1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode ninety three. We'll be 11 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: interviewing the founder of the new podcast called The Double Shift. 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: That's Catherine Goldstein. This episode is airing close to Mother's Day, so, 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: of course, various issues related to motherhood and working on 14 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: everyone's mind this week, and so we're looking forward to 15 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: hearing from Catherine about how she is approaching covering this 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: topic and the things she's coming up with. Her phrase, 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: the double Shift, of course, generally refers to the extra work, 18 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: the domestic work that women do on top of their 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: paid work. Related to Arlei Houschild's book The Second Shift 20 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: that came out several decades ago. I know that Sarah 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: and I have sort of spent a lot of time 22 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: thinking about how to minimize certain aspects of the second shift, 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: although we do a different sort of second shift, more 24 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: of a split shift sometimes in terms of work, split 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: shift meaning the paid work you do, namely after your 26 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: kids go to bed, for instance, which is when I 27 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: would often do it. But Sarah, you split your shift differently. Well, 28 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: it's kind of funny because I think I sent you 29 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: the Q and as last night and I realized, wow, 30 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: I just said. I never work at night, and clearly 31 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: sometimes if I have a deadline approaching, I will do 32 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: something later at night. But I am much more commonly 33 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: doing my second shift in the morning. For example, if 34 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,279 Speaker 1: I have residents coming to interview, it's usually the morning 35 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: of at like five am, when I am reviewing all 36 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: of the CBS, or I may be writing a blog 37 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: post or a podcast note. So some of that work 38 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: is related to my side hustle stuff, and some of 39 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: it may be related to my actual job. But my 40 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: double shift is rarely, rarely in the evening, which I 41 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: feel like is the more more common setup. Yeah, I'm 42 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: probably better in the evening. I would naturally work more 43 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: at night, I think, but I've gotten better about you know, 44 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: I mean, email expands to fill the available space, so 45 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: a lot of it can write until later. The issue 46 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: is that I've realized it's going to wait till later, 47 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: till like three or four in the afternoon, because I'm 48 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: trying also not to do email in the morning when 49 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 1: I have the ability to do more sort of focused work, 50 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: and so this starts pushing forward my response times. Not 51 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: that that's necessarily a bad thing, but you have to 52 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: choose that that's what you're what you're doing, trying not 53 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: to get back online and then just do social media. 54 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: How's your how's your social media break going, Sarah, It's 55 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: going pretty well. I decided to spend a month off 56 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: of Instagram. Now. I do make a plan and exception 57 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: for my best of both worlds posts, which come up 58 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: every Tuesday in time for our episode, and then I 59 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: do try to check back in because I feel like 60 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: it's not very nice to post something and then you know, 61 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: not see what people are writing back that doesn't seem 62 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: particularly interactive. So I do jump back in and I do, 63 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 1: Like last night, I ended up like almost accidentally switching 64 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: to my personal account was like, no, I'm not supposed 65 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: to be in here, but actually I've been pretty well 66 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: behaved with respect to that. In some ways, it's been refreshing. However, 67 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: you know, just like email expanding to fill a vacuum, 68 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: your desire to do vacuous things online also can expand 69 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: to fill an available vacuum. So I will find myself 70 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: like reading a number of Amazon book reviews that I 71 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: didn't need to read, like I'll find some other rabbit hole. 72 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: So my conclusion maybe that Instagram is fine. I actually 73 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: do enjoy it. I do think I need to have 74 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: limits set, and the little reminders on my phone with 75 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: Apple screen time feature are helpful for that. But I 76 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: don't necessarily feel that I'm going to want to cut 77 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: it out of my life forever. I did do that 78 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: with Facebook, and actually that was a healthy breakup. But yeah, yeah, 79 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: well I think we, I mean, we just do have 80 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: this like low energy time, and the question is what 81 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: you do with it. And I mean, if I have 82 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: a good book, I'll try to read that. But sometimes 83 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: the book I'm reading is more challenging or something, and 84 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: then you don't really feel like doing that, right, You 85 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: do want to do something completely mindless. Answer the question is, well, 86 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: what is that mindless stuff? And you know, Instagram can 87 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: be very good for that. To reading Twitter, there's always 88 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: something new there. If you follow enough people, there's going 89 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: to be new things, and some of it could be interesting, 90 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: some of it also not interesting. But yeah, I don't know. 91 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: I don't feel any compulsion to do a social media fast. 92 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: I guess I'll just continue with me. Instagram is best 93 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: when I consolidate it to a period where I'm just like, oh, 94 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to like just zone out and scroll and 95 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: it's kind of nice versus like thinking about checking into 96 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: something I've posted, like intrusive thoughts, perhaps about like ooh 97 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: like did someone else I don't like that? So I 98 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: guess maybe instead of just a fast, the right thing 99 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: to do is to confine it to a specific period 100 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: of time. And maybe this was helpful because I don't 101 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: find myself rushing to Amazon to you know, randomly look 102 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: at something the way that maybe I did with Instagram. 103 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: All right, well that's good. Well we're we're excited about 104 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: the Katherine Goldstein interview, so let's go to that. Well, 105 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: Sarah and I are delighted to welcome Katheryne Goldstein to 106 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: the program today. I know many of our listeners are 107 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: also listening to her podcast, The Double Shift, and she's 108 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: going to tell us more about that. So, Catherine, why 109 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to our listeners. 