Speaker 1: Welcome to a brand new mini series, Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 1: Jason flam In the time of COVID. You know, we're
Speaker 1: moving into our second month since this was declared a pandemic,
Speaker 1: and many of us have been isolating for just as
Speaker 1: long or even longer. Being away from our loved ones
Speaker 1: is painful. Let's be honest, Being without physical touch just
Speaker 1: playing sucks and there's only so much that video conferencing
Speaker 1: can do to fill that void. So my team and
Speaker 1: I have been reaching out to the experts are Wrongfully
Speaker 1: Convicted community for advice on how to cope with the
Speaker 1: dark side of isolation. Last week we spoke with Damian
Speaker 1: Echols of the West Memphis three, and if you haven't
Speaker 1: had a chance, I strongly recommend listening to his advice
Speaker 1: about focusing on the things that you do have control over,
Speaker 1: like scheduling, self improvement, exercise, art, literature, and most importantly,
Speaker 1: holding onto your sense of humor through the darkness. This week,
Speaker 1: we'll talk to a woman who was at the center
Speaker 1: of an international scandal when she was demonized in the media,
Speaker 1: all while trying to navigate a legal system in a
Speaker 1: language that was foreign to her. Eventually, she was sentenced
Speaker 1: to twenty six years in an Italian prison for a
Speaker 1: crime she simply didn't commit. She'll tell us about how
Speaker 1: she's holding up now, her concerns for all those isolating
Speaker 1: alone as well as the currently incarcerated, and what she
Speaker 1: did to make the best use of her time and
Speaker 1: to combat the absence of physical touch while she was
Speaker 1: in prison. And you can hear her entire story of
Speaker 1: triumph over tragedy in the first episode of our second
Speaker 1: season of Brownful Conviction with Jason Flom. She's the host
Speaker 1: of Vice Media's Scarlet Letter Report and The Truth About
Speaker 1: True Crime podcast, and she's someone that I proudly referred
Speaker 1: to as my little sister, Amanda Knox on coping in
Speaker 1: the time of COVID. They have one of my absolute
Speaker 1: favorite human beings, someone I referred to as my little sister.
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox is our guest today. Hi Amanda, Hi big brother,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. How are things with you
Speaker 1: during this time of COVID, let's just call it, how
Speaker 1: are things with you and Chris? Well, we are very
Speaker 1: fortunate compared to a lot of people, even within our
Speaker 1: own family. You know, Chris and I haven't had to
Speaker 1: change our lifestyles all that much. We've already worked from home,
Speaker 1: so we're used to being in that self disciplined rhythm.
Speaker 1: We're used to feeling a little caged up. We are healthy,
Speaker 1: we have not lost our jobs. We cannot say the
Speaker 1: same for everyone in our family. UM. We have friends
Speaker 1: who have definitely lost their jobs. UM. There are a
Speaker 1: number of people in our family who are at high risk. UM.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking particularly of my Oma, who is in her
Speaker 1: eighties and needs to go to the hospital in a
Speaker 1: few weeks for heart surgery. So it's really, UM a
Speaker 1: difficult time knowing how fragile we all are and having
Speaker 1: that reinforced, even if Chris and I personally are very
Speaker 1: very fortunate. Like on the phone the other day, Jason,
Speaker 1: you said you're lucky to be quarantined with your partner,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't agree more. I have friends who don't
Speaker 1: have that privilege, and I understand what it means to
Speaker 1: not have loving, caring touch for a long, extended period
Speaker 1: of time. That's one of the things that I find
Speaker 1: the hardest to comprehend is when someone like you was
Speaker 1: in the situation you were in there. You are in
Speaker 1: a tiny cell in a foreign country and you really
Speaker 1: can't be more alone. Um. And as you said, for years,
Speaker 1: you went without a friendly or loving touch from any
Speaker 1: other human being, right, And how did you cope with that?
Speaker 1: And what can we learn from that experience for people
Speaker 1: who are alone? Now? You know, my experience of it
Speaker 1: was it almost happened without me realizing it, where I
Speaker 1: stopped being used to people having loving touched towards me.
