1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 2: I had to get out of Durham. I just I 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 2: had a hongering for the life I saw in Vote, 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 2: and I never calculated that I am going to pass 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 2: a trajectory to get to Vote, to get them most 7 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 2: of my data. It just happened for me. And I'll 8 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 2: tell you why it happened for me, because knowledge is power, 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: and I did my homework. 10 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. My name is Laverne Cox. 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: I can't remember the first time I saw Andre Leon 12 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: Tally on television, but I know the first time I 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: saw Andre Leon Tally on television, I became immediately obsessed 14 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: with him. Andre Leon Tally felt like this black king. 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: There was something so grand and fabulous about him, this 16 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: tall black man who had this sort of Transatlantic accent, 17 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: and who was multi lingual and learned and just over 18 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: the top and fabulous. Andrea was just fabulous, so singular 19 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: and so unique, but beyond that was also just so smart, 20 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: so smart, just knew of what he spoke. And as 21 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: I got to know more about him and his work 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: and his writings and his influence on the fashion world. 23 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: I fell more in love with him, and I got 24 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: to meet him in twenty fifteen on Watch What Happens 25 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 1: Live and got to spend some time with him over 26 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: the years, and I never stopped being obsessed. So when 27 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: we lost Andrea unexpectedly on January eighteenth, twenty twenty two, 28 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: the fashion world was rocked. I personally was devastated, and 29 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: I knew when I came back first two that I 30 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: wanted to do a tribute to Andre Leon Tally and 31 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: that we must keep his memory and his legacy alive. 32 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: So to talk about the inimitable Andre Leon Tally, we 33 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: have two guests. First, I talk with fashion Walk of 34 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: Fame designer and his very good friend, the legend, Norma Kamali, 35 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: And later you'll hear from Robin Gavon, a Bullet Serprize 36 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: winning reporter for The Washington Post who followed his work 37 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: over many years. Alrighty, here we go. Norma Kamali is 38 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: an American fashion designer known for her timeless designs and 39 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: her iconic sleeping bag coat that came to be a 40 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: part of Andrea's signature look. Always on the cutting edge, 41 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: She's credited with several fashion innovations, like using parachute material 42 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies and introducing at leisure wear in 43 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. Norma Kamali designed the red one piece 44 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: bathing suit faira Faucet war It's an Her iconic nineteen 45 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: seventy six poster that swimsuit is now in the Simithsonian 46 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: and the Metropolitan Museum of Art includes her work in 47 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: its fashion collections. Andre Leon tally called her a genius 48 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: a fashion Please enjoy my conversation with the one and 49 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 1: only the Norma Kamali. Hello, Norma Kamali, Welcome to the podcast. 50 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: How are you feeling today. 51 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 3: I'm feeling great, so nice to be with you, finally, 52 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 3: finally even meet with you. 53 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: I'm really really honored and God, you're such a legend 54 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: in an icon and I really would love to talk 55 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: to you about so much. But when I knew I 56 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: wanted to do a second season of this podcast, I 57 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: knew I wanted to take some time to talk about 58 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: Andre and interestingly enough, your iconic sleeping bag coat that 59 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: Andrea wore that has been it is endued. I believe 60 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: it's the fiftieth anniversary of that coat. It's the nineteen 61 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: seventy three that we designed it for the first time. Yes, 62 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: So we're celebrating the fiftyth anniversary of your Sleeping Bag coat. 63 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: And it recently sold at Christie's at auction. It was 64 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: part of Andrea on Tally's collection that was sold for 65 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: charity after he passed away early this year. It sold 66 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: for twenty five thousand dollars, which is amazing for charity. 67 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: It's iconic, and I think it retails for quite a 68 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: bit less. 69 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 4: I think a little bit a little bit less, yeah, 70 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 4: it says, but you know, we both love Andre and 71 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 4: anything that has his vibration in it is worth more 72 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 4: than that. 73 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 3: And whoever bought it is blessed to have that energy 74 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 3: as a part of their lives now. And so it 75 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 3: isn't really about the coat. It's what that coat wrapped 76 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 3: and hugged him and I'm so happy it did. And 77 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 3: whoever has it has all of that wonderfulness that Andrea 78 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 3: gave to everyone. 79 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 5: So it was a good deal. 80 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And the regret how regal he was in it too, 81 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: as regal as he would be, and one of his 82 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: you know, sort of custom tom for captains. He was 83 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: a regal in your sleeping bag. It's so true. 84 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 5: It's so true. 85 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: When did you meet Andre Leon Talley for the first time? 86 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: Do you recall? 87 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 3: Oh, you know, I don't remember the exact date, but 88 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 3: he'd just really come to New York. He was early, uh, 89 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 3: and his time here and and I remember meeting him 90 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: when he worked for Diana of Reland at the Men 91 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: so very early. And Diana of Reland asked for me 92 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 3: to do three pieces of my parachute clothing for the MET. 93 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 3: And it was the first time in any of the 94 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 3: MET exhibits that a living designer had anything exhibited, and 95 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 3: there were parachute pieces, and I did silver skull caps. 96 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: I forget what year you did the parachute piece of 97 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: the first time. 98 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 5: I think for the MET it was probably. 99 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 3: Either seventy around seventy four, and they had she had 100 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 3: fans blowing them up, and she invited me to come 101 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 3: before the exhibit opened to see it. And you know, 102 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 3: I'm like a new designer beyond cult, like underground cult 103 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 3: and under underground, and I'm thinking, what the hell am 104 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 3: I doing going to see Diana? Really, I don't know 105 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 3: what I'm doing, Like what's going on? And Andre was 106 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 3: there and he was working on the exhibit. So that 107 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 3: was my first you know, the two of us were 108 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 3: like in our like, oh my god, can you believe this? 109 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 3: And so when we met and became friends really started 110 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 3: very soon after that, and we just connected immediately immediately, 111 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 3: and our friendship lasted many many years, as you know. 112 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 3: And I saw him grow and evolve and like, you 113 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: be a pioneer and be a first and be brave 114 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 3: enough to say, this is who I am, and I'm 115 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 3: going to show you, and I'm going to show you 116 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 3: what that can be and how that can change the world. 117 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 3: And he decided that that was what he was going 118 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 3: to do, and he did it, and he knew he 119 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 3: had to be the best, because if you're going to 120 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: be brave, you got to be better. You got to 121 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 3: be better than everybody else. And he was extraordinary. And 122 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: I think it's not just that he opened the door 123 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 3: for other people and all of those cliche he really 124 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 3: chained and the way people looked at fashion. It wasn't 125 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 3: just about who he was that changed. It was what 126 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 3: he did also changed it, which is greater. 127 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: You called him one of the great storytellers, but fashion 128 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: and one of your conversations with him, and for me 129 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: that resonated so deeply, the way he would talk about 130 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,239 Speaker 1: the clothes and describe them. I remember in his first 131 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: piece that he wrote for Women's Were Daily, and when 132 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: he went to Paris in nineteen seventy nine, I believe, 133 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: and wrote about Santa Bron's Broadway collection. Missus Rieland sent 134 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: him a letter that he kept till the end of 135 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: his life that said, you wrote about the clothes so beautifully, 136 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: and they came to life, And they really the way 137 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: that he sort of evoked and understood the intention of 138 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: the designer and the references and just the clothes came 139 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: to life in a way that I never really felt 140 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: with anyone else. 141 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: The things that he would write about and the way 142 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 3: he wrote about it was so magical, and I if 143 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 3: you think about it, he came from an environment that 144 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 3: was come. You could not be more different, you could 145 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 3: not be more isolated. 146 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 5: From who he became. 147 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 3: And I think what happens is the fantasy of that 148 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 3: growing up as a child, and the dreams and the wishes, 149 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 3: and he became that. 150 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: And ultimately he was an outsider and so he was 151 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: able to see I remember him talking about his first 152 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: interview with mister Lagerfeld for interview in nineteen seventy five. 153 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: Before five, I think he moved to New York in 154 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: nectey seventy four, and he talked about reading everything about Lagerfeld, 155 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: and he had read The Fashionable Savages, and so when 156 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: he worked for mister Fairchild, that was sort of his reference. 157 00:09:54,559 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: And there's such a voracious consumption of fashion of that 158 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: world that he would then enter, but it was as 159 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: an outsider, and so he was able perhaps to see it. 160 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: I'm having an aha moment as you talk. He was 161 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: probably able to see it differently because he wasn't from it. 162 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, I'm positive of that. And in fact, 163 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 3: in our many conversations he references his childhood a lot 164 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:29,719 Speaker 3: and all aspects of it. There's I think the drama 165 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 3: and the regalness, and the way his grandmother treated the 166 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 3: idea of being right, being proper, being just a church 167 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 3: going woman, a woman who cared about detail and everything, 168 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 3: and he worshiped her and she instilled in him excellence, perfection, 169 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 3: all of those things, and he just took the fan 170 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 3: to see. 171 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 5: Of all of that. 172 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 3: He can remember every hat she wore, all of that 173 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:10,599 Speaker 3: never left his memory, so he could probably have described 174 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 3: as a boy that hat a million times over in 175 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 3: his mind. And you know, one of the kind people 176 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 3: are very special because nothing is wasted, no minute is wasted. 177 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 3: They don't waste time on unnecessary things. Everything is focused 178 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 3: and with a purpose. And he truly represented somebody who 179 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 3: did not waste any time. He didn't spend time on 180 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 3: stupid things or something that wouldn't be meaningful for him. Right, 181 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 3: this was who he was. His grandmother was very instrumental 182 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 3: in giving him that structure. 183 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: Yes, he talks about how precisely what her cleanliness that 184 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: she would iron the sheefs, and how organized she was 185 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: in manners. He talked so much about having good manners, 186 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: and he was like, I was able to go into 187 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: these spaces in Paris because I had good manners and 188 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: that came from her, this segregated South in this woman 189 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: who was a domestic worker like my grandmother. And it's 190 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: just very very inspiring. Yeah, I want to know fun 191 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: stories that you made. I'm just am thinking about the seventies. 