Speaker 1: Welcome to a brand new mini series, Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 1: Jason Flamm. In the time of COVID. You know, we're
Speaker 1: moving into our second month since this was declared a pandemic,
Speaker 1: and many of us have been isolating for just as
Speaker 1: long or even longer. Being away from our loved ones
Speaker 1: is painful. Let's be honest, Being without physical touch just
Speaker 1: playing sucks and there's only so much that video conferencing
Speaker 1: can do to fill that void. So my team and
Speaker 1: I have been reaching out to the experts our wrongfully
Speaker 1: convicted community for advice on how to cope with the
Speaker 1: dark side of isolation. Last week, we spoke with Damien
Speaker 1: Eccles of the West Memphis three, and if you haven't
Speaker 1: had a chance, I strongly recommend listening to his advice
Speaker 1: about focusing on the things that you do have control over,
Speaker 1: like scheduling, self improvement, exercise, art, literature, and most importantly,
Speaker 1: holding on to your sense of humor through the darkness.
Speaker 1: This week, we'll talk to a woman who is at
Speaker 1: the center of an international scandal when she was demonized
Speaker 1: in the media all while trying to navigate a legal
Speaker 1: system in a language that was foreign to her. Eventually
Speaker 1: she was sentenced to twenty six years in an Italian
Speaker 1: prison for a crime she simply didn't commit. She'll tell
Speaker 1: us about how she's holding up now, her concerns for
Speaker 1: all those isolating alone as well as the currently incarcerated,
Speaker 1: and what she did to make the best use of
Speaker 1: her time and to combat the absence of physical touch
Speaker 1: while she was in prison. And you can hear her
Speaker 1: entire story of triumph over tragedy in the first episode
Speaker 1: of our second season of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Plum.
Speaker 1: She's the host of Vice Media's Scarlet Letter Report and
Speaker 1: the Truth About True Crime podcast, and she's someone that
Speaker 1: I proudly referred to as my little sister, Amanda Knox uncoping.
Speaker 2: In the time of COVID.
Speaker 1: They have one of my absolute favorite human beings, someone
Speaker 1: that I referred to as my little sister. Amanda Knox
Speaker 1: is our guest today.
Speaker 3: Hi Amanda, Hi big brother.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: How are things with you during this time of COVID,
Speaker 1: let's just call it, how are things with you?
Speaker 2: And Chris?
Speaker 4: Well, we are very fortunate compared to a lot of people,
Speaker 4: even within our own family. You know, Chris and I haven't.
Speaker 3: Had to change our lifestyles all that much.
Speaker 4: We've already work from home, so we're used to being
Speaker 4: in that self disciplined rhythm. We're used to feeling a
Speaker 4: little caged up. We are healthy. We have not lost
Speaker 4: our jobs. We cannot say the same for everyone in
Speaker 4: our family. We have friends who have definitely lost their jobs.
Speaker 4: There are a number of people in our family who
Speaker 4: are at high risk. I'm thinking particularly of my oma,
Speaker 4: who is in her eighties and needs to go to
Speaker 4: the hospital in a few weeks for heart surgery.
Speaker 3: So it's really a difficult.
Speaker 4: Time knowing how fragile we all are and having that reinforced,
Speaker 4: even if Chris and I personally are.
Speaker 3: Very, very fortunate.
Speaker 4: Like on the phone the other day, Jason, you said
Speaker 4: you're lucky to be quarantined with your partner, and I
Speaker 4: couldn't agree more. I have friends who don't have that privilege,
Speaker 4: and I understand what it means to not have loving,
Speaker 4: caring touch for a long, extended period of time.
Speaker 1: That's one of the things that I find the hardest
Speaker 1: to comprehend is when someone like you was in the situation.
Speaker 2: You were in. There.
Speaker 1: You are in a tiny cell in a foreign country.
Speaker 1: You really can't be more alone. And as you said,
Speaker 1: for years, you went without a friendly or loving touch
Speaker 1: from any other human being, right, And how did you
Speaker 1: cope with that? And what can we learn from that
Speaker 1: experience for people who are alone?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 4: You know, my experience of it was it almost happened
Speaker 4: without me realizing it, where I stopped being used to
Speaker 4: people having loving touch towards me. I slowly, over the
Speaker 4: course of time, grew unfamiliar with human contact. You know,
Speaker 4: that wasn't a pat down, a strip search, or a
Speaker 4: potential threat from another inmate.
