Speaker 1: After a historic few days in Britain with the Queen's
Speaker 1: state funeral this week, it's really now back to business.
Speaker 1: It is back to business for the UK. But Dave
Speaker 1: really are a question, Like our last episode pointed out,
Speaker 1: was there ever really a break for the new government
Speaker 1: Behind the scenes, we know furious work going on for
Speaker 1: a huge economic support package bailing out households, businesses, also
Speaker 1: a vast rat of tax cards to try to stimulate
Speaker 1: the economy. Yes, it is a big week for the
Speaker 1: Prime Minister. She started the week by flying to the
Speaker 1: United Nations General Assembly New York, where I am. It's
Speaker 1: her first outing on the world stage as UK Premier.
Speaker 1: And then of course she ends the week in the
Speaker 1: House of Commons as her chancellor lays out a mini budget.
Speaker 1: And the day before that we're going to have the
Speaker 1: Bank of England the markets forecasting yet more rate hikes.
Speaker 1: That meeting was delayed for a week because of the
Speaker 1: official morning period, so we're gonna have the Bank of
Speaker 1: England Thursday afternoon. Dramatic moves there, and then this statement
Speaker 1: which really is a sort of emergency budget from the
Speaker 1: new Chancellor on Friday. She's really back full throttle under
Speaker 1: pressure over a deepening economic crisis. I'm David Merritt in
Speaker 1: the London studio and I'm francing like when the New
Speaker 1: York studio not together again, David, But this for the
Speaker 1: first time a long time, is actually for a reason.
Speaker 1: I'm here for the UN General Assembly and it's especially
Speaker 1: important for the UK Prime Minister. It's her first foreign
Speaker 1: trip as PM is first trip as well, exactly. So
Speaker 1: this is in the City Blombergs podcast, connecting you to
Speaker 1: the stories at the heart of the City of London.
Speaker 1: This week, as Francine mentioned, British politics has returned full
Speaker 1: throttle with the new Prime Minister considering to face pressure
Speaker 1: over a deepening economic crisis. So our Liz trusts and
Speaker 1: her team ready for this high stakes moment. And does
Speaker 1: the City of London think they're making the right calls?
Speaker 1: We'll hear from Eagle and General Chief Executive Officer Nigel Wilson,
Speaker 1: who says Chancellor Quasi Kwarteng has the right intent, but
Speaker 1: still the question remains can he deliver the first Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Opinion columnist Marcus Ashworth joins us in conversation over some
Speaker 1: headline grabbing policies that might be coming and whether Quartengs
Speaker 1: all systems go approach is winning anyone over. So Marcus,
Speaker 1: let's start with reports that the government is considering scrapping
Speaker 1: its cap on bankers bonuses. The problem is that if
Speaker 1: you focus on bonuses, it means a lot of people
Speaker 1: will be discontent. I think that I'm going to hope
Speaker 1: that this was just the leak, not a good sign
Speaker 1: of the start of a new government, but that old
Speaker 1: government had lots of leaks and this one probably is
Speaker 1: going to have the same problems. You wouldn't put this
Speaker 1: particular cart before the horse of of changing the rules
Speaker 1: generally in the city, which you've got thoroughly ignored throughout
Speaker 1: the whole Brexit process. And perhaps this new government wants
Speaker 1: to try and appreciate that one to the economy is
Speaker 1: focused on financial services. The city needs to have a
Speaker 1: clearer sense the direction and perhaps some of these rules
Speaker 1: need to be changed. But um, the government needs to
Speaker 1: do this in sync with the Bank of England and
Speaker 1: the wider administration part of it, and indeed with the
Speaker 1: with the city itself, which is going to be circumspect
Speaker 1: about bonuses, because this is actually a good thing for banks,
Speaker 1: not necessary for bankers. It's good to focusing the attractiveness
Speaker 1: of the city, but in the right way, and it
Speaker 1: needs to be part of an overall package, not leading
Speaker 1: with these ridiculous bonus right. I'm their very They're very
Speaker 1: headline catching, aren't they, But not a vote winner, well know,
Speaker 1: quite the reverse and more active, willful sort of please
Speaker 1: write this into your Labor Party h and liberal Democratic
Speaker 1: election of leaflets. But at the same point, if it's
Speaker 1: part of a wider package, then yet the government should
Speaker 1: not be in the paid having businesses. It was a
Speaker 1: rule forced on the city which never really worked with
Speaker 1: it very well. As a consequence, basic salaries went through
Speaker 1: the roof. It's an ugly situation. But this can be
Speaker 1: unwell at a better time, perhaps after a deal or
Speaker 1: the European Union there ever is to be one on
Speaker 1: regulatory equivalence. Moves like this make it less likely, not
Speaker 1: more likely, and that isn't what the city wants. So
Speaker 1: that was what I was going to ask, because I mean,
Speaker 1: is this move likely to provoke the European Union into
Speaker 1: some sort of tougher line on the city. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure. I think they're probably a bit stunned. Like
Speaker 1: the rest of US as in really this one. First,
Speaker 1: they know that a bit of divergence is going to come.
