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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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Speaker 2: and speaker.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,

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Speaker 3: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who

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Speaker 3: love our careers and our families.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about

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Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.

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Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.

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Speaker 4: Term career goals.

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Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.

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Speaker 2: This episode is airing in early February of twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: Sarah is going to be interviewing Kurn Hammonds, who is

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Speaker 2: a best of both worlds listener. We always love having

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Speaker 2: listeners on the show telling us how they manage work

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Speaker 2: and life. Sarah, maybe you could tell us a little

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Speaker 2: bit about Korinn.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Korin is lovely and she is navigating some changes

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Speaker 3: in her life lately that she thought would be really

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Speaker 3: interesting for listeners to hear about, and we definitely agreed

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Speaker 3: and decided to have her on the show. She has

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Speaker 3: worked ten years as the CEO of a New York

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Speaker 3: City charity and so she's lived that nonprofit life, but

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Speaker 3: also tons of leadership responsibilities and running big teams, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: But now her life looks a little bit different as

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Speaker 3: her oldest is in college and her younger one is

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Speaker 3: a senior.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to.

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Speaker 3: Chat today a little bit about like then and now,

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Speaker 3: So some of the challenges that she faced when the

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Speaker 3: kids were little versus some of the challenges she face

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Speaker 3: now and what she's looking forward to in the years

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Speaker 3: to come that are going to bring about some significant

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Speaker 3: changes in her life.

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Speaker 1: Rhythms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean so yeah, young kids versus older kids.

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Speaker 2: I mean, some of us just have all of them

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Speaker 2: at the same time. But sir, what were your favorite

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Speaker 2: parts of the young kid years versus some of the

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Speaker 2: challenges of those Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The favorite parts is man, it's just like there's something

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Speaker 3: hormonal about like how soft and cute they are. It's

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Speaker 3: just so lovely. And also the fact that I don't

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Speaker 3: know as much as my kids love me today, nothing

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Speaker 3: matches the total devotion look you get from a toddler

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Speaker 3: or baby when you wake them up from a nap

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Speaker 3: or they wake up, you hear them moving around, and

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Speaker 3: then you go in there and their eyes are just

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Speaker 3: like movey. It's just like, it's amazing. It's so pure

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Speaker 3: and it's so fun. Don't worry, we'll talk about the

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Speaker 3: hard parts in case anybody's already like this is very

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Speaker 3: difficult and that is very rose colored glasses of you.

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Speaker 3: But we still wanted to give credit to the rose

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Speaker 3: colored part because it was so cute. What did you

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Speaker 3: think was the most fun part?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean babies are cute, although I just

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Speaker 2: in general like kids like to watch kids figure out life,

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Speaker 2: which than the older they are, the more they're figuring

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Speaker 2: things out. And so certainly once they can talk, that

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Speaker 2: is a major cool thing, especially when they're talking sort

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Speaker 2: of funny at the beginning, but oh.

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Speaker 4: My gosh, I enjoy that.

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Speaker 2: But then seeing how they're interpreting the universe in this

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Speaker 2: very new and naive way, it's just amazing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because they have so much like awe all day

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Speaker 3: long about things that we consider it to be so normal.

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Speaker 3: And you're right about the speech thing, and I encourage

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Speaker 3: anyone listening to this with toddlers to record all of

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Speaker 3: the toddler speech that you can, and also when they

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Speaker 3: say funny things, to write them down and keep them

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Speaker 3: for later, because you will love watching and looking back

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Speaker 3: on that stuff later.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just hilarious.

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Speaker 3: But it's not all funny games.

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Speaker 4: They're challenging too. The constant vigilance.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the part that you and I both

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Speaker 2: do not miss about the little kid years.

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Speaker 3: No, not at all, Like you literally do not get

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Speaker 3: a break that feeling like if I do not supervise

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Speaker 3: you every single second, you could die like that. It's

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Speaker 3: a reality. And I mean that's maybe dramatizing things, but

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Speaker 3: they could get hurt so easily. They can get into

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Speaker 3: things so easily, and it just makes everything else very

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Speaker 3: very challenging. So unless you have childcare, there's no adult conversations,

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Speaker 3: there's no running down in your journal, there's no exercise

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Speaker 3: unless they're in a stroller, and even then they might

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Speaker 3: start crying halfway through your run and it has to end.

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Speaker 3: And so yeah, I mean those years were really really hard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Now your favorite part of the bigger kid years, I

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Speaker 2: mean seeing who they become is real people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean I feel like my kids are actually truly

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Speaker 3: good company that I enjoy hanging out with now, and

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Speaker 3: that is amazing and something that like, of course it's

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Speaker 3: not coming, but not really until it was actually happening,

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Speaker 3: I didn't know how much fun it. You could almost

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Speaker 3: just feel like hanging out with a friend. I mean

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Speaker 3: when I'm sitting around watching Dance Moms with nbel or

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Speaker 3: something like that, and that's been so fun. And they're

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Speaker 3: smart and they have interesting opinions. And then also it's

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Speaker 3: just fun to watch them do things that you can't do,

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Speaker 3: whether it's you know, sports or a topic that they've

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Speaker 3: learned about that you don't know, and you're like, huh,

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Speaker 3: you are your own person and in some ways you

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Speaker 3: are better.

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Speaker 4: What about you? No, it's really cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I love having conversations with them, getting to

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Speaker 2: hang out with them as real people. Yes, again, seeing

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Speaker 2: them develop their own interests which are different than yours,

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Speaker 2: and that's kind of exciting too.

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Speaker 4: They don't have to be the same people as you.

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Speaker 2: It's more exciting to have other people around instead of

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Speaker 2: just little carbon copies of yourself. There's challenges too, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think we've both been spared some of the worst

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Speaker 2: ones that anyone could have. But so far, I guess, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's so far.

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Speaker 3: My parenting career is young, and actually so as yours

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Speaker 3: and somewhat well, yours is old and young.

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Speaker 4: That's true.