Speaker 3: I learned.
Speaker 4: Slowly that I was very alone, and that the only
Speaker 4: touch that belonged to me, and the only thing that
Speaker 4: belonged to me was my own and my own mind.
Speaker 4: So I'm thinking a lot about that these days. You know,
Speaker 4: I have friends who are struggling with that now, and
Speaker 4: you know, not just people that I know in prison,
Speaker 4: but I just have friends who don't have partners. And
Speaker 4: I remember what it felt like and how much it
Speaker 4: meant for someone to just hold your hand. And I deeply,
Speaker 4: deeply feel and empathize with anyone out there, imprisoned or not,
Speaker 4: who can't rely on that. So any insight that I
Speaker 4: have for how to deal with that. One thing that
Speaker 4: I did when I was in prison and I felt
Speaker 4: very physically distant from people was when I wrote my
Speaker 4: letters to people at home, I would have a picture
Speaker 4: of them in front of me, and I got so
Speaker 4: lonely that it got to the point that I would
Speaker 4: caress their faces in the picture like I would touch
Speaker 4: the actual picture to feel like I was physically connecting
Speaker 4: with them in some way. And that sounds crazy. A
Speaker 4: lot of the things that I talk about when I
Speaker 4: talk about surviving prison tactics make me sound like a
Speaker 4: crazy person, but that did help. Another thing that helped
Speaker 4: me was having a better understanding of my own body.
Speaker 4: So in the same way that I stayed sane by
Speaker 4: really feeding my mind and learning to express my thoughts
Speaker 4: even just to myself through either journaling or reflection. I
Speaker 4: think one thing that could greatly help people during this
Speaker 4: time is to find indoor activities that get you engaged
Speaker 4: with your own body. I cannot recommend yoga enough because
Speaker 4: you don't need a lot of space, and by moving
Speaker 4: through different poses, you discover muscles that you never knew existed.
Speaker 3: And that process.
Speaker 4: Of getting in touch with your own body can alleviate
Speaker 4: the feeling of being out of touch with other people's bodies.
Speaker 4: And you can find zoom classes online. There are great
Speaker 4: resources on YouTube. A lot of people are sharing their
Speaker 4: skills and wisdom out there, especially in the yoga realm, for.
Speaker 1: So many people who are now stuck in, you know,
Speaker 1: very small spaces relative to what they're used to anyway,
Speaker 1: not relative to what you were used to, but the
Speaker 1: walls maybe feeling like they're closing in. They have maybe
Speaker 1: you know, numerous people that they're sharing their space with.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a recipe for people to go stir crazy.
Speaker 2: But you had, you know.
Speaker 1: Just thinking about the concrete walls and the gray and
Speaker 1: the lack of creature comforts. But how did you I mean,
Speaker 1: you were flung into this situation, not of your own making.
Speaker 1: You were facing twenty six.
Speaker 2: Years of this.
Speaker 1: So for you, what were some of the things that
Speaker 1: besides yoga or caressing the photos?
Speaker 2: How did you adjust? I mean, how did you keep
Speaker 2: from just bouncing off the walls.
Speaker 4: Over the course of my imprisonment, I was either in
Speaker 4: a cell with one other person or a cell with
Speaker 4: four other people, and I learned what it was like
Speaker 4: to navigate a small space with lots of people, and
Speaker 4: also an even smaller place with just one other person.
Speaker 3: When we are in.
Speaker 4: Close quarters with each other, we all need to learn
Speaker 4: to understand each other's boundaries and needs and to come
Speaker 4: up with compromises and routines that we can rely on,
Speaker 4: so that at the very least there's something that we
Speaker 4: have control over. The thing that's really difficult about this
Speaker 4: time of coronavirus for all of us is the uncertainty.
Speaker 4: We don't know when it's going to be over. We
Speaker 4: don't know what the world is going to look like
Speaker 4: once it is over, and we're sitting here in our
Speaker 4: small spaces feeling very powerless and out of control, like
Speaker 4: we don't have control over our own lives. So what
Speaker 4: I learned to do, and something that the prison environment
Speaker 4: kind of facilitates for you, is you don't really get
Speaker 4: to determine.
