1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: So every so often we dive into a subject that 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: we know we're going to return to in the future, 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: or a subject that is just too big to be 4 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: one episode. And that's what we ran into when we 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: started asking ourselves about banks, drugs, and money. We didn't 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: do this alone. We did this as part of a 7 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: long interview segment with Robert Maser, who is, by the way, 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: as you'll find in in Part one m Part two, 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: a really cool guy. He is. We watched a movie 10 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: that was based on Robert's work, and it was a 11 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: fictionalized telling of his story, but we actually got to 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: sit down with him and hear it from his own mouth. 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: It was awesome, cool movie too, by the way, the 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: Infiltrator check it out and check out this classic episode 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: right now. From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, 16 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: history is riddled with unexplained events you can turn back 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: now or and the stuff they don't want you to know. 18 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 19 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: name is Noel, I'm Ben you or you that makes 20 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: this stuff they don't want you to know, but not 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: the average episode of stuff they don't want you to know? 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: Isn't that right? Guys, we've got a little added value 23 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: here in this particular pair of episodes. This is this 24 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: our first ever two partner No, I don't think so. 25 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: I know we've we split DARPA up into two and 26 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: there were a couple other ones that well, this is 27 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: definitely our first ever two part interview episode. That's true 28 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: about the same thing. So, by way of explanation, ladies 29 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: and gentlemen, you have heard Matt Nolan I refer to 30 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: UH or allude to various adventures that we've taken, or 31 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: new things that we said we're coming or we're on 32 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: the way, we get around, we get around and UH, 33 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: this time we around to Uh. We got around to 34 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: a part of the world, at least socially speaking, that 35 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: we haven't really explored into much depth. And that was 36 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: a it concerned a tail that is stranger than fiction. 37 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: So you've heard of undercover operations, right, Like, what what 38 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: exactly is an undercover operation? It's pretty simple. One person 39 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: who is usually in law enforcement in some way, pretends 40 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: to be let's say, uh, a nefarious gang member from 41 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: a different part of town or new to town. But 42 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: I'm into all this bad stuff, Like I I like 43 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: to let's say launder money, or maybe deal drugs, maybe 44 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: torture kittens. Yeah, do one of those things. Get in 45 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: with a crew like low level maybe something like that. 46 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: And that's a distinction that we need to make right 47 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: up front. There are certainly different kinds of undercover operations. 48 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: Some might just be for a particular sting where you 49 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 1: have a cop posing as as one of these various 50 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: types that you mentioned. But what we're talking about today 51 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: is long term, deep undercover operations, which is a whole 52 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: another ball game, a very dangerous one indeed. So just 53 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: to illustrate the difference pretty quickly, one of the rules 54 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: has always keep things as close to the truth as possible, 55 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: so you don't compromise your actual identity. So Matt Frederick then, 56 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: for instance, if is it okay if we make you 57 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: street level? Sure, okay. So Matt Frederick then is assigned 58 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: to do some street level infiltration of maybe someone's selling 59 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: what's a drug? Well, I have to go in and 60 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: infiltrate stringer bells like low level crew. So I've got 61 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: again get in with the the group who's selling drugs 62 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: out of the the apartment. Yeah, so okay, So you 63 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: become Matt Frederick is gone and replaced by Murdoch Farnsworth. 64 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: That name I've ever heard of my life, Murdoch Farnsworth. 65 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: I think people just call your Murdoch. Murdoch Farnsworth has 66 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: a c I or an informant who comes along with 67 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: him to vouch for him from their days in an 68 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: outlaw biker gang or something. Right, And the weird thing 69 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: is that at some points, Uh Murdoch is going to 70 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: have to do things that Matt Frederick would never do, 71 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 1: you know, probably sample a drug at some point, possibly 72 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: because there's a lot of the streets order people might yeah, 73 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: other illegal stuff, aiding a bet, crimes, maybe rough someone 74 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: up to show that you are Murdoch. Possibly even witness 75 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: a murder that you could have prevented. Possibly possibly not 76 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: because you know, I'm a little squeamish. And the line 77 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: blurs in. This line is even blurrier if we take, 78 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: for instance, uh, Noel Brown, and while Matt Frederick is 79 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: working at the street level operation, let's say Noel Brown 80 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: is infiltrating a human trafficking ring. This is even stickier 81 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: human trafficking ring because let's see, he changes his name, 82 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: what's his name now? Matt Nicholas Barnaby. Yes, Nicholas Barnaby 83 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: two first names, Nick Nicholas Barnaby. A well old money, 84 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: wealthy philanthropist who has and philanderer who has decided that 85 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: the only people you could trust in this world are 86 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: people that you own, and so he is infiltrating. Uh. 87 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: Sadly this is true because of Hartsfield Airport here in Atlanta, 88 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: it is a hub for human trafficking. So it is 89 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: you you would see, hopefully, ladies and gentlemen, how this 90 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: undercover sting kind of stuff can happen as a little 91 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: set for variety of recents. So we've got Murdoch on 92 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: there for maybe a few months, right, pulling everyone you 93 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: can maybe nab somebody, maybe the maybe there's something political 94 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: where you're involved, where they say, okay, now we need 95 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: the bust because someone's coming up for election, which unfortunately happens. 96 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: But in the other case, we we have Mr Barnaby. 