WEBVTT - #126 Jason Flom with Amanda Knox in Times of COVID 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.680 Welcome to a brand new mini series, Wrongful Conviction with 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:10.959 Jason Flamm. In the time of COVID. You know, we're 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:14.400 moving into our second month since this was declared a pandemic, 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.720 and many of us have been isolating for just as 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.480 long or even longer. Being away from our loved ones 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:25.119 is painful. Let's be honest, Being without physical touch just 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:28.920 playing sucks and there's only so much that video conferencing 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.960 can do to fill that void. So my team and 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.000 I have been reaching out to the experts our wrongfully 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:37.960 convicted community for advice on how to cope with the 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:42.360 dark side of isolation. Last week, we spoke with Damien 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:44.360 Eccles of the West Memphis three, and if you haven't 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.519 had a chance, I strongly recommend listening to his advice 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.600 about focusing on the things that you do have control over, 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:56.680 like scheduling, self improvement, exercise, art, literature, and most importantly, 0:00:57.160 --> 0:00:59.880 holding on to your sense of humor through the darkness. 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:03.120 This week, we'll talk to a woman who is at 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:06.679 the center of an international scandal when she was demonized 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:09.600 in the media all while trying to navigate a legal 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.959 system in a language that was foreign to her. Eventually 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:15.880 she was sentenced to twenty six years in an Italian 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.680 prison for a crime she simply didn't commit. She'll tell 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.600 us about how she's holding up now, her concerns for 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.640 all those isolating alone as well as the currently incarcerated, 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:27.600 and what she did to make the best use of 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.680 her time and to combat the absence of physical touch 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:33.720 while she was in prison. And you can hear her 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.080 entire story of triumph over tragedy in the first episode 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:39.760 of our second season of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Plum. 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.840 She's the host of Vice Media's Scarlet Letter Report and 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.200 the Truth About True Crime podcast, and she's someone that 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:53.000 I proudly referred to as my little sister, Amanda Knox uncoping. 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:53.920 In the time of COVID. 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.920 They have one of my absolute favorite human beings, someone 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.800 that I referred to as my little sister. Amanda Knox 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:08.679 is our guest today. 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.040 Hi Amanda, Hi big brother. 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:14.200 Welcome back to the show. 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:19.359 How are things with you during this time of COVID, 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:21.040 let's just call it, how are things with you? 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:21.640 And Chris? 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:26.680 Well, we are very fortunate compared to a lot of people, 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:31.880 even within our own family. You know, Chris and I haven't. 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:33.880 Had to change our lifestyles all that much. 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:37.800 We've already work from home, so we're used to being 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:41.400 in that self disciplined rhythm. We're used to feeling a 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:45.760 little caged up. We are healthy. We have not lost 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:50.200 our jobs. We cannot say the same for everyone in 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:55.280 our family. We have friends who have definitely lost their jobs. 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:58.040 There are a number of people in our family who 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.280 are at high risk. I'm thinking particularly of my oma, 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.160 who is in her eighties and needs to go to 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.320 the hospital in a few weeks for heart surgery. 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:13.520 So it's really a difficult. 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:20.519 Time knowing how fragile we all are and having that reinforced, 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:26.880 even if Chris and I personally are. 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:26.600 Very, very fortunate. 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.400 Like on the phone the other day, Jason, you said 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:33.480 you're lucky to be quarantined with your partner, and I 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:37.080 couldn't agree more. I have friends who don't have that privilege, 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:42.000 and I understand what it means to not have loving, 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.480 caring touch for a long, extended period of time. 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.920 That's one of the things that I find the hardest 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:54.520 to comprehend is when someone like you was in the situation. 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.200 You were in. There. 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.840 You are in a tiny cell in a foreign country. 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:05.760 You really can't be more alone. And as you said, 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:10.680 for years, you went without a friendly or loving touch 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:12.800 from any other human being, right, And how did you 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:14.920 cope with that? And what can we learn from that 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:16.839 experience for people who are alone? 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:17.080 Now? 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:22.960 You know, my experience of it was it almost happened 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:26.440 without me realizing it, where I stopped being used to 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:33.080 people having loving touch towards me. I slowly, over the 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:38.960 course of time, grew unfamiliar with human contact. You know, 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:44.040 that wasn't a pat down, a strip search, or a 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.240 potential threat from another inmate. 