1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:15,890 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:19,810 --> 00:00:22,570 Speaker 2: Hello, Today, we're bringing you something a little bit different, 3 00:00:22,730 --> 00:00:27,090 Speaker 2: an episode of Revisionist History, another podcast from Pushkin Industries. 4 00:00:27,930 --> 00:00:31,850 Speaker 2: This season on Revisionist History, Malcolm Gladwell is diving into 5 00:00:31,890 --> 00:00:36,210 Speaker 2: the infuriating issue of guns. The six episode series looks 6 00:00:36,250 --> 00:00:39,450 Speaker 2: at America's gun problem through topics such as the insanity 7 00:00:39,490 --> 00:00:42,730 Speaker 2: of the US Supreme Court and the world of trauma surgeons. 8 00:00:43,210 --> 00:00:46,090 Speaker 2: And one of the episodes which caught my attention was 9 00:00:46,130 --> 00:00:49,290 Speaker 2: all about the influence of Westerns. As you know, I 10 00:00:49,490 --> 00:00:53,450 Speaker 2: love cautionary tales that use true stories from history to 11 00:00:53,490 --> 00:00:55,930 Speaker 2: teach us valuable lessons about the world we live in. 12 00:00:56,290 --> 00:00:59,250 Speaker 2: But asks Malcolm in this episode, what if we're not 13 00:00:59,610 --> 00:01:03,330 Speaker 2: learning valuable lessons from studying the truth about history? What 14 00:01:03,490 --> 00:01:08,330 Speaker 2: if instead we're watching pure fantasy, mistaking it for history 15 00:01:08,530 --> 00:01:12,850 Speaker 2: and drawing entirely the wrong conclusions. And by we, I 16 00:01:12,930 --> 00:01:16,970 Speaker 2: mean well the US Supreme Court. You can binge listen 17 00:01:17,010 --> 00:01:20,090 Speaker 2: to the whole series ad free by subscribing to Pushkin 18 00:01:20,170 --> 00:01:23,650 Speaker 2: Plus on Apple Podcasts or by visiting Pushkin dot fm, 19 00:01:23,690 --> 00:01:27,170 Speaker 2: Slash Plus, or hear the episodes each week in the 20 00:01:27,170 --> 00:01:31,050 Speaker 2: Revisionist History podcast feed. And now I am proud to 21 00:01:31,090 --> 00:01:35,610 Speaker 2: present on cautionary Tales this visionist history episode Getting out 22 00:01:35,650 --> 00:01:36,170 Speaker 2: of Dodge. 23 00:01:40,210 --> 00:01:43,330 Speaker 3: It isn't often that a writer or any man has 24 00:01:43,410 --> 00:01:46,530 Speaker 3: given an opportunity to destroy a figure he's always hated, 25 00:01:47,290 --> 00:01:50,130 Speaker 3: the character that all his life has cluttered his landscape 26 00:01:50,290 --> 00:01:54,290 Speaker 3: like a slum. And be able to do so and 27 00:01:54,330 --> 00:01:57,490 Speaker 3: get paid for up to boot is to be doubly blessed. 28 00:01:58,290 --> 00:02:01,210 Speaker 1: The co creator of the greatest television Western of all 29 00:02:01,250 --> 00:02:03,730 Speaker 1: time was a man named John Meston. 30 00:02:04,930 --> 00:02:09,530 Speaker 3: My knitted figure is the Western hero arrives along, pomping 31 00:02:09,530 --> 00:02:13,490 Speaker 3: his guitar and easily singing a synthetic ballad and looking 32 00:02:13,530 --> 00:02:16,610 Speaker 3: for all the world like a fugitive from a cheap circus. 33 00:02:17,490 --> 00:02:20,330 Speaker 3: I spit in his milk and he'll have to go 34 00:02:20,410 --> 00:02:22,570 Speaker 3: elsewhere to find somebody to pour the lead for his 35 00:02:22,730 --> 00:02:27,450 Speaker 3: golden bullets. Now, the best way to destroy something bad 36 00:02:28,210 --> 00:02:31,370 Speaker 3: is to write it down with something better. And I've 37 00:02:31,370 --> 00:02:33,930 Speaker 3: got a guy I think out classes any of these 38 00:02:34,010 --> 00:02:34,970 Speaker 3: phony big heads. 39 00:02:36,410 --> 00:02:40,490 Speaker 1: Mesting gave the world gun Smoke, which ran on CBS 40 00:02:40,730 --> 00:02:44,850 Speaker 1: for an astounding twenty seasons from nineteen fifty five to 41 00:02:44,930 --> 00:02:48,290 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, one of the most widely watched TV 42 00:02:48,370 --> 00:02:52,050 Speaker 1: shows ever When it's run finally ended, the La Times 43 00:02:52,130 --> 00:02:56,210 Speaker 1: film critic referred to it as our own Iliad and Odyssey, 44 00:02:56,770 --> 00:03:00,210 Speaker 1: only in the place of Odysseus and Achilles. Meston gave 45 00:03:00,290 --> 00:03:06,330 Speaker 1: us Matt Dillon lanky, laconic, impossibly brave, one of the 46 00:03:06,330 --> 00:03:09,810 Speaker 1: great reluctant heroes in televis in history. 47 00:03:12,010 --> 00:03:14,770 Speaker 3: His hair is probably red if he's got any left. 48 00:03:16,450 --> 00:03:19,970 Speaker 3: He'd be handsomer than he is if he had better manners. 49 00:03:20,210 --> 00:03:23,170 Speaker 3: But life and his enemies have left him looking a 50 00:03:23,170 --> 00:03:27,570 Speaker 3: little beat up. And I suppose having seen his mother 51 00:03:27,770 --> 00:03:31,090 Speaker 3: back about eighteen forty struggling to take a bath in 52 00:03:31,090 --> 00:03:35,130 Speaker 3: a wooden washtub with a fully undressing, left his soul 53 00:03:35,170 --> 00:03:39,570 Speaker 3: a little warped. Anyway, they'd have to be something wrong 54 00:03:39,610 --> 00:03:41,770 Speaker 3: with him, or he wouldn't have hired on as a 55 00:03:41,890 --> 00:03:45,330 Speaker 3: United States Marshal and the heyday of Dodge City, Kansas. 56 00:03:46,690 --> 00:03:48,970 Speaker 3: Dodge at that time was the wildest haunt in America, 57 00:03:49,810 --> 00:03:52,850 Speaker 3: and it was populated by men just as warped and 58 00:03:52,930 --> 00:03:54,450 Speaker 3: more so than Matt Dillon. 59 00:03:56,810 --> 00:04:00,090 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Glawell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 60 00:04:00,330 --> 00:04:05,770 Speaker 1: my podcast about things Overlooked and Misunderstood. This episode is 61 00:04:05,810 --> 00:04:10,930 Speaker 1: about Westerns and the long shadow they've cast across American life. 62 00:04:11,050 --> 00:04:14,690 Speaker 1: It's possible you've never thought about westerns, maybe you've never 63 00:04:14,730 --> 00:04:19,450 Speaker 1: even seen one, but your parents and particularly your grandparents 64 00:04:19,730 --> 00:04:24,090 Speaker 1: most certainly did. In the mid nineteen fifties, westerns took 65 00:04:24,170 --> 00:04:27,770 Speaker 1: up a third of all evening television viewing time. If 66 00:04:27,770 --> 00:04:29,930 Speaker 1: you lived in a major city, lake New York, you 67 00:04:30,010 --> 00:04:33,170 Speaker 1: had your choice of fifty one different westerns in a 68 00:04:33,210 --> 00:04:37,010 Speaker 1: given week. And what were westerns Well, they were stories 69 00:04:37,050 --> 00:04:39,850 Speaker 1: about big, strong men. The heroes of the top six 70 00:04:39,890 --> 00:04:43,290 Speaker 1: westerns of nineteen sixty two averaged six foot four and 71 00:04:43,330 --> 00:04:47,050 Speaker 1: two hundred and ten pounds, white, big strong men. There 72 00:04:47,130 --> 00:04:50,090 Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of ethnic variation in the TV Western. 73 00:04:50,410 --> 00:04:53,330 Speaker 1: There weren't a lot of women or families, even though 74 00:04:53,410 --> 00:04:56,010 Speaker 1: the reason all those pioneers moved to the Wild West 75 00:04:56,210 --> 00:04:59,450 Speaker 1: was of course, to provide a better life for their families. 76 00:05:00,090 --> 00:05:04,610 Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot of moral ambiguity or introspection or 77 00:05:04,650 --> 00:05:08,930 Speaker 1: shades of gray. These were action shows. But what was 78 00:05:09,130 --> 00:05:11,650 Speaker 1: is there are a lot of There were a lot 79 00:05:11,650 --> 00:05:16,610 Speaker 1: of guns, And in this installment of our series on 80 00:05:16,690 --> 00:05:19,570 Speaker 1: gun violence, I want to figure out what it means 81 00:05:19,810 --> 00:05:23,410 Speaker 1: that an entire generation of Americans grew up watching a 82 00:05:23,450 --> 00:05:26,810 Speaker 1: world in which big, strong men shot at each other 83 00:05:27,210 --> 00:05:30,730 Speaker 1: with guns in the absence of any kind of cultural 84 00:05:31,090 --> 00:05:36,930 Speaker 1: or moral or psychological ambiguity. Our case study gun Smoke, 85 00:05:37,250 --> 00:05:40,490 Speaker 1: the greatest of all the TV westerns, and one episode 86 00:05:40,570 --> 00:05:49,650 Speaker 1: in particular, Season one, episode eight Kites Reward. Picture a long, 87 00:05:49,770 --> 00:05:53,890 Speaker 1: dusty street straight out of the Old West, downtown Dodge City, 88 00:05:54,210 --> 00:05:57,290 Speaker 1: the most infamous of the cattle towns of the eighteen seventies. 