Speaker 1: That's written in the stars. The question is whether or
Speaker 1: not there can be an overall deal, whether the EU
Speaker 1: can relax that. Essentially the City is going to allow
Speaker 1: the control and perhaps the gentle stimulation of the European
Speaker 1: financial system now certain things like clearing. I think the
Speaker 1: city has won that argument. But with regards to you know,
Speaker 1: where bankers are based and should people trading Euros be
Speaker 1: based in Europe rather than just in the city, I
Speaker 1: think there's a there's a fair middle ground to be
Speaker 1: had and I think you know, we are getting towards
Speaker 1: their whether the city likes or not, because the ECB
Speaker 1: is quite insistent on this, but you know, the Bank
Speaker 1: of England. We have to play quite a careful game
Speaker 1: on this and it needs help from the government, not unhelped,
Speaker 1: but somewhere because this is not about bringing back the
Speaker 1: bankers that left because of Brexit. I don't think is
Speaker 1: that ship has sailed. Um. I think it does help
Speaker 1: US banks and their flexibility, and that's really the big
Speaker 1: audience here and across Europe and the city. You want
Speaker 1: to make sure your Golden Saxes and your and your
Speaker 1: Bank of America's, etcetera. Are encouraged to employ people here
Speaker 1: and be able to compensate them without less hassle that
Speaker 1: they would be maybe in Hong Kong or New York.
Speaker 1: And that's the comparison I think the bankers have left
Speaker 1: for for Europe. Are there for a reason I would
Speaker 1: likely stay there. And timing timing aside. You said the
Speaker 1: timing is bad potentially in terms of like the publicity,
Speaker 1: but just this message that the government is getting out
Speaker 1: of the business setting pay. I mean, surely that's kind
Speaker 1: of a good thing for Britain's image around the world,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah. I mean obviously doing the same with
Speaker 1: corporation tax. They're not going to hike it. They are
Speaker 1: trying to say global Britain. You know, lots of clacks
Speaker 1: alerts going off here, aren't there Aspiration Nation? Sure, that's
Speaker 1: what people thought when it was about Bagger's bonuses. But
Speaker 1: nonetheless it does send an image if they can back
Speaker 1: it up. But as a one off of his just
Speaker 1: a one off, then it's it's it's the wrong cart
Speaker 1: before you know, the much more valuable horse of of
Speaker 1: regulatory equipments with Europe, which may or may not be
Speaker 1: ever achieved. But this isn't necessary if this is just
Speaker 1: on its own the right way of going about it, Marcus,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Thanks Marcus. Earlier this month, in
Speaker 1: one of his first official acts, Quasi Quarteing held a
Speaker 1: meeting in Downing Street with a group of chief executives
Speaker 1: and senior figures from banks, insurers and asset managers, and
Speaker 1: he announced his plans to release a sort of big
Speaker 1: bang two of reforms to boost the city of London. Now,
Speaker 1: one of the people who was actually in that meeting,
Speaker 1: Legal ind General Chief executive Officer Nigel Wilson, joins us
Speaker 1: now for his take on the Chancellor's vision, and also
Speaker 1: with us is Bloomberg's finance editor through Griffiths. No I thot,
Speaker 1: it feels like it was only a few months ago
Speaker 1: when we spoke, but it we're on another planet now,
Speaker 1: aren't we. We We've got a different government, We've got
Speaker 1: a radical new agenda they're going to be pushing through now.