97 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: I am like embedded in this world. Yeah, yeah, I 98 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: am making I am playing the long game. I am 99 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: making connections, meeting people above those connections, and doing everything 100 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: in my power to make it as high up the 101 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: chain as possible so that I can turn those people 102 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: into my um, the people that I answered to, and 103 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: should you, should either of you survive? Uh, this strange 104 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: and terrifying thing is that neither of you will be 105 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: able to live fully return to your natural life because 106 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: there will always be concerns for your safety. Right. What's 107 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: going to happen when uh the foreign connection for whatever 108 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: drug empire Murdoch bust learns that Murdoch Farnsworth is fictitious, 109 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: but someone who looks a lot like them lives in 110 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: the same area. Sure, even if we successfully put people 111 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: away for years, maybe even a life sentence for twenty years, 112 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: in the future, those people will be out of jail. Well, 113 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: not only that, I mean, if watching shows like OZ 114 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: or you know, the Sopranos teaches you anything, it's that 115 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: being in prison is not the end all be all. 116 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: You still have associates on the outside that you can 117 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: communicate with quite easily, especially if you're uh, you know, 118 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: a big player, and in that scene, you are protected 119 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: and you are surrounded by your people in prison, and 120 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: it's very easy to get a message out, to put 121 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: out a hit, even from prison. So why are we 122 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: beating around the bush with all of this fantasy. Ah, yes, 123 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: excellent question. Perhaps we're more painting the background of the 124 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: picture of today's topic, which is undercover policing, which which 125 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: is uh, these sting operations, these long term embedded things, 126 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, Matt and Noel and I spoke with 127 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: someone who has done this in real life, and uh, 128 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: during the course of our interview, we got a first 129 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: hand look at how these how these operations occur, both 130 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: for the good and the bad. And we do want 131 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: you to know that due to security concerns, we have 132 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: had to mask this person's voice. Uh. This man's name 133 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: is Robert Maser. Now, last Friday, Ben and All and 134 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: I got to go and see the film The Infiltrator, 135 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: which is based on the book that this man, Robert Maser, 136 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: wrote about his time infiltrating the the Medine cartel in Colombia. Now, 137 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: this show is going to focus a lot on that 138 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: film and what we saw and the experiences because it 139 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 1: is based on what this guy actually did, and you're 140 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: going to see as we get into some of these questions, 141 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: he's kind of separating what became the film as opposed 142 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: to what was, you know, his real life and what 143 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: he experienced fascinating in and of itself, because it's how 144 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: cool was it to be able to talk to the 145 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: subject of a biopic like this and say, hey, so, 146 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: what's up with that scene where you had to go 147 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: into the Santa Ria temple and um, you know, be 148 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: kind of given a test by you know, this practitioner 149 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: Padrino exactly, and you know what, how did that really 150 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: go down? This is a question that you will hear. 151 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: And just just to give you a little context, this 152 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: is a scene that happened in the movie where this 153 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: band is being vetted by these high level drug officials. 154 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: Spoiler alerts a little bit of a spoiler alert, but 155 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: I just wanted to give you a sense of how 156 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: cool it was to be able to separate what happened 157 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: in the film with what happened in real in the 158 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: actual operation the course of the operation. And there's a 159 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: lot of moments like that. It's a great film. I 160 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: really would recommend it. It was a lot. It reminded me. 161 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: It kind of had the the feel of Good Fellas 162 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: in a way that kind of really dynamic, interesting kind 163 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: of um ensemble cast, and it was very funny. It 164 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: moves very quickly and it doesn't pull any punches. It 165 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: really gives you a sense there's no glorification of either 166 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: what this man is doing, because he has to do 167 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: some pretty intense stuff in the name of his operation 168 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: and getting it done. And then of course you see 169 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: the havoc that drugs and drug violence and smuggling and 170 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: money laundering can wreak on people's lives. So Robert Maser 171 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: began something called Operation c Chase, and with a team 172 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: at its height hundreds and hundreds of people. Uh, he 173 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: and his group did something extraordinary at the time, which 174 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: is they began to follow the financial footprints rather than 175 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: the narcotic footprints, by which we mean they didn't just 176 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: start chasing cocaine shipments from c I s or whatever 177 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: or can you know informants. What they started doing was 178 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: finding out what banks handled, what money, where it went, 179 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: how it changed hands. And over the course of this 180 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: he became Bob Maser, became somebody named Bob Mussella. We 181 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: were given the opportunity to interview Mr Maser because of 182 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: his involvement in this movie. Um An agency reached out 183 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: to us and asked if we were interested in speaking 184 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: with him, and it was something we just could not 185 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: pass up. And while the Infiltrator did not sponsor this episode, 186 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: we do have a sponsor and we're gonna get to 187 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: that now and then get right into the interview with 188 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: Mr Maser. So, first things first, Mr Maser, how satisfied 189 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: are you with the adaptation of the story? Well, you know, um, 190 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: and I'm not say that. You know, it's very difficult 191 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: for me to compare because we're talking apples and oranges, 192 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: you know, those films for entertainment. Um, And my book 193 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: is my attempt to tell my version of the truth. 194 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: And I say it that way because you know, this 195 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: was no individual effort. This was a team effort by 196 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: about two and fifty at the height of the operation, 197 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: about two and fifty people. So, and I think if 198 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: you asked each of them to write a book, you'd 199 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: probably have some variations. And it's not because anyone who's 200 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: not being truthful, just because they have their own perspectives. 