Speaker 3: What the routine is. You know, when you're in a.
Speaker 4: Prison cell, lunch comes. At the time that lunch comes,
Speaker 4: you don't have control over that. You don't have control
Speaker 4: over when dinner comes. What you do have are many, many,
Speaker 4: many many hours at a time in a small space
Speaker 4: where you have limited abilities of what you can do.
Speaker 4: And one thing that I did in a big cell
Speaker 4: or a small cell was I tried to think of
Speaker 4: how I could make this day worth living, because I
Speaker 4: was always having that conversation with myself where my time
Speaker 4: was the thing that was being taken from me, and
Speaker 4: was there any way that I could salvage my time
Speaker 4: in a meaningful way so that it made living worth it?
Speaker 4: And very often that meant that I was doing a
Speaker 4: heck of a lot of reading. I was studying languages,
Speaker 4: not just to try to become fluent in attack for
Speaker 4: my own survival's sake, but also for the joy of
Speaker 4: learning languages. The one thing that I think that people
Speaker 4: are really dealing with right now that I didn't have
Speaker 4: to deal with prison, and that I think is both
Speaker 4: a blessing and a curse, is you know, in prison,
Speaker 4: one of the hardest things to do is to find
Speaker 4: reason to be purposeful. It's hard when you are removed
Speaker 4: from society and told that you're a worthless human being,
Speaker 4: less than a human being that doesn't have anything to
Speaker 4: offer society, to then get up every day and say
Speaker 4: I'm going to do something purposeful. I'm going to learn
Speaker 4: something because I'm worth something, and my mind through exercise
Speaker 4: has potential.
Speaker 3: Today, people in quarantine may.
Speaker 4: Be struggling with wondering when their next meal is going
Speaker 4: to come, how they can keep earning and have patent
Speaker 4: in the world when the source of their income and
Speaker 4: the way that they have spent their time has been
Speaker 4: removed from them.
Speaker 3: You know, it's one.
Speaker 4: Thing to say, use this time to like learn a
Speaker 4: new skill, but some people don't have the ability to
Speaker 4: learn a new skill when they're taking care of their
Speaker 4: children or they're trying to figure out how they're going
Speaker 4: to get a job in this economy. Not all of
Speaker 4: us have the privilege of finally getting to read that
Speaker 4: book that's been on the shelf for ages and ages
Speaker 4: and ages, And like, the one thing that I can
Speaker 4: say is, at the end of the day, there's only
Speaker 4: so much you can do. So at the start of
Speaker 4: the day, at any given day, you can think through
Speaker 4: what it is that you're able to do to solve
Speaker 4: the problems you have. And then once you've moved through
Speaker 4: all those motions that you can literally do in a
Speaker 4: single day, don't beat yourself up because you can't do
Speaker 4: anything more. Let yourself be at peace with the fact
Speaker 4: that you've done everything that you can do. That's something
Speaker 4: that I had to live with every day, was, you know,
Speaker 4: wishing that I could do so much more and trying
Speaker 4: to give myself a break when at the end of
Speaker 4: the day, I just I was still stuck there.
Speaker 3: I was still trapped.
Speaker 4: But I had written a letter to my mom, I
Speaker 4: had done three hundred sit ups, and that was what
Speaker 4: I could accomplish.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about art, music, literature. Were there particular pieces
Speaker 1: of music or books or anything from the creative space
Speaker 1: that really helped you then or that are really helpful
Speaker 1: that other people might find helpful now even a even
Speaker 1: a special movie or what?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 4: What has fed my soul and what is feeding my
Speaker 4: soul today? Absolutely so, without a doubt. And I wonder
Speaker 4: if you could guess what my favorite book was in prison?
Speaker 3: Do you do you have any guess?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Wait, I'm going to make a guess. I mean, I
Speaker 1: could say Jess Mercy, or I could say something much more.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know what's coming to mind. I
Speaker 1: mean Jonathan Livingston Seagull. I don't know what. Tell me.
Speaker 4: I did read that my favorite favorite book in prison
Speaker 4: was The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and and.
Speaker 3: I have to say that, like then and now, I.
Speaker 4: Recommend any piece of literature or film or series or
Speaker 4: music that has world building.
Speaker 3: Built within it.