Speaker 1: The new Chancellor, Quasi Quateng hosted business leaders in Downing
Speaker 1: Street fairly recently. You were in that meeting. What can
Speaker 1: you tell us we'll do a bit of a reporting
Speaker 1: for us. What was it like in the room and
Speaker 1: did he convince you all that his plan is the
Speaker 1: right one? I think it was. First of all, it
Speaker 1: was great that invited us. You know, the first Cabinet
Speaker 1: meeting had just finished and the people who wanted to
Speaker 1: see were the chief executives of them are the biggest
Speaker 1: financial institutions in Britain. That was a very positive signal
Speaker 1: around it. And he's naturally a pretty up big guy,
Speaker 1: and so he was very upbeat about the prospects for
Speaker 1: the UK and he was actively listening as well as
Speaker 1: being on broadcast mode. So it was positive meeting from
Speaker 1: that point point of view. So you think the government
Speaker 1: is pivoting to listening a bit more? He said he
Speaker 1: was in broadcast mode as well. But you know it's
Speaker 1: no secret is it that Boris Johnson's government um had
Speaker 1: a different attitude throughout the Brexit years, perhaps to the
Speaker 1: business community. Without quoting him, I think Catherine I recruited
Speaker 1: a lot of time we spoke about this and that
Speaker 1: pivots are actually listening. Do you do you think there's
Speaker 1: a real kind of meat on the bones of that. Yes,
Speaker 1: I would hope. So I think we desperately need to
Speaker 1: have everybody pointing in the same direction that we need
Speaker 1: investment led growth across the UK. We've never had that
Speaker 1: for thirty or forty years, and you need the business
Speaker 1: leaders to support that investment led growth. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's still a huge amount of unused capital in the
Speaker 1: UK and we've got to use that capital to develop
Speaker 1: and deliver better outcomes. And it's great that the government
Speaker 1: wants to engage on that. What would be your top
Speaker 1: few things that you'd really like to hear from the
Speaker 1: new chancellor to kind of achieve this proper leveling up
Speaker 1: and and real kind of getting investment going to kind
Speaker 1: of do the kind of things that you that you
Speaker 1: would like to see. Yes, I mean, if you if
Speaker 1: you go back to the seventies and the eighties, I mean,
Speaker 1: the seventies are a predio ismal time and there's lots
Speaker 1: of parallels between what happened in the nineteen seventies in
Speaker 1: Britain and what is happening today with inflation rates, a
Speaker 1: war going on, oil prices, energy prices. We had three
Speaker 1: day a week and energy was rationed in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 1: We've got a similar sort of situation right now. But
Speaker 1: what happened in ninety in the early eighties was big
Speaker 1: back and actually policy, regulation, planning all work together and
Speaker 1: we built this new city called the City of City
Speaker 1: of London and it became very dynamic. We stopped there, though,
Speaker 1: and we never went and made that right across We
Speaker 1: never delivered right across the country. So London, you know,
Speaker 1: became this incredible shining staff for the for the for
Speaker 1: the world. You know, in the seventies, rubbish was piled
Speaker 1: thirty feet high in parts of London and learning was
Speaker 1: depopulating at the time, and we saw a dramatic turnaround.
Speaker 1: We saw a dramatic turnaround in the economy between Nino
Speaker 1: n three and you know, I had this discussion with
Speaker 1: John Major, you know where you know, there was a
Speaker 1: huge difference between between it because we started to get
Speaker 1: policy planning and regulation right to create the right backdrop.
Speaker 1: And that's what I want to hear the government talking about.
Speaker 1: And it matters for the whole country that we get
Speaker 1: policy planning and regulation and everybody collaborates together because there's
Speaker 1: still the money around, you know, the big banks, in
Speaker 1: part by accident, we ring fence the big banks, and
Speaker 1: so there was ring fence. Banks are sitting on huge
Speaker 1: amounts of capital, the pension funds are sitting on huge
Speaker 1: amounts of capital. The insurance companies have huge amount of capital.