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Speaker 3: You've done a lot of it and you still have

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Speaker 3: a lot to go. But it is true there are

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Speaker 3: like I mean, I sort of hate the big kids,

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Speaker 3: bigger problems because I do think it minimizes the like

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Speaker 3: every moment on part which I think people just forget about,

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Speaker 3: but like watching a kids struggle socially or feeling like

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Speaker 3: some decision they're making is going to have really long

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Speaker 3: term consequences and you don't know how to manage it.

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Speaker 3: That that can be hard about bigger kids.

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Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, do you guys talk about the empty

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Speaker 2: nest phase at all?

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Speaker 3: We do because we love to like fantasize. Well, not

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Speaker 3: like the day in and day out, but it's more like, ooh,

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Speaker 3: that's when we'll do that river cruise.

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Speaker 2: Always about to do a river cruise now, I mean

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Speaker 2: you could, you could make it work.

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Speaker 4: We could, but we probably won't.

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Speaker 3: I feel like we'll do it during the empty nestry.

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Speaker 3: What about you guys?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And I know if I'm going on a river cruise

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Speaker 2: maybe someday, but my husband's gonna be like seventy when.

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Speaker 5: You're already ready for the river cruise, that's like the

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Speaker 5: perfect it would be a totally different I don't know

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Speaker 5: when you have your last kid pretty old, like the

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Speaker 5: empty nest is going to more coincide with things like retirement,

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Speaker 5: I think, which is gonna it's conflating changes at the

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Speaker 5: same time.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I always find it interesting when I hear about

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Speaker 3: people who have maybe one or two kids and they

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Speaker 3: had them in their twenties, and it's true, their empty

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Speaker 3: nest is long before retirement. And for me those two

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Speaker 3: I think, well, I don't know what's going to happen

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Speaker 3: with retirement, but they're a little bit more intertwined.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right, Well, let's hear what Karin

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Speaker 4: has to say.

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Speaker 3: Well, I am so excited to welcome to the podcast today. KARENN.

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Speaker 3: Hammond's who is a mother of two ages seventeen and nine,

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Speaker 3: team now and who has been working as the CEO

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Speaker 3: of a New York City charity for many, many years.

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Speaker 3: And we in this episode are going to talk a

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Speaker 3: little bit about then and now, what is different, and

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Speaker 3: how Karin is working on her next step. So welcome Kurin, Hi, Sarah,

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Speaker 3: I'm so thrilled to be here. Thank you, so much

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Speaker 3: for coming on. All right, So we're going to take

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Speaker 3: a trip through memory lane before we go to the present.

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Speaker 3: You have always had, or at least I think, while

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Speaker 3: your kids were growing up, a pretty big job. Can

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Speaker 3: you talk about how your career kind of grew when

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Speaker 3: your kids were little, maybe kind of where things fell

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Speaker 3: in terms of pregnancy, and then I would love to

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Speaker 3: know a little bit about what life was like back then,

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Speaker 3: like what were your logistic setups?

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Speaker 1: Oh, I love that.

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Speaker 6: I love that, and I had to think back to

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Speaker 6: remember it. So that's a healthy thing. Nothing less forever, right.

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Speaker 6: So I've worked in nonprofits most of my career, and

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Speaker 6: in my twenties, before I was married and had kids,

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Speaker 6: worked for years at a great nonprofit in New York

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Speaker 6: City doing a variety of mid level work, and then

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Speaker 6: had the opportunity to move out here to Long Island

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Speaker 6: in New York, where my husband works, and took on

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Speaker 6: a job that was more of a leadership role at

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Speaker 6: a local nonprofit. So I wasn't the CEO, but I

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Speaker 6: was an emerging leader over time. And right after I

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Speaker 6: took that job, we got pregnant for the first time.

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Speaker 6: I had a miscarriage, and then we had our two daughters.

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Speaker 3: Wow, okay, so you were kind of rising in the

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Speaker 3: ranks as you were growing your family. And oh, I'm

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Speaker 3: sorry that it didn't start on the easiest note, but

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Speaker 3: I know we have lots of listeners who can relate

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Speaker 3: very common I'm so happy that you were able to

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Speaker 3: grow your family after that. So did you have any

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Speaker 3: thoughts when you were, you know, growing your career and

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Speaker 3: you had these babies fairly close together about two years apart,

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Speaker 3: am I right?

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Speaker 1: That's right?

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Speaker 3: Yes, did you have any thoughts about what that would

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Speaker 3: mean for your career or even I don't know, did

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Speaker 3: you because I get we get emails all the time

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Speaker 3: doubts about your decision to go back to work.

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Speaker 6: I never stopped working. I had been working all the

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Speaker 6: way through, and I just thought it was the only

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Speaker 6: way we'd make our life work. My husband and I

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Speaker 6: both work. We needed that to pay our mortgage and to.

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Speaker 1: Have a life.

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Speaker 6: And it was just a day at a time. I

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Speaker 6: would say, not only was not every day was easy.

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Speaker 6: Many days were hard. But there was really no other

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Speaker 6: particular choice or path that I saw. I'm sure there

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Speaker 6: were other paths, but I didn't see that.

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Speaker 3: Nothing else made sense to you in that moment. Okay, great,

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Speaker 3: well how did you set yourself up for success? What

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Speaker 3: kind of childcare? Did you take us through? A walk

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Speaker 3: down memory lane in terms of the logistics?

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Speaker 1: Thanks Sarah, and this was fun to think about.

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Speaker 6: So we have a wonderful daycare that is between my

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Speaker 6: office at the time where I was working and our home.

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Speaker 6: And they had the longest day care day. So I

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Speaker 6: was able to drop the girls off at eight am

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Speaker 6: and pick them up at six pm. And they started

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Speaker 6: eleven weeks. So I ended nursing quicker than I'd wanted to.

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Speaker 6: I decided pumping wouldn't work at work, and that's a

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Speaker 6: whole other conversation. And so they had that long daycare day,

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Speaker 6: but it allowed me to work in the office eight

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Speaker 6: thirty to five thirty most days. I skipped lunch, but

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Speaker 6: it was a pretty reasonably long day. That said, I

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Speaker 6: still worried, you know, was I in the office enough,

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Speaker 6: did I seem committed enough? But by the time I

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Speaker 6: got to those two little girls at six pm, I

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Speaker 6: was tired, they were tired, and it was time to

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Speaker 6: go home. So that was our childcare arrangement until they

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Speaker 6: were in elementary school.