201 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: And so for me, um, you know, I think that 202 00:12:54,520 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: the film adaptation certainly brings across a lot of the 203 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: the issues that need to be brought across. And of course, 204 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: when they want to go from point to point B 205 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 1: if it took me twenty five steps to do it. 206 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: They just obviously can't do it and that medium. But um, 207 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: they get to the end point, and I think deliver 208 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: um the type of end result on a given topic, 209 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: like the the relationship between let's say the me Brian 210 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: Cranston and Benjamin Bratt in the film. You know some 211 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: of the things that are in there that are that 212 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 1: build to helping the movie goer to recognize that this 213 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: is um beyond just an undercover agent and a bad 214 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: guy dealing together and and being an undercover agent causes 215 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: you to have to to build some bonds with with 216 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: a person. Um is different. It happened a little bit 217 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: differently with me, but the end result is all the same. 218 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: You you still had a recognition by both characters that 219 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: you got to know each other over a period of 220 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: time and that that involves much more than just um 221 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: the give clinical contact as undercover agent and bad guy. 222 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: If if, if I'm getting through on that, it's so 223 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: fascinating to me. This is known by the way UM 224 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: watching this film and thinking of it in kind of 225 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: a meta sense where you know, clearly we're watching this 226 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: very excellent character actor Brian Cranston play this role of 227 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: a man that is essentially being a character actor and 228 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: playing a role and having to disappear into a part um. 229 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: I just find that very fascinating. I'm just wondering if 230 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: that aspect of it felt did it ring true to you? 231 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: Just the need to completely disappear into these covert characters 232 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: that you're essentially creating. Yeah, you know, and and and 233 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: you bring up a good point about character because the 234 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: character that I created, because when I was trained to 235 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: be along term undercover agents. I mean I was an 236 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: agent traditional in a traditional sense for fourteen years before 237 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: I went through the undercover school and then began to develop, 238 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: um the undercover identity of Robert Mosella. But one of 239 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: the things that was taught to me right from the 240 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: very beginning, um it was that I really needed to 241 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: build a persona that would put me in a position 242 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: to lie the least so because it's so hard to 243 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: keep track over years period of time if you're not 244 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: naturally working within your own skin and so to speak. 245 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: So I'm originally from New York. I have previously before 246 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: working for law enforcement, I worked at a bank, and 247 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: then I've worked in a brokerage, firm, and I UM, 248 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: I have some of the family experiences that I lived 249 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: in a neighborhood and was in around some people who 250 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: were UM certainly connected to another part of the world. 251 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: And I then I became connected with UM and and 252 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: so I had a sense of what Italian American organized 253 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: crime was about. And and so I didn't really have 254 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: to That's that's what Bob Mascella had in him too. 255 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: Bob Moselle I was was a guy who had my 256 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: My degree was in business administration finance, and I had 257 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: a heavy emphasis in accounting, and and so was Bob Mascella. 258 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: He was a guy who uh knew how to deal 259 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: in the business world and had a financial background. Then 260 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: was from the New York area and had these connections 261 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: with organized crime and and so a lot of that 262 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: stuff is stuff that I was very very comfortable with. 263 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: I didn't create a persona where you know, I would 264 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: turn on a switch and now I was this big 265 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: flamboyant guy that UM that was a completely different person 266 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: my personality. I think UM that I poor trade was 267 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: probably similar to what UM my real personality is. I think, 268 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: you know what I would hear back from the traffickers 269 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: about why they were interested in doing business with me 270 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: was because I was stable, I was I knew about 271 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: the things that they didn't know about in the financial markets. 272 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: I was cautious, UM, I was loky. Um. All of 273 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: those things were very important to them. And all of 274 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: those things, those things were really a part about major 275 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: And this, this is a this is a fascinating aspect 276 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: of the story because, as you say, being in someone 277 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: else's skin for the duration of this operation. Uh that 278 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: the operation specifically cited is called C Chase. And one 279 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: thing that really impacted us and impacts our audience as well, 280 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: is the recognition of just how long term this operation became. 281 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: Could could you tell us in our audience a little 282 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: bit about the origin or the genesis of C Chase 283 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: And Bob Masella sure well, having worked on a multi 284 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: agency task force that's whose principal responsibility was attempting to 285 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: identify the commanding control of the cartels as well as 286 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: identifying the problem the money launderers who were servicing the 287 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: commanding control. UM, we had been using search warrant's wire taps, 288 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: historical witnesses that type of thing, and came to the 289 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: conclusion um, and I was really blessed with working with 290 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: a leadership that was willing to hear out the idea 291 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 1: of this plan. Um Um. My view was, and it 292 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: was shared by a few of my colleagues, that the 293 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 1: best way to accomplish our goal was to infiltrate their 294 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: money laundering systems, and that that was embraced. So that 295 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: got me through the undercover schools. That got me through 296 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: then about eighteen months of time where we put together 297 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: the undercover front, and that was put together with the 298 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 1: help of several informants and concerned citizens. Um. There were 299 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: two guys that were informants of mine who were um 300 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: we would call them in in the underworld, knock around guys. 301 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: They didn't work for any one particular crew, but they 302 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: were certainly part of a family and um they they 303 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: they and they're under their their organized crime contacts enabled 304 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: us to be able to use certain businesses. Actually, both 305 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: those guys played the roles in the undercover operation. From 306 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: time to time I would bring them in in cameos 307 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: as my cousins. And one of the guys used to 308 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: be a bodyguard for a capo in a crime family. 