Speaker 1: We need to redeploy that capital into useful activities and
Speaker 1: there's tons of opportunities for doing that. Virtually every sector
Speaker 1: in the UK can have a change of regulation, a
Speaker 1: bit better planning and more investment and that will allow
Speaker 1: you GDP to grow and per capital income to grow,
Speaker 1: and we haven't seen that for a long time. So
Speaker 1: it's specifically to get that done. Then are we talking about,
Speaker 1: I mean things like solvency too is one. You're talking
Speaker 1: about freeing up capital that's currently tied up. That's sort
Speaker 1: of reform that needs to happen. Yes, I mean solvently
Speaker 1: two is the easiest win because it doesn't have the
Speaker 1: overlay of basil, which the banks have to a more
Speaker 1: complicated situation as a consequence of that. But someboty two
Speaker 1: we've had the right to change since sixteen. For whatever reason,
Speaker 1: we've chosen not to do that, and that's an easy
Speaker 1: win for the government to encourage more investment by firms
Speaker 1: like ours and we're putting our hands up and say yes,
Speaker 1: we'd like to invest more in the UK because it
Speaker 1: is a great place to invest. And policy has not
Speaker 1: been changed fast enough. It's been a very difficult time
Speaker 1: for the government to get through real changes in policy,
Speaker 1: and all of these things have to change, and the
Speaker 1: change in a crisis. When I talked about the seventies,
Speaker 1: the part of the reason that we got stuff done
Speaker 1: in the eighties because there had been a crisis. There
Speaker 1: was a crisis. Check the records, big growth here for
Speaker 1: the UK. And we're in a crisis now right, we're
Speaker 1: in an energy crisis. When an inflation crisis, we're war
Speaker 1: obviously the Ukraine with Russia. Yes, we are in a crisis,
Speaker 1: and I think that's why, you know, just blaming the
Speaker 1: Bank of England for inflation isn't the right answer, and
Speaker 1: it's actually you know, America has got a very similar
Speaker 1: level of inflation. Most of Europe has a very similar
Speaker 1: level of inflation. Inflation is very complicated. We've lived in
Speaker 1: a world where we hadn't really considered inflation for a
Speaker 1: very long period of time. Rates have been very constant
Speaker 1: and so there hasn't been not so much going on
Speaker 1: now we've got an enormous amount of things going wrong
Speaker 1: and people are very fearful of that. And Nigel, what
Speaker 1: about tax? How how important is it for the government
Speaker 1: to say something on tax? Obviously we know where what
Speaker 1: List Trusts is likely to say it's been very well
Speaker 1: flagged on corporation tax. But do you think that in
Speaker 1: fact there could be more that's done on tax across
Speaker 1: the business world or indeed perhaps for the financial sector
Speaker 1: that could kind of really kick start investment. I think
Speaker 1: tax is one item, but actually it's not such a
Speaker 1: high priority item right now as many of the other
Speaker 1: other issues that we have. People have underinvested in Britain
Speaker 1: during numerous different tax regimes over the last thirty or
Speaker 1: forty years, and that's because of the lack of collaboration
Speaker 1: and coordination across the across the across the UK, which
Speaker 1: has meant our GDP per capital has performed poorly against
Speaker 1: lots of our peer groups. And we have you know,
Speaker 1: as we know, only London has a hyper capital income
Speaker 1: of any of any city or town, any large city
Speaker 1: or town in the UK was compared with Dresden, Leipzig
Speaker 1: and Berlin. And that's in a generation they've caught up
Speaker 1: in past past us and that's because of these reasons
Speaker 1: that we haven't done the right things here in the
Speaker 1: UK for a long period of time. People haven't collaborated together,
Speaker 1: and people have pointed fingers that other people giving them
Speaker 1: the blame when it actually isn't their fault. So do
Speaker 1: you think corporation tax doesn't have a huge effect. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, we've had a concert the it's been a
Speaker 1: previous Conservative chancellors right who raised corporation tax and said, look,
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily drive away investment. Trust is pretty clear,
Speaker 1: she says. And Quartack they're saying, look, we have to
Speaker 1: have lower corporation tax rates that are than our neighbors,
Speaker 1: than our European competitors if we're going to attract businesses.