110 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me. So I'm Katherine Goldstein, 111 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: and I'm the creator and host of a podcast called 112 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: The Double Shift, which is about a new generation of 113 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: working mothers. And the thing that one of the things 114 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: that I think makes it different is that it's not 115 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: about parenting or kids. It's actually about the mothers themselves, 116 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:02,679 Speaker 1: our professional experiences, how you know, social forces influence our lives, 117 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: how you know, dealing with gender roles issues at work. 118 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: And we're profiling a really, really wide range of women, 119 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: from politicians to musicians, to sex workers to executives. So 120 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: I'm very interested in having a very multifaceted, diverse view 121 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: of what working motherhood in America is. Like, that's great, 122 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: And you know you've been in journalism. What drew you 123 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: to podcasting as the medium to share this story through? Yeah, 124 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: I really felt like that there wasn't enough in depth 125 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: reporting and actual journalism on the experience of being a 126 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: working mother So we see a lot of op eds, 127 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: and we see a lot of personal essays, but not 128 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: a lot of resources are really devoted to the complexities 129 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: of working motherhood in America. And so I was interested 130 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: in a podcast because I wanted to have a much 131 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: longer and more in depth conversation about some of those 132 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: issues rather than just here's one article in one place, 133 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: here another article in another place. But I thought it 134 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: would be really amazing to engage people in a much 135 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: more involved experience in trying to get at and redefine 136 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: some of how we think about working motherhood in America. 137 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: And I'm also interested in the conversation and community that 138 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: that sort of naturally evolves around podcasting. I know that 139 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: when we started, we felt like there was a major gap. 140 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: And you know, definitely we are not the same type 141 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: of podcast. Yours has much more Our focus is on 142 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: mothers kind of working more full time corporate or traditional jobs, 143 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: and yours focuses on all kinds of really fascinating experiences, 144 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: which is one reason that I actually love your podcast 145 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: as well. But we also felt like there was this 146 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: major gap. Yes, and I know you had an interesting 147 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: story of how you ended up having to pitch your 148 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: podcast a few times that you talk about on the podcast. Yeah, 149 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: so I'm actually our March at March. Our May sixth 150 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: episode is actually talks even more about the podcast journey 151 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: of the Double Shift, but which gives a lot of 152 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: detail into sort of what it took to get this 153 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: show made. So basically, you know, I've been a journalist 154 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: for over a decade. I had a really solid career 155 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: and reputation as a journalist, and I kind of thought 156 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: this is an obvious gap that is missing in the 157 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: podcast landscape and that you know, once I could really 158 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: put together something compelling and really show people that this 159 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: was something that was missing from from the world and 160 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: that there was so many great stories and so much 161 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: great journalism to do on this. Like obviously, podcast companies 162 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: would be interested because it's a growing space. And so 163 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: my experience was basically all the major podcast companies turned 164 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: me down, and you know, probably like ten to twelve rejections. 165 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: There's some podcast companies I managed to not pitch, but 166 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: I definitely I talked to all the big ones. If 167 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: you can think of a big one, I probably talked 168 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: to them. Then they probably said no. And you know 169 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: what was interesting about the feedback. You know, I got 170 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: a really what the range of feedback. I think a 171 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: lot of it was really tinged with some sexism. So 172 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: I was told by podcast executives, if there's not enough 173 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: that's interesting about being a working mother to make an 174 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: entire show about it out Also, yeah, but likescinating, like 175 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: such the embedded sexism of our culture, that there's nothing 176 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: about moms that's that's interesting. Moms are boring, Like that's 177 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: basically what our media messages, and that all we care 178 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: about is the same three conversations about like work life balance, 179 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: and once we've had those conversations, there's literally nothing else 180 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: to say. And I just totally disagree with that, And 181 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: so that was one piece of feedback I got. Also, 182 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: people had a really hard time understanding that you could 183 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: have a podcast about mothers that wasn't about parenting, So 184 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: like people did not understand that mothers are more than parents, 185 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: and that like we have complex, rich inner lives and 186 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: experiences that touch all sorts of you know, public policy 187 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: and health care and gender roles, and people like had 188 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: a hard time getting that you could talk to mothers 189 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: about anything other than parenting. So those were some of 190 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: the some of the kinds of feedback that I got. 191 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: And also I think people were like hesitant to think 192 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: that mothers were worth doing journalism on and spending resources 193 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: to do real journalism about mothers, because again, there's the 194 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: stereotype that we're boring and there's nothing interesting to say 195 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: journalistically about us, So screw them. A data shift you did, 196 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: and you're doing fantastic And I can tell from the 197 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: amount of engagement you're getting that it must be blowing up, 198 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: which is great. What is a listener demographic? Like, aren't 199 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: many listeners mothers? Many podcasts listeners? Yeah, podcasts in general. Yeah, 200 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: So well do you think you know, people are really 201 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: interested in the idea of more women listening to podcasts 202 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: and more mothers listening to podcasts, but they're interested in 203 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: it from like a marketing perspective and an ad perspective. 204 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like, what's the show we can 205 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: make for a small amount of money that we could 206 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: put mom oriented ads on, Like there's not sort of 207 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: a larger journalistic interest and like diving into the issues 208 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: we face as mothers. I think there's an interest in 209 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: producing low cost content for you know that moms that 210 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: can be where moms can be advertised to. And I 211 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: have advertisers on my show, and I think that they're 212 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: really important partners. I have nothing against advertisers. I just 213 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: think that and I you know, I think advertisers can 214 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: be absolutely beneficial to listeners. But it's just a question 215 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: of like this idea that you know, there's there's I 216 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: don't know, one hundred and thirty shows about technology and society. 