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:47.640 I learned. 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.400 Slowly that I was very alone, and that the only 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.360 touch that belonged to me, and the only thing that 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:59.320 belonged to me was my own and my own mind. 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.200 So I'm thinking a lot about that these days. You know, 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:09.720 I have friends who are struggling with that now, and 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.880 you know, not just people that I know in prison, 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.920 but I just have friends who don't have partners. And 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.080 I remember what it felt like and how much it 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:27.080 meant for someone to just hold your hand. And I deeply, 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:32.600 deeply feel and empathize with anyone out there, imprisoned or not, 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:37.440 who can't rely on that. So any insight that I 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:41.560 have for how to deal with that. One thing that 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.320 I did when I was in prison and I felt 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:50.040 very physically distant from people was when I wrote my 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:55.880 letters to people at home, I would have a picture 0:05:56.440 --> 0:06:00.960 of them in front of me, and I got so 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:02.920 lonely that it got to the point that I would 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.760 caress their faces in the picture like I would touch 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.760 the actual picture to feel like I was physically connecting 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:13.760 with them in some way. And that sounds crazy. A 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:15.960 lot of the things that I talk about when I 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.080 talk about surviving prison tactics make me sound like a 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:23.680 crazy person, but that did help. Another thing that helped 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:28.919 me was having a better understanding of my own body. 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.599 So in the same way that I stayed sane by 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:38.800 really feeding my mind and learning to express my thoughts 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:45.520 even just to myself through either journaling or reflection. I 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.560 think one thing that could greatly help people during this 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:54.080 time is to find indoor activities that get you engaged 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:58.080 with your own body. I cannot recommend yoga enough because 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:04.200 you don't need a lot of space, and by moving 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:09.520 through different poses, you discover muscles that you never knew existed. 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.200 And that process. 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:16.960 Of getting in touch with your own body can alleviate 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.160 the feeling of being out of touch with other people's bodies. 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.720 And you can find zoom classes online. There are great 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.280 resources on YouTube. A lot of people are sharing their 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:33.480 skills and wisdom out there, especially in the yoga realm, for. 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:37.600 So many people who are now stuck in, you know, 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.520 very small spaces relative to what they're used to anyway, 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:46.760 not relative to what you were used to, but the 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.360 walls maybe feeling like they're closing in. They have maybe 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.000 you know, numerous people that they're sharing their space with. 0:07:55.960 --> 0:08:00.360 You know, it's a recipe for people to go stir crazy. 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:02.760 But you had, you know. 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.760 Just thinking about the concrete walls and the gray and 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:11.280 the lack of creature comforts. But how did you I mean, 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.720 you were flung into this situation, not of your own making. 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.520 You were facing twenty six. 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.200 Years of this. 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.240 So for you, what were some of the things that 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.680 besides yoga or caressing the photos? 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.600 How did you adjust? I mean, how did you keep 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:35.480 from just bouncing off the walls. 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:39.320 Over the course of my imprisonment, I was either in 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.080 a cell with one other person or a cell with 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.720 four other people, and I learned what it was like 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.880 to navigate a small space with lots of people, and 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.760 also an even smaller place with just one other person. 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:54.520 When we are in. 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.800 Close quarters with each other, we all need to learn 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:03.760 to understand each other's boundaries and needs and to come 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:08.680 up with compromises and routines that we can rely on, 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:11.920 so that at the very least there's something that we 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:17.360 have control over. The thing that's really difficult about this 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:22.080 time of coronavirus for all of us is the uncertainty. 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:25.920 We don't know when it's going to be over. We 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.560 don't know what the world is going to look like 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:33.839 once it is over, and we're sitting here in our 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:41.560 small spaces feeling very powerless and out of control, like 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.680 we don't have control over our own lives. So what 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:49.000 I learned to do, and something that the prison environment 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.280 kind of facilitates for you, is you don't really get 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:53.720 to determine. 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.959 What the routine is. You know, when you're in a. 0:09:55.920 --> 0:10:00.760 Prison cell, lunch comes. At the time that lunch comes, 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.320 you don't have control over that. You don't have control 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:08.120 over when dinner comes. What you do have are many, many, 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:13.240 many many hours at a time in a small space 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.680 where you have limited abilities of what you can do. 