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Speaker 3: It was a self limiting day. I guess I think

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Speaker 3: our listeners would be interested in your pumping decision. Was

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Speaker 3: it just like there was just no logistical way in

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Speaker 3: the office where you were at at the time to

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Speaker 3: make it work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: So my mom is a very natural person. She had

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Speaker 6: natural childbirth and she breastfed as long as she could,

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Speaker 6: and I just figured I would be the same way. Now.

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Speaker 6: Of course, I had abodirls when I had my kids,

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Speaker 6: and I enjoyed breastfeeding. I wouldn't say I was perfect

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Speaker 6: at it, but I really enjoyed the closeness. But our

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Speaker 6: this is granular. I don't know if the listeners care.

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Speaker 6: But our restroom was sort of a common single restroom

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Speaker 6: at the office that like thirty people shared, and it

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Speaker 6: just didn't feel comfortable pumping. I had an office where

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Speaker 6: I could close the door, but you know, that pump

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Speaker 6: sounds like the end of the world is coming, And

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Speaker 6: I think maybe I could have asked for accommodations, but

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Speaker 6: I didn't think to do that, and so I just

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Speaker 6: weaned the mouth before eleven weeks when they went to

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Speaker 6: day Careen my kids are doing great having been bottle fed,

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Speaker 6: so I don't come down on either side of that divide,

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Speaker 6: except to say it was a little more of a

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Speaker 6: hurried decision than probably based on my own upbringing.

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Speaker 3: I think that's so fascinating, especially the way that you

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Speaker 3: talk about it in a fairly not super emotional way

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Speaker 3: of someone that like tortured myself to do it, and like,

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Speaker 3: honestly hearing that, I'm like, oh, I gotta just sleet

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Speaker 3: myself off the hook. And maybe there are some listeners

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Speaker 3: right now who actually need to hear that you didn't

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Speaker 3: do that. Yeah, and then it turned out fine. And

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Speaker 3: then on the other side of that, I'm so mad

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Speaker 3: for you that there was no good option of anywhere

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Speaker 3: that you could go when you were doing a full

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Speaker 3: day in the office and contributing, and it would have

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Speaker 3: been nice for that to have been.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I probably could have either asked for or created

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Speaker 6: electation room. I just either I wasn't in that headspace

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Speaker 6: twenty years ago, or the world wasn't.

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Speaker 1: I don't know totally.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I found that super interesting. I know they

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Speaker 3: will too. Okay, so you had this daycare and then

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Speaker 3: school age years were kind of been next up. Actually,

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Speaker 3: I have one more daycare question. How did you handle

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Speaker 3: all the illnesses you and your husband. I mean, maybe

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Speaker 3: your kids are like the miracle magical children who do

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Speaker 3: not get sick at daycare, but I kind of doubt it.

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Speaker 1: No, they were not. They were sick all the time.

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Speaker 6: We tried to be really good partners with the daycare

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Speaker 6: in that so we really played by the rules in

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Speaker 6: terms of not sending them when they were sick and

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Speaker 6: also picking them up extremely promptly when they were sick,

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Speaker 6: and we switched off between our two jobs calling in sick.

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Speaker 6: For those reasons, I will say the only blessing was

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Speaker 6: because my kids were close at age and they were

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Speaker 6: both at the daycare. They usually got sick at the

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Speaker 6: same time with the same thing, right, So it wasn't

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Speaker 6: the double the illness. But I would say we were

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Speaker 6: drawing straws. Neither of us were at a point in

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Speaker 6: our career where we felt like calling in sick a lot,

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Speaker 6: or even it always a great thing to do. Again,

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Speaker 6: that was probably self imposed pressure. It was also pretty

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Speaker 6: far before remote work for either of our fields, and

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Speaker 6: so it wasn't that we kept a little one home

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Speaker 6: who was napping with the fever and then we were

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Speaker 6: no So those were some of our least favorite days,

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Speaker 6: both seeing the kids suffering from being sick, and then

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Speaker 6: also feel like we were letting down our I shouldn't

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Speaker 6: speak for my husband, but I think it was similar,

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Speaker 6: you know, letting down our employers.

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Speaker 3: But it's beautiful that it sounds like you at least

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Speaker 3: had a tag team, like it was not always assumed

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Speaker 3: to be your responsibility or his.

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Speaker 1: And I guess that's right.

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Speaker 3: My guess is depending on the careers. You know, some

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Speaker 3: careers it's much more higher stakes for one versus the other.

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Speaker 3: But for you guys, it sounds like it was pretty similar.

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Speaker 1: It was equally high stakes, right we made it work.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's good.

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Speaker 3: Equally high stakes, I think is much better than super

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Speaker 3: super lopsided. Actually, so I have alaut that. All right,

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Speaker 3: So now kids are going back to school, and I'm curious,

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Speaker 3: what were your arrangements then and what did they think

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Speaker 3: about you being a two working parent couple. Was that

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Speaker 3: how most of their classmates were? Was that something different?

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Speaker 1: Yep?

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Speaker 6: So again fun to think back on this. So when

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Speaker 6: they went to elementary school, they could take the bus

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Speaker 6: in the morning, which allowed me to go into work

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Speaker 6: a little earlier in the morning. Just for saving a stop.

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Speaker 6: It didn't really change our morning routine. And then in

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Speaker 6: the afternoon they could go to aftercare at school, so

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Speaker 6: I still did that six pm pick up at the

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Speaker 6: end of the day when we were all tired, but

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Speaker 6: they had that cool, structured time at the end of

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Speaker 6: the day. And then as they got a little bit older,

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Speaker 6: we hired someone to come to our home who did

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Speaker 6: watch them, did homework with them, did some lighthousekeeping, was

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Speaker 6: a wonderful role model, taught them to bake and they

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Speaker 6: had a great time. So those were sort of those

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Speaker 6: elementary to middle school years. I have to say I

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Speaker 6: often say to friends, my daughters have been great about

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Speaker 6: me working and us working. I think it's taught them

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Speaker 6: a lot of flexibility. They don't know anything different. I

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Speaker 6: think I am a little bit of role model in

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Speaker 6: how they think of themselves as women and the possibilities.