Speaker 1: I slowly, over the course of time, grew unfamiliar with
Speaker 1: human contact. You know, that wasn't a pat down, a
Speaker 1: strip search, or a potential threat from another inmate. I
Speaker 1: learned slowly that I was very alone, and that the
Speaker 1: only touch that belonged to me, and the only thing
Speaker 1: that belonged to me, um, was my own and my
Speaker 1: own mind. So I'm thinking a lot about that these days.
Speaker 1: You know, I have friends who are struggling with that now, um,
Speaker 1: And you know, not just people that I know in prison,
Speaker 1: but I just have friends who who don't have partners.
Speaker 1: And I remember what it felt like and how much
Speaker 1: it meant for someone to just hold your hand. And
Speaker 1: I deeply, deeply feel and empathize with anyone out there,
Speaker 1: imprisoned or not who can't rely on that, so any
Speaker 1: insight that I have for how to deal with that.
Speaker 1: One thing that I did um when I was in
Speaker 1: prison and I felt very physically distant from people was
Speaker 1: when I wrote my letters to people at home, I
Speaker 1: would have a picture of them in front of me,
Speaker 1: and I got so lonely that it got to the
Speaker 1: point that I would caress their faces in the picture
Speaker 1: like I would touch the actual picture to feel like
Speaker 1: I was physically connecting with them in some way. And
Speaker 1: that sounds crazy. A lot of the things that I
Speaker 1: talked about when I talk about surviving prison tactics make
Speaker 1: me sound like a crazy person, but that did help.
Speaker 1: Another thing that helped me was having a better understanding
Speaker 1: of my own body um so in the same way
Speaker 1: that I stayed sane by really feeding my mind and
Speaker 1: learning to express my thoughts, even just to myself um
Speaker 1: through either journaling or reflection. I think one thing that
Speaker 1: could greatly help people during this time is to find
Speaker 1: indoor activities that get you engaged with your own body.
Speaker 1: I cannot recommend yoga enough because you don't need a
Speaker 1: lot of space, and by moving through different poses, you
Speaker 1: discover muscles that you never knew existed, and that process
Speaker 1: of getting in touch with your own body can alleviate
Speaker 1: the feeling of being out of touch with other people's bodies.
Speaker 1: And you can find zoom classes online. There are great
Speaker 1: resources on YouTube. A lot of people are sharing their
Speaker 1: skills and wisdom out there, and especially in the yoga realm,
Speaker 1: for so many people who are now stuck in you know,
Speaker 1: very small spaces relative to what they're used to anyway,
Speaker 1: not relative to what you were used to. UM, but
Speaker 1: the walls maybe feeling like they're closing in. They have
Speaker 1: maybe you know, numerous people that they're sharing their space with. UM.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a recipe for people to go Stirk crazy,
Speaker 1: but you had you know, I'm just thinking about the
Speaker 1: concrete walls and the gray and the lack of creature comforts.
Speaker 1: But how did you I mean, you were flung into
Speaker 1: this situation not of your own making. You were facing
Speaker 1: twenty six years of this. So for you, what were
Speaker 1: some of the things that besides yoga or caressing the photos?
Speaker 1: How did you adjust? I mean, how did you keep
Speaker 1: from just bouncing off the walls. Over the course of
Speaker 1: my imprisonment, I was either in a cell with one
Speaker 1: other person, or a cell with four other people, And
Speaker 1: I learned what it was like to navigate a small
Speaker 1: space with lots of people and also an even smaller
Speaker 1: place with just one other person. When we are in
Speaker 1: close quarters with each other, we all need to learn
Speaker 1: to understand each other's boundaries and needs and to come
Speaker 1: up with compromises and routines that we can rely on,
Speaker 1: so that at the very least, there's something that we
Speaker 1: have control over. The thing that's really difficult about this
Speaker 1: time of coronavirus for all of us is the uncertainty.