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.520 And one thing that I did in a big cell 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.280 or a small cell was I tried to think of 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:29.400 how I could make this day worth living, because I 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:36.160 was always having that conversation with myself where my time 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.640 was the thing that was being taken from me, and 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.880 was there any way that I could salvage my time 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.640 in a meaningful way so that it made living worth it? 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:53.480 And very often that meant that I was doing a 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:57.120 heck of a lot of reading. I was studying languages, 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.600 not just to try to become fluent in attack for 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.720 my own survival's sake, but also for the joy of 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.920 learning languages. The one thing that I think that people 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:10.400 are really dealing with right now that I didn't have 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:14.240 to deal with prison, and that I think is both 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:18.840 a blessing and a curse, is you know, in prison, 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:22.559 one of the hardest things to do is to find 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:28.640 reason to be purposeful. It's hard when you are removed 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.560 from society and told that you're a worthless human being, 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.320 less than a human being that doesn't have anything to 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.040 offer society, to then get up every day and say 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.280 I'm going to do something purposeful. I'm going to learn 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:46.600 something because I'm worth something, and my mind through exercise 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:47.839 has potential. 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.840 Today, people in quarantine may. 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.600 Be struggling with wondering when their next meal is going 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:59.959 to come, how they can keep earning and have patent 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:05.200 in the world when the source of their income and 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.640 the way that they have spent their time has been 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:09.680 removed from them. 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:12.360 You know, it's one. 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:16.200 Thing to say, use this time to like learn a 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.560 new skill, but some people don't have the ability to 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.040 learn a new skill when they're taking care of their 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:25.319 children or they're trying to figure out how they're going 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.960 to get a job in this economy. Not all of 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.560 us have the privilege of finally getting to read that 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.760 book that's been on the shelf for ages and ages 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:39.440 and ages, And like, the one thing that I can 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.480 say is, at the end of the day, there's only 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.960 so much you can do. So at the start of 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:51.040 the day, at any given day, you can think through 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:53.720 what it is that you're able to do to solve 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.920 the problems you have. And then once you've moved through 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.600 all those motions that you can literally do in a 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.520 single day, don't beat yourself up because you can't do 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:11.240 anything more. Let yourself be at peace with the fact 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:15.760 that you've done everything that you can do. That's something 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.520 that I had to live with every day, was, you know, 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.040 wishing that I could do so much more and trying 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.599 to give myself a break when at the end of 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:28.760 the day, I just I was still stuck there. 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:30.600 I was still trapped. 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.440 But I had written a letter to my mom, I 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.640 had done three hundred sit ups, and that was what 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:46.240 I could accomplish. 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:56.720 Let's talk about art, music, literature. Were there particular pieces 0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:00.800 of music or books or anything from the creative space 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:05.560 that really helped you then or that are really helpful 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.360 that other people might find helpful now even a even 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.120 a special movie or what? 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:10.560 What? 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:12.640 What has fed my soul and what is feeding my 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:19.120 soul today? Absolutely so, without a doubt. And I wonder 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.520 if you could guess what my favorite book was in prison? 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:24.520 Do you do you have any guess? 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:25.920 Oh? 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:29.840 Wait, I'm going to make a guess. I mean, I 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.080 could say Jess Mercy, or I could say something much more. 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:36.520 You know, I don't know what's coming to mind. I 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.440 mean Jonathan Livingston Seagull. I don't know what. Tell me. 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:44.600 I did read that my favorite favorite book in prison 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:52.680 was The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and and. 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:58.400 I have to say that, like then and now, I. 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:03.560 Recommend any piece of literature or film or series or 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.520 music that has world building. 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:09.400 Built within it. 