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Speaker 1: For a lot of years, really till.

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Speaker 6: The teenage years, they were excited to come to work

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Speaker 6: with me once in a while when they could, or

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Speaker 6: come to a work event. I will say there were

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Speaker 6: moms at their school. They went to a small independent school.

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Speaker 1: Moms at their.

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Speaker 6: School who were able to go to pa meetings in

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Speaker 6: the middle of the day and to my envy, maybe

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Speaker 6: play tennis in the middle of the day. Just different lives,

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Speaker 6: not better, not worse, just different lives. And I felt

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Speaker 6: that sometimes they sort of looked at those mothers and

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Speaker 6: wondered about me. But on the other hand, to be

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Speaker 6: really fair about it, I think I was more envious

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Speaker 6: than they were, so they noticed the differences, but I

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Speaker 6: don't think they were deeply troubled by them. I will say,

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Speaker 6: now they love going over to other people's houses and

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Speaker 6: like learning about the mom and what her job is

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Speaker 6: and how she spends her time.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's cool. That is so cool.

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Speaker 3: We're going to take a quick break and we're going

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Speaker 3: to go back, and then kids are going to get

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Speaker 3: a little bit older. I'm loving this style, this memory lane.

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Speaker 3: All right, we're back, And I actually what you were

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Speaker 3: saying about the school and maybe whether they had different

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Speaker 3: impressions of the mom staying home. I mean, I will

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Speaker 3: say I have felt that myself sometimes I think it

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Speaker 3: really depends on the school, yep. But man, I have

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Speaker 3: advocated for like, let's make sure that if we're going

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Speaker 3: to have meetings during the day, that there's at least

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Speaker 3: a zoom recording to watch later for those of us

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Speaker 3: that don't have that flexibility because we're working to pay

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Speaker 3: the tuition for this very expent Okay, sorry, my.

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Speaker 1: Chance to know.

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Speaker 6: There are things I could have done to taking a

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Speaker 6: lunch break and run over, But there were a couple

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Speaker 6: of important meetings where I said, could we have an

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Speaker 6: evening option something like that, and then sometimes with those

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Speaker 6: I couldn't even make it, So I also didn't want

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Speaker 6: to be accommodated for But yeah, I think it's well,

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Speaker 6: that's my own bias. But maybe some school settings are

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Speaker 6: set up for one parent with employment and one who

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Speaker 6: works in the home, and I think that was in

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Speaker 6: our life, so we all worked with it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it is up to us to

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Speaker 3: speak up sometimes, just make sure that we're not left

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Speaker 3: out with that assumption, which is erroneous. I think in

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Speaker 3: most contexts act right. Even if there are some women

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Speaker 3: or some men who are not working, it's probably not

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Speaker 3: the majority of most schools.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I didn't run

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Speaker 1: into that with the dad's good point.

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Speaker 3: Right, all right, So now we're going into high school

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Speaker 3: and those years were I mean, you talked about something

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Speaker 3: like how you felt like there was like a slow

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Speaker 3: detachment almost like that because they become busy. Can you

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Speaker 3: talk a little bit about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this has been fun.

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Speaker 6: So COVID and high school, end of middle school, high

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Speaker 6: school groundsided for them, and so that was sort of

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Speaker 6: the end of our need for childcare. I worked remote

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Speaker 6: a little more so I was a little more present

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Speaker 6: in the house, which was fun for me, but just

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Speaker 6: at a time when they were peeling away and starting

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Speaker 6: to do their own thing. But I really loved that

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Speaker 6: aspect as well. And then you know, it just felt

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Speaker 6: like I think for many of us, it started to accelerate.

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Speaker 6: My older daughter applied to college and left for college.

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Speaker 6: She's sophomore now, and my younger daughter is a senior

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Speaker 6: and she has a driver's license. And while I'm you know,

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Speaker 6: and we'll talk about it thinking through like what will

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Speaker 6: the empty ness be like next year, already she's gone

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Speaker 6: in a lot of ways because she goes to school

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Speaker 6: and work and goes to see your friends and does

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Speaker 6: that all very independently. So life has accelerated in the changes.

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Speaker 3: That is kind of nice that you it doesn't feel

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Speaker 3: like ripping off a band aid suddenly, I think that

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Speaker 3: would be worse in some ways versus like, Okay, we're

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Speaker 3: just on this path and they'll be natural.

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Speaker 1: Hoping about it a little now, but I'll take your

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Speaker 1: advice on that well.

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Speaker 3: And how would you say, as they've had increasing independence

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Speaker 3: and maybe you've had some more flexibility, how has that

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Speaker 3: impacted your career? Like have you been more excited to

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Speaker 3: lean in on certain aspects? Has it been more like no,

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Speaker 3: I'm more motivated to pursue personal stuff, Like has that

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Speaker 3: felt any different?

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Speaker 1: I love that? So for better for worse.

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Speaker 6: I've always been like big into career, big into parenting.

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Speaker 6: I wouldn't say I'm an overbearing parent. I'm definitely not

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Speaker 6: a helicopter parent, but like it's been really important to

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Speaker 6: me to do parenting right and by that for me,

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Speaker 6: my own personal definition and is to like let my

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Speaker 6: kids be who they're meant to be, and so just

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Speaker 6: being supportive of that. So if I'm around in a

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Speaker 6: late afternoon and someone comes home from an activity and

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Speaker 6: wants to decompress over a snack, that's a really nice feeling.

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Speaker 6: But I do see them less than I used to,

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Speaker 6: So I don't think a lot has changed yet in

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Speaker 6: terms of career and home except that, and I know

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Speaker 6: we'll talk about this. I'm starting to think about what

442
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,119
Speaker 6: is my life rhythm going to look like with the

443
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 6: empty nest.

444
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,600
Speaker 3: Yes, so I think it's time to go into the

445
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 3: present and think about maybe the future a little bit,

446
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,520
Speaker 3: because take us to where things are right.

447
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,000
Speaker 1: Now, right right.

448
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,520
Speaker 6: So, my older daughter's at college, my younger daughter is

449
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,080
Speaker 6: a senior applying to colleges, and that means that you'll

450
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,000
Speaker 6: graduate in June and be off to college probably late summer.