192 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: You too, talk about the seventies and how magical they 193 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: were in New York and I you know, sort of 194 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: fantasized about that time. I'm not I just turned fifty one, 195 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: so I'm not quite old enough to have been around 196 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: in New York in the seventies, and so I imagine, 197 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: I know you. I know your first husband was a 198 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: frequented Studio of fifty four, and that the door of 199 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: people the Studio fifty four loved your sleeping back cote. 200 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: But you didn't go out much, I understand now. 201 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 3: So I was busy making clothes from people who went 202 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 3: to Studio fifty four, which meant, you know, or this 203 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 3: is like early in my career. I'm sewing and I'm 204 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 3: like in with my group and we would work into 205 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 3: the night because we were making so many clothes that 206 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 3: you could dance, and I was making clothes out of 207 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 3: swimmer fabric because everybody was sweating and dancing. So it 208 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 3: was like perfect. But what happened was my husband and 209 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 3: I split up, and Ian Schrager, who was one of 210 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 3: the partners of Studio fifty four, asked me to make 211 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 3: Grace Jones costume for New Year's Eve. 212 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: Oh my god, the iconic, the iconic I know, New 213 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: Year's Eve. Yeah, there's so many I wasn't there, but 214 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: I tell me everything. 215 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 3: Yes, so and all the dancers, and so I met 216 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 3: him and through that invitation, and then we started. We 217 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 3: were together for a couple of years during Studio fifty four. 218 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 3: But I never went to Studio fifty four, believe it 219 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: or not. I was busy making clothes. So the beauty 220 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 3: of Studio fifty four was people like Andre, people in 221 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: the fashion industry, in entertainment. Everybody could go there and 222 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 3: be who they were. 223 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: Megan r for just a second, is this the look 224 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: that you designed? 225 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 5: It the look it is? That's it? 226 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: Oh, I know this very well. I didn't know it 227 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: was you. I'm obsessed with Grace Jones. 228 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 3: Well, talk about unique people. The seventies sort of bred 229 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 3: unique people, and Andre came to New York. A lot of 230 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 3: people came to New York. New York was a shit show. 231 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 3: It was hell. You we think New York is dangerous now, 232 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 3: and it isn't perfect for sure, but it was so 233 00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 3: dangerous then, and so people were fleeing the city, except 234 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 3: for people who were living in places where they didn't 235 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 3: feel comfortable, like they couldn't be who they were, or 236 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: women who were understanding that they could be equal to 237 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 3: men and decided to leave marriages and come to New York. 238 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 3: And so there was this influx of creativity. Imagination flourished, 239 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 3: talent flourished. It was a time, I would say, and 240 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 3: Ian Schrieger both we both agree that in fashion it 241 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 3: was a time where the amount of creative people in 242 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 3: one place in New York City never was passed. And 243 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 3: the output of new ideas, design ideas, creativity in every 244 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 3: area from window to home design to you name it. 245 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 3: Everything but fashion took over. And so Studio fifty four 246 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 3: was the place where you could go and see everybody, 247 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 3: and designers had their little nook areas. And of course 248 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 3: Andre was there every night. You could see ten thousand 249 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 3: photos of him, and he was a skinny, tall, impeccably dressed, 250 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 3: impeccably dressed personality. He found himself like many people, and 251 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 3: that's why New York benefited so much. Sometimes the worst 252 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 3: situation opens the door for opportunity. And while I think 253 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 3: amazing things are going on today and I look at 254 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 3: the future with awe and excitement, there are different pockets 255 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 3: of time in my seventy eight years of life that 256 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 3: you see something really special happened here. But the freedom 257 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 3: that people found in being themselves in New York. Here 258 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 3: this freedom was being expressed, and I just, I don't know. 259 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 3: I wore velvet gowns in Central Park every day to 260 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 3: walk my dog. I was surrounded by friends that loved 261 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 3: the same things I did. 262 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 5: That was the seventies. 263 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 3: You just, you know, it was a very special time. 264 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: Was just thinking about that time period and the Warhol 265 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: of it all. And I was thinking a lot about 266 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 1: Andrea and fran Lebowitz and how both of them older 267 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: sort of struggled financially and came through that Warhol era. 268 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: And you know, I think there were elements of exploitation, 269 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: but there were also these people who found ways to 270 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: kind of exist through the kindness of their friends. So 271 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: it was so much about relationships. It was so much 272 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: about you know, I have this amazing friend and these 273 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: these are my friends, and so I'm going to be 274 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: taken care of in this way. And so there maybe 275 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: wasn't like, you know, I should be saving or investing 276 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: or in the other artists. And I have wonderful friends 277 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: and I'm living my life. And so that's what that energy, 278 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: that sort of warhouling and kind of vibe that really 279 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: feels so much like it was seventies and eighties and 280 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: Milliontily died. 281 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 3: I think your thoughts about Warhol and that influence and 282 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 3: people taking care of each other, and nobody ever talks 283 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 3: about It's very perceptive because today I think about this 284 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 3: all the time. In the seventies, we of course didn't 285 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 3: have social media, we didn't have phones, we didn't have cameras. 286 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: We weren't taking pictures of each other all the time. 287 00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 3: But all the time we were touching it each other. 288 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 3: We were laying on top of each other, we were 289 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 3: wrapped around each other. We would sit in the park 290 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 3: and just be connected physically. And friendships were so deep, 291 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 3: so strong, because you can have a communication that when 292 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 3: you look at someone and touch them while they're telling 293 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 3: you about a painful experience, you are one with them, 294 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 3: which is different than connecting through a device or sharing 295 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 3: an experience through a photograph. We would be together, it 296 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 3: was just that important, and people helped each other. Nobody 297 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 3: would ever not have a place to stay ever, Nobody 298 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: would ever not have food to eat or a holiday 299 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 3: to be at. 300 00:19:58,359 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 5: Never happen. 301 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 3: It's just we're more isolated now and it's a little 302 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 3: dangerous not to have that connection. But Your perception about 303 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 3: that is so important because it was so much a 304 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 3: part of the creativity too. You feed creativity from one another, right, 305 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 3: you're not stealing it, you're inspiring one. Like we get 306 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 3: excited just talking about things, So what about this and 307 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 3: what happens? And the energy would just explode. And Warhol 308 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 3: was a creative firecracker. He just ignited things. He ignited them, 309 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 3: and they would happen everywhere. I remember he'd come into 310 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 3: my store quietly and he'd walk around and take polaroids 311 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: of everything, and I'm seeing these polaroids auctioned everywhere now. 312 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 3: He would take polaroids off the window display and he 313 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 3: would say, I like this one. This is a nice one, 314 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 3: you know. My favorite one was and just walk in 315 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 3: and out or bring in some people to shop. 316 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 5: And that was it. 317 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 3: Do you know if he likes something I was doing, 318 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 3: he wanted to share it with other people. It was 319 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 3: like that kind of a thing. And so people were 320 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 3: very helpful to one. 321 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: Another and thinking of taking care of people. I love 322 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: the story that Andre often tells about. I forget what 323 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: year John Galliano had done a show and anything. It 324 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: was some of these women escaping from Russia and these 325 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: big sort of ball gowns that were amazing, and you know, 326 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: and Gulliana was poor and he wasn't able to do 327 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 1: another show and Andre was like, well, you have to 328 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: do another show. And Andre, you know, they talks to 329 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: Anna and they FLI John to New York and Andre 330 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: basically finds a funder, finds the next show and make 331 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: sure that the talent is cultivated, just because it was 332 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: like the talent was just so important Andre. 333 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 5: That was his job. I think he felt that was 334 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 5: his job. 335 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 3: That's what I do, That's what I do, endless, endlessly, 336 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 3: and he was a facilitator for connecting people and making 337 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 3: things happen. He just would go out of his way 338 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 3: to do things. I mean that Galliano story, he worked 339 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 3: hard to make that happen. He worked hard. He makes 340 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 3: it look so easy, but it wasn't easy. He worked 341 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 3: really hard. And sometimes when you make it look too easy, 342 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 3: people don't appreciate how much is involved and how big 343 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 3: a gift that is. But he didn't carry on about that. 344 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,479 Speaker 3: He would never do that. But you can be sure 345 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 3: he made Galliano do something for somebody though, do you 346 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 3: know what I mean, I'm going to do this for 347 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 3: you but then you're going to help somebody else. And 348 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,959 Speaker 3: that was very much a seventies thing. That was just 349 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 3: that was a behavior of the seventies. But because he 350 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 3: was in this situation he was in and he was 351 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 3: able to see talent early on that he didn't want 352 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 3: to get lost in the weeds. He really really facilitated 353 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 3: to make things happen for a lot of talented people. 354 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: I think when I think of Andre, what I you know, 355 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: years before I met him, I saw him on television. 356 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: I was like, who is this black man who is 357 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: who speaks this way and is so sort of over 358 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: the top but knows what he's talking about and has 359 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: such a sense of authority and regal. He's just so regal, 360 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: And these are the kinds of black people I love. 361 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: I love Jesse Norman and so I you know, it's 362 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: interesting being a child to think about like sort of 363 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: becoming obsessed with Jesse Norman in high school and then 364 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: later Andre the on tally who are very poor, both 365 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: from the South, multi lingual, you know, black people who 366 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: were royalty, and that's what I just gravitated towards that 367 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: and loved that and obsessed with that. And there was 368 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: such a sense of we must be excellent and that's it. 369 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: What have I got to be? Yeah? But what I 370 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: love about you as well, and I wonder is that 371 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: reading about you and researching about you and your story 372 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: you're growing up in this immigrant neighborhood, in this very 373 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: small apartment, that you understood too that you had to 374 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: be excellent. Did that come from your mother? 