Speaker 1: Is she broke up. It's not the wrong tree, but
Speaker 1: it's just one of the elements. And I think it
Speaker 1: goes back to you know what, what is a comprehensive
Speaker 1: package that makes the UK more attractive. It isn't a
Speaker 1: single item if all of the other things are. You know,
Speaker 1: if it's going to take your seven years to get
Speaker 1: planning in London, doesn't matter what the corporation taxes. To
Speaker 1: be frank you keep talking about planning. Actually, and this
Speaker 1: is really interesting, I think because actually this is sort
Speaker 1: of out of the remit I guess, of the normal
Speaker 1: kind of chancellors plans. But are you saying, do you
Speaker 1: think this government is going to finally face through Well,
Speaker 1: they talked about sort of cuts, making it easier to
Speaker 1: push through programs, getting rid of some of the planning
Speaker 1: laws that's pretty controversial in some parts of the country.
Speaker 1: We have to be more forward looking about changing plan
Speaker 1: changing planning, using compultory purchase orders, which people have always
Speaker 1: been reluctant to do in the past. And we have
Speaker 1: to be bald about these things. You know, when I
Speaker 1: think of how much the city changed in the in
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties for the better. We have to do
Speaker 1: that right across the country. That's just an absolute given.
Speaker 1: You know. Corporation tax is just one of those signals
Speaker 1: that actually we are open for business to do more
Speaker 1: investment here in the UK and you'll see a more
Speaker 1: dynamic government as a consequencer. That's the messaging they're giving.
Speaker 1: That's certainly the messaging that the that we the chief
Speaker 1: executives of the financial services sector picked up and we
Speaker 1: now we we have our job to deliver, and we
Speaker 1: try and deliver, you know, continuously and for a long
Speaker 1: period of time. The government has to do the same.
Speaker 1: To talking about messaging, I mean this boat, the banker
Speaker 1: bonus cap that is called a lot of headlines in
Speaker 1: the last few days. There's Trust is in New York.
Speaker 1: As we record this, she's told our reporter that, um, well,
Speaker 1: this might not be particularly popular. It's not a vote winner,
Speaker 1: is it. But is it about the messaging that sends
Speaker 1: to investors, to financial institutions that the government shouldn't be
Speaker 1: in the business of setting pay and leave it up
Speaker 1: to corporations. Yes, I think this is about messaging. This
Speaker 1: is not about massive amounts of um and it's you know,
Speaker 1: I think this is one of the things that leaked
Speaker 1: ahead of time because it's an immotive issue and an
Speaker 1: unpopular issue, and therefore people want to rant rant about it.
Speaker 1: But actually it's just one of the tools and the
Speaker 1: many tools that the government is trying to adopt to
Speaker 1: change the position of the UK. Now, so I do
Speaker 1: wonder on this planning stuff. You know, Trust and Quotaine
Speaker 1: have been very keen to talk about how radical they
Speaker 1: are and how keen they are to be bold and
Speaker 1: take on all these sorts of foes, real or imagined
Speaker 1: around the world. Do you think that they have a
Speaker 1: sort of appetite to listen when it comes to these
Speaker 1: perhaps slightly less kind of exciting sounding policies for for
Speaker 1: the UK. And again when we kind of put the
Speaker 1: overlay of the fact that it's two years till the
Speaker 1: next general election, Yeah, that's the awkward thing because planning
Speaker 1: takes longer than two years from what things in the UK. Therefore,
Speaker 1: even if you want to start stuff under the current regime,
Speaker 1: just just it's quite difficult to get these You know,
Speaker 1: we've talked about shove already products for a very long
Speaker 1: period of time and we haven't seen anywhere near enough
Speaker 1: of them happen across the UK. Does anybody think we
Speaker 1: don't need more affordable housing, social housing, built to rent
Speaker 1: housing here in the here in the UK. That absolutely
Speaker 1: the case. Would we like to see much more progress
Speaker 1: made in terms of investment in climate change? Absolutely? Would
Speaker 1: would we like to be to have the equivalent of
Speaker 1: Portugal in terms of our five gene network And the
Speaker 1: answer to that is yes, these things have not happened
Speaker 1: and the conscovered government has been on watch why these
Speaker 1: things have happened. So actually you need to change something
Speaker 1: to get them to happen, because the capital is around,
Speaker 1: sitting around waiting to invest in these things, and it's
Speaker 1: barriers around policy, planning and regulation that have stopped it.