451
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,720
Speaker 6: And so here my husband and I will be back

452
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,439
Speaker 6: to the first five years when we were married and

453
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 6: it was just us, but so much more water under

454
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,119
Speaker 6: the bridge since then, and I think some things will

455
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,040
Speaker 6: happen naturally. Hopefully he and I will spend less time

456
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 6: talking about kid logistics. My family knows that's one of

457
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,440
Speaker 6: my least favorite things to talk about and something we've

458
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,719
Speaker 6: spent a great deal of time talking about who's going

459
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 6: to do what when, and so maybe we'll open up

460
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 6: some space for that. And then, of course there's a tendency.

461
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,679
Speaker 6: I love to work, so I could work more, but

462
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 6: I really want to think. Like Laura's been talking about

463
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 6: the Golden Hours, how do I not just let the

464
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 6: evening slip away?

465
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:29,880
Speaker 1: How can I structure it a little bit?

466
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 6: And so one thing I've been thinking about is hobbies,

467
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,639
Speaker 6: which is something that has never been my thing and

468
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,640
Speaker 6: increasingly is becoming my thing.

469
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 3: I can't tell if hobbies are trending or if I

470
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 3: am just reaching the stage in my life where a

471
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,439
Speaker 3: lot of the creators I'm listening to have time for

472
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,360
Speaker 3: hobbies and so there's talking about them. Yeah, they are definitely.

473
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:47,720
Speaker 6: I don't know.

474
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,240
Speaker 3: If you listen to Sarah Powers and Megan Francis, who

475
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,280
Speaker 3: used to be the Mom Hour, have a power called

476
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 3: Midlife Lady Leisure Pursuits.

477
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 6: Oh I did listen to an episode of that. Absolutely, yeah,

478
00:20:59,240 --> 00:20:59,679
Speaker 6: and it's.

479
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,880
Speaker 3: All about but that's super interesting. What well, Actually, let's

480
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,639
Speaker 3: also go back to your husband a little bit. So

481
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 3: you had five years without kids and more than eighteen

482
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 3: years with kids, right, I mean, we don't actually think

483
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 3: about how this breaks down very often, but it is

484
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 3: actually fascinating. So if you're listening to this right now,

485
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,399
Speaker 3: I want you to think how many years did I

486
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 3: have without kids, and then how many did I have

487
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 3: with and then how many will I have potentially after that.

488
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,360
Speaker 3: And it's actually very interesting because you think of parenthood

489
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,359
Speaker 3: as this thing that's most of your life, and then

490
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 3: yet numbers wise those years that our kids are I

491
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 3: mean to be fair, Laura, our kids are so spread

492
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 3: out that for her forever now it might work out

493
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,439
Speaker 3: to almost most of her life. But like for me,

494
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 3: I don't know. Eighteen plus six years is how long

495
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 3: I'll have kids at home, So that's twenty four years.

496
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,400
Speaker 3: Hopefully I'm living longer than forty eight because that's pretty soon.

497
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 3: So I mean, it is very interesting to think about.

498
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,479
Speaker 3: You know that you have all this time with your

499
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 3: partner and actually more limited time with kids. Have you

500
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 3: thought about what that will be like with the two

501
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 3: of you and the ideas of things you might want

502
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 3: to do together.

503
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 1: It's so interesting.

504
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 6: I've thought about it a little. He and I have

505
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 6: talked about it a little, and my friends have brought

506
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 6: it up a lot.

507
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 1: I think it's a.

508
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 6: Very hot topic in a lot of ways. So this

509
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 6: is probably baked into a lot of long marriages. But

510
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 6: my husband and I have a really solid friendship, so

511
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 6: we enjoy doing things together. We've been playing a little

512
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,120
Speaker 6: pickleball together. We like just to sit down and watch

513
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 6: a movie together, certainly chat about the day. So we

514
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 6: really enjoy our time together a lot. And so I

515
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 6: could see just more planned evenings, whether it's a dinner

516
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 6: out or movies or just hanging out together. I think

517
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 6: that'll be really nice. This is not my field of expertise,

518
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 6: but a lot of people are like, is the honeymoon

519
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 6: going to be back?

520
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,679
Speaker 1: And I don't know. I mean, who can even think

521
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 1: about the honeymoon? Right? I think it's just more the

522
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: next stage.

523
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 3: I mean, it's kind of nice to me se time together.

524
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 3: That's too funny. Well, one thing you mentioned specifically in

525
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 3: terms of rituals that might look different with just your

526
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 3: husband is family dinner. Yes, gimme, what was family dinner

527
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 3: when they were younger? Did you have family dinner? Because

528
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 3: we don't always. I mean, my kids are very busy

529
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 3: and my husband's schedules crazy, so honestly, it's like Sunday

530
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 3: family dinner for the most part.

531
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

532
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, But what was it like then?

533
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,479
Speaker 3: And how do you do you feel like you're going

534
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 3: to evolve some version of that with your partner?

535
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 6: So thanks for that question. I can't believe I didn't

536
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 6: include this in the then part of the conversation because

537
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 6: meals are like everything, right, so it's so interesting, and

538
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 6: I think our childhoods impact our adult lives so much.

539
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 6: But it was really important to my husband have family

540
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 6: dinner every night. Like me, if it was up to me,

541
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 6: I would have had couch dinner and just whatever was

542
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 6: easiest after daycare pickup, and he always got home slightly

543
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 6: before us started dinner, cooked a healthy dinner, and the

544
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 6: four of us eight together, and so I would say

545
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 6: six nights out of seven for most of the kids'

546
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 6: lives we've had family dinner and that's been great for

547
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 6: like the.

548
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: Kid's palettes, but also them.

549
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 6: I think having a comfortable place to talk and current

550
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 6: events and vocab and all those unintended things that happened.

551
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 6: So total credit to my husband. And then during COVID,

552
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 6: we started, rather than grocery shopping, ordering a meal server.

553
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 6: If I can mention Hello Fresh, that's been our meal service.

554
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 3: Yes you can, because we have partnered with them and

555
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 3: some of their other brands, so it's great.