89 00:05:57,930 --> 00:06:03,090 Speaker 1: Long row of ramshackle wooden buildings, bars, stables, a general store, 90 00:06:03,370 --> 00:06:07,530 Speaker 1: cowboys sauntering to and fro. Our hero Matt Dillon is 91 00:06:07,570 --> 00:06:10,930 Speaker 1: sitting on a porch talking to his friend Chester. They 92 00:06:10,970 --> 00:06:15,130 Speaker 1: spot a man, a stranger, lurking around the Long Branch saloon. 93 00:06:15,490 --> 00:06:20,210 Speaker 1: Then a second stranger, much younger, handsome, blonde, approaches on 94 00:06:20,410 --> 00:06:22,890 Speaker 1: horseback and dismounts. 95 00:06:23,410 --> 00:06:23,810 Speaker 4: Who's that? 96 00:06:28,370 --> 00:06:34,050 Speaker 5: I were sorry for it? It's on the trail hand 97 00:06:34,050 --> 00:06:36,410 Speaker 5: come to lose his wages ply. 98 00:06:39,090 --> 00:06:41,930 Speaker 1: The blonde man walks into a bar orders a beer. 99 00:06:42,250 --> 00:06:45,010 Speaker 1: The older man, the one who had been lurking, follows 100 00:06:45,050 --> 00:06:48,290 Speaker 1: him in, pulls out a sick shooter and says, in 101 00:06:48,330 --> 00:06:51,170 Speaker 1: that biting tone, peculiar to this era of TV. 102 00:06:51,290 --> 00:06:59,170 Speaker 3: Villain turn around, keep your hand away from that gun. 103 00:07:02,010 --> 00:07:03,250 Speaker 6: I'm gonna take your gun. 104 00:07:04,290 --> 00:07:04,890 Speaker 5: No you're not. 105 00:07:07,330 --> 00:07:09,290 Speaker 4: You want to die, don't matter, no me. 106 00:07:11,010 --> 00:07:12,850 Speaker 7: I'll go ahead, all right. 107 00:07:13,450 --> 00:07:15,810 Speaker 1: But the young man is much too quick for his foe. 108 00:07:16,010 --> 00:07:18,970 Speaker 1: He pulls out his revolver in what seems like a heartbeat. 109 00:07:20,250 --> 00:07:23,810 Speaker 1: His pursuer lies dead on the floor just as the 110 00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:27,370 Speaker 1: man of the law, Marshall Matt Dillon, comes rushing. 111 00:07:27,050 --> 00:07:32,250 Speaker 5: In self defense. Marshall, you saw it. I want your gun. 112 00:07:33,570 --> 00:07:36,010 Speaker 5: I ain't right of a self defense, pure and simple. 113 00:07:37,050 --> 00:07:45,530 Speaker 5: I said, I want your gun, all right, take it. 114 00:07:46,290 --> 00:07:51,730 Speaker 1: And Matt Dylon takes his gun away. Now let's pause 115 00:07:51,770 --> 00:07:56,650 Speaker 1: here because this is a hugely significant moment. First thing, 116 00:07:56,970 --> 00:07:59,890 Speaker 1: maybe an obvious thing, This whole scene is very American. 117 00:08:00,570 --> 00:08:02,850 Speaker 1: CBS made a Western sett in Canada at around the 118 00:08:02,890 --> 00:08:05,610 Speaker 1: same time. It was about a mounting named Sergeant Preston, 119 00:08:05,970 --> 00:08:09,010 Speaker 1: who went around saving damsels in distress with the aid 120 00:08:09,130 --> 00:08:14,050 Speaker 1: of an adorable dog named King. Sergeant Preston never resorted 121 00:08:14,050 --> 00:08:17,530 Speaker 1: to violence. He relied on his wit, his courage, and 122 00:08:17,570 --> 00:08:21,690 Speaker 1: the assistance of his adorable dog King. How did every 123 00:08:21,770 --> 00:08:26,530 Speaker 1: episode end? Sergeant Preston turns to King and says, well, King, 124 00:08:26,970 --> 00:08:30,610 Speaker 1: this case is closed. I mean, how Canadian is that. 125 00:08:30,930 --> 00:08:33,730 Speaker 1: It's one of my greatest regrets that during my Canadian 126 00:08:33,810 --> 00:08:36,610 Speaker 1: childhood we didn't have a television in our house, and 127 00:08:36,690 --> 00:08:38,210 Speaker 1: so I never got a chance to learn of the 128 00:08:38,290 --> 00:08:45,090 Speaker 1: role large fluffy dogs played in taming the Canadian North. Oh, 129 00:08:45,850 --> 00:08:50,050 Speaker 1: but gun smoke, that's a different story. Episodes of gun 130 00:08:50,090 --> 00:08:54,090 Speaker 1: Smoke did not end with Matt Dillon saying good doggie, 131 00:08:54,410 --> 00:08:58,690 Speaker 1: Good doggie. Second thing, why do we care so much 132 00:08:58,890 --> 00:09:03,650 Speaker 1: about gun smoke? Because, and this is important, I'm trying 133 00:09:03,650 --> 00:09:06,490 Speaker 1: to solve a puzzle having to do with the twenty 134 00:09:06,570 --> 00:09:09,810 Speaker 1: twenty two case of New York State Pistol and Rifle 135 00:09:09,850 --> 00:09:14,450 Speaker 1: Association the bruin the Landmark decision, where the Supreme Court 136 00:09:14,570 --> 00:09:18,250 Speaker 1: ruled that a New York state law restricting handgun licenses 137 00:09:18,690 --> 00:09:22,770 Speaker 1: was unconstitutional. If you listen to the first episode of 138 00:09:22,810 --> 00:09:25,690 Speaker 1: this mini series, which I dearly hope you do before 139 00:09:25,690 --> 00:09:28,690 Speaker 1: you listen to this one, you'll know I have strong 140 00:09:28,810 --> 00:09:32,730 Speaker 1: feelings about the Court's infatuation in that case with a 141 00:09:32,730 --> 00:09:37,410 Speaker 1: certain disputatious seventeenth century slave trader named Sir John Knight. 142 00:09:38,010 --> 00:09:42,370 Speaker 1: But here we are concerned with a broader puzzle. It 143 00:09:42,450 --> 00:09:47,210 Speaker 1: came during oral arguments. Oral arguments are a big deal. 144 00:09:47,850 --> 00:09:51,570 Speaker 1: Lawyers of both sides gathered to present their arguments publicly 145 00:09:52,010 --> 00:09:56,810 Speaker 1: before all the assembled justices. Arguments are tested, questions are asked, 146 00:09:57,050 --> 00:09:59,690 Speaker 1: The whole thing goes on for hours. It's Daniel in 147 00:09:59,730 --> 00:10:03,050 Speaker 1: the Lions, then one lawyer versus nine of the keenest 148 00:10:03,130 --> 00:10:09,330 Speaker 1: legal minds in the country. So November third, twenty twenty one, 149 00:10:09,410 --> 00:10:11,890 Speaker 1: the Solicitor General of the State of New York is 150 00:10:11,970 --> 00:10:15,890 Speaker 1: up at the front of the palatial hearing room. Barbara Underwood, 151 00:10:16,450 --> 00:10:20,410 Speaker 1: serious glasses, kindly smile, kind of looks like your grandmother, 152 00:10:20,610 --> 00:10:23,690 Speaker 1: that is, if your grandmother had argued twenty two cases 153 00:10:23,730 --> 00:10:26,170 Speaker 1: before the Supreme Court, Mister. 154 00:10:25,970 --> 00:10:30,330 Speaker 8: Chief Justice, and may please the Court. For centuries, English 155 00:10:30,370 --> 00:10:33,610 Speaker 8: and American law have imposed limits on carrying firearms in 156 00:10:33,650 --> 00:10:35,810 Speaker 8: public and the interests of public safety. 157 00:10:36,450 --> 00:10:39,770 Speaker 1: She begins with a detailed explanation of how New York 158 00:10:39,810 --> 00:10:43,250 Speaker 1: State is justified in not letting anyone carry a handgun 159 00:10:43,330 --> 00:10:47,010 Speaker 1: who wants to carry a handgun, But then she's interrupted 160 00:10:47,290 --> 00:10:50,930 Speaker 1: by Samuel Alito, one of the most conservative members of 161 00:10:50,930 --> 00:10:54,210 Speaker 1: the Court and almost certainly the grumpiest. 162 00:10:55,850 --> 00:11:00,690 Speaker 9: Could I explore what that means for ordinary law binding 163 00:11:01,290 --> 00:11:05,970 Speaker 9: citizens who feel they need to carry a firearm for 164 00:11:06,010 --> 00:11:08,890 Speaker 9: self defense. So I want you to think about people 165 00:11:09,210 --> 00:11:13,290 Speaker 9: like this, people who work late at night in Manhattan. 166 00:11:13,450 --> 00:11:16,130 Speaker 9: It might be somebody who cleans offices, might be a 167 00:11:16,170 --> 00:11:19,450 Speaker 9: doorman at an apartment, might be a nurse or an 168 00:11:19,570 --> 00:11:23,130 Speaker 9: orderly might be somebody who washes dishes. None of these 169 00:11:23,130 --> 00:11:26,810 Speaker 9: people has a criminal record. They're all law abiding citizens. 170 00:11:26,810 --> 00:11:31,010 Speaker 9: They get off work around midnight, maybe even after midnight. 