217 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: There's like you know, there's countless talk shows about sports 218 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: and politics, and they keep launching new ones. Like I 219 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: just it's just the idea that this is still a 220 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: niche thing that's really about getting advertising dollars then about 221 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: doing real journalism. Well, so, and do you sp And 222 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: I was going to say you specifically focus on working 223 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: motherhood because I also feel like there's a large genre 224 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: of sort of how do I put that, like feminine 225 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: oriented podcasts that are about the home or crafting or 226 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: you know, other or even just parenting in general, but 227 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: they're really not seem to be much content for those 228 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: that are pulling the double shift. Yeah, yeah, and that's 229 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: why I was so excited to explore this. And again, 230 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: you know, we're talking to people in ways large and 231 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: small that some of I hope that every episode has 232 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: something that, even if the subject is super different from 233 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: the listener's life experience, that there's something that's very relatable 234 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: about each of the subjects. And I think a lot 235 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: about that. Well. So with that, so some of our 236 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: listeners who haven't listened to The Double Shift, perhaps maybe 237 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: you could talk about one or two of those topics 238 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: that you've chosen to cover and the angle you came at, 239 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: and sort of your most interesting stories that you've told 240 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: so far. Sure, so picking a favorite episode is like 241 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: taking a favorite child. So I will never say one 242 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: episode is my favorite, but I will I'm happy to 243 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: talk about a few. So one episode I'm really proud 244 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: of is we did. The second episode of the show 245 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: is called The Night Shift in Sin City, and it's 246 00:12:55,800 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 1: about twenty four hour daycare in Las Vegas and it 247 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: all about this woman who runs it, and it really 248 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: focuses on the people who use the twenty four hour daycare. 249 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: A lot of them are single mothers, a lot of 250 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: them are shift workers, and a lot of them go 251 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: to school all day and work overnight. And so I 252 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: was very excited to do this story because I think 253 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: We're in an absolute childcare crisis in America, and unfortunately, 254 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: I don't feel like there's a lot of new and 255 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: exciting ideas being introduced. Like there's definitely some new conversations 256 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: around the twenty twenty presidential candidates and some policy ideas 257 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: which I'm super excited about, but a lot of times 258 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: I feel like the conversation sort of starts and ends 259 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: from a middle class perspective of like, Wow, childcare is expensive, 260 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: that's too bad, and then there's just not a lot 261 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: of other perspective and research and reporting. So I was 262 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: really excited to really take listeners into this daycare and 263 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: this woman is running at Nidia Sanchez as a business 264 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: that is profitable, which is I think surprising to a 265 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: lot of people, and really how the business works and 266 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: what she offers and what the parents who go there say, 267 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: and what the you know, sort of feeling like you're 268 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: in the experience of going to the daycare, and I 269 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: just feel like we need more creative solutions to these big, 270 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: big problems we face, and so that's why I want 271 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: to do these kinds of real reporting, Like Nidia Sanchez 272 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: is not a public figure, she doesn't have a pr 273 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: agent pitching me to be on the podcast. We had 274 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: to go out and find her. So I think that 275 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: it's important to find those kinds of interesting stories because 276 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: they can really inform everyone's experience. So that's one episode 277 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: and then another one I think that has gotten a 278 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: lot of really positive feedback is we did an episode 279 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: on Ashton Clemens, who ran for a state house seat 280 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: in North Carolina, and she didn't have any political experiences. 281 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: She had three little kids, and we really spent time 282 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: with her and what it's like to be a mom 283 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: with young kids running for office. And one particularly interesting 284 00:14:55,240 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: moment of that was she during our interview, her daughter 285 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: got left at ballet, like the babies that are have 286 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: to pick up her daughter. So like we captured this 287 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: whole experience, this whole thing on tape, and people really 288 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: related to that because one we don't really talk about 289 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: what it means to run for office as a mom 290 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: with young kids, because this is a brand new phenomenon. 291 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: Everyone everyone has had those logistical family professional you know, 292 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: snaff fu mishaps, and I think it's just really important 293 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: to have really much more honest conversations and not sort 294 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: of project these ideas of perfection even for a politician 295 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: who's supposed to be perfect all the time. So we 296 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: had a really interesting conversation with her about the mental 297 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: load that mothers Carrie that I think I've heard that 298 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: many listeners really related to. So, Catherine, I mean, you're 299 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: you're deeply interested in these issues of working motherhood, but 300 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: you're you're relatively new to the working mother life yourself. Right, 301 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: Your your child is three years old. Now, he's three 302 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: and a half. Yeah, he's three and a half. Yeah, 303 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: So were you interested in this before he came around? 