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:14.160 I have a genuine appreciation for someone who can imagine 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.480 worlds and galaxies and create new rules for them and 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:23.640 for me. Because I'm so deeply involved with my work 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.720 with really sad, serious stuff, the kind of stuff that 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:32.760 you read about in Just Mercy. For my own sanity's sake, 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:38.160 I try to counterbalance that with a combination of British 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:45.280 humor and weird Al. So I'm a big, huge fan 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:49.280 of weird Al. I love someone who's willing to be 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:56.280 silly and absurd and create this whole other alternate reality 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:58.600 to the one that we're sitting in that is just 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:00.000 a lot more fun. 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:04.840 What weird Al should I be checking out. I'm really 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.520 not that familiar. Other than his hit songs, I don't 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:08.880 really know much of it. 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:14.880 Oh my gosh, Wow, his albums are so solid. Honestly, 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.960 I would love for you to see his music videos 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:22.160 because he's also such an incredible performer. He has an 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.800 amazing presence, and since we do have access to the Internet, 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:33.040 unlike in prison, we can enjoy that. So, I mean, 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:38.200 white and Nerdy is so funny, and he's just aware 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:43.000 of himself in a way that gives me hope for humanity, 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:48.200 where he can make fun of himself and the world 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:54.080 by creating these alternate realities in the same way Hitchhiker's 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.440 Guide to the Galaxy was this huge escape for me 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:01.520 in prison, where I would be totally sad sitting on 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.879 my cot in the prison, and I would just stick 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.919 ear plugs in and stick my nose in that book 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.400 and find myself giggling despite myself. 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:13.600 It's funny. Just reminded me. 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:15.719 I don't know why, but thinking about weird Al reminded 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:16.240 me of a song. 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:17.000 I had to look it. 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.400 Up to see who it was by, but I don't 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:21.920 know if you've ever heard, there's a wonderful video called 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:27.440 Everyday Normal Guy by I don't know that one John Lahoy. 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.600 It's sort of a play on rap. He's basically taking 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.760 the piss out of himself and so he talks about, 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.000 you know, the lyric start off of just a regular, 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.760 everyday normal guy, nothing special about me, motherfucker. 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:42.960 You know. 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:44.480 He probably learned from weird Al. 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:46.679 If I had to guess, I mean, weird Al is 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:50.439 the source of all hilarious inspiration in terms of the music. 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.760 I think Lonely Island and even Fly to the Concords. 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:58.959 Everyone is inspired by weird Al and he he's just 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:03.200 a nice guy who who is willing to be silly 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:05.080 for our benefit. 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.840 So I feel like we've covered a lot of ground 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.119 here and now I guess all this really left is 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:23.919 for me to say, you know, thank you again for 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:28.240 making time to do this. And I always. 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:32.639 Of course Jason always, it always makes me feel better 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:33.840 to talk to my big brother. 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.280 Oh well, I you know, I don't know what to say. 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:39.040 I'm just gonna get all choked up here in a minute. 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:44.280 But so I'm going to thank everyone for listening. Of course, 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.640 don't tune out yet, because the best is yet to come. 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:49.480 Once again, have my hands in the in the prayer 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:51.000 position by my heart as I say this. 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:53.240 Thank you just for being. 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.439 You and for being a part of my life and 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.399 for sharing with our audience. It means the world to me. 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.560 And now the floor as yours. I'm just going to 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:06.399 sit back and listen. So Amanda Knox for words of wisdom. 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:10.159 So I know that, like right now, this time is 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:14.840 a period that's particularly frustrating because everyone is reacting differently 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:21.239 to this pandemic. Some people are really aware of it 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.280 and embracing all of the things that need to be 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.879 done to protect themselves from it. A lot of people 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:31.880 are in denial about it and everything on that spectrum. 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:33.959 And the one thing that I try to keep in 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:39.000 mind when I am thinking about this is a lot 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.320 of people are not doing the right thing in response 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.679 to what is happening, just like a lot of people 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:50.600 are making wrongful convictions happen, and you know a lot 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:54.040 of those people are doing so with malicious content, but. 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:55.479 A lot of people aren't. 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.920 A lot of people are scared, a lot of people 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:03.639 are being fed bad information, a lot of people are 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:08.159 in denial, and there's a lot of psychological factors that 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:12.679 are going on as people are processing this very very 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:19.560 difficult time. And my one recommendation for everyone going through 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.199 this as they're interacting with people in the world is 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:24.840 to remember that like kindness does go a long way. 