556
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: So I don't know the whole field, but that's worked

557
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: for us.

558
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 6: And we did round robin cooking, so each of the

559
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 6: four of us would cook and the kids really became

560
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 6: great cooks.

561
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: And same thing the family dinner table.

562
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 6: So the question is when it's just the two of

563
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 6: us around the table, we'll be doing that every night.

564
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: I don't know.

565
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 6: When the kids have gone to Sleepway camp and stuff.

566
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 6: I'm like, Okay, here are the restaurant reservations. You know

567
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 6: we're going to pick up food. We're going to skip

568
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 6: dinner that night. You know, more of my tendencies. But

569
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 6: I hope we'll keep the spirit of that, even if

570
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 6: it was for the girls, because that's been a nice

571
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 6: thing that's been.

572
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: Important to him.

573
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I bet it's going to remain important. I mean,

574
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 3: whether it's I don't think he's going to care. I

575
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 3: don't know I'm projecting. I don't think he's going to

576
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 3: care where the food comes from. But if he really

577
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 3: craves that, like winding down, settling with his people that

578
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 3: he loves, my guesses that's still going to include you.

579
00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 3: So I don't know, it sounds.

580
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 6: It was you're very well, Well, we'll have to check

581
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 6: back in two years and see if we're still having dinner.

582
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 3: Yes, well, we're going to take another break and then

583
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 3: we're going to talk more about the future and maybe

584
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 3: also what you might have told your younger self. If anything,

585
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 3: We'll see. All right, we are back, and you talked

586
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 3: about how you know this year is going to be

587
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 3: a lot of changes happening in twenty twenty six, So

588
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 3: do you have any kind of goals for the year

589
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 3: in terms of how you want to navigate this transition

590
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 3: and how you're going to be purposeful about it.

591
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: So I love that question.

592
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 6: It's sort of a more complicated question than it seems

593
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 6: on the surface. So I think I had mentioned that

594
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 6: my twenty twenty five was a bit of a challenge.

595
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 6: I turned fifty, so it was the time of transition.

596
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 6: I lost my wonderful dad who was my person, and

597
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 6: I had goals for twenty twenty five, like I always do.

598
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 6: I set goals every year, and I just abandoned them.

599
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 6: I couldn't even tell you what my twenty twenty five

600
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 6: theme was totally different for me that I just lost them.

601
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 6: So for twenty twenty six, a fresh start. I have

602
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 6: a theme of healthy choices, and a lot of those

603
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 6: twenty six for twenty six goals are around thinking through

604
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 6: what life is going to be like, working family in

605
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 6: the empty nest, and I think some of that is hobbies,

606
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 6: some of that is figuring out with my husband the

607
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 6: new logistics as we've talked about, and also making sure

608
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 6: my younger daughter has a great launch to college.

609
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: I don't want to hop over that.

610
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 6: I want her to have a great graduation and prom

611
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 6: and turning eighteen and all those things before she does.

612
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, so many. Well, first of all, I want to

613
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 3: say I'm sorry for the loss of your father, and

614
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you just abandoned all goals when it

615
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 3: didn't feel right, because we should never feel bad about that.

616
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 3: Goals are for ourselves. And so if it's like this

617
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 3: is not the year for this, then starting fresh sounds

618
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 3: like it made so much sense. And that is a

619
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 3: great reminder not to throw out the present, even though

620
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 3: the future is excited and the transitions loom large. But

621
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 3: you're right, there's going to be like so many amazing

622
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 3: opportunities for memory and connection with your daughter that hasn't

623
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 3: left yet.

624
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: Fact.

625
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 3: But then also I liked what you said about the

626
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 3: purposefulness of designing this future rather than just sort of like, eh,

627
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: we'll see what we fall into, because I think anytime

628
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 3: we end up in defaults, we just end up with

629
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 3: a lot of repetitive stuff. We're not trying new things.

630
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 3: And that doesn't make sense because so many of the

631
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 3: so many of the current rituals and things are probably

632
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 3: built on circumstances that are just not going to exist anymore.

633
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 3: So being thoughtful and experimenting and starting from scratch, like

634
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 3: it makes a lot of sense.

635
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, really well said. And also to push myself to

636
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 6: do the things that I haven't maybe done for myself.

637
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 6: And that's a little bit of a trope with work

638
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 6: in parenting, and I know there are people who work

639
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 6: in parent and do things for themselves all the time.

640
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 6: That hasn't been my gift. But I love to write.

641
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 6: I just launched a sub stack. I am doing a

642
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 6: hobby related to writing, and that's something that while it's public,

643
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 6: it is still for me and is very good for

644
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 6: my soul, and I think that's important as well.

645
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 3: Are you able to share any of your other potential

646
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 3: pursuits for twenty twenty six, Like are there friend trips

647
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 3: or I don't know, like interesting exotic hobbies that would

648
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 3: surprise listeners.

649
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: Nothing exotic.

650
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 6: I mean I have made a transition, like many of us,

651
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 6: maybe post COVID from an inactive person I have a

652
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 6: sedentary job to a more active person. So I do

653
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 6: yoga and peloton, and I love pickleball, as I mentioned

654
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 6: reading and writing the substack, So just different areas of

655
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 6: possibilities that I want to take a look at for ideas.

656
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 3: Reading, peloton, pickleball, substack. I mean like you're pretty well

657
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 3: rounded there, Honestly, that's.

658
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: A podcastic listening to all the podcasts.

659
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and fun dinners with your husband, that's right. So

660
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 3: let's say you were able to have a time machine

661
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 3: and you have little twenty year ago you maybe not

662
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 3: twenty year let's say eighteen, so you had you were pregnant, you.

663
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: A one year old.

664
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 3: I guess, wow, Well, would you tell yourself like anything

665
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 3: you wished you had known? Or maybe is there anything

666
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: constantly telling your younger colleagues, because for me, I can

667
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 3: frame it much easier that way.

668
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: Oh I like that.