Speaker 1: We don't know when it's going to be over. We
Speaker 1: don't know what the world is going to look like
Speaker 1: once it is over, and we're sitting here in our
Speaker 1: small spaces feeling very powerless and out of control, like
Speaker 1: we don't have control over our own lives. So what
Speaker 1: I learned to do, and something that the prison environment
Speaker 1: kind of facilitates for you, is you don't really get
Speaker 1: to determine what the routine is. You know, when you're
Speaker 1: in a prison cell, lunch comes. At the time that
Speaker 1: lunch comes, you don't have control over that. Um you
Speaker 1: don't know have control over when dinner comes. What you
Speaker 1: do have are many many, many many hours at a
Speaker 1: time in a small space where you have limited abilities
Speaker 1: of what you can do. And one thing that I
Speaker 1: did in a big cell or a small cell was
Speaker 1: I tried to think of how I could make this
Speaker 1: day worth living, because I was always having that conversation
Speaker 1: with myself where my time was the thing that was
Speaker 1: being taken from me, and was there any way that
Speaker 1: I could salvage my time in a meaningful way so
Speaker 1: that it made living worth it? And very often that
Speaker 1: meant that I was doing a heck of a lot
Speaker 1: of reading. I was studying languages, um, not just to
Speaker 1: try to become fluent in attack Alion for my own
Speaker 1: survivals sake, but also for the joy of learning languages.
Speaker 1: The one thing that I think that people are really
Speaker 1: dealing with right now that I didn't have to deal
Speaker 1: with prison, and that I think is both a blessing
Speaker 1: and a curse, is um. You know, in prison, one
Speaker 1: of the hardest things to do is to find reason
Speaker 1: to be purposeful. Um. It's hard when you are removed
Speaker 1: from society and told that you're a worthless human being,
Speaker 1: less than a human being that doesn't have anything to
Speaker 1: offer society to then get up every day and say
Speaker 1: I'm going to do something purposeful. I'm going to learn
Speaker 1: something because I'm worth something and my mind through exercise
Speaker 1: has potential. Today people in quarantine maybe struggling with wondering
Speaker 1: when their next meal is going to come, how they
Speaker 1: can keep earning and have pot nil in the world
Speaker 1: when the source of their income and the way that
Speaker 1: they have spent their time has been removed from them.
Speaker 1: You know, it's one thing to say, use this time
Speaker 1: to like learn a new skill, but some people don't
Speaker 1: have the ability to learn a new skill when they're
Speaker 1: taking care of their children or they're trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how they're going to get a job in this economy.
Speaker 1: Not all of us have the privilege of finally getting
Speaker 1: to read that book that's been on the shelf for
Speaker 1: ages and ages and ages, and like, the one thing
Speaker 1: that I can say is, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: there's only so much you can do. So at the
Speaker 1: start of the day, at any given day, you can
Speaker 1: think through what it is that you're able to do
Speaker 1: to solve the problems you have, and then once you've
Speaker 1: moved through all those motions that you can literally we
Speaker 1: do in a single day. Don't beat yourself up because
Speaker 1: you can't do anything more. Let yourself be at peace
Speaker 1: with the fact that you've done everything that you can do.
Speaker 1: That's something that I had to live with every day, was,
Speaker 1: you know, wishing that I could do so much more
Speaker 1: and trying to give myself a break when at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, I just I was still stuck there.
Speaker 1: I was still trapped. But I had written a letter
Speaker 1: to my mom, I had done three d sit ups,
Speaker 1: and that was what I could accomplish. Let's talk about art, music, literature. Um,
Speaker 1: were there particular pieces of music or books or anything
Speaker 1: from the creative space that really helped you then or
Speaker 1: that are really helpful that other people might find helpful now?
Speaker 1: Even a even a special movie or what? What? What
Speaker 1: has fed my soul and what is feeding my soul today? Um?
Speaker 1: Absolutely so um, without a doubt. And I wonder if
Speaker 1: you could guess what my favorite book was in prison?
Speaker 1: Do you do you have any guess? Oh wait, I'm
Speaker 1: going to make a guess. Um. I mean I could
Speaker 1: say just mercy, or I could say something much more. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know what's coming to mind. I
Speaker 1: mean Jonathan Livingston seagull. I don't know what tell me
Speaker 1: I did read that. Um. My favorite favorite book in
Speaker 1: prison was The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and um,
Speaker 1: and I have to say that, like then and now,
Speaker 1: I recommend any piece of literature or film or series
Speaker 1: or music that has world building built within it. I
Speaker 1: have a genuine appreciation for someone who can imagine worlds
Speaker 1: and galaxies and create new rules for them and for me.