304 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: Or did this interest or arise after that? Like many people, 305 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: I really had no idea the challenges I would face 306 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: as a working mother until I became one. So in 307 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: my own personal experience, I had a tough first year 308 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: of motherhood, which was basically he my son was born 309 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: with some serious health problems. But he's doing great now, 310 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: but it was a very stressful and traumatic sort of 311 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: early entrance to motherhood. And then I lost my job 312 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: when he was six months old. So the combination of 313 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: those two things just like completely challenged everything about my 314 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: identity and really made me feel like a failure. And 315 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think that basically from there, 316 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: I started to get more and more interested because I 317 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: was personally having such a hard time. I started to 318 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: get interested in turning my journalistic lens on was what 319 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: was going on in this crazy experience of being a 320 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: work mother, And I came to see that. You know, 321 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: I basically thought I was a failure and everybody else 322 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: had this working mother thing figured out. It was just 323 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: me and I was defective. But as I started to 324 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 1: turn my journalistic curiosity and lens towards being a working mother, 325 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: I started to realize nobody had it all figured out, 326 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: and so many women felt like failures. But really, I 327 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: think it's our society. America is failing us as mothers. 328 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: We have terrible public policy, we don't have paid family leave, 329 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: anti mom bias and pregnancy discrimination are rampant in workplaces. 330 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: So I'm much more interested in talking about how society 331 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: needs to change rather than how mothers need to change. 332 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: I love that you, You know, the fact that you 333 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: did have a little bit of a rocky start definitely 334 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: comes through in your episodes, and it is kind of 335 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 1: nice sometimes to hear about the journey from someone who 336 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,239 Speaker 1: is sort of freshly into it and remembers how it 337 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: was before, So I actually think that's been an asset 338 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: that you were a relative newcomer. Yeah. Now, so you 339 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: sort of I mean, you know, not that mothers need 340 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: to change, but you changed some interesting things about your 341 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: life in order to get this podcast off ground, and 342 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: Turre and I were both fascinating to hear this part. 343 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 1: So you wound up leaving New York moving to North Carolina. 344 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that? Yeah, so that was a 345 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: huge life change. So I'd been in New York about 346 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: twelve years and my husband maybe about ten, and you know, 347 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: we decided that we were I was very fortunate to 348 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: do a one year journalism fellowship at Harvard, so we 349 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: like left New York for on a temporary basis for 350 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: one year. And it kind of like broke the seal 351 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: because when you live in New York, you just like, 352 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: I don't understand how anyone doesn't live in New York. 353 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: This is the entire world. There are ways to live 354 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 1: that don't involve that, you know, you get you really 355 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: feel like you're you're the norm and the only way 356 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: to live. So it kind of showed us a little 357 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: bit of a different way that we could live, and 358 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: we just decided that we were ready for an easier 359 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: and less expensive life, and part of having an easier 360 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: and less expensive life would mean some professional freedom. So 361 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: mostly in New York I had sort of like high 362 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: powered and high paying media jobs, and I realized that 363 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: the kind of work I wanted to do was less 364 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: about being high powered and high paying and more about 365 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: having a high impact. And so it was just didn't 366 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: feel like financially sustainable to say, like, I'm going to 367 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: do that living in the most expensive city in the country. 368 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: And so we you know, it was a big decision, 369 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: but I think we were really happy with it, and 370 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: in some ways, I feel like we've never looked back. 371 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: And sometimes I feel like when we try to talk 372 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: about how to make our lives better from on, you know, 373 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: our personal lives better as working mothers, sometimes we get 374 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: really into the micro and sometimes it's the biggest piece. 375 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: Changing the biggest piece changes all the sizes of all 376 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: the other pieces of the puzzle. So so we moved 377 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: to Durham, North Carolina, and we got an easier and 378 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: less expensive life well for sure, and we also moved 379 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: closer to family. My parents live about twenty minutes away, 380 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: and then my husband's mother actually followed us here and 381 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: she lives five blocks away. So now we have like 382 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: this roster of grandparents and it has like profoundly changed 383 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: our lives. And I like to joke that, so the 384 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: subway is called the MTA in New York, and I 385 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: like to joke that now that I don't have to 386 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: fight the MTA, I can spend all my energy fighting 387 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: the patriarchy. Well, if the answer to everyone's issues is 388 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: to move to Durham, that might be actually partially true, 389 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: because it is a very magical place, having been there 390 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: for over a decade, and it sounds like a fantastic 391 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: move for you. We have definitely found that our listeners 392 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: who write in and have grandparents participating in the care, 393 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: that that can be super helpful. Have you found challenges 394 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: embedded in that, like is it harder to rely on 395 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: family members versus employed or well, so our son goes 396 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: to like a full time preschool, so we're not relying 397 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: on them for like daily care, which I think would 398 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: be a totally different story, and I think comes with 399 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: a lot of politics and family dynamics, et cetera. But 400 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: sounds like a good double shift episode. But the thing 401 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: that has been I think one of the most life 402 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: changing things. And we didn't live near family until this 403 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: movie year ago, and the one of the life changing 404 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: things I think has been so my mother in law 405 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: lives close by and she has offered she takes our 406 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: sun every Friday overnight and so every like once a 407 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: week we can like have a date night and sleep 408 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: in and it has completely changed our lives. And that 409 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure many people I feel like what 410 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: I tell people, there's like this, like they get this 411 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: like far away look of like resentment and jealousy in 412 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: their eyes like when I tell them about this, But 413 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: I feel so good about this it is I think 414 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: it's also allowed us to recharge to be more present 415 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: parents for the rest of the weekend, and then also 416 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: connect my husband and I connect to each other because 417 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: I think that for a lot of working parents gets 418 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: put down on priority level number twenty seven to actually 419 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: like connect with your partner in some kind of meaningful 420 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: way that it doesn't feel like could you tell me 421 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: really quickly? There's a child screaming in the background, like 422 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: what is like what happened in your day? Okay, I 423 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: can't even hear you tell me later, So I think 424 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: that that's allowed me to actually give more to my 425 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: career and give more to my family having that like 426 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: one night and basically my work days are so stressful. 