Speaker 4: I have a genuine appreciation for someone who can imagine
Speaker 4: worlds and galaxies and create new rules for them and
Speaker 4: for me. Because I'm so deeply involved with my work
Speaker 4: with really sad, serious stuff, the kind of stuff that
Speaker 4: you read about in Just Mercy. For my own sanity's sake,
Speaker 4: I try to counterbalance that with a combination of British
Speaker 4: humor and weird Al. So I'm a big, huge fan
Speaker 4: of weird Al. I love someone who's willing to be
Speaker 4: silly and absurd and create this whole other alternate reality
Speaker 4: to the one that we're sitting in that is just
Speaker 4: a lot more fun.
Speaker 1: What weird Al should I be checking out. I'm really
Speaker 1: not that familiar. Other than his hit songs, I don't
Speaker 1: really know much of it.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, Wow, his albums are so solid. Honestly,
Speaker 4: I would love for you to see his music videos
Speaker 4: because he's also such an incredible performer. He has an
Speaker 4: amazing presence, and since we do have access to the Internet,
Speaker 4: unlike in prison, we can enjoy that. So, I mean,
Speaker 4: white and Nerdy is so funny, and he's just aware
Speaker 4: of himself in a way that gives me hope for humanity,
Speaker 4: where he can make fun of himself and the world
Speaker 4: by creating these alternate realities in the same way Hitchhiker's
Speaker 4: Guide to the Galaxy was this huge escape for me
Speaker 4: in prison, where I would be totally sad sitting on
Speaker 4: my cot in the prison, and I would just stick
Speaker 4: ear plugs in and stick my nose in that book
Speaker 4: and find myself giggling despite myself.
Speaker 2: It's funny. Just reminded me.
Speaker 1: I don't know why, but thinking about weird Al reminded
Speaker 1: me of a song.
Speaker 2: I had to look it.
Speaker 1: Up to see who it was by, but I don't
Speaker 1: know if you've ever heard, there's a wonderful video called
Speaker 1: Everyday Normal Guy by I don't know that one John Lahoy.
Speaker 1: It's sort of a play on rap. He's basically taking
Speaker 1: the piss out of himself and so he talks about,
Speaker 1: you know, the lyric start off of just a regular,
Speaker 1: everyday normal guy, nothing special about me, motherfucker.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: He probably learned from weird Al.
Speaker 4: If I had to guess, I mean, weird Al is
Speaker 4: the source of all hilarious inspiration in terms of the music.
Speaker 4: I think Lonely Island and even Fly to the Concords.
Speaker 4: Everyone is inspired by weird Al and he he's just
Speaker 4: a nice guy who who is willing to be silly
Speaker 4: for our benefit.
Speaker 1: So I feel like we've covered a lot of ground
Speaker 1: here and now I guess all this really left is
Speaker 1: for me to say, you know, thank you again for
Speaker 1: making time to do this. And I always.
Speaker 4: Of course Jason always, it always makes me feel better
Speaker 4: to talk to my big brother.
Speaker 1: Oh well, I you know, I don't know what to say.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna get all choked up here in a minute.
Speaker 1: But so I'm going to thank everyone for listening. Of course,
Speaker 1: don't tune out yet, because the best is yet to come.
Speaker 1: Once again, have my hands in the in the prayer
Speaker 1: position by my heart as I say this.
Speaker 2: Thank you just for being.
Speaker 1: You and for being a part of my life and
Speaker 1: for sharing with our audience. It means the world to me.
Speaker 1: And now the floor as yours. I'm just going to
Speaker 1: sit back and listen. So Amanda Knox for words of wisdom.
Speaker 4: So I know that, like right now, this time is
Speaker 4: a period that's particularly frustrating because everyone is reacting differently
Speaker 4: to this pandemic. Some people are really aware of it
Speaker 4: and embracing all of the things that need to be
Speaker 4: done to protect themselves from it. A lot of people
Speaker 4: are in denial about it and everything on that spectrum.
Speaker 4: And the one thing that I try to keep in
Speaker 4: mind when I am thinking about this is a lot
Speaker 4: of people are not doing the right thing in response
Speaker 4: to what is happening, just like a lot of people
Speaker 4: are making wrongful convictions happen, and you know a lot
Speaker 4: of those people are doing so with malicious content, but.
Speaker 3: A lot of people aren't.