375 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 3: I think yeah, I think especially when you're different from 376 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 3: everyone else, and you know, I would dream that I'd 377 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 3: find money on the streets so that we would have money. 378 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 3: You know, it was like there's a there's some a 379 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 3: different kind of experience that you have, and you realize 380 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 3: is that if you're gonna go to school and be 381 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 3: able to get the kind of education you want, you 382 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 3: have to be excellent because there's not going to be 383 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 3: any money to make that happen. And my mother really 384 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 3: really pushed on education, education, excellence. She wanted us to 385 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 3: be on a level playing field, but it meant we 386 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 3: had to work hard, and she pushed us. And then 387 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 3: I realized I could see how excellence and perfection and 388 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 3: reaching for the best, and like you seeing people that 389 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 3: really excited you because they were so extraordinary and special, 390 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 3: that was my secret sauce. That was the way I 391 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 3: was going to do it. And I talked to kids 392 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 3: I grew up with in the neighborhood and they said, 393 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 3: you always had an agenda. 394 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 5: It's like, how I have an agenda. I was a kid. No, 395 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 5: you had an agenda. 396 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 3: I was like, I don't know what you're talking about, 397 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 3: but obviously I did. The agenda was I have to 398 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 3: be better because if I'm not, I'm going to disappear. 399 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 3: I'm just going to disappear. I don't have the same opportunity, 400 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 3: so I have to make this happen. And I am 401 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 3: so grateful, Laverne. I am incredibly grateful for my childhood 402 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 3: because I feel everything I can do today is because 403 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 3: I've become fearless of making mistakes, doing things wrong. 404 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 5: I don't care. 405 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 3: I just know I'm aiming for excellence. If I drop 406 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 3: below excellence, the failure is going to be redeemable. 407 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: What I love about this conversation, Yes it's about Andre, 408 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: but I love chatting with you now and seventy eight 409 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: year old normal mom, Thank oh my god, I can't 410 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: even I'm really just I'm a starstruck. But I think 411 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: about you in the nineteen sixties working for the airline 412 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: and going to London from New York and buying the 413 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: mini skirt and walking down the streets of New York 414 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: and the mini skirt and inventing hotpants, and this exuberance 415 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: and this person who love to dance, then apparently we 416 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: still love to dance. I feel that energy alive in 417 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: you as I talk to you now, and that is 418 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: very very exciting. 419 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 3: Well, the spirit, yeah, the spirit is really your age, right, 420 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 3: and your spirit is strong and alive, and they are 421 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 3: twenty five year olds who have a very diminished spirit. 422 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 3: So I think it really is about the spirit and 423 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 3: purpose and waking up every morning and approaching the next 424 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 3: day with joy and another chance to get it right 425 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 3: and to do it right. I mean, that's such a 426 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,479 Speaker 3: privilege a lifetime. We have to really respect it and 427 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 3: do the best we can. 428 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: And I think it is the artist's job ultimately. You know, 429 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: everyone is not able to be the arbiters of that energy, 430 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: and it is the job of the artist. And so 431 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: it's it's the artist spirit that you and habit that 432 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: is that I very much connect to. So I like 433 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: to end every podcast with the question what else is true? 434 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: It comes from my therapy, my trauma resilience therapy, and 435 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: it's the idea of both, and that the world could 436 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: be on fire and there could be these very challenging 437 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: things in our lives. And yes, that is true. But 438 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: there's also something else that is true that can lift 439 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: us up, that can give us a sense of hope, 440 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: a sense of possibility, that multiple things can exist at 441 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: the same time. So, for you today, normal Komali, what 442 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: else is true? 443 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 3: I believe that multiple things can happen at the same time. 444 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 5: I am. 445 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 3: Wanting to live to one hundred and twenty. I heard 446 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 3: I read that is true, and so I am. Every 447 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 3: day I do my best to think about how to 448 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 3: make that happen, because I really don't want to miss 449 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 3: out on all the things that are about to come. 450 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 3: I'm very excited about them. So I know I sound 451 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 3: crazy thinking of one hundred and twenty, but if I 452 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 3: even miss one hundred and twenty and drop a little down, 453 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 3: it's much longer than seventy nine, right, So that's my dream. 454 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 5: That's what else is true? 455 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: Well, what is so exciting? After fifty years am in 456 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: the fashion business, owning your business, still innovating and having 457 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: pieces that continue to be relevant after all this time, 458 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: from the humble beginnings that you came from. Anything, it's possible. 459 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 3: You have to think about what are those things you 460 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 3: want and say them, proclaim them to try to make 461 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 3: them happen. I mean, I say one hundred and twenty 462 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 3: because I want to make longevity happen. And if I 463 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 3: create that energy for me to do that, and I 464 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 3: think everybody can say things that sound how's that going 465 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 3: to happen? We'll say it and think about it and 466 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 3: talk about it because you then become it and it becomes. 467 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: You and there may be partners that you find who 468 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: can help you. 469 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 5: That's true. 470 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: Any last thoughts on Andre Leon Talley before we go. 471 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad he brought us together. I'm happy for that. 472 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 3: I've always just loved you and loved everything about you, 473 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 3: and then I'm thrilled when I see you in my clothes. 474 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 5: I'm like, oh my god, girl, that's great. 475 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 3: I love your energy and I'm so glad you did 476 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 3: this trip to Andre because he was an extraordinary human 477 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 3: being and. 478 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 5: I miss him. 479 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 3: I must tell you I think of him and I 480 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 3: miss him. And the industry doesn't have a replacement for 481 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 3: somebody like that. 482 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: No, no, there's only one. Yeah, there's only one. Thank 483 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: you so much, Thank you an honor. It's time for 484 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: a short break. But when we come back, Former fashion 485 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: reporter Robin Gavon continues our tribute to the late great 486 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: Andre Leon Tally. Welcome back. My next guest knew well 487 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: Andre Leon Tally's work, his reach, and his impact on 488 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: the fashion industry. Robin Gavon is the Washington Post Senior 489 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: Critic at Large. Earlier in her career with the Post, 490 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: she covered every angle of the fashion industry. In two 491 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: thousand and six, she won the Pulitzer Prize for Just 492 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: English Criticism. It was the first time the award was 493 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: given to a fashion writer. She's the author of the 494 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: Battle of Versailles, The Night American fashion stumbled into the 495 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: spotlight and made history. Gavon, who's also worked at Newsweek, 496 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: The Daily Beast, Vogue Magazine, and the Detroit Free Press, 497 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: please enjoy my conversation with Robin Givon. Hello Robin, and 498 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling. 499 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 6: Today, I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. 500 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: I am so excited to have this conversation about the 501 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: late great Andre Leon Tally. I have so much love 502 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: and admiration for him, and I just want to celebrate him. 503 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: Can you tell us when you first encountered Andrea's work 504 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: or Andre himself. When was your first experience of Andre 505 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: Leon Tally? 506 00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 6: That is such a difficult question because I mean when 507 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 6: I started writing about fashion, I was at the Detroit 508 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 6: Free Press, which is one of those wonderful regional newspapers, 509 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 6: and I was, you know, seated in the rafters at 510 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 6: fashion shows, and Andre was down front, this just sort 511 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 6: of iconic figure that I recognized. 512 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: What year with this it been? 513 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 6: Roughly, this would have been like the mid nineties, okay, 514 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 6: and you know it was a period when he was 515 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 6: at Vogue and he was in his glory, so he 516 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 6: was just this distant figure who was, you know, in 517 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 6: the center of the fashion circus, and certainly he was 518 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 6: the lone black figure at the center of the circus. 519 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: Absolutely. That's interesting because I don't remember the first time 520 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: I encountered Andre either, but it was on television for me. 521 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: It was probably like video fashion or some sort of 522 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: fashion television moment when he was talking about fashion, and 523 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: he was so grand and larger than life, and he 524 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: would say something. It was like a pronouncement from royalty. 525 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it shall be right. It's like 526 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: it feels like he would say something, you know, like this, 527 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: like the Gospel according to Andrea, and it became gospel, 528 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: it became law, and it was right. Ian. I remember 529 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: there was a story he tells about he was in 530 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: Paris and he had to cover a party for Women's 531 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: War Daily, and he was with Carl Lagerfeld and he 532 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: didn't have time to go and change and mister Lagerfeld 533 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: gave him something and it was something quite extravagant and 534 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: something sort of over the top. And he went and 535 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: people were looking him like he was sort of crazy. 536 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 1: It was like they literally know that Carl Lagerfeld gave 537 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: it to me, so it was right, you know. So 538 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: it was this it's like right and wrong. It's almost 539 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: sort of this strange black and white kind of the 540 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: way he talked about fashion, and that just captivated me. 541 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, for me, I wasn't a fashion person. 542 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 6: You know, I came into the industry as a journalist, 543 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 6: and so I didn't really have this deep background of 544 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 6: fashion history. I could really not tell you about models 545 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 6: or anything like that. From the sixties or the seventies. 546 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 6: I was not a kid who was reading fashion magazines, 547 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 6: and for me, I was so just really impressed by 548 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 6: his vast knowledge. And the other thing that impressed me 549 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 6: was the fact that he had worked for Women' who 550 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 6: Were Daily, which you know, it's a trade publication, but 551 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 6: it's not particularly super glamorous. I mean, when I thought 552 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 6: of Women's Wear Daily, I was like, oh, Okay, this 553 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 6: is someone who was really out there reporting and having 554 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 6: to hit deadline. And that was for me a huge connection. 