171 00:11:31,050 --> 00:11:34,810 Speaker 9: They have to commute home by subway, maybe by bus. 172 00:11:35,330 --> 00:11:38,690 Speaker 9: When they arrive at the subway station or at the 173 00:11:38,730 --> 00:11:42,570 Speaker 9: bus stop, they have to walk some distance through a 174 00:11:42,690 --> 00:11:43,690 Speaker 9: high crime area. 175 00:11:44,290 --> 00:11:47,090 Speaker 1: They're scared to death, Alito said, So why shouldn't they 176 00:11:47,090 --> 00:11:51,370 Speaker 1: be allowed to carry a handgun on their subway right home? Now? 177 00:11:51,890 --> 00:11:54,850 Speaker 1: It should be pointed out that Barbara Underwood has spent 178 00:11:54,970 --> 00:11:59,210 Speaker 1: years working in the DA's office in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Queens. 179 00:11:59,650 --> 00:12:04,970 Speaker 1: She's a New Yorker, She's familiar with the subway. Alito, meanwhile, 180 00:12:05,210 --> 00:12:07,890 Speaker 1: is a kid from New Jersey, went to school up Princeton, 181 00:12:08,050 --> 00:12:10,570 Speaker 1: work most of his life in the New Jersey suburbs 182 00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:14,810 Speaker 1: before moving to the Washington, DC suburbs. I'm going to 183 00:12:14,850 --> 00:12:16,730 Speaker 1: guess that most of what he knows about the New 184 00:12:16,810 --> 00:12:19,850 Speaker 1: York subway is from old Beastie Boys videos that he 185 00:12:19,930 --> 00:12:25,810 Speaker 1: was trying to stop his kids from watching. So Underwood says, 186 00:12:26,130 --> 00:12:28,570 Speaker 1: as any long time subway rider would say. 187 00:12:29,010 --> 00:12:33,930 Speaker 8: I think the extra problem in Manhattan is that you're hypothetical, 188 00:12:34,210 --> 00:12:39,450 Speaker 8: quite appropriately entailed the subways, entailed public transit, and there 189 00:12:39,490 --> 00:12:42,610 Speaker 8: are lots of people on the subways even at midnight. 190 00:12:42,650 --> 00:12:47,090 Speaker 8: As I can say from personal experience and the particular 191 00:12:47,170 --> 00:12:50,890 Speaker 8: specter of a lot of armed people in an enclosed space. 192 00:12:51,930 --> 00:12:55,210 Speaker 9: There are a lot of armed people on the streets 193 00:12:55,250 --> 00:12:57,170 Speaker 9: of New York and in the subways late at night 194 00:12:57,250 --> 00:12:58,050 Speaker 9: right now, aren't there. 195 00:13:00,210 --> 00:13:02,290 Speaker 8: I don't know that there are a lot of armed people. 196 00:13:02,450 --> 00:13:06,850 Speaker 1: No first thing here. Alito clearly thinks New York City 197 00:13:07,170 --> 00:13:10,410 Speaker 1: is some kind of modern day Dodge City. It's not. 198 00:13:10,490 --> 00:13:12,930 Speaker 1: Of course, It's one of the safest big cities in 199 00:13:12,970 --> 00:13:15,930 Speaker 1: the country. The number of gun crimes per capita in 200 00:13:15,930 --> 00:13:18,370 Speaker 1: New York City is a fraction of what it is 201 00:13:18,410 --> 00:13:24,090 Speaker 1: in say, Jacksonville, Florida, or New Orleans or Birmingham, Alabama, 202 00:13:24,330 --> 00:13:28,050 Speaker 1: or literally dozens and dozens of other American cities. New 203 00:13:28,090 --> 00:13:31,450 Speaker 1: York City is an exception to the general tide of 204 00:13:31,530 --> 00:13:34,210 Speaker 1: violence in the United States, in part because of the 205 00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:37,610 Speaker 1: law that the Bruin case seeks to overturn. But whatever, 206 00:13:38,250 --> 00:13:42,290 Speaker 1: something about the idea of New York City makes Justice 207 00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:47,010 Speaker 1: Alito very nervous, and he thinks, as a result, the 208 00:13:47,050 --> 00:13:50,770 Speaker 1: prudent course for any late night commuter is to be 209 00:13:50,810 --> 00:13:55,610 Speaker 1: packing heat. But underward knows different. There are a lot 210 00:13:55,610 --> 00:13:58,250 Speaker 1: of people on the subway even at midnight. As I 211 00:13:58,290 --> 00:14:02,650 Speaker 1: can say from personal experience, lawyers work late lots and 212 00:14:02,690 --> 00:14:04,810 Speaker 1: lots of times. She's taken the two, or the three, 213 00:14:04,930 --> 00:14:06,970 Speaker 1: or the eight train back home at night. She did 214 00:14:07,010 --> 00:14:11,130 Speaker 1: not find the experience as terrifying as Justice Alito apparently 215 00:14:11,370 --> 00:14:15,370 Speaker 1: believes it to be. And as he's talking, she's clearly 216 00:14:15,410 --> 00:14:22,130 Speaker 1: imagining the alternate universe where Alito gets his way. It's 217 00:14:22,850 --> 00:14:26,130 Speaker 1: late at night. There's a confrontation at one end of 218 00:14:26,130 --> 00:14:29,890 Speaker 1: the car. One guy pulls a gun because, per Justice 219 00:14:29,930 --> 00:14:35,650 Speaker 1: Alito's instructions, he's come prepared for anything untoward happening. In response, 220 00:14:36,090 --> 00:14:38,930 Speaker 1: the other guy pulls his gun. The two of them 221 00:14:39,130 --> 00:14:42,170 Speaker 1: starts shooting, but of course they're terrified, and they're spraying 222 00:14:42,210 --> 00:14:45,970 Speaker 1: bullets everywhere, because handguns, as even the most devoted gun 223 00:14:46,050 --> 00:14:49,290 Speaker 1: lover will tell you, are really, really hard to shoot accurately, 224 00:14:49,850 --> 00:14:52,730 Speaker 1: even under the best of circumstances, with people who know 225 00:14:52,770 --> 00:14:56,010 Speaker 1: what they're doing and practice every day. And these are 226 00:14:56,050 --> 00:14:58,850 Speaker 1: not the best of circumstances. And these are not people 227 00:14:59,170 --> 00:15:03,890 Speaker 1: who practice every day. They are, in justice Alito's hypothetical doormen, 228 00:15:04,210 --> 00:15:08,130 Speaker 1: nurses and dishwashers, people who have worked long, hard days 229 00:15:08,410 --> 00:15:10,970 Speaker 1: and are exhaust and have kids at home and don't 230 00:15:11,010 --> 00:15:13,250 Speaker 1: exactly have the time to drive to a shooting range 231 00:15:13,290 --> 00:15:16,850 Speaker 1: every weekend and fire through two hundred rounds. So there's 232 00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:20,650 Speaker 1: bullets everywhere, and everyone else on the train is screaming 233 00:15:20,890 --> 00:15:23,250 Speaker 1: and rushing to one end of the car and hammering 234 00:15:23,250 --> 00:15:25,450 Speaker 1: on the doors and climbing over each other to get out, 235 00:15:25,450 --> 00:15:28,210 Speaker 1: but of course they can't. There's glass everywhere because one 236 00:15:28,250 --> 00:15:30,970 Speaker 1: of those errant shots took out a window, blood on 237 00:15:31,010 --> 00:15:33,690 Speaker 1: the floor. A third person and then a fourth pull 238 00:15:33,690 --> 00:15:37,050 Speaker 1: out their handguns because everyone's gotten a handgun fever. And 239 00:15:37,250 --> 00:15:40,010 Speaker 1: just then the train goes underneath the East River for 240 00:15:40,050 --> 00:15:42,610 Speaker 1: like two minutes and the lights go out, which they 241 00:15:42,650 --> 00:15:47,330 Speaker 1: sometimes do I mean, I guarantee you, as someone who 242 00:15:47,370 --> 00:15:50,930 Speaker 1: has taken the subways, like Barbara Underwood for most of 243 00:15:50,970 --> 00:15:54,210 Speaker 1: my adult life, this is the number one night mer 244 00:15:54,290 --> 00:15:59,930 Speaker 1: scenario of every single New Yorker, but not for Samuel 245 00:16:00,050 --> 00:16:12,250 Speaker 1: Alito of Hamilton Township, New Jersey. 246 00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:13,970 Speaker 10: With illegal guns. 247 00:16:13,450 --> 00:16:17,010 Speaker 9: I'm talking about how many illegal guns were seized by 248 00:16:17,090 --> 00:16:21,850 Speaker 9: the by the New York Police Department last year. Do 249 00:16:21,890 --> 00:16:22,650 Speaker 9: you have any idea. 250 00:16:22,890 --> 00:16:25,450 Speaker 8: I don't have that number, but I'm sure it's a 251 00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:26,250 Speaker 8: substantial number. 252 00:16:26,290 --> 00:16:29,090 Speaker 9: But the people are all these people with illegal guns, 253 00:16:29,090 --> 00:16:31,890 Speaker 9: they are on the subway, they're walking around the streets. 254 00:16:31,930 --> 00:16:35,730 Speaker 9: But the ordinary, hardworking, law abiding people I mentioned, no, 255 00:16:36,090 --> 00:16:37,210 Speaker 9: they can't be armed. 