427 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: By Friday, I feel like a released caged animal. So 428 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: it's like a very It just like comes every week 429 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: at like a rhythm that is really life changing. And 430 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: that sounds wonderful because then you can enter into the 431 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: kid part of your weekend all refreshed and having had 432 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: that nice connection time with your partner life. That's wonderful. No, 433 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: rest he who love it? Resentment? I mean jealousy, sure, 434 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: but is it not resentment? No? You should you should 435 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: run with that all all the way. And no, it's 436 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: it's it's so true. And I think, you know, living 437 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: near extended family, I mean it's like the equivalent of 438 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: I don't know, it would be like one hundred thousand 439 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: dollars raise in terms of you know, what you are 440 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: able to because having sort of that immediate backup care 441 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: if you need dif for instance, having the overnight care 442 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: or all things that are very expensive and you know, 443 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: my husband and I both travel for work, so we've 444 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: had to approximate that through other ways. But you know, 445 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: having grandparents who could do it would be awesome. So yeah, 446 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: that's and and speak of your husband, you had mentioned 447 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: that you guys work to split things sort of as 448 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: equitably as you can, and so what does that look 449 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: like a as a practical matter, My husband has really 450 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: supported me in this project, and sort of, like I 451 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: think a lot of times when we talk about supportive partners, 452 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: like we sort of gloss over what that really means 453 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: and what that looks like, because a supportive partner can 454 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: be like, oh hey, good job, or a supportive partner 455 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: can be like, I'm willing to change my life and 456 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: change like what I have to do in order for 457 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: you to do what you need to do. And so 458 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: I feel extremely lucky that I have a partner that 459 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: has been very willing to change his life to support 460 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to do. And so like some of 461 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 1: the ways that's looked like is that basically I'm very 462 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: productive in the mornings, so we sort of have switched 463 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: our responsibility. Like we would sort of take turns with 464 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: like who was taking our son to school and who 465 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: was getting him ready, But basically now he does everything 466 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: in the morning, so like I can basically go to 467 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: my office as soon as I wake up and just 468 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: don't have to do anything in the morning and can 469 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: get like hours of more work in rather than being like, oh, 470 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: let's see if I can get some emails. Oh my 471 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: son woke up. Oh I have to do the school 472 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: thing or whatever. And then I pick my son up. 473 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: And that's like a good sort of mental way for 474 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: me to try to like unwind from the day, to 475 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: have like a cap of like I have to leave 476 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: to do pick up rather than sort of like working 477 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: frantically until dinner. And so that has been really great, 478 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: and I think, you know, I talk to mothers a 479 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: lot about the mental load, and a lot of women, 480 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: I think, feel like they have certain things that there's 481 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: just no way that they can entrust their perfectly capable, professional, 482 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: competent partner to. They couldn't trust them to pass see 483 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: things off. And of course not everyone has that partner. 484 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: It's a lot of people don't have any partner. A 485 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: lot of people don't have a trustworthy partner, but a 486 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: lot of people do, and a lot of people feel 487 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: like they can't really let go of certain things. And 488 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: so I feel like that I have also allowed myself 489 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: to let go of the micromanagement control of certain things, 490 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: like sometimes my son goes to school in an outfit 491 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: that I think might not be perfectly weather appropriate and 492 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna like not get involved, or you know, 493 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: sometimes my husband has taken over, Like he did a 494 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: bunch of stuff on our taxes this year, and I 495 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: had done that in the past, and like, maybe he 496 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: didn't do it at the pace that I thought he 497 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: should have been starting earlier on doing that, but he 498 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: did get it done, and like me like standing over 499 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: his shoulder being like, are you doing it? Are you 500 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: doing it? Are you doing it? It's not actually going 501 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: to like help our family. So I think like a 502 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: lot of these conversations are wound around like women feeling 503 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: like they need to be in charge of certain things. 504 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: And that's not to say that's not to blame women. 505 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: I think we're socially conditioned to think that, and I 506 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: think we're judged when things aren't. Like no one judges 507 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,239 Speaker 1: a father when a kid like you know, doesn't have 508 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: his permission slip sign, like people judge the mother. So 509 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: I think, like, oh, was that part of this episode. 