555 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 6: I thought, Okay, I relate to you on that level. 556 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,760 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from you when you met Andrea 557 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: and how you maybe got to know him and got 558 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: to know a bit more about his life. 559 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 6: You know, at this point, I was at the Washington 560 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 6: Post and I briefly left the Washington Post to go 561 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 6: and work for Vogue, And the very first person to 562 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 6: call and welcome me was Andre, which was huge, you know, 563 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 6: which just really meant a lot. And you know, it's 564 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 6: not like he was in office all the time. You know, 565 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 6: Andre was off doing fabulous Andre things, but he was 566 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 6: really gracious about that. And I only stayed at Vogue 567 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 6: for it was less than a year. It was very collegial, 568 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 6: but it wasn't rooted in or it didn't come across 569 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 6: as rooted in the fact that I was a black 570 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 6: woman coming to work at Vogue. I mean, I certainly 571 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 6: interpreted it that way, but it wasn't stated. 572 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, what year was this roughly? Do you remember what? 573 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, this was two thousand. This was in two thousand, 574 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 6: and you know I went back to the post shortly 575 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 6: after that, and then you know, his autobiography was published 576 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 6: ault sorry, the first autobiography, I should say. And I 577 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 6: remember he called and he told me that it was 578 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 6: coming out, and I got this galley of it and 579 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 6: I was like, oh, Andre, I really want to talk 580 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 6: to you about you know, this autobiography. It's incredible. I 581 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 6: was fascinated by the relationship that he had with his grandmother, 582 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 6: who really raised him, and he was so inspired by 583 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 6: her work, ethic, her sense of dignity, her grace and 584 00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 6: her style, the precision with which she dressed on Sunday 585 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 6: for church, the way that she took care of his clothing, 586 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 6: the way that she ironed their linens. I mean, all 587 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 6: of these really small things that did not require a 588 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 6: lot of money but indicated how much pride she had 589 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 6: in her appearance and the way that she wanted the 590 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 6: world to understand her. And that was so moving to me, 591 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,280 Speaker 6: And so I interviewed him and I wrote this huge 592 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 6: story about it. So that was when I felt like 593 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 6: I got such a better understanding of who he was, 594 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,879 Speaker 6: where he had come from, how far he come. 595 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: It reminds interesting because I think about my grandmother, who 596 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 1: was also a domestic worker and was fastidious about neatness 597 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: as well. She always had her makeup on. I remember 598 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: sitting at her vanity when I was young, and everything 599 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: just smelled good, and everything was just so, and she 600 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: was just I wonder, you know, I think about the 601 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 1: way my mother talks about it too. I think I 602 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: wonder if there's something about working in white people's homes, 603 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: and his grandmother worked in cleaned the dorms at Duke, 604 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:18,320 Speaker 1: and I wonder if there's something about like the way 605 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 1: it internalized racism, of like how in the white imagination 606 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 1: we're not so clean and so so I wonder if 607 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: there's an overcompensation or something going on there. 608 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,840 Speaker 6: I mean, I always thought about it in the sense 609 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 6: that particularly for black women of that era, you know, 610 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 6: they were not seen as ladies, and even people who 611 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 6: were children, white children called them by their first name. 612 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 6: You know, they weren't given the honorific of missus or 613 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 6: miss and I think the degree to which they paid 614 00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 6: such attention to how they looked was a way sort 615 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 6: of taking control of that and a way of making 616 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 6: it clear that they considered themselves to be ladies, that 617 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 6: they considered themselves to be worthy of that kind of 618 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 6: respect that an honorific implies. And you know, and on 619 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 6: another level, I think it was also just an element 620 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 6: of enjoyment, you know, I mean just the pure fun 621 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 6: and creativity and style of fashion and being able to 622 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 6: express yourself in a way when self expression was so 623 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 6: limited by outside factors. 624 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. There's an interview with Andrea and Charlie Rose when 625 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: Alt came out, and it was fascinating to me because 626 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 1: he race was mentioned, and Andre completely downplayed it. He 627 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 1: completely said, you know, it's never been about race, just 628 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: about being my work. And you know, I'm prepared and 629 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 1: you know, I did my homework. And it was just 630 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 1: very that in this This was in two thousand and 631 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: then much later on in the Gospel caring to Andrea 632 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: and in the second memoir, he talked a bit more 633 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: about race, but like in that moment, and I don't 634 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: know if he could, you know, I think the Queen 635 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: Kong moment coming out in the documentary for the first 636 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: time and that he had never uttered, you know, in 637 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: forty years. So I feel like there was an evolution 638 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: for him around thinking about race, or a feeling he 639 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: had permission to actually talk about the place he held 640 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: in fashion as the only black man you know for 641 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:33,320 Speaker 1: a while. 642 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 6: Yeah, for sure. I think it was incredibly difficult to 643 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 6: be Andre Yeah, in the eighties and the nineties, and 644 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 6: you know that comes through in chaffon trenches, you know. 645 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 6: I think when I first met him, I do think 646 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 6: there was a period in which he tried very hard 647 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 6: to downplay race. And I think some of that is because, 648 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 6: you know, it was a way to make dealing with 649 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 6: his day to day professional existence easier. And I think 650 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,319 Speaker 6: there was also an element of pride, you know. I mean, 651 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,800 Speaker 6: this is someone who had a master's in French history 652 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 6: from Brown. I mean, he knew more about in many 653 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 6: cases the history of French fashion than the very people 654 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 6: who you know, sort of looked down on him a 655 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 6: bit or used an epithet like Queen Kong, and so 656 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 6: I think it took I think it took some growing 657 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 6: into his place in history. I think it took some 658 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 6: gaining of confidence that he could be welcoming and he 659 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 6: could be supportive of other black people. And that's not 660 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 6: at all, you know, to suggest that he didn't do 661 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 6: what he could to open doors wider. But I do 662 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 6: think that you know, when you're all alone and you've 663 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,400 Speaker 6: just gotten in the room, yeah, you're just trying to 664 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,279 Speaker 6: get your bearings, You're just trying to make sure that 665 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 6: you don't get shoved out of the room. And I 666 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 6: think it took a while for him to move into 667 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,479 Speaker 6: a place where he could be sort of the icon 668 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 6: that a generation of creatives wanted him to be. 669 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: Mm Oh, it's so deep to me because when I 670 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: you know, I think about the moment in Gospel according 671 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,279 Speaker 1: Andre when he tells the Queen Consler and he's in 672 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: tears and he's like, this is the first time I've 673 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,720 Speaker 1: mentioned this in forty years, and I just think about 674 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: how what it means to hold it makes me want 675 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: to cry, to hold on to that. You're in Paris, 676 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 1: you speak fluent French, you know you were mentored by 677 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: Deanna Veelan. You're friends with Carl Lagrafeld. You because of 678 00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: your knowledge, because of how exceptional you are, and that 679 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: is all sort of diminished in this racial flur. It's 680 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: so demeaning to walk around with that and to carry that, 681 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: for sure. 682 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 6: And I think, you know, in a moment like that, 683 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,920 Speaker 6: who do you turn to to commiserate with? Who do 684 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 6: you turn to who can understand? And there really isn't anyone. 685 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 6: I mean, I think about There's an incredible Hilton All's 686 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:35,280 Speaker 6: profile of Andre that ran in the New Yorker. Gosh, 687 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 6: it was probably in the late nineties, and it was 688 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 6: such an incredible profile because it really just sort of 689 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 6: it follows him when he's in New York and a 690 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,920 Speaker 6: bit when he's in Paris. And there is this scene 691 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 6: at the very end of the profile where Andrea has 692 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 6: hosted a luncheon for you know, mostly French fashion insiders 693 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 6: at floor and afterwards they're gathering together to take a 694 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 6: photograph to sort of commemorate the occasion, and the photographer 695 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:14,359 Speaker 6: is organizing people and one of the women who is 696 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:19,120 Speaker 6: there at the luncheon, a French woman white, calls Andre 697 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 6: the n word and says that she's not going to 698 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,240 Speaker 6: stand next to Andre if he's going to be an 699 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 6: end word dandy. And there is this moment when you're 700 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,280 Speaker 6: reading this profile where you just like gassed. 701 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 1: And this is something that Andre would probably never tell, 702 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: but because Hilton was there, Hilton, Hilton. 703 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,839 Speaker 6: Tells the story. He observes this moment, and he describes 704 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 6: it as you could see sort of Andrea's love and 705 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 6: affection and vision of fashion just kind of shatter around him, 706 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 6: and he flinches and in an instant he laughs along 707 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 6: with everyone else and suggests that they all, you know, 708 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 6: go out and see something fabulous. And this story I 709 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,839 Speaker 6: read ages ago, and it just really it stayed with 710 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:21,480 Speaker 6: me because I thought it spoke to just everything. You know, 711 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:26,279 Speaker 6: that's an incredible burden. I mean, it's a joy to 712 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 6: be able to be in that space and host a 713 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,719 Speaker 6: luncheon at Cafe to floor and then you just never 714 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 6: know when there's going to be this moment. You know. 715 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 6: The funny thing is, after that profile ran, several people 716 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 6: who knew Andre had said that he was really concerned 717 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 6: about it and worried about it and was fretting. 718 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,799 Speaker 1: And did Hilton mention the name of the woman who 719 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:51,399 Speaker 1: had said it. 720 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:52,360 Speaker 6: Oh he did. 721 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 1: Ok So that's what they can sell. 722 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,959 Speaker 6: Okay, yeah yeaeah oh the group is named. But yeah, 723 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 6: Andre was sort of reassured by a friend that it 724 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,360 Speaker 6: was that it was true, it was accurate, it was fine, 725 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 6: and I think, you know, you let it be, you 726 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 6: let it speak for itself. 727 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 1: Wow. Oh. In some ways it's unimaginable. I can't actually 728 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: imagine someone saying that to my face. It's it's so shocking. 