256 00:16:38,530 --> 00:16:41,770 Speaker 1: Samuel Alito is in the grip of a peculiar and 257 00:16:41,890 --> 00:16:45,570 Speaker 1: powerful fantasy. It says that below the surface of one 258 00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:48,330 Speaker 1: of the safest cities in the country, late at night, 259 00:16:48,890 --> 00:16:53,210 Speaker 1: all rules of civilization have been suspended. You're on your own. 260 00:16:53,850 --> 00:16:56,690 Speaker 1: And Barbara Underwood, who no doubt prepared long and hard 261 00:16:56,730 --> 00:16:58,610 Speaker 1: for this day before the highest court in the land, 262 00:16:58,810 --> 00:17:00,810 Speaker 1: does not seem to have prepared for this. I mean, 263 00:17:00,850 --> 00:17:04,290 Speaker 1: who would how would she have guessed that Samuel Alito 264 00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:06,810 Speaker 1: thinks the A train is Lord of the flies. 265 00:17:08,010 --> 00:17:10,730 Speaker 8: Well, I think the subway. When there are problems on 266 00:17:10,730 --> 00:17:15,650 Speaker 8: the subways are protected by the transit police, is what happens, 267 00:17:15,690 --> 00:17:19,250 Speaker 8: because the idea of proliferating arms on the subway is 268 00:17:19,330 --> 00:17:26,370 Speaker 8: precisely I think what terrifies a great many people. The 269 00:17:26,410 --> 00:17:30,370 Speaker 8: other point is that proliferating guns in a populated area 270 00:17:30,450 --> 00:17:34,530 Speaker 8: where there is law enforcement jeopardizes law enforcement because when 271 00:17:34,570 --> 00:17:38,810 Speaker 8: they come, they now can't tell who's shooting, and the 272 00:17:38,930 --> 00:17:43,450 Speaker 8: shooting proliferates and accelerates. 273 00:17:44,490 --> 00:17:48,170 Speaker 1: She's trying really, really hard at this point, not just 274 00:17:48,210 --> 00:17:51,250 Speaker 1: to say, are you effing kidding me? Jersey Boy? Have 275 00:17:51,410 --> 00:17:55,770 Speaker 1: you ever ridden a subway before? But Barbara Underwood is 276 00:17:55,810 --> 00:17:59,250 Speaker 1: a lawyer of long experience. Her obligation is to her client, 277 00:17:59,610 --> 00:18:04,290 Speaker 1: not her own mounting feelings of incredulity. So she takes 278 00:18:04,290 --> 00:18:06,690 Speaker 1: a deep breath and holds it in. 279 00:18:07,570 --> 00:18:12,450 Speaker 8: And in the end, that's why there is a substantial 280 00:18:12,530 --> 00:18:18,610 Speaker 8: law enforcement interest in not having widespread carrying of guns. 281 00:18:20,130 --> 00:18:24,610 Speaker 1: So here's the puzzle. Where did this completely lunatic idea 282 00:18:24,690 --> 00:18:29,490 Speaker 1: come from? How did Samuel Alito Legal powerhouse come up 283 00:18:29,530 --> 00:18:32,410 Speaker 1: with this weird, violent fantasy with the best path to 284 00:18:32,490 --> 00:18:35,810 Speaker 1: ensuring the safety of a subway rider is to encourage 285 00:18:35,810 --> 00:18:39,090 Speaker 1: that writer and all of his fellow commuters to stuff 286 00:18:39,130 --> 00:18:42,090 Speaker 1: a handgun in their waistband and face down their assailant 287 00:18:42,370 --> 00:18:45,810 Speaker 1: Mono Amano on the A train as it passes underneath 288 00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:50,810 Speaker 1: the East River. There are countless law review articles devoted 289 00:18:50,810 --> 00:18:53,210 Speaker 1: to the origins of the American love affair with guns, 290 00:18:53,850 --> 00:18:56,930 Speaker 1: histories of the evolution of our thinking about the Second Amendment. 291 00:18:57,490 --> 00:19:00,890 Speaker 1: When confronted with a powerful idea, we assume that it 292 00:19:00,930 --> 00:19:05,610 Speaker 1: has deep and serious roots. But come on, this isn't 293 00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:11,370 Speaker 1: an idea. It's a fantasy. And where do fantasies come 294 00:19:11,410 --> 00:19:15,170 Speaker 1: from from? The stories were told in childhood. When I 295 00:19:15,210 --> 00:19:18,290 Speaker 1: look at grown up Samuel Alito dreaming about bad guys 296 00:19:18,290 --> 00:19:21,410 Speaker 1: on the A train, I think of little Samuel Alito 297 00:19:21,850 --> 00:19:25,650 Speaker 1: growing up in the nineteen fifties in Hamilton Township, New Jersey, 298 00:19:26,370 --> 00:19:29,890 Speaker 1: and I wonder did he watch one too many episodes 299 00:19:30,290 --> 00:19:36,250 Speaker 1: of gun Smoke, in particular episode eight from season one, 300 00:19:36,610 --> 00:19:54,970 Speaker 1: Kite's Reward. In the eighteen seventies, cattle would be herded 301 00:19:55,010 --> 00:19:58,690 Speaker 1: to market from Texas to Kansas up to the so 302 00:19:58,810 --> 00:20:02,530 Speaker 1: called cattle towns that were junction points connected to major 303 00:20:02,610 --> 00:20:06,930 Speaker 1: railway lines. The longest lived and most infamous of those 304 00:20:06,930 --> 00:20:12,130 Speaker 1: cattle towns was Dodge City. It sits on the banks 305 00:20:12,170 --> 00:20:14,930 Speaker 1: of the Arkansas River and was connected by rail to 306 00:20:15,010 --> 00:20:19,330 Speaker 1: the east to Kansas City. In its heyday, Dark City 307 00:20:19,450 --> 00:20:23,290 Speaker 1: was like Fort Lauderdale during spring break, only with a 308 00:20:23,330 --> 00:20:26,930 Speaker 1: fraction of the girls, just lots of young men, alcohol 309 00:20:27,250 --> 00:20:33,410 Speaker 1: and guns. Twelve hundred full time residents, nineteen bars, filled 310 00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:38,370 Speaker 1: with fortune seekers, buffalo hunters, cowboys, gamblers, desperadoes, what they 311 00:20:38,410 --> 00:20:43,130 Speaker 1: call in Western's hard characters. Here's a typical Dodge City 312 00:20:43,210 --> 00:20:46,890 Speaker 1: story that appeared in the Witchtop Beacon in November of 313 00:20:46,970 --> 00:20:52,370 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy two. Three or four Texas men, the paper reported, 314 00:20:52,890 --> 00:20:55,690 Speaker 1: took over the Kelley and Hunt dance hall. One of 315 00:20:55,730 --> 00:20:58,690 Speaker 1: them made whiskey and sugar free to everybody, while the 316 00:20:58,730 --> 00:21:02,610 Speaker 1: others kept up the dance music and condiments until daylight. 317 00:21:03,450 --> 00:21:06,010 Speaker 1: I think you're getting the picture. The article goes on. 318 00:21:06,490 --> 00:21:09,970 Speaker 1: The dance room was also occupied by a gambling outfit. 319 00:21:10,570 --> 00:21:14,450 Speaker 1: Oh okay, One of the Texas men who were giving 320 00:21:14,450 --> 00:21:16,970 Speaker 1: away the free booze and sugar accuses one of the 321 00:21:16,970 --> 00:21:20,690 Speaker 1: gamblers of cheating. End quote. Grabbed up the entire wealth 322 00:21:20,730 --> 00:21:25,170 Speaker 1: of the concern to appropriate it unquote. Whereupon one of 323 00:21:25,210 --> 00:21:28,970 Speaker 1: the gamblers fractured skull of one of the Texans with 324 00:21:29,050 --> 00:21:32,130 Speaker 1: a six shooter. He dies. The cowboys come to the 325 00:21:32,130 --> 00:21:34,690 Speaker 1: aid of their fallen comrade. There's a gun battle, two 326 00:21:34,770 --> 00:21:37,890 Speaker 1: more shot dead, a third wounded. The bodies are thrown 327 00:21:37,930 --> 00:21:41,810 Speaker 1: out onto the street. And here's the crucial detail, the 328 00:21:41,850 --> 00:21:48,370 Speaker 1: party goes merrily on. That's Dodge City. As you can imagine, 329 00:21:48,490 --> 00:21:51,290 Speaker 1: the tabloids of the era couldn't get enough of this. 330 00:21:52,090 --> 00:21:54,770 Speaker 1: The expression, which I'm sure you've heard, We've got to 331 00:21:54,770 --> 00:21:59,250 Speaker 1: get out of Dodge is a reference to Dodge City. 332 00:22:00,250 --> 00:22:03,690 Speaker 1: So what is Gun Smoke. It's a TV show set 333 00:22:03,730 --> 00:22:06,770 Speaker 1: in Dodge City, where the hero, Matt Dillon, has the 334 00:22:06,890 --> 00:22:10,570 Speaker 1: job of restoring law and order amidst to mayhem. Every 335 00:22:10,570 --> 00:22:13,330 Speaker 1: other episode begins with a shot of Dylan squaring off 336 00:22:13,330 --> 00:22:15,690 Speaker 1: against a bad guy in the main street of Dodge 337 00:22:16,370 --> 00:22:19,650 Speaker 1: He outdraws him, shoots the bad guy dead. Then after 338 00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:22,850 Speaker 1: the credits, we see Dylan walking through a cemetery where 339 00:22:22,890 --> 00:22:26,650 Speaker 1: all the many dead are buried, and in voiceover, delivering 340 00:22:26,850 --> 00:22:30,450 Speaker 1: a little homily about the enormous weight on his shoulders. 