Speaker 1: Because I'm so deeply involved with my work with really sad,
Speaker 1: serious stuff, um, the kind of stuff that you read
Speaker 1: about in Just Mercy. For my own sanity's sake, I
Speaker 1: try to counterbalance that with a combination of British humor
Speaker 1: and um, weird Al. So I'm I'm a big, huge
Speaker 1: fan of weird Al. I love someone who's willing to
Speaker 1: be silly and absurd and create this whole other alternate
Speaker 1: reality to the one that we're sitting in that is
Speaker 1: just a lot more fun. What weird Al should I
Speaker 1: be checking out? I'm really not that familiar. Other than
Speaker 1: his hit songs, I don't really know much. Oh my
Speaker 1: gosh wow. Um his albums are so solid. Honestly, I
Speaker 1: would love for you to see his music videos because
Speaker 1: he's also such an incredible performer. He has an amazing presence,
Speaker 1: and since we do have access to the internet, unlike
Speaker 1: in prison, UM, we can enjoy that. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: White and Nerdy is so funny, and he's just aware
Speaker 1: of himself in a way that gives me hope for humanity,
Speaker 1: where he can make fun of himself and the world
Speaker 1: by creating these alternate realities. Um. In the same way,
Speaker 1: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was this huge escape for
Speaker 1: me in prison, where I would be totally sad sitting
Speaker 1: on my cot in the prison, and I would just
Speaker 1: stick earplugs in and stick my nose in that book
Speaker 1: and find myself giggling despite myself. Um, it's funny. Just
Speaker 1: reminded me. I don't know why, but thinking about Weird
Speaker 1: Now reminded me of a song. I had to look
Speaker 1: it up to see who it was by, but I
Speaker 1: don't know if you've ever heard, there's a wonderful video
Speaker 1: called Everyday Normal Guy, Um John mohoy. It's sort of
Speaker 1: a play on on wrap. He's basically taking the piss
Speaker 1: out of himself. UM. And so he talks about you know,
Speaker 1: the lyric start off of just a regular, everyday normal guy,
Speaker 1: nothing special about me, motherfucker. You know he probably learned
Speaker 1: from weird Al if I had to guess, I mean,
Speaker 1: weird Al is the source of all hilarious inspiration in
Speaker 1: terms of the music. I think Lonely Island and even
Speaker 1: Fly to the Concords. Everyone is inspired by weird Al
Speaker 1: and he he's just a nice guy who who is
Speaker 1: willing to be silly for our benefit. So I feel
Speaker 1: like we've covered a lot of ground here and now
Speaker 1: I guess all this really left is for me to say,
Speaker 1: you know, thank you again for making time to do this.
Speaker 1: And I always, of course Jason always I it always
Speaker 1: makes me feel better to talk to my big brother. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know what to say. I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna get all choked up here in a minute. But
Speaker 1: so I'm going to thank everyone for listening. Of course,
Speaker 1: don't tune out yet, because the best is yet to come.
Speaker 1: Once again, my hands in the in the prayer position
Speaker 1: by my heart as I say this, Um, thank you
Speaker 1: just for being you and for being a part of
Speaker 1: my life and for sharing with our audience. It means
Speaker 1: the world to me. And now the floor is yours.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to sit back and listen, So Amanda
Speaker 1: Knox for words of wisdom. So I know that, like
Speaker 1: right now, this time is a period that's particularly frustrating
Speaker 1: because everyone is reacting differently to this pandemic. Some people
Speaker 1: are really aware of it and embracing all of the
Speaker 1: things that need to be done to protect themselves from it.
Speaker 1: A lot of people are in denial about it and
Speaker 1: and everything on that spectrum. And the one thing that
Speaker 1: I try to keep in mind when I am thinking
Speaker 1: about this is a lot of people are not doing
Speaker 1: the right thing in response to what is happening, just
Speaker 1: like a lot of people are making wrongful convictions happen,
Speaker 1: and you know a lot of those people are doing
Speaker 1: so with militian senttent, but a lot of people aren't.