729 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,839 Speaker 6: And what you know, and what do you do in 730 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 6: that moment? I mean, I think, you know, what people 731 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 6: might do now is perhaps quite different from what they 732 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,279 Speaker 6: might have done, Yes, you know in that timeframe. Yes, 733 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 6: But there's part of me that also thinks, well, the 734 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:44,319 Speaker 6: reason that we now have the ability to respond in 735 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:48,759 Speaker 6: a different way today is in fact because of the 736 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,400 Speaker 6: way that our elders responded back then. 737 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 1: And you had to stay, you had to stay in 738 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: the room, you had to like not have been there's 739 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,719 Speaker 1: so much dignity and the way he got on with it. 740 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 1: There was something about that generation of black people, the 741 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,920 Speaker 1: way they got on with it, the way they insisted 742 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: on dignity, on their dignity, the way they insisted on 743 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: being exceptional in the face of all that is just 744 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,200 Speaker 1: I am endlessly inspired by that. That is why I 745 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,440 Speaker 1: wanted to have an episode where we talk about andre 746 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 1: because he is so exceptional. And you know, after he 747 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,759 Speaker 1: got the letter of introduction to Deanna Rieland and went 748 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: an intern for her in nineteen seventy four, and she 749 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 1: saw this in him. What are your thoughts on that 750 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:34,720 Speaker 1: period of his life. 751 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,680 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean one of the things that is so 752 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:44,799 Speaker 6: striking is that she just she zeroed in on Andrea's intelligence, 753 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 6: his breath of knowledge about fashion, and I think, you know, 754 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:55,799 Speaker 6: sometimes that gets lost in the fabulousness. Yes, and you know, 755 00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:01,000 Speaker 6: people sort of see the Andreas surrounded by the mountains 756 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:05,720 Speaker 6: of Briton luggage and the Andrea swaning into a room 757 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,400 Speaker 6: in a Valentino caftan. 758 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,360 Speaker 1: Which we love, which we love. 759 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:15,240 Speaker 6: And which is part of the many elements of Andre. 760 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 6: But another equally important element is how incredibly educated he 761 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,719 Speaker 6: was about French history, about fashion history, and so when 762 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:31,160 Speaker 6: he was making these pronouncements, they weren't just these sort 763 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,279 Speaker 6: of flippant, you know, off the cough kinds of things. 764 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,960 Speaker 6: They were really rooted in an understanding. 765 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,240 Speaker 1: And he had been reading Vogue magazine and knew Deanna 766 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: Veland and knew her work, and knew John Fairchild and 767 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: knew the world that he was entering as well. Because 768 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,759 Speaker 1: of he was just so voracious in seeking knowledge and 769 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,440 Speaker 1: wanting to get into this space and understand it. And 770 00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,840 Speaker 1: when you hear him talk about Missus Velan, it's like 771 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,200 Speaker 1: it's almost like he adapts at her persona. I wonder 772 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,560 Speaker 1: what Andre was like pre working with Missus Freeland and posed. 773 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:07,759 Speaker 1: I mean, I think he's probably always himself, but. 774 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,840 Speaker 6: Well, he said that, you know, aside from his grandmother 775 00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:11,399 Speaker 6: that she. 776 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,160 Speaker 1: Was, she was the most influential. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely yeah. 777 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 6: I would love listening to him in later years offer 778 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:25,719 Speaker 6: advice to young fashion students. And you know, he gets 779 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,399 Speaker 6: that question that is always asked, which is what would 780 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,359 Speaker 6: you tell someone who wants to be you? And he 781 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:38,720 Speaker 6: would always say, don't think that any job is too 782 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,520 Speaker 6: small for you to do when you're starting out. And 783 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:49,040 Speaker 6: she also would hone in on mind your manners, be polite, 784 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:56,120 Speaker 6: send the handwritten note. Always just remember that manners count. 785 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,879 Speaker 6: And I think that was just, you know, purely from 786 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 6: that southern upbringing, definitely from his grandmother, but also I 787 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 6: suspect from Diana Rieland, who had that same kind of 788 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:09,399 Speaker 6: formality about her. 789 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,720 Speaker 1: Absolutely, that is one of the many things that Missus 790 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:17,200 Speaker 1: Reeland imparted on Andrea. And obviously she wrote a letter 791 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: of introduction to many people, including Andy Warhol. And he 792 00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,680 Speaker 1: ends up an interview magazine and that iconic interview which 793 00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:27,120 Speaker 1: I could not find that he have you read the 794 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,480 Speaker 1: interview that he did with mister Lagerfeld that changed his 795 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,040 Speaker 1: life when he met in Lagerfeld at the Plaza hotel, and. 796 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 6: He ends up with like five hundred locks like silk 797 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:38,520 Speaker 6: shirts or something from. 798 00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,160 Speaker 1: Crape machine, crepe dasim shirts that he wore. You know, 799 00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,040 Speaker 1: he had a whole new left with an entirely new 800 00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,440 Speaker 1: wardrobe exactly. Mister Lagerfeld was obsessed with history in a 801 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: similar way that Andre was teekually French history and then 802 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,359 Speaker 1: very much influenced the work. There was just this this 803 00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 1: connection that is really startling, and it's even more startling 804 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,799 Speaker 1: to think about the falling out that happens forty years later. 805 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:06,279 Speaker 1: But he lived in this world that he It was 806 00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:08,959 Speaker 1: a different world. It was a different world of crape 807 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,319 Speaker 1: dishine shirts and you know, vacationing at Lagerfell's house and 808 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,480 Speaker 1: having a different outfit on for lunch and dinner, and 809 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,240 Speaker 1: vacationing at Valentino's house, and so there was this whole 810 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,319 Speaker 1: world that was there was always name dropping, there was 811 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,919 Speaker 1: always the who's who, who's there? You know, there's he's 812 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: always telling you who the important people are and anyone 813 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,279 Speaker 1: who's anyone? And so there is that which I love 814 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,720 Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with. But I can't ever allow myself 815 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:39,000 Speaker 1: to get carried away in that because it doesn't ever 816 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,160 Speaker 1: feel real to me. 817 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,919 Speaker 6: Now I agree. I mean, I think that what we 818 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:48,239 Speaker 6: sort of see in later years is kind of the 819 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,680 Speaker 6: cracking of the snow globe a little bit. And I 820 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:57,760 Speaker 6: think the magical thing about fashion is that it is 821 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:03,160 Speaker 6: a fully constructed world. Yeah, and it can feel so 822 00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:08,560 Speaker 6: true when you're in the middle of it, but the 823 00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,680 Speaker 6: reality is that it's this sort of glorious fantasy that 824 00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:17,240 Speaker 6: is constructed by a pretty gritty business. 825 00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:22,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, after a tiny little break, we've got so much 826 00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:33,960 Speaker 1: more for you. We're back. What oh god, you know, 827 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:35,600 Speaker 1: to go in and we were kind of there, but 828 00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:37,839 Speaker 1: to go into the sort of the Anna wind tour, 829 00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:42,000 Speaker 1: and that the falling out up with lager Fell, and 830 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,160 Speaker 1: Andre said, you know, when you're no longer on the 831 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,480 Speaker 1: front road, then you know he's no longer interested. That's 832 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,560 Speaker 1: I believe that's basically what he said, that like, oh, 833 00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,080 Speaker 1: you're no longer at Vogue and you can no longer 834 00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,880 Speaker 1: serve me. And so I don't know if there was 835 00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,400 Speaker 1: more to it. You know, who knows, and relationships are complicated, 836 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,240 Speaker 1: and it was it seemed fraught with Anna. He would 837 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,239 Speaker 1: sort of, you know, be critical of her in one 838 00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,680 Speaker 1: breath and then like praise her in another. 839 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:10,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think they had a very long 840 00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,680 Speaker 6: and complicated relationship, but you. 841 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,560 Speaker 1: Know, pass like siblings or something to some degree. 842 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:23,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think so. And certainly, you know, when there 843 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,359 Speaker 6: was the memorial for him in New York, I mean, 844 00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:30,760 Speaker 6: she was there and she spoke, and I think the 845 00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,040 Speaker 6: emotion that she felt was very real and very honest. 846 00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,960 Speaker 6: So you know, I would say to people not to 847 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:45,680 Speaker 6: judge that relationship because I think that they both benefited 848 00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,200 Speaker 6: from it. And yeah, there was a falling out, but 849 00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,879 Speaker 6: I think that the roots of it were never ripped out. 850 00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,759 Speaker 1: I think the business just changed. I think that what 851 00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,520 Speaker 1: it felt to me like the reading its book, reading 852 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:02,040 Speaker 1: Chapon Trenches, and just think about and having met Grace 853 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,319 Speaker 1: Connington and getting a sense of like her, you know 854 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 1: when she left Vogue, that the business had just changed 855 00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,600 Speaker 1: so much, that there was just so much less money. 856 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,520 Speaker 1: These were icons, you know, greats and Andrea who had 857 00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,480 Speaker 1: higher salaries, maybe not as high as some people according 858 00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,200 Speaker 1: to Andrea, and it just wasn't financially feasible to keep 859 00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,800 Speaker 1: them on anymore. It just it could just be that simple. 860 00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 1: And unfortunately there was no retirement account. There was no feverence, 861 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,719 Speaker 1: it seems, and you're just sort of out when you're 862 00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 1: a living legend in an icon, and there's something devastating 863 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,279 Speaker 1: about that. But I think it was the knowledge. I 864 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:45,600 Speaker 1: think it was when it feels like with laggerfelding with 865 00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,880 Speaker 1: Son Laurent, that just someone who could write about my 866 00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,760 Speaker 1: work in a way that is deeply compelling, deeply compelling. 867 00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,479 Speaker 1: I think about the moment when he talks about going 868 00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,000 Speaker 1: to Paris for the first time and getting to previews, 869 00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,920 Speaker 1: you know, getting to previews Si Laurn's show inspired by 870 00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:05,840 Speaker 1: Poor Yian Bess and asking him, you know, how do 871 00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:08,080 Speaker 1: you you know you've never been to the South, how 872 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,040 Speaker 1: do you know about you know, these clothes remind me 873 00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,040 Speaker 1: of what my grandmother would have worn to church in 874 00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,680 Speaker 1: the South. And you've never been to you know, South Carolina. 875 00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,160 Speaker 1: And he said, listen to the music, mister. I listened 876 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,400 Speaker 1: to the music in the car on the way to 877 00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:26,800 Speaker 1: the office, and I designed the clothes. There's a wonderful 878 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,800 Speaker 1: moment in Andrea's talk at Oxford when he reads a 879 00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,120 Speaker 1: letter from Missus Reeland that he has framed, had framed 880 00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,600 Speaker 1: in his house. Was after his first season in Paris, 881 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:36,719 Speaker 1: writing fulmens where daily. She said, you wrote about the 882 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:38,560 Speaker 1: clothes in one of the best ways that I've ever 883 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,720 Speaker 1: seen in fashion. She just wrote this like just amazing 884 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,680 Speaker 1: letter that you wrote about the clothes in such an 885 00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,920 Speaker 1: incredible way. I've never seen someone write about clothes this way, 886 00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,640 Speaker 1: as if you were wearing them. And Eve agrees, and 887 00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:51,399 Speaker 1: she has spoken to Eve Si Laurwan and he agreed. 