341 00:22:31,570 --> 00:22:34,850 Speaker 6: They all drifted here to Dodge City one time or another, 342 00:22:35,450 --> 00:22:40,210 Speaker 6: the Buffalo Killers, the saddle Bums, the spoilers. It's the 343 00:22:40,290 --> 00:22:42,210 Speaker 6: end of the track and the start of the wilderness, 344 00:22:42,290 --> 00:22:45,170 Speaker 6: the dumping ground of odds and ends and beginnings and leftovers. 345 00:22:45,690 --> 00:22:47,570 Speaker 6: It's a place to stop and take the kind of 346 00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:50,490 Speaker 6: pleasure you need. It's a place to pass through, and 347 00:22:50,610 --> 00:22:54,810 Speaker 6: sometimes it's a place to die. 348 00:22:55,090 --> 00:22:59,850 Speaker 1: So episode eight, Season one, Kite's Reward. The young blonde 349 00:22:59,850 --> 00:23:02,890 Speaker 1: man's name is Andy. He's just shot the stranger dead. 350 00:23:03,370 --> 00:23:06,570 Speaker 1: Dylan has taken his gun. They go back to Dylan's office, 351 00:23:06,770 --> 00:23:08,530 Speaker 1: where Andy is given a lecture. 352 00:23:09,090 --> 00:23:11,170 Speaker 4: I'm sure come running after you in a hurry, didn't it. 353 00:23:11,490 --> 00:23:14,330 Speaker 5: What's a man supposed to do in this town? Stand 354 00:23:14,330 --> 00:23:16,130 Speaker 5: there and take a belly full of bullets. 355 00:23:16,810 --> 00:23:19,770 Speaker 1: Then Dylan says, I can give you back your gun, 356 00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:22,650 Speaker 1: but I think you shouldn't wear one anymore. You're too 357 00:23:22,730 --> 00:23:25,570 Speaker 1: good with it. You're going to get a reputation. People 358 00:23:25,570 --> 00:23:27,610 Speaker 1: will come after you to see if they can best you. 359 00:23:28,410 --> 00:23:31,570 Speaker 4: It happened to me on Sandy, that's happening to you. 360 00:23:36,450 --> 00:23:38,250 Speaker 4: Anybody who can use a gun the way you can 361 00:23:38,330 --> 00:23:41,850 Speaker 4: has to make a choice. You can go on using it, 362 00:23:42,970 --> 00:23:44,970 Speaker 4: or you can quit before you get blood all over you. 363 00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:48,690 Speaker 1: They have a heart to heart. Dylan is the wise 364 00:23:48,730 --> 00:23:52,770 Speaker 1: father figure. Andy clearly never had. Dylan. Why don't you 365 00:23:52,850 --> 00:23:56,690 Speaker 1: quit wearing it? Andy, I don't know. I'd feel kind 366 00:23:56,690 --> 00:23:57,570 Speaker 1: of naked, I guess. 367 00:23:58,370 --> 00:24:01,570 Speaker 4: Dylan persists, it's going to be one man after the 368 00:24:01,610 --> 00:24:03,570 Speaker 4: other from now on. You're gonna have to kill, whether 369 00:24:03,610 --> 00:24:06,610 Speaker 4: you like it or not. But I'm not gonna watch it. 370 00:24:08,170 --> 00:24:08,330 Speaker 3: Now. 371 00:24:08,370 --> 00:24:10,130 Speaker 4: You leave that gun off, or you get out of 372 00:24:10,170 --> 00:24:12,010 Speaker 4: dodge and go do your killing somewhere else. 373 00:24:13,090 --> 00:24:17,610 Speaker 1: Finally, Andy agrees, unbuckles his gun belt, hands over his 374 00:24:17,690 --> 00:24:21,930 Speaker 1: six shooter and holster. All right, let's pause once again 375 00:24:22,130 --> 00:24:25,730 Speaker 1: because there are so many things to discuss. First of all, 376 00:24:25,890 --> 00:24:28,850 Speaker 1: let's deal with a non trivial matter of the homicide 377 00:24:28,890 --> 00:24:32,730 Speaker 1: that just occurred inside the Long Branch Saloon. To help 378 00:24:32,770 --> 00:24:36,210 Speaker 1: put this event in some kind of statistical perspective, I 379 00:24:36,290 --> 00:24:44,250 Speaker 1: recruited the services of my very able assistant and producer, Talayama. Okay, 380 00:24:44,370 --> 00:24:47,450 Speaker 1: so I a couple of weeks ago, I gave you 381 00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:51,650 Speaker 1: an assignment. Just describe firs the assignment. 382 00:24:52,490 --> 00:24:56,330 Speaker 11: So the assignment was to watch Well, first, you said 383 00:24:56,410 --> 00:25:01,530 Speaker 11: to watch all of gun smoke, which is bitish. Yeah, 384 00:25:01,530 --> 00:25:04,810 Speaker 11: it's like twenty seasons something like that. But then the 385 00:25:04,850 --> 00:25:08,410 Speaker 11: assignment turned into watching the first two seasons of Gun Smoke. 386 00:25:09,210 --> 00:25:13,930 Speaker 1: Tali ordered the complete Gun Smoke collection on DVD. Do 387 00:25:14,010 --> 00:25:15,810 Speaker 1: you even know what a DVD is? 388 00:25:15,970 --> 00:25:16,090 Speaker 3: Like? 389 00:25:16,290 --> 00:25:18,610 Speaker 1: This is like so prior generation. 390 00:25:19,850 --> 00:25:22,370 Speaker 11: Oh, I grew up watching DVDs. 391 00:25:22,610 --> 00:25:23,730 Speaker 1: Just check it, just check it. 392 00:25:24,890 --> 00:25:28,010 Speaker 11: But I don't have a DVD player, So I got 393 00:25:28,050 --> 00:25:31,130 Speaker 11: the DVDs and then I wound up having to watch 394 00:25:31,290 --> 00:25:35,210 Speaker 11: on my roommate's PS four, which was kind of funny. 395 00:25:35,690 --> 00:25:37,890 Speaker 1: This is the first time in human history. Seven watched 396 00:25:37,890 --> 00:25:42,650 Speaker 1: Gun Smoke on a PS four I think it's that station. 397 00:25:43,890 --> 00:25:47,530 Speaker 1: There are thirty nine episodes per season, so Tali watched 398 00:25:47,850 --> 00:25:53,170 Speaker 1: seventy eight in total, a statistically representative sample. Yeah. 399 00:25:53,210 --> 00:25:58,410 Speaker 11: So the assignment was to watch every episode and make 400 00:25:58,450 --> 00:26:01,610 Speaker 11: a note of anytime there's a gunshot and anytime there's 401 00:26:01,650 --> 00:26:07,050 Speaker 11: a homicide. So I counted anytime somebody was killed on purpose. 402 00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:12,530 Speaker 11: So there's a few instants, says of someone accidentally getting shot, 403 00:26:12,570 --> 00:26:16,010 Speaker 11: and I didn't count that as homicide and wash. 404 00:26:16,770 --> 00:26:20,850 Speaker 1: And then you you created a kind of an Excel spreadsheet. Yeah, 405 00:26:21,490 --> 00:26:24,930 Speaker 1: and in which you did you also described the nature 406 00:26:25,010 --> 00:26:30,930 Speaker 1: of the shooting. Yes, yes, And so give me the 407 00:26:31,210 --> 00:26:33,850 Speaker 1: give me the bottom line on the statistics of number 408 00:26:33,890 --> 00:26:37,930 Speaker 1: of gunshots and homicides in the first two seasons of 409 00:26:38,610 --> 00:26:39,170 Speaker 1: Gun Smoke. 410 00:26:39,850 --> 00:26:42,170 Speaker 11: All right, let me just pull this up really quick. 411 00:26:43,490 --> 00:26:43,850 Speaker 10: Okay. 412 00:26:43,930 --> 00:26:49,370 Speaker 11: So starting with season one, MM, we had a total 413 00:26:49,410 --> 00:26:54,250 Speaker 11: of two hundred and twelve gun shots in the whole season, 414 00:26:55,210 --> 00:26:59,850 Speaker 11: and this includes gunshots in the air just to scare 415 00:26:59,930 --> 00:27:02,970 Speaker 11: people or something like that. And then of those two 416 00:27:03,010 --> 00:27:06,890 Speaker 11: hundred and twelve, one hundred and thirty two were shots 417 00:27:06,930 --> 00:27:11,730 Speaker 11: specifically pointed at people. There were fifty nine homicides, and 418 00:27:11,850 --> 00:27:15,290 Speaker 11: forty six of those homicides were from gunshots. 419 00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:18,170 Speaker 1: Okay. And then season two. 420 00:27:18,570 --> 00:27:21,930 Speaker 11: So the number of gunshots that I counted for season 421 00:27:21,970 --> 00:27:25,690 Speaker 11: two was one hundred and fifty one. Of those, there 422 00:27:25,770 --> 00:27:32,490 Speaker 11: were fifty two homicides, and of the gunshots in total 423 00:27:32,530 --> 00:27:37,290 Speaker 11: in the season, one hundred and eleven were pointed specifically 424 00:27:37,330 --> 00:27:37,930 Speaker 11: at people. 