309 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: And you can't I mean he would walk in a 310 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: room and p I would look at him and nobody 311 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: had to say anything. They immediately recognized what he was 312 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: really all about, very much like the dominic figure in 313 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: the movie UM that is played by Joe Gillen and UH. 314 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: The other guy was much more pro polished and had 315 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: some Wall Street contacts and UM and then we also 316 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: had an informant from Columbia. And then I had a 317 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: couple of lifelong friends of mine who were bankers and 318 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: brokers who enabled me to establish accounts at various institutions UM. 319 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: This took about an eighteen month period of time, and 320 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: as I emerged from that, I was embedded in real 321 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: businesses finance company and mortgage brokerage business. We had a 322 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: air shorter service with a private jet, a jewelry chain 323 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: with thirty locations on the East Coast, and even a 324 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: brokerage firm UM with a seat on the New York 325 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: Stock Exchange. So I didn't have to be the best 326 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: undercut age in the world. I was less with leadership 327 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: that gave me the latitude to put that together. And 328 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: then UM we were waiting for a unique opportunity to 329 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: use the trojan horse that was built and lo and 330 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: behold my gentleman who became my partner and is now 331 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: a brother to me. Amor Obray who played by John 332 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: Leguizamo in the movie. UM had an informant who had 333 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: made connections with a money broker. That money broker being 334 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:35,719 Speaker 1: someone who personally knew U members of the Ochoa family 335 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 1: who were sitting on a median cartel, and who was 336 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: trying to get himself well established in the money laundering business. 337 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: So with with that opportunity, we engaged the trojan horse 338 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: and marched into the median cartel. And it took about 339 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: two years to get to the end. UM. And and 340 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: believe me, along the way, we were very lucky. UM. 341 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: So times as they say, it's better to be lucky 342 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: than good, and I'm proof of that. H the good 343 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: things that happened along the way. For example, UM, the 344 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: people in the cartel wanted me to pay out in 345 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: dollar accounts that they preferred that they beat. Dollar accounts 346 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,239 Speaker 1: established in institutions in Panama. For obvious reasons, accessed by 347 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: US law enforcement was more restricted, So I needed to 348 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: open that up. And I had just happened to be 349 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: driving through downtown Tampa and noticed this big buld sign 350 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: that's a Bank of Credit and Commerce International b c 351 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: C I and assumed that they must have the ability 352 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: to help you bank in in their foreign locations. I 353 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: didn't really know much about the bank, so I called 354 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: and like anyone else who approaches an international bank that 355 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: had a private client division, UM, I was asked to 356 00:22:55,600 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: provide a resume copies of bank statements, UM copies. I 357 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: needed references in the bank and business world. UM I 358 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: had all that stuff. I needed to have a million 359 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: dollars at I could potentially they could manage. All of 360 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: that was verifiable and um and I was invited to 361 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: have a meeting at the bank. And I mean, here's 362 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: an example of lucky instead of good. UM. I go 363 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: in and I sit down, and um the guy asked 364 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: me what it is I'm looking for, and I explained, well, 365 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, most of my clients are from Medie in Columbia, 366 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: and they have businesses. They have business activity here in 367 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: the United States that generates a huge, huge amount of 368 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: capital and it's my responsibility to help them to move 369 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: that money in a very discreet and quiet way. And 370 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: um and I didn't get much past all of that, 371 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: and the guy said to me, what do you do 372 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: you think you'll have a need because I was telling 373 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: about moving money in from Panama to buy real estate 374 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: in the US, and he said, do you think you'll 375 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: have a need to move it in the other direction? 376 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: And I said, well, yeah, there's no doubt about that. 377 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: And then then they broke into this discussion about well, 378 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: I know what you're talking about. That's the black money market. 379 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: And we have clients like you that have sensitive clients 380 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: and and we were helping them to open accounts and 381 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: grand came and until this treaty was signed with the 382 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: US government. Um, and I knew the treaty. The treaty 383 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: had to do with turning bank records over in drug cases. 384 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: And he said, you know, but we're now we're recommending Panama. 385 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: And ultimately he drifted into saying, well, you know, you've 386 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: got to be careful on the stupid people get caught, 387 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: get yourself involved in cash businesses. You've got to cover 388 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: to take in the cash. And I left that meeting 389 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: and went contacted my office and said, you're not going 390 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: to believe the meeting I just had. This is like 391 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: every red flag I've ever been taught in my entire 392 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: government career, uh to look for. And this is not 393 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: an individual banker looking to do something against management. This 394 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: is this sounds like an institutional plan. And lo and 395 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: behold of we're probably a year and a half period 396 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: of time. I was able to uh get the evidence 397 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: through discussions with more than a dozen senior bank officials 398 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: at that bank about the bank's institutional plan to market 399 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: the other world. Um, that sounds like an easy thing 400 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: to do. It wasn't, but but it was amazing. How 401 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: lucky breaks, you know. I guess some people say luck 402 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: is just being well planned for the opportunity when it 403 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: comes by. And the opportunity came. Um again, really, when 404 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: we opened up an account in Panama and one of 405 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: the checks written by one of the bad guys, because 406 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: I would just signed the checks, one of the checks 407 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: written by the bad guys, UM was filled out improperly. 408 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: It was supposed to be for what's just for example sake, 409 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: to say a hundred and three thousand, and it was 410 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: written in words A hundred and three thousand and numbers 411 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: a hundred three thousand, five hundred and So the officer 412 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: assigned to my account in Panama called me and said 413 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: what amounts should it be? Honor? And I said, well, 414 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: you probably know I can't answer that. I'll have to 415 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: call Columbia and I'll call you back. And I did, 416 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: and I explained what the amount was to pay, and 417 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: he said to me, Um, you know we need to 418 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: meet because you're gonna get caught and there's a lot 419 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: better way to do what you're doing. And so there 420 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: was no doubt in my mind that the people managing 421 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: my account in Panama could tell just from the movements 422 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,239 Speaker 1: and the accounts that we were marketing Narco dollars on 423 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: the black money market, and Beho, because of that mistake, 424 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: back got flushed out. He came to Miami, we sat down. 425 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: Of course, all these conversations were being recorded, and Um, 426 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: he explained how it is that I could better launder 427 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: drug money. And then and then I said to him, well, 428 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: it's great, you're getting back on a plane and going 429 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: back to Panama. Um, I'm here in Florida, and if 430 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: there's a problem and I need to see someone quickly, 431 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: are there any people in your Miami office that are 432 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: on your team handling these kinds of sensitive accounts. And 433 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: at that stage he said yes, and there were two people, 434 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: and he named them. And when I called back to 435 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: the office and explained that one of them was a 436 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: fellow named Amada One, all the bills and whistles between 437 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: Florida and Washington went off because that was the financial 438 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: advisor that US government was eager to try to pin down. 439 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: He was managing the illicit fortune of Menuel Noriega. And 440 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 1: so when you know, we went from there to Paris, 441 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 1: to London, to the Bahamas UM and eventually we got 442 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: to the end of the end of the story. But 443 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: it was pretty well proven that the bank was marketing 444 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: the underworld anybody with money that was seeking secrecy from governments. 445 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: And the Bank of Credit and Commerce International was at 446 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: this time one of the ten biggest banks in the world, 447 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: is that correct, seventh largest really held ank in the world. 448 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: At the time of their assets were I think about 449 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: nineteen billion dollars. They were in seventy two countries, more 450 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: than five seven branches UM. As we substantiated later there 451 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: their clients included UM not just arms dealers and terrorists 452 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: and drug traffickers and tactivators UM, but also UM some 453 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: of the bigger politicians in the world and the intelligence 454 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: community as well, actually wanted to clarify something. Um. As 455 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: as as your relationship with these folks in the film, 456 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: at least as it was portraying, the film progressed and 457 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: you had to earn their trust and and get their 458 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: business and close the deal. It seemed to me that 459 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: there was more going on than just moving money around, 460 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: that you needed to show them that you could actually 461 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: grow their money. Is that accurate or did I miss 462 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: misinterpret that? Well, I had to. I had to be 463 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: able to show that their money would be secure. I 464 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: had to be able to as they put, we need guarantees, 465 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, people with illicit fortunes. Unlike what I think 466 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: some people suggest that they may have tried to trick 467 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: a bank into laundry money. Um, we never tricked anybody, 468 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: and and my my clients and the cartel never tried 469 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: to trick anybody. Um. It was something that required uh, 470 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: an agreement and an acceptance of responsibility, knowing full well 471 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: that the consequences of lost funds could be your life. Um. 472 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: So I was trying to get them too, and I 473 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: think through a degree, succeeded to get them, not just 474 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: to wander money through my accounts. That doesn't really accomplish 475 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: much after you've wandered money for the same guy a 476 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: couple of times. If you continue to laund their money 477 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: for the same person and the money is going into 478 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: the same place, all you're doing is facilitating crime. UM. 479 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: And so the mantra by what we we move forward 480 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: was if you're not meeting any new bad guys and 481 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: you're not uncovering any new crime, we could shut down. 482 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: We should shut down UM. And so we were always 483 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: on the move of trying to to do just that, 484 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: and we were also on the move to try to 485 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: get them to keep money with us as long as 486 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: we could, because if we get them to use us 487 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: to invest their funds will have more disease at the end. 488 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: But even more importantly and clearly more importantly, in order 489 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: to be able to have the responsibility to invest funds 490 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: for someone, in all likelihood you're going to be able 491 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: to force a meeting with the beneficial owner of the funds. 492 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: And that's really what it was all about, getting past 493 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: all these middlemen and trying to deal directly with the 494 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: type of people, as Benjamin Bratt portrayed, who were major 495 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: players within the cartel. So you know, the the investment 496 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: um angle. Although it was nice to get investments, to 497 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: manage with a technique, to be able to meet people 498 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: of responsibility important an authority within the cartel. I have 499 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: to ask about that Santa Ria scene that was so 500 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: compelling the way it was portrayed in the film. It 501 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: was just as a life or death situation that you know, 502 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: from where we sat was tied to you know, what 503 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: some might call superstition. Um, what was walking into that 504 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: situation like, well, nobody got killed sitting next to me, 505 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: but I you know, it was pretty controversial. Um. I 506 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: was dealing with a guy who his wife was related 507 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: to Gotta Rivera, one of the members out of the cartel, 508 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: and I think it was his wife was a niece 509 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: and he was a practicing uh he was practicing somebody. 510 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: And as I got to know him some he said, 511 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: you know, I'm very interested in doing business with you, 512 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: but I need to make sure that my prio, my 513 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: priest um believes in you, and so i'd like him, 514 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: I'd like you to come to Miami and we'll go visit, 515 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: uh the Santero and will we'll see what he has 516 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: to say. Well, some people back in the office thought 517 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: that was kind of way too risky that if the guy, 518 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: for whatever reason said no, didn't matter how good we were, 519 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: what we did, you know we were going to lose 520 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: the relationship. Um. But I knew we weren't going to 521 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: get a relationship with him if we didn't do it. 522 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: So you have to lose really so Um. It was 523 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: in an area called Sweetwater in Miami. Um, very low, well, 524 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: I would say low blue collar at best kind of area. Um. 525 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: The house itself had burglar bars on it, so once 526 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: you were in, you were in a bird cage. It 527 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: couldn't get out. Um. I went there with him. He 528 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: went into the room with the priest. The room was 529 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: just like a bedroom with a wooden floor. Um. And 530 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: I could see, I mean, there was an altar there. Um. 531 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: I could see the candles and statues and