510 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,479 Speaker 1: We actually just had a discussion of this on one 511 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,479 Speaker 1: of our very recent podcasts. I can't remember if it's 512 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: part of this episode or not, but yes, what is 513 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: it with the the the the unequal judgment? Very and 514 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: I think a lot of times women don't want to 515 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: give up control because they're they know they're going to 516 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,239 Speaker 1: be judged by other people for not doing things for 517 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: now hopefully not for ye. Well, that actually segues really 518 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 1: good into into a question we often ask about day 519 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: in the life. But we already got the beginning of that. 520 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: You your husband is the morning parents, and then you 521 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: go a strange work So why don't you talk to 522 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: her a little bit about what the work day then 523 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: looks like for you? What's involved in putting together a 524 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: reported podcast that you know, at least initially you're doing 525 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: it yourself, and then I know you'vefully the revenue is 526 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: coming in more from the advertisements, all that. But as 527 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: you've been managing all that aspect of it, why don't 528 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: you talk about that process? Yeah, so this running So 529 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: I run the podcast. I run it as like a 530 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: small media company, and that has stretched me. I never 531 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: set out to be an entrepreneur. I think we glorify 532 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: entrepreneurship in this culture. And let me just tell you 533 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: it's really hard, and like I definitely so, I definitely 534 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: have had moments of being like, what during this process 535 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: would be like, wouldn't it be fun if I went 536 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: to an office and someone paid me to sit in 537 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: front of a computer, Like that would be so great. 538 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: But for the most part, I'm very happy with how 539 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: things go. But basically my days can really vary from 540 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: like this morning, I'm like planning a trip to DC 541 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: and New York to do a panel, and I'm coordinating 542 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: like things around that trip, and I'm writing questions for 543 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: an interview, an expert interview we're going to do, and 544 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: I'm trying to set up we're actually on May six, 545 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: we launched a membership program for the Double Shift, so 546 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: I was looking over all the paperwork and figuring out 547 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: how to set up a Stripe account and so a lot. 548 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 1: A lot of what I found about running the small 549 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: business has been not just making the podcast, which is 550 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: very intense and involved, but all the business side of 551 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: running a small business. And I've I've definitely had moments 552 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: where like the times I've most wanted to quit, we're 553 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: like sitting in front of quick books being like I 554 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: don't understand why this payment won't send, and just like 555 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: questioning all of my life choices. So so I definitely 556 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: have many ups and downs like that and sending a 557 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: lot of emails. And I think it's hard when you're 558 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: running a business like that to also have time to 559 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: be creative. And I think part of this podcast like 560 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: I need to come up with creative ideas and creative thinking. 561 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: So we're gonna be taking a break over the summer 562 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: and I'm hoping to think of some new a lot 563 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: of new creative thinking for season two. Yeah, because you 564 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: can get so caught up in the sort of task 565 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: management aspects of it that you realize you never actually 566 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: took the time to sit and think about new things. 567 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: Sometimes we get to the point where we're like, yeah, 568 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: we need a couple of weeks and we're reconvene because 569 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: there's no we can't just do it on the following 570 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: totally exactly. Well, this is this is awesome, Catherine. What 571 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: can we look forward to? What topics are you looking 572 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: to cover in the future, And we get there may 573 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: be secrets, but whatever you can give away every day 574 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: I felt to tease our future episodes. So we have actually, 575 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: as this is airing, most of the first season is done, 576 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: but the two episodes we have coming up are a 577 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: really I think it's going to blow people's minds. I 578 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: hope episode from a Muslim sex educator about self care 579 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: that I feel like introduces like some very radical concepts 580 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: and that really like really challenges a lot about how 581 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: we think about what self care is it involved sexual empowerment, 582 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: So stay tuned for that. And then the second, the 583 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: last episode of the season is also going to be 584 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: It's going to be about paid family leave because this 585 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: is like such an incredibly important topic and something that 586 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: I felt like the Double Shift needed to say something about. 587 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: And I think we're also going to challenge a bunch 588 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: of assumptions that people have about what it means to 589 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: be lucky to have paid family leave and what actual 590 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: actually appropriate paid family leave looks like and how you 591 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: change your your company policies. Excellent, Well, I will be 592 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: looking forward to as a listener, so I'm sure that 593 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: some of our current listeners here will probably check it 594 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: out as well well. So we did prepare you ahead 595 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: of time, Catherine, What is should we go first with 596 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: our loves the week? Our love the weeks? Because then 597 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: make sure that Catherine is gone. Time to think about this, Sarah, 598 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: what do you have? So this is one of those 599 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: more vague ones. I was just waxing ecstatic that my 600 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: children have been sleep getting closer to seven lately, and 601 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: it just I love it. It makes for a much 602 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: more relaxing start to the day, especially since I do 603 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: tend to be more productive in the morning. And if 604 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: this continues into the summer, which I don't know if 605 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,479 Speaker 1: it will, because I do think a lot of it 606 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: is very light related, then our mornings will just be 607 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: lovely because they won't have to rush to camp and 608 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: we can even have time to hang out before I 609 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: head to work. But I'll still get that time for myself. Yeah, 610 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: I would. I would love if all my children were 611 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: sleeping to seven, but unfortunately that's still not happening. But 612 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: the good news is Alex, my youngest, is entertained by 613 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: YouTube still, so we're we're watching a lot of nerf 614 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: Gune wars on YouTube. There's there's nothing I can do 615 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: about it. That's been what he clicks on and it's 616 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: what he likes, and so that's what entertains him. And 617 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: I can shower or read or something like that. But 618 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: I also, I mean, he's reached the stage where he 619 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: actually just goes to bed when he's supposed to go 620 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: to bed like a good you know, the nights I'm 621 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: putting him to bed, go and read a story, put 622 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: him in his bed, kiss me. He stays in bed 623 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: like this is. We fought bedtime battles for years. It's 624 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: it's done. It's like the world has opened up. So 625 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: that is my love of the week, how about you, Catherine. 