425 00:27:39,570 --> 00:27:41,890 Speaker 1: As far as I can tell, Tali performed the first 426 00:27:41,890 --> 00:27:46,930 Speaker 1: ever statistically rigorous forensic analysis of the Gun Smoke archive, 427 00:27:48,370 --> 00:27:51,930 Speaker 1: you know, telling I went, I used those numbers and 428 00:27:52,010 --> 00:27:56,530 Speaker 1: I calculated independently what the homicide rape per one hundred 429 00:27:56,610 --> 00:28:02,930 Speaker 1: thousand is for the town of Dodge as depicted in Gunsmoke, 430 00:28:03,730 --> 00:28:08,090 Speaker 1: and that works out given there's twelve hundred people in 431 00:28:08,530 --> 00:28:11,970 Speaker 1: Dodge a homicide rate of I think forty nine hundred 432 00:28:12,010 --> 00:28:16,770 Speaker 1: and seventeen per one hundred thousand, which would be like 433 00:28:17,010 --> 00:28:20,130 Speaker 1: eight times higher than the highest homicide rate in any 434 00:28:20,170 --> 00:28:23,730 Speaker 1: city in the United States today. God, it's like the 435 00:28:23,730 --> 00:28:27,330 Speaker 1: most murderous. It's the most There was one episode where 436 00:28:27,370 --> 00:28:28,370 Speaker 1: eight people were killed. 437 00:28:29,290 --> 00:28:32,090 Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, that was all it once too, I remember 438 00:28:32,130 --> 00:28:32,770 Speaker 11: that episode. 439 00:28:33,090 --> 00:28:37,530 Speaker 1: That's a mass shooting. Yes, the writers of Gunsmoke were 440 00:28:37,570 --> 00:28:42,570 Speaker 1: committed to portraying Dodge City as a very, very dangerous place. 441 00:28:43,970 --> 00:28:48,250 Speaker 1: Now was Dodge in real life that dangerous? Was it 442 00:28:48,410 --> 00:28:51,290 Speaker 1: actually the case that a river of blood flowed through 443 00:28:51,290 --> 00:28:53,610 Speaker 1: the center of Dodge City, Kansas. In the latter half 444 00:28:53,650 --> 00:28:56,810 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, there was so much myth making 445 00:28:56,850 --> 00:28:59,570 Speaker 1: that surrounded Dodge City that for the longest time, people 446 00:28:59,610 --> 00:29:03,410 Speaker 1: assumed that the mythical Dodge City and the actual Dodge 447 00:29:03,450 --> 00:29:07,490 Speaker 1: City were the same. This was the wild West. But 448 00:29:07,530 --> 00:29:11,330 Speaker 1: a homicide is as a matter of record, towns, even 449 00:29:11,490 --> 00:29:16,450 Speaker 1: deeply dysfunctional towns, collect death certificates. They have newspapers that 450 00:29:16,530 --> 00:29:21,570 Speaker 1: report on murders, court records that document criminal trials, graveyards 451 00:29:21,730 --> 00:29:25,570 Speaker 1: where people are buried, and in the nineteen sixties a 452 00:29:25,730 --> 00:29:28,850 Speaker 1: historian named Robert Dykster decided to fact chuck the claims 453 00:29:28,850 --> 00:29:34,570 Speaker 1: about Dodge City. Here's what he discovered. In eighteen seventy two, 454 00:29:35,050 --> 00:29:38,610 Speaker 1: the year Dodge City was founded, the homicide count was eighteen, 455 00:29:39,410 --> 00:29:42,290 Speaker 1: which in a town of twelve hundred people is nuts, 456 00:29:42,770 --> 00:29:44,930 Speaker 1: but that was before the town had a police force. 457 00:29:45,530 --> 00:29:48,450 Speaker 1: They promptly got themselves a county sheriff, and for the 458 00:29:48,490 --> 00:29:51,490 Speaker 1: next couple of years there are no homicides at all. 459 00:29:52,170 --> 00:29:55,090 Speaker 1: And for the eleven years that follow until the cattle 460 00:29:55,170 --> 00:29:59,730 Speaker 1: trading period ends, Dodge City averages one point six homicides 461 00:29:59,770 --> 00:30:02,450 Speaker 1: a year, which is still a lot for a small town, 462 00:30:02,770 --> 00:30:05,090 Speaker 1: but not that bad for a place that's basically spring 463 00:30:05,210 --> 00:30:10,090 Speaker 1: Break on steroids. The real Dodge City is nothing like 464 00:30:10,170 --> 00:30:13,410 Speaker 1: the mythical Dodge City. The real Dodge City is proof 465 00:30:13,650 --> 00:30:16,890 Speaker 1: that law and order works. You bring in a lawman 466 00:30:17,090 --> 00:30:19,930 Speaker 1: and the place goes back to normal, which is one 467 00:30:20,050 --> 00:30:23,850 Speaker 1: hundred percent the opposite lesson of television's Dodge City, isn't 468 00:30:23,890 --> 00:30:27,450 Speaker 1: it Gunsmok says that you can be blessed with a diligent, 469 00:30:27,690 --> 00:30:33,250 Speaker 1: wise rangy, indefatigable, courageous US Marshal, the legendary Matt Dillon, 470 00:30:33,490 --> 00:30:36,250 Speaker 1: and he will invariably catch the bad guy and gun 471 00:30:36,330 --> 00:30:38,570 Speaker 1: him down on the street. But at the very thing 472 00:30:38,610 --> 00:30:41,850 Speaker 1: that police are supposed to do and in fact do 473 00:30:42,010 --> 00:30:45,210 Speaker 1: in the real world, that is, stop murders from happening, 474 00:30:45,650 --> 00:30:50,410 Speaker 1: Matt Dillon is helpless. He's the US Marshal for Dodge 475 00:30:50,410 --> 00:30:55,050 Speaker 1: City for twenty seasons, and the bodies just keep piling up. 476 00:30:55,290 --> 00:30:57,490 Speaker 1: He's the head of law enforcement in a town with 477 00:30:57,530 --> 00:31:02,010 Speaker 1: an implied homicide rate eighty times higher than Saint Louis, Missouri, 478 00:31:02,250 --> 00:31:05,570 Speaker 1: the murder capital of the Western world. He's terrible at 479 00:31:05,570 --> 00:31:07,970 Speaker 1: his job. He should have been run out of town, 480 00:31:10,530 --> 00:31:15,010 Speaker 1: and yet he is not, because in the bizarre fantasy 481 00:31:15,130 --> 00:31:18,090 Speaker 1: being peddled by gun Smoke, there are so many bad 482 00:31:18,130 --> 00:31:21,330 Speaker 1: guys and so many guns, and so many shootouts and 483 00:31:21,410 --> 00:31:26,530 Speaker 1: bars that every man must take responsibility for protecting himself. 484 00:31:27,690 --> 00:31:30,130 Speaker 1: If you have a quiet drink at the Long Branch 485 00:31:30,210 --> 00:31:33,130 Speaker 1: saloon and a stranger comes in with an itchy finger, 486 00:31:33,570 --> 00:31:36,890 Speaker 1: you have to be prepared to defend yourself. It's up 487 00:31:36,930 --> 00:31:40,610 Speaker 1: to you because there's no guarantee that Mount Dillon will 488 00:31:40,690 --> 00:31:44,290 Speaker 1: rush in in time to help you. Now do I 489 00:31:44,370 --> 00:31:49,050 Speaker 1: worry that? Lesson reverberated with little Sammy Alito watching gun 490 00:31:49,050 --> 00:31:52,130 Speaker 1: smoke on his parents Black and White RCA back in 491 00:31:52,170 --> 00:31:56,850 Speaker 1: Hamilton Downship, New Jersey. Yes, I do. By the way, 492 00:31:57,210 --> 00:32:01,010 Speaker 1: it wasn't just Aledo. Right after Aledo goes off on 493 00:32:01,090 --> 00:32:03,330 Speaker 1: his strange rant about the perils of the a train, 494 00:32:03,690 --> 00:32:08,130 Speaker 1: guess who chimes in Justice Brett Kavanaugh. Of course he does. 495 00:32:08,490 --> 00:32:11,770 Speaker 1: Brett cave I, a child of the Washington DC suburbs 496 00:32:11,930 --> 00:32:15,290 Speaker 1: whose only experience of mass transit was being carpooled to 497 00:32:15,370 --> 00:32:18,290 Speaker 1: private school in the back of his mother's Dodge minivan. 498 00:32:19,170 --> 00:32:21,930 Speaker 5: What if you're a runner, you say, I run a lot, 499 00:32:23,290 --> 00:32:25,770 Speaker 5: And as you correctly pointed out earlier, there are a 500 00:32:25,810 --> 00:32:28,130 Speaker 5: lot of serious violent crimes on a running pass. 501 00:32:28,210 --> 00:32:29,530 Speaker 10: Real problem. 