888 00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,800 Speaker 1: And it was of course about the Broadway collection. Inspired 889 00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,239 Speaker 1: by poor Yan Bess. I was able to find the 890 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,640 Speaker 1: article he wrote and when where Bailey. I went to 891 00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:03,840 Speaker 1: the library and was a nerd and founded just to 892 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:07,280 Speaker 1: get a sense of what she was responding to. Andrea 893 00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:11,600 Speaker 1: started off his article in the January twenty sixth, nineteen 894 00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:16,080 Speaker 1: seventy eight issue of Women'swear Daily. The article is titled 895 00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:21,000 Speaker 1: Whyisel at his most influential Porgy and Bess, sung by 896 00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:26,000 Speaker 1: Lena Horne, Leontine Price, and Pearl Bailey Nina Simone shouting 897 00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:32,240 Speaker 1: out Mississippi Goddamn and Eve Saint Laurent's front row ladies singing, clapping, 898 00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,400 Speaker 1: and stomping their boot clad feet as if they were 899 00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,800 Speaker 1: at a baseball game at Yankee Stadium. WHYI Cell's strutted 900 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:45,440 Speaker 1: out Broadway, city Lights, Bourbon Street and big time jazz 901 00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,360 Speaker 1: in a couture collection that is certain to be one 902 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:53,160 Speaker 1: of the most influential he has ever done. All that showmanship, 903 00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,200 Speaker 1: and to boot he still does the best clothes in 904 00:57:56,240 --> 00:58:00,880 Speaker 1: the whole damn world, said Nan Kipner. The great shame 905 00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,720 Speaker 1: is that it is only seen once. It should be 906 00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,560 Speaker 1: on television for the whole world to see. And then 907 00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:11,200 Speaker 1: he continues imagination with zest, vitality and energy marked the 908 00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,040 Speaker 1: show from start to finish. And there's more, but that's 909 00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:16,560 Speaker 1: how he sort of started out. The article that Ms 910 00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:20,840 Speaker 1: free Land refused so beautifully about his. 911 00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:26,800 Speaker 6: You know, his writing sounded so much like Andre, and 912 00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:28,680 Speaker 6: I mean, I think that's like the power of really 913 00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,120 Speaker 6: terrific writing, where you can sort of hear the person 914 00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:35,880 Speaker 6: telling you the story, and you know, I remember, I'm 915 00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:38,680 Speaker 6: not sure it was this one, but there was one 916 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:46,520 Speaker 6: collection that it was directly related to black women, and 917 00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:50,800 Speaker 6: I remember it was one of those rare moments when 918 00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,800 Speaker 6: he was, you know, just engaging in a conversation about 919 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:59,600 Speaker 6: race and its presence in fashion in a way that was, 920 00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,880 Speaker 6: you know, unusual for him. But you know, I do 921 00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:07,960 Speaker 6: think that it was later in his life when he 922 00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 6: was so much more vocal about diversity and inclusivity in 923 00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 6: the industry. I remember there was a young woman that 924 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,320 Speaker 6: he was sort of introducing around as sort of the 925 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,520 Speaker 6: next it girl, you know, who was a young black woman, 926 00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:28,440 Speaker 6: and you know, the mere fact that Andrea was introducing 927 00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,840 Speaker 6: her gave her sort of social clout. And you know, 928 00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,480 Speaker 6: he was he would do things, I think, in a 929 00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:40,120 Speaker 6: way that was that felt organic to him without it 930 00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:44,800 Speaker 6: being incredibly obvious. But he was always sort of there. 931 00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,440 Speaker 6: And in two thousand and six, here I'll toot my 932 00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:51,640 Speaker 6: own horn to toot, you know, I won the Pulitzer 933 00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:57,320 Speaker 6: for my fashion coverage. Yes, and Andre thank you. And 934 00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:02,440 Speaker 6: Andre was so incredible because a group of friends organized 935 01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:07,800 Speaker 6: a dinner to celebrate and Andre came and he was 936 01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,000 Speaker 6: there with him, he brought this friend of his who 937 01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,240 Speaker 6: I had no one had any idea who this person 938 01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:17,960 Speaker 6: was who was taking pictures. Wasn't a famous photographer or anything. 939 01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:19,360 Speaker 6: It was just, you know, sort of like a young 940 01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,960 Speaker 6: guy that was taking pictures. And then afterwards, probably a 941 01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,920 Speaker 6: couple weeks later, I get this package in the mail 942 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:31,880 Speaker 6: and Andre has created these photo albums of the evening, 943 01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,240 Speaker 6: you know, the kind with like the photo corners and 944 01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:40,400 Speaker 6: the handwritten captions and all of that to memorialize this evening. 945 01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,360 Speaker 6: And he sent it one to everyone who was there, 946 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,720 Speaker 6: and he sent an extra one to me for my parents, 947 01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:53,240 Speaker 6: and I just again, I just thought it's sort of 948 01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:59,400 Speaker 6: quietly enthusiastic, and yet it also had this element of 949 01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:06,120 Speaker 6: sort of formality and emphasis on family, and it just 950 01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:08,040 Speaker 6: felt like something. 951 01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:09,360 Speaker 1: But it's so insanely thoughtful. 952 01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:11,000 Speaker 6: I don't know, you know, again, I go back to 953 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,720 Speaker 6: his grandmother, something that his grandmother would have been so 954 01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:15,960 Speaker 6: proud of him for doing, and it was just, yeah, 955 01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:21,000 Speaker 6: it was incredibly touching and kind, and it was just 956 01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:22,680 Speaker 6: sort of going above and beyond. 957 01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was. I mean I had the pleasure of 958 01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:29,720 Speaker 1: meeting him. We were doing Watch What Happens Live, famous 959 01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:33,680 Speaker 1: sort of controversial episode in some ways, and that's when 960 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,400 Speaker 1: I first met him as in twenty fifteen, and I 961 01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:39,600 Speaker 1: was just sort of excited and in awe and we 962 01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,400 Speaker 1: exchanged information afterwards, and we started emailing each other, and 963 01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,120 Speaker 1: we've tried to, you know, sort of get together for 964 01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,200 Speaker 1: lunch or dinner or something. It never happened. And I 965 01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:49,280 Speaker 1: think I ran into him once more. But I remember 966 01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:52,040 Speaker 1: Rihanna asked me got my life down so weird sometimes 967 01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:53,880 Speaker 1: where Rihanna asked me to walk in her Savage x 968 01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,600 Speaker 1: Finty show in twenty nineteen. And I do the show 969 01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:02,120 Speaker 1: and I'm backstage changing afterwards, and when when someone comes 970 01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,280 Speaker 1: and says, Andre Leon Tally is here and he would 971 01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:06,760 Speaker 1: like to speak with you, and I I stop everything 972 01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,840 Speaker 1: I'm doing and I go and speak to Andrea and 973 01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:12,160 Speaker 1: he's like, oh, it's such an extraordinary showing. You were 974 01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,000 Speaker 1: so wonderful. I believe in twenty years we're going to 975 01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,360 Speaker 1: say this is the moment when everything changed, you know, 976 01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:20,000 Speaker 1: one of those Andre pronouncements, and it was wonderful and 977 01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:22,640 Speaker 1: I was like, it's so exciting. And then I was like, 978 01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:24,000 Speaker 1: what are you know, what are you working on? He 979 01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,200 Speaker 1: was like, I'm finishing my book, The Chaffon Trenches and 980 01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:32,920 Speaker 1: it's coming out next year, and he was just I 981 01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,080 Speaker 1: just love I just love him. And as I was 982 01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:38,480 Speaker 1: researching for this, he mentioned the show and me, and 983 01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:40,640 Speaker 1: he's mentioned me a few times. You know, he was 984 01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:43,400 Speaker 1: just he was so thoughtful and so just an amazing 985 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:43,959 Speaker 1: human being. 986 01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:48,080 Speaker 6: You know, that's such a wonderful story and I think 987 01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:53,600 Speaker 6: it encapsulates so much about andre One. He could just 988 01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:58,480 Speaker 6: be so hyperbolic about things, and you like, there's part 989 01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,640 Speaker 6: of you that's thinking, oh my god, he's exaggerating, but 990 01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,240 Speaker 6: then nine times out of ten he was absolutely spot on. 991 01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:12,440 Speaker 6: Because that fancy show did change so much. And you know, 992 01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:17,160 Speaker 6: and the other thing about it is that, uh, you know, 993 01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:23,560 Speaker 6: he he had this ability that when he really believed 994 01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:29,800 Speaker 6: in something, his enthusiasm for that person or that idea 995 01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:35,040 Speaker 6: was boundless. You know, he just he completely threw his 996 01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:39,520 Speaker 6: like everything that he had at it. And some people 997 01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,600 Speaker 6: might say, oh, I wish that he had been more 998 01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:48,920 Speaker 6: embracing of a wider number of black designers. Or you know, 999 01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:53,040 Speaker 6: black creatives or what have you. But there's something to 1000 01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:58,520 Speaker 6: be said for just funneling all of that enthusiasm in 1001 01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:02,800 Speaker 6: a more focused way, because he could just propel people 1002 01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,520 Speaker 6: on that avalanche of positivity. 1003 01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:10,480 Speaker 1: I think the most compelling moment for me around that 1004 01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:14,560 Speaker 1: is Galliano. What he almost single handedly did for John 1005 01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:15,520 Speaker 1: Galliano's career. 1006 01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:19,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean other designers speak about him with that 1007 01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:23,840 Speaker 6: same sense, of the same recognition of his loyalty. I 1008 01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:27,960 Speaker 6: mean Mark Jacobs is another is another designer who talks 1009 01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:31,320 Speaker 6: about how important Andrea was to him and his career. 1010 01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:37,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, these are real, true artists of fashion. And 1011 01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:39,880 Speaker 1: one of the things I love about fashion so much 1012 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,960 Speaker 1: is when art meets fashion, when the sort of collision happens. 1013 01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,760 Speaker 1: And I think it's really interesting that Andrea started his 1014 01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:50,040 Speaker 1: career interning from Missus Rieland, working at the med with exhibits, 1015 01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:52,040 Speaker 1: and toward the end of his life he was doing 1016 01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,680 Speaker 1: his own exhibits at Savannah College of Art and Designing. 1017 01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:58,040 Speaker 1: I think there's something that felt full circle about that. 1018 01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:02,240 Speaker 6: Well. I think it's also important that his estate was 1019 01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:03,880 Speaker 6: sold at Christie's. 1020 01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:06,280 Speaker 1: I saw that you were there. I was bidding on 1021 01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:08,840 Speaker 1: some stuff I was outbid. I was like the bidding, 1022 01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:12,440 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm out. I was out. I started out. 1023 01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:14,080 Speaker 1: I was like, okay, I can do this, and then 1024 01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:17,280 Speaker 1: I was online bidding and I was just like okay, no, okay, 1025 01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:19,080 Speaker 1: I can't. I got it. I got it. Not for 1026 01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:22,480 Speaker 1: the faint of heart, No, you needed to be that girl. 1027 01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:27,640 Speaker 1: And I made good money. But I just I you know, 1028 01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:30,560 Speaker 1: I think some weteil luggae sold for seventy five thousand dollars. 1029 01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:31,800 Speaker 1: I just I was laverne. 1030 01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:35,480 Speaker 6: Okay, can we talk about the luggage for a moment, because. 1031 01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:36,880 Speaker 1: Please, I mean I saw that. I mean I saw. 1032 01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:38,320 Speaker 1: I didn't see it in person. I know you went 1033 01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:39,920 Speaker 1: in person to see the collection. 1034 01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:46,560 Speaker 6: Yes, I went to the preview, which was beautiful, and 1035 01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:52,280 Speaker 6: his choir from Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem performed, certainly 1036 01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:57,440 Speaker 6: a first for Christie's I'm sure, and just seeing everything 1037 01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:00,800 Speaker 6: in person, you know, it was really The photographs just 1038 01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:05,680 Speaker 6: didn't do it justice because the Kaftans were practically ecclesiastical 1039 01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:10,360 Speaker 6: in the way that they looked fabric that was so rich, 1040 01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:14,760 Speaker 6: and of course you know, Andre was six, so everything 1041 01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:17,920 Speaker 6: is very large and very long and very sweeping. 