626 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna pick a non parenting love of the week, 627 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: which is really on brand for me. But I'm gonna 628 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: pick so. Since we moved to Durham, we have a 629 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: yard which we never had in New York, and I 630 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: planted like an urban vegetable garden and it's doing really well. 631 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: And it gives me such a tremendous sense of accomplishment 632 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: when I see this like bursting bin full of like 633 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: green life of things I can eat. I mean, it's 634 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: I mean, let's be honest, it's not like, you know, 635 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: I'm not a farmer here, but I've got like, i 636 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: got mint, I've got I've got sorel I've got parsley, 637 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,479 Speaker 1: I've got chives, I've got all the stuff you need 638 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: to make a really good like green Goddess dressing. So 639 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,719 Speaker 1: I'm feeling or like a pesto. So I'm feeling a 640 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: lot of like I definitely I I've discovered that I 641 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: like gardening and it's fun to be outside and like 642 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: feel like you're nurturing something that is like can't talk back. 643 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: I don't know, totally unlike the three year old. Right, yeah, No, 644 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: the garden is definitely an upside of moving out of 645 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: New York City. Although we have our vegetable garden in 646 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: the back and it's you know, it feeds us and 647 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: it feeds the deer. I think is it's more like 648 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: a deer salad bar. I might want to make sure 649 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: you have nice fists around it. I just enjoy it 650 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: every time you mentioned her. Yeah all right, well, Catherine, 651 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming on. We appreciate it and 652 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: hopefully our listeners will check out the double show. Thanks 653 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: so much for having me. So here's our Q and I. 654 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: We received this question via email, and I love the 655 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: title of the question. She actually titled it resentment a 656 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: podcast question, So we'll start with that. So our writer writes, 657 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: I may stay at home mom with three kids aged six, 658 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: four and seventeen months. I also have pretty significant work 659 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: commitments some online classes that I teach. I'm starting a 660 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: new business, I'm helping a friend with her business, and 661 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: I have a publishing contract. I also have volunteer commitments 662 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 1: on the room parent for my older son's classes. I'm 663 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: in the PTA at each school, and I teach Sunday school. 664 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: This will increase during the fall when I pick up 665 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: another in person class, start learning to be PTA treasurer, 666 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 1: and possibly start a running club at the elementary school. 667 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: I am into distance running and I train five to 668 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: six mornings per week, with a long run on Saturday morning. 669 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: I never watch TV or use social media except listening 670 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: to a few podcasts hopefully that includes ours. She writes, 671 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: and I put this part in bold because I thought 672 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: it was important. All of these things are very important 673 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: to me. I really am proud of my professional accomplishments, 674 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: particularly the book contract, and I love that I have 675 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: the flexibility to do things like field trips and story 676 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: times with my little ones. But I find myself increasingly 677 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: angry and resentful about well everything. My parents provide one 678 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: morning of childcare for my little one each week, so 679 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: I can work, but the rest of my time. My 680 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: worktime occurs during naptime and my little is not a 681 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: great napper. Sometimes I work very early in the morning 682 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: before I run, and an evening and weekend when everyone 683 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 1: else is relaxing. I silently see as my entire family 684 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: sits down to relax and watch the Friday night movie 685 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: at seven PM, and my workday begins, all the while 686 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: knowing I have to get up at four or four 687 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: point thirty the next morning to do my long run. 688 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: I was so mad when two friends were talking before 689 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,959 Speaker 1: a school event about shows and movies I like to watch. 690 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: These are people I generally like, but in that moment 691 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: I resent to them so much for watching TV when 692 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: I don't get to I feel angry when anyone wants 693 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: more of me, whether it's my husband wanting a couple time, 694 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: the baby wanting a story before bed, my kid wanting 695 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: me to play, when I'm trying to finish one of 696 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: the many many household chores, or a coworker or a 697 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 1: co volunteer wanting me to take on another responsibility. How 698 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: do I keep my eyes on the long term goals 699 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: I've worked for and not be angry and resentful that 700 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: I feel like a sleep deprived drudge who never has 701 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: any fun. WHOA Laura, Why don't you go first? Yeah? No, 702 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: this is a tough one. I mean the thing that 703 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: I saw in this question, I mean she introduced herself 704 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: as a stay at home mom with three kids, and like, 705 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: you're not a stay at home mom. You have all 706 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: these professional commitments. What you are is a working mom 707 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: who doesn't have an adequate support system. And I don't 708 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: know why it's important to her to refer to herself 709 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: as a stay at home mom, but I think that 710 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: that is what's really kind of there's this cognitive dissonance here. 711 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: I can't have regular childcare because I'm a stay at 712 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: home mom, But she's working, like she has multiple part 713 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: time gigs in addition to her volunteer commitments. And the 714 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: key thing, I assume she doesn't think there's anything wrong 715 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: with childcare, because if she did, she wouldn't be emailing 716 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: us right like she wouldn't be listening to our podcast 717 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: and sending in this question. So I think she just 718 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: needs to shift her mindset here that I am a 719 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: working mother who needs the support in order to meet 720 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: my professional and so my volunteer commitments. So you know, 721 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: the question is how she can put that into her life. Now, 722 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: I'm not saying she needs forty hours a week. I mean, 723 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: she's