502 00:32:30,250 --> 00:32:34,770 Speaker 1: It's a real problem, just as Kavanaugh now wonders if 503 00:32:34,810 --> 00:32:37,490 Speaker 1: the Runners of New York would be well served strapping 504 00:32:37,490 --> 00:32:40,370 Speaker 1: on a glock in order to defend themselves against the 505 00:32:40,450 --> 00:32:44,330 Speaker 1: murderous grievances of their fellow joggers as they charged their 506 00:32:44,370 --> 00:32:49,890 Speaker 1: way around the Central Park Reservoir. If Barbara Underwood was 507 00:32:49,930 --> 00:32:54,250 Speaker 1: taken aback by Sam Alido, then Cavanagh. I mean, she's like, 508 00:32:54,690 --> 00:32:58,570 Speaker 1: what is happening? She tries to explain, Have you thought 509 00:32:58,610 --> 00:33:01,730 Speaker 1: about what would happen if New York issued a handgun 510 00:33:01,850 --> 00:33:03,330 Speaker 1: to anyone who wanted one. 511 00:33:04,410 --> 00:33:06,690 Speaker 8: The problem with the shall Issho resumes is that they 512 00:33:06,970 --> 00:33:12,610 Speaker 8: multiply the number of firearms that are being carried in 513 00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:17,330 Speaker 8: very densely populated places, and there is a much higher risk. 514 00:33:17,690 --> 00:33:21,130 Speaker 8: Without assuming any ill intent on the part of the 515 00:33:21,170 --> 00:33:27,650 Speaker 8: carriers of weapons, they greatly proliferate the likelihood that mistakes 516 00:33:27,650 --> 00:33:29,570 Speaker 8: will be made, fights will break out. 517 00:33:30,770 --> 00:33:34,450 Speaker 1: Barbara Underwood dearly does not want to find herself in 518 00:33:34,490 --> 00:33:36,970 Speaker 1: the middle of a gun battle when she walks her 519 00:33:37,010 --> 00:33:40,530 Speaker 1: dog around the reservoir on a Sunday morning. But she's 520 00:33:40,570 --> 00:33:44,170 Speaker 1: not up against a rational argument here. She's up against 521 00:33:44,490 --> 00:33:48,010 Speaker 1: a fantasy, a fantasy shared by a whole group of 522 00:33:48,050 --> 00:33:51,330 Speaker 1: middle aged men on the Supreme Court, the fantasies of 523 00:33:51,370 --> 00:33:54,690 Speaker 1: little boys who once spent too many hours in front 524 00:33:54,690 --> 00:34:07,170 Speaker 1: of the television. The heyday of Dodge City, the real 525 00:34:07,330 --> 00:34:10,890 Speaker 1: Dodge City, with the invention of one of the most 526 00:34:10,930 --> 00:34:14,250 Speaker 1: important firearms of that era, maybe one of the top 527 00:34:14,330 --> 00:34:19,410 Speaker 1: five most important weapons ever the six shooter patented by 528 00:34:19,410 --> 00:34:23,490 Speaker 1: Samuel Colt, perfected by mister Smith and mister Wesson. 529 00:34:24,290 --> 00:34:27,290 Speaker 12: So revolvers were fairly easy to get by about eighteen fifty, 530 00:34:27,570 --> 00:34:31,050 Speaker 12: but by eighteen seventy and eighteen eighty you could order 531 00:34:31,090 --> 00:34:33,130 Speaker 12: them for just a few dollars through a catalog. It 532 00:34:33,210 --> 00:34:36,690 Speaker 12: was incredible the number of revolvers that were in that 533 00:34:36,770 --> 00:34:40,610 Speaker 12: were available and circulating in public as compared to decades past. 534 00:34:41,330 --> 00:34:45,890 Speaker 1: That's the historian Brennan reeves the pistols of the early 535 00:34:46,010 --> 00:34:51,290 Speaker 1: nineteenth century were cumbersome, unreliable, inaccurate. People were more worried 536 00:34:51,290 --> 00:34:54,610 Speaker 1: about bowie knives than they were about handguns. The arrival 537 00:34:54,730 --> 00:34:58,970 Speaker 1: of the revolver changed all that. The inventionable weapon with 538 00:34:59,050 --> 00:35:02,410 Speaker 1: a cylinder filled with bullets that rotates every time the 539 00:35:02,450 --> 00:35:06,650 Speaker 1: trigger is pulled, solved every problem that plagued the nineteenth 540 00:35:06,650 --> 00:35:10,930 Speaker 1: century handgun. So you have a prolific of a gun 541 00:35:11,010 --> 00:35:15,570 Speaker 1: that is a significant innovation. It's cheap, it's effective, it 542 00:35:15,650 --> 00:35:17,770 Speaker 1: does all kinds of other Can you describe a little 543 00:35:17,770 --> 00:35:20,770 Speaker 1: bit the kind of social and political response to the 544 00:35:20,810 --> 00:35:22,210 Speaker 1: proliferation of the revolver. 545 00:35:23,010 --> 00:35:28,370 Speaker 12: Well, a major response from American people was to talk 546 00:35:28,410 --> 00:35:32,170 Speaker 12: about how sad it was that people were being shot. 547 00:35:31,930 --> 00:35:32,490 Speaker 10: All the time. 548 00:35:32,930 --> 00:35:38,290 Speaker 12: You see a tremendous outpouring of sadness and frustration that 549 00:35:38,570 --> 00:35:41,370 Speaker 12: people are being lives are being lost, people's lives are 550 00:35:41,370 --> 00:35:46,090 Speaker 12: being ruined, all as a result of someone resorting to 551 00:35:46,210 --> 00:35:50,090 Speaker 12: using these really deadly weapons. So the social response was 552 00:35:50,970 --> 00:35:54,450 Speaker 12: something that we're not altogether unfamiliar with, the primary media 553 00:35:54,490 --> 00:35:58,490 Speaker 12: of the day talking about and lamenting the loss of 554 00:35:58,530 --> 00:36:02,010 Speaker 12: life as a result of these weapons and saying that 555 00:36:02,050 --> 00:36:03,130 Speaker 12: something should be done. 556 00:36:04,530 --> 00:36:09,250 Speaker 1: Walk me through the various strategies that were tried in 557 00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:12,010 Speaker 1: this era in response to the revolver Well. 558 00:36:12,330 --> 00:36:15,970 Speaker 12: The first strategy is what scholars are now calling public 559 00:36:16,010 --> 00:36:21,810 Speaker 12: carry laws, and they started out by prohibiting, in statutory language, 560 00:36:21,810 --> 00:36:25,090 Speaker 12: in clear black and white, you can't carry or conceal 561 00:36:25,210 --> 00:36:28,610 Speaker 12: these certain weapons in public spaces, and there would be 562 00:36:28,610 --> 00:36:29,650 Speaker 12: some sort of a penalty. 563 00:36:30,210 --> 00:36:34,210 Speaker 1: There were laws prohibiting guns from certain sensitive places, taxes 564 00:36:34,250 --> 00:36:38,610 Speaker 1: imposed to make guns more expensive. If we just use 565 00:36:38,770 --> 00:36:42,890 Speaker 1: Texas as our example, So how many of those strategies 566 00:36:42,930 --> 00:36:47,330 Speaker 1: are being deployed in Texas in the latter part of 567 00:36:47,330 --> 00:36:48,210 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. 568 00:36:48,930 --> 00:36:52,970 Speaker 12: I believe all of them, except for personal taxation and 569 00:36:53,330 --> 00:36:56,690 Speaker 12: banning the sale of certain weapons. So in Texas there 570 00:36:56,770 --> 00:37:00,170 Speaker 12: By nineteen hundred, in Texas there was a sensitive Places 571 00:37:00,250 --> 00:37:05,250 Speaker 12: law that was very broad. It covered everything from polling 572 00:37:05,290 --> 00:37:09,970 Speaker 12: places on election days to circuses. Any public gathering was 573 00:37:10,010 --> 00:37:14,930 Speaker 12: a disarmed space. There was also a public carry law 574 00:37:15,050 --> 00:37:18,370 Speaker 12: that applied not only to concealed weapons, but to openly 575 00:37:18,410 --> 00:37:20,970 Speaker 12: carried weapons as well, So you could not carry a 576 00:37:20,970 --> 00:37:25,410 Speaker 12: booie knife or a pistol or various other concealable deadly 577 00:37:25,450 --> 00:37:28,850 Speaker 12: weapons in public beyond the confines of your own property 578 00:37:28,890 --> 00:37:31,010 Speaker 12: at all. 579 00:37:31,250 --> 00:37:33,410 Speaker 1: By the turn of the twentieth century, there were also 580 00:37:33,530 --> 00:37:36,450 Speaker 1: taxes on gun dealers and a law against selling arms 581 00:37:36,450 --> 00:37:42,010 Speaker 1: to minors. So Texas gun laws in eighteen ninety are 582 00:37:42,090 --> 00:37:46,490 Speaker 1: way more restricted than they are in twenty twenty three. Yes, 583 00:37:47,130 --> 00:37:50,610 Speaker 1: and is Texas an outlier in those years There are 584 00:37:50,650 --> 00:37:52,970 Speaker 1: other kind of large states that have similar kind of 585 00:37:53,610 --> 00:37:55,530 Speaker 1: positions on gun violence to that. 586 00:37:55,890 --> 00:37:58,570 Speaker 12: I would not say Texas is an outlier. It was 587 00:37:58,610 --> 00:38:00,130 Speaker 12: a very common approach. 588 00:38:01,290 --> 00:38:03,690 Speaker 1: Huge parts of the country were covered by gun control 589 00:38:03,810 --> 00:38:07,890 Speaker 1: laws in the nineteenth century, laws that would seem unacceptable today. 590 00:38:08,370 --> 00:38:10,530 Speaker 1: That's how much people were spooked by the rise of 591 00:38:10,570 --> 00:38:14,490 Speaker 1: the Revolver. There's even a sub specialty of American history 592 00:38:14,730 --> 00:38:17,530 Speaker 1: devoted to digging up all the old gun laws that 593 00:38:17,610 --> 00:38:21,690 Speaker 1: were on the books around this time. Patrick, can you 594 00:38:21,690 --> 00:38:25,490 Speaker 1: do me a favorite? Can you pull up the list 595 00:38:25,690 --> 00:38:30,050 Speaker 1: of cities that you know had discovered had gun control 596 00:38:30,130 --> 00:38:32,450 Speaker 1: ordinances in the late nineteenth century and just read me, 597 00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:35,810 Speaker 1: read me twenty of the city names. 