1042 01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:20,600 Speaker 1: I wanted one of those caftans, but I just couldn't. 1043 01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:25,160 Speaker 6: And there were these three pieces of Briton luggage out 1044 01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:28,440 Speaker 6: of a lot, a lot, a lot of luggage. But 1045 01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:31,840 Speaker 6: I was fascinated by these three pieces, which were sold 1046 01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:35,200 Speaker 6: as a lot because they were banged up, but they 1047 01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,840 Speaker 6: had his initials on it. And you know, one of 1048 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,400 Speaker 6: the things that I had written about that luggage was 1049 01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:45,480 Speaker 6: that to me, it just spoke to the fact that 1050 01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:48,480 Speaker 6: here was this person who had grown up in the 1051 01:06:48,520 --> 01:06:55,720 Speaker 6: segregated South, whose movements were constrained, who had been able 1052 01:06:56,120 --> 01:07:00,640 Speaker 6: to move so far from those beginnings, that not only 1053 01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:05,760 Speaker 6: could he travel the world, but he could do it 1054 01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:09,080 Speaker 6: with such style and flare. And to me, that's what 1055 01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:12,600 Speaker 6: the suitcases represented. And they sold I think the hammer 1056 01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:13,880 Speaker 6: price was like seventy five. 1057 01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:15,560 Speaker 1: Thousand dollars, Oh my goodness. 1058 01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:17,000 Speaker 6: And a friend of mine said, do you think the 1059 01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:20,040 Speaker 6: person who bought them will actually use the luggage? And 1060 01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:22,120 Speaker 6: I was like, I don't think I would let baggage 1061 01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:25,720 Speaker 6: handlers touch my seventy five thousand dollar suitcases. 1062 01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,880 Speaker 1: That's the thing checked expensive bags that you check. It 1063 01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,640 Speaker 1: gets so banned up when you check bags. It's just 1064 01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:36,800 Speaker 1: a disaster. When you get it back. I love this 1065 01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:38,640 Speaker 1: story when Andrea goes to piece like when he went 1066 01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:40,520 Speaker 1: to Paris for the first time for Women's Where Daily, 1067 01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:43,800 Speaker 1: He's like, I arrived in Paris with thirteen unmatched pieces 1068 01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:47,320 Speaker 1: of luggage. Today they would be matched. Matched, we tall 1069 01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:50,040 Speaker 1: and certainly thought from his collection. 1070 01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:54,960 Speaker 6: Ever seen that much retall luggage belonging to one person. 1071 01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:58,040 Speaker 1: It feels like a throwback, too, Like does it feel 1072 01:07:58,040 --> 01:07:58,680 Speaker 1: like that to you? 1073 01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:02,760 Speaker 6: I will say about the Wetont luggage, I did not 1074 01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,120 Speaker 6: notice that any of it had wheels. 1075 01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:07,800 Speaker 1: On it, exactly exactly. 1076 01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:09,920 Speaker 6: That was a different era of travel. 1077 01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:12,200 Speaker 1: I noticed that too. There's a great story. When I 1078 01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:15,280 Speaker 1: was at Jesse Norman's memorial at the met, her sister 1079 01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:18,040 Speaker 1: was telling a story because Jesse would travel with lots 1080 01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:19,760 Speaker 1: and lots of I don't believe if we tall or 1081 01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:21,519 Speaker 1: like a lot of luggage, and she would just sort 1082 01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:24,080 Speaker 1: of ribe at the airport and she was with their sistant. 1083 01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:25,639 Speaker 1: She's like, Oh, who's going to handle it? I don't know, 1084 01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,320 Speaker 1: someone will. She just kind of just someone's going to 1085 01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:31,879 Speaker 1: handle them. I don't know who it's going to get handled. 1086 01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:35,840 Speaker 1: I don't know how. It's such a strange. I love 1087 01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:37,559 Speaker 1: these sort of over the top people because I have 1088 01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:39,080 Speaker 1: I guess when I was a kid, I had these 1089 01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:41,439 Speaker 1: fantasies of being that over the top person. But I'm 1090 01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:45,480 Speaker 1: too I don't know, I'm too like practical or realistic. 1091 01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:47,160 Speaker 1: I guess I can play that her in a movie 1092 01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:49,960 Speaker 1: or something, but I don't know. I just love that. 1093 01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:53,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I said, it's that sort of Oscar wild 1094 01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:55,519 Speaker 1: and sort of a little bit Warhol thing of creating yourself. 1095 01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:57,280 Speaker 1: Your life is a work of art, you know, creating 1096 01:08:57,280 --> 01:08:58,280 Speaker 1: yourself is a work of art. 1097 01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:02,280 Speaker 6: I think that's one of the things that so enamored 1098 01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:07,519 Speaker 6: people about Andre that he created himself. You know, he 1099 01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:11,280 Speaker 6: decided who and what he wanted to be, and he 1100 01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:15,960 Speaker 6: made it happen, and you know, for better for worse. 1101 01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:20,760 Speaker 6: You know, there there were challenges, but it's rare I 1102 01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:26,639 Speaker 6: think that you actually see someone who had this idea 1103 01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:30,360 Speaker 6: of how they wanted to move through the world and 1104 01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:33,720 Speaker 6: they were able to achieve it. And it's not you know, 1105 01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:37,639 Speaker 6: about making tons and tons of money. This was really 1106 01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:41,120 Speaker 6: just about this is how I want people to see me. 1107 01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:43,840 Speaker 6: And he made those choices that. 1108 01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:47,720 Speaker 1: His jackets were lined with arimes scarves, for example, So 1109 01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:50,800 Speaker 1: it was. It was. It was very extravagant, but you 1110 01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:53,599 Speaker 1: didn't save any money, like you know, there was there. 1111 01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:56,559 Speaker 1: I saw a report where Diane bun Furstenberg said, you know, 1112 01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:58,240 Speaker 1: she didn't say too much, but she said that she 1113 01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:02,439 Speaker 1: gave Andre some money before he passed away so that 1114 01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:05,400 Speaker 1: he could take care of his house situation. I don't 1115 01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:06,280 Speaker 1: know if you saw that. 1116 01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:09,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I did. I did, and truly, I 1117 01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:14,760 Speaker 6: mean dianvon Christenberg was a friend through second thing. I mean, 1118 01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:18,680 Speaker 6: she was really there for him, and you know there 1119 01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:21,400 Speaker 6: were people who stood by him and helped him. 1120 01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,280 Speaker 1: It was just really beautiful to hear that there was 1121 01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:27,400 Speaker 1: someone who was there and you hear the stories and 1122 01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:29,040 Speaker 1: they went to they would go to see your fifty 1123 01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:31,240 Speaker 1: four together and he would talk about how they would arrivee. 1124 01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:33,559 Speaker 1: I mean they were like back in the day, they 1125 01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:36,840 Speaker 1: were like you know, bikest thieves. You know, then when 1126 01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:38,760 Speaker 1: things are hard, that's when you guess find out who 1127 01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:39,639 Speaker 1: your real friends are. 1128 01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:44,360 Speaker 6: And she was there in Durham for his funeral. So yeah, 1129 01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:47,040 Speaker 6: I mean I think there's I mean, there are a 1130 01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:53,160 Speaker 6: countless lessons and memories to take from Andrea's life. You know, 1131 01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:56,040 Speaker 6: one of the biggest from you know, for me, or 1132 01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:59,559 Speaker 6: I think for anyone who's creative, is I mean, there 1133 01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:04,280 Speaker 6: is that reminder that you not to let yourself get 1134 01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:08,320 Speaker 6: so caught up in the magic that you forget to 1135 01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:12,000 Speaker 6: deal with the business. I mean, thankfully there were people 1136 01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:13,120 Speaker 6: there who were helpful. 1137 01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:25,120 Speaker 1: Okay, it's that time again. We'll be right back. We're back. 1138 01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:29,799 Speaker 1: I think that what is so exciting is the knowledge 1139 01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:33,280 Speaker 1: is I think that is he was an eccentric personality, 1140 01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:38,439 Speaker 1: but I you know, I think about like how what 1141 01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:40,759 Speaker 1: I might have in common. I don't want to compare 1142 01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:43,479 Speaker 1: myself to a really all dellly, but people are often 1143 01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,160 Speaker 1: surprised when they realize I'm kind of smart and I 1144 01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:49,439 Speaker 1: know some things, and you're so smart. And I've heard 1145 01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:51,240 Speaker 1: people say that a lot to me, and so I 1146 01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:54,559 Speaker 1: think that, like there's something about when you're smart. You know, 1147 01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:57,679 Speaker 1: when you have done your homework and you've done research, 1148 01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:02,040 Speaker 1: and that shows and people understand. Missus Winter said that, 1149 01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, she needed Andre because she didn't have the 1150 01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:08,120 Speaker 1: same fashion history and knowledge that he had, so she 1151 01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:10,719 Speaker 1: needed him when she helmed Vogue. 1152 01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:14,360 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think it's surprising that you know 1153 01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:18,519 Speaker 6: he was in many ways underestimated. Yeah, and then not 1154 01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:22,439 Speaker 6: so surprising because you know, at the end of the day, 1155 01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:27,479 Speaker 6: Andre Leon Talley was still a black man in a 1156 01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:31,160 Speaker 6: place where they are underestimated. 1157 01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, but in the fates of all that. And I 1158 01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:37,000 Speaker 1: hear you and I feel that, and that's all that's real. 1159 01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:39,839 Speaker 1: But what excites me about andre is that there's something 1160 01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:42,320 Speaker 1: that is transcendent about him in the same way that 1161 01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:46,120 Speaker 1: Anina Simone or Jessine Norman or Leantine Price, where yes, 1162 01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:48,160 Speaker 1: they were all black artists and had to deal with 1163 01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:50,080 Speaker 1: the challenges that black artists had to deal with, but 1164 01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:54,040 Speaker 1: they transcended and they were royalty. They were royalty friendly. 1165 01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:56,479 Speaker 1: Bewitch says, you know, her mother thought that, you know, 1166 01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,719 Speaker 1: who's that African prince friend of yours, you know, referring 1167 01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:03,120 Speaker 1: to an I'm like, that's absolutely right for me, that 1168 01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:08,040 Speaker 1: is absolutely right. Andrea Lean Tally is royalty. And he 1169 01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:12,800 Speaker 1: carried himself that way, you know, when the captains came in, 1170 01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:16,840 Speaker 1: he dressed himself that way. And yes, he was black, 1171 01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:19,519 Speaker 1: and there was racism and people were cruel and the 1172 01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:23,400 Speaker 1: world was awful, but he was bigger than all that. 1173 01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:28,160 Speaker 6: Well, I think he saw himself that way. Early on 1174 01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:32,400 Speaker 6: and you know, by the end of his life, he 1175 01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:37,000 Speaker 6: had everyone else believing in him the same way that 1176 01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:38,120 Speaker 6: he believed in himself. 1177 01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:42,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, he proved himself and he lived and he just 1178 01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:45,800 Speaker 1: lived it. The receipts or the receipts he was living it. 1179 01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:48,320 Speaker 1: Is there any other story about Andrea you'd like to 1180 01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:50,760 Speaker 1: share with us, or memory or what do you think 1181 01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:53,160 Speaker 1: his legacy or impact is. 1182 01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:56,240 Speaker 6: Well, I mean I will share a moment that I 1183 01:13:56,320 --> 01:14:00,640 Speaker 6: think also speaks to his legacy, and that is a 1184 01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:06,240 Speaker 6: few years ago he was in Washington and he had 1185 01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:10,880 Speaker 6: been at an event at the residence of the French ambassador, 1186 01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:17,000 Speaker 6: and then he did a talk at the Washington Post. 1187 01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:21,439 Speaker 6: And afterwards, when most guests, you know, just sort of 1188 01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:26,799 Speaker 6: say thank you and exit the stage, Andre stayed seated 1189 01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:32,400 Speaker 6: and pretty much the entire audience just sort of rushed 1190 01:14:32,439 --> 01:14:36,640 Speaker 6: forward to have a moment to speak to him, to 1191 01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:41,920 Speaker 6: ask him a question. And he stayed almost an hour 1192 01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:47,200 Speaker 6: afterwards because so many of the people they just wanted 1193 01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:51,800 Speaker 6: like a moment with him. And I was really impressed 1194 01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:56,320 Speaker 6: and amazed that he sat there and talked to them 1195 01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:00,439 Speaker 6: that long. And I think he really enjoyed. I mean, 1196 01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:04,160 Speaker 6: he loved the you know, all of the adoration that 1197 01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:06,880 Speaker 6: was coming his way. But I also think that that 1198 01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:12,480 Speaker 6: is ultimately his legacy, the fact that he showed creative 1199 01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:18,080 Speaker 6: people that you can create yourself, you can create the 1200 01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:22,599 Speaker 6: life that you wanted. And yeah, you know, he did 1201 01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:24,080 Speaker 6: it in an imperfect way. 1202 01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:27,400 Speaker 1: And when you say imperfect, what do you put to me? 1203 01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:31,040 Speaker 6: Well, when I say imperfect, you know, because he had 1204 01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:36,519 Speaker 6: financial problems and he I think spent a lot of 1205 01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:41,200 Speaker 6: time sort of working his way towards a place where 1206 01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:47,960 Speaker 6: he felt comfortable with himself in fashion as this you know, 1207 01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:52,920 Speaker 6: this large black man. He got there eventually, And I 1208 01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:55,799 Speaker 6: think that's a huge legacy for people. 