of the trial?

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Speaker 1: I'm already like five steps ahead of this, thinking how

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Speaker 1: can he use this? Because he reportedly starts complaining about

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Speaker 1: it at age sevent, which is around the time, as

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Speaker 1: you accurately pointed out, Doctor Chloe, that friends or associates

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Speaker 1: of his have stated that he used heroine and then

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Speaker 1: got clean. So can he use it somehow at trial? Question?

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Speaker 1: Do you, doctor Chloe, have you ever heard of a

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Speaker 1: theory where the visual snow syndrome insights violence? No, I

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Speaker 1: personally never have, and I actually think that it would

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Speaker 1: be a real sneer and very detrimental if he were

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Speaker 1: to suggest that somehow because of his visual snow syndrome

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Speaker 1: or because of him being a recovering addict, that that

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Speaker 1: in any way should be a rationale for him committing

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Speaker 1: these brutal murders, because what is that thing about innocent

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Speaker 1: people everywhere that may have visual snow or maybe in recovery.

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Speaker 1: There's really no justifiable reason why those things would lead

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Speaker 1: to him becoming homicidal menia. Doctor Chloe Carmichael, you're so pure.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of the twinky defense? Because you're saying,

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Speaker 1: how could someone dare use visual snow syndrome as a defense,

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Speaker 1: the twinkie defense I committed murder because I had too

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Speaker 1: many twinkies, or the PMS defense I was crazy because

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Speaker 1: I was having cramps and I was just angry that day.

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Speaker 1: I could absolutely that would only contribute to the fact

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Speaker 1: to the war, the idea of him being an entitled

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Speaker 1: and grandiose person who likes to think that there's something

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Speaker 1: about him that's special that would justify him being able

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Speaker 1: to do things that other people would not. And I

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Speaker 1: agree with you. You know, people can indict him sandwich

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Speaker 1: and they can say a twinky made them do it,

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Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean it's true. You know what, You're

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Speaker 1: so right, doctor Chloe. I'm just wondering if somehow he

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Speaker 1: can twist this thing, if not at trial, because to

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Speaker 1: use a defense like that, it's kind of like an

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Speaker 1: insanity defense or or an alcohol defense. You'd have to say, yes,

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Speaker 1: I did it, but I did it because I was

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Speaker 1: insigned by visual snow syndrome. I don't think that's going

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Speaker 1: to happen, but I could see it at mitigation, him saying, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I did it. It's been proven, you found me guilty,

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Speaker 1: but this is why I did it, because the visual

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Speaker 1: snow syndrome. So I really I don't see how that

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Speaker 1: could be personally because you know, again it is a

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Speaker 1: visual hallucination. But this was a premeditated situation. It's not

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Speaker 1: even like he was just, you know, sitting somewhere and

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Speaker 1: then suddenly a powerful hallucination came upon him and he

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Speaker 1: thought he had to reach out and stab, you know,

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Speaker 1: because he was fighting a hallucination. This appears to have

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Speaker 1: occurred completely independently of hallucinations, at least from what I

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Speaker 1: can tell. Okay, you're on something right there yet again,

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Speaker 1: doctor Chloe, because it would not have been an immediate

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Speaker 1: act like a delusion or an uncontu rollable impulse because

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Speaker 1: he had to plan this out. He stalked them, he

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Speaker 1: made contact with them online, he had to drive over

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Speaker 1: there in the cover of darkness. He wore all black,

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Speaker 1: he brought in a weapon, and then he took an

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Speaker 1: alternate route home, only turning his cell phone on once

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Speaker 1: he had left the premises. All of that, as you're saying,

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Speaker 1: is premeditation and not a sudden impulse or delusion, a

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Speaker 1: reaction to a hallucination exactly. So bottom line, you could

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Speaker 1: tell a jury in full confidence, Doctor Chloe Carmichael, it

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Speaker 1: ain't true. It didn't happen. It's not because, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would say, in my opinion, I would not see an

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Speaker 1: association or a justification there, correct, Okay, And I'd also

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Speaker 1: be interested, Doctor Chlobe Carmichael. Did he ever seek neuro rehabilitation?

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Speaker 1: Did he ever get treated for it? Or is he

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Speaker 1: just like talking out of his rear end technical legal term.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that may actually trigger more of his visual

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Speaker 1: snow is that it has just been announced Brian Coburger

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Speaker 1: could face the firing squad there in Idaho because of

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Speaker 1: the shortage of the lethal injection medicines. Okay, could something

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Speaker 1: like that a traumatic revelation trigger the visual snow syndrome.

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Speaker 1: And don't get me wrong with doctor Chloe, I don't

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Speaker 1: care he killed four people for innocent people. If he

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Speaker 1: sees static in front of his eyes, I'm not that concerned.

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Speaker 1: But would something like that revelation trigger his visual snow syndrome, Well,

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Speaker 1: I would certainly see where it could, since we know

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Speaker 1: that visual snow can be triggered by stress, and I

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Speaker 1: can see where that would cause in stress. Certainly, I'm

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Speaker 1: so like you said, I mean, it's it's if indeed

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Speaker 1: he is guilty, then you know, he would deserve to

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Speaker 1: feel a certain amount of discomfort about you know, what

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Speaker 1: may be coming. And as tier point as well, about

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Speaker 1: the battling part, if he really had been battling this,

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Speaker 1: I would certainly be curious to see if he'd ever

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Speaker 1: sought any treatment. It appears that he spent the bulk

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Speaker 1: of his time trying to, you know, study criminal sciences

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Speaker 1: and you know, potentially prepare his knowledge so that it

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Speaker 1: could become a cover for him. But it appears, you know,

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Speaker 1: more so than that he was earnestly seeking treatment and

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Speaker 1: trying to make sure that he never became a danger

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Speaker 1: to anybody. It certainly doesn't appear that way. Well, doctor Chloe,

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Speaker 1: I agree with you. This is absolutely no defense. And

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Speaker 1: of course, learning he may face his firing squad could

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Speaker 1: trigger it behind Mars, and then it would be documented

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Speaker 1: behind Mars that he did have another bout a recurrent

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Speaker 1: visual snow syndrome. Well it worked with a jury, probably not.

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Speaker 1: And I agree with you, doctor Chloe Carmichael again that

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Speaker 1: that is not a reason to incite violence, much less

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Speaker 1: a well thought out spree killing. Of course, keeping in

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Speaker 1: mind the Twinkie defense and the PMS defense, you never

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Speaker 1: know what's going to happen. And this is the first

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Speaker 1: time let me say on the record, I have ever

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Speaker 1: considered visual snow syndrome to somehow be a trial tactic.

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Speaker 1: But we wait as just as unfalls. Thank you, doctor Chloe,

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Speaker 1: so much. As always, goodbye,