Speaker 1: But when we look at London's record of the last
Speaker 1: couple of years for attracting capital, protracting companies to raise capital,
Speaker 1: even you know that crown has been lost, hasn't it
Speaker 1: to other centers? Do you sit coming back? Yeah, well
Speaker 1: it's not going to come back unless we change things.
Speaker 1: And that means that you know, regulation has to be
Speaker 1: has to change change quicker. You know, if we go
Speaker 1: on to you know, the whole digital digital network that
Speaker 1: we see and and five g across across Europe, we've
Speaker 1: fallen right behind lots of places. We can't let that happen.
Speaker 1: Where we're you know, in the teens, not at the top.
Speaker 1: We want to be at the top, not in the teams.
Speaker 1: And you think Quantine as the matter, Now I think
Speaker 1: he's he's certainly got the intent. You know, it's now
Speaker 1: can you deliver? It's the delivery and execution. We've been
Speaker 1: incredibly welcomed in the United States. You know, if we
Speaker 1: were as welcomed in the in the UK as we
Speaker 1: were in the United States, that would be a fantastic thing.
Speaker 1: And we we have our capital that we can allocate
Speaker 1: outside the KOK of our UK annuity assets over fifty
Speaker 1: of them outside the UK outside of the UK already
Speaker 1: under the current the current rules, you know, and that's
Speaker 1: not the you know, these are backing UK liabilities. So
Speaker 1: we've got the diverse a vacation through international rather than
Speaker 1: through investing in a different different types of assets here
Speaker 1: in the UK. That's not the best solution. So delivered
Speaker 1: that I think there's trust. Use that word, didn't she
Speaker 1: and her first speech as Prime minister. We're going to deliver.
Speaker 1: We're gonna deliver. How long do you give them before
Speaker 1: you can tell whether they're going to be We'll see
Speaker 1: on Friday whether it's solid. Me two gets a strong
Speaker 1: mention and actually there's a plan and a timetable for
Speaker 1: getting changes here in there here in the UK. And
Speaker 1: I think all of my banking colleagues will see that
Speaker 1: as a positive signal if they've sorted out the easiest problem,
Speaker 1: which is solvings. You two and then move out to
Speaker 1: move on to some of the more difficult ones around
Speaker 1: around banking and also fun management. So do you think
Speaker 1: we're at a moment where people might come to the
Speaker 1: view that both banks and insurers in this country simply
Speaker 1: are being forced to hold too much capital as as
Speaker 1: a consequence of the financial crisis and that and that
Speaker 1: you know, perhaps while still being proved intensensible, actually that
Speaker 1: needs to be fundamentally reconsidered. You know, we're more talking
Speaker 1: about the acid eligibility, what it is we're allowed to
Speaker 1: invest in. That's why over fifty of our assets are
Speaker 1: outside of the outside of the UK. If there was
Speaker 1: more assets that were qualified here in the UK, we'd
Speaker 1: invest in them here in the UK. And so the
Speaker 1: the capital treatment is just a nudge, And actually it's
Speaker 1: a nudge which will be broadly equivalent with what's going
Speaker 1: to happen in in the U anyway. So it's not
Speaker 1: that these these are going to hugely divert just that
Speaker 1: Europe you set some rules which are not the same
Speaker 1: as the American rules. So the Americans, although they have equivalents,
Speaker 1: have much better and more attractive capital rules than than
Speaker 1: we do here in the UK. Nigel Wilson, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Thank you once again. Will
Speaker 1: you come back in a few months in times, I
Speaker 1: will be back, don't worry, a great story to tell.
Speaker 1: Thanks are listening to this week's in the City. We'll
Speaker 1: be back next week, but in the meantime, if you
Speaker 1: like our show, please head on over to Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts and rate, review and subscribe.
Speaker 1: And if you're looking for a daily rap of the
Speaker 1: stories that matter in the UK, sign up now for
Speaker 1: a newsletter, The read Out with Allegra Stratton on Bloomberg
Speaker 1: dot com Slash Newsletters, or check out the show notes
Speaker 1: for a link. This episode was hosted by Me David
Speaker 1: Merritt and for a good portion of it me Francin Lakwa.
Speaker 1: It was produced by Summersati Special thanks to Marcus Ashworth,
Speaker 1: Catherine Griffiths and Nigel Wilson.