1209 01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:59,440 Speaker 1: When you say that, I think about someone who's insecure 1210 01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:03,320 Speaker 1: and not sure of themselves. And he says as much, 1211 01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:06,679 Speaker 1: you know, and in memoir and in some fast talks, 1212 01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:09,439 Speaker 1: that he was passionate about the work. And when people 1213 01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:12,040 Speaker 1: always people think I'm confident, and I always say to them, 1214 01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,479 Speaker 1: I'm not confident. I'm just passionate about my work. And 1215 01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,680 Speaker 1: that passion over riot and the insecurity. And I just 1216 01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:25,640 Speaker 1: remember him on television talking about couture and you know, 1217 01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:28,080 Speaker 1: all the fashion TV moments. I thought he's sent on 1218 01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:30,960 Speaker 1: America's next top Model as a judge, which is like 1219 01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:34,400 Speaker 1: that was such an interesting time track a tude and 1220 01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, he's just very it's he's just so entertaining. 1221 01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:42,439 Speaker 1: I mean, he's so made for television in a way 1222 01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:46,320 Speaker 1: because he's so you know, sort of over the top. 1223 01:16:47,320 --> 01:16:50,519 Speaker 6: Well, I think for a lot of people, he was 1224 01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:53,479 Speaker 6: what it meant to be a fashion editor, you know, 1225 01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:59,760 Speaker 6: in that very Hollywood, larger than LifeWay. Yeah, and he 1226 01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:03,639 Speaker 6: leaned into that for sure. It became very adept at 1227 01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:05,360 Speaker 6: playing himself on television. 1228 01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:09,640 Speaker 1: Yes, but it always it never felt like he was 1229 01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:12,080 Speaker 1: parroting himself, though some people go into the realm of 1230 01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:15,080 Speaker 1: self parody. It always because there was It was always 1231 01:17:15,080 --> 01:17:17,760 Speaker 1: grounded in dignity. It was always grounded in and it 1232 01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:19,720 Speaker 1: was grounded in knowledge, and it was grounded in a 1233 01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:24,040 Speaker 1: real love for Ultimately, it was never about him. I 1234 01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:26,880 Speaker 1: think that is the thing. It was never really it 1235 01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:30,280 Speaker 1: was never about Andre. It was strangely enough, as big 1236 01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:33,320 Speaker 1: as his personality was, I think it was about that 1237 01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:37,000 Speaker 1: the manners and the respect. You know, he managed to 1238 01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:41,160 Speaker 1: be that sort of grandiose and not a parody of 1239 01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:44,519 Speaker 1: himself because it was there was so much love there, 1240 01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:47,240 Speaker 1: there was so much passion and respect for fashion. 1241 01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:51,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, for sure, for sure, there was a real propriety 1242 01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:57,120 Speaker 6: that he had and he could you know, there was 1243 01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:01,720 Speaker 6: there was a there was a somewhat judging indeed to 1244 01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:06,920 Speaker 6: Andre and he could definitely be a diva and difficult, 1245 01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:10,559 Speaker 6: but you know, most of the time it was sort 1246 01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:12,599 Speaker 6: of in service to the fashion moment. 1247 01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:18,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, the complicated Andre Alt Andre Leon Tally. I mean, 1248 01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:20,559 Speaker 1: I just I have so much love for him, and 1249 01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:23,160 Speaker 1: I was devastated when he passed away. I wanted to 1250 01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:27,880 Speaker 1: have more conversations with him. He is towering and his 1251 01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:34,080 Speaker 1: legacy I know will live on. I in every podcast 1252 01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:36,439 Speaker 1: with a question what else is true? And it actually 1253 01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:39,599 Speaker 1: comes from my therapy, my trauma resilience therapy, where even 1254 01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:43,479 Speaker 1: when the world is you know, upside down and things 1255 01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:46,479 Speaker 1: are very difficult, there's something that helps us to get 1256 01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,880 Speaker 1: through there's something else that is also true in a moment, 1257 01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:52,640 Speaker 1: it's about living in the space of both. And so 1258 01:18:52,800 --> 01:18:54,720 Speaker 1: for me, you know, what else is true today is 1259 01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:57,599 Speaker 1: even though there's like you know, all these laws against 1260 01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:00,600 Speaker 1: you know, trans people existing papway up in states, that 1261 01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:02,720 Speaker 1: I have love in my life and so that is 1262 01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:06,679 Speaker 1: also true for me today, So for you, Robin Givon today, 1263 01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:08,560 Speaker 1: for you, what else is true? 1264 01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:13,960 Speaker 6: Wow? What a lovely way of thinking about things in 1265 01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:22,360 Speaker 6: moments of trial. What is also true that I got 1266 01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:23,559 Speaker 6: to try again tomorrow? 1267 01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:32,439 Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely for you right now? I mean you get 1268 01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:35,120 Speaker 1: to try again tomorrow, like it is something what's going 1269 01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:36,599 Speaker 1: on today? I'm just curious? 1270 01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:41,080 Speaker 6: Now, Oh well, what's that saying that you know today's 1271 01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:45,920 Speaker 6: newspaper is tomorrow's fish rap. I mean, it's this idea 1272 01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:51,040 Speaker 6: to me that there's always not even another story, there's 1273 01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:55,040 Speaker 6: always another chapter to the story, there's always another facet 1274 01:19:55,080 --> 01:20:00,920 Speaker 6: to the story. Today I'm writing a column which I'm 1275 01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:05,040 Speaker 6: on Deadline. I'm actually writing today about about Jimmy Carter. 1276 01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:07,599 Speaker 1: A relationship to fashion or no, not a. 1277 01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:10,880 Speaker 6: Relationship to fashion. But I think there are two things 1278 01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:14,240 Speaker 6: that fashion really teaches you, and that is how to 1279 01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:19,000 Speaker 6: look and see when you're observing it an image, a 1280 01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:22,799 Speaker 6: photograph of you know, a moment. I think it really 1281 01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:27,760 Speaker 6: helps you get all of the meaning out of it. 1282 01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:31,360 Speaker 6: And I also it also just sort of reminds you 1283 01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:39,960 Speaker 6: that everyone is striving to be in control of their narrative, 1284 01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:43,720 Speaker 6: of their story, and that you know, fashion is one 1285 01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:47,320 Speaker 6: of the many languages that people used to tell their story. 1286 01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:53,280 Speaker 6: It really does make you so much more attuned to 1287 01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:57,720 Speaker 6: how people just want to be seen and understood. 1288 01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:03,120 Speaker 1: I love that of that, that's and not you know, 1289 01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:05,559 Speaker 1: people can think fashion is very superficial, but there's nothing 1290 01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,599 Speaker 1: superficial about that. It's always That's always been the case 1291 01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:10,639 Speaker 1: for me. When I started dressing myself, it was really 1292 01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:13,360 Speaker 1: about announcing to the world. In the words of miss 1293 01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:16,439 Speaker 1: Rag from George Sea Wolf's Color Museum, I'm not your average, 1294 01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:20,080 Speaker 1: ordinary pres Negro. I have superpowers. 1295 01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:27,320 Speaker 6: We understand that, right. I mean, fashion can be really 1296 01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:31,160 Speaker 6: good at just sort of like directing people away from 1297 01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:37,320 Speaker 6: its substance. But from the earliest moments, like your three 1298 01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:40,519 Speaker 6: year olds and four year olds who have these very 1299 01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:47,080 Speaker 6: strong opinions about what they're going to wear, and even 1300 01:21:47,120 --> 01:21:50,920 Speaker 6: at that age, you just sort of innately know that 1301 01:21:51,479 --> 01:21:54,000 Speaker 6: people are looking at you and you want to be 1302 01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:55,920 Speaker 6: in control of what they see. 1303 01:21:56,040 --> 01:22:00,200 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Oh, what a process that is. It's great to 1304 01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:02,280 Speaker 1: get to a place in your life when you are 1305 01:22:03,160 --> 01:22:06,679 Speaker 1: when that integration is actualized. I mean part of being 1306 01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:09,080 Speaker 1: trans is that too, like making your insights and your 1307 01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:12,040 Speaker 1: vision of yourself on the inside. You know, the outside 1308 01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:16,559 Speaker 1: match that. But yeah, it is a really powerful feeling 1309 01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:21,120 Speaker 1: to finally get to that place where you what you're 1310 01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:25,519 Speaker 1: going for is reading kaya right. One of my hairstyles says, 1311 01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:28,640 Speaker 1: she reads, it's reading, you know, like the intention or 1312 01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:32,680 Speaker 1: the story is reading right. I love the message the 1313 01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:38,000 Speaker 1: book is being communicated. If she reads, it's fabulous, it's vab. 1314 01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:39,920 Speaker 6: I'm stealing that it's reading. 1315 01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:45,479 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Robin for joining me for this 1316 01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:50,599 Speaker 1: wonderful conversation about Andre, about fashion. Thank you so much 1317 01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:51,479 Speaker 1: for your time today. 1318 01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:53,960 Speaker 6: Thank you so much for having me. It has been 1319 01:22:54,080 --> 01:22:56,920 Speaker 6: a pleasure and I look forward to talking to you again. 1320 01:22:57,080 --> 01:23:05,680 Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, Thank you so much to Norm mcmally and 1321 01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:11,560 Speaker 1: Robin Gavon for sharing their thoughts, their stories, their insights 1322 01:23:11,600 --> 01:23:17,880 Speaker 1: on the late, great the legend Andre Leon Tally. I 1323 01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:21,559 Speaker 1: keep going back to Andrea arriving in New York City 1324 01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:25,639 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies working at Interview magazine, and that 1325 01:23:25,760 --> 01:23:30,320 Speaker 1: very first trip to Paris, and those moments that shaped 1326 01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:35,160 Speaker 1: who Andre would become, those seminal moments with mister Lagerfeld, 1327 01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:40,519 Speaker 1: with Andy Warhol, with Diana Vreeland, and I love to 1328 01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:45,559 Speaker 1: imagine like a twenty something Andre like becoming you know, 1329 01:23:46,080 --> 01:23:52,000 Speaker 1: becoming Andre, my therapist often says, we are hardwired for 1330 01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:57,519 Speaker 1: story as human beings and thinking of fashion and fashion 1331 01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:01,800 Speaker 1: stories and the story that you want to tell to 1332 01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:04,160 Speaker 1: the world about who you are through the way that 1333 01:24:04,200 --> 01:24:07,960 Speaker 1: you dress. Andrea told us so many stories about who 1334 01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:15,800 Speaker 1: he is through style, through his interactions with great fashion designers, editors, 1335 01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:22,439 Speaker 1: and stylists. And I love Andre's commitment to telling the 1336 01:24:22,439 --> 01:24:27,040 Speaker 1: world who he was through his style, through his fashion, 1337 01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:32,520 Speaker 1: through the way he saw fashion, the way he reviewed 1338 01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:36,560 Speaker 1: a show or talked about a show, the way he 1339 01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:42,200 Speaker 1: nurtured talent, the talent that he chose to nurture. Oh, 1340 01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:45,360 Speaker 1: he was just great. He was really really great and singular. 1341 01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:52,839 Speaker 1: And as I get older and want to keep going 1342 01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:58,720 Speaker 1: artistically and professionally, the levels of excellence that are epitomized 1343 01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:05,080 Speaker 1: and on Leon Tally, I'll probably never reach, but they 1344 01:25:05,240 --> 01:25:12,519 Speaker 1: are aspirational because they are worth going for. Those heights, 1345 01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:17,160 Speaker 1: those levels of excellence are so worth trying to achieve, 1346 01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:22,720 Speaker 1: trying to get there, and there's just they'll just never 1347 01:25:22,760 --> 01:25:26,640 Speaker 1: be another Andre leon Tally. Thank you, Andre, thank you 1348 01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:38,880 Speaker 1: so much, thank you, thank you, thank you everyone for 1349 01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:42,080 Speaker 1: listening to the second season of The laver and Cox Show. 1350 01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:46,479 Speaker 1: What a journey. Thank you for being there with us 1351 01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:51,559 Speaker 1: and for inviting me into your life. And thank you 1352 01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:56,639 Speaker 1: to all the incredible guests who've inspired us, who've entertained us, 1353 01:25:57,160 --> 01:26:00,519 Speaker 1: who've given us so much to think about. I love 1354 01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:04,200 Speaker 1: you all so much. Thank you to everyone at Shondaland 1355 01:26:04,280 --> 01:26:12,320 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio, You're amazing. Until next time, stay in the love. 1356 01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:18,439 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show is a production of Shondaland Audio 1357 01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:22,880 Speaker 1: in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, 1358 01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:27,240 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen 1359 01:26:27,240 --> 01:26:28,640 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.