not reporting to an office somewhere, but she still 724 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: does have to do this stuff. So I mean, the 725 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: most obvious idea for me was to ask if her 726 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: parents could extend that one morning that they're watching her 727 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: baby to maybe like at least mid afternoon, like three 728 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: thirty or so, because that would accompliss that would encompass 729 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: nap time, Like, they'd still get the naptimes, so it 730 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: wouldn't be that many more hours she was asking them 731 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: to do, but it would be for sure hours she 732 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,919 Speaker 1: could have. If she could then also get two other 733 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: mornings per week, for instance, then she'd probably get the 734 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: nap times too. Maybe maybe not, but having you know, 735 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: knowing for sure she'd get like seven hours on Monday, 736 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: four hours Wednesday, four hours on Friday, I think that 737 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: would help her immensely in terms of feeling like she 738 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: had enough time to devote to these things without working 739 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: all weekend, working all night, being up at four thirty 740 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: to work after working into the wee hours as well. 741 00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: So you know, could she get a sitter to come 742 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: for those eight hours a week, or are there is 743 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 1: there a home based daycare near her that she could 744 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: go to for eight to ten hours per week. A 745 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: lot of commercial daycare centers that won't work. They really 746 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: want you there for the forty hours or at least 747 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 1: paying for the forty hours because that's their structure. But 748 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: maybe there's you know, a friend who runs an in 749 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: home daycare that might be willing to take a child 750 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: for less time, or or a sitter that she could 751 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: get for you know, ten hours a week or something 752 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: like that, or you know, as she could decide that 753 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: I'm going all in and let me go someplace that 754 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: I'm you know, dropping my kid off at eight and 755 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: picking them up at three thirty, and that would help 756 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 1: for you know, then having school hours for her older 757 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,720 Speaker 1: too to work. But yeah, this this system sounds unsustainable 758 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: and you know you can hear that, and she titled 759 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: the question resentment, like you can't do this, like it 760 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: does doesn't work in terms of time. You're gonna resent 761 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: everyone like the kid wants stuff because of course you're 762 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: their primary caregiver with them, but you're also trying to 763 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,280 Speaker 1: do the work, like just because you can do stuff 764 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: from home doesn't mean you can without childcare. That's that's 765 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: my take, one hundred percent think. I mean, when I 766 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: actually had a very emotional reaction to this, I was 767 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,280 Speaker 1: sort of horrified, like, I feel so bad for this person, 768 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: and it doesn't seem like the family and marriage would 769 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 1: even last honestly if she continues to do this. And 770 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: the picture of everybody watching a movie on Friday, and 771 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: you know, I picturing her husband kicking back with the 772 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: kids and they've all got popcorn and she's like scrubbing 773 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: the floor and then going on to deal with her 774 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 1: online class while being angry at all of them, Like that, 775 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: there is something very wrong there with that picture, and 776 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: I think that something needs to change. And I agree 777 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: that the biggest missing ingredient here is childcare. And even 778 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: if she does find some kind of a part time solution, 779 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 1: I think she needs to take her work seriously, just 780 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: like you said, and you sort of admit to herself 781 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: that she's in this place where what she's contributing on 782 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: that side is just as valuable and she can't just 783 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: be living a double life. It's not working. I think, 784 00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: you know, she actually wrote back to us and you know, 785 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: mention and that costs was a bit of a concern, 786 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: but she does have a number of things that are 787 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: bringing in income, and at one point she sort of 788 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 1: described all these things as optional. So in my mind, 789 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: literally every dollar that she's earning, if you added that 790 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: all up, I'm guessing probably is going to pay for 791 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: at least some part time childcare for one child. And 792 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: I think for the benefit of their overall situation and 793 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: her mental health, she should absolutely go for it. And 794 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: hopefully that will compound upon itself as her business grows 795 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: and her you know, services become even more valued, then 796 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: that may kind of it may more than pay for itself. Yeah. Yeah, 797 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: the childcare is an investment in your long term earning potential. 798 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: So hopefully our listener will have that mindset shift there 799 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: and realize that, you know, to succeed professionally, you need 800 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: adequate support and making sure that that's a priority in 801 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: her life. And I also do hope that she really 802 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: fleshes this out and how she's feeling with her husband, 803 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,839 Speaker 1: and she admits what her feelings are and how she 804 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: feels when they go to sit down and relax, and 805 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: she's not part of that. You know, so maybe there 806 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: needs to be a little bit more equitable distribution of 807 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,279 Speaker 1: household tasks that she mentions as well. That an yeah, 808 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: but I think again, if she's been constantly saying I 809 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: must stay at home mom, like, he's probably got that 810 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: at said mindset too. Well, of course she's focused on 811 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: the home I'm doing work and not realizing that the 812 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,360 Speaker 1: situation has changed, and she is in fact working multiple 813 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: part time jobs and so the home situation needs to 814 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: change as well. All right, Well, this has been Best 815 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: of Both Worlds episode ninety three, talking with Catherine Goldstein 816 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: about the double shift. Our listener, of course with this 817 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: question doing maybe a triple or quadruple shift or something 818 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 1: like that too. But we'll be back next week with 819 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:46,280 Speaker 1: more on making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. 820 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com 821 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can 822 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has 823 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: been the Best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please join us 824 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: next time for more on making work and life work together.