Speaker 4: A lot of people are scared, a lot of people
Speaker 4: are being fed bad information, a lot of people are
Speaker 4: in denial, and there's a lot of psychological factors that
Speaker 4: are going on as people are processing this very very
Speaker 4: difficult time. And my one recommendation for everyone going through
Speaker 4: this as they're interacting with people in the world is
Speaker 4: to remember that like kindness does go a long way.
Speaker 4: That doesn't mean not holding people accountable or not calling
Speaker 4: people out who are doing the wrong thing, but remembering
Speaker 4: that it's not a good versus evils equation. It's humans
Speaker 4: being dumb, which we all are at least that's how
Speaker 4: I feel about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we all are dumb to some varying degrees, and I,
Speaker 1: you know, I recognize it in myself.
Speaker 2: It's funny, but yes, we all have.
Speaker 4: Our we all of our blind spots, and we all
Speaker 4: are we all have our like.
Speaker 3: I look the.
Speaker 4: World and I see like I ask myself, why do
Speaker 4: people make these huge mistakes that have impacts on other
Speaker 4: people's lives? And I can't believe that the vast majority
Speaker 4: of them are sitting there cackling away thinking that they're
Speaker 4: doing something horrible to someone. I think a lot of
Speaker 4: people are trying to do what they think is right
Speaker 4: without recognizing that they aren't acknowledging all of the information
Speaker 4: available to them, and the vast majority of them are
Speaker 4: being selfish, but being selfish in a very human way.
Speaker 4: That really comes down to fear and denial. And the
Speaker 4: way that you combat that, I've found is by seeing
Speaker 4: where it's coming from but also calling it what it is,
Speaker 4: which is the person across from you is not an
Speaker 4: evil person. They're just a person, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 4: It's kind of a big topic that I think about
Speaker 4: a lot. When I think about prosecutors and when I
Speaker 4: think about investigators, I'm always trying to really see the
Speaker 4: person across from.
Speaker 3: Me who is so wrong.
Speaker 4: And yet not succumb to a thinking that doesn't actually
Speaker 4: help me engage with them and fix the problem. So
Speaker 4: I don't know, I guess that's my plug for being
Speaker 4: ever thoughtful and having compassion even for those who don't
Speaker 4: seem to deserve it.
Speaker 3: Be kind.
Speaker 4: The first step to knowing yourself is being kind to yourself,
Speaker 4: and that then leads you to be your best self.
Speaker 4: This is a time that is very difficult for everyone
Speaker 4: to be their best self, but you can do it.
Speaker 4: Love you.
Speaker 1: Well, right or giving a flat for that one? Wow,
Speaker 1: this is really It's always a great experience speaking with Amanda,
Speaker 1: but that was particularly meaningful for me because I'm going
Speaker 1: through the same things, some of the same things that
Speaker 1: many of you are going through. And to hear Amanda
Speaker 1: talk about how she almost created her own version of
Speaker 1: FaceTime by using photographs of people she loved and caressing
Speaker 1: those photographs, I mean, wow, that really puts things in
Speaker 1: perspective for me.
Speaker 2: Amanda.
Speaker 1: I just feel privileged to be able to be a
Speaker 1: part of helping you help others by sharing your story.
Speaker 1: And before we sign off from me and everyone on
Speaker 1: the Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm team and members of
Speaker 1: our extended family, I want to extend our heartfelt thanks
Speaker 1: to our healthcare providers, essential workers and first responders, and
Speaker 1: everyone who's keeping our society going.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, I hope you've been listening to false
Speaker 1: confession experts Laura and I writer and Steve Drisen as
Speaker 1: they enlighten all of us about how the hell so
Speaker 1: many people would ever admit to crimes that they didn't commit,
Speaker 1: and stay tuned for our new season of Ronful Conviction
Speaker 1: with Jason Flomm coming up in May. Next week, we're
Speaker 1: talking to the one and only nick Yaris and if
Speaker 1: you want to get a head start on his story,
Speaker 1: we released a two parter season nine, episode.
Speaker 2: Five that will blow your mind.
Speaker 1: So come back for more alternative perspective on living in
Speaker 1: the time of COVID from someone who's been to hell
Speaker 1: and back. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: It really helps. And I'm a proud.
Speaker 1: Donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org
Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 2: Be sure to.
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Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is
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