Speaker 1: A lot of people are scared, a lot of people
Speaker 1: are being fed bad information, a lot of people are
Speaker 1: in denial, and there's a lot of psychological factors that
Speaker 1: are going on as people are processing this very very
Speaker 1: difficult time. And my one recommendation for everyone going through
Speaker 1: this as they're interacting with people in the world is
Speaker 1: to remember that like kindness does go a long way. Um,
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean not holding people accountable or not calling
Speaker 1: people out who are doing the wrong thing, but remembering
Speaker 1: that it's not a good versus evils equation. It's humans
Speaker 1: being dumb, which we all are at least that's how
Speaker 1: I feel about it. Yeah, we all are dumb to
Speaker 1: some varying degrees, and I, you know, I recognize it
Speaker 1: in myself. It's funny, but yes, we all have our
Speaker 1: we all have our blind spots, and we all are
Speaker 1: we all have our like I look at the world
Speaker 1: and I see Like I asked myself, why do people
Speaker 1: make these huge mistakes that have impacts on other people's lives?
Speaker 1: And I can't believe that the vast majority of them
Speaker 1: are sitting there cackling away thinking that they're doing something
Speaker 1: horrible to someone. I think a lot of people are
Speaker 1: trying to do what they think is right without recognizing
Speaker 1: that they aren't acknowledging all of the information available to them,
Speaker 1: and the vast majority of them are are being selfish,
Speaker 1: but being selfish in a very human way. That really
Speaker 1: comes down to fear and denial. And the way that
Speaker 1: you combat that, I found is by seeing where it's
Speaker 1: coming from, but also calling it what it is, which
Speaker 1: is the person across from you is not an evil person.
Speaker 1: They're just a person, if that makes any sense. It's
Speaker 1: kind of a big topic that I think about a
Speaker 1: lot when I think about prosecutors and when I think
Speaker 1: about investigators. Um, I'm always trying to really see the
Speaker 1: person across from me who is so wrong and yet
Speaker 1: not succumb to a thinking that doesn't actually help me
Speaker 1: engage with them and fix the problem. So I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess that's my my plug for being ever thoughtful
Speaker 1: and having compassion even for those who don't seem to
Speaker 1: deserve it. Be kind. The first step to knowing yourself
Speaker 1: is being kind to yourself, and that then leads you
Speaker 1: to be your best self. This is a time that
Speaker 1: is very difficult for everyone to be their best self,
Speaker 1: but you can do it. I love you, all right,
Speaker 1: rigid clap for that one. Wow. Just really It's always
Speaker 1: a great experience speaking with Amanda, but that was particularly
Speaker 1: meaningful for me because I'm going through the same things,
Speaker 1: some of the same things that many of you are
Speaker 1: going through, and to hear Amanda talk about how she
Speaker 1: almost created her own version of face time by using
Speaker 1: photographs of people she loved and caressing those photographs. I mean, wow,
Speaker 1: that really puts things in perspective for me. Um Amanda.
Speaker 1: I just feel privileged to be able to be a
Speaker 1: part of helping you help others by sharing your story.
Speaker 1: And before we sign off from me and everyone on
Speaker 1: the Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam team and members of
Speaker 1: our extended family, I want to extend our heartfelt thanks
Speaker 1: to our healthcare providers, essential workers and first responders and
Speaker 1: everyone who's keeping our society going. Thank you. In the meantime,
Speaker 1: I hope you've been listening to false confession experts Laura
Speaker 1: and I writer and Stege Risen as they enlighten all
Speaker 1: of us about how the hell so many people would
Speaker 1: ever admit to crimes that they didn't commit, And stay
Speaker 1: tuned for our new season of Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Speaker 1: Flam coming up in May. Next week, we're talking to
Speaker 1: the one and only Nick Yaris, and if you want
Speaker 1: to get a head start in his story, we released
Speaker 1: a two parter season nine, episode five that will blow
Speaker 1: your mind. So come back for more alternative perspective on
Speaker 1: living in the time of COVID from someone who's been
Speaker 1: to hell and back. Don't forget to give us a
Speaker 1: fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps.
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
Speaker 1: to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate
Speaker 1: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,
Speaker 1: Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Speaker 1: Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one