669
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, But looking back, first of all, I just got

670
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 6: a mental image of me pregnant with a one year old,

671
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 6: which was me on the couch, lying down after work,

672
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 6: trying to like run after a toddler. I don't know,

673
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 6: but I think all the sayings like Gretchen Rubin says,

674
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 6: the days are long, but the years are short. I really,

675
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 6: in those moments, was going day by day, week by week,

676
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 6: with the kids, with work, with childcare, even with dinners

677
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 6: and food prep. The thought that I'd be at this

678
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 6: end at some point. I mean, I've seen everybody else

679
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 6: do it. I'm in a big, extended family. I know

680
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 6: how time works, so I think I would have said,

681
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 6: try to have fun and joy in the moments. Have

682
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 6: had a lot of joyful moments, but I'm someone who

683
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 6: tends to be serious. I tend to rush to the

684
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 6: next thing. I never wished the time away. I adore

685
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 6: my kids, but maybe to have been a little more

686
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 6: present in those joyful moments that would have.

687
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: Been a good thing.

688
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 6: And I think I'm probably not the only one who

689
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 6: goes through that.

690
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 3: This might be as emotional as I've gotten in a

691
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 3: podcast in a long time.

692
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: Oh no, No, they're beautiful.

693
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 3: That's so beautiful, and like I think probably true for

694
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 3: many of us. You feel like you know you're in

695
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 3: survival mode for so long, and then it's like you

696
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 3: look back and you're like, wait, now it's going faster

697
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 3: and faster. And to make sure that we are there

698
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 3: and we're experiencing it and getting the joy out of it.

699
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 3: That's there. Not every moment's joy like we know that.

700
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: No, no, no no. But I have wonderful kids. Of

701
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: course I'm biased.

702
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 6: I've had a joyful parenting experience, and I have a

703
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 6: great career that I love, and so when the big

704
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 6: things are in place, I feel like the small things

705
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:45,959
Speaker 6: can follow.

706
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 3: Love it.

707
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: Well.

708
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: You know, we always end our show with the love

709
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 3: of the week. Do you have any loves of the

710
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 3: week that you have for us?

711
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 6: So, Sarah, speaking of the dinner table conversation, I actually

712
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 6: took this one to the dinner table because I was

713
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 6: choosing between two. But I'm going to surprise you and

714
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 6: everyone by saying my love.

715
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: Of the week is football.

716
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 6: So my face watching NFL football. So as we are meeting,

717
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 6: we're at the end of the regular football season. And

718
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 6: I have never been a football fan.

719
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: You know.

720
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 6: I remember as a little kid in Maryland.

721
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: When the Colts drove off in a truck in.

722
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 6: The middle of the night. I've never liked football. I

723
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 6: thought it was violin. I didn't understand it. And for

724
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 6: the past couple of years I've participated in my nephew's

725
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 6: fantasy league, and the first couple of years, I just

726
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 6: didn't try very hard, and I thought, well, that's not

727
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 6: fair to him. So this year I researched the players

728
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 6: and watched some games, and I totally got into it.

729
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 6: I think it's like a beautiful game of strategic chess.

730
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 6: And I have become a football fanatic all of a sudden.

731
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 6: This also means I don't have a team, so I'm

732
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 6: watching every game with all the teams, so I got

733
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 6: to really choose a team quickly or else there's going

734
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 6: to be way too much football on in our house.

735
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 6: But I'm loving football, and i'd broaden that to strategic

736
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 6: games and sports.

737
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 3: Well, I'm so impressed. I have to say, I do

738
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 3: agree football is very complicated. And I was commenting to

739
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 3: my husband. I'm like, these guys they have a reputation

740
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 3: for like not being smart, but they have to be smart,

741
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 3: and he's like, oh, yeah, they're very smart, because this

742
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 3: is like, this is strategy, this is high level, this

743
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 3: is like but my brain is not smart when it

744
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 3: comes to like following that kind of motion, and I'm

745
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 3: not sure I'm capable. But I'm very, very impressed, and

746
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 3: I think that's going to be your other hobby like football.

747
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: You can go to games.

748
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: Somebody said I should go to the game. I'm like,

749
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: why would I want to?

750
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 3: You can pick you can pick a team, you can

751
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 3: like know all the stats, Like, that's so cool.

752
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 6: I comment, I'm a member of our patreon for this podcast,

753
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 6: and I commented there that I'd asked AI, which I

754
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 6: don't use a lot, like why do I love football all.

755
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: Of a sudden?

756
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 6: The only parallel is I started liking tomatoes when I

757
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 6: was twenty one all of a sudden, So like, why

758
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 6: do I? And AI told me it's because I'm in

759
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 6: this period of transition, and you're open to more things

760
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 6: during periods of transition. And Laura said in the Patreon

761
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 6: that might have been confirmation bias. You know, I heard

762
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 6: what I wanted to hear from AI, but I thought

763
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 6: that was for a robot a rather clever explanation.

764
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 3: Did AI mention Taylor Swift?

765
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: It's a question.

766
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 3: Because if I was going to get into football, that

767
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 3: would probably be the main reason. That's amazing. Well, my

768
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: love of the week is really not as fun, but

769
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 3: I have been. My daughter got a pair of ug

770
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 3: Ultra minis and I was like, those look comfortable. I'm

771
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 3: getting them too, and I wear those things everywhere, and

772
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 3: I realize my feet look like a thirteen year old

773
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: and I even have them like in a kid's size

774
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,719
Speaker 3: because I have small feet. And they're just some great shoes.

775
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 3: Like the teens and tweens know what they're doing with

776
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 3: their footwear. They're so comfortable.

777
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: And you're in Florida with your ugs on. I love that.

778
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 3: Hey, we're having a cold snap. It's going to like

779
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 3: forty somethings, so you know, forty dugs. Well, this has

780
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 3: been such a pleasure. I love this conversation too. Thank

781
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 3: you so much for coming on. Tell the listeners where

782
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 3: they can find you, including your substack, which now I

783
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: am very excited to check out.

784
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 6: Oh thank you so my substack at which now has

785
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 6: only three pos, but it is called Krin on people

786
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 6: and it's under my name Krin Hammond's And I'm also

787
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 6: on Instagram at former Corey fun Quich was my maiden name.

788
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 6: So happy to be found, and I'm of course around

789
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 6: on LinkedIn for my professional life.

790
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 3: Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on.