598 00:38:37,010 --> 00:38:40,850 Speaker 10: I'll go to my appendix because I have these things 599 00:38:40,850 --> 00:38:41,530 Speaker 10: all over the place. 600 00:38:42,690 --> 00:38:46,090 Speaker 1: This is Patrick Charles, one of the leading gun laws sleuths. 601 00:38:47,090 --> 00:38:52,010 Speaker 10: All right, let's go. So I think great examples are 602 00:38:52,170 --> 00:38:53,730 Speaker 10: you know? So if we go to California, right, we 603 00:38:53,890 --> 00:38:58,770 Speaker 10: got Sacramento, We've got San Francisco, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, Amida. 604 00:38:59,010 --> 00:39:04,930 Speaker 10: If you go to Kansas, these are cities that probably 605 00:39:05,090 --> 00:39:11,490 Speaker 10: unless you're from Kansas, you don't even know. Argentine, La Cordion, Coffeeville. 606 00:39:12,250 --> 00:39:14,290 Speaker 10: Then if you go beyond that, I mean we've got 607 00:39:14,370 --> 00:39:18,290 Speaker 10: places such as and Brooklyn was not always part of 608 00:39:18,290 --> 00:39:22,930 Speaker 10: New York City. You got Brooklyn, You've got Nashville, Tennessee. 609 00:39:22,930 --> 00:39:27,250 Speaker 10: It was Missouri, Wheeling, West Virgin Paul, Minnesotal in Wisconsin's 610 00:39:27,330 --> 00:39:29,650 Speaker 10: in Illinois. There's also Chicago, had. 611 00:39:29,490 --> 00:39:37,490 Speaker 1: It so wait, so south there. Guess who else had 612 00:39:37,530 --> 00:39:42,290 Speaker 1: a gun law in place. Dodge City, Kansas. After that 613 00:39:42,370 --> 00:39:46,730 Speaker 1: first murderous season in eighteen seventy two, the town cracked down. 614 00:39:47,330 --> 00:39:50,370 Speaker 1: At the bridge over the Arkansas River, which every cowboy 615 00:39:50,410 --> 00:39:52,730 Speaker 1: crossed on his way into Dodge City, there was a 616 00:39:52,730 --> 00:39:58,770 Speaker 1: big sign the carrying of firearms strictly prohibited. The law 617 00:39:58,850 --> 00:40:00,650 Speaker 1: said that you had to check your gun at the 618 00:40:00,650 --> 00:40:04,370 Speaker 1: sheriff's office or town hall or some other designated building. 619 00:40:04,890 --> 00:40:08,250 Speaker 1: One spot was the local brick factory. The owner said 620 00:40:08,370 --> 00:40:11,570 Speaker 1: that at one point he had hundreds of revolvers stacked 621 00:40:11,650 --> 00:40:14,370 Speaker 1: up in his storeroom. You got a chit like a 622 00:40:14,450 --> 00:40:17,250 Speaker 1: coat check token, which you turned in for your gun 623 00:40:17,370 --> 00:40:20,850 Speaker 1: when you left town. In Darge City, the penalty for 624 00:40:20,930 --> 00:40:24,250 Speaker 1: breaking that law was one hundred dollars or three months 625 00:40:24,290 --> 00:40:27,570 Speaker 1: in jail, or both. When the murder rate ticked back 626 00:40:27,650 --> 00:40:29,970 Speaker 1: up to one or two a year, the local paper 627 00:40:30,010 --> 00:40:32,650 Speaker 1: got all upset and accused the police of going easy 628 00:40:32,650 --> 00:40:35,450 Speaker 1: on gun owners, like the time when the marshal took 629 00:40:35,450 --> 00:40:37,650 Speaker 1: a gun off a drunken troublemaker in a bar and 630 00:40:37,770 --> 00:40:40,890 Speaker 1: foolishly gave the gun to the man's boss, who promptly 631 00:40:40,890 --> 00:40:43,610 Speaker 1: gave it back to his employee, who then killed somebody 632 00:40:44,130 --> 00:40:49,210 Speaker 1: not smart. So gun Smoke comes along in the mid 633 00:40:49,290 --> 00:40:53,210 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, and in its first season with half the 634 00:40:53,210 --> 00:40:58,010 Speaker 1: country's television audience watching, it introduces us to their version 635 00:40:58,210 --> 00:41:02,530 Speaker 1: of Dodge City, the world's most dangerous place, and in 636 00:41:02,610 --> 00:41:05,330 Speaker 1: those first few episodes, it has to deal with the 637 00:41:05,450 --> 00:41:08,650 Speaker 1: question of what Matt Dillon, the symbol of law and 638 00:41:08,690 --> 00:41:13,290 Speaker 1: a third, should do about this extraordinary violence. He can't 639 00:41:13,330 --> 00:41:16,290 Speaker 1: turn a blind eye to it, Kenny, oh, no, he 640 00:41:16,370 --> 00:41:20,170 Speaker 1: has to take action. They decide to have him try 641 00:41:20,410 --> 00:41:25,130 Speaker 1: what his real life counterparts tried, gun control. So Matt 642 00:41:25,170 --> 00:41:31,410 Speaker 1: Dilon takes away Andy's gun, and Andy is transformed. Our 643 00:41:31,450 --> 00:41:34,410 Speaker 1: blonde haired gunman gets a job with the local stables. 644 00:41:34,730 --> 00:41:37,890 Speaker 1: The owner loves him, says, I wish he was my son. 645 00:41:38,530 --> 00:41:41,490 Speaker 1: We see Andy at the local saloon, having a single 646 00:41:41,690 --> 00:41:46,210 Speaker 1: chased beer, chatting politely with the beautiful proprietress. A bully 647 00:41:46,490 --> 00:41:49,810 Speaker 1: challenges him to a fistfight. Andy drops him with a punch. 648 00:41:50,090 --> 00:41:54,370 Speaker 1: Matt Dilon looks on admiringly. Because he has liberated Andy 649 00:41:54,410 --> 00:41:58,970 Speaker 1: from his gun. Dylan has been given moral purpose, Andy 650 00:41:59,010 --> 00:42:03,210 Speaker 1: has been given redemption. Both men see a way forward 651 00:42:03,410 --> 00:42:06,690 Speaker 1: out of the unrelenting bleakness that is Darch City. 652 00:42:08,450 --> 00:42:11,850 Speaker 5: You know something, Rhall, he was right about me not 653 00:42:11,930 --> 00:42:14,650 Speaker 5: wearing a gun. I'm glad I took it off. 654 00:42:15,730 --> 00:42:19,170 Speaker 1: You was right about me not wearing a gun. But 655 00:42:19,290 --> 00:42:23,930 Speaker 1: then commercial break, and when we come back, a stranger 656 00:42:23,970 --> 00:42:28,730 Speaker 1: shows up in Dodge City asking after Andy. Says Andy's 657 00:42:28,770 --> 00:42:31,730 Speaker 1: an outlaw. Says Andy used to be part of the 658 00:42:31,770 --> 00:42:35,210 Speaker 1: Fisher gang down in Lerremie, Wyoming. There's a bounty on 659 00:42:35,250 --> 00:42:38,650 Speaker 1: his head, one thousand dollars bead or alive. The stranger 660 00:42:38,690 --> 00:42:41,810 Speaker 1: finds Andy in the stables, says you're coming with me. 661 00:42:42,290 --> 00:42:45,610 Speaker 1: Andy says no way. Andy goes for his gun, but 662 00:42:46,490 --> 00:42:49,970 Speaker 1: he's got no gun. Matt Dylan took it. He grabs 663 00:42:50,050 --> 00:42:53,010 Speaker 1: it air and the bounty hunter shoots him in the chest. 664 00:42:53,690 --> 00:42:57,410 Speaker 1: Matt Dylan rushes in too late. He goes to the 665 00:42:57,410 --> 00:42:59,410 Speaker 1: stricken Andy lying on the ground. 666 00:43:00,730 --> 00:43:08,290 Speaker 7: I forgot forgot about my gun. I went remembered didn't 667 00:43:08,290 --> 00:43:17,450 Speaker 7: work out just because I've forgotten went from. 668 00:43:23,330 --> 00:43:26,810 Speaker 1: He dies, and the bounty hunter turns to Matt Dylan. 669 00:43:27,650 --> 00:43:28,570 Speaker 8: They went for his gun. 670 00:43:29,970 --> 00:43:31,010 Speaker 5: I had a Killain. 671 00:43:31,930 --> 00:43:36,290 Speaker 1: Dylan is gazing grief stricken into the endless prairie horizon. 672 00:43:37,730 --> 00:43:39,570 Speaker 10: No, you didn't kill him? 673 00:43:39,570 --> 00:43:44,890 Speaker 3: What I killed him? 674 00:43:44,930 --> 00:43:49,770 Speaker 1: And somewhere in the suburbs of Hamilton Township, little Sammy Alito, 675 00:43:50,290 --> 00:43:53,050 Speaker 1: already dreaming of one day wearing the long black robes 676 00:43:53,090 --> 00:43:57,330 Speaker 1: of the High Court, learns a lesson he will never forget. 677 00:43:58,490 --> 00:44:12,450 Speaker 1: Guns don't kill people. Gun Controlled US, our revisionist history 678 00:44:12,450 --> 00:44:16,810 Speaker 1: Gun series was produced by Jacob Smith, Bend, daph Haffrey, 679 00:44:17,290 --> 00:44:21,770 Speaker 1: Piara Powell, Tally Emlin, and Leem Gisto. We were edited 680 00:44:21,770 --> 00:44:25,330 Speaker 1: by Peter Clowney and Julia Barton. Fact checking by Arthur 681 00:44:25,370 --> 00:44:31,250 Speaker 1: Gomberts and Kashell Williams. Original scoring by Luisquira, mastering by 682 00:44:31,290 --> 00:44:36,290 Speaker 1: Flon Williams. Engineering by Nina Lawrence. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.