all that 532 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And I could see that there had 533 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: been sacrifices there. There's dried blood on the floor and 534 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: you know, checking parts and stuff like that. And UM, 535 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: so I came into the room and he wasn't The 536 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: guy wasn't a big, imposing muscular guy like the guy 537 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: in the film. But it's important to show that because 538 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: he had a lot of power and you know, that's 539 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that I think, you know, you 540 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: need to appreciate as a movie go or when you 541 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: look at that, when you see that guy you in 542 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 1: the movie, you know he's powerful. You could tell from 543 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: his body style. Well, the guy that I dealt with 544 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 1: wasn't like that. He was much much lighter. But all 545 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,959 Speaker 1: he did was come and embraced me and turned back 546 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,479 Speaker 1: to the altar. And then he came back to me, 547 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: held my hands and asked me to step outside, and 548 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: I did, and then he brought a trafficker in there, 549 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 1: and and then I waited outside, and when he came out, 550 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: the trafficker came out, he was all smiles and hugged 551 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,959 Speaker 1: me and said, you know, Petrino says you're a good 552 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: and honorable man and that I should do business with you. 553 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: So we will. And and and when I told that 554 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: story to the people in the office, some of them 555 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 1: kind of chuckled because they said, well, you know, the 556 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: the priest wasn't that wrong. You're you are a good 557 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: and honorable guy. It's just that you're not You're just 558 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: not a money lownder, really a money lownder. So you know, 559 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: I don't know whether there's much to them or not, 560 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,919 Speaker 1: but it worked for them and it worked for me. Yeah, 561 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: and it's uh. That was one of the scenes that 562 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: really that really stayed with us. Uh. And also the 563 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: it seems like one of the most important currencies involved 564 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: in this operation was trust. Was earning the trust of 565 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,720 Speaker 1: these people through as you said, uh, the personality traits 566 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: that they prized, the stability, consistency, reliability, and when when 567 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: we were looking at this this larger network from Bank 568 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: of Credit and Commerce International. Uh. One thing that we 569 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: noticed that a lot of our audience we'll have questions about, 570 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: is the nuts and bolts of converting drug money into 571 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: something that appeared to be legitimate. And ultimately what happened 572 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: to the funds and the asked that's that were seized 573 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: at the conclusion of Operation c Chase. Well, you know, 574 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: as far as laundering goes, it's like snowflakes. I mean, 575 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: there's so many different ways in which you can do it. Um, 576 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: very few are alike, but there are some fundamental issues. 577 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you've got suitcases and boxes full of cash, 578 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: and you need to get it into the financial system 579 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 1: so that you can make a payout UM and either 580 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: a wire transfer or a check. So what bcc I 581 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: was doing at the time, and it's something that continues 582 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: to happen today. You know, I've read the deferred prostitution 583 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: agreements and and the toothless indictments that have been brought 584 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: against banks in the in the recent past. I say 585 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: toothless indictments because if you're indicted and you're a bank, 586 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: you should lose your license. But that doesn't happen. Um, 587 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: when indictments are returned against banks these days, Um they 588 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: wind up paying a fine, and um, not a whole 589 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: lot of people go to jail and and life goes on. 590 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 1: But when you to look at those deferred prosecutions, there's 591 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 1: a section in there, um called a manner of means 592 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: by which the crime of how they're committing a crime 593 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: for an account holder is done. And and I've looked 594 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 1: at them, you know there's one for well, they all 595 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: have a lot of a very very similar techniques that 596 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: we're being used by b c c I back in 597 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: the day, or are clearly still being used based upon 598 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: my reading of the deferred prosecutions in the last five 599 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: or six years. But anyway, the long and short of 600 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 1: it is that number one they offered to take the 601 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: cash from US and deposited into their branches. But they 602 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: they were very mindful at the time to do that 603 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: in the U S branch needed needed a very fine 604 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,479 Speaker 1: twist to it. So UM I was offered to take 605 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: the money to the Bahamas. I was offered to take 606 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: the money to Uruguay. I was offered to take the 607 00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: money to UM Panama. UM I do that. In other instances, UH, 608 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: they were bringing in cash in Miami, booking it in 609 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: as though it was cash shipped back from the Bahamas 610 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: branch UM and being deposited in b c I in Miami. UM. 611 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,280 Speaker 1: But once you get the cash in the next step 612 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: was to take the capital and put it into a CD, 613 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: which was normally done in Luxembourg. UM. They had to 614 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: find form a lot of UM. They either had to 615 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,919 Speaker 1: form or I needed to give another lawyer to form 616 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: one way or the other. The accounts needed to be 617 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: in the name of an offshore entity, and most often 618 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:43,240 Speaker 1: those entities were in U, b v I, Panma, Gibraltar UM. 619 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: Those who don't want to Hong Kong UM. So a 620 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,839 Speaker 1: c D gets established. Let's use as an example, a 621 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: million dollars and it's a ninety days c D with 622 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: an automatic payout. UM. What they did then was they 623 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: would go to another part of the world and they 624 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: would open up a facility, a luan facility UM, so 625 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: a totally different entity would be issued ALAN based upon 626 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: in the papers of the bank, just the financial worthiness 627 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,919 Speaker 1: of the and of the corporation. So there was an 628 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: off book loan against the capitol. No auditor would be 629 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: able to link the two together. The loan proceeds would 630 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: then moved to yet a third, fourth, and fifth farm jurisdiction. 631 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: And the reason for that is any time the US 632 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: government or any government wants to try to get bank 633 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 1: records in a jurisdiction, they've got to go through the 634 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,240 Speaker 1: legal process that takes a very very long period of time. 635 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: If you've got a string of Luxembourg, Lippenstein, Switzerland, France 636 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: and Panama that you've got to get get through UM, 637 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,839 Speaker 1: the theory is that it will take him fifteen years 638 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: to get through all that stuff. So now the money 639 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: it leads the loan facility, it winds up going to Panama. 