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.560 That doesn't mean not holding people accountable or not calling 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.480 people out who are doing the wrong thing, but remembering 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:37.280 that it's not a good versus evils equation. It's humans 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:41.159 being dumb, which we all are at least that's how 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:41.879 I feel about it. 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:47.399 Yeah, we all are dumb to some varying degrees, and I, 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:51.040 you know, I recognize it in myself. 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:52.960 It's funny, but yes, we all have. 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:56.200 Our we all of our blind spots, and we all 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:58.600 are we all have our like. 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:00.360 I look the. 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.199 World and I see like I ask myself, why do 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.840 people make these huge mistakes that have impacts on other 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:10.280 people's lives? And I can't believe that the vast majority 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:14.600 of them are sitting there cackling away thinking that they're 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.439 doing something horrible to someone. I think a lot of 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:22.880 people are trying to do what they think is right 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:28.720 without recognizing that they aren't acknowledging all of the information 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.359 available to them, and the vast majority of them are 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:36.399 being selfish, but being selfish in a very human way. 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:42.600 That really comes down to fear and denial. And the 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:48.359 way that you combat that, I've found is by seeing 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:51.959 where it's coming from but also calling it what it is, 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:56.000 which is the person across from you is not an 0:21:56.040 --> 0:22:01.720 evil person. They're just a person, if that makes any sense. 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:04.720 It's kind of a big topic that I think about 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.320 a lot. When I think about prosecutors and when I 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:12.800 think about investigators, I'm always trying to really see the 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:13.800 person across from. 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.080 Me who is so wrong. 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:21.919 And yet not succumb to a thinking that doesn't actually 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:25.040 help me engage with them and fix the problem. So 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:30.480 I don't know, I guess that's my plug for being 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:36.400 ever thoughtful and having compassion even for those who don't 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:37.280 seem to deserve it. 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:39.280 Be kind. 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:43.520 The first step to knowing yourself is being kind to yourself, 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:48.880 and that then leads you to be your best self. 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.840 This is a time that is very difficult for everyone 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:54.679 to be their best self, but you can do it. 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:56.480 Love you. 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:06.359 Well, right or giving a flat for that one? Wow, 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:11.320 this is really It's always a great experience speaking with Amanda, 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:15.440 but that was particularly meaningful for me because I'm going 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:17.560 through the same things, some of the same things that 0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:22.240 many of you are going through. And to hear Amanda 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:26.439 talk about how she almost created her own version of 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:31.600 FaceTime by using photographs of people she loved and caressing 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:36.200 those photographs, I mean, wow, that really puts things in 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:37.240 perspective for me. 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:39.680 Amanda. 0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:43.399 I just feel privileged to be able to be a 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:47.200 part of helping you help others by sharing your story. 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:51.800 And before we sign off from me and everyone on 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.760 the Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm team and members of 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:59.560 our extended family, I want to extend our heartfelt thanks 0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:04.239 to our healthcare providers, essential workers and first responders, and 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:08.120 everyone who's keeping our society going. 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:09.000 Thank you. 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:14.920 In the meantime, I hope you've been listening to false 0:24:14.920 --> 0:24:17.840 confession experts Laura and I writer and Steve Drisen as 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:20.639 they enlighten all of us about how the hell so 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:24.800 many people would ever admit to crimes that they didn't commit, 0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:28.320 and stay tuned for our new season of Ronful Conviction 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:31.960 with Jason Flomm coming up in May. Next week, we're 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.360 talking to the one and only nick Yaris and if 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:37.320 you want to get a head start on his story, 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:41.040 we released a two parter season nine, episode. 0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:43.160 Five that will blow your mind. 0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:48.879 So come back for more alternative perspective on living in 0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:52.000 the time of COVID from someone who's been to hell 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:58.359 and back. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:00.520 wherever you get your podcasts. 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:03.000 It really helps. And I'm a proud. 0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:05.200 Donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:08.720 join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 0:25:08.800 --> 0:25:12.720 to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:15.639 to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:18.640 to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:21.280 The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:23.160 nominated composer Jay Ralph. 0:25:23.280 --> 0:25:23.800