791
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 2: Thank you, Sarah, Well, that was great hearing from krin

792
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 2: Hammond's about her life, how she manages everything, and what

793
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 2: her ideas are for the empty nest phase. So today's

794
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 2: question is coming in about somebody who's got sort of

795
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: a challenging situation at work. She says, I'm currently in

796
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,479
Speaker 2: a very high level position in my field. It should

797
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 2: be amazing given how hard I've worked to get there,

798
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: but it is incredibly stressful and difficult, and she feels

799
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: like she isn't getting to do most of what she

800
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: loves about her work.

801
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 4: The biggest problem, though, is.

802
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: That she has been required to be full time in

803
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 2: the office this year, which is a daily four hour

804
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,240
Speaker 2: round trip commute. When she took this job, the agreement

805
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 2: was three days in the office, but she could not

806
00:34:58,560 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: get that in writing.

807
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: At the time.

808
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 2: It was a bit of a gentleman's agreement, as they say,

809
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 2: and then people were a little bit less gentlemanly than

810
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: they could have. I'm exhausted. It is not great for

811
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: my physical or mental health. I miss hanging out at

812
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: home and being with family and friends. I've been looking

813
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: around to see what else there is in my city,

814
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: but my field is very specialized, so there's not a

815
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: lot in my area. There's a great job I'd be

816
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 2: competitive for, but if I got it, I would need

817
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: to live away from home for at least two nights

818
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 2: a week.

819
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 4: So I feel so stuck.

820
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 2: On the one hand, I love the mission of my work,

821
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: and on the other I feel like I'm going to

822
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 2: miss my family and real life.

823
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 4: So what's your suggestion, Sarah.

824
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 3: I really cannot envision a scenario where someone's commuting four

825
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 3: hours a day and enjoying life.

826
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: I can't.

827
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 3: I can't wrap my head around it. I mean, maybe

828
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 3: they exist, but I do not blame you for feeling

829
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 3: miserable in your current situation. And it sounds like giving

830
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 3: your job. It's not even like an easy job. You're

831
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 3: like driving four hours and you have a stressful.

832
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 4: Job on top of that. So I don't know.

833
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 3: Laura always says, and I think she'll say in her

834
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 3: answer to the job market is rarely optimized. So if

835
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 3: you have this unique skill set, I just find it

836
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 3: hard to believe that you are in the only situation

837
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 3: that can work. I mean, if you could get another offer,

838
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 3: any offer, then maybe you could leverage that back at

839
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 3: your current company to be like, hey, could we go

840
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 3: back to that gentleman's agreement, and how about make it

841
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 3: two days a week or something like that, because they

842
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 3: may not want to lose you.

843
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 4: And I don't know.

844
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 3: I'm always astounded by what people tell me they end

845
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 3: up being offered when they're about to leave. It's usually

846
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 3: more than you would think. So I do think that

847
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 3: might be something to look into, ugh, Or is there

848
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 3: a way that you can just take a job that's

849
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 3: just far less optimized but remote or something like that,

850
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 3: because I just, yeah, I think you do need an out.

851
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it does sound pretty terrible, and there

852
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 2: is no harm in job hunting. Like ever, it's kind

853
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: of everyone is wise to keep an eye out for

854
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: what is there and to be actively working network because

855
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: you never know when something will come up that you

856
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,919
Speaker 2: might wish to do more than what you are currently doing.

857
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: I actually think that the two nights away from home

858
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: sounds a lot better than two hours each way on

859
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: the commute, because you would be able to use that

860
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: time for getting extra sleep, for relaxing, for exercising, for

861
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: calling friends like you could zoom with friends on those

862
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: nights when you're away from home. Obviously, the childcare piece

863
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 2: might be complicated, but you're a smart person, you can

864
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: probably figure it out. Which with that, like, you could

865
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: also figure that out now, because if you are having

866
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 2: to drive two hours each way, why don't you just

867
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: stay there like two nights a week, right, Like, can

868
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: you get an apartment that is close to your workplace?

869
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: Or I mean, have you even have like a friend

870
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: who's in the area wants to like double up with you,

871
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 2: you know, you rent an apartment together or something. You know,

872
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: a colleague who knows what the situation is. But probably

873
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 2: if you could find something that wasn't over the top expensive,

874
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 2: that was relatively close to your work and then you

875
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 2: stay there two nights a week, yes, it is more

876
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: money out the door, but on the other hand, the

877
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 2: improvement in your life could be huge because that would

878
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 2: be at least eight hours a week that you're not commuting.

879
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 2: And so if you're looking at a job where you'd

880
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 2: be gone two nights a week, like just you could

881
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: make that happen in your own current job. But whatever

882
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: you wind up doing. What I really hate is this

883
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 2: idea of being stuck. Because you aren't stuck.

884
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 4: You aren't stuck. We're in a free market economy.

885
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 2: There's a million things you could do even if it's

886
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 2: not purely optimized for your skill set. You took this

887
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 2: job at a moment when this job was offered in

888
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: the place where you are or could reasonably move to.

889
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 4: That doesn't mean that it is the only job out there.

890
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 2: You know, as Sarah was saying, like you did not

891
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: optimize on all dimensions. Clearly if you're driving two hours

892
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 2: each way, so you can optimize a slightly different way

893
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: and probably still find something that's much better in other

894
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 2: ways on this. But you could think about I'm going

895
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: to do this for two years and then I'm done, right,

896
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: Like that would be something you say, like, this is

897
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,959
Speaker 2: only two more years and I will even quit without

898
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 2: knowing what else I'm doing at the end of that.

899
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 2: But if I give myself two years, I'm for sure

900
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 2: going to find something right. So you might help with

901
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 2: your mental state doing something like that as well.

902
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 3: We really hope you get out of this job and

903
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: we would love an update, so please keep us posted.

904
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, let us know, let us know. We'd like to

905
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 4: hear what you do.

906
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: Well.

907
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: This has been best of both worlds Sarah's interviewing Coren

908
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: Hammond's We will be back next week.

909
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 4: With more on making work and life fit together.

910
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

911
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,

912
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 3: and you can.

913
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 2: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

914
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 4: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts.

915
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 2: Please join us next time for more on making work

916
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 2: and life work together.