640 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: UH was at that stage put into a checking account 641 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: and then based upon UM. Their preference was based upon 642 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: oral instructions, payouts would be made to different accounts in 643 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,800 Speaker 1: parts of the world that we're controlled by the cartel. 644 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: Of course, their accounts were opened up in the name 645 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: of nominees um and then those would be moved through 646 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: other accounts. So you know, there was a long, long 647 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: line of of bridges that had to be crossed before 648 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: you could ever work your way back to the original 649 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: cash deposit. And that is the first hand history of 650 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 1: operation see Chase from the Inside. We will be returning 651 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,760 Speaker 1: next week with part two of our interview with Mr Maser, 652 00:40:54,040 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: wherein he details the present and the future of banks 653 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: that practice money laundry in one way or another and 654 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: what if any consequences befall those organizations. Not to be 655 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: too much of a tease here, but we get into 656 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: some really interesting territory, including Mr Maser's perspective on the 657 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: War on drugs as a whole, on things like marijuana legalization, 658 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: where we're heading as a country in that direction. And 659 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 1: this is an authority on this stuff, and he's got 660 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: some really interesting things to say, so look forward to that. 661 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: But first, I feel like we would say but first, 662 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,320 Speaker 1: very often as we're setting this stuff up. But first, 663 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: this is the part of the show where we would 664 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 1: typically do a shout out corner. However, we're going to 665 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 1: do something a little different today. We're going to have 666 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: and in the news segment because something popped up recently, 667 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 1: probably on your news feeds, if you participate in social media, 668 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,800 Speaker 1: maybe you have seen a bunch of people walking around, 669 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: staring at their phones even more so than usual, running 670 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: into walls, perhaps tripping over park benches, stopping cars in 671 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: the street, any number of bizarro scenarios. No, my friends, 672 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: it is not the zombie apocalypse. It is, in fact, 673 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: the gaming craze. Dare I say of our generation? App wise, 674 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,280 Speaker 1: Pokemon Go, pomon Go. I've been looking forward to it, honestly. 675 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm into that stuff. So you know, so, uh, what, 676 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,840 Speaker 1: what the blue blazes? What the smali Shenanigans? What the 677 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: heck is Pokemon Go? If you never heard of it 678 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: or played it before, which would be rather astounding if 679 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 1: this is the first time you're hearing about it. But 680 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 1: it's an augmented reality game. It's an app that you 681 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: get on your smart device and it uses your geo 682 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: location as well as a lot of other information that's 683 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,720 Speaker 1: there resides within your phone, your accounts, your Google account. Uh, 684 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 1: just to know exactly where you are, where you're going, 685 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,879 Speaker 1: where the Pokemon exists around you in the real world. Matt, 686 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,959 Speaker 1: You've got to catch them all. It's you take take 687 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 1: my information, Just give me Pokemon. Just put a Squirtle 688 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: in my kitchen. That's all I ever wanted. That's you 689 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: said that the day we met you, Like, I just 690 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: want I could just have a squirtl in my kitchen. 691 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: I would be happy, man. But seriously, now I have 692 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: a seven year old, which is my excuse for playing 693 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: the game, you know, ye, Now, honestly, it's a it's 694 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: a it's a very thin um disguise for the fact 695 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:31,440 Speaker 1: that I am a bit of a nerd for this 696 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,439 Speaker 1: kind of stuff as well. But yeah, we played it, 697 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's it's one of these situations we 698 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 1: talked about in the past with privacy, with buying and 699 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,839 Speaker 1: selling of your personal information. You submit to it, you know, 700 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: on Facebook. It's like, I want my news feed. I 701 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 1: want to be able to have all this great free 702 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,720 Speaker 1: stuff take my information. I know that's a very odd 703 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 1: opinion to have me being on a conspiracy podcast, but 704 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: I really am just like, just just have it. It's fine, 705 00:43:54,719 --> 00:44:00,439 Speaker 1: you're gonna take it anyway. But also would be it's 706 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: similar to the secondhand smoking argument because when people are 707 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: walking around, so you think about Google Earth, for instance, 708 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: Google Earth did second hand compromising of people, possibly in 709 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: terms of the information that was available on you know, 710 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: street view things like that, but still that's a public place. 711 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: The street is a public domain sort of situation. One 712 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:32,240 Speaker 1: thing that Google and other companies of this nature couldn't 713 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: do as easily is get into buildings have a Google 714 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: floor view. Right, But now this stuff that's being captured 715 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,800 Speaker 1: on camera every time somebody chases a char rezard or whatever, 716 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,760 Speaker 1: it is going somewhere, right, So the second hand smoke 717 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 1: in this situation would be let's say one of our coworkers. 718 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: Name a coworker who wouldn't like this. Jonathan Strickland, he 719 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: would love Scott Benjamin. Scott Benjamin. Yeah, Scott Benjamin, the 720 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,400 Speaker 1: man with no Gmail address by the way, he okay, 721 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: So Scott Benjamin, one of the co hosts of our 722 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,840 Speaker 1: vehicle show Car Stuff. Scott Benjamin would probably never sign 723 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: on to compromise the information on on his phone or 724 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 1: in whatever accounts he has floating out there in the cloud. However, 725 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: if say Jonathan Strickland is walking around hunting Pokemon, then 726 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: the camera feed and the audio feed that his app 727 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: is using could easily capture Scott Benjamin sits here during 728 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,319 Speaker 1: this time of day to this time of day. Now, 729 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 1: of course that's a somewhat of an extremist view that 730 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: someone would care where a single person sits for a 731 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: few hours every day, but it's generated a lot of concern, 732 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: and we'd like to give a shout out to a 733 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,800 Speaker 1: couple of folks in particular who sent some information about 734 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,720 Speaker 1: this our way or asked about it. Yes, and Nicole 735 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: Harris and Rob Phillips both were they had they were 736 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: on the cusp, They knew what was going on, and 737 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: they reached out to us immediately and said that we 738 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,399 Speaker 1: should cover this. And there it actually was referencing a 739 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,879 Speaker 1: pretty cool article on black Bag, which is Gawker's kind 740 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: of conspiracy type blog. And um, the most interesting thing 741 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,239 Speaker 1: from this article to me is the fact that the 742 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 1: company that developed Pokemon Go as a company called Neantic, 743 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,400 Speaker 1: which was founded by a guy named John Hanker. I 744 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 1: think I'm pronouncing that right. Might just be hank Um. 745 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: And he also founded a company called Keyhole that specializes 746 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:51,839 Speaker 1: in geo positioning location software. Now Google Earth uses key 747 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: Holes technology. As far as I'm aware, they absorbed Keyhole 748 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: and likely folded some of the research and technology that 749 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 1: company had done in to Google Earth. But there's one 750 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: more step, and long time listeners you might recognize this 751 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:09,960 Speaker 1: next one. That's right. Keyhole got a pretty sizeable amount 752 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,920 Speaker 1: of funding from a firm called in q Tel. This 753 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: is a firm that we have mentioned several times on 754 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: this show, and we talked about the FBI and other 755 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: front agencies or front companies that agencies use UH to 756 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: put forward new technologies, emerging technologies. They'll get money from 757 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 1: places like in q Tel injected into let's say our 758 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,640 Speaker 1: company that's looking into geo, you know, GPS technology, and 759 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 1: then they're like, hey, now we've got a flower that 760 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: we created from this soil. And here's the thing. I'm 761 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,719 Speaker 1: joking mainly when I say I'm being a bit nihilistic 762 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,879 Speaker 1: and saying give me my squirtle, take my information. I'm 763 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,600 Speaker 1: fine with it. I don't really feel that way exactly. 764 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: I just kind of feel like we are living in 765 00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 1: a situation where we are being monitored, and it's almost 766 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: like either do you live in fear and panic all 767 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 1: the time or you just kind of accept it and 768 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: move on with your life and you know, enjoy the 769 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,400 Speaker 1: free stuff that that allows you. Or are those the 770 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 1: only two choices? Maybe not. And that's a good point, Matt. 771 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: But what this makes me think of is um There 772 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 1: was a great interview with Edward Snowden on Vice recently 773 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,160 Speaker 1: where he was showing you how to disconnect the cameras 774 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,839 Speaker 1: in your iPhone and all of the microphones and kind 775 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: of showing you where the different chips were and all 776 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 1: this stuff, and he made a wonderful point where he 777 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,800 Speaker 1: was sort of like, yeah, I mean, now, okay, really 778 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,880 Speaker 1: it's not super nefarious what's being done with this information. 779 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 1: You know, no one is being UM monitored in any 780 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 1: kind of nefarious way, No one is being targeted because 781 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: of any of this stuff. It's just the technology is there. 782 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 1: But what happens if we have a regime change where 783 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 1: all of a sudden we're in more of a totalitarian 784 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 1: system and all of a sudden the man or woman 785 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: in charge flips the switch and decides to really start 786 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,880 Speaker 1: using this against us right. And also it could be 787 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,319 Speaker 1: something a little more insidious, a progression by degree. So 788 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,840 Speaker 1: for instance, what if instead of a switch being flipped, 789 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:15,840 Speaker 1: it becomes a matter of insurance rates changing for someone. 790 00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 1: Because the privacy agreement in Pokemon Go does explicitly allow 791 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: the selling of this data or the transmission of this 792 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:28,319 Speaker 1: data to a third party, it's basically, ah, we'll do 793 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:32,359 Speaker 1: what we want and good luck finding a squirrel sort 794 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 1: of agreement. So this does mean that if, if, if 795 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:40,840 Speaker 1: they wished, the makers of Pokemon Go, could uh take 796 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:46,440 Speaker 1: your geolocation data. Let's say you're at let's say you're 797 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:52,040 Speaker 1: always at some crazy place. What's a crazy place to be? 798 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 1: Crazy Town, Crazy Atlanta. Isn't there a restaurant called Let's 799 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,400 Speaker 1: say you're at a place called Crazy Atlanta Town and 800 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:07,920 Speaker 1: it's a known drugged in and uh, your information about 801 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,160 Speaker 1: that is is sent out and maybe your car insurance 802 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: folks say, well, statistically, because we know that this person 803 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: is a Crazy Atlanta Town, the notorious drugg Den bar, 804 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,520 Speaker 1: then their insurance rate is going to go up because 805 00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,560 Speaker 1: we can't say that they're taking drugs and driving or whatever. 806 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,840 Speaker 1: But they're there for two hours between one and uh, 807 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:34,480 Speaker 1: between one and three am every night and they're driving 808 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:39,480 Speaker 1: home after that. So this, I mean, is this substantiated? 809 00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Is it possible? Yes? But is 810 00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,239 Speaker 1: it probable? That's a whole another bag of badgers. So 811 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,880 Speaker 1: we want to know what you guys think. Is Pokemon 812 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,759 Speaker 1: Go is an example of a r that's just a 813 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,560 Speaker 1: game changer, teaching us the capabilities of this amazing technology 814 00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:03,800 Speaker 1: we hold or is it something a little bit more perfidious? 815 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,640 Speaker 1: Is it something a little bit disingenuous? Uh? And do 816 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 1: you play Pokemon Go? Also, what do you think about 817 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,040 Speaker 1: all this stuff that Robert Maser was talking about in 818 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:17,400 Speaker 1: in this interview about banks and just taking money, just 819 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 1: taking billions of dollars of drug dealers money and just 820 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:26,160 Speaker 1: converting it because they make a huge profit and they 821 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,920 Speaker 1: don't really get in trouble for it. Yes, let us 822 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,719 Speaker 1: know what you think about all of the above. You 823 00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,040 Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook and Twitter where we are 824 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,520 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff. You can also find us on Instagram speaking 825 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:45,160 Speaker 1: of privacy violations. Conspiracy Stuff Show. And that's the end 826 00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,560 Speaker 1: of this classic episode. If you have any thoughts or 827 00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,520 Speaker 1: questions about this episode, you can get into contact with 828 00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,680 Speaker 1: us in a number of different ways. One of the 829 00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,560 Speaker 1: best is to give us a call. Our number is 830 00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,719 Speaker 1: one eight three three std w y t K. If 831 00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,520 Speaker 1: you don't want to do that, you can send us 832 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,759 Speaker 1: a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i 833 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:09,480 Speaker 1: heart radio dot com. Stuff they don't want you to 834 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,279 Speaker 1: know is a production of I heart Radio. For more 835 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,080 Speaker 1: podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 836 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:18,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.